Why you're using EZA incorrectly and wasting your time.

by ArticlePrince 224 replies
First off, let me say that I have a fair bit of experience with article marketing and with EZA. Here's what a difference using EZA properly can be: in my first niche ever, I have 45 articles resulting in about 400 clicks. In the niche I did after that one, I wrote 7 articles and now have about 8k clicks. The difference?

I wrote articles, not backlinks. You know what I mean! I'm not saying that your article has to be 1000+ words (although the scrapers like them), but focus on writing a greating article, not on getting a keyword off of your to write list. Why was this powerful? They got moved to the most viewed of the category, which got me more views. They were used by others or linked to, which helped my sales. After all, we put dollars in the bank, not CTR. Instead of seeing how many articles you can write per day (I used to do 30!), write one great article.

I bet you'll get more traffic, more backlinks, and (depending on your site), more sales. Try it!
#main internet marketing discussion forum #eza #incorrectly #time #wasting
  • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
    I've had more success writing a straight up pre-sell article with absolutely ZERO information in it...those same articles have spent more than their share of time on the most viewed list...the most published list too

    What makes or breaks a campaign with EZA has absolutely ZERO to do with what kind of articles you write...

    In most cases it comes down to the NICHE and the amount of traffic your article gets from incoming searches to both your article and the category.

    Why do you think people do so well in niches like:

    Reverse cell phone
    Criminal background checks
    Relationships
    Weight loss
    Tinnitus
    Acne
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  • Profile picture of the author Jill Carpenter
    Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

    I've had more success writing a straight up pre-sell article with absolutely ZERO information in it...those same articles have spent more than their share of time on the most viewed list...the most published list too

    What makes or breaks a campaign with EZA has absolutely ZERO to do with what kind of articles you write...

    In most cases it comes down to the NICHE and the amount of traffic your article gets from incoming searches to both your article and the category.

    Why do you think people do so well in niches like:

    Reverse cell phone
    Criminal background checks
    Relationships
    Weight loss
    Tinnitus
    Acne
    Yes, I think this is one strategy and the other is to write for the purpose of syndication.

    They are two completely different ways to use Ezine. But I think both can work to ones benefit.
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    • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
      Originally Posted by Jill Carpenter View Post

      Yes, I think this is one strategy and the other is to write for the purpose of syndication.

      They are two completely different ways to use Ezine. But I think both can work to ones benefit.
      I'm going to be blunt here and say that I think 95% of the people that talk about writing for syndication are FULL OF ****...there I said it.

      If someone wants to show me some solid examples and results associated with it, I might be a believer, but in *most* cases, I think the argument for syndication is made simply to further a personal agenda and or belief with regards to how content should be used.

      Of course there are obviously people who do get content syndicated ( to places other than auto blogs) , but I think the folks that see any sort of big (relative) financial benefit from it are few...when we are talking about EZA.

      If someone can show me that they are pulling 400+ subscribers weekly or doing $100+ a day through content that has been syndicated as a result of it being posted on EZA...I might consider "switching teams"

      ...I'm fairly certain that my Jersey won't be changing any time soon though.

      If my objective was syndication, I would WRITE PRESS RELEASES and/or sign up for a service that would ensure that my content that was syndicated instead of playing a game of chance with EZA.

      EDIT:

      Originally Posted by Steve Faber View Post


      Anyway - It depends, but I've used EZA both ways. If I'm looking to build something long term, like an authority site, I'll try for syndication from as many good sites and blogs as possible. On the other hand, if I'm promoting an offer with a relatively short time horizon, I go for maximum views and CTR in the minimum amount of time.
      I completely agree with what you've written there...

      If you are involved in a subject or niche that you TRULY want to be seen as an authority in, then of course you would want to make sure that all of your content was on point, informative, and otherwise great.

      BUT...

      If you're rolling with a pen name promoting a product on clickbank where your only interest is cashing a check...Short articles with very little info to encourage click throughs are the way to go.
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      • Profile picture of the author Chris Worner
        Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

        If someone can show me that they are pulling 400+ subscribers weekly or doing $100+ a day through content that has been syndicated as a result of it being posted on EZA...I might consider "switching teams"

        ...I'm fairly certain that my Jersey won't be changing any time soon though.
        Hey Jeremy

        Wouldn't this be a pointless challenge since your mind is already made?

        Respectfully
        Chris
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        • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
          Originally Posted by Chris Worner View Post

          Hey Jeremy

          Wouldn't this be a pointless challenge since your mind is already made?

          Respectfully
          Chris
          If someone actually lays proof on the table....what I think doesn't really matter does it? hehe

          What I know is that I've searched out some names at EZA, and havn't really seen any visible proof of large scale syndication (that couldn't be achieved by anyone who wanted to manually submit or mass submit to the same sites). Obviously people are using pen names etc...so my research doesn't really prove much, but I figured that if one was writing to be syndicated that they would more times than not be doing so under their real name.

          Just to be clear here...I'm not saying that syndication doesn't work. I think that people like Alexa and Bill Platt have probably done very well with it (maybe?), I just think that writing to a standard where one can expect to get syndicated on some large authority type site that will provide them with credibility, traffic, opt-ins, and money is FAR out of reach for the majority of people who are doing article marketing...which makes it an unsustainable business model.

          It's kind of like going out to the bar...

          Sure, we all like to think that we are gods gift to women and want to leave with a 10 at the end of the night.

          BUT

          Most of us are middle aged, a bit over weight, and drunk by then, so we'll settle for a 6 or 7 because she provides instant gratification and is a sure thing.
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          • Profile picture of the author Chris Worner
            Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

            What I know is that I've searched out some names at EZA, and havn't really seen any visible proof of large scale syndication (that couldn't be achieved by anyone who wanted to manually submit or mass submit to the same sites). Obviously people are using pen names etc...so my research doesn't really prove much, but I figured that if one was writing to be syndicated that they would more times than not be doing so under their real name.
            Not necessarily, ultimately it would depend on the market your targeting. Say for example you were married but secretly into gay BDSM, would you write content for that market under your own name and risk getting exposed?(Extreme example I know but you get the picture)

            I just think that writing to a standard where one can expect to get syndicated on some large authority type site that will provide them with credibility, traffic, opt-ins, and money is FAR out of reach for the majority of people who are doing article marketing...which makes it an unsustainable business model.
            Writing informative content is the easy part, presenting it in an engaging, easy to read manner is something else. The problem lies with the person, not the business model.

            If you are not prepared to put in the time and effort required to become a really good writer then you only have yourself to blame.

            .................................................. ...........................................

            If you want your content syndicated you are going to have to do a lot more than just submit it to EZA. You actually have to make a concerted effort to go and seek out relevant webmasters, publishers etc. that may be interested in republishing your content and build a relationship with them.

            There are also many syndication service's like Bill plats that can help get your content in front of the right people as well.

            Chris
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            • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
              Originally Posted by Chris Worner View Post


              If you want your content syndicated you are going to have to do a lot more than just submit it to EZA. You actually have to make a concerted effort to go and seek out relevant webmasters, publishers etc. that may be interested in republishing your content and build a relationship with them.

              There are also many syndication service's like Bill plats that can help get your content in front of the right people as well.

              Chris
              That's kind of the point, Chris.

              If my model is syndication, I'm not going to jump through EZA's hoops to get syndicated when there are obvious, and not to mention more than likely better channels.

              Largely, EZA was, is, and will continue to be more times than not MORE PROFITABLE for the person who can play "middle of the road" and tap into the niches that EZA can consistently deliver more traffic to.
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              • Profile picture of the author Hamida Harland
                Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

                That's kind of the point, Chris.

                If my model is syndication, I'm not going to jump through EZA's hoops to get syndicated when there are obvious, and not to mention more than likely better channels.

                Largely, EZA was, is, and will continue to be more times than not MORE PROFITABLE for the person who can play "middle of the road" and tap into the niches that EZA can consistently deliver more traffic to.
                So true. I have alot of experience in writing both 'presell articles AND syndication articles. Although I do believe syndication has its place (in some niches more than others), I consistently get a much higher ROI from my presell articles.

                Not everyone is good at writing a quality presell article that gets ranked, gets clicks, and converts readers to subscribers. For this reason many have turned to syndication, believing it's the only way of doing things. I prefer to keep my options open.
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          • Profile picture of the author schttrj
            Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

            If someone actually lays proof on the table....what I think doesn't really matter does it? hehe

            What I know is that I've searched out some names at EZA, and havn't really seen any visible proof of large scale syndication (that couldn't be achieved by anyone who wanted to manually submit or mass submit to the same sites). Obviously people are using pen names etc...so my research doesn't really prove much, but I figured that if one was writing to be syndicated that they would more times than not be doing so under their real name.

            Just to be clear here...I'm not saying that syndication doesn't work. I think that people like Alexa and Bill Platt have probably done very well with it (maybe?), I just think that writing to a standard where one can expect to get syndicated on some large authority type site that will provide them with credibility, traffic, opt-ins, and money is FAR out of reach for the majority of people who are doing article marketing...which makes it an unsustainable business model.

            It's kind of like going out to the bar...

            Sure, we all like to think that we are gods gift to women and want to leave with a 10 at the end of the night.

            BUT

            Most of us are middle aged, a bit over weight, and drunk by then, so we'll settle for a 6 or 7 because she provides instant gratification and is a sure thing.
            Exactly, my point!

            I am NOT against anything here, BUT useless promotion WITHOUT ANY PROOF of any kind!

            Syndication does work...I have had a few (say, 5) articles among around 60 articles syndicated for around 20 times. But will I consider it as the main purpose in article marketing? NEVER! So, doing the math, if you write 2400 articles, you get 200 syndicated for around 800 times. That means 800 backlinks. Not bad, huh!

            Wait!

            To build 800 backlinks for syndicated articles, you are already creating 2400 backlinks through direct article directory submission. So, which stands as my main purpose for article marketing?

            Some people will say about the traffic and the PR value of other sites. Very few sites have over PR0 deep pages, and traffic only subsides over the time. And show me one QUALITY authority site that uses syndicated articles.

            Damn, man! You got to play the field. Know times are changing every second. Syndication is NOT the main purpose of article marketing.
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      • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
        Banned
        Originally Posted by Steve Faber View Post

        Where's Alexa on this???
        Keeping out, I think.

        Apart from this post, obviously enough, to explain that I'm keeping out.

        Once someone says that 95% of the people that talk about writing for syndication are "FULL OF ****", I start wondering which one (if any) out of Paul Uhl, Richard Van, DireStraits, "tpw", Allen Graves, Yourreviewer, "oneplusone", Chris Worner, John McCabe, Barry Unruh and so many others here who are so successfully writing for syndication (and openly discussing it to try to help and inform others here a little) that person doesn't think is "FULL OF ****".

        Let's be honest: saying that 95% of us are "FULL OF ****" is about as offensive as you can get within the forum's code of acceptable conduct (if indeed it is within the forum's code of acceptable conduct at all - but I think it probably is, just about).

        And the conversation has, at that point, become too stupid, too ill-informed and frankly too insulting for me to be willing to participate in it. Sorry.

        Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

        there I said it.
        According to the contents of my inbox today, that was both extremely unwise of you and highly offensive to many people here, Jeremy. No great surprise, though, that spontaneously calling people "FULL OF ****", collectively, even without the courage actually to name them, is going to offend them, I think?

        If you really believe that all or almost all of us are "FULL OF ****", your own forum is perhaps the place to say that - not this one.

        Shall we try to keep our behavior here professional, rather than abusive, Jeremy?
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        • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
          Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

          Keeping out, I think.

          Apart from this post, obviously enough, to explain that I'm keeping out.

          Once someone says that 95% of the people that talk about writing for syndication are "FULL OF ****", I start wondering which one (if any) out of Paul Uhl, Richard Van, DireStraits, "tpw", Allen Graves, Yourreviewer, "oneplusone", Chris Worner, John McCabe, Barry Unruh and so many others here who are so successfully writing for syndication (and openly discussing it to try to help and inform others here a little) that person doesn't think is "FULL OF ****".

          Let's be honest: saying that 95% of us are "FULL OF ****" is about as offensive as you can get within the forum's code of acceptable conduct (if indeed it is within the forum's code of acceptable conduct at all - but I think it probably is, just about).

          And the conversation has, at that point, become too stupid, too ill-informed and frankly too insulting for me to be willing to participate in it. Sorry.



          According to the contents of my inbox today, that was both extremely unwise of you and highly offensive to many people here, Jeremy. No great surprise, though, that spontaneously calling people "FULL OF ****", collectively, even without the courage actually to name them, is going to offend them, I think?

          If you really believe that all or almost all of us are "FULL OF ****", your own forum is perhaps the place to say that - not this one.

          Shall we try to keep our behavior here professional, rather than abusive, Jeremy?
          Alexa - the internet is a BIG place...and syndication is talked about in many places, by many people..

          If I were talking about any of the people that you mentioned, there is a good chance that I would have said their names...But, any of those folks are welcome to prove me wrong

          I'm pretty sure that I mentioned a COUPLE of those names (including yours) in one of my other posts in this thread as people that probably do well with syndication...

          Maybe you should read all of the posts?



          I also mentioned that in order for syndication to be viable, that the person would have to be able to write to a certain standard. Obviously, you are a little jumpy, but you can write well. Syndication isn't a bad model - EZA IS JUST A BAD PLACE TO FOCUS ON SYNDICATION (in my opinion)

          Believe it or not, your name isn't synonymous with syndication.
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      • Profile picture of the author Terry Hatfield
        Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

        I'm going to be blunt here and say that I think 95% of the people that talk about writing for syndication are FULL OF ****...there I said it.
        I second that.

        If you really want to syndicate your content contact quality sites directly and give them unique content.
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  • Profile picture of the author ArticlePrince
    Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill View Post

    You may be the most honest man on this forum. I've never understood why anyone would spend time and money writing and buying articles when you can buy targeted traffic for your offer.

    I'm missing something, I guess.
    Your roi can be higher for the articles if done correctly, and not everyone has the budget for buying traffic. Plus, sometimes those programs ban you :-)
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  • Profile picture of the author Steve Faber
    Where's Alexa on this???

    Anyway - It depends, but I've used EZA both ways. If I'm looking to build something long term, like an authority site, I'll try for syndication from as many good sites and blogs as possible. On the other hand, if I'm promoting an offer with a relatively short time horizon, I go for maximum views and CTR in the minimum amount of time.
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  • Profile picture of the author ArticlePrince
    Ha Alexa is waiting to see how wrong she can prove I am in some way :-P I'm not saying both ways don't work, but I don't see the point of a short term model. That being said, Jeremy has done WAY more of this than I have and he does fine with the shorter quick link articles, so obviously both can be used in a long term way.
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    • Profile picture of the author schttrj
      Originally Posted by ArticlePrince View Post

      Ha Alexa is waiting to see how wrong she can prove I am in some way :-P I'm not saying both ways don't work, but I don't see the point of a short term model. That being said, Jeremy has done WAY more of this than I have and he does fine with the shorter quick link articles, so obviously both can be used in a long term way.
      Well...I always believe, syndication is NOT the right way to go. Of course, that's one way it is "supposed" to work, BUT it hardly does. I have many of my friends steal articles from the article directories without the resource link. None of 'em get caught!

      Yes, you can rely on that. But it isn't worth it. But if you are trying to build links to your site, yes, that can work. Not to mention the clicks that you get from your articles.
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      • Profile picture of the author Chris Worner
        Originally Posted by schttrj View Post

        Well...I always believe, syndication is NOT the right way to go. Of course, that's one way it is "supposed" to work, BUT it hardly does.
        Reading your post I am not surprised you think that at all.

        I have many of my friends steal articles from the article directories without the resource link. None of 'em get caught!
        LMAO *facepalm*

        Yes, you can rely on that. But it isn't worth it. But if you are trying to build links to your site, yes, that can work. Not to mention the clicks that you get from your articles.
        oh my.....

        Chris
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        • Profile picture of the author AndrewHansen
          Just to add to this discussion:

          While I've never seen value in submitting some 800 word, "best content you can write" type article at EZA either, submitting short pre-sale type articles aint what it used to be either.

          Since the recent changes to their review process we are seeing articles rejected for all kinds of reasons, often that make no sense at all. It's not just the word limit either. They're particularly touchy with "salesyness" now, and starting to scrutinize what's actually in the content a whole lot more.

          This is of course significant to those who only publish at EZA, because it's adding time or money to your cost of using it as a place for submission over other directories.

          Have you guys noticed similar issues submitting pre-sale type articles since the changes?

          Andrew
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          • Profile picture of the author Hamida Harland
            Originally Posted by AndrewHansen View Post


            While I've never seen value in submitting some 800 word, "best content you can write" type article at EZA either, submitting short pre-sale type articles aint what it used to be either.
            Agreed (and I don't submit my best content to EZA either). I've really cut down on what I submit to article directories and I'm submitting ALOT more to my own sites instead.

            I really found since the Google Farmer update my own sites have shot up the ranks, whereas I've seen quite a few of my EZA articles go the opposite direction. Of course this is a good thing, so I'm definitely not complaining!
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        • Profile picture of the author schttrj
          Originally Posted by Chris Worner View Post

          Reading your post I am not surprised you think that at all.



          LMAO *facepalm*



          oh my.....

          Chris
          And hey Chris, that was really funny and highly ignorant of you!!!
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      • Profile picture of the author Wayne OS
        Originally Posted by schttrj View Post

        I have many of my friends steal articles from the article directories without the resource link. None of 'em get caught!

        Yes, you can rely on that. But it isn't worth it. But if you are trying to build links to your site, yes, that can work. Not to mention the clicks that you get from your articles.
        To be honest this is what puts me off writing articles, yeah sure you can get backlinks and maybe some traffic (that actually converts?) into sales but the amount of time your article gets republished on autoblogs and other sites without intact resource links to me is more like doing all the hard work so someone else can profit...

        Yes, EZA articles ranks well (even after the supposed Google update) but all the hoops you need to jump through so they can profit from your articles adsense is a party killer imo. I aint no show dog having to run the obstacle course.

        Some may think this is short sighted but I will rather continue keeping as much of the original content on my site and write content rather for press releases and blog posts... and build links in other ways...

        Just my 2 cents...
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  • Profile picture of the author ArticlePrince
    I definitely think that WAY less people successfully get syndicated, but for me at least its just easier. I only have to write one article or so a day, then Im done. But it is more difficult to screw up massive submissions, so I see why people do them. And again Jeremy, you've been doing this longer than I have, so if I was started from scratch I'd do your model before mine (I started writing tons of articles for my sites)
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    • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
      Originally Posted by ArticlePrince View Post

      I definitely think that WAY less people successfully get syndicated, but for me at least its just easier. I only have to write one article or so a day, then Im done. But it is more difficult to screw up massive submissions, so I see why people do them. And again Jeremy, you've been doing this longer than I have, so if I was started from scratch I'd do your model before mine (I started writing tons of articles for my sites)
      Good stuff

      Can you show us a couple articles that were posted to EZA and successfully syndicated to sites that provided you a decent amount of traffic?
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  • Profile picture of the author Wills
    Interesting discussion. I personally write different types of articles, depending on the purpose of each article. But the larger articles bring me the best results, in terms of traffic and actually getting read (which is my main aim of any article I write).

    Jeremy brings up some good points though and I agree with a lot of it. I'll admit I haven't had huge success with syndication, so for that reason, I do not praise it that much.

    But hey, nobody gets everything right the first time they try, right.
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  • Profile picture of the author enderZ
    It all depends on your goal. If your main purpose is syndication then EZA won't be an effective method, unless you believe in luck.

    I also don't think that "writing a great" article is the way to go if you want traffic (unless again you believe in luck).

    The ONLY method is going the "holistic" way:
    1. Market research
    2. Keyword research
    3. Writing a great article based on 1+2
    4. Submitting to high trafficated site (not necessarily EZA)
    5. Actively announcing about in the relevant blog sphere/related forums etc.

    That way it will get traffic, syndication and all the love it deserves.
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    • Profile picture of the author KatyaSenina
      I guess you're right. Writing 10 or more keyword optimized articles a day, for example, is just crazy. Not only is it just plain boring, but it's next to impossible. It won't turn out great articles anyway.

      And again, the importance of article syndication is huge.
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    • Profile picture of the author LandoFormosa
      Originally Posted by enderZ View Post

      It all depends on your goal. If your main purpose is syndication then EZA won't be an effective method, unless you believe in luck.

      I also don't think that "writing a great" article is the way to go if you want traffic (unless again you believe in luck).

      The ONLY method is going the "holistic" way:
      1. Market research
      2. Keyword research
      3. Writing a great article based on 1+2
      4. Submitting to high trafficated site (not necessarily EZA)
      5. Actively announcing about in the relevant blog sphere/related forums etc.

      That way it will get traffic, syndication and all the love it deserves.
      Could not agree more... And the problem with most articles is always 1 and 2, not the content and the quality of the articles. These can always be refined, but if you go wrong on 1 and 2 nothing can save you from falling.
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  • Profile picture of the author Rod Cortez
    < Grabs popcorn, a brewsky, and 3-D glasses> :rolleyes:

    RoD
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    • Profile picture of the author Chris Worner
      Originally Posted by Rod Cortez View Post

      < Grabs popcorn, a brewsky, and 3-D glasses> :rolleyes:

      RoD


      Chris
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      • Profile picture of the author Dave Rodman
        Banned
        I also mentioned that in order for syndication to be viable, that the person would have to be able to write to a certain standard. Obviously, you are a little jumpy, but you can write well. Syndication isn't a bad model - EZA IS JUST A BAD PLACE TO FOCUS ON SYNDICATION (in my opinion)
        I have had my fair share of scuffles with the "Article Syndication Syndicate" who, for the most part, poke fun at "Article Directory Marketers" and look at Syndication as the golden road that leads to internet success.

        I syndicate my content to other websites, but the effectiveness varies with each niche. I can use the same approach and it works with some niches, and sucks with others. To me, I'm more concerned about the relationship with the other site owner...much more valuable than sticking up some article on their site.
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        • Profile picture of the author zerofill
          Anyone that lays their financial future on EZA articles being syndicated... All I can say is... your in trouble lol.

          You know what EZA is? It is a place for direct traffic to a redirect for me...

          The backlinks from it are useless if that is what your main goal is from it.

          The only thing your article is going to be syndicated to 99.9% of the time is an autoblog from places like EZA. Which in most cases is useless because very few people know how to get autoblogs to rank for anything.

          If I was looking to syndicate content I would be writing press releases, trying to get content published to actual real news streams, and building relationships with site owners with high traffic sites.

          If you can get into a loop of successful content syndication it is great for brand/product awareness, etc...

          It is not really for affiliate marketing, CPA marketing, etc... For affiliate marketing there is much less extensive work needed to be successful then spending all day forming relationships with site owners and trying to get published at an actual news source.

          In the past all our articles we submit to directories we have always considered canon fodder... Why? Because we consider some article directories as direct traffic sources and that is it. I could care less about them for a backlink, or anything else other than direct traffic from an article that gives no info but pushes people to click the link to get more info.

          If I was going to spend the time to actually write good articles... the last place they would be published is article directories to be honest.
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          • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
            Banned
            Sigh.

            As ever, I agree with some of what Don says but not his conclusions from it at all.

            Originally Posted by zerofill View Post

            Anyone that lays their financial future on EZA articles being syndicated... All I can say is... your in trouble lol.
            Nobody's suggesting that one should rely on that alone to build a real business.

            All that can be said in favour of relying on that is that it's a whole lot better than relying on article directories for their own traffic and/or for their own backlinks.

            Originally Posted by zerofill View Post

            The only thing your article is going to be syndicated to 99.9% of the time is an autoblog from places like EZA.
            My experience is radically different.

            Most of the people (i.e. more than 50%) who have decent authority sites that regularly syndicate my content now are people I originally found because they syndicated my content from EZA.

            And reading the article marketing threads here tells me that I'm by no means alone in that.

            Originally Posted by zerofill View Post

            If you can get into a loop of successful content syndication it is great for brand/product awareness, etc...
            Indeed. And for "branding yourself" awareness, if you know what I mean, too.

            Originally Posted by zerofill View Post

            It is not really for affiliate marketing
            It's extremely useful, for affiliate marketing, for some of us.

            Originally Posted by zerofill View Post

            If I was going to spend the time to actually write good articles... the last place they would be published is article directories to be honest.
            Absolutely - article directories are the last place mine are published: they go on my own sites first and get indexed there; then they go everywhere else (contacting site-owners directly and all the other things one does) apart from article directories; and then (i.e. "last") they go to article directories.

            Ok, not quite "last", because I almost invariably get further syndication from there to some places I haven't already reached (which is why I'm still bothering with them, of course: it grows my business). "Last-but-one", if you like.

            Like so many successful "syndicator article marketers" here, I'm using article directories only as a way of getting beyond article directories to some places I haven't yet reached before using article directories. But hey ... I've only been saying that for two years.

            It works.
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            • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
              Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post


              It's extremely useful, for affiliate marketing, for some of us.
              I think that sentence can sum up the whole debate....especially the part that I put in bold, underlined, italicized, and colored.

