136 replies
Hello warriors i have a question for you, is MLM a scam? I'm asking this because there is a bunch of people that are saying MLM is a rip off/ scam but on the other half there are a lot of people saying that MLM is not a scam. well can you guys answer this question for me - Is MLM a scam or not?
#mlm #scam
  • Profile picture of the author Headfirst
    It's all what you make of it.

    Are there scams? Sure, but I also know a few people making their living at it and have for years.

    You cant lump an entire industry into a single "is it a scam" question.
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  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
    There is no universally correct answer to that question.

    It's like asking "Are all car salesmen crooks?" No, but some are. Ask about specific techniques and principles, not whole groups of people, and you might get a useful answer.


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  • Profile picture of the author AnnaHamer
    MLM is not a scam, but you have to work ten times harder than you would with regular more traditional IM. It seems to me when we did it only the fat cats at the top get most of the cream while the guys at the bottom slave away to bring all money.
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  • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
    Banned
    Originally Posted by imagoodguy View Post

    Is MLM a scam or not?
    It isn't.

    But many business opportunities presenting themselves as MLM are scams. Especially in this economy in which so many people's judgement-standards are a little compromised by their desire for additional income.

    The problem is that only a very tiny proportion of people really understand what MLM is, and it's dead easy for almost anything to pretend to be MLM where it's actually something illegal. Many of these "opportunities" do eventually get chased out of business by legal/regulatory agencies, but that tends to be after they've traded for some time and enough complaints have built up about them, and large numbers of people have been duped.

    It's very much "caveat emptor", but it's actually a little worse than even that suggests, because it's caveat emptor in a misinformational minefield.

    Even the majority of the people who are involved in proper, legal, decent MLM's mistakenly imagine that MLM is "the same as" network marketing. (It isn't - there's some overlap but the legal definitions are different).

    Fact, and reliable information, are notoriously difficult to come by.

    The problem isn't with "MLM": it's with all the things pretending to be MLM that aren't, but are scams instead.

    Sometimes it takes a court to determine which is which.

    So the general public has very little chance of distinguishing between them.
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    • Profile picture of the author imagoodguy
      Thank for the great answers. i thought network marketing was the same as MLM also, what is the difference between the two?
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      • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
        Banned
        Originally Posted by imagoodguy View Post

        Thank for the great answers. i thought network marketing was the same as MLM also, what is the difference between the two?
        An MLM company is a network marketing company in which the commissions paid to associates/distributors on sales of the company's products or services are divided between multiple levels of distributors.

        There are also some network marketing companies in which they're not.

        Both are variations of "direct sales" companies, but of course there are also thousands of other direct sales companies, worldwide, which have nothing to do with network marketing at all.

        Here's the "hierarchy" ...

        - Direct sales companies, some of which are ...
        ---Network marketing companies, some of which are also ...
        -----MLM companies.

        The exact legal classifications can vary (but actually surprisingly little) from country to country, but that's a general overview, anyway. What does vary a great deal between different countries is the process of licensing, registering and regulation of companies according to whether they're MLM companies or just network marketing companies.
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        • Profile picture of the author imagoodguy
          wow i never knew that, i always thought I.M and mlm and such was all the same, i wondered why there wasn't a section on this forum talking about MLM, like there is of CPA
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          • Profile picture of the author ronc0011
            In general the definition of a scam MLM business the distributor is required to maintain X amount of inventory or to move X amount of product in order to remain a distributor. The end result of this is that the distributors become the end customer.

            This type of business is built on the MLM model. This is where the distinction lies. The MLM model in and of its self doesn't require anyone to buy product. It is just a pay structure and nothing more. For instance you can apply the model to anything and never require anyone to buy anything in order to remain a distributor or affiliate. PeopleString uses an MLM business model. You don't have to buy anything, all they want you to do is spread the word and get people to join. I forget how many levels deep they pay you for but it is possible to build an organization that can net you several thousand $ a month without ever spending a dime of your own money. Although, now that I think of it they may have changed that now. There may now be some fee to join at that level.

            There are also some very large companies who use the MLM business model. In fact there was a major telecom company who used it ( I forget their name ). I'm working with a large hosting provider who uses the MLM business model.
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          • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
            Originally Posted by imagoodguy View Post

            wow i never knew that, i always thought I.M and mlm and such was all the same, i wondered why there wasn't a section on this forum talking about MLM, like there is of CPA
            Because the Warrior Forum is about MAKING money, not losing it or stealing it.

            ~M~
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            • Profile picture of the author Tsnyder
              Originally Posted by Michael Oksa View Post

              Because the Warrior Forum is about MAKING money, not losing it or stealing it.

              ~M~
              Silly... silly... silly...

              Tsnyder
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            • Profile picture of the author ibarigroup
              Originally Posted by Michael Oksa View Post

              Because the Warrior Forum is about MAKING money, not losing it or stealing it.

              ~M~
              really? must not have seen some of the WSO's or product promos
              I've seen on here then. Lol
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  • Profile picture of the author AskJesusLeon
    Originally Posted by simonbuzz View Post

    Some companies are scam and some are not...u have to choose the right one...
    Exactly, just do your homework my friend.
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    • Profile picture of the author Steve L
      i don't think there is anything wrong with the business model itself. it's just that most mlm companies tend to have crappy products, which is why their marketing tends to focus on the business opportunity side of it all.

      i have yet to see an mlm company that has a unique and useful product that people NEED and is of high quality.
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      • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
        Banned
        [DELETED]
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        • Profile picture of the author Dr Dan
          Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

          I agree there aren't very many, but you might want to look at "Send Out Cards".
          I owe alot of my success to MLM. This is where I learned how to speak in public, leadership skills, presentation skills, and a whole lot more.

          The number one earner for send out cards is my first real mentor and great friend Jordon Adler. This is one of the few MLM businesses that I would recommend. He also wrote a book that is available on Amazon that is a must read: Beach Money - Jordan Adler

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          • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
            Banned
            Originally Posted by Dr Dan View Post

            The number one earner for send out cards is my first real mentor and great friend Jordon Adler.
            I didn't know this, but how interesting! I've certainly previously seen this book very highly recommended by some people I know to be very successful in MLM. Thanks, Dr Dan.
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            • Profile picture of the author Dr Dan
              Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

              I didn't know this, but how interesting! I've certainly previously seen this book very highly recommended by some people I know to be very successful in MLM. Thanks, Dr Dan.
              Your welcome and it is a great read. Plus Jordan is just an amazing down to earth guy. Def one of my top 3 friends and mentors.
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          • Profile picture of the author Willie Crawford
            Originally Posted by Dr Dan View Post

            I owe alot of my success to MLM. This is where I learned how to speak in public, leadership skills, presentation skills, and a whole lot more.

            The number one earner for send out cards is my first real mentor and great friend Jordon Adler. This is one of the few MLM businesses that I would recommend. He also wrote a book that is available on Amazon that is a must read: Beach Money - Jordan Adler


            I joined SOC 5 years ago, and did very little with it other than
            use the product, as I watched how it was managed, etc.

            It does pass all of my tests including not over-charging
            distributors for supplies, not circumventing distributors,
            etc.

            Do ask yourself, would you use the product, irrespective of
            the income opportunity... since that is what you are asking
            your retail customer to do. If you answer is no, then keep
            looking.

            Jordan's ok too and his book beach money is part of what
            finally got me actively building there.

            I did find internet marketing a much easier model than MLM,
            but that was because I kept trying to reinvent the wheel.

            Willie
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        • Profile picture of the author Steve L
          Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

          I agree there aren't very many, but you might want to look at "Forever Living Products" and at "Send Out Cards", then, Steve, if you'd like to change that?

          Both are very well established, legitimate, successful, international MLM companies with products that pretty clearly qualify for both those criteria, and both are companies whose distributors are typically earning their money from regularly re-ordering genuine retail customers making genuine retail purchases of high-quality products which are typically lower than shop prices (i.e. not just sales to distributors buying for themselves in order to "qualify", or anything of the kind).

          (Needless to say, I have no connection at all with either company - other than as a retail customer, in one case).
          i'll check them out, thanks alexa
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          • Profile picture of the author Brad Pollina
            Originally Posted by Steve Longoria View Post

            i'll check them out, thanks alexa
            I too can vouche for Send Out Cards. I've been with them myself for several years and while they are MLM, they are a legit company. If anyone would like to try a 2 card gift account to see for themselves, just PM me.
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            • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
              Banned
              They've grown from absolutely nowhere, over about 7 years(?) to become the third- or fourth-largest greetings card company in the world, on the basis of ultra-high quality, physical, retail products at lower-than-shop prices. Obviously enough, you don't get to do that with a business model that's a "scam", and you don't get to do it with most of your distributors "losing money", either.
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      • Profile picture of the author edakehurst
        Originally Posted by Steve Longoria View Post

        i don't think there is anything wrong with the business model itself. it's just that most mlm companies tend to have crappy products, which is why their marketing tends to focus on the business opportunity side of it all.

        i have yet to see an mlm company that has a unique and useful product that people NEED and is of high quality.
        LOL! You might want to PM me then. I am a very successful MLMer that belongs to a company with an excellent product needed and sued by everyone (but geographically limited). We do not even have to buy the product to earn commissions.

        Not all MLM companies are scams. I belong to two of them that are not, one I've been in for years. I have seen several that are. You just need to do your due diligence.

        I love MLM (and network marketing) because you can leverage your time. Once you have built an organization, you can get the same or more earning and still have time to run other things. MLM is very part time for me (less than 4 hours per week, sometimes much less), yet earns me 1/4 of the total money bring in. I spend 60+ hours a week on my SEO/web design business for the other 3/4 of my earnings. Hour for hour, MLM does better, and the products are a good value for the consumer.

        With that said, there are plenty of MLM companies that are a scam.

        Here are a few things to watch out for:

        1) Never join a company that requires you to recruit people in order to earn a commission. In all cases of MLM, you will make more money if you recruit people, but under no circumstances should you be required to recruit someone to be eligible for commissions.

        2) Your pay should be based on sales not recruiting. It is one thing to earn a bonus or to receive a higher commission for recruiting people, is something else to be paid for. Legitimate network marketing companies, whether MLM or not, pay for selling products or services, not for recruiting people.

        3) The product or service that the company offers speed of good quality, at a competitive price. The reason an MLM company can pay high commissions is because almost all of their advertising costs are eliminated. They pay their affiliates after a sale has been completed, rather than paying an advertising company hoping for sale. Because of this, they can sink what that advertising budget would have been into commissions for the sales force. An MLM product should never cost more than an equal quality product sold by other means.

        4) Before joining any MLM company, you should talk to the customer service department and make sure they are responsive and actually answer the phone. Talk to affiliates other than the one trying to recruit you and make sure the general consensus is that they are happy and satisfied with the company and its products. Do your due diligence.

        5) This is a little less reliable test of whether BM alone company is a scam, but you can search for any BBB complaints or check the AG office to see if any civil or criminal complaints have been filed. Not all such complaints are legitimate, but if there are lots of women is certainly a sign that there may be a problem.

        6) Read all terms of service and conditions and know ahead of time how the product or service can be marketed. Most of us here on the Warrior Forum a relatively proficient at Internet marketing. Many legitimate MLM companies have restrictions on how their product or service can be marketed, especially when the Internet. Some of them do not even allow you to have a website or blog until you've reached a certain love with the company. Make sure that you are able to market via the means allowable by the company before signing up.

