FBI Shuts Down 2 MAJOR Online Poker sites...

80 replies
Well in an ever growing crack down (A GOOD THING) online gambling / poker sites
will soon be gone for good in the US..if the crooked owners keep laundering and
stealing money. It makes it extremely difficult for legitimate businesses to gain
consumer trust in such a conflicted environment.

Online gambling: FBI shuts down Internet poker sites - latimes.com

Two of the biggest sites on the net FullTilt Poker and Pokerstars
have already been shut down.

I'm sure thousands of affiliate have just seen their income fall off the map.

I received an email from a friend who's sole business was built around
the Online Gambling niche who is now desperate.

I asked if he was diversified in any other way.

The Answer = NO

That's not good.

As with anything in business, diversification is key and you should never
rely on just one means of income.

What are your thoughts on this?

Sean
#fbi #gambling #major #online #shuts #sites
  • Profile picture of the author JamesGw
    How is a crack down on online gambling a good thing? It's silly imo. It shouldn't be illegal. Anyway, I do agree with your point that diversification is key.
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  • Profile picture of the author x3xsolxdierx3x
    I know business is business...and, the government essentially does what it wants....but, I'm not sure about ripping out the carpet of someone's livelihood overnight. Was at least somekind of warning had?
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    • Profile picture of the author paulie888
      Originally Posted by x3xsolxdierx3x View Post

      I know business is business...and, the government essentially does what it wants....but, I'm not sure about ripping out the carpet of someone's livelihood overnight. Was at least somekind of warning had?
      I think the warning signs were around for everyone to see. These two big online sites were blatantly promoting to US players even after online gambling was essentially outlawed in 2006, so he had plenty of time to diversify (if he actually wanted to).
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  • Profile picture of the author ganesh
    I have never promoted any gambling site but I agree that anyone making money online should diversify. Nowadays everything is unpredictable. At the same time there are several new possibilities also which were not there a few years back. I make it a point to invest a minimum of 10% of my income back into the business. It can be for outsourcing, developing products etc.
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  • Profile picture of the author ladywriter
    You're right about diversification, which is why I cringe a little bit when I read things like "focus on ONE thing" as advice to newbies.

    Imagine if you lived in NY state, were an Amazon affiliate, and had a gambling niche blog. That's two income streams down the drain.

    What happens if they shut the internet down for "security" reasons?

    It's just so important to have multiple, DIVERSE income streams.
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    • Profile picture of the author x3xsolxdierx3x
      Here's a question for everyone, since we are talking about diversification: Is ANY make-money online activity PURELY, 100%, safe?
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    • Profile picture of the author J Bold
      Originally Posted by rosegrower76 View Post

      You're right about diversification, which is why I cringe a little bit when I read things like "focus on ONE thing" as advice to newbies.

      Imagine if you lived in NY state, were an Amazon affiliate, and had a gambling niche blog. That's two income streams down the drain.

      What happens if they shut the internet down for "security" reasons?

      It's just so important to have multiple, DIVERSE income streams.
      For newbie education, probably more important than focusing on one thing is overcoming obstacles. If you were in a state where Amazon no longer accepts affiliates are there ways to overcome an obstacle like that? Yes, easily. Form a corporation in a place like Nevada, get a virtual office set up there, and then use that address for Amazon. Simple and works. If your main source of income is Amazon affiliate program, you wouldn't just give it up that easily.

      I think, at first, you SHOULD focus on one thing, but not for too long. I am talking like, a month, and then slowly introduce another income stream into your business.

      As for having a gambling niche blog, as long as you do it in a place where you are sure you won't get your site shut down, go for it. But in the U.S., probably not a good idea. If you host your site in another country and your business is set up in another country and abides by their laws, go for it.

      But that's another thing newbies should be made aware of, make sure you follow the law. Now, gambling sites are not legal in the U.S., but they have been getting away with it because of lenient enforcement so far, since the laws came into effect. As affiliates, you could be prosecuted too, but as far as I've researched, no affiliate has ever had any problem with this, but you never know what could happen in the future.
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  • Profile picture of the author Chris Worner
    Originally Posted by Sean A McAlister View Post

    Well in an ever growing crack down (A GOOD THING) online gambling sites
    will soon be gone for good in the US
    You think it is good that thousands of honest tax paying citizens in your country are now out of a legitimate form of income despite not breaking any laws and through no fault of their own? Never mind that many have families to support.

    Lol if you think this situation will mean the end of online poker in the United States. It's already been/in the progress of being legalized in many states.
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    • Profile picture of the author Sean A McAlister
      Originally Posted by Chris Worner View Post

      You think it is good that thousands of honest tax paying citizens in your country are now out of a legitimate form of income despite not breaking any laws and through no fault of their own? Never mind that many have families to support.

      What I'm saying is a "Good Thing" is....

      that all of the Shams that are taking peoples money and effecting lives are being relentlessly being targeted online.

      It's extremely unfortunate for legitimate marketers / business who are ethically and legitimately trying to promote these sites / offers but the crack downs should only prove to help all of us who are trying to do good things online


      EDIT: Whats even worse is all of the Players who make their living playing on these sites are all now out of business....
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    • Profile picture of the author Carlsbadd
      Originally Posted by Chris Worner View Post

      You think it is good that thousands of honest tax paying citizens in your country are now out of a legitimate form of income despite not breaking any laws and through no fault of their own? Never mind that many have families to support.

      Lol if you think this situation will mean the end of online poker in the United States. It's already been/in the progress of being legalized in many states.

      I agree with you, In my home state you can even run poker clubs from your home but somehow playing on line is not allowed...stupid
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  • This is probably the 10th post I've seen on this in the last week just on this forum. I don't think the sites are being shut down. There were high-up people that ran the sites that got arrested, though, and I'm thinking it was for money laundering, but I don't remember for sure on that. Run a search for 'poker' on here and you'll find them.

