AWeber Vs. Mail Chimp Vs. Other E-mail List

59 replies
What is your preference for an E-mail list and why?

I hear people talk about AWeber on this forum a lot. Is there a reason one would pay $19.95 over using the free version of Mail Chimp?

Does anyone manage their lists inside Outlook instead? (The reason people use another e-mail list service over outlook is because another e-mail service allows automatic sign-ups - correct??)
#aweber #chimp #email #list #mail
  • Profile picture of the author CoolCaesar
    aweber are pretty good .. they offer a high quality service for a small price and they are professional

    I wouldn't trade them
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    • Profile picture of the author TheSEguy
      Originally Posted by CoolCaesar View Post

      aweber are pretty good .. they offer a high quality service for a small price and they are professional

      I wouldn't trade them
      I dont know, there are many aweber horro stories of accounts being closed for no reason.

      Even accounts with 30,000+ subscribers have been locked, without explanation.

      there is get response and also pro sender is good works just like aweber.

      there are some free versions but your limited to the ammount of sign ups.

      However if your serious about IM then your gonna need an autoresponder to build a list of targeted buyers.
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      • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
        Originally Posted by TheSEguy View Post

        I dont know, there are many aweber horro stories of accounts being closed for no reason.

        Even accounts with 30,000+ subscribers have been locked, without explanation.
        Actually there was a guy here last week who had an account closed with 500,000 subscribers.

        The thing is, the CEO of Aweber is a Warrior and he was here answering questions, like he's probably watching this now.

        Those horror stories you saw. Did the people who had their accounts locked actually tell you the truth? Did you see the emails they were sending out? Are you sure you have the whole truth? Did you speak to them or did you just "hear" about it?

        Just asking because the guy here who had his account closed said the same, then the CEO came on and the guy whose account had been closed said all he'd done was send a dating site email to a Farmville list. Talk about totally unrelated. Naturally some of the list reported it as spam. The guy didn't think he'd done anything wrong. He'll probably now tell people horror stories too.

        Which brings me to my point. Maybe those people with the horror stories didn't actually read Awebers TOS, maybe they sent out an email that got an unacceptable complaint rate but they thought it was fine, maybe they think they didn't do anything wrong but in actual fact they did. Maybe the stories are complete BS. What I mean is, there's often 2 sides to most horror stories and most people only hear one of those sides.

        ...Also and it's highly advisable, you can back up your Aweber list in seconds, so if they did go around randomly deleting accounts, you lose nothing. I do this morning and night.
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      • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
        Banned
        Originally Posted by TheSEguy View Post

        I dont know, there are many aweber horro stories of accounts being closed for no reason.
        "For no reason", or "for no reason the poster purported to understand at the time he posted?

        I see other people's articles all the time which have been declined by EZA "for no reason", and I'd never have accepted them, either. :p

        One person's "for no reason" is another person's "for an obvious reason".

        It seems to me that the situation with established, commercial autoresponder companies closing accounts (typically to protect themselves, as they need to do for the good of all their other clients!), and the situation with free autoresponders doing the same thing are not comparable at all. Not quantitatively and not qualitatively, either. Just my impression.
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  • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
    Banned
    Originally Posted by seotechnician View Post

    Is there a reason one would pay $19.95 over using the free version of Mail Chimp?
    Yes - many reasons.

    Tina Golden's post here may interest you.

    A quick play with the search function will show you posts by some Warriors who've lost their lists and their accounts there without understanding what (if anything) they'd "done wrong".

    You can read more about MailChimp here and here. Not to mention here, discussed only yesterday.

    In my opinion, using a free autoresponder is one of the very most ill-advised and misguided things one can do, in internet marketing.

    Few people are more keen on list-building than I am, but I think for most people it's better to start without an autoresponder, temporarily, than it is to use a free one.

    And (unlike the situation with regard to free hosting), with autoresponders it IS specifically the fact they're free that causes the potential disasters/risks, in my view.
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    • Profile picture of the author MaryB
      Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post


      Few people are more keen on list-building than I am, but I think for most people it's better to start without an autoresponder, temporarily, than it is to use a free one.
      Hi, Alexa.

      Can you elaborate on this?

      If you're just starting out--without a paid autoresponder--how should you build your list? I guess I'm wondering ... if you do want a list but don't (or choose not) to pay for Aweber, is there a way to build a list without a paid autoresponder?

      (I hope this makes sense. )

      Thanks!
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      • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
        Banned
        Originally Posted by MaryB View Post

        Hi, Alexa.

        Can you elaborate on this?
        A little, Mary ... I just think (as many others here do, too) that it's very unwise indeed to entrust the safe-keeping and security of your business's greatest, most important and least replaceable asset (your list) to a free autoresponder.

        I think that it's right at the start of their internet marketing careers, when people understandably have the least judgement about such situations, and the least awareness of the facts and realities involved, that such mistakes tend to be made.

