Customer drops SEO service...how to undo the links I created?

83 replies
Instead of building links to a customer's site, is it best to buy a domain, set up that domain to forward to the customer's site, and build links to that domain?

That way, if the customer drops the service, I can simply close the domain and he loses the rankings I built him?

***EDIT:

I HAVE NO INTENTIONS OF BEING UNETHICAL AND DON'T YET NOW THE ETHICS OF SEO AS A SERVICE TO OFFLINE CUSTOMERS.

I only have a few clients at this point, and didn't know what common SEO practices are, so I won't be pulling out any links from them.

It's just that I've been quoting low fees for achieving rankings so I can collect monthly maintenance fees (month to month no contract).

Had a few customer cancel after paying a month or two of maintenance fees, but they kept 1st page rankings for uncompetitive terms for over 8 months now.

I guess I just need to charge more up front.
#created #customer #drops #links #seo #servicehow #undo
  • Profile picture of the author Ernie Lo
    ? Why would you do that, just move on.

    I'm guessing he PAID you to do work, you did the work and now he no longer wants any more work done.

    That doesnt mean you should ruin his rankings. Surely you have better use of your time?

    Or am I missing something?
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    • Profile picture of the author Vanessa Reece
      Yes I must be missing something too because I can't fathom why you'd want to do that either. :confused:

      V
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    • Profile picture of the author Andy Money
      Originally Posted by JustOnePepsi View Post

      Instead of building links to a customer's site, is it best to buy a domain, set up that domain to forward to the customer's site, and build links to that domain?

      That way, if the customer drops the service, I can simply close the domain and he loses the rankings I built him?
      That's a terrible way to do it, but yeah you could. Don't expect to get any serious clients doing a 301 redirect through some domain though and you'll have to do 2x the work to get any real results. In other words: no, don't do that.

      Originally Posted by Ernie Lonardo View Post

      ? Why would you do that, just move on.

      I'm guessing he PAID you to do work, you did the work and now he no longer wants any more work done.

      That doesnt mean you should ruin his rankings. Surely you have better use of your time?

      Or am I missing something?
      ^This, is this what you're saying OP?
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  • Profile picture of the author JustOnePepsi
    I'm not out to ruin his rankings or do anything vindictive.

    The contract says I'll maintain him on page 1 as long as he pays for the service.

    If I leave the links in place after he cancels, his page will "float" on page 1 for 4-5 months and he'll think "hey, I didn't need that SEO service after all."

    Whereas if he cancels and I can pull the links, he'll feel the immediate impact of not having an SEO.
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    • Profile picture of the author Andy Money
      Tell him that's what you'll do then. If he doesn't keep up his end of the bargain you'll remove all his links and he'll lose his rankings--tell him that before doing it and see if he changes his mind.
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    • Profile picture of the author GarrieWilson
      Originally Posted by JustOnePepsi View Post

      I'm not out to ruin his rankings or do anything vindictive.

      The contract says I'll maintain him on page 1 as long as he pays for the service.

      If I leave the links in place after he cancels, his page will "float" on page 1 for 4-5 months and he'll think "hey, I didn't need that SEO service after all."

      Whereas if he cancels and I can pull the links, he'll feel the immediate impact of not having an SEO.
      So you are trying to screw him for your benefit.

      The contract says you will maintain. It doesn't say you will sabatage the work he has already paid for.

      Show him this post. Then he can use it to sue you.

      If you wont show him, then you KNOW what you want to do is wrong.

      Where do you sell these services from? I want to be sure and avoid you.

      -g
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    • Profile picture of the author Cool Hand Luke
      Originally Posted by JustOnePepsi View Post

      I'm not out to ruin his rankings or do anything vindictive.

      The contract says I'll maintain him on page 1 as long as he pays for the service.

      If I leave the links in place after he cancels, his page will "float" on page 1 for 4-5 months and he'll think "hey, I didn't need that SEO service after all."

      Whereas if he cancels and I can pull the links, he'll feel the immediate impact of not having an SEO.
      I'm going to jot your name down in my SEO notebook under "Services and Providers to AVOID".

      What you're talking about doing is ridiculous. It's like someone paying a contractor to build another few rooms for their home, and when they are done, have paid, and decide they don't need any more rooms, the contractor burns the house down.
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    Justonepepsi,

    WOW, what a business!!!!! You ought to get into insurance! HERE is what you do! Offer home owners insurance. When they drop your insurance, have the army drop a bomb on their home!

    I'm not out to ruin his rankings or do anything vindictive.

    The contract says I'll maintain him on page 1 as long as he pays for the service.
    PLEASE look up the word MAINTAIN! MAINTenance is a SERVICE! That is the ONLY service someone has to be in for SEO!

    If I leave the links in place after he cancels, his page will "float" on page 1 for 4-5 months and he'll think "hey, I didn't need that SEO service after all."

    Whereas if he cancels and I can pull the links, he'll feel the immediate impact of not having an SEO.
    Do the restaurants around you ACTUALLY give you water that makes you THIRSTY, or STARVE, after you leave?

    PLEASE let us know what businesses you have.

    Steve
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    • Profile picture of the author Morphius
      Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

      Justonepepsi,

      WOW, what a business!!!!! You ought to get into insurance! HERE is what you do! Offer home owners insurance. When they drop your insurance, have the army drop a bomb on their home!



      PLEASE look up the word MAINTAIN! MAINTenance is a SERVICE! That is the ONLY service someone has to be in for SEO!



      Do the restaurants around you ACTUALLY give you water that makes you THIRSTY, or STARVE, after you leave?

      PLEASE let us know what businesses you have.

