Ethical Marketers - You're Joking, Right?

92 replies
I know I am going to get flamed for this, but the time has come and I need to say what needs to be said.

  • If you have made no money online - or very little - why are you promoting a make money online course? I remember a long time ago when there were ads in the newspaper like this - "Learn how to make $5000 a month stuffing envelopes. Send $1 to" (and then the address would appear here.) The person, who was attracted to the offer, sent $1 and in return the received a letter that basically said - in order to make money stuffing envelopes - place an ad in the newspaper or magazine of choice and say "Learn how to make $5000 a month stuffing envelopes." Round and round she goes......... Is that something that you would be proud to tell your children that you do?
  • There are some wonderful IM'ers - but IMHO - most I wouldn't trust as far as I could throw them. The industry is falling into the gutters! Ones that I trust are Tiffany Dow, Jonathan Tang, and a few others who have not yet proven themselves yet.... YOU might be a great IM'er that I have not had much experience with - I am sorry I did not mention you.
  • Who are all these "great" warriors that recommend WSO's that provide little value to the community? Remember, when you promote or back a "crappy" product, you damage your reputation. If you have misgivings - you should state them publicly. Be brave and state your opinion without "trashing" the creator. I believe you will gain more followers with your honest reviews.
  • If you truly have a "super secret" technique you can exploit, we all know you will not give it away or sell it. Why would you? Instead you would jump on the opportunity and do the best you could with it, as we all would. Why would anyone give these "gold digging" secrets away?"
I measure my success this way - I hope that in everything I do -my children would not be disappointed in my actions. I hope that there are many warriors that think the same way - but maybe I am too altruistic!
#ethical #joking #marketers
  • Profile picture of the author eric w
    I remember those days..I had a 900 number back then..remember those?

    Well robsterhews, understand that you may trust those people you mentioned, but others may not because they haven't dealt with them...and vice versa...

    There are some IMers that warriors trust, but you may not.....and then there are those that most of us may trust.

    I do agree that the industry is falling in terms of reputable IMers and those with integrity.

    eric w
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    • Profile picture of the author Rob Howard
      Originally Posted by eric w View Post


      I do agree that people everywhere in life has been falling forever in terms of reputable integrity.
      Fixed that for ya.

      So long as human psychology remains the same, there will always be those who will do anything to make a buck.

      Most industries are fraught with fraud, deception and deceit. I just hate it when people think IM is something special and is above it all.

      Rob

      Edit: Rob, you aren't saying anything new. It's been said in this forum over and over and over and over again. Personally I hope this thread gets deleted. It doesn't contribute anything of value. So how about instead you post something that is cool and helps people.

      Lead by example, I say.
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  • Profile picture of the author mikemcmillan
    Rob,
    I think it would be hard for people to disagree with your last paragraph!

    And I'm not defending people spamming mailboxes everyday with junk offers. But it is kind of the nature of the business. One the big Clickbank product launches the affiliate pages and JV forums will often have comments such as, "Promote my launch and I will be there for yours!"

    The person making that statement may have a list of well over 100,000 subscribers. A lot of his JV partners will promote because they need his help for their next launch. Like I said, some of that is inherent in the business. I'm not saying one should compromise their principles, but hyped advertising isn't just with IM, it's a part of nearly every business.

    Here on the WF you can find what you are looking for, whether good or bad. However, there are tons of very giving Warriors who give advice of value for free. Some WSOs are better than others, but I think there are very few of little or no value. Most of the people here are honest and decent individuals. --Mike
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  • Profile picture of the author Simscor
    This is exactly what I have been saying. I don't know who and what to trust. I guess that's why I haven't gone too far with IM. I hope I can get this down soon. I think the ability to create traffic, would excite me just as much as the money.
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    • Profile picture of the author pruitts
      Originally Posted by Simscor View Post

      This is exactly what I have been saying. I don't know who and what to trust. I guess that's why I haven't gone too far with IM. I hope I can get this down soon. I think the ability to create traffic, would excite me just as much as the money.
      I've realized that being happy is a choice. You never want to rub anybody the wrong way or not be fun to be around, but you have to be happy. When I get logical and I don't trust my instincts - Thats when I get in trouble.

      Trust, but verify..
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  • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
    Banned
    Well, with all of your 18 posts as a contribution to this forum, it doesn't appear that you've spent enough time contributing to even begin to know how many ethical marketers are here. You mention two. You should spend more time reading and less time making judgements, since you seem to have missed a whole bunch of them.

    As an example, I tend to buy from people who have built up a reputation here. With 18 posts and something for sale in your signature, give me a good reason that you should be trusted. We don't know you.

    That's not casting aspersions on your ethics ... just stating a fact. You are an unknown here, yet feel like this forum has some shortage of ethical marketers. It's simply not true. As in any industry, there are frauds and scammers, but there are many ethical marketers on this forum.
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    • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Chris Kent View Post

      I don't really see what his lack of posts has to do with anything. Level of contribution has nothing to do with the validity of his observations. If anything, it probably gives him more impartiality and therefore greater credibility.

      Just looking at it from another angle that's all. I think some people in this thread seem to have taken great offence but I actually agree with him that most internet marketers, the famous ones anyway (noobs surely outnumber everyone and I think the OP is talking about the big names) cannot be trusted, at least I do not trust most of the big names.

      I'm not the only one to think this either. I've noticed that many of the ethical big names have actually retreated into the shadows and away from the limelight. They don't want to be associated with the current crop of big names because there are so many bad apples.

      Why else do you all think that anti-guru feelings are at an all time high?
      He's the one who made "lack of contribution" an issue when he said:

      Who are all these "great" warriors that recommend WSO's that provide little value to the community?
      A lurker is not a contributor and thus far, he is not a contributor. This forum is full of the lazy and the dreamers who buy one WSO after another without putting any energy into actually implementing them, especially when they find out they require a bit of work to get results. I take the anti-guru crap with a grain of salt. In fact, there are far more newbies, those who are not contributors, who come here and launch products with no reputations behind them are far more likely to scam and launch shoddy products than are those who have a reputation to defend.

      I've bought my fair share of WSOs and I have been happy with the money spent 99% of the time. But then, I don't buy indiscriminately and I don't look for a way to make XXX amount of dollars in XXX amount of time without lifting a finger.

      If the dreamers didn't demand that type of product, they wouldn't exist.
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      • Profile picture of the author ExRat
        Hi,

        robsterhews -

        Who are all these "great" warriors that recommend WSO's that provide little value to the community? Remember, when you promote or back a "crappy" product, you damage your reputation. If you have misgivings - you should state them publicly. Be brave and state your opinion without "trashing" the creator. I believe you will gain more followers with your honest reviews.
        ...and...

        Chris Kent -

        frankly, the testimonials are becoming laughable. I've called a couple of WSO sellers out on this myself recently and when I left my honest reviews, their WSOs stopped dead in their tracks because they were basically outted and exposed.
        I have noticed recently that certain members are serial reviewers/testimonial givers. I can think of one who is on about 80% of the WSOs I look at. I can only guess this person is watching the WSO forum and PMs the sellers of new WSOs and is presumeably getting a free education by getting all those WSOs as review copies.

        I don't have any particular problem with this, but I do think it makes a bit of a mockery and gives fuel to those who suggest that testimonials are false/fake and that there is a lot of incestuous/unethical behaviour going on. Why? Because of all of the testimonials I have seen by them, they are ALL glowing.

        I have bought some of the products myself, found them to be mediocre and although I didn't refund them, in retrospect the testimonials (in general) were more hypey and misleading than the salesletters (which is saying something).


        Hi Linda_C,

        I highly, highly recommend Viktor Frankl's book, Man's Search for Meaning
        Thanks for that - wishlisted and soon to be owned.
        Signature


        Roger Davis

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        • Profile picture of the author Linda_C
          Originally Posted by ExRat View Post

          I have bought some of the products myself, found them to be mediocre and although I didn't refund them, in retrospect the testimonials (in general) were more hypey and misleading than the salesletters (which is saying something).
          Okay, now that's funny. True, but still funny.


          P.S. You'll love the book. That's a promise. PM me after you read it and tell me what you though.
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      • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
        Banned
        Originally Posted by Chris Kent View Post

        But don't you think that if we take a random selection of WSOs, that they don't necessarily need to be useful to the buyer (everyone has different circumstances, sure) but should at least live up to the claims?

        A lot of WSOs today don't. And, frankly, the testimonials are becoming laughable. I've called a couple of WSO sellers out on this myself recently and when I left my honest reviews, their WSOs stopped dead in their tracks because they were basically outted and exposed.

        And if these dreamer products exist, that doesn't mean we should condone them just because the demand is there.
        Absolutely they should live up to the claims and people who buy and actually implement the WSO should leave a fair review if they are unfounded claims. You actually rarely see that happening though. Good for you that you did, as long as it was a completely objective review by someone who purchased and put the effort in.

        Fake testimonials are as deplorable as fake income claims and fake screenshots. I have seen WSOs shut down by mods because of fake screenshots.

        I take exception to the OP implying that the term "ethical marketers" is a joke.

        Like I said, I know a ton of ethical marketers on this forum. Funny thing is, I was just looking over the WSO forum, which I rarely ever do, to see the headlines. Right now, there are very few that have income claims in the headlines. Software, backlinking, services, etc., SEO strategies, but very few that promise big bucks with no work within a certain period of time, which are usually the most deceptive WSOs IMO.

        I really wish more people would have common sense when buying WSOs. There's some real simple rules, but you can't chase the dreamers away from a headline that promises easy money with a stick. It is what they are looking for.

        Launch a WSO that tells them you will show them how to build a profitable, sustainable online business from scratch, providing they do the work, and they aren't even remotely interested in it. Make an offer that sounds too good to be true ... and they're all over it.

        What do people expect when they are looking for something that doesn't really exist? There's always going to be scammers who pander to those dreamsers.
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        • Profile picture of the author Rob Howard
          Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

          Launch a WSO that tells them you will show them how to build a profitable, sustainable online business from scratch, providing they do the work, and they aren't even remotely interested in it. Make an offer that sounds too good to be true ... and they're all over it.
          I've actually done this. Done this - I launched a WSO that taught them exactly how to build up a sustainable business.

          Can you guess the response? I don't even need to comment on it.

          I decided that, you know, I was going to give this a try. Have faith in people. Say: "here is the offer, it will make you big bucks actually."

          I was 100% honest in my copy (actually, I always am honest, but I do use plenty of hype normally), explained what was needed.

          I had a handful of buyers and that's it.

          I poured my heart and soul into that product, which gave away some of the most powerful business building secrets.

          No one wanted it.

          So, the very next week I launched a "big money, easy work" wso. The response was so different it wasn't even funny.

          People want the dream. They don't want the work.

          You know, I hear all the bitching and whining about scams. But as long as people, the market place, demands easy money/no work, people will supply that demand.