    To answer your diversification question: I never keep all my eggs in one basket, whether on- or offline. I learned that early in life, fortunately. I always think multiple streams of income.
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  • Profile picture of the author traficmaster
    they only shut down two,the reast are ok and accepting us players as far as i know ()
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    • Profile picture of the author x3xsolxdierx3x
      Originally Posted by traficmaster View Post

      they only shut down two,the reast are ok and accepting us players as far as i know ()
      I've had no interaction with online gambling sites. Why would they only just shut down two, and leave the remainder? If what the top dawgs are doing is considered bad, why are smaller fish allowed to stay open if they do the same things?
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      • Profile picture of the author Chris Worner
        Originally Posted by x3xsolxdierx3x View Post

        I've had no interaction with online gambling sites. Why would they only just shut down two, and leave the remainder? If what the top dawgs are doing is considered bad, why are smaller fish allowed to stay open if they do the same things?
        They are hoping that if they can successfully prosecute these two in particular, it will act as a deterrent for any other gaming companies to accept US players, even though online gambling itself is technically legal. The UIGEA only prohibits the processing of funds to gambling websites.

        There are other reasons they are going after them, but discussing those numerous reasons would turn this into a political discussion so I won't go there.

        Chris
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      • Originally Posted by x3xsolxdierx3x View Post

        I've had no interaction with online gambling sites. Why would they only just shut down two, and leave the remainder? If what the top dawgs are doing is considered bad, why are smaller fish allowed to stay open if they do the same things?
        Actually, it was 3, but they are back online now, so goes to show the FBI isn't as far-reaching and all-powerful as what they think.

        But the problem isn't with the sites themselves, anyway. The owners were charged with bank fraud and money laundering.

        Like most big companies, though, these sites will continue to run even if all of the actual owners were to get convicted.
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  • Profile picture of the author askloz
    Sucks eh... there is a way around it though, if they think about it correctly!

    1. set up offshore, well away from US.
    2. put servers up offshore
    3. set banks off shore.
    4. set up a currency processing company that they will use to allow ppl to fund their poker accounts with, they can do it in their own name or a different company name, better off a different company name really so there's no real way to work out if they are the same ppl..

    you see... the US Govt can not prevent you from spending into another ecurrency processor, like egold, webmoney, neteller, etc. they are just banning banks from accepting funds to fund a poker site.

    what you do with your money once its there in the eccurrency processor, they aren't gonna know where you spent it.

    other ways around it is to automate check processing, cos the govt cant stop a check of yours to anyone. only electronic transactions by getting in contact with the bank to be put on a blacklist.

    any way, USA's loss, UK is HUGE when it comes to gambling...
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  • Profile picture of the author scrofford
    Originally Posted by Mike Hill View Post

    Did you notice everything the Government is involved in is illegal for others to do it? I thought running a Monopoly on an industry was illegal ... oh wait I guess not for the Government.

    If the Government allowed online Gambling they would loose a lot of revenue.

    BTW I just visited Full Tilt Poker.com and its up and so is Pokerstars.com so I don't know what this is all about.
    The game sites are back up except U.S. citizens cannot gamble with real money. And yes you are right, the government does what it wants and is in the "do as I say not as I do" business.
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  • Profile picture of the author speedfrog
    Banned
    Considering those sites sponsor all the major players over here this will have a big impact on poker in the states. There go all the TV deals.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mike Hill
    That's weird... Posted a comment here and now it's gone. Anyway, what I was saying is that

    Did you notice everything the Government is involved in is illegal for others to do it? I thought running a Monopoly on an industry was illegal ... oh wait I guess not for the Government.

    If the Government allowed online Gambling they would loose a lot of revenue.

    BTW I just visited Full Tilt Poker.com and its up and so is Pokerstars.com so I don't know what this is all about.
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  • Profile picture of the author keblack
    I am new to the poker or gambling niche and set up 2 sites promoting Full Tilt Poker. Perhaps that was not a great idea. I just received an email from them and it said :

    After a brief absence, our FullTiltPoker.com domain is once again operational.
    All of your FullTiltPoker.com affiliate tracking links have returned to full functionality. In addition, you'll find that your FullTiltPoker.co.uk tracking links will continue correctly tagging referred players to your affiliate account.

    However, please ensure that you move your tracking links back from .co.uk to .com in the next few days. If your tracking links are not changed back to .com by 23.59 ET on Friday 29th April, any new players you send to Full Tilt Poker after this date may not be tracked to your affiliate account.

    Unfortunately, due to recent actions by the U.S. government, Full Tilt Poker is still unable to facilitate 'real money' play, deposits, or withdrawals by players based in the United States. Rest assured that all player accounts remain safe and secure, and our technical and legal teams are working diligently to resolve any outstanding bottlenecks.

    We thank you for your patience, understanding, and continued support during this time.
    Sincerely,
    The Full Tilt Poker Affiliate Team

    ...........

    I just switched my links to the UK site and now they are telling us to switch back, but it sounds like we would not get any commissions because players in the US would not be playing for real money. Possibly it is best to just switch to another online poker site ? I know there is one in Canada.
    All I wanted to do is build these up and sell sell them as I do not want to really be in the gambling niche. My sites are new and do not make any income yet, but I think they will because one is #2 in Google for the particular poker keyword.

    Anyway, this is confusing. Anyone have any other ideas on this ?

    Thanks.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mike Hlatky
    This is going to have to be played out in court, which can potentially be a good thing for online poker in the United States.

    The reason that these sites don't believe what they are doing is illegal is because they argue poker is NOT a game of chance (which I 100% agree with). Although having poker wasn't the only reason they were shut down. Some of the owners for Absolute Poker were stealing money from the players.
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    • Profile picture of the author askloz
      well, not exactly, I'm a semi-professional poker player, I moved to Las Vegas to get on the poker circuit...

      there is an element of chance... you could end up with being dealt a pair of kings not knowing what you are doing, there's still a chance of winning.