      Steve
      OMG I couldn't stop laughing. This GREAT!!!!!!!!!! you are funny man
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  • Profile picture of the author mosthost
    Charge for the work, not the links.
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    • Profile picture of the author MikeFriedman
      It is your business you are building, but I think that would be a terrible way to operate. You would basically be holding clients hostage.

      Instead, offer enough value to them that they never want to leave your service.

      For example, I have a client that is ranked #1 for 10 keywords we targeted. Now we are targeting 10 keywords in the county next to ours, plus 3 additional local ones that I have identified. I'm constantly dangling more carrots in front of them, so they never want to cancel.

      And if they did want to cancel, that is up to them and they are free to leave. I'm not going to undo all the work they paid for. I will immediately start prospecting one of their competitors though.
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    • Profile picture of the author nlquyen
      Originally Posted by mosthost View Post

      Charge for the work, not the links.
      Yeb, agree with you.
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  • Profile picture of the author Vanessa Reece
    Sorry but you just don't hold clients to ransom like that. It's unethical and this doesn't help the rest of us who are ethically providing services.

    He paid you for a service. He no longer wants it. He may feel the benefit of not having it for a spell - but you've done your job and that's all you need to do. It's not up to you to make his rank fall in order to win his business back.

    Think first of the energy that would take you anyway (not to mention it being unethical) - and balance that out with the time you could spend looking for new clients.

    Bad karma man, move on.

    V
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    • Profile picture of the author JustOnePepsi
      Originally Posted by ITS-V View Post

      Sorry but you just don't hold clients to ransom like that. It's unethical and this doesn't help the rest of us who are ethically providing services.

      He paid you for a service. He no longer wants it. He may feel the benefit of not having it for a spell - but you've done your job and that's all you need to do. It's not up to you to make his rank fall in order to win his business back.

      Think first of the energy that would take you anyway (not to mention it being unethical) - and balance that out with the time you could spend looking for new clients.

      Bad karma man, move on.

      V
      No problem, no problem. I HAVE NO INTENTIONS OF BEING UNETHICAL AND DON'T YET NOW THE ETHICS OF SEO AS A SERVICE TO OFFLINE CUSTOMERS.

      I only have a few clients at this point, and didn't know what common SEO practices are, so I won't be pulling out any links from them.

      It's just that I've been quoting low fees for achieving rankings so I can collect monthly maintenance fees (month to month no contract).

      Had a few customer cancel after paying a month or two of maintenance fees, but they kept 1st page rankings for uncompetitive terms for over 8 months now.

      I guess I just need to charge more up front.
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      • Profile picture of the author Vanessa Reece
        Originally Posted by JustOnePepsi View Post

        No problem, no problem. I HAVE NO INTENTIONS OF BEING UNETHICAL AND DON'T YET NOW THE ETHICS OF SEO AS A SERVICE TO OFFLINE CUSTOMERS.

        I only have a few clients at this point, and didn't know what common SEO practices are, so I won't be pulling out any links from them.

        It's just that I've been quoting low fees for achieving rankings so I can collect monthly maintenance fees (month to month no contract).

        Had a few customer cancel after paying a month or two of maintenance fees, but they kept 1st page rankings for uncompetitive terms for over 8 months now.

        I guess I just need to charge more up front.
        Okay, I think you've obviously got the point that your proposed move wasn't the best plan.

        Okay, so what you need to do now is spend some time in the offline forum and just try and pick up what the best practices are and how your role as a seo provider works. There are some great people who post there who have been in client/services business for a long time.

        I understand a lot of people are working the way you do (when they first start out - and then even on an established basis) - meaning. They manage to get clients and sign no agreements and unaware of general protocol. Even though offliners don't have a regulating body we do need to show good ethics, or we get lumped in with every shoddy scammer going.

        I'm pretty sure you're going to move forward and learn from this.

        Understand your obligations, agreements etc and most of all understand the job you're offering.

        Like I said, there is plenty of info on the offline sub-forum here.


        V
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        • Profile picture of the author Kay King
          It's just that I've been quoting low fees for achieving rankings so I can collect monthly maintenance fees (month to month no contract).

          Had a few customer cancel after paying a month or two of maintenance fees, but they kept 1st page rankings for uncompetitive terms for over 8 months now.

          I guess I just need to charge more up front.
          I love it - you are LISTENING!

          Low fees? You set your fees.

          No contract? Your choice and you probably get more clients without the need for a long term contract. Maybe you could have a three month or six month minimum term instead.

          If your efforts are going very well maybe you can scale your efforts to show some improvement each month to keep the customer interested rather than a big bash where he'll feel like the job is done.

          Think about it. Set a price that pays you for the time you put in each month so you won't feel put upon when someone cancels (and people will cancel). Also make certain you are working to establish a real relationship with your customers with regular updates and future plans for them.

          You just need to make adjustments - but you don't take back what a customer has paid for.

          kay
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      • Profile picture of the author Black Hat Cat
        Banned
        Originally Posted by JustOnePepsi View Post


        Had a few customer cancel after paying a month or two of maintenance fees, but they kept 1st page rankings for uncompetitive terms for over 8 months now.

        I guess I just need to charge more up front.
        They're probably dropping your service because the keywords you're ranking them for aren't generating any sales or traffic. No one with half a clue is going to keep paying you to rank them for crappy keywords.
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  • Profile picture of the author Danny Cutts
    haha this is one of the funniest threads in a long time.....

    I woudl look at your service you are offering if you are doing a good job at driving his business forward then why would he drop you???

    He will probably drop you because you are a chancer?

    My offline clients pay me month in month out... they dont need to look elsewhere or even consider stopping because I deliver in what I say I do.....