        I hope that helps. There are lots of legitimate MLM companies, but you need to do your own research to make sure that the one you're considering joining is not a scam.
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  • Profile picture of the author Rod Cortez
    Originally Posted by imagoodguy View Post

    Hello warriors i have a question for you, is MLM a scam? I'm asking this because there is a bunch of people that are saying MLM is a rip off/ scam but on the other half there are a lot of people saying that MLM is not a scam. well can you guys answer this question for me - Is MLM a scam or not?
    That's like asking if internet marketing is a scam or if offline marketing is a scam. The question that you posed is way too general. Is MLM, in and of itself a scam? No, there are plenty of mlm companies that have operated in my country for 10, 20, 30, even 40 years or longer.

    I personally have no love for mlm. I do not like the business model. Though I had been in it, successfully, for a decade, I decided that it's far smarter to OWN the ladder than to market it.

    These kinds of questions do very little for the forum though, because the haters are going to write negative things, those that do well with mlm or are involved with it are going to defend it.

    If I owned the forum (and it's probably a good thing that I don't), I would ban all questions that involved mlm or at least create a separate forum for it. In all the years I've been here mlm threads rarely end well.

    RoD
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  • Profile picture of the author thomarv29
    The problem most MLM Companies run into is that the focus on the business is finding and recruiting new reps to sell the products and there is never and emphasis on selling the products. If the product has no potential to sell or make the reps money, there is no real business. In 90% of all cases, the MLM Company is only concerned with signing up new reps and getting those fees than selling the product. For instance ACN sells a video phone and bundeling but if you look at what you make on selling the services, there is no money and thus no incentive in ever selling the products... Besides video phone concept failed in the 90's because they are completely worthless unless everyone you call has the same phone lol I think for the most part MLM is a huge rip off and just a bunch of pie in the sky. Only a small percentage of people ever make money and in my book that makes it a failed model.
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    • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
      Banned
      Originally Posted by thomarv29 View Post

      If the product has no potential to sell or make the reps money, there is no real business.
      This is absolutely right. It has to be based on retail sales to retail customers. Otherwise, eventually, there'll probably be legal problems, because of the so-called "70% rule" (in America, anyway).

      Originally Posted by thomarv29 View Post

      Only a small percentage of people ever make money and in my book that makes it a failed model.
      I don't quite agree with this, because although it's true that only a small percentage of people do well, I think that ...

      (i) That's true of most forms of self-employment anyway (you could, for example, say exactly the same of "internet marketing"), and ...

      (ii) Many of those who fail aren't really in MLM: they're in dressed-up scams which are pretending to be MLM, and you can't really hold all their failures against MLM.
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      • Profile picture of the author thomarv29
        Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

        This is absolutely right. It has to be based on retail sales to retail customers. Otherwise, eventually, there'll probably be legal problems, because of the so-called "70% rule" (in America, anyway).



        I don't quite agree with this, because although it's true that only a small percentage of people do well, I think that ...

        (i) That's true of most forms of self-employment anyway (you could, for example, say exactly the same of "internet marketing"), and ...

        (ii) Many of those who fail aren't really in MLM: they're in dressed-up scams which are pretending to be MLM, and you can't really hold all their failures against MLM.
        My statement was geared only toward MLM Opportunities, i would agree thought that most Self-Employment opportunities are just down right scams period. I would say 90% of them all are. However it really depends on where you find the opportunity and your ability to weed out the scams from legitimite opportunities. Any business where you have to pay to get the information to get in is probably a scam. I cant think of one that has ever been legitimate. Of course this is a broad statement so you are free to disagree. Im speaking in generalities rather than specifics so take it as such.
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      • Profile picture of the author stesnees
        I have a friend who does MLM. He has been doing it for over a year and even gave up his full time job to throw everything at it. If you didn't know him you would think he was making millions the way he lives his life in public, but in private to myself he has told me he hasn't made a penny. After recruiting around 14 people he has only been paid around $700 because the people in his downline just cant be bothered, and there lies the 'problem' You have to work at it, just like in IM, if you sit back and wait for the riches to come to you then you will be waiting a very long time.
        This, coupled with the never ending meetings and travelling to try and recruit new people does not appeal to me at all, but is it a scam? Probably not but its the same as everything else in life, there are winners and losers at every level and sometimes you just need a little bit of luck, something which my mate could do with a huge dose of!
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  • Profile picture of the author celente
    this game can make money for alot of people but here are my two warnings

    1) this is full of scams and illegal pyramid schemes.

    2) it is very different to the IM game, but you still have to work your butt off.

    I know someone who make 6 figures a month doing this, but he works non stop.
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    • Profile picture of the author paulie888
      Originally Posted by celente View Post

      2) it is very different to the IM game, but you still have to work your butt off.

      I know someone who make 6 figures a month doing this, but he works non stop.
      This is true, in order for MLM to be a viable business you need to have a consistent recruiting system in place (and/or or have a large network of motivated recruits), because there is typically a high attrition rate in the industry, where people don't stay on for long with a company (due to the fact they don't market or recruit, and as a result they don't make any money!)
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
    ...because of the so-called "70% rule"...
    70% rule, what's that?



    All the best,
    Michael
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  • Profile picture of the author Dr Dan
    Its funny because the MLM and Affiliate Marketing seemed almost identical to me. You are promoting other people service and products with both.

    Also not all MLM require you to pay money other than using the services.

    Alot of people got burned from bad MLM companies or bad sponsors (reps). Or they got made fun of by there friends or family so they now have a bad taste about the whole thing.

    But to say that all MLM businesses are bad or scams is like saying all affiliate marketers are scam artists.
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  • Profile picture of the author SEO Agency
    To those who fails in MLM they consider it scam but for those who become successful in their venture they don't think it is a bogus.
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  • Profile picture of the author Tsnyder
    No... MLM is not a scam. But, like any other business, you
    need to enter with your eyes wide open.

    There are plenty of people out there... just as there are in
    IM... who will attempt to entice you with promises of easy
    riches for very little work.

    These people are lying to you.

    Despite what many people believe, MLM offers an opportunity
    to earn unlimited amounts of money for doing a few simple things
    really well. But... you have to do them consistently and you have
    to do them correctly. No different than any other business.

    You do not have to chase people around... those who do have no
    idea how to build a business successfully.

    I happen to be affiliated with Send Out Cards... one of the legit
    companies mentioned above by Alexa. If you'd like to explore the
    business model further with someone who knows what he's talking
    about feel free to PM me.

    Tsnyder
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    • Profile picture of the author 007bond
      There are many mlm companies that are scamming their affiliates, but there are many that aren't. The concept of mlm is not a scam. Anyone could earn a decent living marketing products via multi level marketing. Although it is not easy. Most do fail. But there are those who have put forth the effort, followed the marketing plan, and have become very successful.
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  • Profile picture of the author jborjaperez
    Hey there!

    Whoever calls it a scam, ask them why.. Is it because they quit? There are for sure, many companies out there that are fly by night.. In business for a few years then disappear. But look for the companies that have been out for 8+ years and they should be real.

    Also, the compensation plan for some companies are better than others.. And some may say, the top person makes all the money, but everyone who signs up has an opportunity to make their own empire. Just depends on what your goals are, Recruiting for your own benefit? OR changing someones life financially as well as emotionally? Like anything in life there are sharks out there but just take everything with a grain of salt and use your own judgement.. It's like internet marketing.. Don't give up, stick to your beliefs, morals and ethics is the last key to success..

    I believe the statistic is the majority of people who STICK with a good company in MLM are 90%+ to make it to their financial goals. I wish I had the numbers for it...

    Good luck!

    -Jared
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    • Profile picture of the author ibarigroup
      The concept of MLM is not a scam, and most of the companies generally arent either. Though, you do find some with bad management; especially as of late.
      But overall, it's a great business model for those that truly choose to work hard at it, and the rewards very worth it. I've had 10 years of success in this industry and recently turned my attention to IM, to build a business here.
      The two are very similiar in that;

      1. hard work pays off and thinking 'get rich quick' = get you broke quick.
      2. you'll find good/great products in mlm just like in IM, but you'll also find some crappy ones too, just like in IM (not just talking about gurus, all WSO aren't great)
      3. You can find ppl that hate either industry if you look for them; and they'll have more than enough reasons as to why it won't work for you.
      4. You'll find people that love the industry and can tell you every reason it will work for you.

      One thing I've learned in my time developing my business is it's best to do my own research and leave the commenters, bloggers and critics to theirs.

      Go get it, if you want it
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  • Profile picture of the author hashif16
    What can i say..soe are scam while some others are not scam..
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  • Profile picture of the author Affili8ing
    MLM is the safest marketing method.
    and that is because you buying the product, sell it to others and maket the product to other people that will join you...
    So It's a real business that pay real money...
    But the big question is where you come in on that peramid...?
    Do you join when the business just started and you at the top, or you joining at the bottom?
    the higher you join the more money you can make
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  • Profile picture of the author Hyaku_Man
    Originally Posted by imagoodguy View Post

    Is MLM a scam or not?
    Yes.

    There are a few people here and there making a living from it, but by and large the vast vast vast majority of people lose a big pile of money in MLM.
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    • Profile picture of the author Tsnyder
      Originally Posted by Hyaku_Man View Post

      Yes.

      There are a few people here and there making a living from it, but by and large the vast vast vast majority of people lose a big pile of money in MLM.

      More nonsense. Where do these people find these silly answers?

      A big pile of money... LOL... most people don't have a big pile of money to lose!

      Tsnyder
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      If you knew what I know you'd be doing what I do...
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      • Profile picture of the author mbarty2010
        Originally Posted by Tsnyder View Post

        More nonsense. Where do these people find these silly answers?

        A big pile of money... LOL... most people don't have a big pile of money to lose!

        Tsnyder
        That's true, the people who join the last lose all their money. They won't have anyone else to sell to.
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        • Profile picture of the author Tsnyder
          Originally Posted by mbarty2010 View Post

          That's true, the people who join the last lose all their money. They won't have anyone else to sell to.
          Was that intended to be a serious response?

          Tsnyder
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          • Profile picture of the author mbarty2010
            Originally Posted by Tsnyder View Post

            Was that intended to be a serious response?

            Tsnyder
            Yes, it is a serious and realistic answer. If all MLM schemes were to make money for everyone who joins it, the down-line would have crossed the population of the world. Well you know that has never happened. A little bit of maths will tell you why.
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            • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
              Banned
              Originally Posted by mbarty2010 View Post

              If all MLM schemes were to make money for everyone who joins it, the down-line would have crossed the population of the world.
              This is utter nonsense.

              It would be true, arguably, if you could make money through MLM only by other people joining the business opportunity and becoming distributors; that happens not to be so, though. (And it most countries it also happens not even to be legal for that to be so).

              Many here are making a living through their MLM distributorships by making genuine retail sales of the company's products/services to genuine retail customers who don't join the business.

              It appears that you have a grotesquely distorted perception of what MLM is.
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              • Profile picture of the author mbarty2010
                Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

                This is utter nonsense.

                It would be true, arguably, if you could make money through MLM only by other people joining the business opportunity and becoming distributors; that happens not to be so, though. (And it most countries it also happens not even to be legal for that to be so).

                Many here are making a living through their MLM distributorships by making genuine retail sales of the company's products/services to genuine retail customers who don't join the business.

