Will I Piss Off PayPal by Doing THIS?

13 years ago

Originally Posted by igorhelpsyousucceed

Hey Warriors,

Today I heard something that caught my attention.

According to PayPal's ToS - is it OK to force the customer to optin to your list
before delivering their purchase?

Please no "vague" or "logical" answers, ONLY direct quotes from the ToS and the translation.

I reviewed all available material I could find and nowhere in the ToS it says anything about deliver digital goods...

I count on your help,
Thanks,
Igor

Want to piss off your customers go ahead:rolleyes:

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2 replies

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herine 13 years ago

Originally Posted by Regional Warrior

Want to piss off your customers go ahead:rolleyes:

yes, this can definitely piss them off!
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tamarindcandy 13 years ago

Originally Posted by Regional Warrior

Want to piss off your customers go ahead:rolleyes:

This. More worrisome than potentially pissing off PayPal by far.
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LB

13 years ago

It's been claimed here but I've never seen anything about it officially.

Plenty of large companies have a registration process after ordering software for example.

I always ask for the optin and include a link below if someone does not want to optin. If you sell the optin as a way to get updates and free bonuses as well as special offers most people will optin. Only about 5% choose not to.

I know that's not a direct answer from the TOS, but my method seems to keep everyone happy without forcing anyone to optin who absolutely does not want to.

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Peter Livingston 13 years ago

Paypal actually allows you to integrate your autoresponder to your account, so I do not see why they should be pissed off at all..
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Igor Kheifets

13 years ago

OK, so far no "official" answers here.

Regarding your suggestions Luke, the thing is that I want absolute 100% of my customers to optin.

Igor

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BIG Mike

Banned 13 years ago

[DELETED]

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seasoned

13 years ago

Originally Posted by BIG Mike

I don't think I would accept anyone's interpretation of PayPal's TOS from someone in a forum.

He ISN'T! He wants US to search for, and find, the applicable answer on paypals site!

Why don't we check to see if it says anything about their checks being accepted by bank of america! This is about the same question.

Steve

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1 reply

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Richard Van

13 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

He ISN'T! He wants US to search for, and find, the applicable answer on paypals site!

Why don't we check to see if it says anything about their checks being accepted by bank of america! This is about the same question.

Steve

HI STEVE!!!!!

How are YOU today!!!

WHY DO YOU ALWAYS SPEAK TO PEOPLE LIKE THISSSS!!!!!!

I bet you have HUGE trouble in public LIBRARIES!!!

Bye for NOWWWWW!!!!!!

(joke...)

OP,

I think Mikes nailed it, ask Paypal, they made up the TOS.

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Jill Carpenter 13 years ago

Originally Posted by Richard Van

I think Mikes nailed it, ask Paypal, they made up the TOS.

I've been known to call a place several times and talk to several different people to find an adequate answer.
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- Richard Van 13 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Jill Carpenter
  
  I've been known to call a place several times and talk to several different people to find an adequate answer.
  
  I'm not saying he'll get the answer straight away I just think he should get an answer, seeing as they made the TOS up.
  
  I've been known to ring up one particular hosting company and never get an adequate answer, I still haven't either, 4 years later. :p
  
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butcher57 13 years ago

Originally Posted by igorhelpsyousucceed

OK, so far no "official" answers here.

Regarding your suggestions Luke, the thing is that I want absolute 100% of my customers to optin.

Igor

Yes I agree with you, is always better.
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Igor Kheifets

13 years ago

I already called them up and they redirected me to a site at x.com which has no info about this ToS thing...

That's why I came here in hope that maybe some folks have already tackled this problem and had the ToS quote available.

Igor

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seasoned

13 years ago

it's a dumb question.

Why would paypal even KNOW, let alone care!

Want to KNOW? OK!

Paypal sends you LOTS of info after the sale, at least for members. You ARE allowed to use THAT!

NOBODY cares if you collect PRIOR to the sale, though customers may be a little upset.

You generally have to FORGET that info if the prospect hasn't given you permission, though reasonable permission is implied once they become a customer.

STILL, if you are asking like this, I have to wonder how you will use the info.

Steve

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VaultBoss

13 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

it's a dumb question.[...]
Steve

I beg to disagree - no question is ever dumb ... it only proves some people want to learn more about a topic.

This is commendable ...

Answers, on the other hand, might be dumb though .. sometimes ...

I personally avoid answering questions that I don't know how to and rather try to find out the correct answers.

PayPal's ToS in this matter, may or may not be allowing that particular salesflow. In any case, being concerned about breaking the ToS provisions is definitely a good topic to be discussed on WF, as many of us (if not all) use PayPal ... isn't it?

Regarding the issue with the customer's details being recorded on a database ... through automated means ... that is very different.

One could use PP's IPN or other ways to add the customers to a mailing list, which is perfectly legal, even without any other confirmation, because it is a seller-buyer type of relationship (a business one) ...