        I suspect that people imagine something along the lines of "Well, I can always start with a free autoresponder until I've made some money, and then make the switch to a better one". Usually, one can't easily do that. Moving established lists from one autoresponder company to another is typically hugely difficult, and very commonly results in all one's subscribers needing - at best - to opt in all over again. Many Warriors have commented here that they've lost between two-thirds and three-quarters of their lists, this way!

        Some people just shrug and say "Well, you can always back it up regularly, can't you?". Easily said. What are you going to do with it, after you've "backed it up"? How are you going to import it elsewhere? Who's going to allow you to import it elsewhere, and under what conditions? (People don't always think about these problems. But the experience of Warriors who have actually had to try to do this seems to me to point to its being something of a nightmare and a disaster).

        In the case of Mailchimp, the situation is, I submit, very clear to anyone willing to make the effort and click on the links above.

        In the case of other "free autoresponders", very much less so, unfortunately.

        Typically, those recommending one, in my opinion, are only recent list-builders themselves and may not yet be aware of some of the longer-term pitfalls.

        Some of these companies attach to every email their customers send out to their lists a clickable link advertising their own free service! :p It's the autoresponder equivalent of having a little website advising people about <whatever> sitting at Yola, with a big clickable link at the bottom of the page advertising "Get your free website here with Yola". How professional does that look?! :confused: :rolleyes:

        Some of these companies also don't yet have a very well established business model. Who really knows if they're still going to be there 3 years later? But if they're not, that can be an absolute disaster to your business!

        On previous occasions when I've made that point, someone with a financial interest in a "free autoresponder" business has replied, mentioning that I don't know that Aweber or GetResponse will still be there in 3 years' time, either. I honestly think it's a very silly point, because it should be clear to all of us that the odds are stacked in one's favour if one uses Aweber (for example) and against one if one uses a "free autoresponder".

        Originally Posted by MaryB View Post

        If you're just starting out--without a paid autoresponder--how should you build your list?
        Aweber costs $1 for the first month and then $19 per month.

        That gives you two months to make $20.

        What sort of "business" doesn't make $20 in two months?!

        If necessary, I'd make a sale or two without having a list, and then start when one has $1.

        The set-up costs even for internet marketing businesses which do everything professionally, right from the start, are absolutely minuscule ...

        $1 for a .info domain-name, or about $8 for a .com; professional, reliable, advertising-free hosting is available free of charge (byethost.com and others), $1 for the first month's service of a professional, industry-acclaimed autoresponder ... how low can the financial entry-barriers be?! :confused:

        Originally Posted by MaryB View Post

        if you do want a list but don't (or choose not) to pay for Aweber, is there a way to build a list without a paid autoresponder?
        There are some ways, actually ... self-hosted solutions using plug-ins and your own little databases, and so on and so forth. I'm not the person to advise you about them ... for myself I probably wouldn't touch them - but I do acknowledge that they may well be a better bet than building a list with a free autoresponder company on whom one would rapidly become dependent without even being a paying customer, because in my view that's the worst and most misguided way to try.

        I like being a paying customer. Whatever people say about the "theory", the reality - in my opinion - is that one's always better-placed, that way. It's only when something goes wrong that it matters. And that "only happens all the time".

        My perspective only - there are others who disagree, of course. (One or two of them are owners of free autoresponder businesses, and some others, I think, are pretty inexperienced and have maybe not yet encountered any problems - in contrast to others here whose posts can be found with the search function).
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      • Profile picture of the author Richard Tunnah
        Originally Posted by MaryB View Post

        Hi, Alexa.

        Can you elaborate on this?

        If you're just starting out--without a paid autoresponder--how should you build your list? I guess I'm wondering ... if you do want a list but don't (or choose not) to pay for Aweber, is there a way to build a list without a paid autoresponder?

        (I hope this makes sense. )

        Thanks!
        Mary,
        Going with a free autoresponder is a bit like building a house with concrete to save money. It may be great for a while but then again it may come crashing down loosing you everything!
        Your list is (to me and many on here) your most valuable asset and when done right has the ability to earn you 6 or 7 figures for years to come.
        On aweber if you sign up you get the first month for $1 anyway. Other autoresponders do deals as well.

        Rich
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  • Profile picture of the author TheSEguy
    BTW if your gonna use mail chimp then forget about affiliate marketing as they dont allow it, in fact its very easy to see your account closed for anything related to other companies products.
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  • Profile picture of the author Edie47
    I've only used AWeber, but I've appreciated the training and support. I'm still fairly new at building lists and sending out newsletters, etc., so I really like how easy it is to get the optin box on my site and getting information out to my subscribers. Wouldn't trade AWeber for the world. The monthly fee is just cost of doing business for me.
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  • Profile picture of the author mmoreal
    For beginner just use Mailchimp because it's free for less than 2k subscribers
    If you are good at email marketing, go for Aweber and ignore all the others service
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    • Profile picture of the author classiqa
      Originally Posted by mmoreal View Post

      For beginner just use Mailchimp because it's free for less than 2k subscribers
      If you are good at email marketing, go for Aweber and ignore all the others service

      Just what I wanted to know.
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  • Profile picture of the author AmandaT
    Ya, you can't promote affiliates with Mailchimp.