                It appears that you have a grotesquely distorted perception of what MLM is.
                What you are saying is just simple single level marketing and not MLM marketing. MLM means building a down-line and if that were to be the case what I had said would have come true.
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                • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
                  Banned
                  Originally Posted by mbarty2010 View Post

                  What you are saying is just simple single level marketing and not MLM marketing.
                  It just isn't. This is wrong.

                  There are many retail sales on which uplines earn commissions which are divided between multiple levels. This is the legal definition of MLM. It isn't "single level marketing".

                  Originally Posted by mbarty2010 View Post

                  MLM means building a down-line and if that were to be the case what I had said would have come true.
                  Nonsense. What you said would have come true only if one HAD to build a downline to make money. One doesn't. And that's part of the test that determines the legality of MLM companies.

                  In America, Canada, most of the EU countries, Australia, South Africa and most of the Far Eastern countries, it's illegal for people to be paid "for recruitment". People are paid commissions only when sales of the company's products are made.

                  Many people make money in MLM companies from retail sales. What's difficult to understand about this? :confused:

                  Michael, if you're reading this, a propos the comments above, this is why I feel sorry for Tsnyder: in almost every single thread on this subject, he has to contend with people who genuinely believe that (for example) "if all MLM schemes were to make money for everyone who join them, the down-line would have crossed the population of the world". Not only is it utter nonsense, but people typically won't even acknowledge that even when you explain to them, palpably and demonstrably, exactly where the mistake is in their "reasoning".

                  They'd still rather try to "be right" than try to learn something.

                  Now that's what I call "prejudice". :rolleyes:
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  • Profile picture of the author ronc0011
    Frankly it seems to me that MLM and IM are a match made in heaven. I'm working with Global Domains International, I'm sure everyone here knows of GDI. GDI is a hosting provider. You sign up for web hosting and immediately become an affiliate. Whether or not you choose to pursue the affiliate opportunities is entirely up to you. You don't have to buy anything extra or sell X amount of service plans. However if you do decide to pursue the affiliate opportunity the company pays on an MLM model.

    Many companies offer affiliate programs when you buy their product but most only pay you per sale i.e. one sell, one commission. For example I bought Market Samaria and signed up for the affiliate program. If I sell a copy of MS from my website I get a commission but to keep getting paid I have to keep selling. GDI on the other hand if I sell a hosting plan I get paid every month, and if that person sells a hosting plan I also get paid and so on down to five levels. Of the two products I think the MLM model will ultimately be the more profitable. Ultimately I could end up with thousands of downline and some of those downline will be the entrepreneurial type and continue to grow the organization even if I quit working at it. This is an MLM marketing model and I am eligible the moment I buy their service but it is their service I'm buying not the business opportunity.

    They are both good products and both in high demand however one has far better profit potential simply because of the marketing model.
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    • Profile picture of the author rperales
      There are a lot of people that will show you how to evaluate a compensation plan.
      If you talk with a marketer, you can be pretty much guaranteed that their advice
      or analysis will be biased in other words they are selling you.

      In this post you'll learn the ONE KEY QUESTION you MUST ASK before you promote any
      network marketing or MLM style company. If you don't you are almost guaranteed
      failure..a fact that hit over 97% may I add, failure is not making a million!

      Listen, don't be a victim learn how to succeed by design not chance.

      The vast majority of network marketers I talk with join the business because of money...
      and by that I mean they want to change their financial situation for the better.

      Many join with a goal...hope that they will get rich..or to get comfortable making
      money from home.

      And this is great...Really!

      A low investment is leading a lot of people into the wrong companies...

      ..not that the companies chosen are no good...they're just not right for their own
      financial goals.

      While almost everyone wants to get rich--even if it's their secret..they don't believe
      they can build a big downline.

      Especially true for those who have been in network marketing for sometime...

      In spite of drawings, circles or whatever...to evaluate a compensation plan is
      completely pointless not knowing the answer to one key question.

      What do I have to do to break even?..

      Imagine helping a downline using a mindset of breaking even..Do you think they will quit?..

      This one question can literally save your network marketing career before you ever get started.

      We can't even begin to think about the money we may make on the efforts of others until we know
      what it will take for us to break even..

      I'm stopping right here and listen, Have A great Day!

      __Rey

      P.S. If it takes 5 to come to break even and show people this plan with help and people not quiting.."sigh" what else can I say? wouldn't most if not all will be able to build a downline?..Duplication of our efforts! The key are sales..plenty to make sales the majority WOW!
      Signature

      Reynaldo Perales

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  • Profile picture of the author mbarty2010
    MLM or Ponzi Schemes are illegal in most countries and should be avoided.
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    • Profile picture of the author Tsnyder
      Originally Posted by mbarty2010 View Post

      MLM or Ponzi Schemes are illegal in most countries and should be avoided.
      Nonsense... MLM companies operate in most countries around the world.

      Tsnyder
      Signature
      If you knew what I know you'd be doing what I do...
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  • Profile picture of the author Tsnyder
    Seriously, Rey? That's the number one question you'd
    ask when considering a new business? What do I have to
    do to break even???

    I think I can safely say that there are many questions I'd ask
    before I got to that one. Truth is, I'd probably never ask that
    question because I'm pretty sure I could figure it out.

    That... and I wouldn't set my goals that low. Break even? Why bother?

    Tsnyder
    Signature
    If you knew what I know you'd be doing what I do...
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  • Profile picture of the author jmasterson
    Originally Posted by imagoodguy View Post

    Hello warriors i have a question for you, is MLM a scam? I'm asking this because there is a bunch of people that are saying MLM is a rip off/ scam but on the other half there are a lot of people saying that MLM is not a scam. well can you guys answer this question for me - Is MLM a scam or not?
    It's not a scam, but it's not the best way to make money... Unless you own the MLM company. Then you're doing well.

    If you join an MLM don't make the mistake of thinking you're "in business." You're essentially a glorified sales person distributing product for the owner of the business. Basically you're a cog in their distribution wheel. It's not your business, it's the MLM owner's business. He sets the rules, he makes the compensation plan, he allows you to get started for a few hundred bucks.

    If you're cool with that - and your cool with having no control over the companies decisions... and you don't mind the fact that they can pull the rug out from under you at any moment... Then go for it ;-)

    Fact is, they can change the compensation plan, discontinue products, set rules, or even close their doors... Then you're out of luck (or onto the next opportunity.)

    I've experienced MLM and have lots of friends who still chase the network marketing "dream..." But I kinda feel sorry for them.
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    • Profile picture of the author Tsnyder
      Originally Posted by jmasterson View Post

      It's not a scam, but it's not the best way to make money... Unless you own the MLM company. Then you're doing well.

      If you join an MLM don't make the mistake of thinking you're "in business." You're essentially a glorified sales person distributing product for the owner of the business. Basically you're a cog in their distribution wheel. It's not your business, it's the MLM owner's business. He sets the rules, he makes the compensation plan, he allows you to get started for a few hundred bucks.

      If you're cool with that - and your cool with having no control over the companies decisions... and you don't mind the fact that they can pull the rug out from under you at any moment... Then go for it ;-)

      Fact is, they can change the compensation plan, discontinue products, set rules, or even close their doors... Then you're out of luck (or onto the next opportunity.)

      I've experienced MLM and have lots of friends who still chase the network marketing "dream..." But I kinda feel sorry for them.

      So... based on your "informative" post my guess is you
      feel kinda sorry for those pursuing an income as affiliate
      marketers for someone else's products...

      It apparently hasn't occurred to you, or many others, that
      the VAST MAJORITY of people who would like to earn additional
      income outside their normal job aren't actually capable of
      accomplishing all the tasks required to actually start and run
      a conventional business of any kind... regardless of the business
      model.

      MLM companies provide people with a turn key business opportunity.
      They do own a business... they own a marketing business... they are
      not employees of the company. Many people, in fact, choose to market
      the products of several different MLM companies... much like IM affiliates.

      As for all the terrible things that might happen... of course they might.
      That's why people should take the time to investigate before making
      commitments. Even after investigating and satisfying oneself that the
      company they've chosen has the right ingredients for success it could
      still go broke.

      That's business... happens every day. People who don't understand
      that should remain at their regular jobs and hope for the security promised
      them by their employers... who would never change their pay or benefit
      plans or go out of business... LOL

      Tsnyder
      Signature
      If you knew what I know you'd be doing what I do...
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      • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
        Banned
        I really feel for you, Tsnyder, in these threads.

        You're in the exact same position here that I'm in, in "article marketing threads" (except of course that you do have rather longer-standing success in your industry than I do in mine! ).

        In all these threads, such a high proportion of the responses are ill-informed, misguided, prejudiced and just plain wrong - on so many different levels - that it must sometimes seem as if it's not even worthwhile trying to correct all the misinformation?

        I admire it and I respect it, but I don't know how you do it.

        Anyway, you have my "vote" on the subject, and I'm glad you're here.
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        • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
          Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

          I really feel for you, Tsnyder, in these threads.

          You're in the exact same position here that I'm in, in "article marketing threads" (except of course that you do have rather longer-standing success in your industry than I do in mine! ).

          In all these threads, such a high proportion of the responses are ill-informed, misguided, prejudiced and just plain wrong - on so many different levels - that it must sometimes seem as if it's not even worthwhile trying to correct all the misinformation?

          I admire it and I respect it, but I don't know how you do it.

          Anyway, you have my "vote" on the subject, and I'm glad you're here.
          And some of the responses are based on actual experience, yet that always seems to be discounted.

          That being said, Tsnyder and I are at near-opposite ends of the spectrum in our feelings on MLM, but you know what? He's one of the Warriors I respect the most. He takes a lot of heat, and handles it well. (And yes, I'm one that throws heat in that general direction)

          He has also garnered a few clicks of the Thanks button; not necessarily because I agree (that's not my main criterion anyway), but because he either made me think or gave an interesting response.

          MLM DOES have problems. Yes, MLM - itself has problems. Ignoring them or pretending they don't exist is silly, but I know how these threads go, just as you and Tsnyder know how they go.

          Personally, if it never came up again, I'd be happy. By that I mean the threads that start out by asking if MLM is good or bad, because it's always the same thing.

          I see tons of the standard MLM responses given, the same lines, the same delusions, the same pat answers...however, I also believe that those who give those answers BELIEVE those answers; they don't give them to deceive, but because they believe them. BUT, I have seen things that tell me those answers are NOT true.

          So, what happens when I give responses based on my actual, real-life experiences? I'll tell you...what happens are responses like the one I quoted above.

          Remember, I am NOT ill-informed, misguided or "just plain wrong". To say I am is akin to calling me a liar. It's saying that my experiences didn't happen, and that's not the case. I will say I AM prejudiced against MLM, but that comes from my experience and seeing of things "behind the curtain". Will you admit to YOUR "pro-MLM" prejudice?

          To be fair, you did say "a high proportion", so I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you are not calling me any of those names.

          To go back to the main intention of this reply: I don't feel sorry for Tsnyder, but I do respect him.

          All the best,
          Michael
          Signature

          "Ich bin en fuego!"
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          • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
            Banned
            Originally Posted by Michael Oksa View Post

            To be fair, you did say "a high proportion", so I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you are not calling me any of those names.
            Sorry - I'm apparently out of "thanks" for the day and can give neither your post nor Terry's reply to it my thanks ... but I assure you that I decidedly wasn't referring to your posts among those I "blackened" - and I'm very pleased to have, and to take, the opportunity to clarify that.

            I was referring to (for example) some on the previous page and many in 30 other threads which include many factual misstatements, as well as opinion offered as fact.