    People like you give us legitimate businesses a bad name... I would go and get a job and get out of this business asap

    Danny
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  • Profile picture of the author mzonas
    I agree with all posters above me.

    Originally Posted by JustOnePepsi View Post

    Instead of building links to a customer's site, is it best to buy a domain, set up that domain to forward to the customer's site, and build links to that domain?

    That way, if the customer drops the service, I can simply close the domain and he loses the rankings I built him?
    Don't do that. When you redirect domain, redirected domain will surely loose its rankings because you are saying that this domain is no longer of use and redirect to another site. So basically, it is pointless.

    And I would not suggest to sabotage your client. Bad deed indeed!
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      That way, if the customer drops the service, I can simply close the domain and he loses the rankings I built him?
      Sure...and don't forget to refund all the money he paid you, too.
      Signature
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      what it is instead of what you think it should be.
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    OK, any bets as to whether people will believe I am SERIOUS about the bombs? BTW I am NT involved with insurance!

    Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
    Banned
    You're going to give back all the payments for the work, I assume? What a shoddy way to do business. Customer cancels the service, you stop work and move on. Simple.
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  • Profile picture of the author Danny Cutts
    "DON'T YET NOW THE ETHICS OF SEO AS A SERVICE"

    Are you serious?
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  • Profile picture of the author Danny Cutts
    Can you actually achieve rankings? Do you actually have any idea about SEO?

    If you did know these then you would have and tiny bit of an idea about right and wrong?

    I dont charge my clients till I get results..... no money up front nothing!!! I just do what i say and they take me on... I charge a heck of a lot more money and my clients perster me to invoice them

    If you had a few clients cancel after the first month then i reckon its because you cant do what you say you can do....

    Ethics tend to be common sense
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    • Profile picture of the author JustOnePepsi
      Originally Posted by Danny Cutts View Post

      Can you actually achieve rankings? Do you actually have any idea about SEO?

      If you did know these then you would have and tiny bit of an idea about right and wrong?

      I dont charge my clients till I get results..... no money up front nothing!!! I just do what i say and they take me on... I charge a heck of a lot more money and my clients perster me to invoice them

      If you had a few clients cancel after the first month then i reckon its because you cant do what you say you can do....

      Ethics tend to be common sense
      Yes, I can get rankings without any problems: title/descr/h1/etc.; build variety of inbound links (forums, press releases, blogging, linkable content etc.); index them; expand site, etc.

      I'm very cheap (as little as $60 to achieve page 1 for low competition local-kws) and don't demand 6 or 12 month contracts.

      I'm not a cold caller and don't wear cologne or gel.

      I'm losing money with my cheap up-front page 1 fee and hoping to get it back on maintenance, but truth is, very little regular link building is required for low competition kws.

      So for low comp kws, I should obviously charge much more for the page 1 fee and very little for maintenance.
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      • Profile picture of the author John Romaine
        Originally Posted by JustOnePepsi View Post

        I'm very cheap as little as $60
        Originally Posted by JustOnePepsi View Post

        I'm losing money with my cheap up-front page 1 fee
        Read what you wrote again, then tell us what the problem is.
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  • Profile picture of the author Fraggler
    Mike gave you some great advice. You are accepting defeat before the fight has even started.

    You should be working your bum off so a customer doesn't want to leave you. If building links isn't going to maintain a customer long term then find other ways to add value to your service that helps your customer grow their business.

    If you want to maintain control then I think you really need to tackle your business a little different.

    One method is to create your own sites in different industries that rank well and then rent these out to other businesses. You then can create a clear relationship/contract where the customer is fully aware with what happens when they stop paying, i.e. their competitor gets the business that used to be theirs.
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  • Profile picture of the author Danny Cutts
    not neccesarily....

    Charge whatever it brings to teh company...

    I have a company who due to my efferts brings in around £8K profit a month for low comp keywords... should I charge $60 for that?

    DO I HELL!!

    I charge £2500 with almost zero maintenance on my part but you get paid month in month out go to any company and say hey give me £1k and I will give you £5K are they going to say no??? Doubt it :-)
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  • Profile picture of the author Danny Cutts
    sorry grammer and punctuation escaped me :-)
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  • Profile picture of the author cybernac
    I have a friend dealing with this very issue. After paying for SEO to a company for 2 years, all of the work THAT HE PAID FOR is disappearing. This is not right. Of course, many links will eventually fall by the wayside but this is obvious that there is sabotage going on. If I was the person taking away the things I had done for someone who PAID me for that work, I would worry about Karma. Don't forget - what goes around will come around.
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  • Profile picture of the author terrapurus
    Originally Posted by JustOnePepsi View Post

    Instead of building links to a customer's site, is it best to buy a domain, set up that domain to forward to the customer's site, and build links to that domain?

    That way, if the customer drops the service, I can simply close the domain and he loses the rankings I built him?
    Expect your clients to sue you if you do this.

    Look at this way. You are a business and you might use an accountant to do your books and your tax returns. You decide you don't want to use him anymore after 12 months. He took your record keeping from an absolute mess to a system that almost looks after itself. If he follows your business decisions, he is going to turn up on your door, delete all your personal accounting records and dump every printed receipt you had back on the floor where he found them.

    Pay your advisors and pay them well. And if you are an advisor and someone says "I got it from here" ... ask for a referral instead of thinking of ways you can harm their business.
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  • Profile picture of the author stingrays06
    Sounds like you need to reconsider the way you charge your clients. Charge more up front depending on the amount of work you have to do -- every keyword is different.