          Rob
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          • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
            Banned
            Originally Posted by ccmusicman View Post

            I've actually done this. Done this - I launched a WSO that taught them exactly how to build up a sustainable business.

            Can you guess the response? I don't even need to comment on it.
            Same with me. I've launched a couple of WSOs that merely taught newbies the ropes on how to get set up, a lot of technical stuff they're always asking about, how to do the niche research to choose a business niche, etc. etc. etc.

            Dismal FAILURE. It involved work with no promise of a Ferrari and an estate and hot babes hanging out. Just a boring business plan.
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      • Profile picture of the author Black Hat Cat
        Banned
        Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

        I don't look for a way to make XXX amount of dollars in XXX amount of time without lifting a finger.

        If the dreamers didn't demand that type of product, they wouldn't exist.
        Illogical. I'll let you try and figure out why on your own.
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  • Profile picture of the author Rod Cortez
    Who are all these "great" warriors that recommend WSO's that provide little value to the community? Remember, when you promote or back a "crappy" product, you damage your reputation. If you have misgivings - you should state them publicly. Be brave and state your opinion without "trashing" the creator. I believe you will gain more followers with your honest reviews.
    In the context of the Warrior Forum, you can only state them publicly in the WSO thread as long as it follows the WSO forum rules (being objective, must have purchased and used the product, not posting simply to sabotage the WSO, etc.). But you cannot name specific names or products in any of the other forums for the reasons already mentioned here:

    http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...bers-read.html

    RoD
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    - Jim Rohn
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  • Profile picture of the author NickFarina
    Originally Posted by robsterhews View Post

    There are some wonderful IM'ers - but IMHO - most I wouldn't trust as far as I could throw them.
    I agree with you to a certain extent, I think there are a lot of Internet Marketers whose sole intention is to promote to you without providing you with any real value.

    However on the flip side of the coin there are some Internet Marketers who provide great value, overdeliver and give away a lot of quality free content. One such guy is Lee Mcintyre over here in the UK. A lot of what he teaches is based on the principles of overdelivering.

    I think after being on someones mailing list a short while, it is easy to work out if they are one of the marketers who will only promote to you from those whose lists are worth being on and actually worth listening to.

    Unfortunately there are a few s**ts out there but like you say there are some good guys. I wont stay on someones mailing list long if it is just promote, promote, promote.
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  • Profile picture of the author JamesGw
    Was the IM world ever that ethical? I mean, there's good information out there, but there's also a lot of crap. What people need to really realize is that they don't need a bunch of guides on how to make money online. They need industry-related information, ecommerce cart administration knowledge (or however they want to make money, whether by being an affiliate or selling leads,) and general search engine / general marketing knowledge.

    All of these can be had from technical books, which are much more reliable and informative than IM Guru products. People are just lazy and don't know where to look or want an easier alternative.
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  • Profile picture of the author Fernando Veloso
    Way to get noticed, huh?

    If you truly have a "super secret" technique you can exploit, we all know you will not give it away or sell it. Why would you? Instead you would jump on the opportunity and do the best you could with it, as we all would. Why would anyone give these "gold digging" secrets away?"
    Just did last year and it was a misery of WSO. No one wanted it. Fact is I still use it to this day, with success. Why don't share it? I really can't use it outside Portugal!! So... there you have it. Just one small example to prove people here REALLY share good stuff.

    I noticed you're NOT a War Room member. So... why in the world are you assuming ideas when you never saw all the knowledge inside War Room? All the knowledge shared for FREE by hundreds of different marketers?

    Perhaps you can spend more time reading, join the War Room, and then come back here and tell us if you discovered more "ethical" marketers.
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    People make good money selling to the rich. But the rich got rich selling to the masses.
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    • Profile picture of the author Sandor Verebi
      Originally Posted by Fernando Veloso View Post

      Way to get noticed, huh?



      Just did last year and it was a misery of WSO. No one wanted it. Fact is I still use it to this day, with success. Why don't share it? I really can't use it outside Portugal!! So... there you have it. Just one small example to prove people here REALLY share good stuff.

      I noticed you're NOT a War Room member. So... why in the world are you assuming ideas when you never saw all the knowledge inside War Room? All the knowledge shared for FREE by hundreds of different marketers?

      Perhaps you can spend more time reading, join the War Room, and then come back here and tell us if you discovered more "ethical" marketers.
      Hi Fernando,

      May your first sentence holds the truth... who knows?

      Anyway, I totally agree with your post. The OP's interest would be to get and follow your advice.

      We would to see later, what he learned.

      Greetings,

      Sandor
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  • Profile picture of the author Helps Here
    You can be totally ethical and market and sell products. Its how it was regularly done in the 40s and 50s, why not now. Greed is not the way to be happy.
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  • Profile picture of the author Matt Bard
    I've been a member here since the beginning.

    As one of the first 1000 back in 1997 or 98 I can tell you that you are way off base with your generalizations about us.

    Unless you have personally bought and read every WSO or product being offered by our members, you are not operating from facts.

    I would agree that it seems as though the statements in your post are true, but it only looks that dire because in this IM niche and here at the forum, a lot of our dirty laundry gets aired more than in the "dog grooming" forums.

    People in other niches don't spend as much time as we do evaluating our own methods, having full blown debates, or even starting threads like this.

    You also haven't been a member here long enough to have had the wonderful opportunity to get to know the majority of the people here that are honest, hard working, and have good hearts.

    Just look at the amount of free, helpful, and valuable information that many IM veterans have given away over the years.

    Not just marketing related stuff either.

    When people here have had real needs, personal life needs, Warriors have come together to help without hesitation.

    Do we have some things to work out? Of course.

    Are we more dysfunctional than other niches? I would say no. Look at the amount of time we spend like this trying to hash out our problems.

    I am also willing to bet that if you stick around long enough, you will agree with me that there is no better place to learn from than here.
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  • Profile picture of the author Julie McElroy
    Just like any business out there, there are going to be shady people who only want your money! You may be tempted get cynical when you come across it, but just walk away and move on I have learned.

    You have to learn who you can trust by looking at their reputation and what value they offer. Luckily for YOU, you have come to the right place. If you want to learn about someone, something, etc, the Warrior Forum is an invaluable place for info! (I am not just saying this for brownie points).

    I can't tell you the value I have found by doing some digging here on products, people, etc. Stick around and you will surely find more than two ethical marketers!
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    • Profile picture of the author HankTheCowDog
      Newbie here, enjoying the debate.

      I think it's no different than many other professions; some take shortcuts, others take the old way home.

      I've trolled long enough to know no matter which route a person takes, the info learned on this forum cab be applied to both.

      It's great to hear the passionate opinions.
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  • Profile picture of the author Lisa RRB
    Originally Posted by Chris Kent View Post

    I've heard rumours about Pana 2 happening a few days ago. Google seems to hate affiliates. We can expect these incestuous IM tactics to continue as people get more desperate to make money and are peddled crap from people who are more desperate to make money.
    Actually I've been thinking about this a little bit. I wouldn't say that Google hates affiliates... actually I believe Google wants to be the "super affiliate." I often wonder if they are monetizing Google Shopping somehow. If that is true then Google is just trying to stamp out competition.

    As for the OP of this thread. I don't find IM to be any less ethical than my other field, engineering. The forum provides a multitude of information and has tons of helpful people in it. Of course there are always scammers and what not. You just gotta learn how to spot them.
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    • Profile picture of the author fxmmorale
      Originally Posted by Lisa RRB View Post

      Actually I've been thinking about this a little bit. I wouldn't say that Google hates affiliates... actually I believe Google wants to be the "super affiliate." I often wonder if they are monetizing Google Shopping somehow. If that is true then Google is just trying to stamp out competition.

      As for the OP of this thread. I don't find IM to be any less ethical than my other field, engineering. The forum provides a multitude of information and has tons of helpful people in it. Of course there are always scammers and what not. You just gotta learn how to spot them.
      I recently got an email from Google suggesting various affiliate programs that would work well with one of my sites. If they hated affiliates they certainly wouldn't be sending emails like that.

      As far as unethical marketing goes, if you're conditioned to buy more than you are to sell than it's very easy to pick out all of the negatives when it comes to marketing.

      Granted there are products and programs that are quote, unquote "rehashed" but that goes on in all facets of marketing and sales.

      When you consider the amount of songs and movies that have been remade and remixed over and over again for years, very rarely do you hear anybody complaining about the "newer" version.

      Heck if you don't like what the next author, composer or filmmaker has done... get a refund.

      If you're comments were made with the intention of becoming a seller/marketer than it's best to focus your talents and abilities on mastering your craft instead of criticizing others who have already taken that step.

      That sounded a bit opinionated but take it for what it's worth and let it mold you into becoming what it is you want to be... whatever that is.
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  • Profile picture of the author magnates
    Originally Posted by robsterhews View Post

    I know I am going to get flamed for this, but the time has come and I need to say what needs to be said.

    • If you have made no money online - or very little - why are you promoting a make money online course? I remember a long time ago when there were ads in the newspaper like this - "Learn how to make $5000 a month stuffing envelopes. Send $1 to" (and then the address would appear here.) The person, who was attracted to the offer, sent $1 and in return the received a letter that basically said - in order to make money stuffing envelopes - place an ad in the newspaper or magazine of choice and say "Learn how to make $5000 a month stuffing envelopes." Round and round she goes......... Is that something that you would be proud to tell your children that you do?
    • There are some wonderful IM'ers - but IMHO - most I wouldn't trust as far as I could throw them. The industry is falling into the gutters! Ones that I trust are Tiffany Dow, Jonathan Tang, and a few others who have not yet proven themselves yet.... YOU might be a great IM'er that I have not had much experience with - I am sorry I did not mention you.
    • Who are all these "great" warriors that recommend WSO's that provide little value to the community? Remember, when you promote or back a "crappy" product, you damage your reputation. If you have misgivings - you should state them publicly. Be brave and state your opinion without "trashing" the creator. I believe you will gain more followers with your honest reviews.
    • If you truly have a "super secret" technique you can exploit, we all know you will not give it away or sell it. Why would you? Instead you would jump on the opportunity and do the best you could with it, as we all would. Why would anyone give these "gold digging" secrets away?"
    I measure my success this way - I hope that in everything I do -my children would not be disappointed in my actions. I hope that there are many warriors that think the same way - but maybe I am too altruistic!
    You got a very bad mindset . What makes money is delivering value to others.You don't have to make money on the internet before you deliver value to people . You can help people get more of what they want and less of what they don't . It is that simple . For instance , if you create a tool that helps triples marketers productivity or subscribers, or conversions , you make money selling that kind of product .

    There are plenty of ethical marketers out there . Not everybody is a scam artist . People like me , Brandon Burchard , Eben pagan , Tristan Bull , Chris Farell , Greg Habsritt , Kim Roach that geniuely over deliver on their promises .