      It's not all skill, there's a lot of luck involved too.

      Originally Posted by Mike Hlatky View Post


      The reason that these sites don't believe what they are doing is illegal is because they argue poker is NOT a game of chance (which I 100% agree with).
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      • Profile picture of the author paulie888
        Originally Posted by askloz View Post

        well, not exactly, I'm a semi-professional poker player, I moved to Las Vegas to get on the poker circuit...

        there is an element of chance... you could end up with being dealt a pair of kings not knowing what you are doing, there's still a chance of winning.

        It's not all skill, there's a lot of luck involved too.
        True, and being able to bluff without any obvious 'tells' is also pretty crucial to being a good poker player.

        It's definitely a mixture of skill and luck, if you're dealt bad cards all day long (which is entirely possible) you're eventually going to bust out sooner or later.

        Of course, there's more of an element of skill involved when you're playing live poker, as opposed to online poker, since the other players can see your face and reactions.

        Paul
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  • Profile picture of the author SocialMediaOwls
    Wow, this is about the dumbest post I've seen in quite awhile. If you legalize MJ and online gambling (and throw in prosititution for good measure) not only would we be 14 trillion less in debt, but we would probably be 14 T in the black.
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    • Profile picture of the author askloz
      they know this

      but they want to bankrupt the USA to a point it forces ppl to go for this one world currency...

      just wait, watch them take over the Oil, they've already got Iran's, now they're after Libya and surrounding areas... once they take that over, they'll have about 60% of the worlds oil, not including their reserves in alaska.

      did you see the huge debt curve? they reckons in about 4-8 years we'll be looking at 30+ Trillion in debt with the ways things are going.

      Originally Posted by SocialMediaOwls View Post

      Wow, this is about the dumbest post I've seen in quite awhile. If you legalize MJ and online gambling (and throw in prosititution for good measure) not only would we be 14 trillion less in debt, but we would probably be 14 T in the black.
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      • Profile picture of the author SocialMediaOwls
        Originally Posted by askloz View Post

        they know this

        but they want to bankrupt the USA to a point it forces ppl to go for this one world currency...

        just wait, watch them take over the Oil, they've already got Iran's, now they're after Libya and surrounding areas... once they take that over, they'll have about 60% of the worlds oil, not including their reserves in alaska.

        did you see the huge debt curve? they reckons in about 4-8 years we'll be looking at 30+ Trillion in debt with the ways things are going.

        Maybe we should ban some more victimless crimes and shoot for 50T in debt. Sounds fun.....I mean, who cares, my kids are going to pick up the tab...dine and dash baby
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        • Profile picture of the author askloz
          lol

          my kids wont... they wont pay any tax - cos its illegal to pay tax IF you didnt sign a contract!

          I dont recall signing a contract when coming out of my mum with a pen in one hand and a contract in the other.


          Originally Posted by SocialMediaOwls View Post

          Maybe we should ban some more victimless crimes and shoot for 50T in debt. Sounds fun.....I mean, who cares, my kids are going to pick up the tab...dine and dash baby
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          • Profile picture of the author SocialMediaOwls
            Originally Posted by askloz View Post

            lol

            my kids wont... they wont pay any tax - cos its illegal to pay tax IF you didnt sign a contract!

            I dont recall signing a contract when coming out of my mum with a pen in one hand and a contract in the other.

            Whilst you were busy tending to the pain from getting slapped on the rear hind quarter, they got your siggy.

            That's how Uncle Sam/HER Royal Highness rolls. They can be slick and underhanded when needed
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            • Profile picture of the author askloz
              I dont care.

              My phone number is on my sites too.

              Until they start putting the money back in the system to help build our communities, they aint getting diddly squat from me...

              but dont worry, I got a backup plan!

              Wanna hear it?

              Send it to charity! and write it off!

              Job done!

              1-0 to me

              plus all my money goes offshore

              2-0 to me

              Originally Posted by SocialMediaOwls View Post

              Whilst you were busy tending to the pain from getting slapped on the rear hind quarter, they got your siggy.

              That's how Uncle Sam/HER Royal Highness rolls. They can be slick and underhanded when needed
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            • Profile picture of the author Kay King
              Emotional arguments don't fly on this one.

              Casinos are high profit both online and offline - and that money doesn't come from winners. Poker is a great game where you can increase your chances of winning through skill - but the luck of the draw is ALWAYS a big factor...it's gambling. Poker players are the most superstitious group of gamblers I've met...and that's saying something.

              The companies operating the sites are outside the U.S. - if this business was legal in the U.S., companies here would be all over it like flies on s....ugar.

              This is totally about tracking money and legal financial transactions under U.S. law. The sites allowed, facilitated or encouraged payment methods designed to get around U.S. laws about funding gambling.

              They will now cooperate and hand over names of banks and others who did the transactions - because the gaming sites want back in when the laws change in the U.S.

              Here's what I find interesting - people willingly send money to these sites believing they are "protected" from dishonest practices....but then are surprised when they learn the websites have to operate within the law.

              kay
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  • Profile picture of the author lucky777
    This actually has nothing to do with gambling at all, it's all about controlling people.
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    • Profile picture of the author yukon
      Banned
      LMAO!

      True it's not about gambling, the reason they shut the three sites down was for $3 billion in money laundering!

      Is it ok for you & I to pay tax, but these poker sites route cash in/out of fake pet supply sites?

      Didn't think so...





      Originally Posted by lucky777 View Post

      This actually has nothing to do with gambling at all, it's all about controlling people.
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  • Profile picture of the author Jack Duncan
    Sean,
    I happened to see this news last week...quite interesting developments for sure.

    One thing I did read in one of the major newspapers was that there was much more to this than simply being an online gambling site with U.S. customers.