    Your customers are probably happy with the rankings you helped them develop, but why would they keep on paying you month after month if they already achieved their ranking? If their ranking drops because they failed to continue building links, then they will be back...
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    The hard part is getting good links and the right keywords, etc... So it WOULD make sense to charge more up front. HECK, your original point was that it may take a while for the ranking to degrade.

    It SHOULD be an easy sale!

    Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author dadamson
    Deleting links is unethical. I have been in this business for a while now and I do get the odd client who is painful to deal with and wants to cancel or get a refund.

    You just have to shrug it off and move on.

    I would never use the 301 re-direct idea. It would work, but it is highly unethical. My suggestion would be to gently warn the customer that a sudden stop in the backlinking service could produce negative results and he is highly likely to lose rankings.

    My guess is that you are pricing your service too low and not charging enough upfront for your work. Price your service accordingly so that even one or two months is worthwhile for you to be in business.

    Don't stress if people cancel, it's a natural thing. For everyone that cancels you will get another quality subscriber who will rave about your services.

    Concentrate on getting more business than sabotaging unsatisfied clients.

    PM me if you want some more info, I am in the same biz
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  • Profile picture of the author Mike Hill
    Pulling links they paid for is a good way to get sued... They payed you for those links, that's final. Unless you stipulated that in the contract. Why would any business in their right mind continue to pay for links indefinitely?

    Move on...
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  • Profile picture of the author John Romaine
    Originally Posted by JustOnePepsi View Post

    no contract......
    *shakes head :rolleyes:

    This is so unethical on so many levels its not funny.
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    • Profile picture of the author JustOnePepsi
      Originally Posted by ramone_johnny View Post

      *shakes head :rolleyes:

      This is so unethical on so many levels its not funny.
      How so?

      By no contract, I mean I don't lock my customers into 3/6/8 months of service. They can cancel any time.

      Of course there's a signed contract in which we agree on price and keywords.
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  • Profile picture of the author Tuffy22
    Wow! Just....wow. I can't really add more than what has already been said. All you should do is try to explain the benefits on ongoing SEO, and that a page 1 ranking isn't a definite thing without continued attention. Take the time to research and suggest additional phrases that you could target to improve his business even more. Prove your worth through communication. If the business still wants to part ways, well, that's business. Thank them, and let them know to keep you in mind for future SEO efforts.
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  • Profile picture of the author mattlaclear
    If you want to compete with the big boys in this industry then you need to toughen up a bit. You put a post like this on a forum filled with potential prospects for your services? What you think the upside to doing so is beyond me. But as a competitor in your industry I thank you for doing so. As a potential vendor offering services on this forum you should never use your posts to whine about your business. Just a headsup man. Rock on.
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  • Profile picture of the author Jake Gray
    Move on - This is a learning lesson for sure.

    You'd waste time trying to get rid of the links, so
    next time, make sure you collect the payment...
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  • Profile picture of the author blueorca17
    Originally Posted by JustOnePepsi View Post

    Instead of building links to a customer's site, is it best to buy a domain, set up that domain to forward to the customer's site, and build links to that domain?

    That way, if the customer drops the service, I can simply close the domain and he loses the rankings I built him?

    ***EDIT:

    I HAVE NO INTENTIONS OF BEING UNETHICAL AND DON'T YET NOW THE ETHICS OF SEO AS A SERVICE TO OFFLINE CUSTOMERS.

    I only have a few clients at this point, and didn't know what common SEO practices are, so I won't be pulling out any links from them.

    It's just that I've been quoting low fees for achieving rankings so I can collect monthly maintenance fees (month to month no contract).

    Had a few customer cancel after paying a month or two of maintenance fees, but they kept 1st page rankings for uncompetitive terms for over 8 months now.

    I guess I just need to charge more up front.
    Yeah, if he paid you, don't worry about it. Next time, don't build the links directly to the customers site. Build them to a site that belongs to you and then just 302 redirect the link juice to their page. That way you have complete control over what goes on... but that;s ONLY if for some reason they don't pay you. It's totally not cool to do that to someone who has already paid for service.
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  • Profile picture of the author GetMoreTraffic
    That would work...but it wouldn't really enhance your reputation! Just move on to a client who wants a long-term partner.
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  • Profile picture of the author timpears
    Why would you do that to someone that paid you good money to do a job, and doesn't need any more work currently. That would be a pretty ****ty thing to do in my opinion.

    If you need your car fixed, and you hire a mechanic and he fixes it, you don't pay them again next month if it is still running. They did the job one time and it shouldn't need doing again for a while, if ever.
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  • Profile picture of the author balric
    If they paid for the service the links should be left alone. It is total bs when a service takes down links when you paid for them unless it is stated before you pay.
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  • Profile picture of the author yukon
    Banned
    I'm not sure why everyone is bashing OP!

    Look around at services that 3-way-link, heck I see sites like that promoted here all the time. OP is trying to do the same, it's called a subscription service.

    Do I approve of 3-way-links, HE$$ NO! I always say build your own REAL backlinks. The reason is most of those type of backlinks are running a 301 redirect for the backlinks, it's an ON/OFF switch to kill the links once the customer stops the subscription/payment the site will drop like a brick in the SERPs.

    If you buy web hosting from Hostgator & stop payment, do you get to keep your site online (No)? Why? Because it's a subscription service, stop paying, & you stop playing!

    Just saying, I don't get the bashing in this thread...
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    • Profile picture of the author ARVolund
      Because they are not the same thing, not even close.

      The OP was paid to build links with the expectation that they would be permanent (or as close as one can get). It is made very clear when you get your links on a network that you are leasing those links on a monthly basis so you know going in what you are paying for.

      That would be like your hosting example.

