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Is the WSO Gravy Train Coming Off The Rails?

by thesorcerersapprentice
65 replies
I bought a WSO yesterday which was pretty good but there were a few issues that needed sorting out from my perspective. There were also a lot of other questions on the thread which seemed legitimate to me.. some of which had been addressed and some of which hadn't.

With regard to my issues, I submitted 3 tickets... none of which have been answered. Therefore, imagine my surprise when I received an email this afternoon from the vendor announcing that he was on a roll and his new WSO was coming out this evening!

This has led me to consider whether there should be tighter control on how and when WSOs are released to this community. Is it time to put in place some mechanism to ensure that:

a. Products do what they claim?
b. Support mechanisms are in place and able to deal with enquiries?
c. There is a limit to the number of WSOs that any warrior can release within a certain period of time.

Also should all WSOs be submitted to a Senior Warriors Committee for approval first?

Be interested in your thoughts.

Neil
#coming #gravy #rails #train #wso
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    Yeah, the volume is going up, but the quality is not necessarily going up as well...
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  • Profile picture of the author Robert M Gouge
    Given the nature of the WSO forum, I think some of the things you mention are out of the control of the WSO forum managers.

    a. Products do what they claim?
    This is hard to enforce unless there are out right lies on the sales page because a lot of the stuff sold through the WSO forum are giving information that will ultimately only be measured by the customer and what effort they put into it. Obviously this doesn't apply for faulty software or things like that.

    b. Support mechanisms are in place and able to deal with enquiries?
    I think WSO forum states that all customer service inquiries are to be made to the vendor directly. How a vendor deals with these is a reflection of the products customer support, since the vendor is responsible for all customer support relating to the product.

    c. There is a limit to the number of WSOs that any warrior can release within a certain period of time.
    I don' think this would be a wise move for the WSO forum as it would limit revenue generated.

    Also should all WSOs be submitted to a Senior Warriors Committee for approval first?
    This is one reason I've started my review site. An attempt to help address this problem.
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    • Profile picture of the author thesorcerersapprentice
      Originally Posted by Robert M Gouge View Post

      Given the nature of the WSO forum, I think some of the things you mention are out of the control of the WSO forum managers.

      a. Products do what they claim?
      This is hard to enforce unless there are out right lies on the sales page because a lot of the stuff sold through the WSO forum are giving information that will ultimately only be measured by the customer and what effort they put into it. Obviously this doesn't apply for faulty software or things like that.

      b. Support mechanisms are in place and able to deal with enquiries?
      I think WSO forum states that all customer service inquiries are to be made to the vendor directly. How a vendor deals with these is a reflection of the products customer support, since the vendor is responsible for all customer support relating to the product.

      c. There is a limit to the number of WSOs that any warrior can release within a certain period of time.
      I don' think this would be a wise move for the WSO forum as it would limit revenue generated.

      Also should all WSOs be submitted to a Senior Warriors Committee for approval first?
      This is one reason I've started my review site. An attempt to help address this problem.
      You make some excellent points Robert and I agree that at present the responsibility lies firmly with the vendor to ensure that the product and service is up to standard. However, does the WF have a moral (and perhaps even legal) responsibility to ensure that these things are taken into account?
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      • Profile picture of the author Robert M Gouge
        Originally Posted by thesorcerersapprentice View Post

        You make some excellent points Robert and I agree that at present the responsibility lies firmly with the vendor to ensure that the product and service is up to standard. However, does the WF have a moral (and perhaps even legal) responsibility to ensure that these things are taken into account?
        I think these issues are growing pains of the WSO forum. While it's popularity continues to grow, I think it will naturally evolve and certain protection features and screening processes will probably be implemented (but this is just speculation). In the meantime, users like you and I can only help police the forum and hold the vendors accountable in our public reviews here or elsewhere.