    Of course, this will all go to court...but the paper mentioned that some of these companies were being charged for setting up fake companies (flower shops, pet care) then running transactions for fake purchases through their merchant accounts in order to process the money flow.

    It sounded like a pretty elaborate scheme for sure.

    It'll be interesting to see how it all turns out, and if any of the U.S. accounts will be able to withdraw their funds.

    On a "diversification" note, I think it's critical to always have multiple streams of income...

    You never know what tomorrow will bring.

    All the best,
    Jack Duncan
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    • Profile picture of the author Dwight Anthony
      Man, full tilt was huge, just goes to show you to not put your eggs all in the same basket.
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      • Profile picture of the author mrsray
        Originally Posted by danthony View Post

        Man, full tilt was huge, just goes to show you to not put your eggs all in the same basket.
        Great line for Easter Time!!

        Other interesting info ... Australia's Courier-Mail newspaper already has the scoop on the one man who may have single-handedly built the online poker industry ... then handed it to the U.S. government on a platter.

        According to this story, Daniel Tzvetkoff was a young Australian entrepreneur who set up the payment processing schemes used by the biggest poker sites to handle their (mostly illegal) transactions.

        He is described by those who know him as a "boy wonder" and "genius" who started his first company at 13 and knew all the intricacies of e-commerce.

        He made Full Tilt Poker and Poker Stars millions of dollars — and made as much as $150,000 a day for himself — but then got even more greedy and started taking their. They sued him, accusing Tzvetkoff of taking more than $100 million of their money.

        Then last April, Tzvetkoff was arrested in Las Vegas and charged with the same crimes those sites' founders were charged with today: money laundering, bank fraud, wire fraud. As an Australian citizen with a lot of cash, he was considered a flight risk and denied bail.

        Then after a "secret" meeting with prosecutors last August, he was suddenly out on bail. And now his former colleagues are the ones facing serious prison time.

        Daniel Tzvetkoff knows the operations of these poker sites inside and out. It was knowledge of the financial industry that allowed them to operate. He's the one man positioned to give the U.S. Attorneys everything they needed to take down their businesses.

        And it looks like that's exactly what he did, cooperating with the authorities to avoid his own lengthy jail sentence.

        All the major gambling prosecutions in the U.S. since Tzvetkoff's arrest have been run out of the office of Arlo Devlin-Brown, the Manhattan Asst. U.S. Attorney who is Tzvetkoff's "handler."
        According to a source, Tzvetkoff "knows how to reverse-engineer transactions to determine its original source," making him very valuable to investigators.

        And the biggest irony of all? It's been rumored that the only reason the FBI got their hands on him is because Full Tilt or Poker Stars (the companies he used to work for and stole from) tipped off the FBI that he was going to be traveling to the United States last year.

        They ratted him out ... and he turned the tables. No honor among thieves.

        And as the Courier Mail put it, if this were still the old days, he'd buried in the Las Vegas desert right now.

        Read more:
        Poker Indictments: Daniel Tzvetkoff May Have Given Up The Online Poker Industry To The Feds
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  • Profile picture of the author KenThompson
    I'm probably in the minority, but I am anyway so who cares, but I have
    always wondered why online gambling should be illegal in the US in the
    first place.

    Years ago I read something about revenues dropping in AC and LV, and
    of course the rise and popularity of online gambling was implicated.

    In my mind, simple math, and it's not like money doesn't talk in this country,
    or any other.

    I've never been to a gambling casino. But I have always read that the odds
    are in favor of the house which only makes sense from a business perspective,
    maybe.

    So if that is true, and the OP later used the word, scam/sham, or whatever...

    Well then...


    Ken
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  • Profile picture of the author John7447
    Once they find a way to tax it and license it and give the license to their relatives .The government will be all for it .Why doesn't the FBI go down to Wall Street and put the cuffs on the Banksters that stole a trillion dollars from U.S homeowners .
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  • Profile picture of the author SocialMediaOwls
    You mean money is better placed in the hands of citizens instead of a wasteful system? Are you sure about that?

    I'm told to just send all my money to the government and they will take care of me through sickness and in health.

    I shall follow blindly...
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    • Profile picture of the author askloz
      I just noticed... your in Las Vegas?

      Me too, small world!

      whats your local casino?

      mines the venetian

      Originally Posted by SocialMediaOwls View Post

      You mean money is better placed in the hands of citizens instead of a wasteful system? Are you sure about that?.
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  • Profile picture of the author askloz
    ROTFLMAO S.M.O

    too funny!

    best of luck in that endeavor

    guess what?

    UK aint no different... they just raised the retirement to another year... all that money my mum and dad paid over the years, and they've got 100K pound + a year jobs, well, did before the ecomony went nuts thanks to Mr Bush!

    So now she's gotta wait, and she's a diabetic too and cant get any meds either for another year, my dad's gotta come up with it!
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  • Profile picture of the author SocialMediaOwls
    Yeah, we moved our biz here so we now only pay Uncle Sam. No corporate OR personal tax.

    I like the Venetian, mostly do the Bellagio as the misses loves Le Cirque french restaurant. But I'm super lazy man, there is a casino off Flamingo Road close to my house and I just hit that....he he
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    • Profile picture of the author askloz
      Cool...

      well,its my birthday 28th april... I'm heading down the casino

      if your not doing anything, I'll come and play some poker with ya

      Originally Posted by SocialMediaOwls View Post

      Yeah,

      we moved our biz here so we now only pay Uncle Sam. No corporate OR personal tax.

      I like the Venetian, mostly do the Bellagio as the misses loves Le Cirque french restaurant. But I'm super lazy man, there is a casino off Flamingo Road close to my house and I just hit that....he he
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  • Profile picture of the author celente
    I use to be involved in this niche. But looks like I got out in time.

    I guess these changes and crackdowns were coming. Maybe i saw and felt this intuitively who knows, but this is another great lesson for all marketers taht you should never ever EVER put all your eggs in one basket.
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    • Profile picture of the author J Bold
      Originally Posted by celente View Post

      I use to be involved in this niche. But looks like I got out in time.