      A year or so ago (I believe on this forum) someone was recycling forum profiles. He would sell the links and then a month or two later after his clients had checked them use them for another clients site removing the first link. Way wrong as the expectation when some buys that type of link is that it belongs to the client.

      That would be more like me building a website for a client and selling him hosting as well and then six months later when he decides to move his site to a different hosting company nuking his website that he already paid for.


      Apples and Oranges.


      Originally Posted by yukon View Post

      I'm not sure why everyone is bashing OP!

      Look around at services that 3-way-link, heck I see sites like that promoted here all the time. OP is trying to do the same, it's called a subscription service.

      Do I approve of 3-way-links, HE$$ NO! I always say build your own REAL backlinks. The reason is most of those type of backlinks are running a 301 redirect for the backlinks, it's an ON/OFF switch to kill the links once the customer stops the subscription/payment the site will drop like a brick in the SERPs.

      If you buy web hosting from Hostgator & stop payment, do you get to keep your site online (No)? Why? Because it's a subscription service, stop paying, & you stop playing!

      Just saying, I don't get the bashing in this thread...
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      • Profile picture of the author yukon
        Banned
        Originally Posted by JustOnePepsi View Post


        It's just that I've been quoting low fees for achieving rankings so I can collect monthly maintenance fees (month to month no contract).

        Had a few customer cancel after paying a month or two of maintenance fees, but they kept 1st page rankings for uncompetitive terms for over 8 months now.
        Originally Posted by ARVolund View Post

        Because they are not the same thing, not even close.

        The OP was paid to build links with the expectation that they would be permanent (or as close as one can get). It is made very clear when you get your links on a network that you are leasing those links on a monthly basis so you know going in what you are paying for.

        That would be like your hosting example.

        A year or so ago (I believe on this forum) someone was recycling forum profiles. He would sell the links and then a month or two later after his clients had checked them use them for another clients site removing the first link. Way wrong as the expectation when some buys that type of link is that it belongs to the client.

        That would be more like me building a website for a client and selling him hosting as well and then six months later when he decides to move his site to a different hosting company nuking his website that he already paid for.


        Apples and Oranges.

        Hang around the WF seo forum & you'll see how those types of links are not understood by a lot of folks.

        If the 3-way types of link building are made very clear why do you get so many questions here on WF about them, & I'm sure multiple other forums? Again, folks new to link building get the impression those 3-way links are an easy way out of doing real link building on their own.

        Like I said before, I don't approve of those types of link schemes. But I do understand the direction that OP is trying to take his business.

        Doesn't sound like apples & oranges to me! Sounds like OP is trying to build a subscription type business.

        Now lets all sit back & wait for the next backlinker to sell his new 3-way links service, & then praise the service. :rolleyes:

        Sad, but true...
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
      Originally Posted by yukon View Post

      I'm not sure why everyone is bashing OP!

      Look around at services that 3-way-link, heck I see sites like that promoted here all the time. OP is trying to do the same, it's called a subscription service.
      .................Just saying, I don't get the bashing in this thread...
      Was something changed before the edit in the Op because I kind of get what you are saying here. I thought this was a hypothetical and don;t see where he said he wouldn't let the customer know that he controlled the links in the ranking. Forget 301s there are many people here on Warriors that don't put links anywhere to a clients site except on their own network which ultimately they control. I'm quite sure some of them at least are not going to keep the link no matter what for years to come to customers who are no longer with them.

      But of course if he was contemplating just not telling the client upfront then thats clearly wrong.


      edit: seems to be the case which I missed

      Had a few customer cancel after paying a month or two of maintenance fees, but they kept 1st page rankings for uncompetitive terms for over 8 months now.


      Thats no good if he was thinking of moving those links. BTW when did first page equal traffic?

      http://www.iclickmedia.com.sg/search...ough-rate-ctrs

      Rank 6 through 10 for a search term with 10,000 per month and you will get around ten visits a day. Thats not worthy of ongoing pay.
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  • Profile picture of the author bamidele_ba
    I don't think there's any point in removing client sites if they stop paying - since they've stopped paying maintenance fees you should stop doing maintenance. You shouldn't collect money for work you've stopped doing.

    Also, you might want to consider increasing your price upfront.
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  • Profile picture of the author Janet Scettrini
    You need to setup a different contract structure. This much is obvious. Make it painful to leave your service but not impossible. Like mobile companies..

    J
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  • Profile picture of the author amcfad2
    get all the money upfront if you're using paypal.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Hill
      Originally Posted by amcfad2 View Post

      get all the money upfront if you're using paypal.

      By your comment you haven't understood what the OP is talking about. He's complaining about his customers cancelling his services after a few months. Now he wants to pull all those backlinks he got them because they cancelled the service. These companies have paid on time every time month after month. Just because they do not need his services any more is no reason to pull backlinks the customers have bought and paid for. The OP thinks these companies should pay him indefinitely for those backlinks.
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  • Profile picture of the author Jeffery
    Term Contracts (x days/weeks/months/years) are your Projected Income Statements (leverage) when you need a business loan! Most banks actually require this now-a-days. Think of how you could up scale your business with the money. Years ago, my own use of the loan was to hire an employee. Long story short.. I hired a salesperson full-time to contract offline business owners whereas I worked from home performing the online services AND promoted my business online. That covered three venues.

    You could do the same.

    I wouldn't dismiss term contracts.

    Jeffery 100% :-)
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  • Profile picture of the author dark witness
    I don't see how stopping a maintenance fee which is for maintenance (ongoing work) = backtracking and removing previous work done?