            I have no horse in this race, actually, believe it or not.

            I'm an "ex-MLMer" who made some money from it but gave it up thinking that internet marketing might suit her better and prove more rewarding to the skill-set she possessed (rightly, as it turned out), rather than out of any particular negativity to the "industry" itself. I do see that there are an awful lot of illegal scams about at the moment, pretending to be MLM, and some of them are fooling a lot of the people a lot of the time, and I feel a little sorry "for MLM" because that's happened, though I see that it was perhaps "open to it" in some ways, albeit through no inherent fault of its own.

            Originally Posted by Michael Oksa View Post

            To go back to the main intention of this reply: I don't feel sorry for Tsnyder, but I do respect him.
            I respect him (and yourself, as you know) and, just in this specific context, I feel sorry for him, too: every time "his subject" is discussed, it's against a general/frequent backdrop of prejudice, misinformation and sometimes the promotion of concealed agendas (not necessarily financially motivated ones). And I know that feeling very well, because (in an entirely different context, of course) I also encounter it here very regularly, myself. :p
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      • Profile picture of the author rperales
        Personally...

        ..Tysnyder..it's not a goal is the first step..you must've misunderstood that
        it's a way to start building a downline for the majority of people taken the
        worry of how and when and where do I start..

        If you have not tried it why knock it..I don't see to many people making money.

        Maybe just maybe trying something different can have a more beneficial outcome
        in life!

        __Rey

        P.S. Of course, it's about building a team automatically..
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        Reynaldo Perales

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        • Profile picture of the author Tsnyder
          Originally Posted by rperales View Post

          Personally...

          ..Tysnyder..it's not a goal is the first step..you must've misunderstood that
          it's a way to start building a downline for the majority of people taken the
          worry of how and when and where do I start..

          If you have not tried it why knock it..I don't see to many people making money.

          Maybe just maybe trying something different can have a more beneficial outcome
          in life!

          __Rey

          P.S. Of course, it's about building a team automatically..
          Maybe... just maybe... I have more than three decades
          of experience in this business and know what I'm talking about.

          The question "what do I have to do to break even?" is a question that
          would likely be asked by someone with little knowledge or experience with
          real business matters.

          I can think of a whole list of questions... the answers to which would
          be far more important than that one.

          How about....

          1. Who are the principal owners of the company?
          2. What is their personal experience in operating a business?
          3. What is their personal experience with MLM?
          4. Who manufactures the products I'll be selling?
          5. Who are the top field leaders?
          6. Do those leaders interact with all reps or just those on their team?
          7. What type and scope of training is offered by the company?
          8. Is there a charge for that training?
          9. What are the names and phone numbers of my prospective upline leaders?
          10. How long have you, my prospective sponsor, been with this company?
          11. What have you achieved with this company?
          12. What is the extent of your MLM experience?
          13. What levels of success have you achieved? (I don't think you can teach what you don't know)
          14. If you don't have the knowledge and experience needed to assist me is your upline readily accessible?

          There are more but those should get any newbie started.

          Knowing what I have to do to break even is simple math. Those who
          can't do simple math might consider doing something else.

          Tsnyder
          Signature
          If you knew what I know you'd be doing what I do...
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          • Profile picture of the author Jack Bastide
            OK here's The Deal

            In Internet Marketing terms MLM is a Multi-Tiered Affiliate
            Program with a Continuity program.

            Success in MLM is just like anything else .. you have to take
            action

            The GREAT thing about MLM is you get personal one on one
            coaching for the life of your business ... with NOTHING held
            back ... FOR FREE!

            That just doesn't Happen In Internet Marketing

            I happen to be with a company that has been mentioned
            here, Send Out Cards, and have been doing it for 7 years

            Willie Crawford and I work together in Send Out Cards

            Jack
            Signature

            If you can drive Biz Op Phone Calls .... I'm Buying

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            • Profile picture of the author ronc0011
              Wow there some really interesting comments on this thread and many that obviously had very little thought invested in them.

              It has already been alluded to but just for the sake of clarification I would like to pose this question. What is the real difference, if any, between an affiliate program that pays you once for each sale and an affiliate program that pays you on a multi tiered plan?

              In each case you are selling someone else's product. The only difference I can see is the compensation model.

              90% of all businesses do not sell their own product. Does your grocery store sell its own products? Does Home Depot sell their own products? Most businesses sell someone else's products.


              Frankly it's kind of weird how people have this Boogey Man mentality when they hear the words MLM.

              The idea that those who get in last lose their money is just silly. I work with a company who sells hosting services. You think just because I didn't get in on the ground floor ten years ago I'm gonna lose my money? I'm pretty sure the hosting industry is safe for a few more years.

              So let's ask this question: If I just sell the hosting and don't tell anyone about the income opportunity, am I safe? Does just having the income opportunity available automatically make this an evil scam?
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            • Profile picture of the author Brad Pollina
              Originally Posted by Jack Bastide View Post

              OK here's The Deal

              In Internet Marketing terms MLM is a Multi-Tiered Affiliate
              Program with a Continuity program.

              Success in MLM is just like anything else .. you have to take
              action

              The GREAT thing about MLM is you get personal one on one
              coaching for the life of your business ... with NOTHING held
              back ... FOR FREE!

              That just doesn't Happen In Internet Marketing

              I happen to be with a company that has been mentioned
              here, Send Out Cards, and have been doing it for 7 years

              Willie Crawford and I work together in Send Out Cards

              Jack
              I happen to work with Jack and Willie as well and can vouche for the both of them. Nice to see you here, Jack!
              Signature
              "Be patient with me....God isn't finished with me yet!"
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          • Profile picture of the author octavyo
            MLM is a business and just like in any kind of business there are scams but that doesn`t mean that all the MLM businesses are scams. If you are interested in joining a MLM company I recommend you to check GDI (Global Domains International). They have been around for some years and from what I have seen they always pay on time and are very reliable.
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          • Profile picture of the author cashxpert
            No it is not, but the way earnings are shared is not straight forward as with
            an affiliate program. I am involved with an mlm program that is high quality
            doesnt pay that much per signup but it is easy to promote and it converts well.
            Due to the quality and the nature of the program subscribers will stay with you
            forever and you will keep making money.

            Most affiliate programs will pay you more per subscriber but if the product is poor
            quality and the price too high you will never make money.
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            Free Traffic On Demand.
            http://www.rotatortrafic.com

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      • Profile picture of the author OnlineMasterMind
        Originally Posted by Tsnyder View Post

        So... based on your "informative" post my guess is you
        feel kinda sorry for those pursuing an income as affiliate
        marketers for someone else's products...

        It apparently hasn't occurred to you, or many others, that
        the VAST MAJORITY of people who would like to earn additional
        income outside their normal job aren't actually capable of
        accomplishing all the tasks required to actually start and run
        a conventional business of any kind... regardless of the business
        model.

        MLM companies provide people with a turn key business opportunity.
        They do own a business... they own a marketing business... they are
        not employees of the company. Many people, in fact, choose to market
        the products of several different MLM companies... much like IM affiliates.

        As for all the terrible things that might happen... of course they might.
        That's why people should take the time to investigate before making
        commitments. Even after investigating and satisfying oneself that the
        company they've chosen has the right ingredients for success it could
        still go broke.

        That's business... happens every day. People who don't understand
        that should remain at their regular jobs and hope for the security promised
        them by their employers... who would never change their pay or benefit
        plans or go out of business... LOL

        Tsnyder
        MLM is definitely not a scam.

        People can and do make good money... however, your post is misguided when you say that people own a marketing business.

        You don't control the prices.
        You can be terminated at any time for any reason.
        You don't control the product.
        You don't control the company's branding and marketing message.
        You are not building any kind of asset that you control and can sell. (Yes, some people talk about selling a downline but in the real world this rarely happens and is not a common practice like selling a business)

        How can you honestly and ethically tell someone that they will "own their own home based business"?

        If you were to argue that affiliate marketing is not owning a business either then I would have to agree with you. But the fact is that if you have an affiliate site that does consistent income every month, that has value and can be sold like a business.

        Also, affiliate marketing is much easier to generate significant and consistent income... Once you do the initial work, it can be very passive.

        In MLM, you are constantly trading time for money. Yes, residual income is what is promoted but anyone who is doing big numbers is likely working a lot of hours on a weekly basis.

        I do agree with you however, that MLM is something that the masses can plug into unlike internet marketing which can be more challenging to an average person with no experience.
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        • Profile picture of the author Tsnyder
          Originally Posted by OnlineMasterMind View Post

          MLM is definitely not a scam.

          People can and do make good money... however, your post is misguided when you say that people own a marketing business.

          You don't control the prices.
          You can be terminated at any time for any reason.
          You don't control the product.
          You don't control the company's branding and marketing message.
          You are not building any kind of asset that you control and can sell. (Yes, some people talk about selling a downline but in the real world this rarely happens and is not a common practice like selling a business)

          How can you honestly and ethically tell someone that they will "own their own home based business"?

          If you were to argue that affiliate marketing is not owning a business either then I would have to agree with you. But the fact is that if you have an affiliate site that does consistent income every month, that has value and can be sold like a business.

          Also, affiliate marketing is much easier to generate significant and consistent income... Once you do the initial work, it can be very passive.

          In MLM, you are constantly trading time for money. Yes, residual income is what is promoted but anyone who is doing big numbers is likely working a lot of hours on a weekly basis.

          I do agree with you however, that MLM is something that the masses can plug into unlike internet marketing which can be more challenging to an average person with no experience.
          Well... where do I begin...

          Selling down-lines happens far more often than you might imagine. I've done it, myself.

          Most of what you wrote really isn't based on knowledge coming from
          the reality I've known for many years. For example, I know a whole bunch
          of people who earn what most would consider big numbers who aren't working
          lots of hours weekly... some not at all. I receive a residual check from a company
          I haven't actively participated in since 1993.

          I have no idea how you would measure your assertion that developing
          a significant and consistent income through affiliate marketing is easier.
          Perhaps it's easier for you but I think we see evidence on this forum daily
          that it's not the least bit easy for the vast majority of the members of
          this forum.

          As far as my honesty and ethics go in telling people they own their
          own business I would refer you to many of my friends who own franchises,
          generally considered to be one of the most successful business models
          in America....

          None of them control the prices... none of them control the products they
          sell... all of them can be terminated and none of them control the branding or
          marketing messages. And, once again, your assertion that MLMers can't develop
          a salable asset is simply incorrect.

          So... given your list of criteria I will inform my poor, deluded franchise
          owning friends that they do not own a real business. I will refer them to
          you for further clarification.

          Tsnyder
          Signature
          If you knew what I know you'd be doing what I do...
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          • Profile picture of the author OnlineMasterMind
            Originally Posted by Tsnyder View Post

            Well... where do I begin...

            Selling down-lines happens far more often than you might imagine. I've done it, myself.

            Most of what you wrote really isn't based on knowledge coming from
            the reality I've known for many years. For example, I know a whole bunch
            of people who earn what most would consider big numbers who aren't working
            lots of hours weekly... some not at all. I receive a residual check from a company
            I haven't actively participated in since 1993.

            I have no idea how you would measure your assertion that developing
            a significant and consistent income through affiliate marketing is easier.
            Perhaps it's easier for you but I think we see evidence on this forum daily
            that it's not the least bit easy for the vast majority of the members of
            this forum.