      I guess these changes and crackdowns were coming. Maybe i saw and felt this intuitively who knows, but this is another great lesson for all marketers taht you should never ever EVER put all your eggs in one basket.
      Let the cliches continue!

      And so appropriate for Easter, as someone else remarked...
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  • Profile picture of the author SocialMediaOwls
    You play craps? Craps is my game...
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    • Profile picture of the author askloz
      YUP, YUP, and blackjack and occasionally roulette

      I get my ass handed to me sometimes in Craps though, i keep going for the sucker field bets.

      its not so bad when you see a roller hitting the fields most of the time, but when the regulars come in, ya know, concentrating on their elbows and what not so they can get the die to just stop as it hits the felt, thats when I get my ass handed to me, every time

      Had some good success at the Trump in Atlantic City on craps, made $7k in 4 days, doing $100 bets just on fields

      Originally Posted by SocialMediaOwls View Post

      You play craps? Craps is my game...
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  • Profile picture of the author mikedolf123
    22 Apr 2011 ... Well in an ever growing crack down (A GOOD THING) online gambling sites will soon be gone for good in the US Online gambling: FBI shuts down ...
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  • Profile picture of the author SocialMediaOwls
    wow, that is some luck man....yeah, you know the guys that roll up to the table and go "$10 YO!"

    I just look at that chip and go....yep, might as well be a trash can at that space. Man, I don't think I've ever played the field to tell you the truth. I'm a come line HO.
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    • Profile picture of the author askloz
      Originally Posted by SocialMediaOwls View Post

      wow, that is some luck man....
      hehee, tell me about it, you should of seen the pit bosses!

      purting their lips to sound a kiss.... "Board plays $100 chip!"...

      They made a lot of money from me that day, giving them huge tips!

      Originally Posted by SocialMediaOwls View Post

      yeah, you know the guys that roll up to the table and go "$10 YO!"

      I just look at that chip and go....yep, might as well be a trash can at that space. Man, I don't think I've ever played the field to tell you the truth. I'm a come line HO.


      K, perhaps you can show me some tricks then

      I'll pop by with a grand and take it easy...

      Wanna head down there next week?
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  • Profile picture of the author spectrefax
    Wow, the ignorance in this thread toward online poker is astounding. I have been involved with poker online for quite some time, guess it's just a shocker to see how the general public views the game.

    "Bad", "wrong", "gambling", "luck", etc
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  • Profile picture of the author SocialMediaOwls
    Damn right we will do it next week. You name the casino.

    ALL THE HARD WAYS FOR THE DEALERS!

    Oh, yeah, press my 6 and 8.....he he he
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    • Profile picture of the author askloz
      OK, cool... check the phone number out on the site and give us a text message with ya number... I'll buzz ya when Im about to leave.

      which casino? dunno, where there are hot players? and 10x odds or something, with like 50k max tables...

      Ceasers has one that large...

      but hey, im not fussed, a casino is a casino

      Originally Posted by SocialMediaOwls View Post

      Damn right we will do it next week. You name the casino.

      ALL THE HARD WAYS FOR THE DEALERS!

      Oh, yeah, press my 6 and 8.....he he he
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  • Profile picture of the author SocialMediaOwls
    Oh yeah, nice pic of you and Mel on Catalina.....that's where I got married...
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    • Profile picture of the author askloz
      Yeh, she's a Class-A Girl... very smart... works for the CIA as a translator along side her political science.. she speaks 5 languages. Shes only 22 there 15 yrs younger than me



      Originally Posted by SocialMediaOwls View Post

      Oh yeah, nice pic of you and Mel on Catalina.....that's where I got married...
      Nice spot to choose... I got burnt like a proper kipper there...
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  • Profile picture of the author SocialMediaOwls
    Been awhile since I've been to Ceasers...

    I'll meet you at any of them. I'll buzz you now
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    • Profile picture of the author askloz
      good chatting with ya bud

      see ya in a few days!

      Originally Posted by SocialMediaOwls View Post

      Been awhile since I've been to Ceasers...

      I'll meet you at any of them. I'll buzz you now
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      • Profile picture of the author SocialMediaOwls
        Originally Posted by askloz View Post

        good chatting with ya bud

        see ya in a few days!
        Yep, a much needed strip run....it's going to do me good
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        • Profile picture of the author askloz
          get hydrated, cos there's gonna be a LOT of drinking!


          Originally Posted by SocialMediaOwls View Post

          Yep, a much needed strip run....it's going to do me good
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          • Profile picture of the author Marty S
            Originally Posted by Sean A McAlister View Post

            As with anything in business, diversification is key and you should never
            rely on just one means of income.


            What are your thoughts on this?


            Sean
            Sure Sean. I think it's hard to argue with diversification, but as an experienced and successful poker product marketer for more than 5 years, I can take those same skills and use them in other niches. However, I will probably be down 40% until this gets resolved.

            I think most established poker marketers will have no problem earning in other markets because the online poker market has been very competitive for years.

            Aside from diversification, the online poker backbone is flush with all kinds of talent ranging from marketing and seo to programming and graphics. I would also add that online poker has helped propel the entirety of internet technology. In other words, I would be more concerned about a poker marketer entering YOUR niche now, rather than wondering how they will cope with these latest challenges.

            Originally Posted by Chris Worner View Post

            Lol if you think this situation will mean the end of online poker in the United States. It's already been/in the progress of being legalized in many states.
            Agreed. It will return USA sanctioned, in different forms and partnerships. There is just too much potential income for the US and State govts to let the market die.

            Originally Posted by Sean A McAlister View Post

            What I'm saying is a "Good Thing" is....
            that all of the Shams that are taking peoples money and effecting lives are being relentlessly being targeted online.
            Sorry Sean, but this has nothing at all to do with Online poker.