    If you stop receiving payments you stop working. If you are undoing all the work previously done then really you should be giving him a refund as well. He has paid for the work you have already done, he is just not paying for anymore work, thats all.

    thats like me canceling my sky subscription and then sky turning round and saying they are going to take back all the hrs of film I have watched by sucking it out of my memory.

    Does not sound like a good idea to me.
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    • Profile picture of the author KennethYu
      You should buy LiquidSEO and Daniel Tan's WSO on how to run an SEO business. I'm glad you took the time to ask in this forum but you should go into the battlefield with knowing some of the rules of war.

      Providing SEO services is a business. If you're not running it like one, how can you expect your clients to give you that same level of respect?
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      • Profile picture of the author Provaltech
        Why you want to remove back link of your client. Client always pay for the work if after some time he want to break the contract it is not being big problem for you.
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      • Profile picture of the author John Romaine
        Originally Posted by KennethYu View Post

        Providing SEO services is a business. If you're not running it like one, how can you expect your clients to give you that same level of respect?
        Well said.
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      • Profile picture of the author Justin Goff
        This is the toughest part with SEO services. The best SEO's who do stuff for big online companies (like gambling sites) get paid on performance. So if they stay in the top 3 for "online poker" they get X amount of dollars per month.

        This is the best model I have seen.
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        • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
          Long response alert----
          ____________________________

          LOl this thread is funny when you look at it in more than one way. Anyway first to the Op. Yes it is wrong for you to go back and remove links that the customer paid for permanently. No doubt about it - unethical for permanent links.

          Now maintenance? actually maybe not. As one of the few "SEOs" (sorry the terms is just overused) here that does work for established offline companies I can tell some people accusing you don't know how SEO works beyond what they see offered here.

          MANY SEOs BUY and RENT some High pagerank links (They never admit it except to other SEOs so that is NOT An admission on my part......). It is your responsibility to discuss that with your customers and once you do there is absolutely no reason for the customer to believe that the links are going to keep on paying for themselves should they expire. If my customers do not know I teach them how to check their backlinks so they are free to check and make sure they keep up with everything and unless there is some really swift separation I will let them know so no that is not an out to just watch them flame out but it explains how in real SEO firing the SEO CAN IN FACT lead to losing links if the customer does not keep up on it.

          Secondly I think I know where you are coming from and what the real question behind the question is. You are asking how to go about maintaining your income and the viability of your business model. Without entertaining the impropriety of removing links it IS a legitimate question.

          So if I may be blunt - if all you do is put up a bunch of weak links on Forums, blast blog comments and spam the life out of the internet under the term SEO then yeah if thats all your customers want or know about then they may bail on you because frankly you are run of the mill and they will go to the next guy offering it for $2 less.

          However if you decide to go after people serious about their business who want high authority on page links that can't take the long term hit to their business from being either labeled a spammer or being caught by google with nothing else but bought links (and obviously bought) then you can develop a set of skills that are in high demand and your expertise makes you indispensable to that kind of client.

          That kind of client tends to pay more and make more from your SEO. They are in really competitive niches where without your expertise they are going to sink real quick because the competition is always coming. As such you are more likely to have a permanent seat at your clients dinner table than them letting you go. and guess what?" in the great paradox they appreciate you more and are less pains in the neck than the cheaper customers.

          So the answer to a more viable business is to aim higher not lower. Or just be upfront with all your customers and tell them that all the links you provide are under your ultimate control just like some people who are coming down on you hard do when they offer ranking services. So then just be upfront? Not hard.
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      • Customers don't like "monthly fees." Were you planning to do anything additional for the rest of the months? Like build more links, or more seo work? If you do the work once, and expect to be paid all year, it is not right for the customer. Also how would you feel if you were on the other end?

        Always give more than what you are paid to do. The world has a great way of bringing it back to you. Maybe not with this customer, but if you focus on this bad one, you might miss a really good one. Good luck.
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  • Profile picture of the author Martin Salter
    J.O.P

    I think you get the vibe from the thread
    In the main you are looking at this the wrong way, just change how you structure your business.

    If you have no contract, then dont expect the commitment from your customers to continue forever.

    You set your standard
    You set your rates
    You set your terms

    If your customers dont agree to this, find ones that will. If you place yourself in the market in the right way, you will never need to worry about crap like this anyway. Why? Because you will have more business than you can handle and the money will never become the issue.

    Offering cheap rates is a way to break into a market, but it can also cost you in the long run. Better to change the deal set up so that your rates are standard to the industry you are in. Even premium if your service is better.

    If the keywords are not competitive, then it does not really matter how long they stay there for. Cost your project accordingly. You will see that Matt's answer in this thread tells you everything you need to know.

    Check out his WSO for $97 for front page in Google. He does not promise ongoing placement, but he also does not tear down your link after your payment.

    Its ten times harder to get a new client than to keep an existing one. Its also easier to get referrals from happy clients than get them yourself.

    Make your fees relevant to the work you will do. Example. It takes you 20 working hours to get the job done for your client. You charge $50ph, then explain your fee is $1000. If they continue to benefit after that, good on them - Point that out to them as a "Reason for using your services"

    If you keep doing 20 hours per month for them, then explain the contract is month to month at $1000 per month. Be clear on your terms and be realistic about what you are charging for.

    The only instance I would go with something close to your suggestion of the redirect is working as follows:

    Research local market niches. For example, accountants, attorneys, dentist, chiropractic, florists, real estate agents etc and build web sites for that LOCAL market that get traffic. Once you have a good traffic stream, then RENT your space to a local business.

    You could for example get the shed load of monthly traffic, then track it and send it to a local accountant web site for free for 2-4 weeks.

    Make sure you are tracking clicks to their site then call up the business and explain what you did the past few weeks and ask if they saw an uptake in business via the web?