              Syndication isn't gospel, but the way some of these threads go, it's obvious that in many occasions it gets put on a pedestal as not only the "right way", but the only way to do it "right".

              Which just isn't true...if right is determined by results that are calculated by traffic and profit.
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            • Profile picture of the author glennda
              Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

              Sigh.

              As ever, I agree with some of what Don says but not his conclusions from it at all.



              Nobody's suggesting that one should rely on that alone to build a real business.

              All that can be said in favour of relying on that is that it's a whole lot better than relying on article directories for their own traffic and/or for their own backlinks.



              My experience is radically different.

              Most of the people (i.e. more than 50%) who have decent authority sites that regularly syndicate my content now are people I originally found because they syndicated my content from EZA.

              And reading the article marketing threads here tells me that I'm by no means alone in that.



              Indeed. And for "branding yourself" awareness, if you know what I mean, too.



              It's extremely useful, for affiliate marketing, for some of us.



              Absolutely - article directories are the last place mine are published: they go on my own sites first and get indexed there; then they go everywhere else (contacting site-owners directly and all the other things one does) apart from article directories; and then (i.e. "last") they go to article directories.

              Ok, not quite "last", because I almost invariably get further syndication from there to some places I haven't already reached (which is why I'm still bothering with them, of course: it grows my business). "Last-but-one", if you like.

              Like so many successful "syndicator article marketers" here, I'm using article directories only as a way of getting beyond article directories to some places I haven't yet reached before using article directories. But hey ... I've only been saying that for two years.

              It works.
              Absolutely - article directories are the last place mine are published: they go on my own sites first and get indexed there; then they go everywhere else (contacting site-owners directly and all the other things one does) apart from article directories; and then (i.e. "last") they go to article directories.


              Alexa, please explain to me how and why I would be contacting site-owners directly? How does this work for me and the site owner please. For example I am a distributor for essential oils. Let's just say there is a high ranking site that talks about using natural products. How do I approach them about my oils...how does this work please and thank you. Or just point me in the right direction :-)
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        • Profile picture of the author DireStraits
          Originally Posted by Dave Rodman View Post

          I have had my fair share of scuffles with the "Article Syndication Syndicate" who, for the most part, poke fun at "Article Directory Marketers" and look at Syndication as the golden road that leads to internet success.
          No-one "pokes fun" at article directory marketers, Dave. We simply make the distinction between that and article syndication (which, arguably, is more deserving of the traditional "article marketing" label, since this is the practice it would traditionally describe before "leveraging other sites' SEO authority for easier rankings" became so wildly popular).

          Originally Posted by Dave Rodman View Post

          To me, I'm more concerned about the relationship with the other site owner...much more valuable than sticking up some article on their site.
          Relationships are important, of course, Dave, but what's the point in having them unless you do something with them? There's little point in me building a relationship with another site's owner unless I then take advantage of it in some way, such as by giving them my articles to republish so that I can harness referral-traffic from their site. (Which, incidentally, is how I would usually go about building that relationship in the first place). :p

          For me, I don't speak negatively of article directory marketing because I believe its a completely fruitless endeavour. I appreciate that people make money from it. I just struggle to justify labelling it "article marketing", and see it as being a comparatively risky and insecure model. And recent events such as the Panda algorithm update, which somewhat diminished the "easy rankings" value of many of these sites, just goes to further solidify that notion, I think.

          A big point made by many who write for and engage in article syndication is that it's more of an asset-based business model, as opposed to the rinse and repeat job that article directory marketing usually and somewhat inevitably commands of you.

          That's all. A mere case of wanting to assign a more appropriate label to each so as to avoid ambiguity, and also so that the benefits, pitfalls and general nuances of each model can be more readily highlighted, and more easily digested, in discussions.
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          • Profile picture of the author Dave Rodman
            Banned
            A big point made by many who write for and engage in article syndication is that it's more of an asset-based business model, as opposed to the rinse and repeat job that article directory marketing usually and somewhat inevitably commands of you.
            Maybe you haven't, but it's pretty common to see people in those threads poking fun at people htat just market through directories. And usually it's in the context of "They still don't get it!! Syndication is the answer".

            To your point above, I don't really agree. Article syndication is not a business model, asset based or otherwise. SEO might yield me better results than social media, but it doesn't make SEO my business model. You might say Article Syndication tends to give you results that last much longer than Article Marketing.

            But seriously, I rarely hear people who post about syndication talk about the larger part of their business. I don't even know what their business is.
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            • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
              Originally Posted by Dave Rodman View Post

              Maybe you haven't, but it's pretty common to see people in those threads poking fun at people htat just market through directories. And usually it's in the context of "They still don't get it!! Syndication is the answer".

              To your point above, I don't really agree. Article syndication is not a business model, asset based or otherwise. SEO might yield me better results than social media, but it doesn't make SEO my business model. You might say Article Syndication tends to give you results that last much longer than Article Marketing.

              But seriously, I rarely hear people who post about syndication talk about the larger part of their business. I don't even know what their business is.
              Not to mention, when getting syndicated from a site like EZA, does one really have any more of an asset than say the person slamming 10 articles a day into the directory, if traffic results are close to the same?

              I'd say no. In each case, both rely on a third party site to not only stay "open", but to keep content intact and live.

              Results have repeatedly been shown using EZA as a direct traffic vehicle...Now that some syndicators are in the house, maybe we can get some sort of proof or validation for the other side of the coin?

              What I'm personally interested in is if they regularly see syndication to sites that I can't otherwise submit and publish content to without EZA being the middle man, and whether or not EZA's TOS hinders their results in anyway due to the fact that publishers are only allowed 25 reprints per year...from what I understand...I'm not an expert on EZA's TOS....so, I could be wrong.
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              • Profile picture of the author DireStraits
                Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

                Not to mention, when getting syndicated from a site like EZA, does one really have any more of an asset than say the person slamming 10 articles a day into the directory?

                I'd say no. In each case, both rely on a third party site to not only stay "open", but to keep content intact and live.
                One doesn't rely on EZA or other directories for syndication, though, Jeremy. Sure, such directories can facilitate some "passive syndication", but one will normally always go out there and contact site owners directly, too, and promote/submit one's articles to them that way.

                In that case, EZA often becomes little more than a convenient portfolio of one's work, where the articles are pre-formatted in a way that makes them all ready for republication (whereas, of course, the same articles on your own site would not be, since they won't have your resource-box links, etc).

                And it's about diversification of one's traffic sources. One article that generates referral-traffic from 20 different sites on which it is published is inherently "safer" than 20 articles reliant on harnessing traffic through the search-engine ranking potential of the small number of directories (or from the same single one) on which they reside, no? And it usually is a small number, because 99% of directories are no good for this "bum marketing" style of approach, anyway: EZA, Articles Base, GoArticles and maybe a small handful of others, but that's about it. The rest make your articles no easier to rank than if you were attempting to do it on your own site. (And I'd now even question the usefulness of those I've just mentioned, in light of recent algorithmic changes at Google).
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                • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
                  Originally Posted by DireStraits View Post

                  One doesn't rely on EZA or other directories for syndication, though, Jeremy. Sure, such directories can facilitate some "passive syndication", but one will normally always go out there and contact site owners directly, too, and promote one's articles to them directly.
                  Absolutely. My "bone of contention" is when syndication is harped about when talking about EZA specifically. Obviously syndication is a GOOD thing for anyone that takes pride in their writing and aspires to have their content included on authoritative or niche specific websites for either traffic or credibility reasons.

                  Originally Posted by DireStraits View Post

                  In that case, EZA often becomes little more than a convenient portfolio of one's work, where the articles are pre-formatted in a way that makes them all ready for republication (whereas, of course, the same articles on your own site would not be, since they won't have your resource-box links, etc).
                  Again, absolutely.

                  My viewpoint is that EZA is better as a direct traffic source, and therefore one would be better off making sure their content was optimized for Click Throughs and profit, instead of hoping and praying that a publisher out there is going to use one of his 25 reprints a year to publish your content on his site.

                  Originally Posted by DireStraits View Post

                  And it's about diversification of one's traffic sources. One article that generates referral-traffic from 20 different sites on which it is published is inherently "safer" than 20 articles reliant on harnessing traffic through the search-engine ranking potential of the small number of directories (or from the same single one) on which they reside, no? And it usually is a small number, because 99% of directories are no good for this "bum marketing" style of approach, anyway: EZA, Articles Base, GoArticles and maybe a small handful of others, but that's about it. The rest make your articles no easier to rank than if you were attempting to do it on your own site. (And I'd now even question the usefulness of those I've just mentioned, in light of recent algorithmic changes at Google).
                  Again...Again, Absolutely! (for the most part!)

                  Diversifying your traffic is VERY important, which is why for me, the way to go is to focus your efforts on what EZA is good at...getting direct traffic.

                  If you want your content syndicated, it seems that it would be more productive to contact site owners directly, or to utilize services such as Bill Platts, so that syndication is pretty much guaranteed...Instead of optimizing content for syndication on a directory where syndication might happen...and missing out on an opportunity to effectively pre-sell potential visitors.
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              • Profile picture of the author myob
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                • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
                  Originally Posted by myob View Post

                  This is the crux at which so many here misunderstand about the concept of syndication. When you're slamming articles into the directories for the traffic thinking this is "article marketing", you are not building anything sustainable.
                  Not true. I've got articles that I slammed into EZA 2 years ago, bringing me traffic and earning me money today, sitting on the first page of not only Google, but in some cases Yahoo! and Bing as well.

                  Originally Posted by myob View Post

                  But syndication is the highest form of article marketing. Submitting quality, marketable articles to EZA and perhaps a few other top article directories is the beginning of this process. Look beyond the article directories when writing articles.
                  In a perfect world, i would agree with you for sure.

                  The point that I'm trying to get at is that if you are going for syndication, there are easier, better, and probably more profitable ways to do it than to hope and pray that a site owner uses up one of his 25 reprints (for a single site) on you...let alone multiple reprints from regular articles you are submitting.


                  Originally Posted by myob View Post

                  Having syndicated outlets for your articles are valuable assets, no less real or unordinary than retail chainstores. The reach of a few articles are not just a multiple of the number of published outlets, but an exponential factor of targeted readers in each of the outlets.
                  ...but you don't need EzineAricles for the syndication. I personally choose to use EZA for what they've proven to ME that they are good at - DELIVERING DIRECT TRAFFIC and RANKING IN THE SERPS.

                  If you or anyone else has had a different experience, that's awesome. However, too many times the conversation tends to go in the direction of a "syndicator" trying to tell someone who uses EZA for direct traffic, that they are doing it wrong...which isn't true.


                  Originally Posted by myob View Post

                  Do the math, as Ron says. Ok, I have 24,000 outlets for my articles including ezine publishers, websites, blogs, and offline publications such as trade journals, magazines, newspapers, etc. Some of these publications have circulation approaching a million readers. This is the exponential power of syndication.
                  Anyone here can syndicate their content to thousands of sites, without EZA. However, there aren't many directories that deliver the direct traffic that EZA does, which is kind of the crux of the argument?

                  Is it wrong to submit multiple articles rapidly to get direct traffic? No.

                  Is it wrong to submit articles in hopes of syndication? No.

                  In the end it comes down to individual STRATEGY and RESULTS.

                  I've said a few times in this thread...and I'll say it again...I believe syndication is a great way to spread the word about yourself, your promotions, and your brand, but I personally think that EZA is more of a sure bet for direct traffic.
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              • Profile picture of the author tpw
                Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

                Originally Posted by Dave Rodman View Post

                But seriously, I rarely hear people who post about syndication talk about the larger part of their business. I don't even know what their business is.

                Not to mention, when getting syndicated from a site like EZA, does one really have any more of an asset than say the person slamming 10 articles a day into the directory, if traffic results are close to the same?

                I'd say no. In each case, both rely on a third party site to not only stay "open", but to keep content intact and live.

                Results have repeatedly been shown using EZA as a direct traffic vehicle...Now that some syndicators are in the house, maybe we can get some sort of proof or validation for the other side of the coin?

                What I'm personally interested in is if they regularly see syndication to sites that I can't otherwise submit and publish content to without EZA being the middle man, and whether or not EZA's TOS hinders their results in anyway due to the fact that publishers are only allowed 25 reprints per year...from what I understand...I'm not an expert on EZA's TOS....so, I could be wrong.

                Hey Guys... Good to see the both of you contributing to this discussion.

                First to Dave's point:

                Article marketing is simply one more marketing tool.

                Article syndication is simply a strategy that provides a lot of potential to the article marketing tool.

                Getting published in a directory does not offer me the same bang for the buck that syndication to high-traffic websites and high subscriber-count newsletters bring. Getting syndicated to a website with a lot of traffic or a newsletter with lots of active subscribers brings with syndication a huge opportunity to see a huge reward for the work we have done.

                Paid advertising by far is more consistent and reliable than article marketing.

                Yet, article marketing brings with it the possibility of delivering a lifetime worth of high-quality advertising for the cost of writing and distributing the article.

                When you write for the approval of an article directory, the bar is actually pretty low.

                When you write for the approval of a publisher who might syndicate your content, the bar is quite a bit higher.

                When I write an article, I always strive to get syndicated. If my article fails to achieve syndication in high-value websites and newsletters, I consider my article a failure.

                What I may consider a failure, many more people will consider the pinnacle of their success. Different strokes for different folks.

                If my article fails to reach the goals I have set for it, then I am left with only those benefits that "article directory marketers" profess:
                • a back link that may or may not have value in Google;
                • an article that "might" get some placement within Google;
                • an article that could generate a decent amount of Click-through Traffic (CTR) on the smaller volume of traffic that an article directory will create for the article.

                The business model that we use is not relevant to the discussion, because article marketing is simply a tool, and article syndication is a strategy used for our article marketing.

                Article marketing, with or without article syndication, is only one marketing tool that I use in my marketing strategy.

                My business is not defined by my marketing strategy, just as your business could never be defined by your marketing strategy either.


                To Jeremy's point:

                Article syndication truly is a marketing strategy that relies on a third-party to be effective.

                In order for article syndication to be truly productive, you must lead with content worthy of syndication, and your article must be found by those people who we want to syndicate our content.

                When you utilize syndication as part of your strategy, there are many places in which the process can and will fail.

                My view is that if you want certainty, pay for your advertising.

                But, if you are willing to roll the dice on the big payoff that article marketing with syndication can deliver, then mosey up to the table and roll the dice!

                You can never win that huge jackpot if you remain afraid to gamble on the outcome and throw the dice.

                If you are happy with smaller rewards, then "article directory marketing" can provide those kinds of results for you. And if that is your marketing model, then more power to you.

                But I like to win big, so I am willing to gamble on huge results. Therefore, I take more time to make sure that the articles I write reach the goals that I want for them: publication in major websites and publication in newsletters with huge subscriber lists.

                But as I have said before: article marketing is just one tool in my marketing arsenal.

                I do a lot of paid advertising to keep the steady stream of traffic moving my way. And when I employ article marketing in my marketing campaigns, I invest more into those projects, with the hope that I can win big in the article syndication game.

                Honestly, I don't believe that you and I are that much different. We both employ a lot of marketing tools in our businesses, and we don't get wrapped up too much in one marketing model. We throw a lot of stuff against the wall and some of it sticks.

                The only real difference I see between you and I is that I am willing to invest more into my content creation, because I am willing to gamble more resources to win big in the article syndication game.

                As to EZA, I don't rely on it, nor do I use it often.

                My view is that pushing articles into an article directory is a "passive" means of marketing an article. I call it "passive" marketing, because you put the article into the directory, then wait, hope and pray that someone will find your article and syndicate it.

                I prefer a more "active" means of marketing an article. Instead of waiting for people to find my article, I want to go directly to the people most likely to publish my article and to offer it to them directly. I find that in doing so, my chances of seeing my article syndicated to a prime location is greatly increased. :p


                I think the greatest hindrance in EZA's TOS is not the "25 reprints per year", because I don't think publishers actually follow that guideline.

                Instead, I think the greatest hindrance in EZA's TOS is that they have editors who don't really understand what makes it possible to get good syndication on the article. They have so many rules in their Editor's Guide Book that go against what I know to be effective in my business.

                An interesting example is this article that I could not get EZA to approve... It was an article titled, "The Six Degrees of Internet Marketing", based on the scientific concept of the "Six Degrees of Separation". The article even explained that in its very first paragraph.

                The reason that article would not pass the EZA TOS is because I used the number "6" in its title, but did not have a 6-point bullet point inside of the article!!!!

                When EZA hires editors who cannot extrapolate the greater meaning of the words used in the title of the article, then EZA is always going to be a hindrance to my article marketing campaigns. :p

                That particular article syndicated well, and was a success for me in that it found publication on many power websites and large-audience newsletters.

                Given the experience of EZA with "The Six Degrees of Internet Marketing", all I can say is:

                "Thank God I do not rely on EZA for my article syndication."

                Signature
                Bill Platt, Oklahoma USA, PlattPublishing.com
                Publish Coloring Books for Profit (WSOTD 7-30-2015)
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                • Profile picture of the author Dave Rodman
                  Banned
                  Yeah, I get the approach. I'm against dogmatic approaches and "one size fits all" suggestions. In the Article Syndication Syndicate, there's always the mentality of "you're doing it wrong" if you try the directory approach. And if you think syndication doesn't work in some cases, "you're doing it wrong". Most of the time people aren't discussing the niche or what approach might work best for that niche....it's a blanket recommendation that syndication is best. It's like a doctor recommending antibiotics for a fever without taking anything else into consideration.

                  It's just interesting cause that's not the approach that you'll generally see in the WF. If you said your emails weren't converting and asked what day of the week is best for conversion, nobody would just flatly say "Tuesday". They'd say, "for me, it's tuesday, but you should find out for yourself".

                  Now take a guy like Tom Venuto who wrote the top clickbank ebook, "Burn the fat, feed the muscle". That dude can practically mint money with writing articles and having them syndicated. But he's a great writer, he's got a great (and high converting product), he's got upsells, and there are TONS of sites in that niche. That's not always the situation. Even if you're a great writer, your niche might not be as conducive to syndication.
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                  • Profile picture of the author myob
                    @Dave

                    Are you using an article spinner for your posts?
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                  • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
                    Banned
                    [DELETED]
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                    • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
                      Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

                      Oops ... you seem to have given as an example one of the most classic instances of widespread syndication there is online.

                      Maybe it is slightly niche-dependent, even though I've certainly never been aware of it, in any of the 8 entirely unrelated niches in which I use it myself, nor have I ever heard anyone else suggest it. Not easy to imagine why it might be, I must say, but an interesting suggestion nevertheless.
                      Alexa, I agree with you as far as general consumer niches go.

                      I can imagine niches where simply writing well would not gain entry. There are medical niches (not "health", medical) where you need a certain set of alphabet soup after your name to stand a chance of publication in the more desirable sites and publications. The same goes for some technical fields, where your market audience is made up of professionals. The alphabet soup is your ticket to get in the game.

                      I can also imagine some very tiny niches where there are a very few "authorities" and if you aren't one of them, your goose isn't cooked - it will never even see the oven.

                      On the whole, though, any consumer niche with blogs, newsletters, curated websites and print/multimedia publications will offer opportunities for syndication.
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                      • Profile picture of the author myob
                        I have found that the most competitive (and lucrative) niches respond especially well to syndication. Recently all of my sites have been dramatically surging upwards in SERPS, but still nowhere close enough to compete with the obviously heavily financed SEO professionals. The majority of my sales is a direct result of strategic article syndication, and I'm consistently getting a nice chunk of change from these niches (including selling medical equipment and products for dozens of other highly specialized professionals, BTW). All I do is basically write articles, and Amazon does everything else.
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                        • Profile picture of the author Chris Worner
                          Originally Posted by myob View Post

                          I'm consistently getting a nice chunk of change from these niches (including selling medical equipment and products for dozens of other highly specialized professionals, BTW). All I do is basically write articles, and Amazon does everything else.
                          You are a genius sir. It has never occurred to me to promote high ticket tangible goods through syndication. I think I shall start promoting Rolex watches.

                          Cheers
                          Chris
                          Signature

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                    • Profile picture of the author Dave Rodman
                      Banned
                      Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

                      Maybe it is slightly niche-dependent, even though I've certainly never been aware of it, in any of the 8 entirely unrelated niches in which I use it myself, nor have I ever heard anyone else suggest it. Not easy to imagine why it might be, I must say, but an interesting suggestion nevertheless.
                      Of course it's niche dependent. Tom Venuto's articles on fat loss get way more play than his articles more specific to bodybuilding. He's the same writer, writing on the same topic, but he's getting different responses. And fitness is a HUGE niche....take it down to something more refined and success with syndication starts to drop like a rock. And that's essentially within the same niche.
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                      • Profile picture of the author myob
                        Yawn .... ho hum.
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                      • Profile picture of the author DireStraits
                        Originally Posted by NY1 View Post

                        Exactly. I'll give another niche where syndicated article marketing is not effective:

                        ex back

                        No legit, popular mainstream blog/site syndicates those kind of articles.
                        Maybe so, but why would you want to promote these kinds of products, anyway?

                        This is not "niche-dependent" inasmuch as it is honest, ethical people not wanting to sell or otherwise be involved with what is essentially a crappy, scammy, dishonest product/niche and/or rubbish information that seldom if ever "works" and has no relevance except to silly, gullible or emotionally-fragile people.

                        I'm pretty sure it wouldn't work too well for something like "natural cancer cures", either, but that's because no-one with an ounce of integrity (or sanity, if they knew of the potential legal consequences and so on) would ever want to be associated with such nonsense. :p

                        So long as the products you're selling/promoting are useful and serve a real purpose, and the information in the articles you're using to drive this traffic is also useful and relevant, then I don't see that you'd have much trouble getting your articles syndicated and republished anywhere where it'd be of interest to a real audience with real, solvable problems - not just silly people who are easy to take advantage of. :p
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                        • Profile picture of the author Martin Luxton
                          Originally Posted by DireStraits View Post

                          I'm pretty sure it wouldn't work too well for something like "natural cancer cures", either, but that's because no-one with an ounce of integrity (or sanity, if they knew of the potential legal consequences and so on) would ever want to be associated with such nonsense. :p
                          Michael,

                          Interesting take on natural cancer cures. You've just highlighted one of the problems with this thread - alienation.

                          Jeremy's 95% B.S. comment raised the hackles of one group.

                          I guess you'll have to add me to a different group who are without "an ounce of integrity".

                          Because, due to the nature of the article marketing business, people can't/won't post empirical proof, those who don't have the statistics to make a decision are looking at who here seems to be putting forward the most logical and balanced arguments.

                          As I find your natural cancer cures comment horribly ill-informed (though I agree with the bit about the legal minefield), how much does that undermine my view of you as an authority in other areas (be it a reasoned or emotional response)?


                          Martin
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                          • Profile picture of the author DireStraits
                            Originally Posted by Martin Luxton View Post

                            Michael,

                            Interesting take on natural cancer cures. You've just highlighted one of the problems with this thread - alienation.

                            Jeremy's 95% B.S. comment raised the hackles of one group.

                            I guess you'll have to add me to a different group who are without "an ounce of integrity".

                            Because, due to the nature of the article marketing business, people can't/won't post empirical proof, those who don't have the statistics to make a decision are looking at who here seems to be putting forward the most logical and balanced arguments.

                            As I find your natural cancer cures comment horribly ill-informed (though I agree with the bit about the legal minefield), how much does that undermine my view of you as an authority in other areas (be it a reasoned or emotional response)?


                            Martin
                            Martin,

                            "Natural cancer cures" was a "niche" I put forward as an admittedly far-fetched example to highlight my point. The point being that if your whole niche is built on shaky ground, then it's not surprising that your options will be limited insofar as your being successful at having your articles syndicated to quality websites/newsletters/publications.

                            What is the problem you have with this example? You don't like the point I was trying to make, or you don't like the fact I've just spoken in a negative, derogatory way about "natural cancer cures" and those involved in promoting them?

                            Forgive me, because as much as I don't like making accusations - and I'm not here to "alienate" anyone - this would be one instance in which I'd have no qualms in casting aspersions on those involved with the selling of such "cures", because no such "cures" exist as far as I'm aware. Therefore anyone promoting such products as cures, and potentially discouraging a sufferer from seeking appropriate medical attention/treatment, would be acting unethically. I'm sorry, but I don't think there are any two ways about that? :confused:

                            Forgive me if I've entirely missed the point, here. :p
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                            • Profile picture of the author Martin Luxton
                              Originally Posted by DireStraits View Post

                              Martin,

                              Forgive me, because as much as I don't like making accusations - and I'm not here to "alienate" anyone - this would be one instance in which I'd have no problems in aspersions on those involved with the selling of such "cures", because no such "cures" exist as far as I'm aware. Therefore anyone promoting such products as cures, and potentially discouraging a sufferer from seeking appropriate medical attention/treatment, would be acting unethically. I'm sorry, but I don't think there's any two ways about that? :confused:

                              Forgive me if I've entirely missed the point, here. :p
                              Michael,

                              Not wanting to derail the thread so let's just say there are a lot of people (including doctors) who would disagree with your assertions. On the other hand, I can see how the Clickbankisation of alternative medicine can lead to people labeling the whole area as a scamfest.

