Article Writers Beware!Something Really Fishy Is Going On Lately

67 replies
I have been writing on this forum for two years now and never once had a problem getting paid. I usually got paid upfront, but every now and then I'll trust I will get paid when I turn in the work so I will not always ask for upfront payment.

Lately I have had three people in a row give me crazy excuses as to why they were not going to pay.

Case 1: I send the guy his work and ask for payment and 2 days go by. I send a few more e-mails and then the guy gets back to me three days later biting my head off and telling me that because I am bugging him he is not going to pay.

Case 2: Me and a client agree on a price and he sends me the keywords. After I complete and turn in his work the same thing happens. Two days go by without me hearing from him. When I do he tell me shortly that I never confirmed I was working on the articles and he hired someone else. We agreed beforehand and he sent me the keywords so what gives.

Case 3: Guy sends me a keyword list and I complete his articles. He takes forever to get back to me and when he does he says he does not need the articles anymore and for that reason he is refusing to pay.

Keep in mind that this all happened in the span of one week and it has never happened to me before. I have been doing this for two years with no problems. I am now going to have to demand payment upfront in order to protect myself or at least get half of it. Are any other writers having the same problem?
#article #bewaresomething #fishy #people #scam #teaching #writers #wso
  • Profile picture of the author Zabrina
    Hmm... can't say I have, but I'll knock on wood now.

    A little advice...

    Case 1: Send him a Paypal invoice. Wait two days, send a reminder (this is built into Paypal's invoice system) and a notice that all rights to the material are held by you until you receive payment. Wait two days, send another email and remind him that any use of the material is illegal until you receive payment. Wait two days, send another reminder.

    Keep a Google alert set up for phrases from what you sent him so you know he isn't using it without paying you. Pick a few phrases of five to ten words... for instance, I'd choose "and a notice that all rights to the material are held" if I were setting an alert for this post. Set up about two for each article, just to make sure he doesn't change a few phrases and get away with it. Here's another article by a writer I really respect about it.

    Normally, I would say to send a polite, "Hello, just checking to make sure you received the Paypal invoice I send you on [X/X/2011]. If there are any edit requests you would like me to make prior to payment, please let me know. Cheers!" type email. Since he's gotten rude, you can get scary-legal-sounding immediately.

    Case 2: Get back to him and let him know that the email he sent on X date (then quote the email with the date and time stamp) was a legal contract... you agreed to perform Y work on Z keywords in exchange for X payment. Again, remind him that use of your articles is illegal until you receive payment. And set up a Google alert again.

    Case 3: See above.

    When clients refuse to pay, don't throw up your hands and say, "Oh well." Be polite first, but aggressively proactive. You did work -- you deserve to get paid.

    It's people like those clients you've met that tell others to just steal content because writers don't care enough to go after the money. Make them respect you.

    And yes, get 50% payment for anything over (insert cost of a few articles... I like the round number of $100, but that's 4-5 articles for me) upfront, with 50% due within two days after you send the work. Anything under that amount is paid 100% upfront. Get a formal procedure in place sooner rather than later.

    Best of luck!
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  • Profile picture of the author laurie390
    Wow, that is strange, especially if you've never had problems before. Maybe there's a full moon:-)

    I'm sorry for the trouble you're having. I guess the "live and learn" aspect applies here. Requiring the money upfront will alleviate the problem, so it' good at least there's a pretty simple solution.
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    • Profile picture of the author AnniePot
      Originally Posted by laurie390 View Post

      Wow, that is strange, especially if you've never had problems before. Maybe there's a full moon:-)

      I'm sorry for the trouble you're having. I guess the "live and learn" aspect applies here. Requiring the money upfront will alleviate the problem, so it' good at least there's a pretty simple solution.
      Not necessarily. I always require payment in full, up-front. A year ago, I encountered a similar situation to Case #3 above. The guy ordered the articles, provided the keywords and paid up-front. Upon completion he apologized (nice of him), and said he had changed his mind about the project and no longer required the articles, so please would I refund his payment.

      I declined and explained that I had worked for him in good faith, thus I considered it reasonable that I should be paid.

      He immediately lodged a claim with his credit card company and they refunded his money. I actually lost out because there were transaction charges both times.
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      • Profile picture of the author IrisEyes
        This is ridiculuous.. there are just some people who are really like that.. Karma would soon be happening.. sniff!
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      • Profile picture of the author txconx
        Originally Posted by AnniePot View Post

        Not necessarily. I always require payment in full, up-front. A year ago, I encountered a similar situation to Case #3 above. The guy ordered the articles, provided the keywords and paid up-front. Upon completion he apologized (nice of him), and said he had changed his mind about the project and no longer required the articles, so please would I refund his payment.