            Originally Posted by paulie888 View Post

            Of course, there's more of an element of skill involved when you're playing live poker, as opposed to online poker, since the other players can see your face and reactions.

            Paul
            Haha. Oh really. Online poker has advanced the skill level and competition in poker TEN-fold in the last 5 years. The most skilled players in the world earned their rolls online. Most pros will also tell you that those live "tells" don't really mean a lot - except for in movies.

            Originally Posted by spectrefax View Post

            Wow, the ignorance in this thread toward online poker is astounding. I have been involved with poker online for quite some time, guess it's just a shocker to see how the general public views the game.

            "Bad", "wrong", "gambling", "luck", etc
            You beat me to it!
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            • Profile picture of the author Sean A McAlister
              Originally Posted by Marty S View Post

              Sorry Sean, but this has nothing at all to do with Online poker.

              Hey Marty, It's not whether it's online poker or XYZ widgets...any company in which thousands of people are representing and earning a living from who in turn practices unethical business, launders money etc ....is not good.

              The premise does have to do with Online Poker or any other niche in which shady business practices are being employed at the expense of all those who help build the company.
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              • Profile picture of the author spectrefax
                Originally Posted by Sean A McAlister View Post

                Hey Marty, It's not whether it's online poker or XYZ widgets...any company in which thousands of people are representing and earning a living from who in turn practices unethical business, launders money etc ....is not good.

                The premise does have to do with Online Poker or any other niche in which shady business practices are being employed at the expense of all those who help build the company.
                No offense, but you really should educate yourself a bit more on this niche before passing judgement and condemning those involved.

                I can't speak for any other site, but Pokerstars has to be one of the most honest, stand-up, and trustworthy businesses I have ever seen. There have been many speed bumps in the past few years in online poker and not once, at ANY time, did pokerstars not go above and beyond what was required of them to offer the best possible service to their customers in regards to the integrity of their game, handling of player funds, and everything in between.

                From what I understand, they believed they were operating in accordance with US law through loop-holes in the UIGEA to provide a service that millions of americans wanted while making US companies (through which they processed transactions and supposedly 'hurt') insane profits. How much of this is true will be decided in a court of law.

                Even now, when the US has pretty much slammed the door in the face of Pokerstars, they work diligently to 'do the right thing' and return US players funds ASAP. This is money they are paying out-of-pocket as the DOJ has millions in US assets frozen at the moment.

                If online businesses ran with even half of the integrity that pokerstars has shown in the face of adversity over the years, the internet would be a much safer place for the consumer.

                It should tell you something when charges like this are made publicly against a company and the world wide consumer base is so loyal that they rally support and continue to support this company through use of its service.

                So please, step off the pedestal and educate yourself first before looking down on others.
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                • Profile picture of the author Sean A McAlister
                  Originally Posted by spectrefax View Post

                  No offense, but you really should educate yourself a bit more on this niche before passing judgement and condemning those involved.

                  No offense taken....but as the the sub-headline of the article reads.....which gives you the clue....

                  FBI shuts down Internet poker sites.
                  Major online gambling sites are shut down and their founders charged with bank fraud and money laundering. Prosecutors are seeking to recover $3 billion from the Internet poker sites.
                  and that's 3 BILLION with a "B".


                  Originally Posted by spectrefax View Post

                  From what I understand, they believed they were operating in accordance with US law through loop-holes in the UIGEA to provide a service that millions of americans wanted while making US companies (through which they processed transactions and supposedly 'hurt') insane profits. How much of this is true will be decided in a court of law.
                  Operating in accordance with federal laws are one thing to keep the sites running...what's being done with the cash once they get it is a whole different thing (if it's true)

                  I really could care less about what niche it's in... as far as the poker niche...I play the game very frequently and have 2 of my own sites promoting Full Tilt for over 2 years now (and around $1,100 tied up now in my Full Tilt account)....which will probably be no longer and a loss.

                  I chose to promote them because of the very reasons you outline. On the surface both sites seem to be on the up and up. So I invested time, money and energy like the rest of us who operate in that niche.

                  I don't think that any law enforcement / FTC would randomly slap cases on businesses for that much money if there was not some form of evidence to support it.

                  I'm not condemning anyone just offering the opinion that if the allegations are true then it's not good for folks like us, players and employees of the companies.

                  Perhaps you should step off your pedestal.....I was just trying to have a discussion about it which would involve both sides. I read the article and thought it would be great to discuss....not bash people.
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                • Profile picture of the author Patrick Pretty
                  Originally Posted by spectrefax View Post

                  It should tell you something when charges like this are made publicly against a company and the world wide consumer base is so loyal that they rally support and continue to support this company through use of its service.
                  Yes. It tells me that some IMers don't take the time to understand the context of a $3 billion MONEY-LAUNDERING and BANK-FRAUD case that has ties to an alleged $275 million IM scam operating out of Nevada and Utah. The Nevada/Utah scam, as alleged by the FTC, involved a hidden, forced-continuity billing scheme, 10 corporations, FIFTY-ONE "shell" companies and THREATS to consumers who sought chargebacks.

                  It also tells me that some IMers prefer to do no research because it's easier to pop off in forums than actually to understand the context of the poker case, its ties to the FTC case and the deadly serious issue of money-laundering in general.

                  At least two of the defendants charged in the poker case have ties to a person named a defendant in the FTC case.

                  Over the years, some of IM's greatest purported brainiacs have declared it best to "test" the effectiveness of hidden-continuity schemes and do a cost-benefits analysis, as opposed to abandoning deceptive practices and speaking out against reprehensible billing schemes.

                  Your kneejerk response to the money-laundering and bank-fraud case reminded me of the reaction by some affiliates of the alleged AdSurfDaily Ponzi scheme.