                              My point was mainly about whether, in the end, this thread is useful. Does it merely serve to entrench existing attitudes or has it furthered the understanding of the readers?


                              Martin
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                              • Profile picture of the author Roaddog
                                Originally Posted by Martin Luxton View Post

                                Michael,

                                Not wanting to derail the thread so let's just say there are a lot of people (including doctors) who would disagree with your assertions. On the other hand, I can see how the Clickbankisation of alternative medicine can lead to people labeling the whole area as a scamfest.

                                My point was mainly about whether, in the end, this thread is useful. Does it merely serve to entrench existing attitudes or has it furthered the understanding of the readers?


                                Martin

                                I learn a lot from these threads

                                As neither a good writer nor a great article marketer,
                                I take in the best of all the pros and cons.

                                I learn more from these type of threads, than any 2 ebooks combined.

                                The only reason I don't thank everyone involved is I don't want to run out of thanks and appear to be taking "a side"

                                So Thanks everyone.

                                Now shake hands and...ding...ding
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                        • Profile picture of the author bretski
                          Originally Posted by DireStraits View Post

                          Maybe so, but why would you want to promote these kinds of products, anyway?
                          Dude... really? It is a profitable niche that actually helps people. That's why I promote these kinds of products.
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                      • Profile picture of the author Chris Worner
                        Originally Posted by NY1 View Post

                        Exactly. I'll give another niche where syndicated article marketing is not effective:

                        ex back

                        No legit, popular mainstream blog/site syndicates those kind of articles.

                        The only ones that syndicate are CB affiliate blogs, 99% of whom all have the MOMU banner somewhere on their site.
                        Lol, maybe because the ones you typically see on EZA are written by those who are following the direct traffic/writing for clicks model, where quality and substance aren't even a consideration?

                        The only hopes that you have is article directories, SEO, PPC, and getting widespread on those CB blogs but that's not "syndication" by any means, lol. If it is, there is no reason to get on a high horse about that kind of syndication.
                        Thank you for proving my point. Although I have never understood why marketers insist on paying as little as they can for 'articles' only to go and spend tonnes of money to drive paid traffic to it.

                        Getting content syndicated on other peoples blogs isn't syndication? I am going to assume you meant those auto-flogs that steal other peoples content.

                        Perhaps you should get off your high horse. So far, the only name calling in these debates has been from those who who follow the SEo and writing for clicks model, such as Dave Rodman.

                        Which in debating, often means they are desperate.

                        The only time you will see ex back style articles on legit sites, is when their resident relationship expert who gets paid peanuts takes a stab at it and usually it has more to do with get over the ex, because that is what a real relationship expert would tell someone to do.
                        Agreed for the most part.

                        So, it is niche dependent.
                        Agreed

                        Another one is FOREX.

                        No legit site would publish an article by a CB affiliate on Forex, lol.
                        If you are specifically referring to that FOREX Robot garbage then I agree, I'l also go on to say that no affiliate with any ounce of integrity would promote those products either.

                        Doesn't matter how "good" it was or how many words, they won't associate themselves with that crap except for if they run banner ads from a network or something.
                        So somebody who has worked in the FOREX market as an actual trader has no hope of ever getting their content syndicated on those sites?

                        Again, it would only be other CB style affiliate sites. Not exactly authority sites, eh?
                        Have you ever actually had any articles syndicated to an authority site before? (According to your definition of what an authority website is)

                        Chris
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                    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                      Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

                      Oops ... you seem to have given as an example one of the most classic instances of widespread syndication there is online.

                      Maybe it is slightly niche-dependent, even though I've certainly never been aware of it, in any of the 8 entirely unrelated niches in which I use it myself, nor have I ever heard anyone else suggest it. Not easy to imagine why it might be, I must say, but an interesting suggestion nevertheless.
                      Alexa, I can say with absolutely certainty that in some niches, you don't
                      stand a chance of getting syndicated. For that matter, with some niches,
                      syndication itself is almost non existent.

                      However, having said that, it is easy enough to determine your chances
                      of getting syndicated in a niche by simply doing your research on the
                      syndication process itself BEFORE you get yourself knee deep INTO the
                      niche.

                      Way too many people take the plunge into the deep end of the pool without
                      first checking to see if they can actually swim in 10 feet of water. And then,
                      after they find they're starting to drown and there is no lifeguard to drag
                      their sorry ass out of the water, they wonder why they're about to die.

                      Duh!

                      I don't even TOUCH a niche until I see...

                      1. They there is widespread syndication or potential for it.

                      2. That I don't have to have a PhD after my name or know somebody in
                      the business to get my article syndicated.

                      For example, I've been writing songs for over 30 years, but I'm still a
                      nobody in the business. So my chances of getting syndicated on any
                      worthwhile online publication is slim to none.

                      Same thing if I wanted to dive into education whether it be elementary
                      or whatever.

                      My wife, who has been teaching high school for over 25 years, has almost
                      no chance of writing an article and getting it syndicated in a respected
                      education publication.

                      Some things you just DON'T mess with unless you're a somebody.

                      Most article marketers, no offense to anybody here, are nobodys and stand
                      little chance of getting syndicated in certain niches.

                      They key is knowing WHICH they are and to simply STAY AWAY from them.

                      A little common sense goes a long way in this business.

                      Something a lot of people don't use...unfortunately.
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                      • Profile picture of the author myob
                        psst...........(My secret is to hire writers who are specialized in those fields; but don't tell anybody.)
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                        • Profile picture of the author Dave Rodman
                          Banned
                          Originally Posted by myob View Post

                          psst...........(My secret is to hire writers who are specialized in those fields; but don't tell anybody.)
                          Ho hum...blanket advice with no regard for the market you're playing in.
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                          • Profile picture of the author Dave Rodman
                            Banned
                            Maybe so, but why would you want to promote these kinds of products, anyway?
                            I sell a niche product that has really good margins and decent volume. Literally the only people in the space are selling the product, that's it. There are no blogs or commentary sites, because there's not much to talk about. There are no "larger issues"...it's the product. You can expand the scope of the article for additional reach, but the traffic won't be near as targeted.

                            This is a niche where I've sold several million dollars of products because of the combination of high conversions, good margins, and decent search volume.
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                            • Profile picture of the author DireStraits
                              Originally Posted by Dave Rodman View Post

                              I sell a niche product that has really good margins and decent volume. Literally the only people in the space are selling the product, that's it. There are no blogs or commentary sites, because there's not much to talk about. There are no "larger issues"...it's the product. You can expand the scope of the article for additional reach, but the traffic won't be near as targeted.

                              This is a niche where I've sold several million dollars of products because of the combination of high conversions, good margins, and decent search volume.
                              And despite your success in selling this product in this specific niche, would it, in all honesty, fall into the category of "crappy, useless, scammy rubbish that doesn't work and has no relevance except to loopy / intellectually challenged individuals"? :p

                              Or is it because what you're selling is a product whose information/purpose is so generic and widely and freely available that it sells only because of its reliance on blind sales copy which describes the content as being "unique, world-changing, and never before seen"? (In other words, you couldn't very well write articles about Google AdWords techniques to promote a product whose sales-page declares its not being Google AdWords, only for it to turn out to be about Microsoft adCentre instead, without giving the game away and revealing that your "magical proprietary system" is really not magical at all and therefore of no interest to anyone who was hoping for a genuine, revolutionary, magical system ... right?)

                              There is a high correlation, so far as I can see, between these niches in which syndication allegedly "doesn't work", and niches which are:-

                              (1) Scammy and pointless; and,

                              (2) Not real niches at all, by any stretch of the imagination, and can only exist and satisfy a demand that is drummed up "artificially" by the vendor's flagrant lies, claims of a "top-secret proprietary system" (which usually turns out not to be so secret nor proprietary, after all) and shady/underhand selling tactics.

                              If such products/niches exist, then they'd have to be truly revolutionary, for sure. So revolutionary that there is not yet any demand for them beyond what comes through keyword searches for their exact product/niche/"brand" name? :p

                              Otherwise, I cannot imagine many scenarios, for many products/niches, in which article topics cannot be expanded to be relevant to a slightly wider audience, of whom an inevitable and sufficient proportion are likely to be interested in buying said product ... and who would make the writing/commissioning and syndication of those articles not only a viable endeavour, but also one that's immensely successful and profitable.
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                              • Profile picture of the author Dave Rodman
                                Banned
                                Originally Posted by DireStraits View Post

                                And despite your success in selling this product in this specific niche, would it, in all honesty, fall into the category of "crappy, useless, scammy rubbish that doesn't work and has no relevance except to loopy / intellectually challenged individuals"? :p

                                Or is it because what you're selling is a product whose information/purpose is so generic and widely and freely available that it sells only because of its reliance on blind sales copy which describes the content as being "unique, world-changing, and never before seen"? (In other words, you couldn't very well write articles about Google AdWords techniques to promote a product whose sales-page declares its not being Google AdWords, only for it to turn out to be about Microsoft adCentre instead, without giving the game away and revealing that your "magical proprietary system" is really not magical at all and therefore of no interest to anyone who was hoping for a genuine, revolutionary, magical system ... right?)

                                There is a high correlation, so far as I can see, between these niches in which syndication allegedly "doesn't work", and niches which are:-

                                (1) Scammy and pointless; and,

                                (2) Not real niches at all, by any stretch of the imagination, and can only exist and satisfy a demand that is drummed up "artificially" by the vendor's flagrant lies, claims of a "top-secret proprietary system" (which usually turns out not to be so secret nor proprietary, after all) and shady/underhand selling tactics.

                                If such products/niches exist, then they'd have to be truly revolutionary, for sure. So revolutionary that there is not yet any demand for them beyond what comes through keyword searches for their exact product/niche/"brand" name? :p

                                Otherwise, I cannot imagine many scenarios, for many products/niches, in which article topics cannot be expanded to be relevant to a slightly wider audience, of whom an inevitable and sufficient proportion are likely to be interested in buying said product ... and who would make the writing/commissioning and syndication of those articles not only a viable endeavour, but also one that's immensely successful and profitable.
                                You've spent too much time in information marketing/Internet marketing niches. Not everyone is selling information on how to conquer their fear of public speaking, losing weight, getting rich on forex, getting website traffic, or how to get a date. There are people out there that sell real stuff....actual physical products.

                                My friend owns a plastic extrusion company. He makes products like corner guards for walls, things to hold open the paper yard waste boxes, and other consumer-type products. Should he write-distribute aritcles like "Top 5 Things You MUST Avoid Unless You Want Grass All Over Your Driveway!!!!". I'm not saying he doesn't have syndication opportunities, but do you really think they have the same opportunities as someone in the fat loss industry?

                                You can write an article that directly relates to the niche he operates in, or you could expand the topic and dilute it to the point where the traffic is worthless.
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                                • Profile picture of the author myob
                                  Originally Posted by Dave Rodman View Post

                                  My friend owns a plastic extrusion company. He makes products like corner guards for walls, things to hold open the paper yard waste boxes, and other consumer-type products. Should he write-distribute aritcles like "Top 5 Things You MUST Avoid Unless You Want Grass All Over Your Driveway!!!!". I'm not saying he doesn't have syndication opportunities, but do you really think they have the same opportunities as someone in the fat loss industry?

                                  You can write an article that directly relates to the niche he operates in, or you could expand the topic and dilute it to the point where the traffic is worthless.
                                  That would be an industry/product I could easily find syndication outlets for example in online ezine publishers targeting contractors, websites, offline trade journals, press releases, industrial supply newsletters, and even popular DIY magazines. Topics could explain the extrusion process itself and how the products are made, applications, how to use, etc.

                                  It's exactly how I'm writing for dozens of other niches such as highly specialized books, and physical products in heavy industrial/medical/scientific/communications/automotive equipment etc.
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                                • Profile picture of the author fitz10
                                  Originally Posted by Dave Rodman View Post


                                  My friend owns a plastic extrusion company. He makes products like corner guards for walls, things to hold open the paper yard waste boxes, and other consumer-type products. Should he write-distribute aritcles like "Top 5 Things You MUST Avoid Unless You Want Grass All Over Your Driveway!!!!". I'm not saying he doesn't have syndication opportunities, but do you really think they have the same opportunities as someone in the fat loss industry?
                                  He may not have the same opportunities as the guy in the fat loss industry but to act as if information marketing or syndication wouldn't serve him at all is ridiculous. In the book "Content Rules" there's an example of a B2B that manufactures of specialty alloys and solders and uses extensive content marketing to attract buyers, including blogs and syndicated white papers and so on.

                                  You seem to equate people hocking crappy Clickbank products with syndication when in fact the people paying the most attention to syndication are multi-million dollar companies.
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                          • Profile picture of the author myob
                            Originally Posted by myob View Post

                            psst...........(My secret is to hire writers who are specialized in those fields; but don't tell anybody.)
                            Originally Posted by Dave Rodman View Post

                            Ho hum...blanket advice with no regard for the market you're playing in.
                            Disclaimer: All information offered is for educational and informational purposes only. Use caution and seek the advice of qualified professionals. Check with your Accountant, Lawyer or Professional Advisor before acting on this or any information. Every effort has been made to accurately represent our model and its potential. Any income statements and examples are not to be interpreted as a promise or guarantee of earnings.
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    • Profile picture of the author ksmusselman
      Originally Posted by Rod Cortez View Post

      < Grabs popcorn, a brewsky, and 3-D glasses> :rolleyes:

      RoD
      Getting a coffee refill here so I can continue reading on... getting good...
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      • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
        Apparently I need to post this...

        While I do firmly believe that a large percentage of people that talk about syndication are full of ****...and are generally just repeating what they've heard to try to impress people and sound as if they are some sort of uber professional....I was not specifically talking about Alexa, or anyone else from this forum.

        Although I made a point to specifically state that I think folks such as Alexa, and Bill Platt do well with Syndication, for whatever reason Alexa took it personal, that wasn't my intention. I've often thanked Alexa for her input even when I don't agree with her, but for whatever reason, she has decided to take this as a ME VS Her type of situation...So, I'm more than likely going to just exit the conversation now and let it be dominated by the Pro Syndication folks.

        SYNDICATION = GOOD

        WRITING FOR DIRECT TRAFFIC AND PROFIT = BAD
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        • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
          Originally Posted by Jack Tripper View Post

          You had to apologize in order to save your account here or were facing some other sort of threat, weren't ya??
          lol...

          I made my post on my own free will, largely due to the fact that I generally get along well with Alexa, but for whatever reason, she took my comments personally...which wasn't my intention.
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          • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
            Banned
            Yes indeed ... Jeremy and I generally get along very well together. :p

            I made a post above which I re-thought and decided it would be more appropriate to send to Jeremy privately, so I deleted it and did that, not realising that at the same time he was (perfectly reasonably) replying to it, so I asked him if he'd be kind enough to remove his reply, which he immediately did.

            Thank you, Jeremy. I apologise if I over-reacted to your initial post. I do realise it wasn't "aimed at me".
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        • Profile picture of the author Dave Rodman
          Banned
          Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

          Apparently I need to post this...

          While I do firmly believe that a large percentage of people that talk about syndication are full of ****...and are generally just repeating what they've heard to try to impress people and sound as if they are some sort of uber professional....I was not specifically talking about Alexa, or anyone else from this forum.

          Although I made a point to specifically state that I think folks such as Alexa, and Bill Platt do well with Syndication, for whatever reason Alexa took it personal, that wasn't my intention. I've often thanked Alexa for her input even when I don't agree with her, but for whatever reason, she has decided to take this as a ME VS Her type of situation...So, I'm more than likely going to just exit the conversation now and let it be dominated by the Pro Syndication folks.

          SYNDICATION = GOOD

          WRITING FOR DIRECT TRAFFIC AND PROFIT = BAD
          I think this entire thread is a perfect example of what your typical article marketing thread looks like.

          You have the people that have the experience in marketing that realize the value in a lot of approaches, people like Kurt, Jeremy, or Zeus let's say.

          Then you have people that are big believers in syndication and maybe it's worked great for them. But they preach it like it's going to be some kind of panacea for any IM'er out there. If you're not doing it their way, you're doing it wrong.

          And then you have the 95% of people out there, that talk the big game about syndication but have probably never had any success with it.

          What Jeremy is saying is not really that controversial, but I had the same thing happen in a thread awhile back. I was trying to bring these Syndication Syndicate Members back down to earth and they all started going ape sh*t acting like I was just telling them that the earth is flat. It wasn't until Dr. Mani entered the thread came into the thread to calm the pack down when he basically said "All he's saying is to you need to find what works best for YOUR market".
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          • Profile picture of the author DireStraits
            Originally Posted by Terry Gorry View Post

            I must say that it is the intellectual snobbery that I have witnessed from the "syndication" proponents that pees me off.
            Respectfully, Terry, however you perceive it, I can assure you there's no snobbery.

            What there are, are 2 distinct groups of people who both take different approaches.

            On the one side, there are those who do article syndication (arguably the more "traditional" form of article marketing that was practised before "bum marketing" became popular and/or SEO became "mainstream", and certainly before so many sites began automatically accepting content submissions from users) and who are sick and tired of seeing threads in which people proclaim "article marketing is dead", or "article marketing never worked anyway and was just a big conspiracy", or "holy s*its, Google dropped a bomb on EzineArticles and now I have no traffic" ... and it turns out that what they're doing is no more article marketing, by the traditional definition, than it is bare horseback riding or something else equally unconnected. What they're doing is SEO, except they're peddling off another site's authority to lessen the amount of backlink-building they need to do.

            Unfortunately, because they're utilising a property they don't own nor control, they're at the mercy of the site operators' (and to a certain extent, its other users') quality standards to ensure that search-engines such as Google have no reason to want to penalise or otherwise devalue that site from beneath them. And when your traffic is coming through one source, or a small number of them, such as Google or a small handful of authority-laden (or at least for now) sites, you sort of are treading a tightrope that's at risk of being vigorously shaken without so much as a moment's notice.

            On the other hand, you have "article directory marketers", who don't like being reminded of the risk or potential pitfalls of their traffic-generating model, and lash out at anyone who tries to bring them to light for others' consideration.

            No-one on either side (or so I would hope - and especially not from my perspective) is forcing anyone to "switch sides", but inevitably people get their feathers ruffled and all that ensues is a series of spiralling, baseless accusations that "the other party is probably just lying out of their arse, and isn't even earning any money", and other such stuff. Basically, it descends into little more than a slagging match; people become so territorial that they're hell-bent on refuting everything the opposing party states and wouldn't dream of acknowledging the existence of any common ground between them, even if some existed.

            It becomes an argument for argument's sake. Gawd help us all, when that happens.

            Originally Posted by Terry Gorry View Post

            I also have a hunch, supported by 3 warriors that I know pretty well, that there is a direct inverse correlation between succeeding online and the number and frequency of posts on the Warrior Forum
            Haha. Well, I laugh on the assumption that you don't really believe this, otherwise please substitute "Haha" for "ARRRGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH".
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            • Profile picture of the author Dave Rodman
              Banned
              Dire, Jeremy's not even critizing syndication...he's just saying that it's not the answer in all situations.

              This is pretty standard in this thread because the "Article Syndication Syndicate" is obsessive about making their viewpoint known. Which is fine..obviously people want to let others know what works for them. But it's usually spoken about in such a dogmatic way that leaves newbies, or others, to believe that it's the BEST way to do article marketing...regardless.

              The thread that had a lot of pages was where Alexa basically said it was perfectly fine to duplicate your entire site because there is no such thing as a duplicate content penalty. That's HORRIBLE advice to just give out when you know nothing about a person's business. Yet all the usual suspects came out of the woodwork to support the idea. It was actually kind of laughable at so many people defending advice like that...but that's the herd mentality I guess.
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              • Profile picture of the author DireStraits
                Originally Posted by Dave Rodman View Post

                Dire, Jeremy's not even critizing syndication...he's just saying that it's not the answer in all situations.
                I know this, Dave. Thanks, though. :p

                I'm just pointing out to Terry that it's not as cut and dry as "article syndicators are full of snobbery" (as he said/implied), and that it's really just a case of "article directory marketers" not liking any of the flaws/dangers/pitfalls of their approach being brought to light for the benefit of those who are perhaps new to this whole online marketing game.

                Those with less experience are entitled to be educated about the potential risks of a given method, aren't they? And if "we" don't do it, who will? It's rare that someone adopting of a certain approach/mentality will go to great lengths to criticise it, if it means essentially criticising their own judgement and "facing up to certain unwelcome realities".

                Originally Posted by Dave Rodman View Post

                This is pretty standard in this thread because the "Article Syndication Syndicate" is obsessive about making their viewpoint known. Which is fine..obviously people want to let others know what works for them. But it's usually spoken about in such a dogmatic way that leaves newbies, or others, to believe that it's the BEST way to do article marketing...regardless.
                I don't really agree with this. If you look at the number of threads in which article marketing is discussed, what "form" does it usually take? It's not the form "we" talk about. It is not syndication. It is article directory marketing - the process of leveraging another sites' authority for easier search-engine rankings and "faster traffic".

                Now consider how many of these threads are of a negative nature. As I've already said, stuff like "Article marketing is dead", "EZA has been shot down, the sky is falling" (because for them it possibly is!), and so on.

                It's frustrating when multiple terms with different definitions are used almost interchangeably, causing the distinction between various methodologies to become hazy and unclear to those who don't know any better. And not only is it frustrating to stand by and watch the situation worsening in front of you, it is saddening to think that so many people who perhaps don't post will read these threads and become another statistic - one that possibly won't even be counted because of their remaining forever anonymous, and their failing to succeed going completely unnoticed.

                And once again, this is little to do with this thread. I'm just explaining why article syndicators often feel the need to draw attention to the fact that there is "another way", for the benefit of sheer volume of unfortunate souls who are forever failing to attain success with "article marketing", or who are continually stumbling from crisis-to-crisis, living a perpetual state of fear of everything crashing down around them every time Google rolls out a new algorithm update. :p

                Anyway, time to do some reading, eat some garbage and get some beauty sleep. Night all.
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                • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
                  Originally Posted by DireStraits View Post

                  I know this, Dave. Thanks, though. :p

                  I'm just pointing out to Terry that it's not as cut and dry as "article syndicators are full of snobbery" (as he said/implied), and that it's really just a case of "article directory marketers" not liking any of the flaws/dangers/pitfalls of their approach being brought to light for the benefit of those who are perhaps new to this whole online marketing game.
                  Of course it isn't cut and dry, but if you look through this thread and others, you will see that most of the "article directory marketers" acknowledge the fact that syndication is a GOOD thing when done correctly.

                  ...on the other side of the coin though, I think it's pretty rare or maybe even non existent for a "syndicator" to say the same about the article directory marketers.

                  Instead, the rebuttals and replies usually start and end with a bunch of...

                  Why would you's
                  I would nevers
                  That just doesn't make senses

                  The fact of the matter is, Article directory marketing is very rewarding when it comes to both profit and lead generation if done right...the same way syndicating content is...

                  Originally Posted by DireStraits View Post

                  Those with less experience are entitled to be educated about the potential risks of a given method, aren't they? And if "we" don't do it, who will? It's rare that someone adopting of a certain approach/mentality will go to great lengths to criticise it, if it means essentially criticising their own judgement and "facing up to certain unwelcome realities".
                  Educating is one thing. In many cases though, the replies and help that are offered amount to making some feel ignorant, and like they are somehow doing something wrong, when what they are doing isn't WRONG...it's just not the way you and some others would do it.

                  Yet when someone else (a directory marketer) jumps into the conversation, syndicators often don't want to allow them the opportunity to "educate". Instead, directory marketing is belittled and crucified as some "short term strategy" - I've been doing it for 3 years, very profitably as have many others (for longer than myself).

                  ALSO, many directory marketers DO SYNDICATE, they just don't worry about syndication from EZA which in many cases is the crux of the argument...err...I mean discussion.

                  Originally Posted by DireStraits View Post

                  I don't really agree with this. If you look at the number of threads in which article marketing is discussed, what "form" does it usually take? It's not the form "we" talk about. It is not syndication. It is article directory marketing - the process of leveraging another sites' authority for easier search-engine rankings and "faster traffic".
                  Quite a few do start like that, but the threads rarely get 10 replies deep before we start to see some of the things that I talked about above.

                  The way that paragraph read, it's as if there is something wrong with leveraging another sites' authority for easier search-engine rankings and "faster traffic"...the easier and faster the better I say...not sure what's wrong with that...

                  Originally Posted by DireStraits View Post

                  Now consider how many of these threads are of a negative nature. As I've already said, stuff like "Article marketing is dead", "EZA has been shot down, the sky is falling" (because for them it possibly is!), and so on.
                  Nobody that knows that they are doing is starting threads like that. It's mostly "newbs". The core of the discussion though, is the same even if it's a group of people that clearly know what they are doing, and know the benefits/drawbacks of both syndicating and directory marketing.