        I declined and explained that I had worked for him in good faith, thus I considered it reasonable that I should be paid.

        He immediately lodged a claim with his credit card company and they refunded his money. I actually lost out because there were transaction charges both times.
        Never had this sort of thing happen, so I have to ask - does the CC company not have some process in place for you to dispute the chargeback from the credit card holder?
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        • Profile picture of the author AnniePot
          Originally Posted by txconx View Post

          Never had this sort of thing happen, so I have to ask - does the CC company not have some process in place for you to dispute the chargeback from the credit card holder?
          I did this, but was told by my (then) cc company that these decisions are made by the customer's company rather than them.
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  • Profile picture of the author btrash
    strange problems.. thats qutie surprising
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  • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
    Banned
    Originally Posted by pheonix44 View Post

    I am now going to have to demand payment upfront in order to protect myself
    Please excuse the observation that I'm slightly surprised you didn't do so years ago.

    When I was doing this, I never wrote articles, email series or sales copy for anyone without pre-payment, and this never once caused me a problem, right from the day I started.

    My terms were prepayment in full for all new clients (and in theory a minimum of 50% in advance for returning clients, but in practice they almost always paid in full in advance anyway).

    Anything you buy online, you have to pay in advance. Why should writing be any different?! :confused:

    It isn't a problem to state "prepayment in full" as your terms, when marketing a professional service. Clients will treat you professionally if you treat yourself and them professionally. People who have a problem with this are clients you don't want or need.
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      Maybe it's just one of those weeks.

      Maybe you are not communicating as well with new clients or have gotten sloppy about keeping in touch or clearly outlining your expectations.

      Maybe you are advertising in a place that's bringing low quality new customers.

      I send a few more e-mails
      That comment puzzled me - how many emails did you send and how often? When the work is done, payment is DUE - you shouldn't have to beg for it.

      Be CLEAR in your communications - payment is due within 24 hrs of delivery of the work and copyright passes to the client when payment is made.

      For the first two - I would immediately publish the work myself to establish copyright. For #3 - you can't cure stupid.

      kay
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      • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
        Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

        Maybe it's just one of those weeks.

        Maybe you are not communicating as well with new clients or have gotten sloppy about keeping in touch or clearly outlining your expectations.
        I would say this is about as much of an assumed expectation as you can get. "Pay me for doing the work you agreed to pay me for". I'm not quite sure what you think needs to be said.

        EDIT: Yeah, I understand a bit better now that you edited YOUR post.


        Maybe you are advertising in a place that's bringing low quality new customers.
        Maybe, but it's still the customer's fault, and not the place where the advertising is being done.


        That comment puzzled me - how many emails did you send and how often? When the work is done, payment is DUE - you shouldn't have to beg for it.
        "Shouldn't" being the key word. You're right, he SHOULDN'T have to beg for it...at all.

        If payment isn't rendered upon delievery (allowing for time zones, and other schedule differences), then keep bugging them.

        Guess what? It's not really even bugging them. In the time it took person #1 to send that e-mail, they could have easily made a payment at PayPal.
        Be CLEAR in your communications - payment is due within 24 hrs of delivery of the work and copyright passes to the client when payment is made.

        For the first two - I would immediately publish the work myself to establish copyright. For #3 - you can't cure stupid.

        kay
        I was thinking along the same lines. Now the OP has several articles that they have the rights to. Sell them as PLR packs and you could make many times more than what the original clients were going to pay you (depending on the niche).

        All the best,
        Michael
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  • Profile picture of the author Christian Little
    Never do creative work without being paid up front. You will avoid 99% of these types of problems.

    People are taking advantage of you and you are letting them do it. Implement a policy of payment up front from now on.

    I would only ever consider doing a payment-on-delivery when doing this kind of work with clients that you've worked with in the past as you have a relationship established.
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    • Profile picture of the author Joe Benjamin
      Originally Posted by Christian Little View Post

      Never do creative work without being paid up front. You will avoid 99% of these types of problems.

      People are taking advantage of you and you are letting them do it. Implement a policy of payment up front from now on.

      I would only ever consider doing a payment-on-delivery when doing this kind of work with clients that you've worked with in the past as you have a relationship established.
      I agree.

      I would never even do a "payment on delivery" with PAST
      clients because...

      you just don't HAVE to. If they were expecting to pay up-
      front the FIRST time, they won't hesitate to pay upfront
      any other time.