            As far as my honesty and ethics go in telling people they own their
            own business I would refer you to many of my friends who own franchises,
            generally considered to be one of the most successful business models
            in America....

            None of them control the prices... none of them control the products they
            sell... all of them can be terminated and none of them control the branding or
            marketing messages. And, once again, your assertion that MLMers can't develop
            a salable asset is simply incorrect.

            So... given your list of criteria I will inform my poor, deluded franchise
            owning friends that they do not own a real business. I will refer them to
            you for further clarification.

            Tsnyder
            That was actually a very good response. I can respect that.

            But I strongly disagree with you... on pretty much everything lol

            What assertion do I go by in stating that affiliate marketing is easier??

            Uh... common sense. Going from 0 to $10,000 a month in MLM is hard freakin work. If you disagree with that... well, then I guess we will just have to disagree.

            I think making 10k/mo with aff marketing is so much easier it's not even funny. I guess I just think that's common sense if you've been fully exposed to both concepts.

            And you saying you received a check from work done in 93 doesn't mean a whole to me without knowing the amount. I've heard speakers say stuff like that from the podium when attacking IM (IM has no residual blah blah) and then they come and confide in me that they are broke (not saying you are or implying anything like that) before asking for advice.

            To answer your question though... I'd say 10k a month is big numbers. Not really.. but for the purpose of this example... I'd say anyone earning 10k/mo is working a lot. I know lots of people in the industry (I spent many years in direct sales/MLM) many are friends... and I have yet to meet someone making that kind of money or more who isn't "on call" having to be available to close people or put out fires. I'm sure there are exceptions no doubt, but the reality is: that's the nature of MLM - the higher up you go, the more leadership is required... and usually that translates to time.

            I think you have a good point with the franchise model but in reality, that isn't a fair comparison to MLM. Yes, you can argue MLM has a proven system...etc etc... but the chances of having a system work without you - like a subway being able to hire employees just isn't a fair comparison.

            Anyways, I can see you are set in your ways and you like working for your MLM company. That's awesome, as I believe it's important to love what you do. Some people are just cut out for MLM... I sincerely wish you the best.
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            • Profile picture of the author Tsnyder
              Originally Posted by OnlineMasterMind View Post

              That was actually a very good response. I can respect that.
              Thank you.

              But I strongly disagree with you... on pretty much everything lol
              No problem... that's why it's called a discussion forum! LOL

              What assertion do I go by in stating that affiliate marketing is easier??

              Uh... common sense. Going from 0 to $10,000 a month in MLM is hard freakin work. If you disagree with that... well, then I guess we will just have to disagree.

              I think making 10k/mo with aff marketing is so much easier it's not even funny. I guess I just think that's common sense if you've been fully exposed to both concepts.
              OK... here's the crux of the argument. You base your assertions on
              what you believe is common sense and what you think.

              We're both professional marketing people. I would think we'd
              both know that marketing is science, not art. What you think or
              believe is common sense is irrelevant. It applies only to you.

              As I said... there is ample evidence on this forum every day that
              building a substantial income via affiliate marketing is far from easy.
              If it were we'd have a forum full of 6 figure earners. That doesn't
              seem to be the case.

              Anyways, I can see you are set in your ways and you like working for your MLM company. That's awesome, as I believe it's important to love what you do. Some people are just cut out for MLM... I sincerely wish you the best.
              Same to you. I only engage in these discussions for the academic
              entertainment I derive from them. I don't really need to convince anyone
              about MLM nor do I want to. I'm only looking to attract those who want
              what I have to offer. There are plenty of them around!

              Tsnyder
              Signature
              If you knew what I know you'd be doing what I do...
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      • Profile picture of the author jmasterson
        Originally Posted by Tsnyder View Post

        So... based on your "informative" post my guess is you
        feel kinda sorry for those pursuing an income as affiliate
        marketers for someone else's products...
        No because most full-time affiliates are smart enough to diversify their affiliate promotions. They promote MANY products from MANY advertisers using VARIOUS promotion methods. Therefore their risk is minimized.

        Most affiliates also understand that this risk exists. Whereas most MLMer's put all their eggs into 1 company's basket. And it's usually against the terms of the MLM company to join more than 1 company! So it's not like they could diversify even if they wanted to! If the company goes under for reasons beyond their control, bye bye income. Time to find the next miracle juice or super vitamin to promote and hope your team still trusts you enough to join you in the next "opportunity."

        Originally Posted by Tsnyder View Post

        It apparently hasn't occurred to you, or many others, that
        the VAST MAJORITY of people who would like to earn additional
        income outside their normal job aren't actually capable of
        accomplishing all the tasks required to actually start and run
        a conventional business of any kind... regardless of the business
        model.
        Yikes! I wouldn't want to associate myself with an enormous group of "non-capable" people.

        So they aren't capable of reading business books? Do they have a learning disability? Or are they just lazy?

        Originally Posted by Tsnyder View Post

        MLM companies provide people with a turn key business opportunity.
        They do own a business... they own a marketing business... they are
        not employees of the company. Many people, in fact, choose to market
        the products of several different MLM companies... much like IM affiliates.
        A "turn-key business opportunity." That's what makes me cringe.

        Originally Posted by Tsnyder View Post

        That's business... happens every day. People who don't understand
        that should remain at their regular jobs and hope for the security promised
        them by their employers... who would never change their pay or benefit
        plans or go out of business... LOL
        I'm not suggesting anyone remain an employee. Heck, I'd rather do MLM than be an employee. But just look at your options when you're looking to build a business.

        Again, my whole point is that MLM is NOT a "scam" but it's not the BEST way to make a LOT of money. That's all I'm saying here.
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        • Profile picture of the author Tsnyder
          Originally Posted by jmasterson View Post

          Again, my whole point is that MLM is NOT a "scam" but it's not the BEST way to make a LOT of money. That's all I'm saying here.
          A serious and knowledgeable business person would agree
          with me that there is no such thing as a BEST way to make
          a LOT of money.

          I personally know people in MLM who earn incomes that would
          leave the average Warrior Forum member drooling. I also know
          people in IM who earn incomes that would leave the average
          MLMer drooling.

          Which is the BEST way to earn all that money?

          I know the answer... do you?

          Tsnyder
          Signature
          If you knew what I know you'd be doing what I do...
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          • Profile picture of the author OnlineMasterMind
            Originally Posted by Tsnyder View Post

            A serious and knowledgeable business person would agree
            with me that there is no such thing as a BEST way to make
            a LOT of money.
            Actually, I think a serious and knowledgeable business person would know the best way to make a lot of money is business ownership.

            Just ask Kody Bateman

            # of networker billionaires vs. billionaire business owners...?
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            • Profile picture of the author Tsnyder
              Originally Posted by OnlineMasterMind View Post

              Actually, I think a serious and knowledgeable business person would know the best way to make a lot of money is business ownership.

              Just ask Kody Bateman

              # of networker billionaires vs. billionaire business owners...?
              Seriously... your definition of a LOT of MONEY is billionaire?

              I applaud you for thinking big but my guess is that
              the vast majority of the market sets the bar somewhat
              lower... lol. But, let us know when you crack that first billion!

              The real answer is: The best way to make a LOT of
              MONEY is whatever way you're passionate about and
              willing to work your ass off for.

              Tsnyder
              Signature
              If you knew what I know you'd be doing what I do...
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              • Profile picture of the author OnlineMasterMind
                Originally Posted by Tsnyder View Post

                Seriously... your definition of a LOT of MONEY is billionaire?

                I applaud you for thinking big but my guess is that
                the vast majority of the market sets the bar somewhat
                lower... lol. But, let us know when you crack that first billion!

                The real answer is: The best way to make a LOT of
                MONEY is whatever way you're passionate about and
                willing to work your ass off for.

                Tsnyder
                Nah, sorry dude... you're shooting yourself in the foot here.

                Passion is only one element when you're talking about the BEST way to make A LOT of money.

                You can be passionate about doing construction work... and work your ass off... but it's clearly not the best way to make money.

                More millionaires have been created via owning their own business than any other way...

                There's really no comparison.
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                • Profile picture of the author Tsnyder
                  Originally Posted by OnlineMasterMind View Post

                  Nah, sorry dude... you're shooting yourself in the foot here.

                  Passion is only one element when you're talking about the BEST way to make A LOT of money.

                  You can be passionate about doing construction work... and work your ass off... but it's clearly not the best way to make money.

                  More millionaires have been created via owning their own business than any other way...

                  There's really no comparison.
                  I think you're being deliberately obtuse. Owning a business is
                  a vehicle for making money... not a way. Many people who own
                  businesses lose their shirts. That, and I never said people who
                  want to make a lot of money should do anything other than own
                  a business... you assumed that.

                  The point... my only point... and the only correct answer... is
                  that there is no single way to make a lot of money that is best
                  for everyone. That being a universal and constant truth the only
                  logical conclusion is there is no best way to make a lot of money.

                  My original response on the subject stands.

                  Tsnyder
                  Signature
                  If you knew what I know you'd be doing what I do...
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    • Profile picture of the author Jacob Hargreave
      Originally Posted by jmasterson View Post


      Fact is, they can change the compensation plan, discontinue products, set rules, or even close their doors... Then you're out of luck (or onto the next opportunity.)

      I've experienced MLM and have lots of friends who still chase the network marketing "dream..." But I kinda feel sorry for them.
      I thank Jmasterson for this particular nugget. In fact I applaud it, for not only has this warrior explained the pit falls of an MLM but they have also indirectly summed up the average 9 to 5 job.

      Now with a bit of humor I ask you if you deem an multi level marketing company a scam of sorts, what do you consider everyday employment?

      I have been involved in various MLM, some successful and others failures... experience of which are best suited for you come with time. The more you fall the more holes in the ground you start to notice.

      My best advice is to follow the directions of your fellow warriors here on this forum. Some have decades of experience that will save you years of time, thousands of dollars, and a life time ignorance.
      Signature

      Jacob Hargreave at your service...

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      • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
        Banned
        Originally Posted by Jacob Hargreave View Post

        My best advice is to follow the directions of your fellow warriors here on this forum.
        Good advice.

        Bearing in mind, of course, that just like backlinks, there are "do-follow Warriors" and "no-follow Warriors".
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        • Profile picture of the author Janice Sperry
          Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

          Good advice.

          Bearing in mind, of course, that just like backlinks, there are "do-follow Warriors" and "no-follow Warriors".
          This is the best post of the month....
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  • Profile picture of the author jay walters
    I think the best question would be, which MLM are you looking into imagoodguy?
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  • Profile picture of the author anthony2
    Originally Posted by imagoodguy View Post

    Hello warriors i have a question for you, is MLM a scam? I'm asking this because there is a bunch of people that are saying MLM is a rip off/ scam but on the other half there are a lot of people saying that MLM is not a scam. well can you guys answer this question for me - Is MLM a scam or not?

    There are MLM companies out there that are scams.
    But that doesn't mean the whole industry is that way.

    Someone above mentioned car salesmen.
    Are all car salesmen crooks? No, Of Course not.

    But there crooks out there you have to be wary about.
    It the same thing in MLM.

    There legit, stable, reliable MLM companies out there,
    you just have to do your research before joining a company.
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  • Profile picture of the author Tsnyder
    Michael...

    I don't doubt, and have never implied to my recollection, that
    any of the stories told by those who hold negative views didn't
    happen.

    I'm quite certain they did. I also suspect... just a tiny bit... that
    they may be embellishing those stories just a tad... lol.