    Yes , I know some people are shady but not everyone is interested in running away with your money .Don't trash the warrior forum .It is packed with amazing people who have great value to offer. If you don't feel that IM is wonderful why join the warrior forum

    Honesty is good but just being negative is not ok .

    Warrior forum is an amazing resource .Hope you realise how valueable this forum is and how valueable the people here are
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  • Profile picture of the author mikecole62
    Basically what it boils down to is that sales has a bad rap to it whether it be IM or a used car salesman. I was sitting in dunkin donuts and I overheard one guy complaining to his buddy about being ripped off from yellow pages. People who are unethical or use questionable sales practices are not going to get referral business which is the life blood of any business. Remember referrals can work for your or against you.
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  • Profile picture of the author Linda_C
    Hi Robster, nice to meet you and welcome to WF. Mind if I share some of my experience and thoughts?

    Originally Posted by robsterhews View Post

    If you have made no money online - or very little - why are you promoting a make money online course?
    Let me tell you about "Jane" (not her real name) Jane is well over 50 and lost her job after working one place for 20+ years. She's having trouble finding anyone who wants to hire an "almost ready to retire" person, so she looked online. Found this nice young guru type that tells the story of how he started selling on ebay, then got his own site, and now he's rolling in money,etc., etc. He offers a course on how to learn to make money online. So she spent $500 of her precious savings to take the course, only to find that he's teaching people to promote MMO (make money online) products. When I met Jane, she told me she feels like "sh*t" trying to teach what she's never done.

    See, sometimes newbies sell that stuff because they don't know better. Others sell it because some guru type told them that's where to make money. And they're broke. And the guru isn't. Ever heard of social proof? It's a pretty strong thing. Instead of flogging people who are trying to sell MMO before earning any, we could maybe help them instead?


    Originally Posted by robsterhews View Post

    There are some wonderful IM'ers - but IMHO - most I wouldn't trust as far as I could throw them. The industry is falling into the gutters!
    Change IM'ers to "people" and "most" to "some" and you're spot on. There are some wonderful people -- but some I wouldn't trust as far as I could throw them. Incidentally, the industry isn't falling into the gutters. Some people just spend all their life in the gutters. Others don't. The phrase snake oil was coined l-o-n-g ago for these very same people.

    I highly, highly recommend Viktor Frankl's book, Man's Search for Meaning. Excellent, excellent read. Quick and easy to read, too. And it explains so much about the 2 types of people in the world. It changed my perceptions on SO much.



    Originally Posted by robsterhews View Post

    Who are all these "great" warriors that recommend WSO's that provide little value to the community? Remember, when you promote or back a "crappy" product, you damage your reputation. If you have misgivings - you should state them publicly. Be brave and state your opinion without "trashing" the creator. I believe you will gain more followers with your honest reviews.
    To start with, "crappy" is relative. I remember way back in the mid to late nineties. The first ebook I ever bought, I didn't even finish reading. Way back then, the most popular forum was Tony Blake's and there were people bashing the book left, right and center on the forum, calling it crap.

    But for me, the book said one sentence that changed my life. It said "90% of people don't buy on the first visit, so stop trying to make the sale and focus on getting an email address." That one sentence changed the world for me. It was worth every penny of the $17 I spent on that book.

    So crap is relative. And really, it's kind up to the buyer to figure out what they NEED TO LEARN at any given point, and buy accordingly. And yes, there is also onus on the seller to SAY what they are selling - but beyond that, crap is relative. If you already know something, paying for it makes it crap. But if you don't know it, it's not crap.

    Often the "crap" is not so much the product, but the sales copy because it often does not properly explain what the product is. And if the seller would say this is newbie level info about "abc" - then it's not crap to a newbie. Products become crap when we buy looking for one thing and get another. IMHO, anyway.


    Originally Posted by robsterhews View Post

    If you truly have a "super secret" technique you can exploit, we all know you will not give it away or sell it. Why would you?
    I give away gold digging secrets all the time. I don't know many of the products here, but I know Suzanne (sbucciarel) gives away gold digging secrets, too. I know because I bought one of her products to learn something I haven't done yet and it royally kicks arse. I bought 3 different products on the same topic and hers rocks the heck out of the others.

    Why would marketers give away their best secrets? Because when other people succeed with them, our success follows theirs.

    But see, the "why" of it is also explained by understanding that all people do not fall into the same category as far as how we approach relationships with other people, whether it's business or personal. Another little tip I learned from Frankl's book.


    I won't haggle you for being new, because I appear to be relatively new, too. I'm not - I had a membership here years ago, but lost the login so I started over. lol. And new to the forum or not, most of us aren't new to life or people or business and we all have an equal right to have an opinion.

    Thanks for a great conversation! Now I'm back out to the deck to get a bit more sun while it's shining. Working on a script for a video. Woohoo - gotta love being able to work in a tank top and bare feet in the sun.

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    • Profile picture of the author Damani Tabor
      It is absolutely possible to be ethical today...

      ... especially when you are providing actual tools and material assets.

      Reliable tools that make our jobs as IMers easier are very easily discernible as fake/the real thing.

      On the matter of giving advice, It's a bit harder for one who is the student to determine, before trial and error, if it is accurate.

      And in those cases we need to cross check with tons of perr reviews to make sure all is well.

      The key here... is the kind of peers.. Not other big marketers... But other students.

      Thats when an objective picture unfolds.
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  • Profile picture of the author alcymart
    I have met many great people at WF and I do trust mostly everyone here! How dare you make judgements on folks at WF! Yes, I flame you and your post like you expected.

    Go blame someone else for your misfortunes. We at WF are positively minded people. I suggest that you rethink your position. Either you are an Internet Marketer or you're not!

    Those who have fallen below as you stated are not true IM'ers and most of those don't come here on WF. Their spotted easily and ignored along with their WSO's.

    Bernard St-Pierre
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  • Profile picture of the author Istvan Horvath
    If everybody was like myself, the WSO section would make money only for Allen

    I never open that section, I just don't trust all those hyped salesletters.

    However, I buy products from time to time from members that I got to know through their posts and contribution. So, the only way I end up in the wso section is by clicking sig links of marketers I trust.

    It's a simple method but works very well for filtering out the garbage.
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  • Profile picture of the author Fazal Mayar
    You are right on some accounts though, ethics are something that a lot of IM's dont seem to care about right now, it was to be expected no? There is still a big part of us that do care about ethics but in any kind of field or business, there will be people with good and bad intentions!
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  • Profile picture of the author Nightengale
    Originally Posted by Chris Kent View Post

    Integrity in the IM world is dropping like a stone at the moment. It seems to be a race to the bottom and we are all going to suffer for it.
    I don't know what you're talking about. The IM mentors I follow have the highest integrity and I've been following them for several years.

    Alexandria Brown (AliBrown.com) is my primary IM mentor. I started following her around 2005 and have been very happy with the products I've bought from her. I've followed her ascent to tremendous business success. She's "for real" and for those who ever doubted it, her success was validated when she was one of the millionaires featured on the last episode of "Secret Millionaire." (The producers had to validate her income claims AND she had to agree to give away $100,000 of her own money to be on the show.) I have the highest respect for her, her business, and her success.

    I also follow Carrie Wilkerson, AKA the Barefoot Executive (Barefoot-Executive.com). She also has the HIGHEST integrity and is completely authentic. I've been very happy with the products I've bought from her also. I even had the privilege of meeting her in person just 2 days ago in Orlando. She's exactly the same in person as she appears on her website and in her videos. Phenomenal lady!

    Sheri McConnell of the Smart Women's Institute of Entrepreneurial Learning (and formerly of the National Association of Women Writers), was my coach and mentor last year. (SmartWomenInstitute.com) She's very successful while staying in complete authenticity and integrity. I feel privileged to be one of her students and have been VERY happy with her products and services.

    She also co-published my book under her imprint.

    While I started out buying low-priced products from each of them, I have bought things from each of them which were well over $1,000 -- and worth every penny.

    I TOTALLY understand the frustration with hype, scams and products that just plain don't deliver. But I think this just underscores the need to pick your mentors and coaches very wisely. It DOESN'T mean that "everyone" in the IM space lacks integrity. While I DO understand the frustration, I get really annoyed when people make a blanket statement that "everyone" (meaning the IM gurus) are just full of hype and sell scams.

    If you've been in the IM space for any length of time and are still being taken by scams, then I say you need to look in the mirror. Maybe that sounds harsh, but YOU are responsible for who you listen to and buy from. Pick just one or two you can trust and then put your blinders on. Don't be jumping from one person to the next!

    If you're not sure who to listen to, come here for recommendations. We'll help. Some may be more suitable for you than others. But maybe it's time to get ruthless about who you listen to and buy from. There ARE successful people with integrity out there who will mentor you.

    Michelle
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    • Profile picture of the author James Clark
      To the OP,

      For you to talk to us about Ethical Marketers is like "Carrot Top telling Lebron James how to play Basketball"

      Jimmy.
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    • Profile picture of the author MikeAmbrosio
      Originally Posted by ccmusicman View Post

      I've actually done this. Done this - I launched a WSO that taught them exactly how to build up a sustainable business.

      Can you guess the response? I don't even need to comment on it.
      Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

      Same with me. I've launched a couple of WSOs that merely taught newbies the ropes on how to get set up, a lot of technical stuff they're always asking about, how to do the niche research to choose a business niche, etc. etc. etc.

      Dismal FAILURE. It involved work with no promise of a Ferrari and an estate and hot babes hanging out. Just a boring business plan.
      You know why that is, right?

      Because people come to places like this every day looking for that easy way to riches. Most of the time it's promised in sales copy, but by and large many people fool themselves into believing that it's achievable. Heck, I have included myself in that group once.

      It's a vicious circle - over-hyped, crappy products are put out to feed the frenzy of those "lazy riches" mindset folks, who in turn buy them, never implement anything and then call the people who create them scammers, or unethical.

      Frankly, that term - "ethical marketer" - is about as big an overused cliche as Guru. It's become meaningless because it's slung around by pissed off people who bought a product and found that it's not the easy riches they were promised.

      And don't get me started on those who DO create and sell over-hyped garbage...

      Frankly I have gotten to the point where I market something to my list maybe once every 45 days - there's just not all that much out there that impresses me...


      Originally Posted by Nightengale View Post

      I don't know what you're talking about. The IM mentors I follow have the highest integrity and I've been following them for several years.

      Alexandria Brown (AliBrown.com) is my primary IM mentor. I started following her around 2005 and have been very happy with the products I've bought from her. I've followed her ascent to tremendous business success. She's "for real" and for those who ever doubted it, her success was validated when she was one of the millionaires featured on the last episode of "Secret Millionaire." (The producers had to validate her income claims AND she had to agree to give away $100,000 of her own money to be on the show.) I have the highest respect for her, her business, and her success.