... however, once they (the customer) paid for an item -
while I couldn't find the exact words yet -
I also 'think' I saw it mentioned before as being against their ToS to force anything before the download.

I will study the matter more and maybe find an answer.

Meanwhile, an open discussion - if not on the actual ToS at least on how people do things - could benefit all warriors.

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seasoned

13 years ago

Originally Posted by VaultBoss

I beg to disagree - no question is ever dumb ... it only proves some people want to learn more about a topic.

This is commendable ...

Answers, on the other hand, might be dumb though .. sometimes ...

I personally avoid answering questions that I don't know how to and rather try to find out the correct answers.

PayPal's ToS in this matter, may or may not be allowing that particular salesflow. In any case, being concerned about breaking the ToS provisions is definitely a good topic to be discussed on WF, as many of us (if not all) use PayPal ... isn't it?

Regarding the issue with the customer's details being recorded on a database ... through automated means ... that is very different.

One could use PP's IPN or other ways to add the customers to a mailing list, which is perfectly legal, even without any other confirmation, because it is a seller-buyer type of relationship (a business one) ...

... however, once they (the customer) paid for an item -
while I couldn't find the exact words yet -
I also 'think' I saw it mentioned before as being against their ToS to force anything before the download.

I will study the matter more and maybe find an answer.

Meanwhile, an open discussion - if not on the actual ToS at least on how people do things - could benefit all warriors.

OK, you DO have a point. Still, about the only place I have heard of such a thing is on things like here where they say free should mean free of even emal addresses. But that is because they are afraid of getting spammed, etc...

BTW in the US there is a company called pannera...

Company pleased with pay-what-you-want cafe | Business | Chron.com - Houston Chronicle

It's a shame everything can't run like that!

Steve

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Igor Kheifets

13 years ago

But my question is about collecting the email AFTER the sale, not before the sale...

Igor

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Karan Goel

13 years ago

Maybe check this thread here

http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...responder.html

Karan

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stuartpanter

13 years ago

Paypal are a pain the a**, they have closed my accounts numerous times for no reason, and have cost me lost business on occasion

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Marcus C

13 years ago

Originally Posted by igorhelpsyousucceed

Hey Warriors,

Today I heard something that caught my attention.

According to PayPal's ToS - is it OK to force the customer to optin to your list
before delivering their purchase?

Please no "vague" or "logical" answers, ONLY direct quotes from the ToS and the translation.

I reviewed all available material I could find and nowhere in the ToS it says anything about deliver digital goods...

I count on your help,
Thanks,
Igor

No, but be careful you don't piss your customers off!

Thanks

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Frank Donovan

13 years ago

Originally Posted by igorhelpsyousucceed

According to PayPal's ToS - is it OK to force the customer to optin to your list
before delivering their purchase?

If you did this without warning your buyers prior to purchase, you'd annoy a lot of customers - some of whom might well complain to PayPal.

Frank

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redfieryheart

13 years ago

out of ethics I think you may not want to do that. Get your own optin and start from there.

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Igor Kheifets

13 years ago

OK, to set things straight:

1. I called paypal and they did not give me the answer. They told me it's MY job to find the necessary info on the web.
2. I don't care if I "annoy" my customers by doing what I want to do, I only care about not getting my paypal account frozen.
3. Sofar nobody came up with an actual quote from the ToS prohibiting this activity and with so many replies that's a shame.

Igor

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oneplusone 13 years ago

According to this lady, they close accounts if you do it...

http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...ml#post3853074

I've never really looked into it, as it isn't something I do personally.
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Frank Donovan 13 years ago

Originally Posted by igorhelpsyousucceed

2. I don't care if I "annoy" my customers by doing what I want to do, I only care about not getting my paypal account frozen.

Um...you don't think there's a chance of one leading to the other? :rolleyes:

3. Sofar nobody came up with an actual quote from the ToS prohibiting this activity and with so many replies that's a shame.

There are lots of things not specifically referenced in a company's TOS (especially when it doesn't impact on the actual provision of that service), that it wouldn't be wise to do in the normal course of business.

Sometimes, you just need to use your common sense.

Frank
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Richard Van 13 years ago

Originally Posted by igorhelpsyousucceed

2. I don't care if I "annoy" my customers by doing what I want to do, I only care about not getting my paypal account frozen.

One more suggestion Igor.

If you bought something, had just paid for it, then the seller did something that pissed you off, what would you do and would you buy off them next time?

It also doesn't make sense, you say this...

the thing is that I want absolute 100% of my customers to optin.

and then this...

I don't care if I "annoy" my customers by doing what I want to do

You can't have both.

I'm concerned with p****g off my customers and my payment provider, why? Because if I piss off my customers I'll have an empty Paypal account with no cash in it to get frozen.
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HowToMakeAWebsite

13 years ago

I agree with Regional Warrior. If you have something extra to give for free then the customers may feel like you are going above and beyond. I think it depends on how you use it. Try to give a bonus related to the products they purchased. Make make a new customer an even happier customer.