                  IMers by the thousands initially rallied to defend AdSurfDaily, a Florida company implicated by the U.S. Secret Service in a $110 million Ponzi scheme. They raced to forums to "defend" the company; they started letter-writing campaigns to "support" the company; they circulated "petitions" calling for the Senate to investigate the prosecutors; they called for the Attorney General of Florida to be charged with Deceptive Trade Practices and for a Florida TV station to be charged with the same offense; they claimed their freedoms were being abridged; they tried to intervene in the forfeiture case by claiming the government had no "EVIDENCE"; they tried to sue the government on the preposterous theories that the Secret Service was interfering with commerce and that the judge and prosecutors were conspiring to deny them justice.

                  They pooh-poohed or ignored each and every allegation and did everything but THINK about the context of the case and the ramifications on economic security and national security. Their concern was the make the world safe for THEIR IM profits, regardless of how the profits were obtained and regardless of the effect on the Grandmas and Grandpas and the businesses of the world that need a safe place to deposit their Social Security checks or the proceeds of their hard work.

                  The reason I used the word "initially" above in the context of some IMers' instant, kneejerk reaction to the ASD case was because ASD's support largely evaporated over time as more and more damning information dripped out. The prosecution did not initially reveal much of the evidence it had, choosing to wait until the most strategically beneficial time.

                  One kernel it revealed more than two years into the case was that it had tied some of the money to a now-defunct payment processor in California whose operator was linked to multiple Ponzi schemes and accused of arranging the contract murder of his wife. It also came out over time that the operator of a company that allegedly provided debit cards to ASD had helped a Colombian narcotics-trafficking business launder money at ATMs in Medellin and agreed to accept $100,000 to launder cash in the Dominican Republic.

                  The debit-card provided is now listed as "Wanted" by INTERPOL.

                  No bank is safe if it is polluted by money-launderers and bogus corporate paperwork that masks the source of deposits that flow into the bank before heading elsewhere. The U.S. system nearly collapsed not all that long ago because of manipulations by criminals and fraudsters, much of it done under the banner of "freedom" and "free markets."

                  How free is anybody going to be if criminals are permitted to launder money and effectively mask the source of their funds by disguising them as proceeds from the sale of golf balls, jewelry and bicycles? Commerce depends on trust. If banks and financial institutions fail, then freedom itself fails.

                  The United States is a sovereign nation. It has thrown down the gauntlet to domestic and international money-launderers of all stripes because it knows that the threat to the financial infrastructure is real.

                  The U.S. banking system has experienced an attack of a thousand tiny cuts. Organized criminals and unfriendly, murky figures are seeking to deny Americans their most cherished freedoms. It is a sad reality that many of the attackers are operating under the banner of "Internet Marketing" -- but it is an inspirational sight indeed to see law enforcement launching a coordinated, sustained attack on entities that have no respect for widowed Grandma or the noble, corner barber who has opened his shop at precisely 7:30 a.m. for the past 50 years and cut hair all day long to put his children and grandchildren though college.

                  These murky figures also have no respect for Internet Marketers. The only thing they care about is how much money they can drain from the U.S. economy.

                  And how to get the cash out of the country through their shell companies and criminal networks, of course.

                  Originally Posted by spectrefax View Post

                  So please, step off the pedestal and educate yourself first before looking down on others.
                  Get a clue.

                  Patrick
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                  • Profile picture of the author Sean A McAlister
                    Originally Posted by pmbrent View Post

                    I just went to fulltiltpoker.net and it's still up and running. I'm not sure what exactly they "shut down"?
                    Yes, the play money site is available however, there is no longer a Cash Site. .Com = $Cash Site -now it redirects to the play money site.

                    Originally Posted by Patrick Pretty View Post


                    Your kneejerk response to the money-laundering and bank-fraud case reminded me of the reaction by some affiliates of the alleged AdSurfDaily Ponzi scheme.


                    Originally Posted by Patrick Pretty View Post


                    No bank is safe if it is polluted by money-launderers and bogus corporate paperwork that masks the source of deposits that flow into the bank before heading elsewhere. The U.S. system nearly collapsed not all that long ago because of manipulations by criminals and fraudsters, much of it done under the banner of "freedom" and "free markets."

                    How free is anybody going to be if criminals are permitted to launder money and effectively mask the source of their funds by disguising them as proceeds from the sale of golf balls, jewelry and bicycles? Commerce depends on trust. If banks and financial institutions fail, then freedom itself fails.

                    The United States is a sovereign nation. It has thrown down the gauntlet to domestic and international money-launderers of all stripes because it knows that the threat to the financial infrastructure is real.

                    The U.S. banking system has experienced an attack of a thousand tiny cuts. Organized criminals and unfriendly, murky figures are seeking to deny Americans their most cherished freedoms.

                    It is a sad reality that many of the attackers are operating under the banner of "Internet Marketing" -- but it is an inspirational sight indeed to see law enforcement launching a coordinated, sustained attack on entities that have no respect for widowed Grandma or the noble, corner barber who has opened his shop at precisely 7:30 a.m. for the past 50 years and cut hair all day long to put his children and grandchildren though college.

                    These murky figures also have no respect for Internet Marketers. The only thing they care about is how much money they can drain from the U.S. economy.

                    And how to get the cash out of the country through their shell companies and criminal networks, of course.

                    Get a clue.

                    Patrick
                    I could not of illustrated it any better.

                    here's a prime example ( one of too many), look at the at the NY Mets... the major leagues are going to have to bail the owners out because they lost their Cash to mr. ponzi himself...

                    Bernard L. Madoff

                    Dec. 11, 2008, Mr. Madoff was arrested at his Manhattan home by federal agents and charged in a 20-year Ponzi scheme that was the largest fraud in Wall Street history.

                    On March 12, 2009, Mr. Madoff pleaded guilty to all the federal charges filed against him — 11 felony counts, including securities fraud, money laundering and perjury. And on June 29, he was sentenced by a federal judge to the maximum prison term: 150 years. He began serving his sentence four months later.