    I used to use GetResponse Free but then I heard about ListWire. It is a free, fully functioned Autoresponder. Try it out. I've had no issues at all with it.
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  • Profile picture of the author inspiredguy
    One benefit of a popular paid autoresponder is that there are usually lots of plugins available that support them.
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    • Profile picture of the author seotechnician
      Originally Posted by inspiredguy View Post

      One benefit of a popular paid autoresponder is that there are usually lots of plugins available that support them.
      inspiredguy - like what kind of plug ins?
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      • Profile picture of the author mikeloi
        Myob,

        I would love to hear a response with fact.

        RE: Sorry, I'm just mildly confused.

        Yes, I've been selling commercial software since 2005. I created a email marketing program that thousands have used since 1998. Regarding new to internet marketing, what I mean is I am new to finding channels to market my product. I am not new to email marketing. Hope this clarifies things.

        Mike
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  • Profile picture of the author Phuoc
    id go with AWeber, you get what you pay for and with AWeber you get professional service and support
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  • Profile picture of the author raawow
    Is there any paid alternative to aweber? I'd go for aweber but they wont accept paypal.. Is there any paid alternative that accepts paypal?
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    • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
      Banned
      Originally Posted by raawow View Post

      Is there any paid alternative that accepts paypal?
      I believe that Cashflowresponders, Response 2.0.com, Traffic Wave, Royal Responder and Econtactor accept PayPal, and there may even be one or two others.

      I've never used any of them and can't vouch for them, in any way.

      Autosenders will also doubtless be worth a look, at least: it's owned by Leslie Gibbon (but I don't know whether they take PayPal).

      I've heard there's also a way to use ImnicaMail with PayPal (though they don't take it themselves, I think?), by incorporating either DL Guard or Delavo (but not the free version), because they work with both Imnica and PayPal. :confused:

      Just a thought (in case it helps, though probably you've thought of it already?) ... what about applying for a pre-paid, or online/securitised credit-card?

      I entirely agree that it's about deliverability.

      This is typically difficult for people to test, however, and in reality many people rely on trying to collate a multitude of second-hand "information", which can easily end up being guesswork and personal impression. :rolleyes: :p

      For all the obvious reasons, the "strictest" ones (I don't mean about payment options - more about importing lists and being sensitive to spam reports) are going to be the ones with the highest deliverability, aren't they?
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  • Profile picture of the author netw6000
    Hello:

    For me, it's all about DELIVERABILITY... Aweber spends a lot of time making sure that they have good relationships with all the ISPs and they also are a little stricter as far as opt ins go and importing, etc. The result is that your emails get delivered better and not flagged as spam. They may not have the best price, features, or even customer service, but all that does not matter if your emails are not getting delivered.
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  • Profile picture of the author Steve Solem
    Man I'd love to use Aweber because I really like their many features, but after two security breaches in a year, they haven't quite earned my trust back yet. I can deal with all the extra spam thanks to the many aweber lists I'm on, but I'm not willing to subject my subscribers to the same if it happens again.

    Mailchimp has a lot of nice features too, but as others have mentioned, if you're building lists with the intent to promote products as an affiliate, they may not be right for you.
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    • Profile picture of the author mikeloi
      Hello,

      Why not look into an application that installs on your web server and signup for a smtp service such as smtp.com You would have much more control of your list and by signing up with a smtp service you would have great deliverability. Plus, the cost of going this route is cheaper than a hosted service ie. aweber.com

      Mike
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      • Profile picture of the author myob
        Originally Posted by mikeloi View Post

        Hello,

        Why not look into an application that installs on your web server and signup for a smtp service such as smtp.com You would have much more control of your list and by signing up with a smtp service you would have great deliverability. Plus, the cost of going this route is cheaper than a hosted service ie. aweber.com

        Mike
        It is not cheaper, and don't even go there unless you are a very experienced marketer and knowledgable in CAN-SPAM Act laws as well as other governing regulations in other countries. The commercial autoresponders (even the free ones) have built-in stop gap measures and policies that will protect you as well as the provider.

        I do use this method myself, but only because I have very large lists, and am a well-seasoned email marketer. The cost for a legal set-up (including a dedicated server) is a much greater investment than would be relevant as an option to the OB and is far beyond the scope of even discussing in this thread.
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        • Profile picture of the author mikeloi
          Myob,

          I think you missed what I wrote. Buy an application that installs on your server(one-time fee) and then pay a monthly fee to use a service such as smtp.com to send out the actual mails(this is cheaper than aweber, mailchimp, etc) The smtp service takes care of the ip reputation, relationships with isps, etc so there is no need to concern yourself with this.

