58 replies
Just had an interesting conversation with a marketer about Spam today..


I think most of you are under the impression that a person has to be opted onto a list otherwise it is called SPAM..

WRONG...

Please everyone read the CAN-SPAM law of 2003.

As long as you follow the guidelines..Ie; Way for them not to be contacted by you again, address at the bottom, not using a deceptive headline ETC..


It is A-OK to do..

Just because you have an OPTIN doesn't make it OK to use deceptive headlines either as even though they are an optin, you CAN NOT use deceptive headlines and that my friends is what would be considered spam.


That is all
#spam
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  • Profile picture of the author Matthew Iannotti
    It sure the hell is! man that stuff is nasty.. lol
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  • Profile picture of the author Josh Anderson
    Spam is unsolicited bulk email.

    CANSPAM defined how spammers can legally spam. It's still spam.
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  • Profile picture of the author CheapTrafficDude
    To finish off what Mike was posting...

    Stuff Posing as Meat
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  • Profile picture of the author SEO Agency
    Unwanted messages...
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  • Profile picture of the author Emma Francina
    Unwanted mail sent in bulk amount.
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  • Profile picture of the author redfieryheart
    if somebody bombarded anybody for their useless or overstuffed messages, that's what we consider as spam.
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  • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
    Originally Posted by Matthew Iannotti View Post

    Just had an interesting conversation with a marketer about Spam today..
    Here's an even more interesting one.

    It doesn't matter what you think, and it doesn't matter what the law says.

    If the person who GETS the mail thinks it is spam, IT IS SPAM. It will be treated like spam. It will get filtered. It will get reported. And nobody will investigate a damn thing.

    Once the recipient says "that was spam," it was spam, and you will be treated like a spammer by everyone that matters.

    Here lies the body of Samuel Jay,
    Who died defending his right of way;
    He was right, dead right, as he sped along...
    And he's still just as dead as if he had been wrong.
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    • Profile picture of the author Matthew Iannotti
      Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

      Here's an even more interesting one.

      It doesn't matter what you think, and it doesn't matter what the law says.

      If the person who GETS the mail thinks it is spam, IT IS SPAM. It will be treated like spam. It will get filtered. It will get reported. And nobody will investigate a damn thing.

      Once the recipient says "that was spam," it was spam, and you will be treated like a spammer by everyone that matters.

      Thats correct for all emails opted ins or not.. The point is if you follow guidelines you can cover your butt to the non-optins.
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      • Profile picture of the author myob
        Originally Posted by Matthew Iannotti View Post

        ... The point is if you follow guidelines you can cover your butt to the non-optins.
        You're not going to find any commercial autoresponder provider or ISP service that will agree with. YOU will get canned for going against their terms of service, and could be liable for damages in legal action as well by these providers. Don't do it.
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        • Profile picture of the author Matthew Iannotti
          Originally Posted by myob View Post

          You're not going to find any commercial autoresponder provider or ISP service that will agree with. YOU will get canned for going against their terms of service, and could be liable for damages in legal action as well by these providers. Don't do it.

          Oh I don't send out massive amounts of emails at anytime. But that is not to say I don't send an email to my dentists and ask them if I can get them a new website built..
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          • Profile picture of the author myob
            Originally Posted by Matthew Iannotti View Post

            Oh I don't send out massive amounts of emails at anytime. But that is not to say I don't send an email to my dentists and ask them if I can get them a new website built..
            This issue is not debateable. It is against the TOS of all ISPs that I know of, and you will be subject to not only losing your account, but exposing yourself to possible legal action for damages. There is not much tolerance for such behavior any longer on public networks. Keep in mind TOS trumps CAN SPAM law allowances. You lose.
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      • Profile picture of the author NicheMayhem
        Super pathetic advertising material.
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  • Profile picture of the author Cam Connor
    Originally Posted by Matthew Iannotti View Post

    Just had an interesting conversation with a marketer about Spam today..


    I think most of you are under the impression that a person has to be opted onto a list otherwise it is called SPAM..

    WRONG...

    Please everyone read the CAN-SPAM law of 2003.

    As long as you follow the guidelines..Ie; Way for them not to be contacted by you again, address at the bottom, not using a deceptive headline ETC..


    It is A-OK to do..

    Just because you have an OPTIN doesn't make it OK to use deceptive headlines either as even though they are an optin, you CAN NOT use deceptive headlines and that my friends is what would be considered spam.


    That is all
    Good points.