      I also follow Carrie Wilkerson, AKA the Barefoot Executive (Barefoot-Executive.com). She also has the HIGHEST integrity and is completely authentic. I've been very happy with the products I've bought from her also. I even had the privilege of meeting her in person just 2 days ago in Orlando. She's exactly the same in person as she appears on her website and in her videos. Phenomenal lady!

      Sheri McConnell of the Smart Women's Institute of Entrepreneurial Learning (and formerly of the National Association of Women Writers), was my coach and mentor last year. (SmartWomenInstitute.com) She's very successful while staying in complete authenticity and integrity. I feel privileged to be one of her students and have been VERY happy with her products and services.

      She also co-published my book under her imprint.

      While I started out buying low-priced products from each of them, I have bought things from each of them which were well over $1,000 -- and worth every penny.

      I TOTALLY understand the frustration with hype, scams and products that just plain don't deliver. But I think this just underscores the need to pick your mentors and coaches very wisely. It DOESN'T mean that "everyone" in the IM space lacks integrity. While I DO understand the frustration, I get really annoyed when people make a blanket statement that "everyone" (meaning the IM gurus) are just full of hype and sell scams.

      If you've been in the IM space for any length of time and are still being taken by scams, then I say you need to look in the mirror. Maybe that sounds harsh, but YOU are responsible for who you listen to and buy from. Pick just one or two you can trust and then put your blinders on. Don't be jumping from one person to the next!

      If you're not sure who to listen to, come here for recommendations. We'll help. Some may be more suitable for you than others. But maybe it's time to get ruthless about who you listen to and buy from. There ARE successful people with integrity out there who will mentor you.

      Michelle

      Michelle - some very smart people you have aligned yourself with there What I think is important to point out is that I have known about or have followed some of the same people since back in 2005 and 2006. The fact that they are still going strong while not throwing out hyped-up products every third month should tell people something.



      Stop looking for the pipe-dreams and you'll start seeing the ethical marketers that everyone claims don't exist. The side benefit to that is, when people stop buying that crap, those who create them will either start creating good quality products, or they will wither away.

      Either way, it's a win for the rest of us.

      Mike

      P.S. Roger - How ya been? Long time no chat!
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      • Profile picture of the author HankTheCowDog
        Originally Posted by MikeAmbrosio View Post

        You know why that is, right?

        The side benefit to that is, when people stop buying that crap, those who create them will either start creating good quality products, or they will wither away.

        Either way, it's a win for the rest of us.

        That's kind of what I was thinking and the reason I decided to get into putting out some quality, useful stuff. Seems the time is ripe.

        I'm tired of reading 500 word articles about how to rebuild a V8 engine.

        I've also deduced this board is kinda like playing a game of chess, lol.
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        • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
          Chris,
          Why else do you all think that anti-guru feelings are at an all time high?
          As BigMike said, it's not. Not really. The challenge, aside from the scope issue, is that people use that word without having any real meaning for it. They hear about the evil 'gurus,' and they use the word to represent anyone who sells using tactics or techniques they don't personally find meet their preferences.

          For instance, I got an email from a subscriber recently who informed me, in no uncertain terms, that any sales letter that included a red headline or yellow highlighting was pitching a lie.

          Yes. Really.

          Why? Because some blogger who is trying to position him- or herself as a 'guru' in the traditional sense is claiming those things to be signs of evil. Rather than explaining to their readers how to recognize a probably fraudulent offer, or how to determine if the risk is worth the potential reward, they're offering easy, no-thought formulas. Exactly the sort of tactic they're saying is bad when used to sell a product.

          Then there are the folks who are inexperienced and desperate, who will buy anything that promises hope. It doesn't matter if the product delivers or not if they don't have the skills or understanding needed to make it work. They assume their failure is due to some fault in the product. Sometimes it is, but at least as often it's a lack of understanding on their part.

          And there are the cynics who try to develop credibility by shouting from the rooftops about how everyone else is crooked. They've always been part of the market, and always will be. Not everyone who talks about bad practices fits that mold, of course, but you want to look for something more than just opinions in their comments. Specifics that hold up to scrutiny are what's needed.

          There are a lot of crooks out there. No-one is going to dispute that. They're a small part of the market, but they exist and they do a lot of damage. Probably not as much, though, as people telling everyone the sky is falling, rather than how to spot the problem offers.

          Here's some basic advice on that topic:

          1: Ignore earnings claims. They may be true and they may not, but they have little to do with how much you will or won't make with any given product.

          2: Don't buy stuff you don't seriously intend to use.

          3: Don't spend money you can't afford to lose.

          4: Think about the skills you'll need in order to use a product. If you don't have the needed skills, either wait on the order or be clear with yourself that you're going to need to learn while you use it.

          5: Don't buy from blind ads. If the only thing they tell you about a product is what it isn't, skip it. You have no way of making an intelligent decision on whether or not you can use the thing properly.

          6: Look for reviews that get into specifics about the product, from people who've bought and used it. Empty comments, whether positive or negative, have no meaning. You don't know if they're real or not, and they're not helpful in either case.

          7: If there's no refund offered, see #3.

          8: Have a plan. If the product doesn't fit your plan, skip it.

          That last will be the hardest for some people. It's probably the best protection you've got, though. If you have a clear idea of what you're doing, it's a lot easier to pick the offers that will help you get it done. And having a plan suggests that you know what skills are needed, and in what ways, to make those things happen.

          Note that none of this requires that you know in advance which offers are good or not. It just means you'll be a lot more aware of what's happening when you consider an offer, which will cut down your chances of getting ripped off (or just making a poor choice) by rather a lot.


          Paul
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          • Profile picture of the author James Clark
            Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

            Chris,As BigMike said, it's not. Not really. The challenge, aside from the scope issue, is that people use that word without having any real meaning for it. They hear about the evil 'gurus,' and they use the word to represent anyone who sells using tactics or techniques they don't personally find meet their preferences.

            For instance, I got an email from a subscriber recently who informed me, in no uncertain terms, that any sales letter that included a red headline or yellow highlighting was pitching a lie.

            Yes. Really.

            Why? Because some blogger who is trying to position him- or herself as a 'guru' in the traditional sense is claiming those things to be signs of evil. Rather than explaining to their readers how to recognize a probably fraudulent offer, or how to determine if the risk is worth the potential reward, they're offering easy, no-thought formulas. Exactly the sort of tactic they're saying is bad when used to sell a product.

            Then there are the folks who are inexperienced and desperate, who will buy anything that promises hope. It doesn't matter if the product delivers or not if they don't have the skills or understanding needed to make it work. They assume their failure is due to some fault in the product. Sometimes it is, but at least as often it's a lack of understanding on their part.

            And there are the cynics who try to develop credibility by shouting from the rooftops about how everyone else is crooked. They've always been part of the market, and always will be. Not everyone who talks about bad practices fits that mold, of course, but you want to look for something more than just opinions in their comments. Specifics that hold up to scrutiny are what's needed.

            There are a lot of crooks out there. No-one is going to dispute that. They're a small part of the market, but they exist and they do a lot of damage. Probably not as much, though, as people telling everyone the sky is falling, rather than how to spot the problem offers.

            Here's some basic advice on that topic:

            1: Ignore earnings claims. They may be true and they may not, but they have little to do with how much you will or won't make with any given product.

            2: Don't buy stuff you don't seriously intend to use.

            3: Don't spend money you can't afford to lose.

            4: Think about the skills you'll need in order to use a product. If you don't have the needed skills, either wait on the order or be clear with yourself that you're going to need to learn while you use it.

            5: Don't buy from blind ads. If the only thing they tell you about a product is what it isn't, skip it. You have no way of making an intelligent decision on whether or not you can use the thing properly.

            6: Look for reviews that get into specifics about the product, from people who've bought and used it. Empty comments, whether positive or negative, have no meaning. You don't know if they're real or not, and they're not helpful in either case.

            7: If there's no refund offered, see #3.

            8: Have a plan. If the product doesn't fit your plan, skip it.

            That last will be the hardest for some people. It's probably the best protection you've got, though. If you have a clear idea of what you're doing, it's a lot easier to pick the offers that will help you get it done. And having a plan suggests that you know what skills are needed, and in what ways, to make those things happen.

            Note that none of this requires that you know in advance which offers are good or not. It just means you'll be a lot more aware of what's happening when you consider an offer, which will cut down your chances of getting ripped off (or just making a poor choice) by rather a lot.


            Paul
            Hey Paul,

            I can top that. While having my coffee this morning I received an email trying to sell me an 80,000 list of emails for $2.00. Where are these people coming from?(LOL) You know what, I'm going to take the rest of the day off and go play Golf.

            Bye!

            Jimmy.
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  • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Banks
    I agree, definitely it is going into the gutters fast. I just started my Make money online blog and plan to follow the path more like Smart Passive income. I HATE all the hype, and my blog is just going to be genuine knowledge, tips and case studies.
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    • Profile picture of the author mmixon
      There may be more ethical marketers than the un-ethical crooked ones, Or it may be the other way around. I'm not sure which. One thing I do know for sure, is the few big mouthed crooks, that sell anything to anyone, and it doesn't matter if it works or not as long as they have a sweet sales page with endorsements lol.

      Anyway, the few bad ones ruin it for everyone else.

      But I think it is the same in most any industry, the crooks make it harder for the honest people to make a living.
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  • Hey,

    Here are some people that you can trust. I know all of them because one of them I went to HS with and we were buddies. So please take my word for it. Im being honest and full of goodwill when I say to search for : Paul Counts, Jeff Wellman, Eric Holmlund, Liz Tomey, and Keith Wellman. They all create amazing content packed material, and offer very reliable support. These people are some of the best in the business! Check them out for yourself. And always remember this: Thoughts + Feelings = Manifestation!

    Peace and Love,

    Anthony Spencer

    P.S. Build Your List !!!
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  • Profile picture of the author lesterlim85
    I received a comment on my blog this morning from someone who asks me to get a life and stop trying to sell low quality stuffs to the people in Warrior Forum and go out there for some proper marketing.

    Firstly, I don't know him at all so I do not know why he wanna make such a big fuss over my blog post (sayng that I wanna launch my 1st product in WF).

    Secondly, I love WF for the vast resources I have gain from reading in the forum, getting valuable shares in the war room, and met many like-minded marketers.

    Thirdly, hello? I haven't even launch my WSO, so how do you think it is a bad quality product without even seeing it for yourself? I take pride in myself to provide quality work as far as I can and don't like to entertain such generalisation from someone who is an unknown (to me at least).

    The poster might be a hater of WF because he has suffered some "injustice" in the past. Who knows? But from what see, there are quite a number of sites which are spreading hatred for WF due to many so-called unethical marketers going around promoting whatever stuffs they can promote to earn big bucks.

    Whatever it is, I still don't think WF is "evil", and agree that in every industry there bound to be blacksheeps around who spoil the reputation of the good guys in the community. Read Paul's post in #40 and you can make a lot of sense out of it.

    To everyone's success,
    Lester
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  • Profile picture of the author RickDayle
    robsterhews, I can agree with at least some of what you say.