          Mike
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          • Profile picture of the author myob
            Originally Posted by mikeloi View Post

            Myob,

            I think you missed what I wrote. Buy an application that installs on your server(one-time fee) and then pay a monthly fee to use a service such as smtp.com to send out the actual mails(this is cheaper than aweber, mailchimp, etc) The smtp service takes care of the ip reputation, relationships with isps, etc so there is no need to concern yourself with this.

            Mike
            MIke,

            I did not miss anything you wrote. Don't do it period. What you are so ignorantly telling everyone is totally against the TOS of every major commercial ISP. Because of reputation and legal liability, there is not much tolerance for such behavior and ISPs will not hesitate to shut you down. Some may even impose hefty fines for violation of their TOS. Many, if not most ISPs or hosting providers, however, do offer a dedicated server for self-hosted autoresponder software. I suggest you get the facts before ignorantly mouthing off here again.
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            • Profile picture of the author mikeloi
              Myob,

              I'm not sure where you are getting your info from. Just for background purposes, I have been doing email marketing since 1998 and sell commercial software as well as own a email marketing service. What you are writing doesn't make sense.

              A smtp relay service is no different than a commercial esp(email service provider) They do the exact same thing - they send email out on behalf of clients. Both take extreme precautions to safeguard their reputations to ensure maximum deliverability.

              Mike
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              • Profile picture of the author myob
                Originally Posted by mikeloi View Post

                ... I sell commercial software as well as own a email marketing service....
                Why doesn't this surprise me?

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              • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
                Originally Posted by mikeloi View Post

                Myob,

                I'm not sure where you are getting your info from. Just for background purposes, I have been doing email marketing since 1998 and sell commercial software as well as own a email marketing service. What you are writing doesn't make sense.
                Mike,

                Paul is an extremely experienced marketer. You just said in a thread on the front page now.

                I am somewhat new to internet marketing. I own a software company that has been online for five years.
                If you've been online for 13 years (since 1998) I wouldn't say you were new to internet marketing.

                Sorry, I'm just mildly confused.

                Anyway, I'm going to get my popcorn out, this looks like fun.
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            • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
              Originally Posted by myob View Post

              What you are so ignorantly telling everyone is totally against the TOS of every major commercial ISP.
              Um... no it isn't.

              The major ISPs do have rules about how much mail you can send through their mail servers, but that's why he's recommended you use a high-volume sender like smtp.com for your actual mailing.

              This is actually not a terrible idea, but most of us are accustomed to having a full-featured form designer, autoresponder, and stats module on our lists. Setting these up yourself on your own server is nontrivial, and it's unlikely most product delivery platforms will be able to easily autosubscribe customers to your lists.

              An awful lot of self-hosted list managers also assume you have exactly one list to which you send nothing but live broadcast messages - scheduling a broadcast for a given date and time isn't easily done, let alone running a drip-feed autoresponder.

              I don't see why people are jumping on Mike for basically admitting in a room full of marketers that he has a product which does this exact thing. I mean, honestly, why do so many so-called "marketers" have such a massive problem with ANY kind of self-promotion? Isn't this precisely what we recommend people do in niche forums?
              Signature
              "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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              • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
                Banned
                Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

                I don't see why people are jumping on Mike for basically admitting in a room full of marketers that he has a product which does this exact thing.
                There's "jumping" and "jumping" (or so I've heard).

                For myself, I think it's very interesting and relevant to know where people's own financial interests lie, when they're "discussing stuff" and especially if they're recommending approaches to solving problems which marketers commonly face.

                Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

                I mean, honestly, why do so many so-called "marketers" have such a massive problem with ANY kind of self-promotion?
                I hear you, but this, in my view, is a slightly different question.

                We're often dealing, in this forum, not just with "ANY kind of self-promotion", in general, but with specific instances of people having a financial interest in a particular perspective highly relevant to the specific issues they're discussing, and especially to their criticisms of others' perspectives. And it's really helpful to be clear about that. (I say that, I hope I need hardly mention, without casting any aspersions at Mike, over this thread, at all!).

                "Just saying".
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                • Profile picture of the author myob
                  @Caliban

                  Both you and I know what it takes to set up and run a self-hosted authoresponder as well as its legal overhead. And in all fairness to Mike, he was not promoting his product/service specifically here in this thread. However, it does appear there was an inappropriate self-interest in view of what we have here showing in the OP posts and others are clearly degrees of inexperience. Mike's "solution" with such a claim this would be cheaper than a service such as Aweber is erroneous in so many areas. Some of these concerns you have also alluded to. So far, Mike has not responded to his claims of which he did say he could "back up". I would be delighted to be so entertained.
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                • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
                  Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

                  people having a financial interest in a particular perspective highly relevant to the specific issues
                  If I believe in something, then naturally I am going to promote or develop products and services consistent with my beliefs, which gives me a financial interest in them.

                  Any alternative is just stupid. Why would I promote or develop products and services that violate my beliefs? Why would I refuse to profit from something I believe in? Why would I remain silent on an issue integral to my business?