    SPAM, is actually anything that makes people click the "Report Spam" button, regardless of whether they "opt-in" or not. lol

    This means that you have to constantly offer genuine value to your list, and make sure that they can unsubscribe with ease at any moment... Otherwise you'll get Reported as Spam way too much, and be blacklisted and end up in the "Spam" folder, or worse, you won't get your e-mail to your users at all.
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    • Profile picture of the author Matthew Iannotti
      Originally Posted by Cam Connor View Post

      Good points.

      SPAM, is actually anything that makes people click the "Report Spam" button, regardless of whether they "opt-in" or not. lol

      This means that you have to constantly offer genuine value to your list, and make sure that they can unsubscribe with ease at any moment... Otherwise you'll get Reported as Spam way too much, and be blacklisted and end up in the "Spam" folder, or worse, you won't get your e-mail to your users at all.

      Exactly! That is why I am so surprised at whoever started the brainwashing trend of they must be an optin.. Probably started by the guru's who want it to stay a secret to their benefit.
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  • Profile picture of the author sloanjim
    Surely spam is when you receive emails you never opted into or gave permission to receive? I keep receiving SEO service spams....and I am reporting them as spam as I receive them.
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  • Profile picture of the author mattlaclear
    I made tons of cash sending unsolicited emails to real estate agents my first five years in the IM world. Back then it was super easy to build lists by scraping trade sites. Realtor.org actually had the contact info (including email addresses) of all their members listed right on their site. Plus they updated in the new members every month.

    We built a list of 850k agents that way. What we did was purchase a server that allowed us to send emails to all 850k people on our list every single day.

    We would send out free training info and back then the agents gobbled it up and had no problems whatsoever receiving the emails. Back then there was no such thing as spam so no one had defenses up to stop them. We made sure to honor opt offs as well as keeping the messages can spam compliant.

    Over time more and more people started spamming so it ruined the whole damn thing for me. Defenses went up and I went from being a nice thoughtful guy to a spammer. Sales eventually dropped to the point where it was obvious that I had to find a new way to market my business.

    But I disagree with folks that think spammers are some evil beings who need to be eradicated. They are just young marketers who do not know any better.
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    • Profile picture of the author thinkrich
      Originally Posted by mattlaclear View Post

      But I disagree with folks that think spammers are some evil beings who need to be eradicated. They are just young marketers who do not know any better.

      Ummmm...... no.

      I have to disagree with this.

      True, though I have received SOME spam in this format in the past, the vast majority of spam I receive is computer generated bulk email of massive proportions that flood my inbox with totally unwanted messages promoting a totally unwanted product (Mostly Viagra & imitation watches n crap).

      I dont even give the spammers the courtesy of opening their email... it goes straight in the bin.

      I would much rather receive and read legitimate emails than stuff I did not ask to receive.

      Word.
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  • Profile picture of the author PokerKnave
    My favourite spam are those offering me $100,000,000,000 if i would marry them because the have loved me long time and help them to ship money from their dead daddy's account, who was a dictator and syphoned of loads of money etc etc.
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  • Profile picture of the author bobby_shahzad
    I agree with you

    Also Can-spam allows you to make the first contact with your prospect but not any more
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Matt,
      But I disagree with folks that think spammers are some evil beings who need to be eradicated.
      As far as the Internet, they are. They might be the nicest people around, outside of their online habits. But in the virtual world, spammers are the Enemy of every communication system.

      The word 'spam' is used in a lot of ways, some of them at odds with other equally common uses. Arguing the semantics is pointless. And the question of what the law says is separate from what service providers and recipients say on the subject.

      US law specifically allows service providers to make good faith efforts to prevent the delivery of messages they or their customers deem objectionable. So, the fact that it's not illegal does not mean you can send it and expect it to be delivered. The contractual issues are between you and your provider, and most of them do not allow it.

      Canadian law will, effective this fall, make it flat out forbidden to send unsolicited bulk email to mailboxes in Canada, or owned by Canadian citizens. (The issue of location isn't entirely clear for me yet.) That law has teeth, since it allows the recipients to sue directly.

      Other jurisdictions have other laws on the matter.

      All that aside... I mentioned this in another thread recently, and I am going to repeat it once more: Promoting or defending the sending of unsolicited bulk email on this forum is a bannable offense.


      Paul
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      • Profile picture of the author mattlaclear
        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

        Promoting or defending the sending of unsolicited bulk email on this forum is a bannable offense.