        If you feel you've been scammed, I'm pretty sure requesting a refund and issuing a complaint to WSO moderators is in order.
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        • Profile picture of the author x3xsolxdierx3x
          It's unfortunate that those who sell products as WSOs wouldn't want to provide support to those who need help with any aspect of applying their methods. You can't 'make' people provide support, but, I would think, sellers would want to do anything within their power to see their customers succeed.
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        • Profile picture of the author thesorcerersapprentice
          Originally Posted by Robert M Gouge View Post

          I think these issues are growing pains of the WSO forum. While it's popularity continues to grow, I think it will naturally evolve and certain protection features and screening processes will probably be implemented (but this is just speculation). In the meantime, users like you and I can only help police the forum and hold the vendors accountable in our public reviews here or elsewhere.

          If you feel you've been scammed, I'm pretty sure requesting a refund and issuing a complaint to WSO moderators is in order.
          Actually I don't feel like I have been scammed Robert... as I said the product is actually pretty good. I just feel that the same standards of customer service should apply here as anywhere else. There is a LOT of money being made from WSOs and for those that deliver the complete package then best of luck to them. But with the legal spotlight very much on online/affiliate marketing at the moment I would hate to see the majority suffer for want of a little regulation.
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  • Profile picture of the author mosthost
    If the quality gets too low, the marketplace will die. Strict compliance and consistent enforcement is a must.
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  • Profile picture of the author Chris W. Sutton
    Originally Posted by thesorcerersapprentice View Post

    I bought a WSO yesterday which was pretty good but there were a few issues that needed sorting out from my perspective. There were also a lot of other questions on the thread which seemed legitimate to me.. some of which had been addressed and some of which hadn't.

    With regard to my issues, I submitted 3 tickets... none of which have been answered. Therefore, imagine my surprise when I received an email this afternoon from the vendor announcing that he was on a roll and his new WSO was coming out this evening!

    This has led me to consider whether there should be tighter control on how and when WSOs are released to this community. Is it time to put in place some mechanism to ensure that:

    a. Products do what they claim?
    b. Support mechanisms are in place and able to deal with enquiries?
    c. There is a limit to the number of WSOs that any warrior can release within a certain period of time.

    Also should all WSOs be submitted to a Senior Warriors Committee for approval first?

    Be interested in your thoughts.

    Neil
    Who would have time to be on the committee? I can't begin to imagine anyone having the time to do something like that.

    You know, the WF WSO thread is just like everywhere else you buy something... you need to know who you are dealing with.

    You get to know those people who offer quality products. You read the reviews carefully. You assess the claims they make. You check their profile for infractions. If I don't know the person, I will go to Google and type in "Johnny Doe" and see what I can find out about the person. You would be surprised. Basically, you have to use your due diligence! AND THEN... well, there's still no guarantees!

    It's not the WSO thread that's the problem! ANYWHERE there is money being made, you will find people trying to scam the system.
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    • Profile picture of the author thesorcerersapprentice
      Originally Posted by Chris W. Sutton View Post

      Who would have time to be on the committee? I can't begin to imagine anyone having the time to do something like that.

      Maybe that should be part of the process though with the committee being compensated and which the vendor has to pay for.


      You get to know those people who offer quality products. You read the reviews carefully. You assess the claims they make. You check their profile for infractions. If I don't know the person, I will go to Google and type in "Johnny Doe" and see what I can find out about the person. You would be surprised. Basically, you have to use your due diligence! AND THEN... well, there's still no guarantees!

      With all the..buy now before the price goes up..only 2 left products this just doesn't happen. You can see that from the threads. Besides I am pretty sure that is not the experienced warriors that are buying most of the WSOs it is the newbies that don't know any better.

      .
      Please see my thoughts above.
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  • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
    Banned
    Originally Posted by thesorcerersapprentice View Post

    This has led me to consider whether there should be tighter control on how and when WSOs are released to this community. Is it time to put in place some mechanism to ensure that:

    a. Products do what they claim?
    b. Support mechanisms are in place and able to deal with enquiries?
    c. There is a limit to the number of WSOs that any warrior can release within a certain period of time.

    Also should all WSOs be submitted to a Senior Warriors Committee for approval first?
    I hear you ... and understand where you're coming from.

    But, in my opinion, the answer's no: it wouldn't be desirable, feasible or reasonable to expect the forum to do any of this.

    They're selling advertising space - pure and simple. You can't expect people selling advertising space themselves to get involved in or to take responsibility for the quality/service involved in the goods/services advertised, really, can you?