                  Developing a financial interest in your core beliefs is precisely what the most ethical, honest, and trustworthy business owners do.

                  None of the alternatives are.

                  I submit that Mike has given us absolutely no reason to believe he is in any way unethical, dishonest, or untrustworthy. Perhaps he should have the benefit of the doubt unless and until we find one.
                  Signature
                  "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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                  • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
                    Banned
                    Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

                    Why would I promote or develop products and services that violate my beliefs?
                    No reason at all, of course - I didn't suggest that you (or anyone) should.

                    But that doesn't change the fact that we're often dealing, in this forum, not just with "ANY kind of self-promotion", in general, but with specific instances of people having a financial interest in a particular perspective highly relevant to the specific issues they're discussing, and especially to their criticisms of others' perspectives, and that it's really helpful to be clear about that.

                    Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

                    I submit that Mike has given us absolutely no reason to believe he is in any way unethical, dishonest, or untrustworthy.
                    I've already made clear above that I agree with that.

                    It remains legitimate to point out others' financial interests, where they're potentially relevant. And don't pretend that they're never relevant, please! :p
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                • Profile picture of the author Shaun OReilly
                  If you are not technically-minded, then I wouldn't
                  recommend going for a self-hosted autoresponder.
                  So, go with a third-party provider such as AWeber
                  instead.

                  But if you are technically-minded, then consider...

                  There are many advantages to using a self-hosted
                  autoresponder in conjuction with an external SMTP
                  service provider such as smtp.com:

                  1. You control the database - If it's on your own
                  server, then you have full control of the MySQL
                  database.

                  In contrast, if you're using a third-party autoresponder
                  provider then they have control of your #1 business
                  asset - your list and your deliverability rates are tied
                  to their server reputation (which you don't control either).

                  I've got my script set-up to automatically backup my
                  list database on a daily basis - to a non-web accessible
                  folder.

                  And, because I've got the full MySQL database, I can
                  slice and dice my list at will and make it do fancy stuff
                  that I wouldn't be able to do with third-party providers.

                  2. You can change servers at will - If you have a self-
                  hosted autoresponder script that allows you send via
                  an external SMTP server, then you can change your e-mail
                  delivery server at any time - without having to move your
                  list and database.

                  Back in 2005, I was using 1ShopppingCart and their servers
                  got blacklisted by SpamHaus. Deliverability went through the
                  floor - for weeks - so I had to look elsewhere for a solution
                  and eventually moved my list to AWeber.

                  Now, with a self-hosted autoresponder script, I can move
                  from smtp.com to authsmtp.com or elsewhere at the click
                  of a button if any deliverability issues arise.

                  (SMTP providers manage the repuation of the server)

                  I prefer to be in full control of the #1 asset in my Internet
                  business - my list. It's backed-up every day and I've got
                  flexibility in the servers I send from.

                  But if you're more of a technophobe, then go for a third
                  party provider for sure.

                  Dedicated to mutual success,

                  Shaun
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                  .

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                  • Profile picture of the author mikeloi
                    Hello,

                    Shaun brought up some excellent points.

                    If you are not technically minded, it is better to go with a hosted solution ie. aweber, constantcontact.com, etc

                    However, if you are techicially minded it's better to go with a self-hosted and an external sender. By going with an external sender such as smtp.com you are getting the same benefits if you went with a hosted. They monitor their reputation with isps, etc

                    I posted in this thread soley for the benefit of others. I do consider myself an expert in email marketing. I came to warriorforum's in general to learn about internet marketing - how I can move my product in more channels. I did not post in this thread for financial gain.

                    RE: Mike's "solution" with such a claim this would be cheaper than a service such as Aweber is erroneous in so many areas. Some of these concerns you have also alluded to. So far, Mike has not responded to his claims of which he did say he could "back up". I would be delighted to be so entertained.

                    Please point out specifically what is erroneous.

                    Say you go the route I suggest. Say you have a list of 20,000 contacts. You buy a program for 60 and install it on your server. You signup at smtp.com for 20,000 contacts - that's 27/month.

                    Let's say you go the hosted route - ie. constantcontact.com 10,001-25,000 contacts is 150/month.

                    Again, by having smtp.com send your mail you get the same deliverability benefits as a hosted solution. They have the same safeguards in place and take the same precautions. You also get additional benefits that Shaun mentioned. Hope this helps.

                    Mike
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                    • Profile picture of the author myob
                      Originally Posted by mikeloi View Post

                      Hello... etc
                      Agreed. Your alternative solution is not the issue, Mike, but rather the context. The OP statement was whinging about the price of Aweber for $19.95, and then you claim it would be "cheaper" with software installed on one's server and using the dedicated smtp paid monthly service. This is erroneous, as you have pointed out now the monthly smtp fee is $27 for up to 20,000 subscribers, not including the initial cost of the software and its unlisted installation and configuration expenses. Certainly not a solution for which the OP was searching. And you know as well as I that this solution is subject to inherent technological hurdles and pot holes for the newbie which are better served by the established commercial providers. Discussing smtp has its own issues irrelevant here. As I said at the very first, it is far beyond the scope of even discussing in this thread.
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                      • Profile picture of the author mikeloi
                        Myob,

                        Couldn't disagree with your more.