                  Originally Posted by DireStraits View Post

                  It's frustrating when multiple terms with different definitions are used almost interchangeably, causing the distinction between various methodologies to become hazy and unclear to those who don't know any better. And not only is it frustrating to stand by and watch the situation worsening in front of you, it is saddening to think that so many people who perhaps don't post will read these threads and become another statistic - one that possibly won't even be counted because of their remaining forever anonymous, and their failing to succeed going completely unnoticed.
                  So....

                  Directory marketing = fail?
                  Syndicating = success?

                  I understand what you're saying, but I don't understand the rationale. I'm confident that you could post a thread explaining how you syndicate content, then I could post one about how I directory market, and even if someone only read one of the threads they would be MUCH better off for it.


                  Originally Posted by DireStraits View Post

                  And once again, this is little to do with this thread. I'm just explaining why article syndicators often feel the need to draw attention to the fact that there is "another way", for the benefit of sheer volume of unfortunate souls who are forever failing to attain success with "article marketing", or who are continually stumbling from crisis-to-crisis, living a perpetual state of fear of everything crashing down around them every time Google rolls out a new algorithm update. :p
                  lol...wut?

                  That whole paragraph is EXACTLY what I'm talking about. Again, you are for the most part saying that directory marketing is a short term unsustainable traffic and lead generation model, when it clearly isn't.

                  There are benefits and drawbacks to both directory marketing and syndicating content, ESPECIALLY WHEN IT CONCERNS EZA...which is what this thread, and the initial comments focused on.

                  The thread started out as a EZA thread Syndicating vs Directory, and it somehow spiraled into a general syndicating vs directory discussion, when clearly the two aren't the same.

                  The bottom line is that both models work...

                  Anyone that says that directory marketing doesn't work, I'm willing to prove otherwise through dollars and cents that are directly attributed to direct directory traffic. I mean, at least to some degree, that is how we as business people measure what works and what doesn't, isn't it?

                  How much revenue a method generates?
                  How much traffic a method brings?
                  How many leads are a direct result of a method?
                  The dollars and cents on the bottom line?

                  I'm sure that people who write skillfully such as yourself and Alexa have NO problem getting your content syndicated in niches where content is regularly syndicated...NO PROBLEM AT ALL...

                  But what about the affiliate that is promoting a reverse cell phone service? Or an affiliate that is promoting a Make Money Online product? Or one that is promoting a yeast infection product from clickbank?

                  Surely, their best bet is to get as much direct traffic as they can get initially, and push to get their content ranked as high as possible as fast as possible...right?

                  The same way that someone promoting something like Relationship advice, Financial services, or some sort of Medical information site would be better served getting their content syndicated onto larger and more authoritative sites to be seen as an expert.

                  To me, it all comes down to situations and details. As a directory marketer (most of the time) i can admit that there are certainly situations where being a syndicator would clearly more beneficial. I've seen other directory marketers admit the same thing in other threads.

                  A syndicator admitting that what a directory marketer is doing for the situation and details though is pretty elusive...
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                  • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
                    Banned
                    Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

                    The bottom line is that both models work...
                    For what proportion of people trying them, though?

                    For myself, I very strongly suspect that one model works for a very small minority of people trying it (and that that proportion has gradually been getting smaller and smaller over the last two years while I've been discussing it every day with Warriors), whereas the other seems to work for a high proportion of those who try it.

                    I think I understand some of the reasons for that, too.

                    But it's all supposition and surmise, and I can adduce no real evidence for my beliefs on this subject, which are (in evidential terms) only a little bit better than "anecdotal". And the way parts of the conversation have been going, I don't feel like explaining them in any detail since I can't prove them anyway and some people here seem automatically to dismiss anything that doesn't come with proof signed in blood and personally witnessed by the presidents of three countries and a state-registered auditor.

                    As a separate matter, it's my own impression, from having read every discussion there's been on "article marketing" (all kinds) in this forum over the last 2 years (and posted in most of those threads, which I don't do without reading them) that, in general, with only very occasional exceptions, all the people who fail at article marketing (and as for any form of attempted self-employment, that's a hell of a lot of people) fail in more or less the same way, and it's a way characterised by trying to use article directories for traffic and backlinks, whereas nearly all the people who find considerable success, and especially the ones who have found their success recently, unlike yourself, Jeremy (you've perpetuated great success, clearly, not just "found" it recently) do so in their own slightly different ways characterised by finding approaches (typically but not always involving article syndication) which depend for their income on doing things other than using article directories for traffic and backlinks. I freely admit that that's a personal impression only, but it's a pretty firmly held one and based on what seems to me like a huge amount of circumstantial evidence.

                    Two things I almost guarantee:-

                    (i) Whenever you see people saying "Article marketing doesn't work any more" (and we've certainly seen that a few hundred times) it will turn out that what they've been doing is actually only "article directory marketing", and they've been depending on article directories for traffic and for backlinks;

                    (ii) As we've seen commented on here so many times, when people switch from one model of "article marketing" to a syndication model, they don't switch back.

                    These last two points seem to me to be inescapable factual observations, not just opinion.

                    The rest of my post, above, was opinion only, of course.
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                    • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
                      Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

                      For what proportion of people trying them, though?
                      I don't think that anyone in this thread can give an accurate proportion. I know that I can't.

                      Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

                      For myself, I very strongly suspect that one model works for a very small minority of people trying it (and that that proportion has gradually been getting smaller and smaller over the last two years while I've been discussing it every day with Warriors), whereas the other seems to work for a high proportion of those who try it.
                      I agree completely. In order to get content syndicated, not only do you have to be able to write well, but your grammar and punctuation must be on point. Not only that, but I'm sure that sites that are out there looking to syndicate content have TONS of options, so there are a ton of folks that simply can't get their content syndicated. This is probably especially true when they are trying to achieve syndication via a directory like EZA.

                      You see what I did there?

                      Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

                      I think I understand some of the reasons for that, too.
                      Me too...

                      Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

                      But it's all supposition and surmise, and I can adduce no real evidence for my beliefs on this subject, which are (in evidential terms) only a little bit better than "anecdotal". And the way parts of the conversation have been going, I don't feel like explaining them in any detail since I can't prove them anyway and some people here seem automatically to dismiss anything that doesn't come with proof signed in blood and personally witnessed by the presidents of three countries and a state-registered auditor.
                      Alexa, proof could be as simple as a few article titles, so the burden here isn't very difficult to meet, is it?

                      All I've hinted at as far as proof is the title to maybe 5 or 10 articles that were published to EZA and then syndicated to sites with AUTHORITY or MASS APPEAL that myself and anyone else here couldn't have put content on by simply registering an account.

                      Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

                      As a separate matter, it's my own impression, from having read every discussion there's been on "article marketing" (all kinds) in this forum over the last 2 years (and posted in most of those threads, which I don't do without reading them) that, in general, with only very occasional exceptions, all the people who fail at article marketing (and as for any form of attempted self-employment, that's a hell of a lot of people) fail in more or less the same way, and it's a way characterised by trying to use article directories for traffic and backlinks, whereas nearly all the people who find considerable success, and especially the ones who have found their success recently, unlike yourself, Jeremy (you've perpetuated great success, clearly, not just "found" it recently) do so in their own slightly different ways characterised by finding approaches (typically but not always involving article syndication) which depend for their income on doing things other than using article directories for traffic and backlinks. I freely admit that that's a personal impression only, but it's a pretty firmly held one and based on what seems to me like a huge amount of circumstantial evidence.
                      That's probably a pretty fair impression, to be honest.

                      But, I don't imagine that the failure rate of those folks is any higher than the failure rate of someone whose goal was to get their content syndicated who wrote 300 words of complete gibberish.

                      People who fail at article marketing OF ANY FORM in my opinion usually do so for the same reasons:
                      1. They don't understand their market
                      2. They don't do enough of it
                      3. They don't know how to engage a reader to make them want to click
                      4. They pick the wrong market

                      Two things I almost guarantee:-

                      Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

                      (i) Whenever you see people saying "Article marketing doesn't work any more" (and we've certainly seen that a few hundred times) it will turn out that what they've been doing is actually only "article directory marketing", and they've been depending on article directories for traffic and for backlinks;
                      Of course you are going to see more people saying that. More people are doing it that way...it's the law of averages.

                      It only makes sense (to me anyway), that those whose goal it is to have content syndicated are folks who write VERY WELL, have great grammar, punctuation, and generally know how to engage a reader on a level that the majority of article marketers don't know how to do.

                      The people that can't do those things - HAVE NO SHOT at succeeding with syndication...In my opinion anyway...But, anyone can put together an "average" article with the intention of trying to get traffic.

                      Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

                      (ii) As we've seen commented on here so many times, when people switch from one model of "article marketing" to a syndication model, they don't switch back.
                      Fair enough...I havn't seen a TON of people stating that they "switched", but I believe what you say.
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                      • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
                        Banned
                        Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

                        Alexa, proof could be as simple as a few article titles, so the burden here isn't very difficult to meet, is it?
                        You'll be the first to know when I suddenly decide to disclose one of my niches. :p

                        Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

                        People who fail at article marketing OF ANY FORM in my opinion usually do so for the same reasons:
                        We agree about that. Just not about the reasons. It seems to me that nearly all the people who fail are depending on article directories for traffic and backlinks, and nearly all the ones who succeed aren't. That's the striking commonality. It seems that way to many others who post here regularly, too.

                        Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

                        I havn't seen a TON of people stating that they "switched", but I believe what you say.
                        Thanks. (No, not a TON of people, I agree. But enough to be very noticeable and consistent).

                        And good night.
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                        • Profile picture of the author bretski
                          This is an interesting thread, to say the least. But to say that either method of using articles in marketing is wrong is rediculous. The fact is that I would never be able to replicate the results that anyone has had with any form of marketing because I am me and I'm not someone else.

                          We all write just a little bit differently. We all have different thoughts on subjects related to whatever topic we might be writing on in whatever niche we may be working in. Some types of articles do work better in certain niches and some people just can't write their way out of a paper bag.

                          Do both methods of marketing using articles work? Yes or people wouldn't be doing it and making money at it.

                          Does spamming work? Yes or people wouldn't be doing it and making money at it.
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                • Profile picture of the author drmani
                  Snobbery and elitism are generally tools or attitudes adopted
                  by those who aren't yet beyond a point where they realize it's
                  all a farce (Yes, that's in marketing and in Life!)

                  But what can be perceived to be snobbery may well be wisdom
                  that's the product of years and years of experience, trying
                  out different things, seeing which ones work well, getting
                  better at them, and turning them into an art form - while
                  making it 'systemizable' and duplicatable/repeatable.

                  Anyone who has been marketing with articles since 1996 (like
                  I have) has probably tested several approaches - and found
                  a 'sweet spot' for their niche(s), then evolved a working
                  system out of it.

                  Will the same ones work for YOU? That's the big question.
                  And it needs a test to say for sure.

                  But now, a variable enters the picture.

                  Someone who has NOT tried different approaches, but finds
                  one that works well for them, starts positioning that ONE
                  as the ONLY one - and urges everyone to use/follow/adopt it.

                  That person would, reasonably, perceive anyone who questions
                  their viewpoint as a heretic or trouble-maker - and anyone
                  who touts the merits of an alternative approach as a snob
                  or elitist jerk.

                  It's human nature.

                  We like to believe we know best.

                  We are reluctant to accept that may not be true.

                  That's why we resist running what my mentor Jay Abraham
                  taught me was the most valuable marketing asset...

                  An INEXPENSIVE TEST

                  And then, on a large forum like this one, there is inevitably
                  the comment from somone who has done little or nothing to test
                  the various options - yet with sheer authority and confidence
                  will spout statements that discourage or deter a beginner.

                  Like a recent comment about only "great writers" being likely
                  to get their content syndicated.

                  Absolute ROT.

                  My 'best content' often does NOT get syndicated - but my 'most
                  popular' content does... even when I know it isn't great stuff!

                  The key to success with article syndication is following a
                  process and being proactive about it, not simply submitting
                  to EZA or any other directory and then sitting on your tush
                  hoping the world will beat a path to your content and syndicate
                  it!

                  But get the process right, and ANYONE can have their content
                  syndicated widely.

                  And in the same vein, if you follow the 'bum marketing' approach
                  of submitting multiple articles to directories for traffic, like
                  Jeremy and others are successfully doing, then again you need to
                  follow a process - which is the result of extensive TESTING.

                  Simply publishing 10 or 20 or 100 articles to directories and
                  sitting back to cash big checks is a recipe for disappointment
                  and disillusionment, too.

                  All success
                  Dr.Mani

                  P.S. - re: definitions

                  Originally Posted by DireStraits View Post

                  It's frustrating when multiple terms with different definitions are used almost interchangeably, causing the distinction between various methodologies to become hazy and unclear to those who don't know any better. And not only is it frustrating to stand by and watch the situation worsening in front of you, it is saddening to think that so many people who perhaps don't post will read these threads and become another statistic - one that possibly won't even be counted because of their remaining forever anonymous, and their failing to succeed going completely unnoticed.
                  I posted this thread specifically to help with that situation

                  http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...on-aarrgh.html


                  .
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                  • Profile picture of the author drmani
                    I just checked.

                    Under one pseudonym, I have 25 articles on a health related niche on
                    EzineArticles.com

                    Collectively they have received 7,967 views on the site... and have
                    never been syndicated, to my best knowledge.

                    This batch of articles, which took me around a week to research and
                    write, has brought in a total of almost $2,500 in affiliate income
                    from a recurring billing style product over 2 years.

                    So, is this proof that what is being referred to here as "article
                    directory marketing" is a failure, won't work at all, and is "short
                    term"?

                    Or is it evidence that ANY system can work if it is backed by a
                    strategy, and executed effectively?

                    Sure, my 'successes' from content syndication are bigger - but I'd be
                    a fool to argue that "article directory marketing" doesn't work when
                    I've enjoyed benefits like the one outlined above.

                    Just sharing this for counter-point - and to point out that there
                    are different ways to make content work for you.

                    Tapping into as many as you can, intelligently and effectively, is
                    at the core of being an Internet infopreneur.

                    All success
                    Dr.Mani
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                    • Profile picture of the author bretski
                      Originally Posted by drmani View Post

                      I just checked.

                      Under one pseudonym, I have 25 articles on a health related niche on
                      EzineArticles.com

                      Collectively they have received 7,967 views on the site... and have
                      never been syndicated, to my best knowledge.

                      This batch of articles, which took me around a week to research and
                      write, has brought in a total of almost $2,500 in affiliate income
                      from a recurring billing style product over 2 years.

                      So, is this proof that what is being referred to here as "article
                      directory marketing" is a failure, won't work at all, and is "short
                      term"?

                      Or is it evidence that ANY system can work if it is backed by a
                      strategy, and executed effectively?
                      The danger in posting stuff like this is that now newbies who are posting that same question of "how many articles" and "what niche makes money" will be pounding out batches of 25 articles in the health niche and trying to submit them to EZA so they can make an average of a little over $100 a month... and then just "rinse and repeat"!!
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                      • Profile picture of the author drmani
                        Originally Posted by bretski View Post

                        The danger in posting stuff like this...
                        Why "danger"?

                        Why not "opportunity"?

                        Because the point IS that this can be done - by going through a specific process.

                        Finding out that process is the difficult part, and requires testing.

                        ... will be pounding out batches of 25 articles in the health niche and trying to submit them to EZA so they can make an average of a little over $100 a month... and then just "rinse and repeat"!!
                        If they do, and succeed, that's great.

                        If they don't, and learn something that works better or as an alternative,
                        that's even better.

                        When you do find a winning process, 'rinse and repeat' is a fantastic idea

                        All success
                        Dr.Mani
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                        • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
                          Banned
                          Originally Posted by drmani View Post

                          When you do find a winning process, 'rinse and repeat' is a fantastic idea
                          It can be.

                          But typically, it's a bit "linear".

                          Usually, it speaks of doing work and getting paid for it, then doing more work and getting paid for that again, and so on. Not a bad thing in itself, certainly, but not building a business.

                          Characteristically, it's not really scalable.

                          Normally, it's not really building an asset-based business based on growing residual income from work previously done.

                          In short, it's usually more about "creating a job for yourself" than building up a "real business asset".

                          The "rinse and repeat" model of article marketing is the one with which so many people fail, and the one to which they never switch back once they've discovered the "syndication model".
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                          • Profile picture of the author drmani
                            Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

                            The "rinse and repeat" model of article marketing is the one with which so many people fail, and the one to which they never switch back once they've discovered the "syndication model".
                            I do BOTH.

                            And with the right kind of monetization model, the first style too can become
                            a 'business' - with recurring income without working to sustain it.

                            Strategy - that's the key.

                            All success
                            Dr.Mani
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                            • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
                              Originally Posted by drmani View Post

                              I do BOTH.

                              And with the right kind of monetization model, the first style too can become
                              a 'business' - with recurring income without working to sustain it.

                              Strategy - that's the key.

                              All success
                              Dr.Mani
                              And with above normal punctuation, writing, and grammar skills, the second style too can become a 'business' - with recurring income without working to sustain it.

                              Fixed that for ya hehe

                              Great post Dr. Mani (your original)

                              What I'm attempting to show by "fixing it for ya" is that the models can be interchanged with different elements and skills, and be true for different people.
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  • Profile picture of the author Zeus66
    I'll weigh in...

    Backlinks
    For whatever reason, using a place like EZA for backlinks is not nearly as effective as it used to be. So I don't bother anymore.

    Syndication
    Not very effective overall if you start from a public article at EZA. I've always had much more success flipping that around. Go find some high authority blog in your niche and offer them a unique article (or guest post, same thing really) in exchange for a one-way link. This might not be the technical definition of "syndication" of content, but it has been much more effective for me in terms of both direct traffic and the power of the backlink juice.

    Direct Traffic (CTR)
    This is, in my experience, a big roller coaster ride. It depends so much on the niche you pick (not so much on the quality or pre-selling ability of the articles). In some niches you can write a piece of garbage and still get 15% CTR. In other niches (most of them, in fact) you can write an awesome pre-selling juggernaut and you'll be lucky to eek out 10% CTR. I'm talking about from EZA here.

    I think I like EZA as a traffic vehicle and only that. Reverse engineer it. Don't pick a niche and try to force traffic from EZA by writing masterpieces of pre-sellling and/or going for quantity of articles. Learn which niches get the most clicks because of the nature of the people interested in them (Jeremy listed several, but there are plenty more... think desperation). Find a way to monetize those niches (or build a list and monetize on the back end). THEN write pre-sell articles and submit them.

    That's the best way forward, in my humble opinion, if you're going to use EZA these days.

    John
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    • Profile picture of the author myob
      [DELETED]
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      • Profile picture of the author schttrj
        You know, the very problem here is that..

        People DON'T give out proofs!

        I don't know...when you see a sales page, you find lots of pics and graphics...but here, no "expert" seems to be eager to share any proofs with the others.

        And I don't know about others, I don't take anything for face value. That just doesn't work for me!
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        • Profile picture of the author DireStraits
          Originally Posted by schttrj View Post

          You know, the very problem here is that..

          People DON'T give out proofs!

          I don't know...when you see a sales page, you find lots of pics and graphics...but here, no "expert" seems to be eager to share any proofs with the others.

          And I don't know about others, I don't take anything for face value. That just doesn't work for me!
          Forgive my slightly harsh and confrontational tone, but how will that work?

          "Here's a small series of articles under one of my EZA pen-names, that collectively have been republished across 250 different sites and, in addition to all those extra backlinks they bring, result in xxx, or xxxx+ visitors to my site each and every day/month and <however much income>."

          You expect people to do that to satisfy your scepticism (despite the fact that the benefits of article syndication are pretty damn transparent and self-evident), just so you can say "oh... okay... cool", and then go and steal our niches and plagiarise our articles (because you're too lazy to come up with any of your own, in the same way you're perhaps too lazy to test this stuff for yourself instead of making baseless assertions and expecting others to "prove it for you")?

          No, I don't think so. You're unlikely to get your proof, for this very reason. But surely you can appreciate sound logic when you encounter it? This stuff isn't difficult to comprehend; it's not brain-surgery or rocket-science, you know? Just test it for yourself and see.

          This is the trouble with some people. They scoff at anything they've failed at themselves, or otherwise couldn't be bothered to test. Then they try to discredit others who try to assist them, and think their scepticism entitles them to stick their nose within the sensitive areas of someone else's business. And when that person quite predictably and understandably declines, that is taken as a cue that they're "obviously lying" and allows them to justify their continued sniping, name-calling or further attempts to discredit them.
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          • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
            Banned
            Originally Posted by DireStraits View Post

            This is the trouble with some people. They scoff at anything they've failed at themselves, or otherwise couldn't be bothered to test. Then they try to discredit others who try to assist them, and think their scepticism entitles them to stick their nose within the sensitive areas of someone else's business. And when that person quite predictably and understandably declines, that is taken as a cue that they're "obviously lying" and allows them to justify their continued sniping, name-calling or further attempts to discredit them.
            Exactly.

            Thank you.
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            • Profile picture of the author drmani
              I use Ezine Articles for one very specific purpose these days (and am
              even starting to doubt its validity for that) - and it is to quickly
              get a new domain spidered and indexed (Yes, I know there are other ways,
              and use them too!)

              re: syndication and Ezine Articles, the discussion so far has been akin
              to the 5 blind men trying to describe an elephant from touching different
              parts of the animal.



              EZA beats most other article directories when it comes to PASSIVE
              syndication - but very few article syndication users rely on passive
              syndication alone, and use it as the first step to build a relationship.

              If you're hoping to load great content on EZA (or any other directory)
              and hope enough of it gets syndicated on auto-pilot, there's some
              disappointment waiting for you down the road

              The difference is between using a shotgun and sniping through a powerful
              rifle. With one, you can cause serious damage in a short time - with
              a fair bit of 'collateral damage'. With the latter, you can get really
              precise and hit any target you focus upon.

              They are simply different styles of marketing with articles, and each
              will have its proponents and detractors. One group will find it works
              very well, and keep doing it. The other group won't.

              Jeremy makes a VERY good point about 'quality' writing being necessary
              for effective syndication - nobody syndicates junk (or wants to).

              And again, a LOT of it is 'niche specific' - which completely makes a
              mockery of anyone asking for (or trying to provide) "proof that it works"
              ... because it may not, for YOUR niche, and STILL be a highly effective
              marketing method in another.

              The key, as in all marketing, is the same... an INEXPENSIVE TEST.

              All you're out, if it doesn't work, is around a couple of hours writing
              a good article

              All success
              Dr.Mani
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              • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                Jeremy talks about syndication and how he believes most people are full of
                **** when they talk about writing for syndication purposes and is looking
                for proof.

                Well, if anybody simply goes to Google and looks up my name, you'll find a
                number of my articles all over the Internet, and the only directory I submit
                to regularly is EZA. I think I submitted a handful of articles to a few other
                directories and none of them give me the results EZA does.

                With over 1 million views, I think the results speak for themselves. I literally
                built my business around submitting articles.

                Having said that, a lot of what Jeremy said is true. Results are greatly
                dependent on what niche you're writing for. I have some articles in sub
                niches of the health niche that get me over 1,000 views every month like
                clockwork. They rank # 1 at Google for their keywords.

                On the other hands, my articles in the MMO niche get relatively few views
                and I have to write many articles to get the traffic I get. But...and this is
                the important part...because of all the syndication I've gotten from a
                number of sites, I get quite a bit of traffic from outside sources.

                Add to that the blogs I guest author for (been lax in that area of late) and
                it all adds up.

                Point is, I don't put all my eggs in one basket. And with the recent Google
                crackdown on sites like EZA, I'm glad I don't.

                Jill said it best. There are many tactics that you can use to make the most
                out of your content. You can write for backlinks and/or write for syndication.
                The key is knowing what you're doing, when to do it, and with who.

                Otherwise, you're just taking pot shots in the dark.

                My 2 cents on the subject for whatever they're worth.
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          • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
            Originally Posted by DireStraits View Post


            This is the trouble with some people. They scoff at anything they've failed at themselves, or otherwise couldn't be bothered to test. Then they try to discredit others who try to assist them, and think their scepticism entitles them to stick their nose within the sensitive areas of someone else's business. And when that person quite predictably and understandably declines, that is taken as a cue that they're "obviously lying" and allows them to justify their continued sniping, name-calling or further attempts to discredit them.
            On the contrary, Michael. It is much more common for someone preaching the virtues of syndication to preach it's benefits to the "non believers" than it is for the non believers to say anything negative about syndication.

            It happens time and time again here...more than it should.

            Originally Posted by DireStraits View Post

            Forgive my slightly harsh and confrontational tone, but how will that work?

            "Here's a small series of articles under one of my EZA pen-names, that collectively have been republished across 250 different sites and, in addition to all those extra backlinks they bring, result in xxx, or xxxx+ visitors to my site each and every day/month and <however much income>."
            I'd be satisfied with maybe 10 article titles that were originally posted on EZA and then syndicated to sites that I couldn't otherwise put content on either via a manual or mass submission.

            I can show video proof of crappy articles making about $1,000 in a week from EZA, and would like to see if syndication from EZA gives similar results monetarily.

            The way people such as yourself and Alexa write, I have no doubt that you are getting content syndicated, and have content placed on quality sites, so don't take me being a skeptic as a personal attack on anyone specific.