        Paul
        For sure spammers should be stopped in their tracks in every possible manner. When I used it as means of advertising years ago I had no idea the mess it was causing receiving servers. As I grew up I saw the mess it was causing and ceased doing so forever. It was then I began to realize the importance of communicating only with folks who had a need for my service AND a desire to talk to me. When I started focusing on those types of prospects my income easily tripled almost immediately.
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        • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
          Matthew,
          I do not see any harm in sending an email to a local business offering a service
          How many people out there think the same way? How many of those emails do you want? And how often do you think they get you viewed in the same category as the orphans and wives of Nigerian princes, or the "make penis fast" peddlers?

          Ken,
          SPAM has become a generic term for anything remotely commercial.
          In some groups, certainly. Most people don't care if it's commercial or not, if it's unsolicited bulk messaging.

          Matt,
          I had no idea the mess it was causing receiving servers.
          You're not the only one. I think a lot of people would be surprised at some of the folks who had the same experience early in the game, and changed their minds when they saw what they were creating.

          The link spammers (including profile spammers) are doing the same things. Just with a slightly less visible erosive effect. Forum and blog spammers are the same kind of online evil. Just a little easier to clean up after.


          Paul
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          • Profile picture of the author mattlaclear
            Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

            The link spammers (including profile spammers) are doing the same things. Just with a slightly less visible erosive effect. Forum and blog spammers are the same kind of online evil. Just a little easier to clean up after.


            Paul
            I'm not sure why more marketers have not embraced setting up their own blog network to spam too. When I looked at all the options to backlinking (given my experience with spamming in the past) it just seemed like a no brainer to go the route of posting to your own sites. It also seems to have solved the spam issue once for all as well.
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          • Profile picture of the author Matthew Iannotti
            Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

            Matthew,How many people out there think the same way? How many of those emails do you want? And how often do you think they get you viewed in the same category as the orphans and wives of Nigerian princes, or the "make penis fast" peddlers?


            Paul
            I think most business owners are a little more relaxed in a sense as they aren't getting hit with clickbank offers 24/7 so when they get a highly professional email following the guidelines, I get some that say to remove them, others interested in learning more and others just don't respond. All of my emails to a local business even include my phone # among full contact info.

            You are right about getting classified in the same group as the viagra pushers. Not necessarily by the people you email, but just people in general. My GF and I have very different views about this very subject..ISP's say one thing (I don't use my own ISP for any emailing) FTC says something different, marketers all over the internet have very different views. It's really amazing. I really hope everyone practices common sense when sending out emails to anyone optin or not because as Roy says above an optin doesn't give you free reign to send whatever you feel like.

            Have a safe holiday weekend everyone .. Remember the troops - freedom isn't free.
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          • Profile picture of the author Matthew Iannotti
            Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post


            The link spammers (including profile spammers) are doing the same things. Just with a slightly less visible erosive effect. Forum and blog spammers are the same kind of online evil. Just a little easier to clean up after.


            Paul


            That's a VERY good point - don't see many people debating this though as it is very similar in nature.
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  • Profile picture of the author DeadRooster
    The OP quotes a lot of fancy FTC laws and CAN-SPAM mumbo jumbo, but if it's unsolicited and I don't want it, it's SPAM. My fence posts are littered with the heads of those who dared to send it to me.

    I don't like SPAM. Not with eggs; not with runny cheese, or even with an X-Parrot.
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  • Profile picture of the author Matthew Iannotti
    Oh I agree- sending MASS unsolicited emails to millions is just a very stupid thing to do. But I do not see any harm in sending an email to a local business offering a service as myself would much rather get an email like this in my inbox, compared to someones list I signed up on and get flogged with clickbank offers daily. In fact I believe there is a very popular WSO (NOT MINE) about building a private practice that mentions to do just that, send an email to a business with a very specific purpose. Now, judging by the amount of people that bought it and left good reviews those businesses people are emailing are not optin's. That is the point I am trying to make, nothing to do with sending out a massive amount of unwanted trash emails to anyone possible as I am for one against that.
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  • Profile picture of the author Fazal Mayar
    My favourite spams are the one offering me home furnitures and the 1,000,000 lottery win tickets
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  • Profile picture of the author royljestr
    Everybody defines SPAM differently, but the ONLY thing that matters is the law which is very easy to abide by. Here is the thread that I started on it.

    http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...nceptions.html
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  • Profile picture of the author JamieSEO
    I like to compare "spam" to the word "weed".