    Explain your business model and offer to keep sending them traffic for a monthly rental fee of your site. This way, they know upfront that should they stop paying you, the traffic goes away too. But your terms are clear at the beginning of your business and nobody is left feeling ripped off.

    This is the only way I would consider the on/off traffic option rather than a sneaky redirect.

    Anyway, learn your trade, see what others are doing in SEO and get yourself a contract agreement drawn up. Even if that is a one day/week/month agreement.

    Martin Salter
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  • Profile picture of the author johnjg
    It would be completely wrong of you to remove the links and no longer have him in the ranking position you got him to. He did PAY you for the work you did right? Perhaps he sees he is #1 and the sales are not coming in. Or he figures he's #1 and he no longer needs to have your service... OR... perhaps he simply can't AFFORD the service for the time being. If he drops off the first spot, or the first page - let it happen naturally. You know who he'll call when his rankings drop, right? It WILL be you, if you don't sabotage the links or remove them - meaning if you do this in an ethical way, he'll more than likely be back, having learned first hand that maybe he DOES need to keep paying monthly in order to maintain the rankings.

    But to think of this from another angle. You got him to #1, he's in business. He knows other people who are running a business. He may very well send more business your way, because obviously your service WORKED! So keep it ethical, keep it honest, and if his rankings drop, he'll be back. And maybe, because you're ethical and honest, he may even send more business your way. And that's the key. To build more connections, get more business, etc...

    If his page drops, he'll call YOU to fix it, because you were honest, and did good work.

    Just my 2 cents.

    Originally Posted by JustOnePepsi View Post

    Instead of building links to a customer's site, is it best to buy a domain, set up that domain to forward to the customer's site, and build links to that domain?

    That way, if the customer drops the service, I can simply close the domain and he loses the rankings I built him?

    ***EDIT:

    I HAVE NO INTENTIONS OF BEING UNETHICAL AND DON'T YET NOW THE ETHICS OF SEO AS A SERVICE TO OFFLINE CUSTOMERS.

    I only have a few clients at this point, and didn't know what common SEO practices are, so I won't be pulling out any links from them.

    It's just that I've been quoting low fees for achieving rankings so I can collect monthly maintenance fees (month to month no contract).

    Had a few customer cancel after paying a month or two of maintenance fees, but they kept 1st page rankings for uncompetitive terms for over 8 months now.

    I guess I just need to charge more up front.
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  • Profile picture of the author ManieE
    As someone said, dude just move on!! Go rethink your price and strategy, but don't try to hold your client for ransom, it's not going to work out well....
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  • Is doing a 301 redirect possible. Sure. Most SEO firms don't do it, but we have run across some of our current clients that have hired SEO firms in the past that have done it.

    Personally, it sounds like you should raise your retainer so you aren't in the position you are in currently. And communicate with your clients and let them know what you are doing on a monthly basis, ie.

    Our firm has created these two articles, and here is a copy of them for your review, confirmation, before we post them online, ect.
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  • Profile picture of the author Dean Jackson
    Wow...

    Take Matts advice. You just robbed yourself of potentially HUNDREDS of prospects who would otherwise be interested.

    This is a PUBLIC forum and I'd suggest having a think before you post reckless things like this and ruin your reputation.

    Dean
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  • Profile picture of the author Fernando Veloso
    The only way to solve that "problem" is using your private network. But in the end it's the way you rule your business.

    We had customers acting like fools with us, and we kept their links. Why not? Their rankings dropped cause they stopped their campaigns - but their competition didn't. So in the end it's always their loss. One guy even told us "We're #5, no more payments. Ripp the contract to your toilet."

    lol

    Poor *******, as soon as we stopped our campaigns he's nowhere to be seen.
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  • Profile picture of the author Brian Alaway
    One simple way to avoid this and do it completely ethically is to rank your own sites, for keywords appropriate to an industry/service etc., then rent the site. When rent payments stop, you rent that site to the next prospect. Just make sure customers know they are renting and not buying.
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  • Profile picture of the author apoorv.parijat
    Almost everybody else has already chimed in with their opinions so I feel like I'm going to be a bit repetitive here but...

    It would be totally unethical to plot and remove backlinks once your customer stops paying. As someone else rightly said, its tougher to get new clients than to retain existing ones. The obvious course of action would be drop an e-mail/message to the client politely asking what he thought went wrong. At times, you'll come across amazing answers that helps you improve your business in the longer run. Sometimes, you may get the client back with you.

    Also, you don't always have to compete on price. You can (and should) increase your price if you feel so. Follow johnjg's advice above. :-)
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  • Profile picture of the author evolution2
    I suggest you do the following two things before you pend your time worrying about this:

    1) Get a customer.

    2) Get a customer to page 1.

    Horse before cart.
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael D Forbes
    It would seem to me that if the OP even had to ask the question, he is not ready for clients.
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  • Profile picture of the author Isaiah Jackson
    Damn man thats kind of messed up don't you think you dont have to take his rankings

    Originally Posted by JustOnePepsi View Post

    Instead of building links to a customer's site, is it best to buy a domain, set up that domain to forward to the customer's site, and build links to that domain?

    That way, if the customer drops the service, I can simply close the domain and he loses the rankings I built him?

    ***EDIT:

    I HAVE NO INTENTIONS OF BEING UNETHICAL AND DON'T YET NOW THE ETHICS OF SEO AS A SERVICE TO OFFLINE CUSTOMERS.

    I only have a few clients at this point, and didn't know what common SEO practices are, so I won't be pulling out any links from them.

    It's just that I've been quoting low fees for achieving rankings so I can collect monthly maintenance fees (month to month no contract).