      OP, it is YOUR fault!

      YOU allowed this to happen to YOURSELF!

      It surprises me how many people are placing the blame on
      the client when it's REALLY the writers fault.

      I know it sucks to HEAR the truth, but it all falls on you. I
      never ONCE -- and I've written salescopy, emails, articles,
      the gauntlet accepted payment AFTER the fact.

      And, I've NEVER had a client QUESTION it. Why? Because
      they RESPECT me enough not to. If they did, I'd tell them
      to take a hike and go find someone who will take payment
      later.

      Also, I don't really BELIEVE you decided to do it just these
      few times. Perhaps you needed the money more than ever
      to pay a bill, debt, or just needed the extra cash and was
      willing to accept ANY terms to get it...

      if that were the case, then I don't care how much you need
      the money -- if you show you need it MORE you are easily
      taken advantage of...I don't care if you sell services or pro-
      duts...

      the mindset all works the same.

      Anyways. Yeah. Most people here will tell you to shoulder
      the blame on your client and, that's not fair to YOU because
      what do YOU learn from the experience if you're giving every
      one else outside yourself the responsibility?

      This is a much tougher post, but you needed to hear it...not
      get a pat on the back.
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      • Profile picture of the author 1byte
        Originally Posted by WhoIsBenjamin View Post

        I agree.

        OP, it is YOUR fault!

        YOU allowed this to happen to YOURSELF!

        It surprises me how many people are placing the blame on
        the client when it's REALLY the writers fault.

        I know it sucks to HEAR the truth, but it all falls on you. I
        never ONCE -- and I've written salescopy, emails, articles,
        the gauntlet accepted payment AFTER the fact.
        Wow! A little harsh there don't you think? Why not give the guy a little grace here, instead of just adding insult to injury? Not everybody is as perfect as you are. :rolleyes:

        Granted, it is the OP's fault that payment wasn't collected beforehand, but it is not his fault that his deadbeat customers didn't pay. These customers are not only dishonest and unethical, but they are criminals, because refusing to pay for honestly rendered services is theft.
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      • Profile picture of the author THK
        Originally Posted by WhoIsBenjamin View Post


        .....

        OP, it is YOUR fault!

        YOU allowed this to happen to YOURSELF!

        It surprises me how many people are placing the blame on
        the client when it's REALLY the writers fault.

        .......
        ........


        Anyways. Yeah. Most people here will tell you to shoulder
        the blame on your client and, that's not fair to YOU because
        what do YOU learn from the experience if you're giving every
        one else outside yourself the responsibility?

        .....
        So, basically you support fraud!

        When two parties involved in a transaction, both take some responsibility. Seller's responsibity is to complete the job based on the agreed terms. Buyer's responsibility is to pay when the job is completed.

        While you were painting a nice picture on "Taking Responsibility", it seems like you completely ignored that the buyer had any responsibility here. All he had to do was find an excuse not to pay! That is ridicolous.

        If you really believe that non payment is the seller's fault, tell us why we can't hold the buyer responsible who actually has control of the fund and agreed to pay upon completion?

        When a crime is commited, it is our "responsibility" to identify the correct person who has done the wrong. Blaming the victim and ask him to move on seems like the easy way out. Just cannot agree with it.

        Tanvir
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  • Profile picture of the author Marketing Cheetah
    Very strange cases. However, totally believable. Well if the amount wasn't really high in all three cases then I would suggest to take it as the price for a lesson you have learned and move on. This is business. Losses go along with profits. These type of losses are known as bad debts.
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  • Profile picture of the author GeorgR.
    PRE-PAY <--- or at the very least (if its a reputable Warrior) part of the pay in advance.

    Years ago i got burnt HARD and i am still wondering why i was so stupid at that time. (Talk about writing poker articles worth EU800 for weeks and then never saw one single penny).
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  • Profile picture of the author pheonix44
    For the first two - I would immediately publish the work myself to establish copyright. For #3 - you can't cure stupid.
    You're right about that.

    Also, I don't really BELIEVE you decided to do it just these
    few times. Perhaps you needed the money more than ever
    to pay a bill, debt, or just needed the extra cash and was
    willing to accept ANY terms to get it...
    I never need the money that bad, I make pretty good money providing services here and on other forums. I do however appreciate the honest words. Also, I have had quite a few customers pay me upon delivery. This is not just something I started doing.
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    • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
      I'm not going to add to the pile of "shoulda, woulda, couldas" building up here, so I'll just add this...