    I've only been a member here for a relatively few months, so cannot speak to what went before, but I've also noticed a lot of WSOs and other offers that are less than I would expect for what I expected for members of the Warriors Forum. Lately, there has been an increasing emphasis on blind ads selling mystery products that have little of no chance of meeting the hyped-up claims.

    Regarding the old '80's ploy of the one line classified ad selling the process of placing a classified ad to make money, I used to run classified ads in the early 90's in California that offered a report on ways to "slow down your Utility Meter". Of course, it provided a two or three page writeup of ways to reduce your energy usage through legal means, which did, afterall, "slow down their utility meter". I did get a few unhappy responses that complained that I didn't provide physical methods to damage/change the calibration of their meters (which would have been illegal) but overall, I got more positive responses than negative. This was in the classified ad and postal mail times, so it was fairly unusual to get a response at all unless it was negative, due the the cost of postage. Actually, as I think about it, it may be time to re-write it as a "report" and sell it to the save money niches, particularly as the cost of energy has increased so much the past couple of years.

    Relative to other points of your initial post, I've found that if the ad copy seems too good to be true, it probably is, and should be avoided for the prudent. Given a large enough bankroll, it would be worth buying most of the current crop of offerings, just from the perspective of "education". I know that after reasonable reflection, I can honestly say that I have recieved some benefit from nearly every product I've purchased, though several of them have only provided an example of what not to do.
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  • Profile picture of the author theemperor
    Originally Posted by robsterhews View Post

    • If you truly have a "super secret" technique you can exploit, we all know you will not give it away or sell it. Why would you? Instead you would jump on the opportunity and do the best you could with it, as we all would. Why would anyone give these "gold digging" secrets away?"
    Think "McDonalds". There is your answer. Leverage through franchise.
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  • Profile picture of the author sloanjim
    to be fair whre there is money to be made there will always be shisters...it's the way of the word, and is not just in IM. Try stocks/forex/banking/Insurance/car sales...every bizz!

    Banks in the UK just got hammered for miss selling insurance. An electric company just got fined massively for telling lies etc....Look at nice old Bernie Manderoff.. Sharks are everywhere.
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  • Profile picture of the author Common
    Why would/should you be flamed for standing up to say what you feel is right? Just worried that you would be attacked for standing up! People only attack to defend themselves or in other words if there is something to hide or lets say protect, shall we?
    And the number of posts?? Well that does not necessarily mean anything really!
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  • Profile picture of the author dagaul101
    Nicely said, there is always that temptation with many IM to exaggerate claims, or as they say in IM circles "fake it till you make it", it's unfortunate but doesn't come as a surprise when everyone is on the bandwagon, trying to make cash from the same source
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Rob Howard, who is one of the most wonderful and ethical people I know here,
      said it better than I ever could in a million years.

      So I'll just add this, point blank and bluntly.

      Screw the worthless post that started this thread.
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    • Profile picture of the author David McKee
      As in all things in business, any business, there are good and there are bad. The bad sinks to the bottom, where it belongs, and the good continues to thrive and grow.

      Say what you will about MicroSoft for example, but regardless of what perceived "evil" they were - people liked and used their products and they as a business grew. Others argued that Apple was a better machine, but the buyers did not care.

      Now, the situation is reversed and MicroSoft is fading, while Apple sits on the throne MS once occupied.

      This is true for all things in business and is true in IM. Those who consistently offer excellent service, will stay on top, until someone does it better then they do or they stop offering consistent excellence of service.

      It is that simple, and it will not change. You can bank on it - we warriors do.

      -DTM
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  • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
    Originally Posted by robsterhews View Post

    I know I am going to get flamed for this, but the time has come and I need to say what needs to be said.

    • If you truly have a "super secret" technique you can exploit, we all know you will not give it away or sell it. Why would you? Instead you would jump on the opportunity and do the best you could with it, as we all would. Why would anyone give these "gold digging" secrets away?"
    I understand why you would say that, and you're not the first, but you should also understand that this is YOUR reality and not necessarily one that applies to everyone else.

    I've shared things here many times that were working well for me - as soon as I found them working.

    Why would I do that? Because I do not have a scarcity mindset. My own success is not a function of what other people are doing. I don't care about competition - no-one will truly be doing everything I do because they are not me and do not have my motivations.

    Since I love helping people who help themselves and I don't care about competition - your assumptions just don't apply to me.

    If I was all about the money and on a mission to make my own success and not care about other people then I'm sure your statement would be true - but that's not the case.

    One thing you should know about this WF community is that it's full of all types of people and while there are a lot of successful people here, that doesn't mean that sharing of successful strategies is a rare commodity.

    I've shared just about everything that has ever made me money. As soon as I really understood that investing in silver was a massive opportunity - I wrote a book about it to share with others why that was so that as many people as possible could benefit from that knowledge.

    We're not all out just for ourselves and looking to keep our secrets locked up. I believe knowledge is something that should flow and be passed on - not kept.

    Andy
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    • Profile picture of the author Gaz Cooper
      WOW

      I have to say that there are some high and mighty warriors these days, and I also have to say the warrior forum has changed tremendously since way back in the day, when warriors, would welcome new warriors.

      You could come here as a newbie and be WELCOMED instead of these days being chastised by those that have Huge post counts that think they are the dogs bollocks and scare newcomers away with there higher than mighty posts.

      Just because someone has a few posts dont mean they are new to Im, and they have a right to their opinion instead of being ganged up on.

      It comes over here, as some sort of inside click that dare anyone new mention the truth, they are shot down with a barrage of attacks by those that have been here for donkeys years and are less than welcoming to newbies with an opinion GOD FORBID

      Lets try to get back to the warrior forum of the late 90's early 2000 and welcome everyone with open arms instead of thinking you are high and mighty just cause you have a 1000 posts.

      The Warrior Forum of old was way better than what it has become.

      Gaz Cooper
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      • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
        Banned
        Originally Posted by GazCooperOnline View Post

        WOW

        I have to say that there are some high and mighty warriors these days, and I also have to say the warrior forum has changed tremendously since way back in the day, when warriors, would welcome new warriors.
        Actually, you are wrong. This forum is very helpful and welcoming to newbies. Just what kind of response do you expect when someone comes into a marketing forum, full of people who work their butts off to deliver quality to their customers and who have never scammed anyone out of a penny and they make a blanket statement " Ethical Marketers - You're Joking, Right?"

        Actually, I felt the response was both polite and measured considering what it could have been. Yeah, so a lot of us disagree with him. Don't make a controversial post if you can't take the disagreement.

        Stating his opinion makes him truthful. Stating ours makes us high and mighty.

        W h a t e v e r
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        • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
          Gaz,
          The Warrior Forum of old was way better than what it has become.
          I remember the WF of old. It had far fewer members, and disagreements were much more... "animated." That was expected, under the theory that it's better to have one's ideas tested and proven than to wander around trying to make something work based on a flawed notion.

          Things have changed here a bit, but not quite the way you're describing. We get a lot more people coming in now in a week than we did back then in several months. All those people have the same concerns, hopes, fears, confusions, preconceptions, desires and tendencies the folks back then did. They make the same mistakes, pose the same questions, and generally do mostly all the same things newer members did in 97 and 98.

          We also have a lot more members who've been here for multiple years, and who've seen it all before. It's easy for those folks to forget that the new folks are still just that ... new folks. They will always make the same mistakes. It's part of being new, after all.

          The more experienced members get annoyed when they see yet another dozen people coming in and demanding the forum be run their way, or spamming affiliate links, or just acting like they owned the place. This is especially true of those who post regularly and try to explain the use of forums to the recent immigrants.

          If you let yourself forget that, it just gets bloody old after a while.

          I agree with you that being new to the forum doesn't mean you're new to marketing. It doesn't tell us anything about a person's intelligence or their skills or anything else like that. It certainly doesn't tell us anything about them as a human being. But there is one thing that being new does tell us: That person hasn't yet done the things that get you credibility as a member of this group.

          They haven't asked or answered a ton of questions, or helped clean up the spam, or walked another member through any sort of learning process. They've got an account, but they haven't earned anything beyond that as it relates to this forum.

          I was here "back in the day." I remember how people got treated when they came in with guns blazing and said stuff like was said in the OP. And it wasn't anything like "nice and respectful." They got blasted with more heat than I've seen one person get here in quite a while.

          Of course, we couldn't just plug in the cable modem and turn on the computer to get access. We had to configure the software and the modem ourselves, or pay a tech to do it. And we paid for membership, which meant waiting for the check to be delivered to Allen via postal mail. You had to want to be here, and have a little patience to make it happen.

          Different group, different standards. I'm not saying I'd go back to what it was back then, but I remember it well. And it wasn't anything like you're suggesting it was. Not for people who started out with a challenge verging on insult.

          Are the OP's points valid in some cases? Sure. Of course. Do they hold true to the extent he proposes? Not as far as I can see, and I have a pretty broad view of the place. Should he expect to be allowed to say this stuff without expecting a response from the group he's engaging?

          Nope. Not in any forum I've ever seen.


          Paul
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      • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
        Originally Posted by GazCooperOnline View Post

        WOW

        I have to say that there are some high and mighty warriors these days, and I also have to say the warrior forum has changed tremendously since way back in the day, when warriors, would welcome new warriors.

        You could come here as a newbie and be WELCOMED instead of these days being chastised by those that have Huge post counts that think they are the dogs bollocks and scare newcomers away with there higher than mighty posts.

        Just because someone has a few posts dont mean they are new to Im, and they have a right to their opinion instead of being ganged up on.

        It comes over here, as some sort of inside click that dare anyone new mention the truth, they are shot down with a barrage of attacks by those that have been here for donkeys years and are less than welcoming to newbies with an opinion GOD FORBID

        Lets try to get back to the warrior forum of the late 90's early 2000 and welcome everyone with open arms instead of thinking you are high and mighty just cause you have a 1000 posts.

        The Warrior Forum of old was way better than what it has become.

        Gaz Cooper
        Wow - I must be seeing something different to you.

        The WF is amazingly welcoming to newcomers - it always has been. I've been here for the last 10 years too so I know what it used to be like aswell. There were a lot less people here then and a lot less 'Gurus', but there are now also even more really nice people.

        You must be missing all the cool stuff that goes on here and the amazing people helping others every single day.

        Post count has nothing to do with how people here get treated. If you're seeing some form of clique - that's in your head.

        It's at least as cool here as it was before - there's just a bit more noise aswell.

        I meet a lot of warriors offline and they always tell me how kind and helpful people here have been to them - we have a reputation for lack of BS and lots of really good information.

        I'm sorry for you if you can't see that.

        Perhaps you're mistaking people spending the time to make their responses thoughtful and useful (and maybe even the use of good grammar) as "high and mighty".

        If that's how it makes you feel - I'm pretty sure that's your baggage doing the creating.