            I just don't think syndication from EZA to QUALITY sites not otherwise available to the masses is very common as a whole.
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            • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
              Banned
              Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

              don't take me being a skeptic as a personal attack on anyone specific.
              How non-specific can it be, in a forum-half-full of people doing this for a living, when you start your contribution to the thread by announcing that 95% of the people you see discussing it are "FULL OF ****"?!

              "No, of course I don't mean you. No, of course I don't mean Mike. No, of course I don't mean Alexa. No, of course I don't mean anyone else posting here about it ... apart from some other, mysterious, unspecified 95% of you who are "FULL OF ****"?!
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              • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
                Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

                How non-specific can it be, in a forum-half-full of people doing this for a living, when you start your contribution to the thread by announcing that 95% of the people you see discussing it are "FULL OF ****"?!

                "No, of course I don't mean you. No, of course I don't mean Mike. No, of course I don't mean Alexa. No, of course I don't mean anyone else posting here about it ... apart from an unspecified 95% of you who are "FULL OF ****"?!
                Well...Gee...maybe you should know that I'm not talking about you because I specifically mentioned you as well as Bill Platt as a couple of people who I think are probably doing well with syndication?

                http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...ml#post3753706

                Jesus...

                This might sound rude, but get over yourself already.

                Maybe you should read my blog and some of my posts in the review section here? Sparing someones feelings, and skirting around calling people out isn't exactly my style. As I said before, The Warrior Forum isn't the only place that discusses syndication, and you or the others you mentioned aren't the only people who talk about it.
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                • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
                  Banned
                  [DELETED]
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                • Profile picture of the author glennda
                  Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

                  Well...Gee...maybe you should know that I'm not talking about you because I specifically mentioned you as well as Bill Platt as a couple of people who I think are probably doing well with syndication?

                  http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...ml#post3753706

                  Jesus...

                  This might sound rude, but get over yourself already.

                  Maybe you should read my blog and some of my posts in the review section here? Sparing someones feelings, and skirting around calling people out isn't exactly my style. As I said before, The Warrior Forum isn't the only place that discusses syndication, and you or the others you mentioned aren't the only people who talk about it.
                  Jesus? I thought you were replying to Alexa? What's Jesus got to do with this? April 22, 2011 he is kinda busy dying on a cross, I don't think Jesus wants to get involved. Just sayin...it was Easter Friday after all. :rolleyes:
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            • Profile picture of the author DireStraits
              Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

              On the contrary, Michael. It is much more common for someone preaching the virtues of syndication to preach it's benefits to the "non believers" than it is for the non believers to say anything negative about syndication.

              It happens time and time again here...more than it should.
              Jeremy,

              When the benefits/pitfalls of either approach are discussed, it's rarely in the comparative context of "this method earns more money" or "you'll get more traffic with this method". What it usually is, is a discussion of the underpinning "logic" and long-term security and viability of each method.

              When you use article directories for "easy rankings" and referral-traffic, you're necessarily and unavoidably more vulnerable to the adverse effects of any single algorithm change which reduces the authority of such sites.

              It's a straightforward case of fewer baskets/diversification = more risk, vs. more baskets/diversification = less risk.

              But there is, admittedly, also the little matter that not all of the traffic on the web originates at search-engines, and if you're relying 100% on search-engine rankings for your traffic, you're putting the traffic-harnessing side of your business in jeopardy. Not only that, but you're also missing out on the potential to get your articles visited/read by a site's "internal traffic" ... because, realistically, I don't go to EzineArticles and look there for articles on "how to dial-in Mark Knopfler's 1977 Stratocaster guitar tone on my VOX Valvetronix VT120+ amp" - but if I stumble across an article titled that while I'm surfing a guitarist-oriented website, then I'll definitely read it with some eagerness.
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              • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
                Originally Posted by DireStraits View Post

                Jeremy,

                When the benefits/pitfalls of either approach are discussed, it's rarely in the comparative context of "this method earns more money" or "you'll get more traffic with this method". What it usually is, is a discussion of the underpinning "logic" and long-term security and viability of each method.

                When you use article directories for "easy rankings" and referral-traffic, you're necessarily and unavoidably more vulnerable to the adverse effects of any single algorithm change which reduces the authority of such sites.

                It's a straightforward case of fewer baskets/diversification = more risk, vs. more baskets/diversification = less risk.

                There's also the littler matter that not all of the traffic on the web originates at search-engines, and if you're relying 100% on search-engine rankings for your traffic, you're putting the traffic-harnessing side of your business in jeopardy. Not only that, but you're also missing out on the potential to get your articles visited/read by a site's "internal traffic" ... because, realistically, I don't go to EzineArticles and look there for articles on "how to dial-in Mark Knopfler's 1977 Stratocaster guitar tone on my VOX Valvetronix VT120+ amp" - but if I stumble across an article titled that while I'm surfing a guitarist-oriented website, then I'll definitely read it with some eagerness.
                Michael, I agree with pretty much everything you've said. Again, my original, and only bone of contention is the reward comparison of writing for syndication vs writing for click throughs and profit SPECIFIC TO EZA.
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    • Profile picture of the author Ian Jackson
      Originally Posted by Zeus66 View Post

      I'll weigh in...

      Backlinks
      For whatever reason, using a place like EZA for backlinks is not nearly as effective as it used to be. So I don't bother anymore.

      Syndication
      Not very effective overall if you start from a public article at EZA. I've always had much more success flipping that around. Go find some high authority blog in your niche and offer them a unique article (or guest post, same thing really) in exchange for a one-way link. This might not be the technical definition of "syndication" of content, but it has been much more effective for me in terms of both direct traffic and the power of the backlink juice.

      Direct Traffic (CTR)
      This is, in my experience, a big roller coaster ride. It depends so much on the niche you pick (not so much on the quality or pre-selling ability of the articles). In some niches you can write a piece of garbage and still get 15% CTR. In other niches (most of them, in fact) you can write an awesome pre-selling juggernaut and you'll be lucky to eek out 10% CTR. I'm talking about from EZA here.

      I think I like EZA as a traffic vehicle and only that. Reverse engineer it. Don't pick a niche and try to force traffic from EZA by writing masterpieces of pre-sellling and/or going for quantity of articles. Learn which niches get the most clicks because of the nature of the people interested in them (Jeremy listed several, but there are plenty more... think desperation). Find a way to monetize those niches (or build a list and monetize on the back end). THEN write pre-sell articles and submit them.

      That's the best way forward, in my humble opinion, if you're going to use EZA these days.

      John
      Hey John!

      ... please can you go back to your "Joe Satriani" pic , thanks!
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  • Profile picture of the author Dave Rodman
    Banned
    That's very good advice. I think my biggest problem with the "Article Syndication Syndicate" is the whole idea that there is one best way of doing things, or that something works for everyone.

    It reminds me of the online fitness gurus that make definitive statements like "Cardio will not help you lose weight" or "Eat only whole, natural foods", or "Intense interval training works best". That advice is totally hogwash. I used to be a personal trainer in college and I've seen people lose body fat by using a lot of different approaches. The only thing I was dogmatic about was measuring body fat composition weekly so you can make adjustments in diet.

    If someone was losing 3 pounds of body fat per week and felt good while eating a low-carb diet, who am I to argue? But at the same time, just because it worked for them, doesn't mean I should walk around recommending that to everyone else.
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    • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
      Originally Posted by Dave Rodman View Post

      I syndicate my content to other websites, but the effectiveness varies with each niche. I can use the same approach and it works with some niches, and sucks with others. To me, I'm more concerned about the relationship with the other site owner...much more valuable than sticking up some article on their site.
      Can't argue with you here, on either point. "Sticking up some article on their site", at least for me, is one way to get my foot in the door and start the relationship-building process.

      And one of the methods I use is posting articles to directories like EZA, and then watching to see which articles get picked up. Sometimes its a scraper/autoblog site, less often an authority site. Sometimes it's a site on the way up (IMO), and it may be a blogger I want writing guest posts for me as well.

      Posting articles on directories is one way of finding the up-and-comers before they get big and everyone and their brother wants a link from them.

      Originally Posted by schttrj View Post

      Damn, man! You got to play the field. Know times are changing every second. Syndication is NOT the main purpose of article marketing.
      I agree with you, but probably not for the reason you think. The main purpose of article marketing is attention. Interested eyeballs. Syndication done properly, which extends beyond simply piling stuff on the doorstep of any directory, is about attention.

      I'll take the backlinks, because SERPs are another way to gain that valuable attention, but I don't submit articles or syndicate them with the idea of gaining backlinks.

      Originally Posted by Dave Rodman View Post

      To your point above, I don't really agree. Article syndication is not a business model, asset based or otherwise. SEO might yield me better results than social media, but it doesn't make SEO my business model. You might say Article Syndication tends to give you results that last much longer than Article Marketing.
      You are right again. Article Syndication is not a business model. At this point, I don't get paid in cash for syndicated content. Syndication, like SEO, like using social media, like list-building, is a way to garner attention. Attention is a valuable commodity.
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      • Profile picture of the author schttrj
        Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe View Post

        I agree with you, but probably not for the reason you think. The main purpose of article marketing is attention. Interested eyeballs. Syndication done properly, which extends beyond simply piling stuff on the doorstep of any directory, is about attention.

        I'll take the backlinks, because SERPs are another way to gain that valuable attention, but I don't submit articles or syndicate them with the idea of gaining backlinks.
        Yeah...I am not saying syndication doesn't work! But it just cannot be the main purpose of article marketing. If we want to garner attention, there are better and DIRECT ways to do so. Article syndication is a very indirect and not-so-returning way to garner attention. That's just what I think.
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  • Profile picture of the author Ian Varnava
    It's weird, I've never seen the infamous Alexa Smith take anything personal on this forum, but she does seem a bit agitated in this particular thread. Maybe the post(er) which made her react in such a way should be somehow rewarded...lol. I thought her 'brand' was to always keep her cool no matter what, but I guess there's a first time for everything.
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  • Profile picture of the author Tom Johnston
    You are SO on the money here, I have exactly the same experience. Taking time to write an interesting, HELPFUL article yields the result of 20 crappy articles. If you have a strong call to action to boot, you're cruising.
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  • Profile picture of the author ArticlePrince
    I don't get why everyone is choosing sides. You can certainly use both. Want some examples? The world of warcraft niche doesn't care about an 800 word article, they want to know where to buy the guide. Right now! So they can go back to playing the game.

    On the other hand, as gas prices climb we'll see a resurgence of the products from a few years ago on how to modify your car's engine... those people (on average) want a longer article to make sure that they know what the heck they're getting into.

    I don't think that you have to go 'You know what, I'm done with 400 word articles, I'm going Isaac Asimov on this'; just think about your niche and see what works. If you're outsourcing, 90% of the time you'll be better of with the quickie articles, simply because most writers doesn't have the skill or to produce a lot of syndicating articles (obviously exceptions to this)
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  • Profile picture of the author Raindance
    The requirement of having an argument over these topics is very thin. They are outright very clear for anyone to understand. Submitting to article directories for the purpose of SEO and clickthroughs is self-explanatory. While syndication is a step ahead. It is going beyond those article directories for traffic. It is indeed a skill and only the best writers can succeed with it.

    The SEO and clickthroughs approach brings you traffic from only those 2 sources and rightly so because the content may not be of that quality to bring it more traffic from any other source. Whereas syndication is spreading your articles at multiple places that can garner more traffic to your site.

    Now the ony difference between them is the quality of the articles. If the articles were really good quality then even if they were submitted solely for SEO and clickthroughs, they'd still get syndicated.

    They don't need to stand against one another. Not every internet marketer can write like Thomas L. Friedman that their content is hungered by many websites. For those that can write well, syndication rocks. For those that can't, they should either just keep writing for traffic from directories or practice till they've reached an auspicious level of writing. If they can outsource then pay well and get syndication worth articles. (I had even seen a writer in the "Warriors for Hire" section who was writing magazine quality articles, he also had great experience.)

    We all write articles for the sole purpose of getting traffic and consequent sales. If someone does more with their articles then simply submitting it to article directories and label it as "syndication" then why is it raising eyebrows?
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  • Profile picture of the author Dwight Anthony
    Good advice, i've actually been writing more for readers lately and have seen better click throughs.
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  • Profile picture of the author celente
    soon as I dropped my crappy writers, and started focusing on quality articles....I gotta say the results were staggering.

    Especially in 2011...its all about link building and quality content. People have been sick of spam and affilate products thrown in their face. So you gotta do things out of the norm now. So I incorporate this in all my marketing pieces and niches that I am involved with.
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  • Profile picture of the author James Schramko
    Articles should be used to link back to your own blogs for
    seo and those blogs should be where the best content goes.

    If these article marketers had built blogs years ago they would
    have a saleable asset now.

    EZA is one fraction of seo which is a mere fraction of a quality traffic campaign
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  • Profile picture of the author Joewriter
    Originally Posted by ArticlePrince View Post

    First off, let me say that I have a fair bit of experience with article marketing and with EZA. Here's what a difference using EZA properly can be: in my first niche ever, I have 45 articles resulting in about 400 clicks. In the niche I did after that one, I wrote 7 articles and now have about 8k clicks. The difference?

    I wrote articles, not backlinks. You know what I mean! I'm not saying that your article has to be 1000+ words (although the scrapers like them), but focus on writing a greating article, not on getting a keyword off of your to write list. Why was this powerful? They got moved to the most viewed of the category, which got me more views. They were used by others or linked to, which helped my sales. After all, we put dollars in the bank, not CTR. Instead of seeing how many articles you can write per day (I used to do 30!), write one great article.

    I bet you'll get more traffic, more backlinks, and (depending on your site), more sales. Try it!
    A good way to think as far as the content is concern
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  • Profile picture of the author alcarrerra
    Serious Question:

    I understand the concept of creating articles and giving it away to EZ articles in hope of getting sales. I understand EZ articles is high ranked and has lots of traffic. I think it would be wiser and smarter to create your OWN EZ articles website in your NICHE and post your articles there. If you are pumping 1 to 3 articles a day on your own website, within 3-6 months you will have a good base targeted traffic and wouldn't have to worry about a 3rd party article website.

    In 1 year time, you will have at least 2000 targeted unique visitors per month to your website. Imagine after 2,3,4 years ... your website will become the authorized article website in the niche !

    Don't you rather build your own traffic/business 1st ?
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    • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
      Banned
      Originally Posted by alcarrerra View Post

      I understand EZ articles is high ranked and has lots of traffic.
      This is actually not so: EZA's home-page is PR6, but one's EZA articles are on PR-0 pages. Effectively, it isn't that high ranked at all.

      Thankfully, it's easy to outrank it, even with a new-ish site. It must be easy, because even I can do it, regularly and reliably, with all my niche sites, and I'm no SEO expert at all.

      Originally Posted by alcarrerra View Post

      I think it would be wiser and smarter to create your OWN EZ articles website in your NICHE and post your articles there.
      Certainly. The context of the site, if you do that, will clearly be more relevant and the backlinks probably worth much more.

      Originally Posted by alcarrerra View Post

      If you are pumping 1 to 3 articles a day on your own website, within 3-6 months you will have a good base targeted traffic and wouldn't have to worry about a 3rd party article website.
      For myself, that's very similar to what I do. But ...

      (i) I don't ever "worry" about a 3rd-party article website anyway: I simply continue to use a 3rd-party article website as well because it brings me in extra money, regularly, to do so;

      (ii) I don't write as many articles per day as that. I wouldn't be able to write them of the necessary quality to get them reliably syndicated to authority sites, if I wrote so much.

      Originally Posted by alcarrerra View Post

      In 1 year time, you will have at least 2000 targeted unique visitors per month to your website. Imagine after 2,3,4 years ... your website will become the authorized article website in the niche !
      Using your content as you suggest, by putting all your articles on your own site first and having them indexed there, and then re-using them in a big variety of other ways additionally including article directories, which are all an "extra", can do exactly this and more. An excellent business model.

      Originally Posted by alcarrerra View Post

      Don't you rather build your own traffic/business 1st ?
      Surprisingly, many people don't look at it that way.

      Sometimes they don't quite appreciate the enormously significant difference between duplicate content and syndicated content, and they genuinely imagine that re-using their content elsewhere will somehow detract from the SEO, authority-level, status, traffic or income of their own sites. Of course it isn't true at all, as so many of us here have reliably and repeatedly proven for ourselves in our own businesses, but it's what many people think. And there's a whole industry of people out there promoting "spinning software" and other junk, wanting them to believe it and promoting and reinforcing the idea, so that they need a "reason" to "change" their content before re-using it. So it's genuinely sometimes difficult for people to learn the truth.
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      • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
        Well, I've read Jeremy's and Alexa's comments on this hot topic and they're
        both right.

        I do both...syndication and writing for the simple purpose of getting immediate
        traffic.

        They both work. Syndication works better for me because, unlike a lot of hacks
        who try to pump out 250 words of nonsense to get syndicated, I can write.

        That is where Jeremy is dead on the money. You can't get your content
        syndicated if you're a hack. Yet, for many niches, a 250 word piece of crap
        article can get you tons of traffic if you know how to market that article.

        Like it or not, that's a fact of life. And this is coming from somebody who
        wouldn't write that kind of trash with a gun pointed to his head.

        The war between syndication and directory marketing is going to go on
        forever with neither side winning because both sides are right to a degree.

        By that I mean this.

        Syndication without killer content is pointless.

        Directory marketing without picking the right niches and knowing some little
        tricks is just as pointless.

        Again, I do both, so I know.

        And for all you folks who claim that either of these tactics (syndication or
        directory marketing) beats every other form of traffic generation out there,
        get a clue...they don't necessarily have to.

        I know people making a killing with:

        PPC
        Ad Buys
        JVs

        and so on. There are folks out there making 10 times what I make a year
        who never wrote or even outsourced an article a day in their life.

        So how about we all come down from our ivory towers and admit that there
        is more than one way to make a living in this business and that writing
        articles is just ONE of those ways.
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        • Profile picture of the author KenThompson
          Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

          So how about we all come down from our ivory towers and admit that there
          is more than one way to make a living in this business and that writing
          articles is just ONE of those ways.

          No kidding, Steve.

          But it won't happen since ivory towers are as old as mountains and dirt. I guess
          for some the obsession will never end.

          As long as inexperienced people post threads asking about it, because they really
          don't know, this will continue until the last newbie appears.

          Something to look forward to, eh?

          But that's what remotes are for, changing the channel or hitting mute.


          Ken
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        • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
          Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

          So how about we all come down from our ivory towers and admit that there
          is more than one way to make a living in this business and that writing
          articles is just ONE of those ways.

          I just want to point out that I as well as several others on the "directory" side of the debate have said repeatedly that syndication not only works, but should be the way things are done for certain niches and certain people.

          I don't think anyone with an ounce of intelligence would say any different...

          The syndication side of the argument however hasn't been quite so rational though, which is kind of goofy considering the amount of money some people make directory marketing.
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          • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
            Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

            I just want to point out that I as well as several others on the "directory" side of the debate have said repeatedly that syndication not only works, but should be the way things are done for certain niches and certain people.

            I don't think anyone with an ounce of intelligence would say any different...

            The syndication side of the argument however hasn't been quite so rational though, which is kind of goofy considering the amount of money some people make directory marketing.
            I'm not taking either side of this debate Jeremy as I have learned that there
            are so many ways to achieve an end goal that anybody who goes around
            saying that THIS is the way you MUST do it is just somebody with an agenda.

            Took me a long time to realize that as I used to be one of those die hard
            "this is the way you do it" marketers.

            Have eaten a lot of humble pie and learned a lot of hard lessons since those
            days.
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          • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
            Banned
            Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

            The syndication side of the argument however hasn't been quite so rational though
            Sorry you think that, Jeremy. You may (again) not be referring to me, but I was very quick to acknowledge that the "directory" side also works for some people.

            Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

            which is kind of goofy considering the amount of money some people make directory marketing.
            The money made by a small minority isn't in contention here at all (not by me, anyway). I think the few people who make a living with it have (like yourself) been doing it for a long time, and successfully built up a real head of steam, and some of them, I'm sure, do very well with it.
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  • Profile picture of the author Steve L
    let's face it... EZA is basically a content farm. you see how ehow got hit with the lastest panda update? EZA is sure to have the same fate don't you think?

    i believe one is better off publishing the content on their website these days. regardless, these days it seems like when i just forget about pleasing the search engines, and focus on content, my traffic continues to grow! check out this post i wrote regarding my organic search engine marketing strategy.
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  • Profile picture of the author Zeus66
    At the root of all of this is a very important lesson, especially for anyone just getting started and considering article writing and marketing...

    You have to understand and determine what your purpose is for each piece of content you put out there, whether it's going on an article directory, someone else's site, or your own site. Most people when they're new to all of this just write what amounts to information articles. They explain what the thing is, in other words. That's ok for some purposes (backlinks, for example, where impressing a reader is not your purpose). It can certainly be done quickly, so an information style article is great for speed writing when your purpose is quantity of articles.

    Notice how the word 'purpose' keeps popping up?

    Then there are those who write in order to establish themselves as an authority in their niche. Very different style of writing because your purpose is entirely different than when you want to pump out a lot of fast articles just to get the backlinks.

    And then there's my preferred purpose when I write and publish articles: direct traffic. When I sit down to write that type of article (or when I train someone I outsource to), I'm all about pre-selling without giving it all away in the article. It's not that easy to do! You need to play on emotional buttons in your reader without giving them a solution to their problem. You promise that solution as a result of clicking your resource box link at the end of the article. When you get that way of writing down pat, you will see an increase in CTR. It almost never fails, in my experience.

    So, before you ever write one word, first determine your purpose for writing an article. What do you hope to accomplish? Let that answer dictate your writing style.

    Fast, short for articles to get backlinks.
    Longer & more explanatory articles to establish yourself as an authority in your niche.
    Pre-selling with a "cliffhanger" ending to get visitors to your site.

    John
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    • Profile picture of the author myob
      There are better SEO methods for getting backlinks than slamming article directories, IMHO. For many reasons, writing for quality trumps slinging in quantity, if not for reputation alone. Even giving it your best shot for EZA will give dividends. Many of my articles have quite often been syndicated from this article directory as well as getting inquiries for writing content involving very large projects. Quality pays - big time.

      Yes, I have been one of them "article syndicators" for over 11 years, and until recently never really paid any attention to what to me was just some SEO gaming gimmick; spinning articles and slamming the article directories in hopes some of the sh** would stick enough to get backlinks or traffic. My opinion has not changed, even though some may seem to have been getting success using this spamming gimmick.

      Then came a spate of threads here proclaiming "Article Marketing is Dead". What was going on? My sales were at record levels from my article marketing and increasing every month. Apparently this is what began the "debates" between these marketing models.

      There has been apparent great success expressed for both models. But now, questions still remain to be answered to those just beginning or considering article marketing. In light of Panda, how many spun articles would it take to get backlinks and traffic, and how many syndicated articles does it take to do the same? I do know quite accurately how much revenue each article I write will bring in each month when distributed throughout my syndication network, and also what the devaluation would be for spinning.

      My niches have always been in some of the toughest and most competitive markets; the reason is because they are also extremely lucrative. Article syndication has been a very powerful tool for me in not only cracking these tough markets but successfully competing against the heavily financed marketing and deep-pocketed SEO professionals. And it does not take very many articles at all to grab a nice chunk of these markets when using the power of leverage through syndication.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mindz
    You Know Im Tired of These Threads . This All I Have To Say . Write Damn Good Content . That's It . At The End Of The Day . Be Damn Good At What You Do . The Bar Has Been Risen . Either You Are Going To Jump Over It Or Under It ! Case Closed .
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  • Profile picture of the author WinstonT
    Just a short tidbit about people writing articles.

    If you have no experience in that niche, do some research, and learn some technical terms. Personally, I think advice that isn't re-hashed (I'm sure people on the net see it all the time if they're searching for advice) gives rise to more click-through rates.

    Especially those that leave the audience hanging for more....
    I'm not saying you have to reach that kind of a level, but if you really can't do anything with the technicalities of the niche, it might sometimes be better to get a freelancer to do the job.
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  • Profile picture of the author MBizInc
    Hi.

    Well, you pretty much said everything.
    You know that video on youtube: the power of words?

    Well, it's all about words and the way you communicate with your reader. Try some Psychological theories such as influencing decisions, reverse Psychology, anything that can relate to the buyer/reader.

    I know it sounds less ethical, but if you wish to do great selling products, articles or your work, then you must have some knowledge on consumer's Psychology, on Ad Psychology etc.

    Best regards,

    Roxana
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    • Profile picture of the author WinstonT
      Originally Posted by MBizInc View Post

      Hi.

      Well, you pretty much said everything.
      You know that video on youtube: the power of words?

      Well, it's all about words and the way you communicate with your reader. Try some Psychological theories such as influencing decisions, reverse Psychology, anything that can relate to the buyer/reader.

      I know it sounds less ethical, but if you wish to do great selling products, articles or your work, then you must have some knowledge on consumer's Psychology, on Ad Psychology etc.

      Best regards,

      Roxana
      I second you, Roxana.