      That you had three deadbeats in the space of a week may not be a concidence. It might be my tinfoil hat picking up a wierd station, but if these guys are anything like spammers, when they find a mark, they share.

      You agreed to basically do work on spec, and the word started getting around. My guess is that you'll probably get a few more of these yahoos looking for the same deal. Try asking them how they heard about your service. If any of the referrals are your current deadbeats, you have your answer.

      Stay firm. Clients like that you can afford to lose and can't afford to keep...
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      • Profile picture of the author sanssecret
        Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe View Post

        I'm not going to add to the pile of "shoulda, woulda, couldas" building up here, so I'll just add this...

        That you had three deadbeats in the space of a week may not be a concidence. It might be my tinfoil hat picking up a wierd station, but if these guys are anything like spammers, when they find a mark, they share.

        You agreed to basically do work on spec, and the word started getting around. My guess is that you'll probably get a few more of these yahoos looking for the same deal. Try asking them how they heard about your service. If any of the referrals are your current deadbeats, you have your answer.

        Stay firm. Clients like that you can afford to lose and can't afford to keep...
        ^^^^This.
        John, we must both use the same millinery shop.
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        • Profile picture of the author Kay King
          Yeah, I understand a bit better now that you edited YOUR post.
          Except - I didn't edit it at all. Maybe better on the second reading?

          I noticed just now the OP started with

          I have been writing on this forum for two years
          and that could be part of the issue. We seem to be attracting an even greater number of - what do you call them - idiots - than a few years ago.
          j/k - these are probably nice people who have no clue what they are doing in the first place. Paying for a service you buy isn't an "option" after the work is done.

          I think my point was you have to be very clear about your expectations from the getgo with some buyers. It's not enough to have someone say "write me some articles" and give them a price. You almost have to connect the dots of "pay me at this point" and tell what the "or else" will be.:rolleyes:

          Hopefully - this was a fluke where several bad buyers showed up in the same week.
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          • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
            Banned
            Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

            Except - I didn't edit it at all. Maybe better on the second reading?
            This is true of all the literary classics: you can go back to them time and again, and always get something new out of them.
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            • Profile picture of the author zannix
              Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

              This is true of all the literary classics: you can go back to them time and again, and always get something new out of them.
              Off-topic: There's an actual saying that goes "Each time you re-read a good book, you don't see something that wasn't there before, you see something inside yourself that wasn't there before"
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              • Profile picture of the author Jeff Henshaw
                I'm going to digress now and I hope that I'm not getting off topic.

                I have a friend who is an architect and ran a practice in Ireland. This was many years ago, when Ireland was becoming elligable for European Economic Community (EEC) grants and as a result for a time became a European 'Tiger' economy.

                My friend was commissioned to construct a large barn, animal and various other enclosures, as a complex, by a land owning farmer. The commission was to design a 'brick and morter' build, not a timber or metal alloy structure. He and his colleagues spent several months on the project (which included several design changes requested by the client).

                After the final design was complete, the farmer failed to obtain the grant of money from the EEC that he was expecting. So he could not go ahead with the project.

                The bottom line here - the farmer could not understand why my friend was presenting him with an invoice for the design work done, when he (the farmer) did not have his barn complex built.

                The farmer had assumed that the entire process of : design, preparation of grant claim, submission to the EEC and the build construction was some how all of one single process. So when he had no built complex, everyone involved in the project should just melt away.

                Fortunately for all of the parties involved, the farmer was persuaded to see (eventually) that people had spent time and effort on a project commissioned by him, regardless of the fact that the project had not come to fruition. Everyone was paid, without resorting to litigation.

                Sorry the post is long, but it does show how important it is to understand fully what all parties want out of a deal and to agree and sign a written contract where practical.

                For small amounts of course, then a deposit and/or staged payments, an escrow agreement, or even payment in advance could be appropriate.

                Just my thoughts,

                Jeff.
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                • Profile picture of the author Doug Wakefield
                  The only way I do work without payment in advance is when I am either creating content for my own purposes OR I am creating PLR (which is for my own purposes I suppose :rolleyes

                  100% payment up front is required to work with me. This one fact weeds out most of the issues of nonpayment.

                  I think my point was you have to be very clear about your expectations from the getgo with some buyers. It's not enough to have someone say "write me some articles" and give them a price. You almost have to connect the dots of "pay me at this point" and tell what the "or else" will be.
                  Pay me up front, or else find another writer.

                  Just make sure that you communicate this with the buyer early. I have it on any sales material, like my website.