    In any case, my point isn't that their experiences should be
    discounted. My point is that their experience was unnecessary.
    They could have enjoyed a better experience which may have
    led them to a different conclusion.

    Nobody needs to, or ever should, lose money with an MLM business,
    let alone a pile of it. Nobody should ever lose the respect of friends
    and family because they were involved in an MLM business. They
    should have been taught better.

    Without going to great lengths here I guess my real point is twofold...

    1. Yes, of course, there are charlatans in MLM. There are charlatans
    in every business.

    2. There are also many competent professionals who know what
    they're doing, how this business truly operates at its best, and know
    how to teach those principles.

    As for your assertion that MLM, itself, has a problem... I'm not
    sure I know what you mean. If you mean that there are certain
    inherent weaknesses in the model then, of course... thank you
    Mr. Obvious! LOL... There are inherent weaknesses in pretty much
    every business model.

    But... there are also inherent strengths in every model, MLM included.
    The choice every prospective business person has to make is whether
    the strengths they see outweigh the weaknesses.

    The more discerning business minds will often note that a business
    model's main weaknesses are often also its main strengths, depending
    on how one approaches them.

    I'd love to hear what you perceive to be the main weaknesses...

    Tsnyder
    Signature
    If you knew what I know you'd be doing what I do...
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  • Profile picture of the author astrellalopez
    Banned
    [DELETED]
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    • Profile picture of the author rperales
      Personally...

      ..for a person that claim so much experience but can't seem to get my post.

      "Maybe... just maybe... I have more than three decades
      of experience in this business and know what I'm talking about.

      The question "what do I have to do to break even?" is a question that
      would likely be asked by someone with little knowledge or experience with
      real business matters.

      I can think of a whole list of questions... the answers to which would
      be far more important than that one."

      An Network is a wholesaler we buy products at wholesale and get commissions and have
      the opportunity to retail them..the commissions comes eliminating the brokers such as
      National Distributors, Local, ones, National wholesaler and local ones..the savings becomes
      commissions to distributors..of course a lot of them go a different way..

      it is our responsibility to promote those products all those questions are pointless..

      The question How to break even is a question we ask ourselves..don't we ask questions
      to ourselves all the time?..

      And you claim 3 decades huh?

      I have forty years myself and have my own network companies offline with a new and
      easy way for everybody to earn money..Why don't you ask yourself "How can I mulitply
      sales for my downline if you think about your downline..

      I designed such plan when I was 19 years old because most if not all comp. plan are
      not designed to make money for everybody..most people quit which they wouldn't if
      they break even to start..

      One way to multiply sales is to...yeah I'm going to tell..in my book you are not worth it!

      I know you for at least 5 maybe more years and you are still the same..impossible to
      succeed remaining the same..you went to BetterNetworker didn't last long because
      they didn't accept you..They regonized a ...when they see one!

      I just came in here because I spend many years here on my way out of this life..

      __Rey

      P.S. By the way..do you have your own company?
      Signature

      Reynaldo Perales

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      • Profile picture of the author Tsnyder
        Originally Posted by rperales View Post

        Personally...

        ..for a person that claim so much experience but can't seem to get my post.

        "Maybe... just maybe... I have more than three decades
        of experience in this business and know what I'm talking about.

        The question "what do I have to do to break even?" is a question that
        would likely be asked by someone with little knowledge or experience with
        real business matters.

        I can think of a whole list of questions... the answers to which would
        be far more important than that one."

        An Network is a wholesaler we buy products at wholesale and get commissions and have
        the opportunity to retail them..the commissions comes eliminating the brokers such as
        National Distributors, Local, ones, National wholesaler and local ones..the savings becomes
        commissions to distributors..of course a lot of them go a different way..

        it is our responsibility to promote those products all those questions are pointless..

        The question How to break even is a question we ask ourselves..don't we ask questions
        to ourselves all the time?..

        And you claim 3 decades huh?

        I have forty years myself and have my own network companies offline with a new and
        easy way for everybody to earn money..Why don't you ask yourself "How can I mulitply
        sales for my downline if you think about your downline..

        I designed such plan when I was 19 years old because most if not all comp. plan are
        not designed to make money for everybody..most people quit which they wouldn't if
        they break even to start..

        One way to multiply sales is to...yeah I'm going to tell..in my book you are not worth it!

        I know you for at least 5 maybe more years and you are still the same..impossible to
        succeed remaining the same..you went to BetterNetworker didn't last long because
        they didn't accept you..They regonized a ...when they see one!

        I just came in here because I spend many years here on my way out of this life..

        __Rey

        P.S. By the way..do you have your own company?
        I got your post 100%. You just happen to be wrong.

        If you don't think any of the questions I listed have any value
        I can only assume you aren't looking for serious business people,
        you're looking for mindless lemmings who can't see beyond breaking
        even on their autoship.

        We can't have a serious conversation.

        Tsnyder
        Signature
        If you knew what I know you'd be doing what I do...
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  • Profile picture of the author bluewaterk
    This short video has a lot of truth about MLM in it and at least it will make you laugh:

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  • Profile picture of the author JamesMcCabe
    MLM or network marketing companies are a great marketing model if done correctly. Are some scams? Yes, but you can't lump them all into that category.
    Working MLM or network marketing is far less about the product than it is the "networking" aspect. You have to build trust and people have to "want" to work with you. Banging people over the head to buy into a product or service doesn't work. Just like in Aff. or internet marketing, you have to offer good content. And in this case it's helping others to build their business and be successful. With that approach they will want to join you and work with you.
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    • Profile picture of the author myob
      Another good one is Amsoil. I started with it back in the 70's while going through college and grad school just to earn a few bucks. It is still going strong, even though I lost interest and don't directly promote it anymore.
      Signature
      “If I have seen further than others, it is by standing upon the shoulders of giants.” – Isaac Newton
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  • Profile picture of the author clever7
    MLM is a very dangerous business system and works only with very well established companies, like Avon for example.

    It's based on recruiting people to become MLM representatives like you, and making commissions as more and more people promote and sell a certain company's products.

    If this is a very well-organized system, you can make a lot of money with it. Otherwise, who knows when you are going to see your commissions?... Who knows if you'll ever manage to convince other people to follow your example?

    It's not a simple business model. I believe you had better avoid getting involved with it if you don't have any special reason to do so.

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  • Profile picture of the author Caper224
    Its just like internet marketing, "some yes, some no." There are those that have huge upfront setup fees and monthly fees an product fees and basically are set up to scam the mlmer an thats how they make they're money. Then there are others that require no fees or a minimal one but require 20 years to become truly success with. I tried it out, and the mlm company I tried was legit but it was too long of a process my upline had been doing it ten years had a pretty decent sized downline an still hadn't broke six figures however he did successfully go full time its all in your goals. I personally think it too much for too little but to each is own.
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  • Profile picture of the author bonk12
    It's not a scam but just like anything else made to look easy in life, it is much more difficult than people will admit when trying to sell others on the idea.

    Hope that helps.

    Cheers,

    Steven Patterson
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    Steven Patterson - Affiliate Marketer & Entrepreneur

    Look out for "The Power of In-Store Marketing" in the WSO section COMING SOON!!

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  • TSnyder, Numbers 11, 12, and 13 of your list of
    questions personify the reason I've never been
    able to sponsor a downline in MLM.

    I can't get past the mindset of "How can I
    be enthusiastic about something I haven't
    succeeded with yet?"

    How would one go about sponsoring somebody
    when they haven't made their first dollar
    from it yet?

    Michael
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    • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Michael Worthington View Post

      How would one go about sponsoring somebody when they haven't made their first dollar from it yet?
      Just a suggestion, Michael, but why not make some money first by retailing the company's products, before trying to sponsor people? Money can be earned only when products are sold - nobody gets paid purely for sponsoring (not without the company breaking the law, anyway).

      If the company's products can't be retailed, then it's not much of a business opportunity anyway (and in most countries it will even have some legal questions to answer!).

      You have to have products that the public wants to buy regularly, at that price and from that source, without taking part in the business opportunity - otherwise it won't last indefinitely as a business (and regulators and courts won't like it, either).

      MLM is also a "duplication business", and if you don't retail the company's products, your downline probably won't retail the company's products either, and then everyone's going to get into trouble eventually ...
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    • Profile picture of the author Tsnyder
      Originally Posted by Michael Worthington View Post

      TSnyder, Numbers 11, 12, and 13 of your list of
      questions personify the reason I've never been
      able to sponsor a downline in MLM.

      I can't get past the mindset of "How can I
      be enthusiastic about something I haven't
      succeeded with yet?"

      How would one go about sponsoring somebody
      when they haven't made their first dollar
      from it yet?

      Michael
      When I first began my MLM career in 1971 I was a dumb young kid
      in the United States Air Force. I was stationed at Norton Air Force
      Base in San Bernardino, California.

      A Sargeant in my work section sponsored me. I didn't know squat
      about sponsoring anyone else... didn't even have a clue who that might
      be... lol.

      What I did have was a belief that the products I had been shown
      were high quality and, in some cases, unique so I went about developing
      a retail customer base. I know... those words give lots of "modern day"
      mlmers hives... lol.

      What I learned along the way was something we used to call retailing
      to recruit. Someone would express to me that they loved the products
      and would refer me to a friend. That was my cue to ask if they'd have
      an interest in taking the order and delivering the product themselves
      in exchange for earning the profit on the sale. Many took me up on the
      offer.

      Anyway... that was then and that's how I did it.

      Today, I would advise you, as a newbie who hadn't yet earned any
      money to start using the product. We have a unique product that gets
      the attention of everyone who receives it. Many ask me where I got
      it and how they can get it, too. Seriously... they do... lol.

      I would also advise you to rely heavily on me in the beginning.

      I have earned a few dollars so I can be your credibility starting
      out. I would never advise anyone to lie to someone in order to get
      an appointment or convince them to join the business. I would advise
      them to tell a prospect up front that they've just begun a new business
      and would like to introduce them to the product for the purpose
      of determining if they had an interest or might know someone they
      could refer.

      I'm all about the product. I show prospects what I have and in
      the course of that presentation I mention that there is a way to
      offset the cost or even build a side income if they have an interest
      in that sort of thing. If they say no, we move on... we don't twist
      arms or try to convince anyone to do anything.

      In any case... I don't know if this answers your question directly
      but my business is built primarily with people who have no prior
      experience. I frankly don't like sponsoring people with prior MLM
      experience. Most of them have terrible habits... lol.

      Tsnyder
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      If you knew what I know you'd be doing what I do...
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  • Profile picture of the author alcymart
    Most MLM's start up with good intentions, and I been in the MLM industry for over 20 years and No, most are not scams. In fact , I am earning a very good living now with 48 MLM companies.

    In the past, I did get a bad dose of gifting MLM's which caught me off guard, but I bulldozed through that part pretty quickly and learned my way up over the years therafter.

    In short, if you think its a scam, then you're right... n'est ce pas?

    Bernard
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  • Profile picture of the author webapex
    MLM was more justifiable in the pre-internet days when products needed local reps, it does cut down the sometimes overwhelming process of learning the bunch of skills the typical IMer has to learn.

    The Pen and Teller slant on MLM in their R rated B...S... program looks at the small margins the typical home party operator ha to manage.