                    In May 2010, about 720,000 Madoff investors outside the United States settled with their banks, receiving about $15.5 billion in all, according to law firms representing them.

                    The total shown on Madoff investor account statements on the eve of the fraud’s collapse in 2008 was nearly $65 billion, the sum of fictional paper profits that had accumulated in some accounts for decades. Irving H. Picard, the court-appointed trustee representing Mr. Madoff's victims in the United States, has collected to date about $10 billion through settlements and asset sales. Mr. Picard estimated the total cash losses in the fraud at $20 billion. (..per NY Times article )

                    ...I'm not sure about anyone else....but I'd like to keep my cash and
                    feel good about how I earned it.... & hopefully have helped a few folks
                    along the way.

                    gotta ask yourself...who can you trust.

                    Silver is going up...that's the best investment you can make right now!
                    (results may vary :-)

                    ...that's a whole bunch of "B's
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                  • Profile picture of the author Marty S
                    Originally Posted by Patrick Pretty View Post

                    How free is anybody going to be if criminals are permitted to launder money and effectively mask the source of their funds by disguising them as proceeds from the sale of golf balls, jewelry and bicycles? Commerce depends on trust. If banks and financial institutions fail, then freedom itself fails.
                    The banking trust has absolutely been compromised in this case and that much I agree. The DOJ appears to have enough evidence in this regard, so our only hope as poker players is that something can be worked out and Americans will eventually be free to play the game they love.

                    However, PokerStars and Full Tilt used these tactics to PAY their US customers and affiliates, not steal from them. So bringing names like Madoff and terms like "ponzi" into this discussion is even weaker than the premise of this entire thread. I challenge anyone to link to a single grievance against one of these sites for non-payment or anything remotely close to swindling money from their customers. Trust me, American poker players feel far more screwed by their government than any online poker site or financial institution.

                    Might I also add that their elimination from the US market has crippled an industry of affiliates and 3rd party business all operating with the belief that Americans should be free to choose to play a game that has been part of the American culture for more than 200 years.

                    So you can talk about freedom from criminals as that seems to be your thing, but this is more about freedom of choice to play a skill game, at least as far as poker players are concerned.
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  • Profile picture of the author James Campbell
    Originally Posted by Sean A McAlister View Post

    Well in an ever growing crack down (A GOOD THING) online gambling sites
    will soon be gone for good in the US

    Online gambling: FBI shuts down Internet poker sites - latimes.com

    Two of the biggest sites on the net FullTilt Poker and Pokerstars
    have already been shut down.

    I'm sure thousands of affiliate have just seen their income fall off the map.

    I received an email from a friend who's sole business was built around
    the Online Gambling niche who is now desperate.

    I asked if he was diversified in any other way.

    The Answer = NO

    That's not good.

    As with anything in business, diversification is key and you should never
    rely on just one means of income.


    What are your thoughts on this?


    Sean

    Lol, you're about a week behind on this one.

    I posted this news the day it happened.
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  • Profile picture of the author msb1040
    I don't understand why they shut them down
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  • Profile picture of the author fanimal
    Looks like Full Tilt and PokerStars have already their domains back (UB and AP sill do not work). We will see how it will develop. Obviously they do not accept US players.
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    • Profile picture of the author Marty S
      Originally Posted by fanimal View Post

      Looks like Full Tilt and PokerStars have already their domains back (UB and AP sill do not work). We will see how it will develop. Obviously they do not accept US players.
      Correct. In addition they are operating within a new agreement hammered out with the DOJ and are working to make sure all Americans can cash out soon. As a Canadian I have received funds post-DOJ in relatively normal time frames.

      Even without the USA players, Full Tilt Poker and Poker Stars are still the most popular poker sites online currently.

      If you have a poker site, this would NOT be the time to sell it really, because there will be a variety of new opportunities when federal and state regulations permit new partnerships.
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  • Profile picture of the author pmbrent
    I just went to fulltiltpoker.net and it's still up and running. I'm not sure what exactly they "shut down"?
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    • Profile picture of the author askloz
      isn't the .com the one you put money into?

      and the .net is the play money?

      I dont play online, too many scammers on there.

      better off playing in person to kick some royal butt

      Originally Posted by pmbrent View Post

      I just went to fulltiltpoker.net and it's still up and running. I'm not sure what exactly they "shut down"?
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  • Profile picture of the author Chris Worner
    Expanding on what Marty has said above, despite all these allegations by the DoJ, the fact that poker players worldwide still choose to load money onto these sites and play speaks volumes about how people feel about these websites and the allegations made against them.

    Chris
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  • Profile picture of the author CPA Andrew
    I still don't understand how the FBI have major say in this. A private company in Israel owns PokerStars...
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  • Profile picture of the author veeco
    Full Tilt Poker - Learn from the Pros <- they back online since last week ? maybe FBI was wrong ?
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  • Profile picture of the author masterjere
    WOW SEAN, I am almost speechless, I was an AVID poker player for a long time and those are two HUGE sites, I can't believe how much money was "seized" or "stopped" PER DAY, if you think about it.... of that rake... I mean it must be millions a day, no joke. I heard PokerStars was taking in about 2.6M a DAY and I was like no way... Then there was that ridiculous scam that was being pulled by that group of players that had "admin access" and saw eachother cards of all the opposing players - cheated out of their minds, and took hundreds of millions off players, who knows where that ended up too... Wow. Just this Online Gambling stuff is a "broken record it seems" Can't get over it... Good post dude!

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  • Profile picture of the author SuspectZero
    Interesting, Full Tilt and Pokerstars are like the biggest sites. And I have an account with pokerstars....better check if I can access my funds!!

    Update:

    Logged into my pokerstars account all seemed to be as normal my funds are still there and I was able to play???

    Not sure if they have been allowed to resume or if this was all some kind of PR stunt or something but my account is working and so is the site.
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