                  You may want to create a contract, or letter of agreement, to help assure the buyer that you are not going to run either.
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              • Profile picture of the author celente
                Originally Posted by zannix View Post

                Off-topic: There's an actual saying that goes "Each time you re-read a good book, you don't see something that wasn't there before, you see something inside yourself that wasn't there before"
                OMG dude, I have not heard that before. Thanks, awesome, just awesome.
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                • Profile picture of the author zannix
                  Hehe glad you like it
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                  • Profile picture of the author zannix
                    Get those people's emails and sign them up for beastiality porn. That ought to do it!
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                    • Profile picture of the author want2knowhow
                      Originally Posted by zannix View Post

                      Get those people's emails and sign them up for beastiality porn. That ought to do it!
                      OMG! !!! I am in tears!!! :p Now that was FUN--NEEEEE!!
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                      • Profile picture of the author Kirk Ward
                        Those are crap excuses, and totally unprofessional. Under contract law, if you cancel an order at any time, you are obligated to pay for the work done to date. 50% of the work done, 50% of the money is due. 100% of the work done, 100% of the money is due ... unless agreed to by the vendor.

                        As a buyer, I don't like giving my money to a writer before I get anything. If I were a writer, I wouldn't want to do any work for someone I didn't know and trust without an assurance that I would get paid.

                        That's where escrow services such as eLance and vWorker come in.

                        Don't do work, or hire someone without a trusted escrow service.

                        If you do, you're as unprofessional as they are, or you've got something special going on and your poo don't stink.
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                        • Profile picture of the author Ralf Skirr
                          Originally Posted by Kirk Ward View Post

                          As a buyer, I don't like giving my money to a writer before I get anything. If I were a writer, I wouldn't want to do any work for someone I didn't know and trust without an assurance that I would get paid.

                          That's where escrow services such as eLance and vWorker come in.

                          Don't do work, or hire someone without a trusted escrow service.
                          I second that. I had it happen that I paid a writer upfront and he never delivered the articles.

                          I would never pay a freelancer 100% upfront anymore, and escrow services are a good alternative for both sites.

                          This is even more important given the globalization of freelance work. Who would really sue a client or an freelancer living in a different country, as it is often the case?

                          For my own services I usually ask for 25% upfront, but I'm also having contracts where details are outlined precisely, and these are not international, but national customers for me.

                          Ralf
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                  • Profile picture of the author Zabrina
                    Originally Posted by cosmokid View Post

                    You know, sometimes it's funny how the WForum is like its own little reality with funky rules that don't comport at ALL with what goes on in the rest of the world.

                    For instance, you'll rarely find a major magazine or newspaper who will pay you up front for your writing.

                    Even book publishers only pay you either a third or half of your royalty advance upon signing your contract with them.

                    [...]

                    This comports with most other service type occupations where you pay someone after services are rendered. You don't pay your doctor or dentist or lawyer or accountant up front.
                    Major magazines and newspapers don't suddenly change their location, name, and email address and go missing.

                    Your doctor or dentist has all of your personal case history and information about your location.

                    People respect lawyers and accountants more than writers... if you represent yourself in court, you know you're likely to fail, and if you do your own taxes, you know you're missing things. If you write yourself, you have no way of knowing whether the writer's work is better than yours, because your writing is as good as you know writing can be.

                    You also deal with all four service occupations you listed in person, and people are more likely to pay up when they're face to face with the person they owe.
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  • Profile picture of the author Fun to Write
    I recently had a client, who had previously paid upfront, contact me about doing some articles for him. I agreed and he sent me a list of keywords. I waited for him to pay, but payment never came. I sent him an email about it, but got no reply.

    I simply ignored the keyword list and continued working for my other clients.

    The lesson here is to stick with your policy of never writing a single word without some sort of upfront payment. You're running a business - not a charity.

    The content you produce has lots of VALUE. If they could do it themselves they would, but they can't, so they come to a skilled writer to create valuable content for them. Remember that.
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    • Profile picture of the author phatsarr
      Life is just learnig and past experience will help to beware coming trouble.

      Just forget and live another day
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      • Profile picture of the author Zabrina
        Originally Posted by phatsarr View Post

        Life is just learnig and past experience will help to beware coming trouble.

        Just forget and live another day
        I strongly disagree.

        Work has been done. It should be paid for. Sure, it might not be worth taking them to small claims court over $50 or $200, but it's good work and it took time and energy -- twice what you'd think. The time it took to write, yes, and the time lost that could have been spent marketing to attract other clients, writing for them, etc.

        Sending a few quick emails and Paypal invoices only requires half an hour or an hour, tops.