    YouTube - Penn and Teller Bullshit S08E05 Easy Money Part (1/2)

    YouTube - Penn and Teller: Bullshit! 'Easy Money' - Unlimited incomes and potential

    YouTube - Penn and Teller: Bullshit! 'Easy Money' - Recruitment in MLM
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  • Profile picture of the author SteveBlackrock
    MLM, if you are at a reliable company, is not a scam!

    A friend of mine is doing well with financial MLM, he rapes in more than 140.000$ every month. There is none of his investments included and he has banked some millions from the past years.

    The problem with MLM is, that it relies completetly on you.

    *How creative is your marketing?
    *How much people do you know?
    *Can you motivate people?
    *Can you follow a selfdesigned plan?
    etc etc

    Its a cool thing but there is no generall formula!
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    • Profile picture of the author myob
      Originally Posted by SteveBlackrock View Post

      ... A friend of mine is doing well with financial MLM, he rapes in more than 140.000$ every month. ...
      That's exactly how most of MLM works.
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  • Profile picture of the author webapex
    MLM was more justifiable in the pre-internet days when products needed local reps, though it does reduce the learning curve, compared to the typical solo IMer who has to learn a bunch of different skills.

    The Pen and Teller slant on MLM in their R rated B...S... program looks at the small margins the typical home party operator ha to manage.



    Signature

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  • Profile picture of the author corsleymaxwell
    MLM in its original nature is not really a scam and it is not unless you allow it. The tendency that it becomes as such is because of the strategies / systems that was initiated by networkers - this is what makes it appears like a scam.
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  • Profile picture of the author marlon
    Hi,

    Rod Cook has published mlmwatchdog.com for years.

    He exposes rip off/bad mlm companies and highlights
    good ones.

    He reviews legal actions against mlm companies.

    All the insders know about the site.

    If you REALLY want to be well-informed about the good, bad
    and ugly of mlm companies, this is THE site to read.

    Marlon
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  • Profile picture of the author jmasterson
    This is a pretty good read:
    The Simple Picture That Can Make You A Millionaire. | Fastlane Entrepreneurs

    See, "Commandment of Control" ...MJ brings up a good point. If you're in an MLM you simply don't have much control. That's my main "beef" with MLM.

    Not sure how you can argue that. Yes franchise owners don't have full control either, like you said. And I sure as hell would never want to own one. One of my friends owns 2 subway franchises and makes 6-figures but he works like 90 hours a week.

    To me, time = wealth. So to me, franchise owners aren't very "successful" in my book. But then again we all define success in different ways.
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    • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
      Banned
      If you're in an MLM you simply don't have much control. That's my main "beef" with MLM.
      It's true that you're dependent on the continued survival, management and flourishing of the company.

      But so are franchisees, of course. (And so are employees!).

      That's why you need to use a bit of judgement and ask questions exactly like the ones Tsnyder suggests above.

      And to make sure that you join a well-established one whose products are in genuine demand and plenty of whose income derives from genuine retail sales to genuine retail customers.

      Most of the people who "get into trouble" simply haven't done that. They've typically joined some sort of smackhead company in which the so-called "sales volume" comes only from qualifying purchases made by distributors of the company, not by retail customers at all. And that's extremely unwise. But really ... one doesn't exactly need to be Einstein to work this out, I think? :rolleyes: :p
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  • Profile picture of the author azhar99
    There is no universally correct answer to that question.
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
    Originally Posted by Gordon Gekko View Post

    I love how people call anything a scam if it requires work in order to get results.
    Who said that?

    Did you even read the thread?

    Or was this the next comment in your "Random Troll Phrases" file?

    But I'll play along for a bit.

    Here are some of the things I have personally experienced with MLM.

    The uplines spread the idea of the 10 hours of work per week = retirement in 2 to 5 years. They purposefully spread the LIE that you DON'T have to work hard.

    But that's only a Stage 1 lie, designed to get people to take the bait.

    Once they are on the hook, then they are told they have to work hard. very hard. In fact, if they aren't seeing any success it's ALL because they must not be working hard enough. No blame is EVER placed on the MLM itself.

    The recruit then forgoes sleep, family time, and may even miss work to attend "optional" seminars. But they are told it's okay to do these things now because they will soon be "free" if they stick with it.

    So, under the guise of delayed gratification, the person in the MLM loses everything - AND they worked hard, harder than they ever have in their entire lives. Yet they end up with nothing, or less than nothing in a lot of cases.

    It's not about the "hard word" you seem to be crowing about. It's about DOING the hard work and ending up with NOTHING for your effort. Get it?

    All the best,
    Michael

    p.s. This is only based on the MLMs I have been involved in. And YES, they were some of the biggest, most established ones out there. I'm sure SOC is the one exception. The one MLM that's perfect. The one MLM that "gets it". The one MLM that doesn't focus on recruitment. The one MLM that doesn't require a buy in. The one MLM that "everybody on the planet" could do and "everybody" would still make money. Am I being sarcastic? A little, but the truth is that I can't say for sure, because I have not been involved with that particular company.
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    • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Michael Oksa View Post

      I'm sure SOC is the one exception. The one MLM that's perfect. The one MLM that "gets it". The one MLM that doesn't focus on recruitment. The one MLM that doesn't require a buy in.
      There are loads that don't focus on recruitment, Michael.

      And in most of the world, the amount you can pay for the "buy-in" is (a) very small, and (b) strictly controlled by statutory law, and (c) refundable up to some reasonable time-period.

      Just saying.
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      • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
        Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

        There are loads that don't focus on recruitment, Michael.
        Maybe in theory, but IF a person is somehow rewarded for recruiting people, THEN it stands to reason that their focus will shift in that direction - REGARDLESS of whether or not it's the company line.

        And in most of the world, the amount you can pay for the "buy-in" is (a) very small, and (b) strictly controlled by statutory law, and (c) refundable up to some reasonable time-period.

        Just saying.
        Yes, I'm well aware. BUT...what counts as "very small". Even if there is a dollar limit, that doesn't say EXACTLY what they have to give you for your buy in.

        The law, when it works, can only go so far. The idea that the law somehow makes MLM okay doesn't make sense to me. I only mention that because you have mentioned laws about MLM a few times. It's a straw man argument anyway.

        A. Some say MLMs are scams.

        B. There are laws that regulate MLMs.

        C. Legal MLMs follow the law.

        D. Therefore, MLMs must be okay.

        At least that's the underlying message I'm reading into it. But that's only an assumption, which could be incorrect.

        All the best,
        Michael
        Signature

        "Ich bin en fuego!"
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        • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
          Banned
          Originally Posted by Michael Oksa View Post

          D. Therefore, MLMs must be okay.

          At least that's the underlying message I'm reading into it. But that's only an assumption, which could be incorrect.
          Yes, I think I take your point, here: it's a slightly "circular argument", isn't it? If something that was pretending to be an MLM gets wound up by court order (as some do, e.g. quite often for not having any genuine retail customers but being a bit of a "money-game"), then it can, by definition, be argued "well, that wasn't an MLM - it was a scam and the court said so, so you can't blame MLM for that". And the ones that are legitimate MLM's are therefore legal, equally by definition?

          This is a perfectly valid point, of course.

          The reality is that it sometimes takes a court (or at least a regulator) to determine whether something is a "legal MLM" or a "scam", and there'll be MLM lawyers arguing the case either way, sometimes with an uncertain outcome. And under these circumstances, it is difficult for the public to know what's a legitimate business and what's a scam. Which is both problematic and undesirable, of course.

          I suppose the only answer to that (and I acknowledge it's not a completely satisfactory one) is that anyone setting up a new business (e.g. an MLM distributorship) should be taking some legal advice and has the responsibility of deciding, for themselves, whether or not it's legal. Which is - in practice - actually asking a lot.

          Nevertheless, I have a friend who formerly had an active, UK-based MLM distributorship (Tsnyder will know to whom I'm referring, I think) whose downline - until she sold it a year or two ago for very nearly a 7-figure sum - included two Judges (one of whose wives worked the business very actively, sold the products and sponsored many distributors into the business). You can be pretty sure that that wasn't an illegal one! (And it wasn't Send Out Cards, either: there are many perfectly legal, ethical ones).

          For this and other reasons, to dismiss "all MLM" as "a scam" (which I know you're not doing) is clearly not right at all.

          Yes, some people have been scammed ... not by legitimate MLM companies but by other concerns masquerading as legitimate MLM companies.

          Originally Posted by O0o0O View Post

          It is only a scam when there is no product involved.
          As Michael wisely comments above, this is clearly wrong.

          It can have products involved and still be illegal - for example, if it pays out commissions derived from new recruits' joining-fees (rather than for the commissionable element of products they've purchased while joining), which is rightly illegal in most countries.

          Whether or not there are products involved is just one of many issues which determines the legality.
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        • Profile picture of the author Tsnyder
          Originally Posted by Michael Oksa View Post

          Maybe in theory, but IF a person is somehow rewarded for recruiting people, THEN it stands to reason that their focus will shift in that direction - REGARDLESS of whether or not it's the company line.
          All the best,
          Michael
          There isn't a single legitimate MLM in existence in the U.S. that
          directly rewards anyone for recruiting anybody. If you see such
          a thing happening it is an illegal pyramid scheme... I would urge
          you to immediately report it to the proper authorities... or tell me
          about it and I"ll report it.

          Tsnyder
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          • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
            Originally Posted by Tsnyder View Post

            There isn't a single legitimate MLM in existence in the U.S. that
            directly rewards anyone for recruiting anybody. If you see such
            a thing happening it is an illegal pyramid scheme... I would urge
            you to immediately report it to the proper authorities... or tell me
            about it and I"ll report it.

            Tsnyder
            Agreed.

            I used the word "somehow" as a synonym for "no matter how indirectly" (and almost added it as a paranthetical). I didn't mean direct rewards for recruitment. My point is that if you get rewarded for recruiting people - bigger bonuses, higher levels, qualification for higher levels, even status within the group - then it's easy for one's focus to shift to recruitment, even IF the company line is that product sales are more important.

            It's not the easiest thing to explain, but hopefully I'm making more sense now.

            All the best,
            Michael
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            "Ich bin en fuego!"
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
    Originally Posted by O0o0O View Post

    It is only a scam when there is no product involved.
    That's not true at all.

    The fact that an MLM has a product for sale doesn't automatically prevent it from being a scam.

    It's that kind of thinking that gets people into trouble.

    All the best,
    Michael
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    "Ich bin en fuego!"
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    • Profile picture of the author goindeep
      I actually studied MLM and Network marketing for an olde blog i used to run called "Online Cash Journey", if you can find it somewhere on the archived web, its a great read and very informative. I also wrote a pretty chunky reply to another warrior on here about 12 months ago on this same subject, so i wont rattle on..

      What i will say in short is this:

      I dont like MLM, I dont like Network marketing. Many people HAVE been scammed, this has been reported, documented and the information is availabe online.

      I also do not like nor do i understand the logic (if any) behind the marketing strategy of these types of systems. It is beyond me. But then again i am a little simple person

      However, in saying that... we can not bunch all MLM and Network marketing into a black and white category of Yes it is a scam or NO it is not a scam.

      Its like asking the question: Are Used Car Sales Men Liers?

      Well of course some are, but its not right to say that all are and lump them all into a big ball. Generalization i think is the key word here.

      Moving on, what i found when i did my research was that the 'key' contributing factor to the scams was always individuals. Even when the whole company was found to be a scamming people and stopped by the autorities it was usually the one or two people that had both founded and funded the scam and then let their sales philosophy trickle down the ranks. The differentiating factor is always the morale one. Thos that focused on the products, the marketing and the people where generally good and those that focused on recruitment where generally bad. Very general.