        The OP started his post with "I'm probably going to get flamed for this" and obviously knew he was saying something that some people would not agree with, so why is his expected response somehow ultimately offensive to you?

        The other thing you may not have noticed is that there's more spam posting going on than there ever used to be and lots of people coming here (way more than ever before) in order to try and abuse the members and con them out of their money. So if the response is to be sceptical until someone shows that they're genuine that's probably understandable, but that's nothing like being nasty to newbies.

        I've seen plenty of newcomers make thoughtful and insightful posts and quickly become perceived as experts in this community. Newcomers or not, post count high or low is irrelevant to most people here and you get treated in accordance with how you treat others.

        If you're looking for negativity - you'll easily be able to find it. If you're looking for positivity - you'll find it in spades.
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        • Profile picture of the author Gaz Cooper
          Wow - I must be seeing something different to you.

          Yes I must be, but sometimes you have to take the blinkers off to see


          You must be missing all the cool stuff that goes on here and the amazing people helping others every single day.

          Nope I dont miss a thing, but I am also immune to the bullys on here unlike some newbies that come here

          Post count has nothing to do with how people here get treated. If you're seeing some form of clique - that's in your head.

          No I disagree (I am allowed right ?) there is definately a disdane to new posters on here and those with few posts if they say the wrong thing or touch on taboo subjects.

          It's at least as cool here as it was before - there's just a bit more noise aswell.

          I disagree in a sense, YES there is some fantastic info available here but if you think its as friendly as it was 10 years ago you may be suffering from amnesia

          I meet a lot of warriors offline and they always tell me how kind and helpful people here have been to them - we have a reputation for lack of BS and lots of really good information.

          You see you are using the word WE as if your in some sort of exclusive seperate click, and that is my point exactly and it has proven my point.

          Perhaps you're mistaking people spending the time to make their responses thoughtful and useful (and maybe even the use of good grammar) as "high and mighty".

          There you go attacking again, kinda proving my point yet again, people cant have an opinion here without being belittled (is that good grammar if not my apologies Ajarn)

          If that's how it makes you feel - I'm pretty sure that's your baggage doing the creating.

          Its plain to see I travel light

          The OP started his post with "I'm probably going to get flamed for this" and obviously knew he was saying something that some people would not agree with, so why is his expected response somehow ultimately offensive to you?

          I agree with him in a sense way too much scamming going on and way too many people backing the scammers only problem its its a TABOO subject, people have to be quiet as it going to cost people lost income.

          The other thing you may not have noticed is that there's more spam posting going on than there ever used to be and lots of people coming here (way more than ever before) in order to try and abuse the members and con them out of their money. So if the response is to be sceptical until someone shows that they're genuine that's probably understandable, but that's nothing like being nasty to newbies.

          I agree with you on this point but there is a difference between being sceptical and being inviting without pre judging first.
          .

          If you're looking for negativity - you'll easily be able to find it. If you're looking for positivity - you'll find it in spades

          I am a very positive person but I call it like I see it and I have said my piece and stand by it.

          Gaz Cooper
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          • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
            Originally Posted by GazCooperOnline View Post


            Post count has nothing to do with how people here get treated. If you're seeing some form of clique - that's in your head.

            No I disagree (I am allowed right ?) there is definately a disdane to new posters on here and those with few posts if they say the wrong thing or touch on taboo subjects.
            This is not my experience. If you can be specific about who you're talking about then maybe I would agree, but just saying that 'THE FORUM' has a problem with newbies is obviously wrong.

            Originally Posted by GazCooperOnline View Post

            I meet a lot of warriors offline and they always tell me how kind and helpful people here have been to them - we have a reputation for lack of BS and lots of really good information.

            You see you are using the word WE as if your in some sort of exclusive seperate click, and that is my point exactly and it has proven my point.
            The WE is the members of the WF - you have to register so everyone who is a member is part of that 'we'. I have no idea why you keep thinking that it means some sort of sub-set of the membership who are a special click.

            I think you're seeing what you want to see. You're doing a great job of putting in non-existent meaning into my words.

            But I guess if you think there's a click then you'll be looking for things that support that, and create them if they're not there.

            I can tell you for sure that I'm not part of any click. I've been coming here for years and I've met hundreds of members in person offline but there's certainly not some group of special ones that I'm part of. So again, I'd be interested in who exactly you think IS in a click. I'm pretty sure what you're seeing is just people with mutual respect and similar views responding in a similar way to certain behaviour. It's a cause and effect thing - nothing to do with clicks.

            Originally Posted by GazCooperOnline View Post

            Perhaps you're mistaking people spending the time to make their responses thoughtful and useful (and maybe even the use of good grammar) as "high and mighty".

            There you go attacking again, kinda proving my point yet again, people cant have an opinion here without being belittled (is that good grammar if not my apologies Ajarn)
            Again - you've turned what was an impassionate and (so I thought) logical suggestion about why you're attributing things to people falsely but you've gone and done it to my response too.

            If you 'feel' attacked I can assure you that it's all you. People ask tough questions of each other all the time here - I've been called out on comments lots of times. Do I feel attacked? No - people have a right to question assumptions or statements I make. In the same way that I could decide you are attacking me by finding / attributing negativity to my responses when there is none. Do I ? No. You have a right to your opinion.

            The fact that I disagree with you is not an attack, it's just a difference of opinion - that happens a lot here. It's not a bad thing.

            Originally Posted by GazCooperOnline View Post

            The OP started his post with "I'm probably going to get flamed for this" and obviously knew he was saying something that some people would not agree with, so why is his expected response somehow ultimately offensive to you?

            I agree with him in a sense way too much scamming going on and way too many people backing the scammers only problem its its a TABOO subject, people have to be quiet as it going to cost people lost income.
            I haven't seen that so I can't comment. The only subjects I'm aware are not allowed are attacks on people or negative/abusive things that serve no positive purpose in the forum. I'm not sure I know exactly everything that is contained in that but that's why the forum has mods.
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            • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
              Gaz,
              Now the fact that you want to attack me, for simply stating a fact IMHO shows exactly what I am talking about.
              Attacking an idea is not the same as attacking a person. Confusing the two things is a major reason for a lot of unnecessary arguments, here and in every other forum in which I've ever participated.


              Paul
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          • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
            Banned
            Originally Posted by GazCooperOnline View Post

            Yes I must be, but sometimes you have to take the blinkers off to see

            Nope I dont miss a thing, but I am also immune to the bullys on here unlike some newbies that come here

            No I disagree (I am allowed right ?) there is definately a disdane to new posters on here and those with few posts if they say the wrong thing or touch on taboo subjects.

            I disagree in a sense, YES there is some fantastic info available here but if you think its as friendly as it was 10 years ago you may be suffering from amnesia

            You see you are using the word WE as if your in some sort of exclusive seperate click, and that is my point exactly and it has proven my point.

            There you go attacking again, kinda proving my point yet again, people cant have an opinion here without being belittled (is that good grammar if not my apologies Ajarn)

            If that's how it makes you feel - I'm pretty sure that's your baggage doing the creating.

            I agree with him in a sense way too much scamming going on and way too many people backing the scammers only problem its its a TABOO subject, people have to be quiet as it going to cost people lost income.

            I am a very positive person but I call it like I see it and I have said my piece and stand by it.

            Gaz Cooper

            lol... really, who cares what it was like in the good old days? The good old days are gone. I wasn't here then, so I've enjoyed the forum only since 2007. I've been a member of a few forums, but none as long as this one and I never really connected and made as many friends as I have on this one.

            Friends. A clique perhaps. Not even close. If there's a clique, it's a secret clique and they didn't invite me. But there are a lot of good people here that I trust and respect, and sometimes they agree with me and sometimes they disagree with me. That's surely expected in a forum and is pretty much the norm in most forums, only in some, there's a lot of flaming going on rather than courteous disagreement.

            You seem to think that the majority of posters on this thread, or any thread for that matter indicate a secret society .. a clique. In reality, it's called consensus. The majority of people appear to agree that the OP was a tad insulting and we don't agree that the majority of marketers are scammers.

            You may or may not believe it, but we didn't have a secret meeting sealed with a secret handshake before posting our opinions. We - as in We, the members of the Warrior Forum, just bumbled in here and blurted out our opinions as WE normally do, and as both you and the OP also did. Or was there a conspiracy involved there. Did you and the OP get together and decide to be offensive?
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            • Profile picture of the author Tina Golden
              Originally Posted by lazyfrog View Post

              When you are in the money making game/business you have to make money by any means. And you will not make money if you always think about morality and absoluteness.
              That's just...

              Sad.
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      • Profile picture of the author Fernando Veloso
        Originally Posted by GazCooperOnline View Post

        WOW

        I have to say that there are some high and mighty warriors these days, and I also have to say the warrior forum has changed tremendously since way back in the day, when warriors, would welcome new warriors.
        Perhaps most of us now wait to see what gives, cause a high percentage of folks coming here are just nut jobs trying to scam other newbies?

        Think about it for a second.

        You could come here as a newbie and be WELCOMED instead of these days being chastised by those that have Huge post counts that think they are the dogs bollocks and scare newcomers away with there higher than mighty posts.
        Read above and add this: most of the folks posting in this thread are among the most polite and friendly users over WF. Heck!! They even had time to answer here - instead of focusing ONLY on making money.

        Just because someone has a few posts dont mean they are new to Im, and they have a right to their opinion instead of being ganged up on.
        Ouch. You see a gang, I see smart and objective answers.

        It comes over here, as some sort of inside click that dare anyone new mention the truth, they are shot down with a barrage of attacks by those that have been here for donkeys years and are less than welcoming to newbies with an opinion GOD FORBID
        Again, where you see trouble, I see informed and objective answers. Personally I think this thread alone is a HUGE lesson for those willing to read and understand what is said.

        Lets try to get back to the warrior forum of the late 90's early 2000 and welcome everyone with open arms instead of thinking you are high and mighty just cause you have a 1000 posts.

        The Warrior Forum of old was way better than what it has become
        Let's all get our time machine and use it also to remove all the crowd from Supertubos beach. Cause it's a damn nervous break down everytime I go surfing, it's always crowded with kooks doing everything they are NOT supposed to do when surfing.

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  • Profile picture of the author Gaz Cooper
    No actually you are wrong,

    If you hung out at some newbie forums you would know they are Sh@#$T scared of coming to this forum for fear of being attacked and chastised for having an opinion.

    Now I find Wf very helpful but I was here in late 90's early 2000 and its changed a lot since then and has become very different since those days almost a click, where as in the old days everyone was welcome that is no longer the case.

    Instead of explaining to a misplaced newbies the concensus is to chastise them and attack them and if you dont think that is the case you need to spend a bit more time outside the warrior forum listening to what people have to say.

    WF is great but not for the sensitive newbies too many harsh word here for those trying to get there feet wet but also its a welath of information if you can avoid the bullys.