      While people might think of such marketing as obnoxious, unethical.. the truth is that most people are doing it on a daily basis... every single day, and you do not notice it.

      The way we speak. For example, we are able to sense sarcasm because of the linguistic structure, and the tone used. We are able to sense hostility through sentences, we are able to tell the difference between emotionally-charged words (tabloids) from professionally-distant words (doctors etc).

      Linguistic psychology is actually a pretty interesting field, and can yield very powerful results if you actually exercise it voluntarily. It's just basically using our natural linguistics in a forced, voluntary way to put meaning across to consumers. Scientifically speaking, it wouldn't be unethical.
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      • Profile picture of the author Dave Rodman
        Banned
        That would be an industry/product I could easily find syndication outlets for example in online ezine publishers targeting contractors, websites, offline trade journals, press releases, industrial supply newsletters, and even popular DIY magazines.
        You could find syndication outlets for anything, the question is whether the traffic would end up converting and be profitable. An audience composed of "Contractors" is not exactly targeted.
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        • Profile picture of the author myob
          Originally Posted by Dave Rodman View Post

          You could find syndication outlets for anything...
          You are beginning to learn.
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          • Profile picture of the author Dave Rodman
            Banned
            Originally Posted by myob View Post

            You are beginning to learn.
            Learn what? To syndicate articles for the sake of syndication? I thought the whole point of it was to convert visitors.

            If I sell an ebook about losing bodyfat, an article about interval training would be a perfect lead in.

            If I sell foosball tables, I could write articles on Creating the Perfect Basement and maybe get them syndicated, but what kind of conversion do you think you'd get in that situation?

            I'm more after results...not putting articles out there just for the sake of putting articles there.
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            • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
              Banned
              [DELETED]
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              • Profile picture of the author Dave Rodman
                Banned
                Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

                To convert visitors? Did you really think that? I'm beginning to appreciate that you really were being serious when you mentioned recently in another thread that you don't use article marketing at all, yourself. (I had actually wondered at the time if you were joking, just because you seem so very keen on discussing it for someone who professes no familiarity or experience with it, himself).
                I didn't realize converting visitors was considered a really strange concept. In Alexa's view, "Success=No conversions..opt-ins or otherwise!"

                No wonder we differ so much! I was measuring success by profit..you were measuring it by.....I don't know....views to your forum profile?
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                • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
                  Banned
                  Originally Posted by Dave Rodman View Post

                  I didn't realize converting visitors was considered a really strange concept.
                  Neither did I.

                  Neither did I say it was.

                  I simply pointed out that it isn't the purpose of syndication itself, which it isn't.

                  Originally Posted by Dave Rodman View Post

                  I was measuring success by profit..you were measuring it by.....I don't know....views to your forum profile?
                  Your sarcasm speaks volumes, Dave. It speaks nearly as much as your admission that you don't use article marketing, yourself. :rolleyes:

                  Originally Posted by Dave Rodman View Post

                  In Alexa's view, "Success=No conversions..opt-ins or otherwise!"
                  Sorry, but this is simply too idiotic for a response. When the discussion becomes as sarcastic as this, it's time for a break from it.
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                  • Profile picture of the author myob
                    Everything has its limit - iron ore cannot be educated into gold.

                    - Mark Twain
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                    • Profile picture of the author Dave Rodman
                      Banned
                      Sorry, but this is simply too idiotic for a response. When the discussion becomes as sarcastic as this, it's time for a break from it
                      I expected that response. The ole' "I can't be bothered to explain this". More like "I can't be bothered to explain this, cause I'm not sure how I'd explain that conversions don't matter".
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                      • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
                        Banned
                        Originally Posted by Dave Rodman View Post

                        I'm not sure how I'd explain that conversions don't matter.
                        It seems we agree that that's a ludicrous assertion. I have no need (or ability) to try to justify it, though, because it certainly doesn't even begin to resemble anything that I've ever said, at all. It's just something you claim I've said - thankfully, that's very different indeed.

                        Originally Posted by Dave Rodman View Post

                        The ole' "I can't be bothered to explain this".
                        I didn't say it, Dave. Why would I want to "explain" it? :confused:
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                        • Profile picture of the author drmani
                          Originally Posted by NY1 View Post

                          Also, getting an in body contextual link from a true authority site is not easy. They check stuff and have an editorial/journalistic integrity of some degree. Which is why those who are affiliates don't really stand much of a chance. (and why I call BS) One of the first things one (editor wise) does when they are looking at an article to be published on an authority site, is to see where any and all links lead back to. And they then check where the links on *that* page lead to.

                          To a typical info product sales page? Buh bye. To an Amazon affilaite sales page? Buh bye. Squeeze Page? No no.

                          Allowing those kinds of things is what leads to PR nightmares and alienates long standing readers of an authority site.

                          Your article can be well written, 1200 words, and if it leads to a CB, Amazon, or any other affiliate product/site... delete.
                          Tiny quibble with a comment I otherwise fully agree with.

                          When you syndicate content to an authority site, you don't link
                          back to a sales letter, an affiliate link etc. You link back to
                          YOUR mini-authority site... which is loaded with content you're
                          the expert on.

                          That's the way to leverage syndicated content at that level.

                          You don't go straight for the direct sale. You go for the branding,
                          the reputation building, the perception of authority... which then
                          leads to the sale.

                          If I were going to syndicate content to 'The Motley Fool' (which,
                          incidentally, I have done in the early 2000's ), I would link
                          back to a page on my site which is INFORMATIVE - and where I also
                          have a list building module, maybe an ecommerce module, but as
                          ACCESSORIES, and not the primary content.

                          As for authority sites not linking to a page/site which points to
                          an Amazon or Clickbank sales page or promotes products and services,
                          that's plain wrong. Many authority sites will do so PROVIDED the
                          selling isn't 'in your face' on the LANDING PAGE of the article
                          link.


                          I've been a Guide on About.com and our editorial guidelines were
                          similar too. It's a Web #7 property, so by any definition, it's
                          a TRUE and REAL 'Authority' site.

                          Just a small clarification. But writing for syndication certainly
                          isn't the same process as writing for article directories, which I
                          believe is your primary point - and well taken.

                          All success
                          Dr.Mani
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                      • Profile picture of the author DireStraits
                        Originally Posted by Dave Rodman View Post

                        I expected that response. The ole' "I can't be bothered to explain this". More like "I can't be bothered to explain this, cause I'm not sure how I'd explain that conversions don't matter".
                        What's to explain, Dave?

                        Those who do article syndication usually cannot do "pre-selling" or much that directly influences their conversions within an article itself - other than by dishing out a plentiful supply of useful information and/or entertainment and keeping the "style" of content relatively consistent through the entire sales process - without adversely affecting their syndication potential.

                        Writing for syndication - where your articles typically have to first undergo human scrutiny and be of a certain standard - is very different to restricting your content to article directories so that they can achieve high search-engine rankings as determined by a big machine that has no appreciation for nor the ability to discern good, useful and relevant content off its own merits.

                        So while you might be able to "write for conversions and/or clicks", those doing syndication will often avoid it and instead just opt for "wowing" readers into clicking through by providing a solid, helpful and entertaining reading experience.

                        Conversion rates typically don't enter the equation until later in the process when visitors have actually landed on a site and/or opted-in and/or read your emails and/or clicked an affiliate link or what not.

                        How can you measure conversions of your syndicated articles, anyway, when they're published on sites, in newsletters (or even in print publications) whose traffic/reader volume cannot be accurately and dynamically measured? You need to know how many people have read to be able to measure what proportion of them have taken action. Possible on an article directory, but not necessarily when your content is on someone else's site and you aren't provided with any such data.

                        But since you mention the importance of conversions in general, can I ask you a question?

                        Why are you using EzineArticles and/or other article directories for the purpose you've explained above, in an earlier post, if conversions are of such importance to you? Because, I mean, you're unavoidably losing a good portion of your readers to the distractions of advertisements and other such links on that site. Why not just rank those articles in the SERPs directly on your own site and receive 100% of the visitors who click through?

                        On the basis of that, I could perhaps be forgiven for assuming that conversions aren't exactly at the forefront of your mind, no?
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                        • Profile picture of the author Dave Rodman
                          Banned
                          Those who do article syndication usually cannot do "pre-selling" or much that directly influences their conversions within an article itself - other than by dishing out a plentiful supply of useful information and/or entertainment and keeping the "style" of content relatively consistent through the entire sales process - without adversely affecting their syndication potential.
                          Oh come on now. Since we were talking about Tom Venuto as a poster child for someone that understands syndication, can you honestly tell me that this article doesn't give useful information AND presell his product? By my count, it's on at least 2800 websites, including many "real websites".

                          Fat Burner Supplements: The Unadulterated Truth

                          Providing good content doesn't automatically mean that you can no longer presell products.

                          And how do you measure conversions? It's pretty simple. Google analytics will do it without any effort on your part. I can view the traffic a website sends me and drill down into the page on that site, along with revenue and conversion rate.

                          Real simple.
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                          • Profile picture of the author DireStraits
                            Originally Posted by Dave Rodman View Post

                            Oh come on now. Since we were talking about Tom Venuto as a poster child for someone that understands syndication, can you honestly tell me that this article doesn't give useful information AND presell his product? By my count, it's on at least 2800 websites, including many "real websites".
                            I know it can be done, but it's not so easy when you're trying to balance the appeal of an article to other publishers as it when you can write a flagrantly promotional article for submission to a site like EZA. Different publishers have different criteria. Some will not accept anything with a whiff of self-promotion. Others are perhaps more tolerant. I'm just saying that when syndication is concerned, you have to consider the wishes of other webmasters - not just your own and the (usually very low) expectations of article directories.

                            Originally Posted by Dave Rodman View Post

                            And how do you measure conversions? It's pretty simple. Google analytics will do it without any effort on your part. I can view the traffic a website sends me and drill down into the page on that site, along with revenue and conversion rate.

                            Real simple.
                            LOL. Except it's not Dave. Try again.

                            This whole thread is about harnessing targeted traffic through article marketing/syndication and article directory marketing, not about what happens with the traffic once it reaches your site.

                            Question still stands: how do you propose to work out your "click-through rate" when you do not know the number of views an article has had on someone else's site? Google Analytics might tell you how many referrals an article has sent you and from where, but it doesn't tell you how many times it was displayed/read. Unless you know that, you cannot know your CTR and therefore cannot take steps to maximise it (if indeed maximising it always results in an increase in one's sales, anyway - which it doesn't, necessarily).

                            Can you please answer my other question now, anyway? I'm genuinely intrigued. Why, in the case of the example you gave in an earlier post, and if "conversions" are of such great importance to you, do you insist on utilising article directories for your rankings when you will inevitably lose a significant proportion of all visitors to advertisements and other distractions on said site?

                            I'm only asking because you keep going on about efficiency - using the "most suitable approach for the job" - and conversions and the like, and yet, on the face of it, it seems you're going out of your way to make your whole process far less efficient than it needs to be, for no good reason?
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                • Profile picture of the author Grace Hawthorne
                  Banned
                  Originally Posted by Dave Rodman View Post

                  I didn't realize converting visitors was considered a really strange concept. In Alexa's view, "Success=No conversions..opt-ins or otherwise!"

                  No wonder we differ so much! I was measuring success by profit..you were measuring it by.....I don't know....views to your forum profile?
                  Hi Dave, this is my first post, so go easy on me, please! I have just one little question. Are you having success with the methods you use?
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                  • Profile picture of the author Dave Rodman
                    Banned
                    Originally Posted by Grace Hawthorne View Post

                    Hi Dave, this is my first post, so go easy on me, please! I have just one little question. Are you having success with the methods you use?
                    Success by my definition? Income and Equity? Yes.

                    Success by Alexa's definitions...not sure.
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                    • Profile picture of the author Grace Hawthorne
                      Banned
                      Originally Posted by Dave Rodman View Post

                      Success by my definition? Income and Equity? Yes.
                      Yes, this is how I measure business success. Could you say what you do with each article you write that is translating into this success?
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                      • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
                        Banned
                        Originally Posted by Grace Hawthorne View Post

                        Originally Posted by Dave Rodman View Post

                        Success by my definition? Income and Equity? Yes.
                        Yes, this is how I measure business success. Could you say what you do with each article you write that is translating into this success?
                        Hi Grace, welcome to the forum.

                        Please excuse my mentioning (again), in an attempt to provide some context for the "information" here, that Dave has actually stated quite unambiguously in other threads and discussions here that he isn't an article marketer at all, and has no direct, personal experience of it, himself. He certainly seems to have an extravagant fondness for "discussing the theory", but there's no law against that.
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                        • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
                          Originally Posted by Dave Rodman View Post

                          Learn what? To syndicate articles for the sake of syndication? I thought the whole point of it was to convert visitors.

                          If I sell an ebook about losing bodyfat, an article about interval training would be a perfect lead in.

                          If I sell foosball tables, I could write articles on Creating the Perfect Basement and maybe get them syndicated, but what kind of conversion do you think you'd get in that situation?

                          I'm more after results...not putting articles out there just for the sake of putting articles there.
                          And if you sell padded moldings for corners, you can write articles about making homes safe for babies, elders suffering dementia, those subject to seizures, etc.

                          Admittedly, this type of article probably won't result in direct retail orders. It would do better syndicated to contractor associations, home center owners, etc. for re-publication to their subscribers. Kind of a syndication two-step...

                          Often, at least for me, the goal of syndication is to reach audiences I can't reach directly.

                          @NY1:

                          I'd love to see the editorial standards that led you to make the many assertions of what 99% of what the people on this forum do or believe.

                          Would you care to publish your research methodology?

                          Too bad your first post here was full of such wild assertions stated as facts. You also made some valid points, but tainted by your earlier statements...
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                          • Profile picture of the author myob
                            Well, I'm feeling rather snooty today so here you go. One of my niches is targeting the medical field with regular contributions to a number of clinical journals which include online editions.

                            These articles discuss features and comparisons among various brands of medical diagnostic equipment. My niche website has affiliate links to related Amazon products and other medical equipment affiliate sites.

                            As a direct result of these articles, medical directors and purchasing agents are regular customers. Even though my site is hopelessly buried under thousands of pages in the SERPS, I've sold four MRI machines this year alone at 10% commission, plus other related products and supplies.

                            If you've been shopping around lately for MRI machines, you'll get the idea of why I like article syndication so much. Try doing that with article directory marketing or spinning and splattering nonsense for backlinks.
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                            • Profile picture of the author Grace Hawthorne
                              Banned
                              Originally Posted by myob View Post

                              Well, I'm feeling rather snooty today so here you go. One of my niches is targeting the medical field with regular contributions to a number of clinical journals which include online editions.

                              These articles discuss features and comparisons among various brands of medical diagnostic equipment. My niche website has affiliate links to related Amazon products and other medical equipment affiliate sites.

                              As a direct result of these articles, medical directors and purchasing agents are regular customers. Even though my site is hopelessly buried under thousands of pages in the SERPS, I've sold four MRI machines this year alone at 10% commission, plus other related products and supplies.

                              If you've been shopping around lately for MRI machines, you'll get the idea if why I like article syndication so much. Try doing that with article directory marketing or spinning and splattering nonsense for backlinks.
                              What is a good guide to learn how to syndicate my articles on sites where I can sell big-ticket items like you are doing, Paul? Are you self-taught?
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                              • Profile picture of the author myob
                                Originally Posted by Grace Hawthorne View Post

                                What is a good guide to learn how to syndicate my articles on sites where I can sell big-ticket items like you are doing, Paul? Are you self-taught?
                                Hi Grace,

                                I don't want to detract from this great debate that's going on here. Besides, it cannot all be explained here in one post anyway. But my model is nothing much more than an expansion of what others especially Alexa have been teaching. Do a forum search for "article syndication" and read especially hers and Michael's posts.
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                                • Profile picture of the author Grace Hawthorne
                                  Banned
                                  Originally Posted by myob View Post

                                  Hi Grace,

                                  I don't want to detract from this great debate that's going on here. Besides, it cannot all be explained here in one post anyway. But my model is nothing much more than an expansion of what others especially Alexa have been teaching. Do a forum search for "article syndication" and read especially hers and Michael's posts.
                                  Oh sorry, I didn't intend to take this off-topic. Thank you just the same, Paul!
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                                  • Profile picture of the author myob
                                    Originally Posted by Grace Hawthorne View Post

                                    Oh sorry, I didn't intend to take this off-topic. Thank you just the same, Paul!
                                    Just don't let it happen again; we're trying to have a fight here.
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                          • Profile picture of the author drmani
                            Originally Posted by NY1 View Post

                            ... my main point actually was that what so many people snobbily refer to as "proper article marketing" is nothing to be snobby, posh, or put on airs about.

                            Get syndicated on WSJ, you can be pompous about it for a minute or two, you've earned it.

                            Get syndicated on a site where anyone who takes their game one little step above EZA... no no.

                            ...

                            For every article syndication snob making $ 10 or 15K a month their way, there are just as many people making their money in another way.

                            To call one proper and the other not is just pompous and doesn't fly in my book.

                            SOMEONE had to say this. I'm glad (and relieved) it was you, not me

                            Great post, thanks

                            All success
                            Dr.Mani
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                          • Profile picture of the author Chris Worner
                            Originally Posted by NY1 View Post

                            Get syndicated on WSJ, you can be pompous about it for a minute or two, you've earned it.
                            As for your assertions of people talking a good game and not being able to prove it, riddle me this;

                            Why would anybody bother to try to prove anything to you, Terry, Jeremy or anybody else for that matter, when you have already made your mind up on the subject and are ready to discredit any evidence put forward?

                            Not to mention, as the accuser, the burden of proof is on you.

                            I personally find it quite amusing that you and your ilk have the arrogance to come into a thread, call a group of people liars and snobs, and then expect them to prove you wrong. LMAO.

                            Since your all so sure of yourselves, I wonder if you are actually men of your words and prepared to practice what you preach by opening yourselves up and exposing the niches you work in and providing links to your content, it's called leading by example.

                            I can't wait to see this niche Dave purports isn't suitable for syndication and has made millions from.

                            Chris
                            Signature

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                          • Profile picture of the author tpw
                            Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe View Post

                            Originally Posted by NY1 View Post

                            The 99 percent thing is used to stress a point. It's commonly called a 'figure of speech.'

                            I'm familiar with 'figures of speech', NY1. This particular figure is a sore point for me, because it's abused so often.

                            Your use was probably far enough out there that I shouldn't have reacted the way I did, but I get buried under pleas for money from groups claiming "1 out of 5" whatevers suffer from something, which will magically be cured if you donate $x,xxx. When people start throwing exact stats at me on things that exact stats can't exist for, it trips my trigger.

                            John: You do realize that 134% of all statistics are made up on the fly to satisfy one particular view over another, don't you?


                            NY1: There is an article in the Wall Street Journal website. There are also a number of articles in the About.com website, which happens to be owned by the New York Times.

                            You want me to prove it to you, by showing you links where you can verify for yourself that the articles were syndicated through the online syndication channels discussed in this thread.

                            But the deal is that when I was ghost-writing for clients, I was frequently bound by a NDA (Non Disclosure Agreement). My clients did not want me undermining their credibility in the marketplace, by making known that I had written some or all of their articles.

                            I know what articles that I wrote for clients, and in many instances, I know where those articles were published.

                            And that is going to have to be "good enough", because I am not going to throw aside my integrity to give you a moment of lucidity.

                            In your book, that means that I must be lying, because I am unwilling to show you the details...

                            And if that is correct, so be it...

                            I have nothing to prove to you.

                            Either I am credible, and you can take my words at face value... OR, I am not credible, and you will NEVER take me for my word on anything that I say now or in the future...

                            If I am not credible to you, that simply means that you will never be one of my customers -- ever... And that is fine, because maybe I don't want everyone to buy goods or services from me...

                            I can show you articles that I had written and syndicated in my own name, but you will not see those articles on the WSJ website or About.com.

                            Why not?

                            Because I write my own articles in the Internet Marketing niche, and when was the last time we read an IM article in the Wall Street Journal?

                            Never?

                            Exactly.

                            You can Google my name, but don't confuse me with the movie producer, the deep-sea fishing guy, the professor at a university in Lousianna, the guy who builds boats for a living, the professional percussionist, or the head of the Ohio Republican Party, all whom share a name with me.

                            When you see that my articles have been syndicated and published in many well-respected websites in my target-niche, then I might gain some credibility with you.

                            But if you only utilize sites of the stature of the WSJ, the NYT and other known-authority websites as the measuring stick by which to decide my credibility, then you will be sorely disappointed, since I have never aimed to get published in those websites for the sake of MY business model.
                            Signature
                            Bill Platt, Oklahoma USA, PlattPublishing.com
                            Publish Coloring Books for Profit (WSOTD 7-30-2015)
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                            • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
                              Banned
                              Originally Posted by tpw View Post

                              When you see that my articles have been syndicated and published in many well-respected websites in my target-niche, then I might gain some credibility with you.
                              That and the fact that you hold regular sessions of group harmonica practice in Oklahoma ...
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                              • Profile picture of the author Coyotex
                                Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

                                That and the fact that you hold regular sessions of group harmonica practice in Oklahoma ...
                                I LOVE the harmonica! LOL! Come to Florida and we'll have practice here!
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                                • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                                  NY1, for whatever it's worth...I agree with your last post 100%

                                  But what da yuh expect? I'm from New Joysey.
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                                  • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
                                    Banned
                                    Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

                                    what da yuh expect? I'm from New Joysey.
                                    Nobody's poifect.

                                    I wouldn't worry about it, if I were you: Bill Platt's from somewhere called Oklahoma ...
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                                    • Profile picture of the author DireStraits
                                      Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

                                      Nobody's poifect.
                                      Wow, so much p*ss-taking, here. Can't we all just sit down together and enjoy a nice, hot cup of quawfee?

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                                      • Profile picture of the author myob
                                        Originally Posted by DireStraits View Post

                                        Wow, so much p*ss-taking, here. Can't we all just sit down together and enjoy a nice, hot cup of quawfee?

                                        And some pudding. The proof is in the pudding. :p
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                                        • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
                                          Banned
                                          "The proof of an idea is not to be sought in the soundness of the man fathering it, but in the soundness of the idea itself. One asks of a pudding, not if the cook who offers it is a good woman, but if the pudding itself is good."

                                          (H.L. Mencken)
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                                          • Profile picture of the author paulie888
                                            Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

                                            "The proof of an idea is not to be sought in the soundness of the man fathering it, but in the soundness of the idea itself. One asks of a pudding, not if the cook who offers it is a good woman, but if the pudding itself is good."

                                            (H.L. Mencken)
                                            Agreed, it's easy to take sides based on who our favorites are, but we really have to maintain some impartial objectivity here, given the passionate and heated debates this group has had over this topic in the past.
                                            Signature
                                            >>> Features Jason Fladlien, John S. Rhodes, Justin Brooke, Sean I. Mitchell, Reed Floren and Brad Gosse! <<<
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                                            • Profile picture of the author tpw
                                              Originally Posted by paulie888 View Post

                                              Agreed, it's easy to take sides based on who our favorites are, but we really have to maintain some impartial objectivity here, given the passionate and heated debates this group has had over this topic in the past.

                                              Spoken as a typical Oklahoman would speak...
                                              Signature
                                              Bill Platt, Oklahoma USA, PlattPublishing.com
                                              Publish Coloring Books for Profit (WSOTD 7-30-2015)
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                                              • Profile picture of the author paulie888
                                                Originally Posted by tpw View Post

                                                Spoken as a typical Oklahoman would speak...
                                                Bill, I keep hearing about the good old boys up there in Stillwater, is it really as bad as everyone says it is?
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                                                • Profile picture of the author tpw
                                                  Originally Posted by paulie888 View Post

                                                  Bill, I keep hearing about the good old boys up there in Stillwater, is it really as bad as everyone says it is?

                                                  It is only bad when you are on the receiving end of a series of swift kicks from several pair of cowboy boots.
                                                  Signature
                                                  Bill Platt, Oklahoma USA, PlattPublishing.com
                                                  Publish Coloring Books for Profit (WSOTD 7-30-2015)
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                                                  • Profile picture of the author myob
                                                    Originally Posted by tpw View Post

                                                    It is only bad when you are on the receiving end of a series of swift kicks from several pair of cowboy boots.
                                                    Or being hit with a few cowchips?
                                                    Originally Posted by tpw View Post

                                                    ....Let the chips fall where they may...
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                        • Profile picture of the author Grace Hawthorne
                          Banned
                          Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

                          Hi Grace, welcome to the forum.

                          Please excuse my mentioning (again), in an attempt to provide some context for the "information" here, that Dave has actually stated quite unambiguously in other threads and discussions here that he isn't an article marketer at all, and has no direct, personal experience of it, himself. He certainly seems to have an extravagant fondness for "discussing the theory", but there's no law against that.
                          Thanks for the welcome, Alexa!
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            • Profile picture of the author birdman87
              [DELETED]
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  • Profile picture of the author Coyotex
    After actually listening to people in this forum, I honestly believe that a good living CAN be made with articles. BUT, what I still don't understand is the difference between article directory marketing, article marketing and article syndication.