    A weed is just a plant you don't want... despite the legal hoo-ha, really spam is the same thing. You don't call it spam if you actually like the content, regardless of if you signed up for it or not
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  • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
    We used the use the word spam in computer gaming before it got applied to email marketing, but then it meant just randomly firing/throwing things hoping to hit someone.
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  • Profile picture of the author tmoby
    Whenever I talk to people about working online, they automatically say I'm a spammer because they don't understand what I do!

    So point is everyone who doesn't work on the internet thinks everyone who does is a spammer!
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  • Profile picture of the author KabirC
    It is unsolicited contact that is not wanted by the person who is being bugged.
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  • Profile picture of the author dagaul101
    Email marketers have to thread especially carefully these days, even if someone opts in to your list, and you follow all the directions of the CAN-SPAM Act all it takes is a few complaints for you to be in trouble with your ISP or host
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  • Profile picture of the author ussher
    If it comes down to defining "Is Spam" / "Isn't Spam" by what is written in "The Law" it might also be pertinent to point out that there isn't any one single LAW for everyone on the planet (yet....).

    So if the law is the only thing stopping you from sending out a bunch of "You've won the lottery" emails, im sure you can find an exception by purchasing hosting is Nigeria, or Russia, or somewhere that has different laws.
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  • Profile picture of the author magnates
    If you do not ask for it , it is spam .If they do ask your permission before they communicate with you . It is still spam . That is what spam means unwanted, unsolicited emails
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    • Profile picture of the author rts2271
      Originally Posted by magnates View Post

      If you do not ask for it , it is spam .If they do ask your permission before they communicate with you . It is still spam . That is what spam means unwanted, unsolicited emails
      BS

      Spam is the term of the day and the mob applies it to anything they don't like.

      Your statement corrected would be

      spam means unwanted emails

      Even the FTC definition is convoluted. How many people go on the war path when they get a snail mail saying current resident? The easiest answer was the one they did for telemarketers. A do not email list.
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    • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
      Originally Posted by OCLead View Post

      It is a copied messages that is flooding over the internet, it attempts to forced people to receive the message.
      May I suggest you read the link posted by the OP and some of the more knowledgeable Warriors in this thread. I'm not quite sure how an email is an attempt to force someone to receive it? :confused:

      Originally Posted by stufftheme View Post

      stuff that is illegal and not for use
      Do you mean things like Heroin, machine guns and plutonium, in a school environment? Is that spam?
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  • Profile picture of the author JaisonG
    " Some people define spam even more generally as any unsolicited e-mail. "

    It really all depends, whether on Email or on a forum, just something unwanted in my eyes.....
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  • Profile picture of the author Shazia Mirza
    Spam is the abuse of electronic messaging systems (including most broadcast media, digital delivery systems) to send unsolicited bulk messages indiscriminately. ...
    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spam_(electronic)

    As long as we are keeping a relationship with our list and you know, being like normal people and not mailing 100 times a day, we should be good.
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  • Profile picture of the author hilarious89
    Something sending to user that is not wanted is defined as spam, in my sense.
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Ralph,
      Even the FTC definition is convoluted.
      Really? Please show me where the FTC defines the word spam. The only thing close to it in the CAN-SPAM Act is in the title: "Controlling the Assault of Non-Solicited Pornography And Marketing." I'm not aware of a definition offered by them anywhere else. If one exists, I'd like to take a look at it.

      It has been pointed out in a number of threads on the subject, in which you have personally posted, that there are a lot of definitions used by different groups. That doesn't make the people who use definitions which differ from yours a "mob."


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  • Profile picture of the author abigailmarketing
    Spam is indistinguishable email messages sent to several recipients. Spammers gather email addresses from other websites, customer lists, address books and even viruses, and then sent in bulk.
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  • Profile picture of the author Claire Sharp
    Spam are those unwanted emails. Spam is very annoying.
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  • Profile picture of the author david pauls
    Spam is flooding the Internet with many copies of the same message, in an attempt to force the message on people who would not otherwise choose to receive it.
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  • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
    Originally Posted by properyDice View Post

    unknown person sending a unwanted messages.
    Originally Posted by david pauls View Post

    Spam is flooding the Internet with many copies of the same message, in an attempt to force the message on people who would not otherwise choose to receive it.
    Come on people, the OP didn't ask for a definition of spam.

    You did read the OP didn't you? Or did you just see "What is SPAM" and then hit the reply button to give us your personal definitions?

    Ever since Paul Myers last response everyone has just been giving a definition :confused:
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