                        RE: Agreed. Your alternative solution is not the issue, but rather the context. The OP statement was whinging about the price of Aweber for 19.95, and then you claim it would be "cheaper" with software installed on one's server and using the dedicated smtp paid monthly service. This is erroneous, as you have pointed out now the monthly smtp fee is $27 for up to 20,000 subscribers, not including the initial cost of the software and its unlisted installation and configuration expenses. Certainly not a solution for which the OP was searching.

                        For 19/month you get 500 contacts. I was talking about 20,000 contacts. I would be happy to provide an example where you would see there is a cost savings at 500 contacts. Using my example, for 20,000 contacts(aweber.com) the price is 130/month. Again, smtp's monthly fee is 27 and you have the one-time fee of $60. There would be no installation or configuration expenses or if there are, minimal. I provide complementary installation and my competition either charges($50) or provides this for free as well.It takes 5 minutes to install the software and 5 minutes to configure the smtp details.


                        RE: And you know as well as I that this solution is subject to inherent technological hurdles and pot holes for the newbie which are better served by the established commercial providers.

                        Disagree. Once the program has been installed and the smtp setup the end user is using the same type of interface as a hosted solution.

                        Mike
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                        • Profile picture of the author myob
                          Mike, how does that answer the OP question? :rolleyes:

                          Originally Posted by seotechnician View Post

                          ...I hear people talk about AWeber on this forum a lot. Is there a reason one would pay $19.95 over using the free version of Mail Chimp?
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              • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
                Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

                I don't see why people are jumping on Mike for basically admitting in a room full of marketers that he has a product which does this exact thing. I mean, honestly, why do so many so-called "marketers" have such a massive problem with ANY kind of self-promotion?
                Hello Caliban,

                How are you? Long time since we last talked.

                With respect, apart from Paul disagreeing with him, where in the thread has anyone jumped on him at all, let alone condemned him for be self promotional?

                I can't see anything in the thread at all mentioning any self promotion of any kind.

                All I wanted answered, was the discrepency between Mike saying he was new to IM and then saying he'd been in it for 13 years, I'm sure you would have wondered that as well....and he cleared that up for me.

                Not having a go or anything chap, I just don't see any jumping, just a disagreement between Mike and Paul. For your information I didn't think Mike was being promotional at all, in fact, I didn't know what he was talking about, I use Aweber. I'm technically useless, you see.
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                • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
                  Originally Posted by Richard Van View Post

                  How are you? Long time since we last talked.
                  Still looking for guests this Saturday.

                  With respect apart from Paul disagreeing with him, where in the thread has anyone jumped on him at all, let alone condemned him for be self promotional?
                  Well, I have rather a problem with this:

                  "What you are so ignorantly telling everyone is totally against the TOS of every major commercial ISP."

                  Because, see, it's not.

                  And when Mike discloses that he sells commercial software and services related to this, MYOB responds with:

                  "Why doesn't this surprise me?"

                  ...along with the popcorn-munching animated GIF that we use to belittle and ridicule people in here.

                  Seriously, that's the tribal meaning of that GIF. It means "this discussion is stupid and only valuable as entertainment."

                  There's a very skeptical attitude in this thread, along with some very mean-spirited comments that are quite honestly founded in ignorance, for no good reason.

                  The fact is, more and more people are becoming more and more upset with AWeber - especially people with huge lists - and the solution Mike proposes is precisely what they're doing. They're picking up self-hosted scripts (AutoResponse Plus is often recommended, at a price of $177) and using third-party mailing services (most frequently smtp.com) to handle actual delivery.

                  I've been a big equal-opportunity AR guy who never had a problem at AWeber or GetResponse or Imnica and was quite happy with my service at all three. But earlier this year, the reports really started coming in about how unhappy people are at ALL of them.

                  AWeber treated me like crap for a month and a half, GetResponse is treating other people like crap, Imnica really isn't doing the job for some people, ConstantContact and iContact have surprised me with completely unacceptable policies when I was evaluating them... I am just about sick to death of how much these companies basically stomp all over their customers and say "screw you, do it our way or else."

                  And I don't make a dime from Mike's script or any similar script. I'm just a pissed-off customer looking for the solution to my problem, and Mike's position on what that solution is looks more and more right every day.

                  So I'm a little annoyed that it's being automatically discounted just because there's money in it for him. I don't find that any different from the people who go out of their way to strip affiliate IDs out of links so nobody gets a commission. You don't save or make any money yourself, you just make sure someone else doesn't get any. It's just plain mean-spirited and nasty.
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                  • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
                    Still looking for guests this Saturday.
                    I'll try not to drink before if I'm there this time

                    I do accept Paul and Mike were having quite a discussion but I may have misread what you said when you said that "people" were jumping on Mike. I took that to mean you mean't more than one person. When I mentioned the popcorn it was more from my own excitement at seeing two people discuss something that I have no idea about and I admit, it looked like it was going to be a good old barney of a discussion.