    Alexa helped me out on another thread and I thank her for it, but after reading this thread, I back to being confused.

    My understanding (and this is all within my head, not anyone elses) is that "article directory marketing" is writing an article and having a link pointing back to other articles you've written. If that's the case, what's the point? To be popular? I don't get it. (I'm coming from a perspective of making money with your articles)

    That being said, isn't the purpose of writing an article to have it in as many places as it can be? Isn't that article syndication?

    So, for the purposes of understanding this whole article thing, please someone explain to me why anyone would write an article for the purposes of having it point back to more articles instead of, well, anywhere else?

    I'll admit, I may also be looking WAY to in debth with all this stuff. Maybe?
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    • Profile picture of the author Chris Worner
      Originally Posted by Coyotex View Post

      After actually listening to people in this forum, I honestly believe that a good living CAN be made with articles. BUT, what I still don't understand is the difference between article directory marketing, article marketing and article syndication.

      Alexa helped me out on another thread and I thank her for it, but after reading this thread, I back to being confused.

      My understanding (and this is all within my head, not anyone elses) is that "article directory marketing" is writing an article and having a link pointing back to other articles you've written. If that's the case, what's the point? To be popular? I don't get it. (I'm coming from a perspective of making money with your articles)

      That being said, isn't the purpose of writing an article to have it in as many places as it can be? Isn't that article syndication?

      So, for the purposes of understanding this whole article thing, please someone explain to me why anyone would write an article for the purposes of having it point back to more articles instead of, well, anywhere else?

      I'll admit, I may also be looking WAY to in debth with all this stuff. Maybe?
      Hello Coyotex,

      Article Directory Marketing = Writing for clicks/writing for direct traffic

      Article Marketing = syndication(Although people confuse it with directory marketing)

      There are many other forms of article marketing such as guest blogging as well.

      Chris
      Signature

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  • Profile picture of the author AddictionHelper
    ArticlePrince I totally agree with this concept, although it is an extremely hard concept to follow when you know that creating 30 articles will get you at least 30 backlinks, when 1 article will only get you one back link.

    But I personally understand this concept because like you I have changed from writing many articles a day to just a couple great articles - and you really do get so much more traffic.
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  • Profile picture of the author DireStraits
    Originally Posted by NY1 View Post

    Lol, why is it that when a niche gets shown not to be supportive of widespread (legit) syndication, it gets disqualified as not being a real niche?

    If that's how you "win" your arguments, then you are more ignorant than intelligent.

    Grocer: Every box of eggs has a dozen in it.

    Customer: This one has 6 and this one has 18.

    Grocer: Those don't count

    Look, I hate the diet supplements niche, but it IS a niche (huge one).

    Just because you don't like a niche, does not mean that it is not one. And just because it puts a hole in your argument does not make it not one.

    Customer: All IMers are scammers.

    Creator: I'm not.

    Customer: You don't count

    That kind of argument stopped holding water back in 3rd grade.


    For the person that asked what my definition of an authority site is... it's this:

    A site that OTHER authority sites reference as an authority site. Unsolicited. Usually in the context of providing further explanation or sometimes action on a topic briefly covered on their site, but one that can be better fulfilled on another site.

    I.E. Yahoo Finance an already accepted authority/reference site links to Motley Fool dot com for further explanation on a breaking stock news piece or an editorial.

    Yahoo's already accepted status as an authority and using Motley Fool as a further authority on a particular subject... is one of the many things that helped Motley Fool become an authority. Of course, that happened YEARS ago, but it's just an example.

    It would not matter if 1000 sh%tty blogs link to Motley Fool, it becomes an authority when OTHER authority sites link as a reference (unpaid). SEO has nothing to do with it, really.

    Of course, many people do manipulate perceived authority, but that's just artificial perception, not the reality of it.

    I don't count a site as an "authority" because of it's SERP, how many backlinks or it's PR.

    True Authority sites are pretty clear to the naked eye. You don't need to know a thing about SEO or have a backlink checker to spot a true authority site.

    Someone who is a true authority on a subject can look at a site and know it is one. They can also look at a highly manipulated one and know that it's not.

    Also, getting an in body contextual link from a true authority site is not easy. They check stuff and have an editorial/journalistic integrity of some degree. Which is why those who are affiliates don't really stand much of a chance. (and why I call BS) One of the first things one (editor wise) does when they are looking at an article to be published on an authority site, is to see where any and all links lead back to. And they then check where the links on *that* page lead to.

    To a typical info product sales page? Buh bye. To an Amazon affilaite sales page? Buh bye. Squeeze Page? No no.

    Allowing those kinds of things is what leads to PR nightmares and alienates long standing readers of an authority site.

    Your article can be well written, 1200 words, and if it leads to a CB, Amazon, or any other affiliate product/site... delete.

    I've seen a few authority sites make a mistake of allowing a link to a shoddy/sketchy sales page... and the comment section went buzzing and they did not allow that to happen again.

    You can get syndicated on lower level, "authority" sites that really have just been search engine manipulated, but calling that proper syndication is like calling a Toyota Corolla with a leather interior a luxury car.

    It's just a "prettier" form of what article directory marketers are doing and a little more proactive, but deserves not a pompous attitude, a high horse, or anything close to that.

    And in all honesty, it's SE manipulation, so you "white hatters" are black hatters that just think you are not. Nothing wrong with it, but you just want to manipulate links just like the rest of the lot. Admit it. Be done with it.

    And don't profess to have secret channels of true authority sites syndicating your affiliate articles.

    The cashier who steals $ 10 a day for a year is just as guilty as the guy who runs into the store and takes $2,000 all at once.
    *sigh*

    I was in the process of refuting your earlier post, actually, but between eating my dinner, simultaneously having a debate with Dave Rodman, and trying steer my head around all the other avenues down which this thread has taken a detour, I didn't quite get round to it yet.

    Anyway, there is little good to come from this thread - this much is clear. Too many people talking at cross purposes, sub-arguments/debates spawning from larger arguments/debates, etc. If ever a thread could be described as murder, this would be it.

    So "forget it", I guess.

    The top and bottom of the whole issue, for me, is that I really don't give a rat's rear what people do or don't do, think or don't think. They can read the posts of those with transparently bad logic and think what they will about them. They can forgo article syndication in favour of article directory marketing if they think it's the better option or that "syndication is a conspiracy". They can forgo ranking their articles on their own sites in favour of ranking them on some ad-plastered, traffic-eating blackhole of an article directory, if they think they're gaining from it.

    "Pip, pip - cheerio", fellas.
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  • Profile picture of the author Coyotex
    I must be missing something BIG time now. (maybe that's been my problem the whole time with this article stuff!)

    If "article directory marketing" is when you offer a click through to your website, what is supposed to happen with article syndication?

    My understanding if writing ANY article is to market yourself somehow, right? So, wouldn't a link to your site do that? Wouldn't writing and article with that link do that as well?

    I've written a TON or articles and haven't had the success as I would like, so I'm trying to understand this as I'm thinking my lack of success stems around my understanding of marketing.

    Can someone please clear this up for me?
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    • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Coyotex View Post

      Can someone please clear this up for me?
      I can try.

      "Article directory marketing" means using article directories for their own traffic (and backlinks), the idea being that potential customers put into a search-engine as their search-terms a keyword from one of your articles, find the article directory article listed in the search-engine's results-pages, click on the link, read your article in the directory, and then (apart from the people who click on an AdSense ad in the directory, look at other articles there, or just "don't get that far") read your resource-box, click on the link in that, and arrive at your site (where they can opt in, and/or buy something, and/or contact you, or whatever you're using your site for and want them to do).

      For myself (and for many here), we'd much prefer them to do that without the article directory (where we lose many), and find instead the article on our own site, so that their first click brings them direct to our own site.

      "Article syndication" = getting your article re-published on other sites (and/or in ezines/newsletters etc.) which already have their own targeted traffic (as well as usually far better backlinks than you can get from an article directory, where the backlinks are non-context-relevant, PR-0 backlinks).

      An article directory is a depository of "available online content" which webmasters (and ezine and newsletter compilers) can use as a source for articles for their sites (and ezines and newsletters). In this sense, it can be used as a "stepping-stone" to get beyond article directories.

      The type of articles used for "article directory marketing" tend to be shorter ones and "written for clicks", i.e. designed to maximise the chances of potential customers reading the entire article and clicking on the link and getting to your own site. Without necessarily any thought at all for whether anyone else will want to re-publish the article in front of their own already-targeted traffic, on their own well-established high-PR pages, or whatever else. They're often "salesy".

      Article directories are only one small, optional part of "the syndication model". However, they can be a very useful part. They're what started off my entire business. Many of the webmasters and ezine compilers who now routinely re-publish my articles with my links are people I originally "met" because they syndicated my articles from an article directory (i.e. they used it as a directory, for its original purpose). I also have many other arrangements for the syndication of my articles, though - one wouldn't want to depend on article directories alone. But they're still very useful and very profitable for me, used this way, in all 8 of my niches.

      (I'm actually talking mostly about EZA, in my case, when I say "directories").

      Articles written for syndication tend to be written a different way, and in a different style. I've explained the basics of "writing for syndication" in this thread - maybe a helpful thread for you to read, Andrew?

      Hope this helps.
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    • Profile picture of the author drmani
      I must be missing something BIG time now. (maybe that's been my problem the whole time with this article stuff!)

      If "article directory marketing" is when you offer a click through to your website, what is supposed to happen with article syndication?

      My understanding if writing ANY article is to market yourself somehow, right? So, wouldn't a link to your site do that? Wouldn't writing and article with that link do that as well?

      I've written a TON or articles and haven't had the success as I would like, so I'm trying to understand this as I'm thinking my lack of success stems around my understanding of marketing.

      Can someone please clear this up for me?
      Drew, I tried to help clarify - with this thread - what each term means.

      "Article directory marketing" (a term I find splitting hairs, btw) is about article marketing using article directories - for whatever end point (syndication, back links, direct traffic, branding, sales etc.)

      Article syndication, broadly, is getting your article into as many locations in front of as many readers as you can, by having them distributed across multiple channels.

      My understanding if writing ANY article is to market yourself somehow, right?
      ABSOLUTELY right. That's why 'article marketing' is a generic term, which
      can be split into as many pieces as you wish, without altering the basic
      tenet - which is that you are marketing through articles.

      The nuance that isn't always clear is this... syndication is a form of
      LEVERAGE.

      It's the difference between working once and being paid once for it,
      versus working once and being paid over and over many times for it.

      You create content - and publish it. You get a certain audience. You
      get it syndicated. Without creating anything new, you get a new (often
      much wider) audience for the same content.

      Do it well, frequently, and effectively, and you won't have to create
      too much content before you're widely known and acknowledged as an
      expert.

      At that point, many interesting things start to happen.

      That's the BIG point of content syndication

      Hope this helps.

      All success
      Dr.Mani
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  • Profile picture of the author Steve L
    i hate having to rank an eza and then have to worry about conversion rates to my site. i just publish on my site these days and i get great rankings. of course my main blog is in a unique niche so it's easy to rank for long tail keywords, and there are lots of them.
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  • Profile picture of the author Grace Hawthorne
    Banned
    Originally Posted by NY1 View Post

    Lol, why is it that when a niche gets shown not to be supportive of widespread (legit) syndication, it gets disqualified as not being a real niche?

    If that's how you "win" your arguments, then you are more ignorant than intelligent.

    Grocer: Every box of eggs has a dozen in it.

    Customer: This one has 6 and this one has 18.

    Grocer: Those don't count

    Look, I hate the diet supplements niche, but it IS a niche (huge one).

    Just because you don't like a niche, does not mean that it is not one. And just because it puts a hole in your argument does not make it not one.

    Customer: All IMers are scammers.

    Creator: I'm not.

    Customer: You don't count

    That kind of argument stopped holding water back in 3rd grade.


    For the person that asked what my definition of an authority site is... it's this:

    A site that OTHER authority sites reference as an authority site. Unsolicited. Usually in the context of providing further explanation or sometimes action on a topic briefly covered on their site, but one that can be better fulfilled on another site.

    I.E. Yahoo Finance an already accepted authority/reference site links to Motley Fool dot com for further explanation on a breaking stock news piece or an editorial.

    Yahoo's already accepted status as an authority and using Motley Fool as a further authority on a particular subject... is one of the many things that helped Motley Fool become an authority. Of course, that happened YEARS ago, but it's just an example.

    It would not matter if 1000 sh%tty blogs link to Motley Fool, it becomes an authority when OTHER authority sites link as a reference (unpaid). SEO has nothing to do with it, really.

    Of course, many people do manipulate perceived authority, but that's just artificial perception, not the reality of it.

    I don't count a site as an "authority" because of it's SERP, how many backlinks or it's PR.

    True Authority sites are pretty clear to the naked eye. You don't need to know a thing about SEO or have a backlink checker to spot a true authority site.

    Someone who is a true authority on a subject can look at a site and know it is one. They can also look at a highly manipulated one and know that it's not.

    Also, getting an in body contextual link from a true authority site is not easy. They check stuff and have an editorial/journalistic integrity of some degree. Which is why those who are affiliates don't really stand much of a chance. (and why I call BS) One of the first things one (editor wise) does when they are looking at an article to be published on an authority site, is to see where any and all links lead back to. And they then check where the links on *that* page lead to.

    To a typical info product sales page? Buh bye. To an Amazon affilaite sales page? Buh bye. Squeeze Page? No no.

    Allowing those kinds of things is what leads to PR nightmares and alienates long standing readers of an authority site.

    Your article can be well written, 1200 words, and if it leads to a CB, Amazon, or any other affiliate product/site... delete.

    I've seen a few authority sites make a mistake of allowing a link to a shoddy/sketchy sales page... and the comment section went buzzing and they did not allow that to happen again.

    You can get syndicated on lower level, "authority" sites that really have just been search engine manipulated, but calling that proper syndication is like calling a Toyota Corolla with a leather interior a luxury car.

    It's just a "prettier" form of what article directory marketers are doing and a little more proactive, but deserves not a pompous attitude, a high horse, or anything close to that.

    And in all honesty, it's SE manipulation, so you "white hatters" are black hatters that just think you are not. Nothing wrong with it, but you just want to manipulate links just like the rest of the lot. Admit it. Be done with it.

    And don't profess to have secret channels of true authority sites syndicating your affiliate articles.

    The cashier who steals $ 10 a day for a year is just as guilty as the guy who runs into the store and takes $2,000 all at once.
    This was an intriguing post NY. This point I found particularly intriguing: "You can get syndicated on lower level, "authority" sites that really have just been search engine manipulated, but calling that proper syndication is like calling a Toyota Corolla with a leather interior a luxury car."

    Is this what you have found from your own personal experience?
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  • Profile picture of the author Coyotex
    Thank you, Alexa, for clearing this up for me! I feel a lot better about it now! You're the best!
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  • Profile picture of the author DireStraits
    Flippin' heck. This conversion is even more fruitless this morning than it was last night just before Dave Rodman got banned.

    NY1, you do make several well-informed points. I admit to this. Unfortunately, as I think John McCabe said yesterday, they're nestled within a whole bunch of generalisations, bigoted snide remarks and far-stretched theory that sounds good on the surface but, quite frankly, doesn't always reflect reality. For every example you give to further solidify your point, there are counterexamples that could be put forth to challenge it.

    I dare say the same is true for everything I or anyone else says from the opposite side of the fence, too. Clearly so, anyway.

    So what's the point? I, for one, am not interested in attempting to "win over" any of those with opposing views. My chiming in on this thread to begin with was in an effort to help offer up and/or reinforce an opposing view, purely for the benefit of all those who silently and anonymously peruse this thread without much (if any) participation and probably no clue as to which direction to take.

    Okay - I admit - and because sometimes it's hard to resist challenging the shifting accusations and statements that individuals like Dave Rodman make. (In a previous thread: "Article directory marketing is a form of article marketing", but "I don't do article marketing at all", however "I've been doing article marketing since ~2005)???

    Difference is, you see. Most of the people who syndicate articles seem, at some point or other, to have engaged in article directory marketing. I know I have, and I know Alexa has.

    On the other side of the fence, though, many of the non-syndication fellows have never tried syndication or may never have been successful with it, and/or apparently outright despise the notion that it can and does work very successfully for others ... and are talking mostly from theory rather than experience when they attempt to say otherwise.

    I really don't even know what point I'm supposed to be making any more, to be honest. I don't even feel compelled to make one. It seems to me that the whole topic of debate has morphed to be more about semantics than the ins and outs of any particular article marketing approach.

    For example:

    Discussions over "real vs. SEO-only authority, for instance, and "real marketing vs. ??? (fake marketing? :p)".

    And, I admit, one that I bought up yesterday: "Real niches vs. fake/"illusionary"/unethical niches".

    I do acknowledge the point NY1 is making when he highlights the difference between human-perceived authority and search-engine/SEO authority.

    However, I'm not sure what relevance this has in the context of this thread. I didn't realise it was a discussion over what constitutes "real" authority and therefore how well syndication to authority sites can/can't work for the average person.

    I thought the point was pretty simple: authority sites, whether they have "real authority" or "SEO authority", usually command a lot of targetted traffic. This is one thing they have in common. And that is the whole purpose behind an article marketer's desire to have his/her content syndicated to those sites: to harness some of that traffic.

    I don't care if the site is in the league of the Motley Fool, The Independent, About.com or a site for hobbyists run by one man and his dog. If there's a good amount of traffic flowing through that site, I want my articles there either way. Period. End of discussion.

    Sure, on some sites it's far less likely to happen than others. But so what. There are usually plenty of relevant/semi-relevant sites around and thus plenty of potential targets for syndication.

    That is the top of bottom of what syndication is all about: positioning of your articles in front of a relevant, targeted audience with a potential interest in what you're offering.

    What does anything else matter? No-one can dispute the benefits of accomplishing this, nor downplay the argument of why it's nearly always a more desirable and worthwhile option than simply sticking to article directory marketing/SEO.

    Anyway. I don't feel compelled to reply to this thread any more. I foresee it being closed soon, anyway, at this rate. The discussion is either going round in circles or forever going off on a new tangent. It is murder.

    A completely fruitless affair.
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  • Profile picture of the author madison_avenue
    Interestingly Motley Fool did not start up as an authotity site - no site did. It was started by 2 English Lit grads as a photocopied newsletter which failed.

    Debut of America Online Forum: 1994
    Their first attempt failed, but the Gardner brothers soon found another medium to explore. In November 1993, Tom Gardner posted a note in the personal finance area maintained by Internet service provider America Online (AOL). He provided his telephone number and offered free copies of The Motley Fool newsletter. By the following day, three messages were on his answering machine, one from Texas, one from Maine, and one from Minnesota.

    Sensing an opportunity to reach a large audience with their offbeat approach to investing, the Gardners set up a message board on AOL to serve as a forum for exchanging investment information. They explained they were novices, but offered to answer any questions anyone might have, and encouraged others to offer any advice of their own
    source: funding universe.

    There is not necessarily such a clear distinction between the much vaunted authority site and an ordinary sites. Some ordinary sites grow to become authority sites , some authority sites disappear. The process is dynamic, the internet is not print publishing, it's a mistake to use that model to when looking at web-sites. Sites can move up quickly and decline quickly.

    There are lots of potential "Motley Fools" floating around which may become authority sites someday.
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    • Profile picture of the author DireStraits
      Originally Posted by madison_avenue View Post

      Interestingly Motley Fool did not start up as an authotity site - no site did. It was started by 2 English Lit grads as a photocopied newsletter which failed.

      source: funding universe.

      There is not necessarily such a clear distinction between the much vaunted authority site and an ordinary sites. Some ordinary sites grow to become authority sites , some authority sites disappear. The process is dynamic, the internet is not print publishing, it's a mistake to use that model to when looking at web-sites. Sites can move up quickly and decline quickly.

      There are lots of potential "Motley Fools" floating around which may become authority sites someday.
      Indeed, that is a good point.

      As I said in an above post, anyway, for all the discussion of semantics put forth by those on the opposite side of the fence to myself, Alexa Smith, Paul Uhl, Chris Worner, John McCabe, etc, they're still missing the point.

      The point being that pretty much any site with a good amount of targeted internal traffic is a desirable place on which to have your relevant articles republished.

      It really doesn't matter whether their traffic is coming from type-ins as a result of TV, magazine, newspaper or other forms of offline advertising, due to their site being the highest-profile go-to place for information in a specific market/industry, or whether it comes from online banner advertisements, PPC or organic search-engine rankings. Targeted traffic is targeted traffic, and it's all supplementary to what you'd receive if you were restricting your traffic-harnessing efforts to SEO only. Actually, it doesn't even have to be a supplementary source of traffic - it can be your primary source of traffic, as Paul Uhl (myob) so frequently points out. And he makes a ruddy good living from it by it being so. What is there to dispute? It works.

      The results speak for themselves.
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      • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
        Good grief,

        I take four days off from here, happily sunning myself and boozing away the days with splendid company and I missed out on the riot.

        No more days off for me.
        Signature

        Wibble, bark, my old man's a mushroom etc...

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        • Profile picture of the author Chris Worner
          Originally Posted by Richard Van View Post

          Good grief,

          I take four days off from here, happily sunning myself and boozing away the days with splendid company and I missed out on the riot.

          No more days off for me.
          You are very late to the party my friend :p

          Funnily enough Mr. Rodman got banned, not sure what for though.

          Chris
          Signature

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          • Profile picture of the author Grace Hawthorne
            Banned
            Originally Posted by Chris Worner View Post

            You are very late to the party my friend :p

            Funnily enough Mr. Rodman got banned, not sure what for though.

            Chris
            Oh dear, I am sorry to hear this for selfish reasons. I asked him earlier in this thread about the methods that are working for him, but he disappeared. Is it possible he was drummed out of here merely for being a dissenter?
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            • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
              Originally Posted by Grace Hawthorne View Post

              Oh dear, I am sorry to hear this for selfish reasons. I asked him earlier in this thread about the methods that are working for him, but he disappeared. Is it possible he was drummed out of here merely for being a dissenter?
              Or for breaking the rules in some way.

              The moderators here don't ban people because they don't agree with them, that wouldn't make them very good "moderators", would it.

              Don't worry though Grace, I'm sure he'll be back soon.
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              • Profile picture of the author Grace Hawthorne
                Banned
                Originally Posted by Richard Van View Post

                Or for breaking the rules in some way.

                The moderators here don't ban people because they don't agree with them, that wouldn't make them very good "moderators", would it.

                Don't worry though Grace, I'm sure he'll be back soon.
                It doesn't look good to see the word banned by his name, Richard. I didn't understand certain points he was attempting to make in this thread, but he seemed adamant about his positions, which were against the majority of other posters. It would have been nice to learn exactly what was working for him, but he just went poof! He was gone.

                Possibly his ban is temporary, is this why you say he'll be back?
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                • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
                  Originally Posted by Grace Hawthorne View Post

                  It doesn't look good to see the word banned by his name, Richard. I didn't understand certain points he was attempting to make in this thread, but he seemed adamant about his positions, which were against the majority of other posters. It would have been nice to learn exactly what was working for him, but he just went poof! He was gone.

                  Possibly his ban is temporary, is this why you say he'll be back?
                  I've no idea what happened so I couldn't say what type of ban it was or when/if he'll be back.

                  Like I said though, I'm sure he will be back and I'm sure he'll elaborate for you, on what it is that works so well for him.

                  Try sending him a PM and I'm sure he'll be in touch shortly.
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                • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
                  Originally Posted by Grace Hawthorne View Post

                  It doesn't look good to see the word banned by his name, Richard. I didn't understand certain points he was attempting to make in this thread, but he seemed adamant about his positions, which were against the majority of other posters. It would have been nice to learn exactly what was working for him, but he just went poof! He was gone.

                  Possibly his ban is temporary, is this why you say he'll be back?
                  Grace, there are a lot of things he could have done to earn a temporary ban. Any one of which could have garnered him a time-out of anywhere from a day to a couple of weeks. Having a dissenting opinion is not one of them.

                  For that matter, it might not have been something he did in this thread. If you get the temporary ban, that tag shows under your user name for the duration of your ban in every active post you have. When the ban ends, the original tag returns.
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            • Profile picture of the author Ken Strong
              Originally Posted by Grace Hawthorne View Post

              Oh dear, I am sorry to hear this for selfish reasons. I asked him earlier in this thread about the methods that are working for him, but he disappeared. Is it possible he was drummed out of here merely for being a dissenter?
              No, his ban had nothing to do with his posts in this thread. It was discovered that Mr. Rodman had already been banned from this forum at least a half-dozen times previously under various usernames.

              Enough about that, let's get back to the topic at hand now.
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              • Profile picture of the author myob
                Originally Posted by Ken Strong View Post

                ...Enough about that, let's get back to the topic at hand now.
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                • Profile picture of the author DireStraits
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      • Profile picture of the author drmani
        Michael, your posts on this thread have been very well thought out,
        and balanced - but in your last one, I believe you're missing one of
        the points you yourself are making...

        Originally Posted by DireStraits View Post

        The point being that pretty much any site with a good amount of targeted internal traffic is a desirable place on which to have your relevant articles republished.