        With three jobs in a row that didn't pay, giving the OP advice to just forget it is not a good idea. It could be one person under different names, a group of friends, or simply three different people attracted to a writer because the OP gives off an "easy to scam" attitude.

        Once you clamp down a few times and prove to others and yourself that you aren't afraid to be proactive in seeking out what you're owed, it shows in the way you talk about payment. It scares off the bad clients and attracts the ones who are honest.

        It's more than a few hundred dollars we're talking about here. If this were just one job, I might say that. But three in a row, and the OP admitting uncertainty about their payment process? That demands fixed.
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  • Profile picture of the author Brian Clark
    Thanks for sharing your story, Robin. I'll make sure to take the advice that others have given to request payment upfront.

    It's good to know that the majority of people you've worked with on the forum have been honest and ethical.
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  • Profile picture of the author Rob Whisonant
    When I get someone like that I just turn them over to a collection agency and let them make their life miserable until they pay. Works like a magic charm.

    Re's
    Rob Whisonant
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    • Profile picture of the author want2knowhow
      Originally Posted by Rob Whisonant View Post

      When I get someone like that I just turn them over to a collection agency and let them make their life miserable until they pay. Works like a magic charm.

      Re's
      Rob Whisonant
      . The best advice so far!

      I really feel for the writer but admonish those reprimanding him/her for their choice to trust the buyer for payment. A tough lesson to learn, but for every mistake in life...there is a eye opening lesson in there.

      Now, on another note, What I hate, is to pay for BAD work (and trust me, I've had some pretty bad so-called article writers!) that I either couldn't use because they were JUST that poorly written...or I rewrote it all together myself. The crap I've gotten back, my then 8 year old could have written better! It looked like something they threw into an article spinner and then sent it to me to pay them for.

      So, for those writers who do a horrible job but have been paid upfront & in full for their (time & effort)...what then of the displeased buyer?

      After my experiences, I decided to take the time to write my own articles. I mean, I gave very, very, detailed yet simle simon instructions for an article about the benefits of vacationing. What did I get back and demanded payment for...? Jibberish crap about financial planning and some other strung together mess that made no sense! That's not what the hello I paid for!
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      • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
        I used to have lunch a couple of times a month with a freelancer. Never did figure out exactly what he did, something in the construction business, but it doesn't really matter for this post.

        One time I asked him how he got paid, and did people ever stiff him. He said he used a standard formula, half upfront and half on complettion, with a twist.

        He figured out the lowest amount he would be happy with for doing the job, then doubled it. That way, even if all he got was the first half, he had enough to be satisfied.

        Harvey Mackay tells a story about going to a customer's office to collect on a past due account. Nothing Harvey tried up to that point had worked. So he paid a personal visit, bringing his two children with him. On arrival, he told the kids to go play in the office while the grownups talked business. The kids, as they had been coached, ran wild - poking into desk drawers, pulling files out of cabinets, playing with the phones, and generally running amok...

        Harvey left twenty minutes later with a check for the overdue amount.
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  • Profile picture of the author Alfredo Carrion
    Sorry to hear about theses problems. Unfortunately there are always going to be scammers out there, so try to take at least 50% upfront payment. If the client really wants you, then they will do this.
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  • Profile picture of the author Naanajud567
    Good thing that this happen to you only now in the span of two years...other writers have been victimized a lot...though not here in WF.
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  • Yeah as others have mentioned, you should be requiring a deposit. And assuming you have been writing for as long as you say you have, that should not be an issue, even a partial deposit.

    In the worst case, if they still decide to proliferate your work without paying, you can write to their hosting providers and send them a DCMA request to have it removed. Or what often times works, immediately publish all of the content on your own site, so their content becomes duplicate content and you have more proof of when it was created. Most people at that point, will either pay up or are just scammers.
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  • Profile picture of the author Amrutg
    It is not fair on the part of others , they should and must pay you. thanks for generating awareness and guiding for being more cautious while dealing with people in such deals.
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  • Profile picture of the author kfran
    It's really very simple, 50% upfront upon order, the remaining 50% upon completion and BEFORE delivery, for all work over say $100, and 100% upfront for everything under $100, if you are doing quality work you will have no problems with that model
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  • Profile picture of the author Redev
    I would advise that you set up maybe a 1 page design and market your services that way, many hosts offer a free billing system with their plans that will allow you to bill your clients BEFORE the work is delivered. This way you get payment upfront before sending an invoice. The internet is a scary place.. not everyone will honour their agreements with you.