    Had a few customer cancel after paying a month or two of maintenance fees, but they kept 1st page rankings for uncompetitive terms for over 8 months now.

    I guess I just need to charge more up front.
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  • Profile picture of the author omk
    You could do the domain thing, but you could also do a redirect to a a url shortening service that sends the visitor to the target page. This way you can save money on buying domains and just have 11 link that you need to change.
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  • Profile picture of the author Danny Cutts
    my clients love monthly fees :-)
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  • Profile picture of the author Sardent
    I can see the point the OP is making.
    I also think many of the responses in here are over the top, along with their strawman analogies.

    I would bet serious money that someone somewhere (probably quite a few) have found a way to license the results of SEO services, they probably just don't call it that, and readily pull the plug when the service is canceled.

    However, if you want to avoid the name-calling you've been receiving, or avoid the appearance of impropriety, change your billing structure, raise your prices, make sure your clients get specific info each month about exactly what you're doing for them and what they're getting, perhaps even changing the structure of how quickly you implement the strategies that get them their ranking.

    Think of it this way...how many people would keep a gym membership if they achieved all their weight loss results in only 1 months?
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  • Profile picture of the author Rich Struck
    Every day I come here and I ask God to stop the idiots from posting and every day God says no.
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  • Profile picture of the author John Romaine
    So I've been mowing lawns within my own lawn care business over the last 5 years and just recently a customer informed me he no longer required my services because he's getting a pool installed.

    Thankfully, Ive kept all the lawn clippings since I started mowing for him 5 years ago, so Im going to go back there tomorrow, and dump the lot in his yard.

    That'll teach him.
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    • Profile picture of the author yukon
      Banned
      Originally Posted by ramone_johnny View Post

      So I've been mowing lawns within my own lawn care business over the last 5 years and just recently a customer informed me he no longer required my services because he's getting a pool installed.

      Thankfully, Ive kept all the lawn clippings since I started mowing for him 5 years ago, so Im going to go back there tomorrow, and dump the lot in his yard.

      That'll teach him.
      Try that analogy with a cable tv company (subscription service) & see how that works out for ya (lol), when you stop monthly payments!

      You stop paying the cable man & you'll be hooking up a rabbit ears antenna to your tv.

      Don't forget the tin foil!
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      • Profile picture of the author BloggingPro
        Originally Posted by yukon View Post

        Try that analogy with a cable tv company (subscription service) & see how that works out for ya (lol), when you stop monthly payments!

        You stop paying the cable man & you'll be hooking up a rabbit ears antenna to your tv.

        Don't forget the tin foil!
        I don't see how this has anything to do with this.

        The guy didn't CLEARLY state (or at least say this in his OP) that the links would be removed if payment stopped.

        Your cable company lets you know that if you don't pay your cable will be disconnected BEFORE you even activate your service. Clearly these are two different issues.

        The guy/gal was providing a link BUILDING service... not a link subscription service. If he wasn't clear its his own fault. Not his customers.
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  • Profile picture of the author BloggingPro
    Ok... lots of good replies here. I definitely wish you would have found a different avenue to ask this question because in my opinion you have shot yourself in the foot. It's going to take months for you to rebuild your reputation... especially if you wish to provide services on this very forum.

    Now I have paid for subscription link services before. However, in the sales letter it was CLEARLY pointed out to me that if I stopped paying my links would be removed. If this was not in your sales letter than it is very unethical for you to do so.

    What you want to do is nothing strange or out of the ordinary. There are plenty of "High PageRank Homepage Link" services that you can pay a monthly fee for and have your links placed on high PR homepages. Once you cancel the service your links are removed.

    Again, these services CLEARLY point this out to potential customers in the beginning.

    Those who are serious about SEO can see the value of this because once you get a site ranked you can then have the subscription service provider point the links to another site with different anchor text. However, you better have your ass covered with other links that are equally as powerful.

    In your case you are clearly providing a service for link building. Once those links are built you leave them up and get more customers, or have repeat customers.

    I hope this (and other posts) clear this up for you. I get the feeling that you simply made an honest assumption about how you are supposed to do business. Unfortunately this is a terrible way to learn your mistake. All you can do now is correct the issue and start building your reputation up again.

    Doesn't even matter if you sell services here. You could promote them in your sig line and if people remember this thread they are going to stay far away from your services. It's time to do some damage control in my opinion.
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  • Profile picture of the author kposs
    It's simple.

    First, charge a fair price for the service you are offering. Don't overcharge or undercharge. People who buy 'cheap' services are often 'cheap' and not really good prospects to begin with.

    Second, you need to define the services you provide in very specific terms. You should not be offering a 'ranking' service. You don't control rankings. Google does. You can, however, offer a backlink service or a search engine optimization service or whatever. Then go further and explain what kind of backlinks you provide, how many, over what timeframe, etc.
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  • Profile picture of the author Fernando Veloso
    So much confusion...

    I have an idea. You all drop the SEO services and target something more tangible. How that sounds?

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  • Profile picture of the author Cee
    Maintaining means to actively do something to keep up the results. If the customer drops your services you don't do any work for them anymore and therefore are not maintaining them on page 1 of google. Your service has ended and it's now up to them to maintain themselves on page 1. This does not mean going out and actively sabotaging previous customers who dared to cancel their service with you. It would be a good idea for you to build a quality and ethical service that will keep it's customers because of a solid reputation for results and ethical business practices.

    I think you've just done some serious harm to your SEO business by posting what you did.
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  • Profile picture of the author JackRT
    I'd suggest creating another Warriorforum account and pretending like you never created this thread...
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