                    So I suppose it would have been entertainment for me but stupid, certainly not. Both Paul and Mike could explain the finer points of how to set something like this up and my eyes would glaze over faster than you and I can both neck a bottle of rum.

                    Playing devils advocate, I think Paul was trying to point out, that for the OP, who appears not to have any autoresponder yet and could therefore be a newbie, perhaps the concept Mike was explaining, which is second nature for you, may not be good advice for a newbie who may not understand it and go for it simply for the sake of saving the $20 a month Aweber charge.

                    I think Sean hit the nail on the head and I think for Mike, he'd be better off marketing this to people that are of better technical ability than the likes of myself and other technically dense people. I'm not saying he's marketing it at all, Indeed for those who know what they're doing, it's a useful thing he's talking about.

                    I suspect he is planning on marketing it, he's asked advice on how to do so in another thread but no doubt it will be far more useful to technically able Warriors, than some of the crap I see peddled here sometimes.

                    And I don't make a dime from Mike's script or any similar script. I'm just a pissed-off customer looking for the solution to my problem, and Mike's position on what that solution is looks more and more right every day.
                    If I were you after what you'd wrote, I'd be doing this myself and perhaps contacting Mike for advice (which I suspect you don't need).

                    As for being annoyed with what Paul said, I'm sure you're both big enough to discuss it like gentlemen and settle it all very amicably.

                    As for stripping out affiliate links to stop people getting commission, naturally I think they should be shot.
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        • Profile picture of the author seotechnician
          Originally Posted by myob View Post

          ....knowledgable in CAN-SPAM Act laws as well as other governing regulations in other countries. The commercial autoresponders (even the free ones) have built-in stop gap measures and policies that will protect you as well as the provider.

          I do use this method myself, but only because I have very large lists, and am a well-seasoned email marketer. The cost for a legal set-up (including a dedicated server) is a much greater investment than would be relevant as an option to the OB and is far beyond the scope of even discussing in this thread.

          Please explain -- what are the potential consequences of not understanding the CAN-SPAM Act and governing regulations in other countries?
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      • Profile picture of the author seotechnician
        Originally Posted by mikeloi View Post

        Hello,

        Why not look into an application that installs on your web server and signup for a smtp service such as smtp.com You would have much more control of your list and by signing up with a smtp service you would have great deliverability. Plus, the cost of going this route is cheaper than a hosted service ie. aweber.com

        Mike
        Thank you so much Mike! I knew there had to be a do-it-yourself approach. I am more fond of a do-it-yourself approach because I would like to be able to back up the e-mail addresses on a couple different hard drives. Plus, having access to the e-mails (even perhaps printing a hard copy as a back up) gives me much more security.
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        • Profile picture of the author mikeloi
          Myob,

          There's no need to flame. Every claim that I make I can back up.

          Mike
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          • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
            Originally Posted by mikeloi View Post

            Myob,

            There's no need to flame. Every claim that I make I can back up.

            Mike
            Mike,

            I can't speak for Paul but I don't think he's flaming you at all. This is a discussion forum and he disagreed with you, this is quite normal.

            Don't let it get to you.
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          • Profile picture of the author myob
            Originally Posted by mikeloi View Post

            Myob,

            There's no need to flame. Every claim that I make I can back up.

            Mike
            I'm sure you can, but so far I haven't seen anything from you why this would be so much better than Aweber, GetResponse, Mail Chimp, or any other email providers, nor how it can be of real value or relevance to the newer marketers such as what the OP asked about. And, why would it be necessary to know the CAN SPAM Act and similar regulations of other countries if you are not using a commercial provider. Hmmmm? Go.
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    • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Steve Solem View Post

      Man I'd love to use Aweber because I really like their many features, but after two security breaches in a year, they haven't quite earned my trust back yet.
      I hear you there, Steve.

      I had an interesting conversation on this exact subject with Paul Myers, in another thread which I can't immediately find. Paul made the very good point that this may well not indicate any fault or carelessness on Aweber's part but just that they were the ones attacked by the perpetrators, on that occasion, and that "next time" it could just as easily be GetResponse or any other company.

      Who's to say that others' security is any better than Aweber's?

      Some people also feel, if their bank has made a couple of errors on their account, that that's a very good reason to stay with the same bank, because surely they're going to move Heaven and Earth to take better precautions in future? Not an exact analogy, but you see what I mean, perhaps? A third time would be so damaging to their business, don't you think?
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    • Profile picture of the author Shaun OReilly
      Originally Posted by Steve Solem View Post

      Man I'd love to use Aweber because I really like their many features, but after two security breaches in a year, they haven't quite earned my trust back yet. I can deal with all the extra spam thanks to the many aweber lists I'm on, but I'm not willing to subject my subscribers to the same if it happens again.
      After the first data compromise at AWeber, I was prepared
      to give them another chance. In fact, I thought that they'd
      be hyper-paranoid therefore be one of the safest places to
      house a list.