    Good luck.
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  • Profile picture of the author Rough Outline
    I never agree to do work for anyone without having a full or 50% payment up front before any work is done. I do this for literally anyone and I recommend you do the same.
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  • Profile picture of the author mattlaclear
    I never do work without complete prepayment for my services. Seems like a simple solution to your dilemma if you would do the same.
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  • Profile picture of the author roypreece
    It depends how much they owe you on each contract.

    Obviously, you'll never do business with them again.

    There's an old saying: "If you lend someone $20 and never see them again, it was probably worth it."

    Same applies here, if the amount wasn't too high...
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  • Profile picture of the author pheonix44
    I think the idea to have bette terms will suit me well. I am going to create one and start distributing it to my clients from now on. By the way, the three non paying clients equals 150.00$.
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  • Profile picture of the author jbrowder2
    Sounds to me like you need to get a signed contract before you write an article. Then if they try to stiff you, you can threaten them with a lawsuit.

    OR--insist on 50-75% payment of the agreed upon fee upfront with the remainder to be paid upon completion.
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  • Profile picture of the author donhx
    Originally Posted by pheonix44 View Post

    I have been writing on this forum for two years now and never once had a problem getting paid. I usually got paid upfront, but every now and then I'll trust I will get paid when I turn in the work so I will not always ask for upfront payment.

    Lately I have had three people in a row give me crazy excuses as to why they were not going to pay.

    Case 1: I send the guy his work and ask for payment and 2 days go by. I send a few more e-mails and then the guy gets back to me three days later biting my head off and telling me that because I am bugging him he is not going to pay.

    Case 2: Me and a client agree on a price and he sends me the keywords. After I complete and turn in his work the same thing happens. Two days go by without me hearing from him. When I do he tell me shortly that I never confirmed I was working on the articles and he hired someone else. We agreed beforehand and he sent me the keywords so what gives.

    Case 3: Guy sends me a keyword list and I complete his articles. He takes forever to get back to me and when he does he says he does not need the articles anymore and for that reason he is refusing to pay.

    Keep in mind that this all happened in the span of one week and it has never happened to me before. I have been doing this for two years with no problems. I am now going to have to demand payment upfront in order to protect myself or at least get half of it. Are any other writers having the same problem?
    I blame Obama. Seems like personal responsibility and initiative is dead, and more people are expecting a free ride at someone else's expense. To them, your hard work is their entitlement.

    No, political arguments please... I was only joking. But I do think the kind of irresponsibility shown in your cases does reflect the spirit of our times.

    Normally, a writer would charge more overall to compensate for this kind of "shrinkage" (like higher prices in stores due to shoplifters), but IM writing prices are already at the bottom of the scale, so there is little hope for that.
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  • Profile picture of the author pheonix44
    Sounds to me like you need to get a signed contract before you write an article. Then if they try to stiff you, you can threaten them with a lawsuit.
    A lawsuit would be a good scare tactic, but would not be worth the trouble.
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  • Profile picture of the author pheonix44
    I just made a couple of revisions to protect myself and I think it will work out nicely. I got alot of ideas I would have never thought of from some of the replies in this post. Thank you.
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  • Profile picture of the author Charlotte Jay
    I know I'm a little late to the game but I wanted to add my two cents. I never work without being paid first and also I have two small clauses in my Paypal invoices that state copyright and refund policies to cover my butt. If I'm writing an ebook then they have to sign a contract with me.
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  • Profile picture of the author John Racine
    That seems to be a potential curse on the internet, such a shame it is that way. I know every time I have bought articles, I have had to pay up front. May be something to consider.

    John
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    • Profile picture of the author twinmom
      And there's always the flip side to consider.

      What about the folks that order the content and do pay in advance and don't end up receiving the work?

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  • Profile picture of the author pheonix44
    And there's always the flip side to consider.

    What about the folks that order the content and do pay in advance and don't end up receiving the work?
    You are protected in that case because you can simply file a complaint with paypal. The writer on the other hand cannot do much but kick rocks.
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    • Profile picture of the author Kirk Ward
      Originally Posted by pheonix44 View Post

      You are protected in that case because you can simply file a complaint with paypal. The writer on the other hand cannot do much but kick rocks.
      I can't see much point in either a new writer or an unfamiliar buyer working on anything through PayPal until they have either developed a level of trust or are comfortable with losing whatever their investment is, whether it is in time or money.

      If you're just starting to work with someone new, you're probably better served in negotiating through eLance of vWorker and using their escrow service until you're comfortable with the risk.
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      "We are not here to sell a parcel of boilers and vats, but the potentiality of growing rich beyond the dreams of avarice."