    JMHO of course

    Gaz Cooper
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    • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
      Originally Posted by GazCooperOnline View Post

      Now I find Wf very helpful but I was here in late 90's early 2000 and its changed a lot since then and has become very different since those days almost a click, where as in the old days everyone was welcome that is no longer the case.

      Instead of explaining to a misplaced newbies the concensus is to chastise them and attack them and if you dont think that is the case you need to spend a bit more time outside the warrior forum listening to what people have to say.

      That's just wrong.

      Sorry but you're turning a few bitching people into a massive generalisation about the forum.

      There is no 'click' here. If you think there is then you're mistaken. The "ganging up" you refer to is just people having a consensus of opinion on something.

      To say people with an opinion can't come here is just BS - In my experience it's actually welcomed. People love to hear new ideas and perspectives - it's how many of use learn new things.

      What is NOT tolerated is abusive posts, foul-language, personal attacks etc....

      So if a newbie came here and started bitching about another forum - do you think all the members here would join in "yeah you're right - they're a bunch of clicky know-it-alls!" ????

      No! It's not the style of this forum.

      If you want to hang out at forums that revel in bitching about other forums then that's up to you.

      There are a lot of reasons some people hate this forum, but they're all personal perspectives - not a generalisation that applies by default.

      I've been attacked in this forum. I've had really nasty things said to me. I've had posts deleted that I spent ages putting together to help others. I've been insulted.

      What is my response? To go bitching around other forums looking for people to feel sorry for me and join the bitching? No....

      Why?

      Because despite the minority of idiots that do come here - the core of this community is solid and amazingly positive. I've been amazed on many occasions by the feeling and giving of fellow members here.

      When I recently started a thread giving some money to anyone who asked for it - 80% of the people who asked for it actually wanted to give it to someone else and in some cases just asked me to give it to that person directly.

      This community is amazing - sure it's not perfect but that's because it's so welcoming to new people and that openess sometimes gets abused.

      Anyone who has a bad experience here and runs off telling others how mistreated they've been is creating a much worse reality than the one they started with.

      At the very worst, if you don't like the way you're treated you could look to see what may cause that response and just don't come here if you really can't feel good about it. There's no value at all in going off somewhere else to bitch about it - that just continues your pain - how does that make sense?

      There are a lot of 'victims' in the IM arena and if you come here looking to talk trash about others and start a pity party - you're probably in the wrong forum for sure.
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      • Profile picture of the author Gaz Cooper
        Originally Posted by Andyhenry View Post

        That's just wrong.

        Sorry but you're turning a few bitching people into a massive generalisation about the forum.

        There is no 'click' here. If you think there is then you're mistaken. The "ganging up" you refer to is just people having a consensus of opinion on something.

        To say people with an opinion can't come here is just BS - In my experience it's actually welcomed. People love to hear new ideas and perspectives - it's how many of use learn new things.

        What is NOT tolerated is abusive posts, foul-language, personal attacks etc....

        So if a newbie came here and started bitching about another forum - do you think all the members here would join in "yeah you're right - they're a bunch of clicky know-it-alls!" ????

        No! It's not the style of this forum.

        If you want to hang out at forums that revel in bitching about other forums then that's up to you.

        There are a lot of reasons some people hate this forum, but they're all personal perspectives - not a generalisation that applies by default.

        I've been attacked in this forum. I've had really nasty things said to me. I've had posts deleted that I spent ages putting together to help others. I've been insulted.

        What is my response? To go bitching around other forums looking for people to feel sorry for me and join the bitching? No....

        Why?

        Because despite the minority of idiots that do come here - the core of this community is solid and amazingly positive. I've been amazed on many occasions by the feeling and giving of fellow members here.

        When I recently started a thread giving some money to anyone who asked for it - 80% of the people who asked for it actually wanted to give it to someone else and in some cases just asked me to give it to that person directly.

        This community is amazing - sure it's not perfect but that's because it's so welcoming to new people and that openess sometimes gets abused.

        Anyone who has a bad experience here and runs off telling others how mistreated they've been is creating a much worse reality than the one they started with.

        At the very worst, if you don't like the way you're treated you could look to see what may cause that response and just don't come here if you really can't feel good about it. There's no value at all in going off somewhere else to bitch about it - that just continues your pain - how does that make sense?

        There are a lot of 'victims' in the IM arena and if you come here looking to talk trash about others and start a pity party - you're probably in the wrong forum for sure.
        See now again you have lost the plot, I challenge you to find a post outside of WF of me bitching about it. It dont exist, but I have read many a post where people have in members areas, expressed how they have been attacked on here and dont want to come here because of the way they were treated for making a NEWBIE MISTAKE that we all made when we first started.

        You seem to direct your posting to me I am no victim lol (have been a few times) but I have been in this for many years but I only recently came back here and I SEE A BIG DIFFERENCE FROM THE OLD DAYS

        Now the fact that you want to attack me, for simply stating a fact IMHO shows exactly what I am talking about.

        You can disagree and we can agree to disagree but you cant shove your opinion down my throat just as I cant do the same to you.

        Gaz Cooper
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        • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
          Originally Posted by GazCooperOnline View Post

          You seem to direct your posting to me I am no victim lol (have been a few times) but I have been in this for many years but I only recently came back here and I SEE A BIG DIFFERENCE FROM THE OLD DAYS

          Now the fact that you want to attack me, for simply stating a fact IMHO shows exactly what I am talking about.

          You can disagree and we can agree to disagree but you cant shove your opinion down my throat just as I cant do the same to you.

          Gaz Cooper
          Ok - I give in. You're determined to take any discussion on your points as a personal attack on you.

          I guess I now see why you're saying the things you are. If you think I'm also attacking you then I guess that matches your reality.

          What I've been doing (and ALL I've been doing) is responding to your criticisms and sharing that your experiences/statements are not true for everyone.

          If telling you that my experience is different is going to be called an attack then I respectfully withdraw from communicating with you. The last thing I want is to give you another reason to think this forum is worse than it is.

          I'll put you on my ignore list so that I can't accidentally respond to your posts and give you reason to feel attacked again.

          Sorry to have proven your point or made you feel less than great. Good luck with your efforts.

          Andy
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      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
        Andy,
        So if a newbie came here and started bitching about another forum - do you think all the members here would join in "yeah you're right - they're a bunch of clicky know-it-alls!" ????
        Wouldn't do them much good. We don't allow bashing of other forums here. That stuff just gets deleted. The fact that someone else runs their place differently is seen as a good thing. It makes room for all sorts of people to find the type of place that suits their personal style.
        you're turning a few bitching people into a massive generalisation about the forum.
        This is a huge point.

        The vast majority of people who join this group and post never have the kind of unpleasant experience Gaz describes. But that doesn't get noticed, any more than it's noteworthy when someone's house doesn't burn down, or someone doesn't get bitten by a dog.

        The OP didn't get blasted because he's entirely wrong. He isn't. He got blasted because the title of the thread was offensive and the first sentence of his post was a challenge. That seems to have strongly colored the way the rest of his post was read by some folks. And that's normal. Not necessarily good, but normal.

        It is never wise to forget the angry villager rule...


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        • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
          Gaz,
          there is definately a disdane to new posters on here and those with few posts if they say the wrong thing or touch on taboo subjects.
          There is usually a reason for certain subjects to be "taboo." You will notice, though, that he didn't hit any of them. His post is still here, despite the presence of several moderators in the thread.

          Look at the title of this thread. If that doesn't look like an accusation against the group (and marketers in general) to you, you're not seeing as clearly as you might believe.

          The rest is a normal function of a group responding to a perceived insult. If you throw rocks at a crowd, you can expect some of them to throw them back, yes?


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          • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
            Originally Posted by GazCooperOnline View Post


            Now the fact that you want to attack me, for simply stating a fact IMHO shows exactly what I am talking about.

            You can disagree and we can agree to disagree but you cant shove your opinion down my throat just as I cant do the same to you.
            Hi Gaz,

            Please don't take this the wrong way but I've just read this little exchange.

            I'm slightly confused that your original post wasn't in any way "attacking" but Andy's were? As far as I could see they were both written in the same way. Also with respect I believe you began this by trying to shove your opinion down other peoples throats...

            It comes over here, as some sort of inside click that dare anyone new mention the truth, they are shot down with a barrage of attacks by those that have been here for donkeys years and are less than welcoming to newbies with an opinion GOD FORBID
            Heated discussions often happen, this may have been one of them but that's the nature of a forum. I very rarely see people getting a hard time here and if they do, it's unlikely they were randomly attacked for no reason.

            I've not been here a great deal of time at all but I can tell you, with one or two exceptions, I've experienced meeting some of the most helpful people I've met in my life.

            there is definately a disdane to new posters on here and those with few posts if they say the wrong thing or touch on taboo subjects.
            So everyone with over a 1000 posts has a disdain for new members? Hardly Gaz.

            As for taboo subjects, that's pretty broad too and I'm not attacking you Gaz, I just don't think what you've said, a vast majority of the time, exists.
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  • Profile picture of the author lazyfrog
    When you are in the money making game/business you have to make money by any means. And you will not make money if you always think about morality and absoluteness.

    My point is not as simple as it seems.
    Simply because so called Ethical Marketeers consider the price of their product is just, but according to a poor country man like that of Indonesia, Pakistan or India it is exorbitant.
    So for that third world fellow your just price seems like loot.

    Coming to your hype part.
    Come on you have seen hyper hyped movie trailers and wasted your money in the theaters, didn't you.
    Then you have read biased reviews too about the movies.


    So my point being consider this IM business to be any other offline market and you will see that people who can do are doing it and people who can not are just complaining about the ethics.
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    • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
      Originally Posted by lazyfrog View Post

      When you are in the money making game/business you have to make money by any means.
      I agree with Tina. By any means, means you'll make a lot of enemies.

      but according to a poor country man like that of Indonesia, Pakistan or India it is exorbitant.
      So for that third world fellow your just price seems like loot.
      I appreciate this point, but it's also a "Is the glass half full or half empty" statement. The price may be high to them but what if one of those poor countrymen sold those products? Doesn't it then become an opportunity?

      I have a Warrior that I helped out in India. He makes between $500 -$700 a month. Not much to me but a huge amount for him. It's all relative.
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  • Profile picture of the author omk
    There are a lot of ethical marketers. The bad or shady people will always be around, just like in the real world.

    You have to use common sense and trust your gut when dealing with people. So it's the same as in the real world. For some reason, when people deal with other people online, they tend to leave their common sense at home.

    There are no real secrets to Internet Marketing. Everything is out there, freely available. The real secrets are how you go about it and what methods you combine.

    Each person is unique. I can honestly show others how to optimize certain tasks and ramp up their earnings.

    There are plenty of tricks, methods and so called secrets that I personally show others, that in no way can threaten my own earnings.

    The internet is so huge, there are so many methods and ways of combining money making techniques and so much traffic online --- there will always be room for everybody.