      But, within a year, their systems were hacked yet again.

      On both occassions, no credit card data was stolen. So why
      not use similar systems to protect subscriber data too?

      Though this could happen to any autoresponder provider,
      what disappointed me most was how AWeber 'dealt' with
      the situation the second time around.

      Did they e-mail the affected account holders to let them
      know that their subscriber data had been accessed by
      spammers?

      No.

      Instead, AWeber made a blog post that was buried within
      days and the majority of users didn't get to see it nor know
      that their subscriber data was accessed.

      Dedicated to mutual success,

      Shaun
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  • Profile picture of the author Fernando Veloso
    All this discussion just shows one thing:

    There is room for a NEW autoresponder company to dominate the IM market.
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    • Profile picture of the author mikeloi
      I agree that there is room for improvement but ConstantContact clearly dominates the email marketing arena.
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  • Profile picture of the author travlinguy
    Mail Chimp is very explicit about what they will and will not tolerate and it's not just affiliate promotions. I've italicized and boldened the important one. Can you afford to have them shut you down just when you're starting to get some momentum? Think about it.

    This is from their Terms of Use page:


    Also, there are some industries that send certain types of content that result in higher than normal bounce rates and abuse complaints, which in turn jeopardize the deliverability of our entire system. No offense intended, but because we must ensure the highest delivery rates possible for all our customers, we do not allow businesses that offer these types of services, products, or content:
    • Illegal goods or services
    • Escort and dating services
    • Pharmaceutical products
    • Work from home, Internet Lead-gen, Make money on online opportunities, etc.
    • Online trading, day trading tips, or stock market related content
    • Gambling services, products or gambling education
    • Multi-level marketing
    • Affiliate marketing
    • Credit repair, get-out-of-debt content
    • Mortgages and/or Loans
    • Real estate prospecting or listing
    • Nutritional Supplements, Herbal Supplements or Vitamin Supplements
    • Pornography or nudity in content
    • Adult novelty items or references in content
    • List brokers or List rental services
    • Marketing or sending commercial email without proper permission
    Generally speaking, if you're in an industry that is frequently associated with spam, you know who you are (it's probably why you're reading this far, right?). We make no judgments about your line of business, but we cannot afford to risk our deliverability. In fact, most ESPs like MailChimp will not be able to help you. You will most likely need to look into setting up your own mail servers. The term to search on is "email delivery server." There are many industrial strength MTAs to choose from with built-in delivery and reporting tools for high-volume senders.
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  • Profile picture of the author omk
    I prefer getresponse. I tried others and found them to be lacking in functionality. Sometimes the easier ones with easy interfaces lack a lot of the targeting and segmentation features.
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  • Profile picture of the author JamesRiley
    trust me, use aweber. nothing compares. I tried to use Listwire but it was so confusing.
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  • Profile picture of the author Rasmus Lindgren
    I recently migrated from Aweber to Mailchimp.

    Main reasons was actually better support for other languages than English. We have a couple of extra characters in the alphabet here in Denmark, and Aweber doesn't really make it easy working with them.

    Also Mailchimp is free up to 2000 contacts so that just made the switch even easier.

    While Mailchimp does a lot and feels a bit more "web 2.0", I sometimes miss how easy it was to setup an autoresponder series in Aweber. There are alot of settings in Mailchimp so the only way to really do it, is to setup the campaign you want, and then duplicate it each time you want a new autoresponder/campaign.

    I've also blogged a bit about my switch here: Migrating from AWeber to Mailchimp
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  • Profile picture of the author ColleenHale
    Aweber has been pretty easy and I'm completely new to IM. I looked at Mail Chimp as well, but all the experts that I've been researching suggested Aweber. Plus I got my first month for only $1 through an affiliates link.
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    • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
      Originally Posted by ColleenHale View Post

      Aweber has been pretty easy and I'm completely new to IM. I looked at Mail Chimp as well, but all the experts that I've been researching suggested Aweber. Plus I got my first month for only $1 through an affiliates link.
      I think it's actually $1 for the first month anyway, whether you buy though an affiliate or not. Doesn't matter though.

      Good luck with your IM career, I'm sure you'll do very well.
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  • Profile picture of the author mikeloi
    Myob,

    Look at the entire post:

    AWeber Vs. Mail Chimp Vs. Other E-mail List

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    What is your preference for an E-mail list and why?

    I am simply providing information about another email marketing alternative. I guess I was chiming in about my preference I think it would fall under "other email list" Take care.

    Mike
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  • Profile picture of the author ghostrecon
    I find MC is a much simpler solution if you are just starting out, although their tracking services are far from the best it still gets the job done if you are mailing a selection of opt ins.
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