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Igor Kheifets

13 years ago

OK, I guess I have to say this outloud...

1. IF YOU DO NOT HAVE AN ACTUAL QUOTE FROM THE WRITTEN DOCUMENT THAT SAYS PAYPAL DOESN'T ALLOW ME TO FORCE MY BUYERS TO OPTIN BEFORE DELIVERING THE PRODUCT-DO NOT REPLY WITH YOUR "OPINION" ABOUT "ETHICS AND MARKETING"

2. Yes, it IS smart to force them to optin and it IS good business. I'm not going to explain why, because this thread wasn't created for that purpose.

From now, PLEASE, only helpful comments PLEASE!!!!

Igor

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Jeremy Kelsall 13 years ago

Didn't read the replies, so sorry if this has already been said.

STRAIGHT FROM THE MOUTH OF PAYPAL - NO you can't force someone to opt-in to get their purchase.

There is of course verbage you can use as a "get around" , but test that at your own discretion.
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Frank Donovan

13 years ago

Originally Posted by igorhelpsyousucceed

1. IF YOU DO NOT HAVE AN ACTUAL QUOTE FROM THE WRITTEN DOCUMENT THAT SAYS PAYPAL DOESN'T ALLOW ME TO FORCE MY BUYERS TO OPTIN BEFORE DELIVERING THE PRODUCT-DO NOT REPLY WITH YOUR "OPINION" ABOUT "ETHICS AND MARKETING"

Tough tits, Igor. You don't get to choose how anyone responds in a thread.

You're welcome to do whatever you like in your business, but others will be reading this and might be interested in a range of opinions on the subject.

Frank

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Igor Kheifets

13 years ago

So far the only helpful comments have been from Luke, Jeremy and SexyEmailMarketing guy...

I didn't ask for your opinion about whether I should or should not do it for ethical reasons or business wise.

I only asked if you've got any info about it concerning paypal's ToS...

And I specifically asked not to waste my time with replies such as yours Frank...

Anyway, I think I solved the problem by doing what Luke suggested.

We'll see how it goes.

Igor

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oneplusone

13 years ago

What was wrong with my reply lol

I didn't bring ethics into it, I pointed you to some helpful information and I'm surprised to see my thanked count still at 403

I decided to have a look on Google out of interest and this is what turned up:

Forced opt-in may be kiss of death

Wordpress Basics

If you really want me to I'll contact PayPal business support here in the UK and ask them, but Jeremy has already confirmed it's not allowed.

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Igor Kheifets

13 years ago

Originally Posted by oneplusone

What was wrong with my reply lol

I didn't bring ethics into it, I pointed you to some helpful information and I'm surprised to see my thanked count still at 403

I decided to have a look on Google out of interest and this is what turned up:

Forced opt-in may be kiss of death

Wordpress Basics

If you really want me to I'll contact PayPal business support here in the UK and ask them, but Jeremy has already confirmed it's not allowed.

Apparently I missed your reply dude

I'm sorry

You've been thanked!

Igor

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Kay King 13 years ago

Paypal did answer you - you weren't smart enough to understand the answer.

It's not up to Paypal to tell you how to run a business. However, when customers complain to Paypal about being forced to optin, Paypal will shut you down. You can't control whether a customer complains about your methods.

Then you can come back here and demand the exact answers you want for why that happened. Good luck with that.

kay
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Richard Van

13 years ago

Originally Posted by igorhelpsyousucceed

So far the only helpful comments have been from Luke, Jeremy and SexyEmailMarketing guy...

I didn't ask for your opinion about whether I should or should not do it for ethical reasons or business wise.

I only asked if you've got any info about it concerning paypal's ToS...

And I specifically asked not to waste my time with replies such as yours Frank...

Anyway, I think I solved the problem by doing what Luke suggested.

We'll see how it goes.

Igor

OK.

Seeing as we've all wasted our time here, I'll tell you what I'd do.

I like your product (or at least what the sales page says), I decide to buy.

....All good so far....

Now I've paid, you won't let me have it unless I sign up to your list. OK, so this is what I think and what I do next when anyone else does this....

Leave a fake email or sign up and unsubscibe as soon as I have the product.

Sorry but that's what I'd do. That's also the reason some people responded with information you didn't find helpful.

As I said earlier, ask Paypal if it's allowed, they made up the TOS.

Then you go and test what works best.

If that's going to make you get all angry and uptight, what else are we supposed to do?

*Facepalm* Can someone explain to me why telling the OP to find out the info he needs about Paypals TOS, can be done from looking at Paypals TOS, is bad advice? :confused::rolleyes:

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Michael Mayo

13 years ago

Will I Piss Off PayPal by Doing THIS?

Man, I'm glad I read all the posts above before I replied to this thread.

I was just about to post a link where this question was posted at PayPal and answered
by their support team but after seeing the attitude of the OP he/she can find the answer for them self.

Have a Great Day if you can!
Michael