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    • Profile picture of the author Vanessa Reece
      Quote:
      And there's always the flip side to consider.

      What about the folks that order the content and do pay in advance and don't end up receiving the work?
      Originally Posted by pheonix44 View Post

      You are protected in that case because you can simply file a complaint with paypal. The writer on the other hand cannot do much but kick rocks.
      In theory this may be simple as pie but if you're dealing with someone who's relatively well known, especially here, you may feel that you don't want to rock the boat... I know of someone in that situation now who's been waiting 8 months for copy they paid in advance to a well known and supposed trusted person here. It's ridiculous. What I'm saying is business should be business but it doesn't always work that way.

      Me personally...
      I get 50% in advance for work but twice I didn't get that 50% and both times I had a job getting paid. I did get it in the end but I was not going to go through that again, no matter how small the job.

      I had a feeling when reading this is could have been just one guy who stitched the OP under a few different guises... just a theory or possibly the reason Kay mentioned.

      V
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  • Profile picture of the author H.Miller
    Originally Posted by pheonix44 View Post

    I have been writing on this forum for two years now and never once had a problem getting paid. I usually got paid upfront, but every now and then I'll trust I will get paid when I turn in the work so I will not always ask for upfront payment.

    Lately I have had three people in a row give me crazy excuses as to why they were not going to pay.

    Case 1: I send the guy his work and ask for payment and 2 days go by. I send a few more e-mails and then the guy gets back to me three days later biting my head off and telling me that because I am bugging him he is not going to pay.

    Case 2: Me and a client agree on a price and he sends me the keywords. After I complete and turn in his work the same thing happens. Two days go by without me hearing from him. When I do he tell me shortly that I never confirmed I was working on the articles and he hired someone else. We agreed beforehand and he sent me the keywords so what gives.

    Case 3: Guy sends me a keyword list and I complete his articles. He takes forever to get back to me and when he does he says he does not need the articles anymore and for that reason he is refusing to pay.

    Keep in mind that this all happened in the span of one week and it has never happened to me before. I have been doing this for two years with no problems. I am now going to have to demand payment upfront in order to protect myself or at least get half of it. Are any other writers having the same problem?
    mmmm Interesting. I have had somewhat of a similar problem in the last week. I wonder if we are dealing with the same people????
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  • Profile picture of the author gefflong
    Any chance these were all the same person? I'm thinking that is a real possibility.

    Geff
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    • Profile picture of the author contentwriter1205
      Originally Posted by gefflong View Post

      Any chance these were all the same person? I'm thinking that is a real possibility.

      Geff
      Ya me too. It is quite easy to create new ids. People do that all the time, spammers especially. Unless you are using an IP tracking software or something, it is very difficult to find that the same person is using both the ids. This happens all the time, and I have to say that I've faced the same.
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  • Profile picture of the author JamieSEO
    Originally Posted by pheonix44 View Post

    I have been writing on this forum for two years now and never once had a problem getting paid. I usually got paid upfront, but every now and then I'll trust I will get paid when I turn in the work so I will not always ask for upfront payment. Are any other writers having the same problem?
    Hey Pheonix

    Unfortunately it is not just writers that are having this issue. A month or two ago I had to switch to having clients pre-pay either via PayPal or Fund Projects via Elance.

    It sucks to lose trust in people, but I've just been ripped off too many times with providing keyword research, seo, website design, publishing and writing to take the risk any more

    For website design the payment side of things has always been an issue and the excuses given for not paying have to be seen to be believed :rolleyes:
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  • Profile picture of the author contentwriter1205
    It happens all the time. When you were getting upfront payments before, you should'nt have gone back on it. Peope who refuse to pay upfron are usually middle men, and working with them usually involve high risk. Even if they paid upfront the first time, don't agree to work without upfront the next time. This is how this business is.
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  • Profile picture of the author bogdan247
    I only had once the misfortune of working with this type of clients. As I was getting close to finish a project, the guy asked me to refund all the money he paid me so far. He claimed that my work was not satisfactory, even he reviewed it earlier and asked me to carry on with it.
    Luckily, I was working on oDesk, which has a payment guarantee in place, so I was just told him to get real. The whole experience left a real sour taste in my mouth.
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  • Profile picture of the author Chris Q
    Banned
    I don't have problems with my client until now. He always pays me upfront before I start working. I always send him the Paypal invoice and reminder every 2 days if he doesn't pay me yet. So far, so good for me now.
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  • Profile picture of the author celente
    what a horrible situation. You are definatly in need of help Wasnt there a warrior offering his legal services for free in here teh other day.
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