    We haven't even tapped 50% of the money making potential of the internet yet!
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  • Profile picture of the author Gaz Cooper
    OK lets look at what the OP stated

    First off knowhere did he say everyone was a scammer
    • If you have made no money online - or very little - why are you promoting a make money online course? I remember a long time ago when there were ads in the newspaper like this - "Learn how to make $5000 a month stuffing envelopes. Send $1 to" (and then the address would appear here.) The person, who was attracted to the offer, sent $1 and in return the received a letter that basically said - in order to make money stuffing envelopes - place an ad in the newspaper or magazine of choice and say "Learn how to make $5000 a month stuffing envelopes." Round and round she goes......... Is that something that you would be proud to tell your children that you do?
    TRUE, anyone disagree with this ?
    • There are some wonderful IM'ers - but IMHO - most I wouldn't trust as far as I could throw them. The industry is falling into the gutters! Ones that I trust are Tiffany Dow, Jonathan Tang, and a few others who have not yet proven themselves yet.... YOU might be a great IM'er that I have not had much experience with - I am sorry I did not mention you.
    He said there are some wonderful IMers, Im not insulted as im one of them but most (a bit generalized admittedly) but nothing here I would take offense too, like some warriors have.
    • Who are all these "great" warriors that recommend WSO's that provide little value to the community? Remember, when you promote or back a "crappy" product, you damage your reputation. If you have misgivings - you should state them publicly. Be brave and state your opinion without "trashing" the creator. I believe you will gain more followers with your honest reviews.
    TRUE again you only have to check your inbox to see the crap being touted and then the big names backing CRAP sorry but this is where the subject is TABOO, when I get a supposedly big name promoting a crappy product its certainly damages their reputation in my eyes.

    IS that not TRUE to everyone here ????? or are you saying a big name in IM that promotes an absolutely crap product that he has never used and sends you a canned email does not lose credability ?


    Again his point is valid and not an attack on anyone but an unethical marketer.
    • If you truly have a "super secret" technique you can exploit, we all know you will not give it away or sell it. Why would you? Instead you would jump on the opportunity and do the best you could with it, as we all would. Why would anyone give these "gold digging" secrets away?"
    This is the point where the OP is wrong and its clear from the WF that tons of great info is provided free of any charge and by giving valuable information away free it will pay you back many times over.

    I measure my success this way - I hope that in everything I do -my children would not be disappointed in my actions. I hope that there are many warriors that think the same way - but maybe I am too altruistic


    Not sure why you think this was an attack, he brings up some very valid points I dont see any attack on my credability or anyone elses here on the WF.

    The only point that could be construed as provoking was the headline, the rest of his post is pretty accurate.

    Gaz Cooper
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Gaz,
      The only point that could be construed as provoking was the headline, the rest of his post is pretty accurate.
      It's only accurate in the sense that it is true in some cases. As you'll note, neither I nor anyone else in this thread suggested it was never true. When taken in the context set by the title and the opening paragraph, though, it almost certainly came across as a sweeping condemnation to some folks.

      Like anything else, context is often set with the opening comment. No amount of qualifiers will correct for that if the initial context is strong enough.


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      • Profile picture of the author Gaz Cooper
        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

        Gaz,It's only accurate in the sense that it is true in some cases. As you'll note, neither I nor anyone else in this thread suggested it was never true. When taken in the context set by the title and the opening paragraph, though, it almost certainly came across as a sweeping condemnation to some folks.

        Like anything else, context is often set with the opening comment. No amount of qualifiers will correct for that if the initial context is strong enough.


        Paul

        Just goes to show that people read into things completely different, I read it (inlcuding the headline) and did not take offense or felt that I was in any way identified in the post while others here took it compeltely opposite to me.

        Just goes to show different strokes for different folks.

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  • Profile picture of the author allegrity
    The only ethical way, IMO, my make money on WF these days is through offline methods by helping businesses or offering your services. Online CPA, clickbank, affiliate marketing is unethical and you are just ripping people off (don't come and tell me your products actually work)...basically you're stealing their money. Simple as that. Flame me.
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      allegrity,
      Flame me.
      Flame is considered quite effective on trolls, if my memory of the old D&D days is accurate.

      Sure that's what you want?


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      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
        Gaz,

        Given that you've gone to the trouble of commenting on each of the OP's points individually, let me ask you something. Have you ever heard the advice, "Lurk before you leap?"


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        • Profile picture of the author Gaz Cooper
          Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

          Gaz,

          Given that you've gone to the trouble of commenting on each of the OP's points individually, let me ask you something. Have you ever heard the advice, "Lurk before you leap?"


          Paul
          Hey Paul

          Nope can't say I have but Im guessing there is a lesson in there somewhere. Cant say I disagree with you on many points, your posts are always accurate and make sense, but there is one big point I do disagree on, but thats taboo on WF and for good reason.

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        • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
          Gaz,
          Just goes to show that people read into things completely different, I read it (inlcuding the headline) and did not take offense or felt that I was in any way identified in the post while others here took it compeltely opposite to me.
          I didn't take offense either. I have, however, pointed out why I understand how others might have. I will say this much about it: The thread title was both deliberately rude and intended to provoke a negative response.

          There's a word for such tactics.


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          • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
            allegrity,
            I can voice my opinion, right?
            And you can be banned for insulting an entire group of honest people for no reason and with no basis. If that's your goal, you're on the right path. One step away from success, in fact.

            Go ahead. Say something about censorship and "free speech." Please. Make my day, as Joe likes to say.


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            • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
              Gaz,

              The admonition to "Lurk before you leap" is an old one online. The idea is simple: Observe the group dynamic and see some of the conversations before charging in like an entitled rat in a government cheese warehouse.

              Every 'point' the OP made has been discussed here at least once in the past 48 hours, and typically at least 5 times every week. And those are just the ones I see.


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              • Profile picture of the author Gaz Cooper
                Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                Gaz,

                The admonition to "Lurk before you leap" is an old one online. The idea is simple: Observe the group dynamic and see some of the conversations before charging in like an entitled rat in a government cheese warehouse.

                Every 'point' the OP made has been discussed here at least once in the past 48 hours, and typically at least 5 times every week. And those are just the ones I see.


                Paul
                Ok point taken Paul

                Gaz
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                • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                  Gaz,
                  Ok point taken Paul
                  Just in case I was unclear, which happens occasionally, that was NOT directed at you. It was a reference to the OP. You've been around way too long for that to apply to you personally.


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        • Profile picture of the author Chris Worner
          Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

          Given that you've gone to the trouble of commenting on each of the OP's points individually, let me ask you something. Have you ever heard the advice, "Lurk before you leap?"


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    • Profile picture of the author Gaz Cooper
      Originally Posted by allegrity View Post

      The only ethical way, IMO, my make money on WF these days is through offline methods by helping businesses or offering your services. Online CPA, clickbank, affiliate marketing is unethical and you are just ripping people off (don't come and tell me your products actually work)...basically you're stealing their money. Simple as that. Flame me.

      OK i totally disagree with him YEAHHH can I be in the gang now LOL

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    • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
      Originally Posted by allegrity View Post

      The only ethical way, IMO, my make money on WF these days is through offline methods by helping businesses or offering your services. Online CPA, clickbank, affiliate marketing is unethical and you are just ripping people off (don't come and tell me your products actually work)...basically you're stealing their money. Simple as that. Flame me.
      I'll start.

      I have 3 of my own products, that do work.

      I also only promote CB products that work, I know because I buy them and test them first. I don't and never have sold a make money online product.

      I sell Amazon and Commission Junction stuff as an affiliate, so if someone buys a lawn mower from me because they want to mow the lawn, I'm stealing their money? Why wouldn't the lawnmower work?

      It's as simple as that?

      No it isn't, it never is and make sure you stick to offline marketing methods.

      I'm not flaming you either, I just think your statement was not only done without thinking in a rational manner but it was quite frankly ludicrous, without any evidence whatsoever.
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  • Profile picture of the author Lee Murray
    Come on Don Lapre, jump on this thread and set this dude straight!
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    • Profile picture of the author Gaz Cooper
      Originally Posted by Lee Murray View Post

      Come on Don Lapre, jump on this thread and set this dude straight!

      Or Brad Richdale LOL

      Well actually he made me a lot of money way back when haha
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  • Profile picture of the author allegrity
    I'm just posting what I think about online marketing, affiliate marketing, CPA, and clickbank. This is of course strictly speaking about how to make money online courses only. I can voice my opinion, right?
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    • Profile picture of the author lazyfrog
      Originally Posted by allegrity View Post

      I'm just posting what I think about online marketing, affiliate marketing, CPA, and clickbank. This is of course strictly speaking about how to make money online courses only. I can voice my opinion, right?
      You are welcome to voice your opinion. You will be opposed by people who believe they are ethical. May be they are.
      But world is not black and white.
      There are grey areas too.
      I personally benefited from a money making video course, name of which I am not disclosing here. And I am satisfied with my investment.

      But then I have refunded 1 big gurus' book which I regretted buying.

      So you are not wrong, but you are not altogether right.
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  • Profile picture of the author profitsforall
    I don't recognise this warrior forum people are describing filled with bullies, braggards, cliques, scammers, spammers and scum.

    Sure, there's been the odd person that I haven't seen eye to eye with - but I've either chosen to no longer interact with that person, or I've spent the time to clear the air.

    Then again - I suppose outlooks vary. If you look for deceit and mean attitudes you'll find them, but you'll be overlooking the vast majority that are good, decent human beings all sharing a common goal.

    You just have to take a look at the rules - personal attacks are forbidden, you stray in to that area and you are looking at post deletion, perhaps even a ban.

    This not only protects the much hated Gurus, but also protects the newbie.

    I've also seen WSO's shut down the second it's found to be a scam.

    It may sound harsh, but the few threads I've seen where someone has had a bit of a roasting has always had a good reason.

    Coming into someones house, pooping on the carpet and saying "look what I did, what ya gonna do about it?" never ends well.
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    • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
      Originally Posted by profitsforall View Post

      Coming into someones house, pooping on the carpet and saying "look what I did, what ya gonna do about it?" never ends well.
      Brilliantly said chap.
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  • Profile picture of the author Henry White
    I think the only "secret" you've exposed is your own ignorance and bigotry.

    You're not a War Room member, so you have no first-hand knowledge about the offers or their quality or utility.

    That merely exposes another flaw in your holier-than-thou rant - petty jealousy and envy.

    Obviously, you have your reasons for posting so infrequently, but you really need to adopt a better mindset than the conspiracy theorist and tin-foil hat crowd. You actually CAN build a successful business online, attract tons of traffic, and transform visitors into customers and customers into raving fans - but not for long with a negative outlook on the industry and those of us in it.

    Instead of inviting you to leave the Warriorforum, I invite you to join the War Room. Spend a little time over the next few months in those two private sections. then you might be backpeddling so fast and furious we'll confuse you as running for office somewhere.
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