        It really doesn't matter whether their traffic is coming from type-ins as a result of TV, .... Targeted traffic is targeted traffic
        Your exact point applies equally well to article DIRECTORY style of marketing
        with articles!

        Indeed, for those who are VERY successful practicing this style alone (because
        it suits their specific niches), it is for this exact reason that it works.

        Which is why, as many 'debaters' on the thread are saying repeatedly, it's not
        about EITHER/OR, and not even which style works better, but about

        a. finding the right approach(es) that works FOR YOU & YOUR NICHE

        b. intelligently using EVERY one that works

        Who cares if one approach works 10x better in my hands if it doesn't for you?

        And if one source sends you 100 visitors and another sends you 10, why would
        anyone dogmatically turn down those 10 extra visitors - simply to make a
        point that the 100 visitor source is 'better'?

        In all forms of article marketing (as in any other kind of marketing), there
        are nuances and degrees of effectiveness.

        This discussion has served an incredibly valuable purpose - by showcasing the
        pros and cons of two broad styles of article marketing.

        For that alone, if nothing else, this is a 'keeper'

        All success
        Dr.Mani
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  • Profile picture of the author damongreene
    Originally Posted by ArticlePrince View Post

    First off, let me say that I have a fair bit of experience with article marketing and with EZA. Here's what a difference using EZA properly can be: in my first niche ever, I have 45 articles resulting in about 400 clicks. In the niche I did after that one, I wrote 7 articles and now have about 8k clicks. The difference?

    I wrote articles, not backlinks. You know what I mean! I'm not saying that your article has to be 1000+ words (although the scrapers like them), but focus on writing a greating article, not on getting a keyword off of your to write list. Why was this powerful? They got moved to the most viewed of the category, which got me more views. They were used by others or linked to, which helped my sales. After all, we put dollars in the bank, not CTR. Instead of seeing how many articles you can write per day (I used to do 30!), write one great article.

    I bet you'll get more traffic, more backlinks, and (depending on your site), more sales. Try it!
    QUALITY OVER QUANITIY! Write for people not robots.
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    • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
      Originally Posted by NY1 View Post

      The 99 percent thing is used to stress a point. It's commonly called a 'figure of speech.'

      I can tell you are not from NY (or under the age of 40) if you don't understand it. Obviously it does not mean that exactly 99 percent do things a certain way, just the vast majority. If that is all you can latch on to... well... let's just say you must be reaching.
      I'm familiar with 'figures of speech', NY1. This particular figure is a sore point for me, because it's abused so often.

      Your use was probably far enough out there that I shouldn't have reacted the way I did, but I get buried under pleas for money from groups claiming "1 out of 5" whatevers suffer from something, which will magically be cured if you donate $x,xxx. When people start throwing exact stats at me on things that exact stats can't exist for, it trips my trigger.

      As for what you can tell about me, well, you're half right. I'm not from New York. This part of Florida attracts enough New Yorkers that the lines sometimes blur, though. I do have to confess, 40 is getting pretty small in the rear view mirror.

      Not so much reaching as overreacting. Other than some broad assumptions about what the majority of people do, you make some very valid points.

      Nothing personal...
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  • Yes you are totaaly right unique readable content is key to succes when you are doing article marketing.



    Kristof
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  • Profile picture of the author Marhelper
    What a concept! Actually WRITING an article.
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  • Profile picture of the author cellington
    Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

    If someone wants to show me some solid examples and results associated with it, I might be a believer...
    Solid Examples and Results
    6 years ago, tired of the drudgework of article marketing by hand, I decided to automate the process. Along with a partner, I launched ArticleMarketer.com.

    Having no budget and little internet marketing experience, our only form of advertising was what we knew: we wrote articles and posted them to the sites on our distribution list. We didn't do anything else.

    It Totally Worked.
    I could regale you with stories of my life. I live in a 4,000 square foot home in the hills overlooking San Francisco Bay. In 2008 my family and I spent a week in New York City, staying in a suite on Times Square, being driven around town in limos and seeing 6 Broadway hits just a week after several of them won Tony awards!

    Last December, after my wife saw Roger Waters perform "Dark Side of the Moon" with her sister here in the Bay Area, she just HAD to buy (scalped!) floor seats for the two of us to see the sold out show down in Los Angeles (ok, she was right... it was FANTASTIC from the floor). We have a high-end cruise planned that we're all looking forward to...

    Every penny I've earned since 2005 has come from article marketing. But you don't know me, so my life is not really "proof" for you.

    So here is one "solid example with results" that you can check yourself: type the search term: article marketing into Google, and see for yourself where articlemarketer.com sits.
    (here's a screenshot captured just now for anyone reading this thread many days/weeks from now)

    Why is that impressive? According to Google, "article marketing" gets 90,000+ searches/month. Its a keyword with over 9 million results, and it was the keyword we cared about.

    We still have top placement for Article Marketer, and we did it using nothing but article distribution.

    But it's even more impressive than that
    In Oct 2009, with different long term visions, the AM partners each went our separate ways and the articlemarketer site was shut down. The only thing posted at articlemarketer.com since then is a page allowing people to navigate to the two new companies. (My company is the DYA Community at distributeyourarticles.com)

    Any way you slice it, the fact that AM is still at the top of a solid, profitable search result demonstrates the long term viability and power of using articles to build your brand.

    Impressive: Part 3
    Since the breakup of AM in Oct 2009, DYA has been very quiet. We haven't done much in the way of marketing - really any at all. Instead we've devoted the bulk of our resources improving our tools and our technology to provide a better platform for our article marketing members.

    We have, however, syndicated just a few articles. So change that Google search to use the term: article distribution

    You can see that articlemarketer.com dominates that page too, but after just a little bit of article work, DYA is only a few slots outta first place (and remember.. we really haven't started any marketing yet!)

    (Again, here's a screenshot) I readily admit, this is a smaller result set and not as popular a search term.

    But still, by any standards, I think that's a fair and independent demonstration of "solid examples and results" regarding the strategy of writing articles and getting them out in the world to be seen by a target market.

    It's a successful strategy - assuming that "being found for your preferred search terms" is a goal of your marketing strategy. If you have a different goal, then nevermind. If you have a different way to achieve that goal, then hooray for you!

    Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

    ...but in *most* cases, I think the argument for syndication is made...
    And yes Jeremy, I do note that you said "in *most* cases" so perhaps I'm simply the exception that proves your rule. But... after spending HOURS reading through this thread, I'm still not sure how the folks here are going to classify me and my strategy.
    • We immediately distribute articles to article directories for our members... so maybe we're "article directory marketers".
    • There are over 10,000 niche blogs and content sites on our distribution list... so maybe we're "mass distribution marketers" (although no single article is going to be relevant to all 10,000 sites)
    • Our members become "Guest Bloggers" on relevant sites over time... so maybe we're "article syndicators".
    • We support unique versions through article spinning, but only when the results generate validly human-readable content and we'll only put one version of an article on any given site... so people get to choose whether or not article spinning will be included in their personal strategies.
    • We accept short backlink-style articles, assuming they provide some good (and not thin) content for readers... a strategy some people don't approve of, while others make a lot of money using it.
    • We advocate multiple pen names for our members who write on multiple topics or for multiple businesses... some people will abhor that while others love it.
    • Each member can choose to skip sites on the list that don't meet the goals of that particular campaign or pull it back if the article is on a site they don't like ... some people don't want site-specific content curation while others live and die by it.
    • We block spam, thin content, and overly salesy ads pretending to be articles. We have invested the time, effort and money required to train the people, institute the processes and build the technology that results in the greatest spam blocker on the planet... but we get complaints from spammers about it all the time. That's ok
    Maybe we're "Mass-Content-Syndication-Article-Directory-for-Backlinks-and-Visitors-Niche-Blogger-SpamBlocking Marketers".

    I don't know. And really, does it matter that much? The bottom line is that business is about getting new customers, closing more sales, and putting more money in the bank. Whether you do it by "article directory marketing" or by "article syndication" or by blogging, email campaigns, PPC, social networking, banner ads, YouTube videos, or dropping leaflets out of helicopters, more power to you!

    Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

    ... made simply to further a personal agenda and or belief with regards to how content should be used.
    At the end of the day different people conduct their campaigns different ways. They have their own "rules", "strategies" and "agendas" for their own campaigns. I wanted a platform that accommodates the many ways business owners conduct their campaigns, so at DYA, we do not impose our personal agenda of what article marketing *ought to be* or how content should be used.

    Each publisher on our list has set the guidelines for content distributed to that particular site. Some sites accept affiliate links, other sites don't. Some sites allow spun articles, other sites don't. Some sites allow product reviews, other sites do not. Our task is to distribute an article to the places that will accept it, and prevent it from going to the other places.

    The only requirement: We'll distribute quality content on which you own the copyright. The content must be useful, authoritative, relevant, and free of grammatical and spelling errors. DYA is simply an article marketing platform. We provide the tools anyone can use to run and manage their article marketing campaigns the way THEY want.

    So Jeremy, I don't know if I've made a believer out of you. At this point in the thread, I can't even figure out if we're on opposite sides. I don't have a dog in this fight because my "open methodology" platform allows individuals to conduct their own campaigns according to their own agendas, expectations and beliefs.

    But I do hope that everyone here will acknowledge that there are multiple paths to a desired outcome. That which is perfect for some, is poison for others. There is no reason for anyone to belittle or look down upon those who choose a path different from your own.
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    Grow your business in a way that is safe, simple and effective. Discover how the unique synergy of DistributeYourArticles makes you irresistible to customers

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  • Profile picture of the author bretski
    Let's Go Red Sox Let's Go!
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  • Profile picture of the author maxjpip
    Writing 10 or more keyword optimized articles a day is just crazy. Not only is it just plain boring, but it's next to impossible. Even if you outsource it, it would be a big waste of money. And you'd only get some good result (traffic)if you are lucky.
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    • Profile picture of the author Raindance
      Would the posters in this thread mind if I copy all this content, make an e-book and sell it as "Brawl of the Month: The Clash of the Writans"? Affiliation, open for all.

      This thread is more entertaining than any reality show on the idiot box!!! :p
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      • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
        Originally Posted by NY1 View Post

        @ John McCabe- Not sure if that is some sort of an apology. If it is I accept, if it's not oh well. Judge a man just on his figure of speech or his accent or dialect and well... you might make some really bad judgments in life.
        It was an apology of sorts for sniping at your figures of speech.

        As for accent or dialect, You're the one who made "being from New York" some kind of harbinger of superior judgment...

        I've met more New Yorkers (or former NYers) since moving to Florida than I had in the rest of my life. What I've found, not unexpectedly, is that they're the same, pretty much, as anyone else. Other than talking funny, of course. :p (Quoting the eminent Foghorn Leghorn, "I say, that's a joke, son")

        Originally Posted by NY1 View Post

        **As far as the definition of authority as in authority sites, outside of the how can I set up blogs that make money world, my definition is pretty standard.

        Web MD would be an authority.

        How to Cure Whatever Ailment You Want dot com set up by a non medically trained person would not, no matter how high the PR went, no matter how many links were created.

        An authority site is regarded by it's peers as an authority, as in people educated on the subject.

        Doing the whole write enough articles and you will be perceived as an expert by people that don't know any better thing would never make you a real authority.

        Has nothing to do with Google rankings, backlinks, or how many blogs you can get syndicated on. In short, you can't manipulate Authority.

        Has everything to do with credibility which would include fact checking, editorial processes, and certifications/degrees where need be.
        I'm in lockstep agreement with you here.

        Originally Posted by Raindance View Post

        Would the posters in this thread mind if I copy all this content, make an e-book and sell it as "Brawl of the Month: The Clash of the Writans"? Affiliation, open for all.

        This thread is more entertaining than any reality show on the idiot box!!! :p
        Just let me know where to send the invoice and licensing agreement...
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      • Profile picture of the author myob
        Originally Posted by Raindance View Post

        Would the posters in this thread mind if I copy all this content, make an e-book and sell it as "Brawl of the Month: The Clash of the Writans"? Affiliation, open for all.

        This thread is more entertaining than any reality show on the idiot box!!! :p
        My posts as well as several others have been syndicated throughout many of these threads, so it will be difficult for you to claim original copyright without spinning them at least by 70%.
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        • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
          Originally Posted by myob View Post

          My posts as well as several others have been syndicated throughout many of these threads, so it will be difficult for you to claim original copyright without spinning them at least by 70%.
          Rubbish.

          At least 95%. :p
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  • Profile picture of the author allenjohn
    Hi,

    I've been tracking Ezine Articles since the Panda update and you can see that Google no longer loves them.



    In fact, that is starting to rub off on Yahoo and MSN. Actually, my article is the highest out of the lot of them and that interestingly enough, was entitled:

    http://ezinearticles.com/?Making-Mon...ad?&id=6035310

    Thought I'd share. All the very best, Allen
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  • Profile picture of the author WebPen
    When I first started using EZA I thought it was all about quantity.

    Crank out 10-15 articles a day and I'd be rolling in the money.

    A month later I start looking at my stats.....
    7 views.
    11 views.
    3 views.

    THAT'S depressing.

    Since then I've learned its MUCH better to spend an hour or so writing a good article (I think if you really know the subject, you can do that), having a good keyword so that it ranks, and let it take off.

    That said, there are submission/Web 2.0 sites that rank better in Google than EZA, so don't limit yourself...
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  • Profile picture of the author mr.gaurabborah
    I started EZA as a beginner and made my first 1000$ just be using EZA. But now my articles are nowhere. All the effort I made are wasted. In march form my few articles I was making around 300-400$ /month. This month I was able to get just 5 sales. However now I am building my own review sites where I could have more control what I write
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    • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
      Banned
      Originally Posted by mr.gaurabborah View Post

      I started EZA as a beginner and made my first 1000$ just be using EZA. But now my articles are nowhere. All the effort I made are wasted. In march form my few articles I was making around 300-400$ /month. This month I was able to get just 5 sales. However now I am building my own review sites where I could have more control what I write
      I hear you - that sounds much better.

      You have can have complete control over what you write and use EZA (as I do, every day). What you might like to try is following the example of most of the successful, professional article marketers here, as so clearly explained in this thread, and publish your articles on your own sites first, and have them indexed there, before submitting them to EZA.

      As you've recently been discovering, depending on article directories for their own traffic and their own backlinks isn't really "article marketing": it's only "article directory marketing".
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  • Profile picture of the author DireStraits
    Originally Posted by NY1 View Post

    @ John McCabe- My reference to being from NY was not to put myself on a higher level. It was to explain why I speak the way that I do, and let's be honest, a few trips to Hunt's Point as a kid, and you learn not to take any claims at face value. That's all I was implying.
    I'm from a place called Hull, in England; and let me just say that if I were to write here as I speak in person, you'd likely feel insulted not merely by what I say (if you could comprehend any of it), but also how grotesque it looks on your screen.

    Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

    One asks of a pudding, not if the cook who offers it is a good woman, but if the pudding itself is good."

    (H.L. Mencken)
    I always find that the answer to that question can be more easily established, while lessening one's chances of causing offense, simply by gauging the protrusion of the cook's laryngeal prominence.
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    • Profile picture of the author myob
      Originally Posted by DireStraits View Post

      I always find that the answer to that question can be more easily established, while lessening one's chances of causing offense, simply by gauging the protrusion of the cook's laryngeal prominence.
      Unlike in Hull, in LA we just examine the protrusion from the cleavage.
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    • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
      Dire Straits - I'm from a place called Hull, in England
      I went to Hull once, I renamed it "Hell".

      That beer we're going to have one day, you fancy coming to London instead?

      Miles safer chap.
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      • Profile picture of the author DireStraits
        Originally Posted by Richard Van View Post

        I went to Hull once, renamed it "Hell".
        You wouldn't be the first!

        (Some describe it as "Hell on Earth"; I sometimes refer to it as "bloody 'ell on mucky 'umber". )

        Originally Posted by Richard Van View Post

        That beer we're going to have one day, you fancy coming to London instead?

        Miles safer chap.
        "Awoight, codger!", but only if you're paying, man! It's miles more flippin' expensive, too! And I only drink in the west end. I like to go celebrity-spotting. lol.
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  • Profile picture of the author H.Miller
    Originally Posted by ArticlePrince View Post

    First off, let me say that I have a fair bit of experience with article marketing and with EZA. Here's what a difference using EZA properly can be: in my first niche ever, I have 45 articles resulting in about 400 clicks. In the niche I did after that one, I wrote 7 articles and now have about 8k clicks. The difference?

    I wrote articles, not backlinks. You know what I mean! I'm not saying that your article has to be 1000+ words (although the scrapers like them), but focus on writing a greating article, not on getting a keyword off of your to write list. Why was this powerful? They got moved to the most viewed of the category, which got me more views. They were used by others or linked to, which helped my sales. After all, we put dollars in the bank, not CTR. Instead of seeing how many articles you can write per day (I used to do 30!), write one great article.

    I bet you'll get more traffic, more backlinks, and (depending on your site), more sales. Try it!
    Very true. I agree with everything you said. Quality will beat quantity any day. People get so caught up in trying to get backlinks that they sacrifice quality. What they fail to understand is that you only have the potential to make money when some one clicks thru to your site. If your article sucks people won't read past the first paragraph which means they won't be visiting your site.
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  • Profile picture of the author azhar99
    [DELETED]
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    • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
      Banned
      Originally Posted by azhar99 View Post

      Where's Alexa on this???
      Perleeeeeeeease ... don't encourage her, or we'll never hear the end of the poxy thread.

      She's already in posts 25, 43, 45, 49, 59, 71, 74, 85, 94, 99, 103, 128, 138, 140, 146, 155, 156, 190, 204, 207 and 209 above ... not to mention being quoted in many others (and even grossly misquoted in a few).
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  • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
    Originally Posted by NY1 View Post

    @ John McCabe- My reference to being from NY was not to put myself on a higher level. It was to explain why I speak the way that I do, and let's be honest, a few trips to Hunt's Point as a kid, and you learn not to take any claims at face value. That's all I was implying.
    Hence, the abundant smilies in my last reply. As far as I'm concerned, we're cool...
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  • Profile picture of the author tpw
    Originally Posted by NY1 View Post

    I know I said I wouldn't post again, but I'll make an exception, lol.

    Seems the clique jumped on me when my back was turned, eh?

    @ TPW-- Never even mentioned you. Why you are so irked (I like that word) I don't know. Don't even know where to begin to make a response, really. Protesting a little too much as they say. I'll leave it at that.

    This is my third post in this thread of over 200 posts, so I doubt if you would have seen a chance to mention me specifically.

    I was answering your question, not ganging up on you.

    I was not in the least: irked, irritated, agitated, aggravated, angered, or incensed. :p

    I am not sure how you were able to take the conclusion that I was "irked" or any variation thereof.



    Originally Posted by NY1 View Post

    The funny thing in all of this is... syndication is a HUGE part of my business.

    I just don't get all high and mighty about it.

    Nor do I.

    My opinion has not changed since my first post in this thread:

    Originally Posted by tpw View Post

    Getting published in a directory does not offer me the same bang for the buck that syndication to high-traffic websites and high subscriber-count newsletters bring. Getting syndicated to a website with a lot of traffic or a newsletter with lots of active subscribers brings with syndication a huge opportunity to see a huge reward for the work we have done.

    Paid advertising by far is more consistent and reliable than article marketing.

    Yet, article marketing brings with it the possibility of delivering a lifetime worth of high-quality advertising for the cost of writing and distributing the article.

    When you write for the approval of an article directory, the bar is actually pretty low.

    When you write for the approval of a publisher who might syndicate your content, the bar is quite a bit higher.

    When I write an article, I always strive to get syndicated. If my article fails to achieve syndication in high-value websites and newsletters, I consider my article a failure.

    Is that arrogance?


    Originally Posted by NY1 View Post

    My world is not so small as to not know that there are many effective ways to promote a business or to gain links or whatever you are trying to do.

    I gather you are trying to lump me in an imaginary "clique" of people whose opinions you do not respect.

    Why else would you suggest, "Seems the clique jumped on me when my back was turned", and then address me?



    Originally Posted by NY1 View Post

    To have a group of people gather up on anyone that does not share their world view on what "proper" marketing is, well, that's just ridiculous. To an advertising agency, your "proper marketing" would not be so proper to them.

    In any business situation OTHER than internet marketing... you have to provide facts when you are selling your services, even your suggestions.

    Well, at least to astute business people you do.

    Say you make XX,XXX dollars per month... you have to show proof.

    In IM, you don't. Still weird to me.

    You can hide behind pen names that you cannot reveal and make claims that you have no proof because well, it has to remain hidden.

    Funny. Cons usually work the same way

    Imagine a Madison Avenue advertising firm pitching themselves to a prospective client and not having a single detail to give them, just vague claims.

    Would they make the sale?

    Probably not.

    In IM, that's how the game goes.

    (Even Wall Street would blush at that one, lol)

    Absolutely!! But was I trying to sell you something?

    LOL

    I did not think so.


    Originally Posted by NY1 View Post

    Say you get high level syndication and everyone is expected to believe you without any proof... otherwise they are the one with the problem. Deflection much?

    There is plenty of proof in MY niches of getting published on authority websites and newsletters that matter to me in my business.

    But the reality is that what I consider to be an authority, you may not...

    Most people who "demand proof" are not actually looking for proof, but rather an opportunity to bash someone for not providing it.

    And even when "proof" is provided, many people will strive to invalidate the proof, in order to be perceived as winning their argument.

    Are you most people or many people? I don't know.



    I don't so much chase publication in something that other people will agree to be perceived as "authority". Instead, I pursue publication in websites and newsletters that I know have a large enough audience to put eyeballs on my articles and prospects on my websites. So my version of authority may be quite different from yours.

    If I wanted to sell you something, I would have sent you to this list of sites where articles have been published.

    Or I would have sent you on an exploration for Trey Pennewell, who is one of my personal pen names, and you may have turned up this article on the National Business Association website (PR6) or this one on the Search Engine College website (PR5).

    When I started using the Trey Pennewell pen name in 2006, it was a name that only had about 20 mentions in Google. Today, it has more than 8600 mentions in Google although it only has 26 articles credited to it.

    Another of my pen names, Hunter Waterhouse also had a Google footprint of under 20 results, and now boasts 3160 results with 7 articles. Hunter Waterhouse was published in WebProNews (PR6) and SEO-News.

    For my own name, I could have sent you here or here to see links to several of the articles I had published that year, but you might complain that those archive pages point to 2007. And I would laugh and remind you that I have barely been active as an article marketer since November of 2008, when I took nearly a year off for personal family reasons.

    Shelley Lowery even uses my articles in her eTips newsletter. Her website Web-Source.net (PR3) receives over 550,000 unique visitors and an average of 2.8 million page views each month. Shelley is an authority in her own right, although you may not recognize her as such.

    Mike Banks Valentine at Website101 has also been fond of publishing my articles for years. Last year, he offered me a guest blogging spot and yet he continues to publish some of my syndicated articles, even though I give him unique content in my guest blog posts.

    An article I wrote in 2002 is sitting here with a PR4, which is the same as the homepage of the website.

    I could also suggest that many people think highly enough of me to quote or mention me in "their articles". My favorite I think is David Jackson's, "The League of Extraordinary Internet Marketing Experts". But David is just one of many to mention me directly in their own articles.



    Originally Posted by NY1 View Post

    An authority site is regarded by it's peers as an authority, as in people educated on the subject.

    Has nothing to do with Google rankings, backlinks, or how many blogs you can get syndicated on. In short, you can't manipulate Authority.

    None of the mentions above are PR8 sites, like WebMD or Wall Street Journal Online, but many are authority sites in the IM-niche.

    Will that be enough to satisfy your longing for proof? If you are like most people who demand proof, probably not.

    Why?

    Like I said previously, most people who "demand proof" are not actually looking for proof.



    Originally Posted by NY1 View Post

    For the earlier posts where it was revealed that the general opinion on one side was that all niches can be promoted the same way (widespread syndication) ... haha, imagine that.

    Yep. I knew you were not talking about me.



    Originally Posted by NY1 View Post

    Yeah, I'm blunt when I say things, never passive aggressive, but hey... I said I was from NY, right?

    **** As far as my assertions go and the fact that I need to have proof, yet the others don't have to show proof of what they do...

    What's good for the goose (me) is good for the gander (them).

    You can't have your cake and eat it too.

    What a way to end this... back to back cliches, lol.

    P.S. Let the cheap shots come at me, lol. If that's how you work your game... well, they won't let me use the word that I want to use on this site

    Cheap shots? Really?

    When someone seeks to have a conversation with you, do you always refer to the conversation as "cheap shots"?

    I am from Oklahoma, and I don't care how you do things in New York.

    I was not selling anything to anyone, merely stating my opinion based on my own experience.

    As I said in my first post where I was talking to you, either I have credibility with you or I don't...

    Let the chips fall where they may...
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    Bill Platt, Oklahoma USA, PlattPublishing.com
    Publish Coloring Books for Profit (WSOTD 7-30-2015)
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  • Profile picture of the author pmbrent
    That is an interesting strategy, I may consider trying it to see how it works out for me.
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