      Let me give a few examples of good & bad MLM companies/names.

      Avon = generally speaking good
      Tupperware = generally speaking good
      Cashgifting (no specifics mentioned) = bad
      The old 'Amway' = bad

      Thats enough from me on this topic.
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael Cole
    MLM is not a scam, although like anything else scammers will take the basic tenents of MLM and stretch them all out of proportion, make it seem like all you have to do is get involved and money and sign ups come pouring in.

    In many cases the people scammed by fake MLM Opportunities are really looking for a guaranteed win Lotto ticket, not a Home-Based business where you actually have to get off of your backside and do something.

    Mike
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    Not a 'cookie cutter' copy and paste system that's flooding the market, it's a pratical guide to creating your own unique lead generating system using free and low cost tools.
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  • Profile picture of the author InitialEffort
    I have never actively participated in an MLM because they get a bad rep for being scams. The funny thing is they always said the people at the top make all the money, while most of the people at the bottom fail. Well I finally met someone that is at the top of the pyramid and life is pretty good for that person. They have about 500 people underneath them in the financial planning industry.
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    • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
      Banned
      Originally Posted by InitialEffort View Post

      The funny thing is they always said the people at the top make all the money
      Whereas in any other sort of business venture, of course, it would be the other way around? Oh wait ... maybe that's not quite right ... :confused:
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  • Profile picture of the author RamCity
    MLM is not scam but we can see scammers exist in MLM business.
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    • Profile picture of the author myob
      Originally Posted by Tsnyder View Post

      ..I personally know people in MLM who earn incomes that would
      leave the average Warrior Forum member drooling. I also know
      people in IM who earn incomes that would leave the average
      MLMer drooling.

      Which is the BEST way to earn all that money?

      I know the answer... do you?

      Tsnyder
      Perhaps I can answer that one. I personally know people who use IM as a feeder to build their MLM businesses.
      Begin your drooling.
      Signature
      “If I have seen further than others, it is by standing upon the shoulders of giants.” – Isaac Newton
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
    I just wanted to add that I used to be a major supporter of MLM. I even made some strong pro-MLM arguments in the old WF.

    I was "in" all the way.

    What changed my thinking was a book that was recommended by my upline. However, that book was NOT on the "approved" list, so it''s amazing they were promoting that book.

    I'd also like to mention that when I use the term MLM, I am referring to those that have what's known as "motivational organizations" or a "system". These are the cult-like groups that run a tight ship. Oh, and the word 'cult' is quite fitting when you look into it.

    I still believe that MLM, as a business model, is inherently flawed. But, that's based on the types of MLM I dealt with. Could there be different flavors of MLM? Probably. But I also believe that there are some problems that are present in ALL MLMs.

    At the same time, I understand that nothing's perfect. So it comes down to what the problems are and how big they are.

    Just thought I should mention some of those things.

    All the best,
    Michael
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    "Ich bin en fuego!"
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  • Profile picture of the author emoneynow
    At least one MLM company I know of seems to scam their common members. Brainwashing them to join so they can pay membership fees and sell products that anyone can get at Wal-mart.
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    • Profile picture of the author teemoore
      This is a great way to learn about MLM systems,i have been thinking of getting involved and from all the post here, i guess i will give it a shot!!
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      • Profile picture of the author Tsnyder
        Originally Posted by teemoore View Post

        This is a great way to learn about MLM systems,i have been thinking of getting involved and from all the post here, i guess i will give it a shot!!
        Shoot me a PM if you'd like to learn the business from
        someone who knows what he's talking about and is a great
        teacher of the business.

        Tsnyder
        Signature
        If you knew what I know you'd be doing what I do...
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  • Profile picture of the author grannydude
    Originally Posted by imagoodguy View Post

    Hello warriors i have a question for you, is MLM a scam? I'm asking this because there is a bunch of people that are saying MLM is a rip off/ scam but on the other half there are a lot of people saying that MLM is not a scam. well can you guys answer this question for me - Is MLM a scam or not?
    I think just about all MLM's are scam. Of course, look at Bernie Madow; (I think that is right name), he did ok for a while. Years ago after I retired, I was looking into ways to make extra money. At the time, MLM was very popular and I got suckered in to some. All that happened was I lost a lot of money. What they do is pay you money from the money they get from other suckers. And, at that time, you ended up with a garage or attic or storage shed full of products you don't want and have no way of getting rid of them except throw them away. There are a few legitimate ones altho I can't think of any right now. My advice: stay away from them; even tho I haven't been successful at making money on the Internet, it is much better to try that way and not MLM. The ones that are running the MLM are very good at sales (some Internet gurus are also; maybe I am not good at sales,but .......) so don't get suckered into something you'll regret later.
    grannydude
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    • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
      Banned
      Originally Posted by grannydude View Post

      What they do is pay you money from the money they get from other suckers.
      Only if they want to go to jail.

      That's the one thing that would (and does) get a so-called "MLM company" wound up by regulators/courts very quickly indeed, almost anywhere in the world.

      I'm sorry to hear about your own bad experiences, of course, and nobody's disrespecting your right to your opinion, but ultimately, whether it fits in with your experiences or not, Grannydude, it's simply factual that there are also ethical, legal, longstanding, well-established, decent MLM companies that have Judges (among others) and their families taking part in them.

      With apologies, it seems to me that to compare the MLM business model, in general, with Madoff's lifelong criminality really does seem quite remarkably distorted. And I say that as someone with absolutely no connection with any MLM company at all.
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    • Profile picture of the author Tsnyder
      Originally Posted by grannydude View Post

      I think just about all MLM's are scam. Of course, look at Bernie Madow; (I think that is right name), he did ok for a while. Years ago after I retired, I was looking into ways to make extra money. At the time, MLM was very popular and I got suckered in to some. All that happened was I lost a lot of money. What they do is pay you money from the money they get from other suckers. And, at that time, you ended up with a garage or attic or storage shed full of products you don't want and have no way of getting rid of them except throw them away. There are a few legitimate ones altho I can't think of any right now. My advice: stay away from them; even tho I haven't been successful at making money on the Internet, it is much better to try that way and not MLM. The ones that are running the MLM are very good at sales (some Internet gurus are also; maybe I am not good at sales,but .......) so don't get suckered into something you'll regret later.
      grannydude
      You're delusional... I can only assume your post was intended as a joke.

      Tsnyder
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      If you knew what I know you'd be doing what I do...
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  • Profile picture of the author dsiomtw
    I just have to wonder if all of this back and forth would be the same, or even exist, if we simply replaced the words MLM and/or Network Marketing with "multi-tier affiliate program"?

    I mean, I'm not into MLM, but it just seems like MLM & Network Marketing need a new name as they get such a bad rap for no real reason. There are more scammy products on Clickbank then there are scammy MLMs!

    It's also kind of sad what it says about human nature and people in general don't you think? The fact that you just mention the word MLM or Network Marketing and most people just instantly think it's a bad thing, when in reality they have no freakin' clue about anything related to business.

    I chose a different path and have no interest in MLM, but every time I see someone say "MLM is a scam" I just sit back in amazement and feel sorry for the poor soul ...
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  • Profile picture of the author kakaboo
    The model of MLM is actually a very good one, but it's fundamentally flawed because of humans in the equation.

    If a MLM company focuses more on teaching their agents how to sell and push their products, it would be a very good model. But a lot of people want the quick bucks and change the model into a model of recruiting people where the people have to pay for a package (few hundreds to a thousand plus) first before they can join (which actually is not needed, they can actually start with no cash and just pay for the membership fee which is usually less than 50 bucks.

    Here is a great site by a professional MLM who have earned millions in this industry de-bunking all the myths surrounding and regarding MLM : http://www.firstclassmlm.com/

    Once you have gone through all of his videos you can usually tell a good MLM from a bad MLM, and which are the ones that are really worth your time to be joining.
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    • Profile picture of the author Tsnyder
      Originally Posted by kakaboo View Post

      The model of MLM is actually a very good one, but it's fundamentally flawed because of humans in the equation.

      If a MLM company focuses more on teaching their agents how to sell and push their products, it would be a very good model. But a lot of people want the quick bucks and change the model into a model of recruiting people where the people have to pay for a package (few hundreds to a thousand plus) first before they can join (which actually is not needed, they can actually start with no cash and just pay for the membership fee which is usually less than 50 bucks.

      Here is a great site by a professional MLM who have earned millions in this industry de-bunking all the myths surrounding and regarding MLM : http://www.firstclassmlm.com/

      Once you have gone through all of his videos you can usually tell a good MLM from a bad MLM, and which are the ones that are really worth your time to be joining.
      The flaw in your criticism is that there isn't a single legitimate MLM
      operating in the U.S. that requires any product purchase in order to
      become a sales rep.

      Every legitimate MLM offers various levels of product packages that a new
      rep may choose to purchase but it is not required. That said, I can give you
      many good reasons why a new rep might want to actually have some of the
      product for themselves.

      By the way, there are humans in the equation of every business so I guess
      that means that all businesses are fundamentally flawed.

      Tsnyder
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      If you knew what I know you'd be doing what I do...
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  • Profile picture of the author 1stscotth
    That is a good question, here is another question to your question. Are franchises scams?
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    • Profile picture of the author Joel
      MLM is not a business ... it is a distribution system. The discussion needs to focus on distribution systems, pro's & con's.
      Signature

      "Without data or facts, you are just another person with an opinion"

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      • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
        Banned
        Originally Posted by Joel View Post

        MLM is not a business ...
        Sheesh ... I thought I was pedantic. It's a business model.
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  • Profile picture of the author anthony2
    There a couple of MLM companies that are very reliable and legit

    1)Amway
    2)Numis Network
    3)Prepaid Legal
    4)monavie

    There many other companies but those are just a few.
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    • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
      Originally Posted by anthony2 View Post

      There a couple of MLM companies that are very reliable and legit

      1)Amway
      2)Numis Network
      3)Prepaid Legal
      4)monavie

      There many other companies but those are just a few.
      HA

      HA

      HA

      !!



      ~M~
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      "Ich bin en fuego!"
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      • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
        Banned
        I have to say I'm with you all the way on that post, Michael.
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      • Profile picture of the author anthony2
        Originally Posted by Michael Oksa View Post

        HA

        HA

        HA

        !!



        ~M~

        Are you trying to say these companies are not legit?
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        • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
          Banned
          Originally Posted by anthony2 View Post

          Are you trying to say these companies are not legit?
          I realise you're asking Michael and not me, but plenty of regulators and courts have had quite a bit to say about some of those companies, Anthony, on both sides of the Atlantic. Three of the four are no strangers to litigation (and I understand the fourth - in spite of being rather new - has already had some "potential securities violations questions" asked of it), and collectively they're certainly not exactly everyone's idea of "the finest the industry has to offer". And especially not when you compare them with a couple of the examples mentioned above.
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  • Profile picture of the author buffstical
    Banned
    No, It's a clean business that requires some additional process
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    • Profile picture of the author myob
      Originally Posted by buffstical View Post

      It's a clean business that requires some additional process...
      Like: "Stop convincing and start sorting";

      "Some will. Some won't. So what. Next..."
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  • Profile picture of the author Matt Woityra
    I think some mlm companies can have a bad rap but as far as reputable companies. It is one of the best business models out there. It's like a list of affiliates or just your list. Each person can be worth $1+ per month.
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