    Ok, if there are obvious frauds, breaches of copyrights, scams, etc. etc., they do act over that, when people provide evidence (and, rightly, it has to be pretty conclusive evidence).

    Can one really ask for more than this? :confused:

    Who should the "Senior Warriors Committee" be and what if they make mistakes? Whose "responsibility" is that going to be? Who's going to judge the situations when people scream (as they will) that it's all a matter of opinion (which a lot of it is) and that they've been unfairly treated? And who's going to compensate Allen for the dramatic loss of revenue that that might all produce?

    I've never offered a WSO, myself ... and probably wouldn't, at all, under those circumstances. Not because I think my work would be rejected for approval, but because I'd resent having to show it to people (about whom I have no say, and they're not customers) in order to be "allowed to advertise it". I wouldn't (realistically) have to do that anywhere else, and I wouldn't want to have to do it here.

    Just my perspective.
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    • Profile picture of the author Robert M Gouge
      Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post


      Who should the "Senior Warriors Committee" be and what if they make mistakes? Whose "responsibility" is that going to be? Who's going to judge the situations when people scream (as they will) that it's all a matter of opinion (which a lot of it is) and that they've been unfairly treated? And who's going to compensate Allen for the dramatic loss of revenue that that might all produce?
      I agree with this. I think any form of regulatory team would breed massive amounts of trouble for the WSO forum. Favoritism and conspiracy theories would start running rampant. And, like you've said, a review of a product is largely an opinion anyway.
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      • Profile picture of the author thesorcerersapprentice
        Originally Posted by Robert M Gouge View Post

        I agree with this. I think any form of regulatory team would breed massive amounts of trouble for the WSO forum. Favoritism and conspiracy theories would start running rampant. And, like you've said, a review of a product is largely an opinion.
        Perhaps I have not made myself clear here guys. By review of a product I don't mean a subjective review of the worth/quality I meant more along the lines of what happens when you submit a product to clickbank... Someone makes sure that the product is prima face ok. In that respect how is the WF different to CB...apart from the obvious that the WF is a 'members club'?
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        • Profile picture of the author Robert M Gouge
          Originally Posted by thesorcerersapprentice View Post

          Perhaps I have not made myself clear here guys. By review of a product I don't mean a subjective review of the worth/quality I meant more along the lines of what happens when you submit a product to clickbank... Someone makes sure that the product is prima face ok. In that respect how is the WF different to CB...apart from the obvious that the WF is a 'members club'?
          My apologies if I'm missing your point.

          Isn't this type of review already in place to ensure actual products are put in WSOs as opposed to 1 page pdf link farms or other bad practices?

          I think the problem is that at some point the tighter a quality control review is on submissions, the more it will become subjective. Both limiting income for the WSO forum and vendors alike. I imagine this is already a difficult line for them to balance on.

          I do think I see what you are saying, I'm just not sure how the warrior forum can be accountable for such things past a certain point. Especially customer service for products listed in the WSO forum.
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          • Profile picture of the author thesorcerersapprentice
            Originally Posted by Robert M Gouge View Post

            My apologies if I'm missing your point.

            Isn't this type of review already in place to ensure actual products are put in WSOs as opposed to 1 page pdf link farms or other bad practices?

            I think the problem is that at some point the tighter a quality control review is on submissions, the more it will become subjective. Both limiting income for the WSO forum and vendors alike. I imagine this is already a difficult line for them to balance on.

            I do think see what you are saying, I'm just not sure how the warrior forum can be accountable for such things past a certain point. Especially customer service for products listed in the WSO forum.
            I suppose what I am saying Robert is that the WSO system has an obligation to ensure that the buyers of products that are sold through its forum (and which it makes a profit on) are looked after properly. Therefore, is it reasonable for anyone to launch 2 WSOs within 72 hours for example? Perhaps the answer is yes if that person has the support systems in place to deal with the inevitable issues that arise. What I am saying here is that these are the sort of questions that should be being asked before a WSO is able to go live.
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            • Profile picture of the author Johnny Slater
              Originally Posted by thesorcerersapprentice View Post

              I suppose what I am saying Robert is that the WSO system has an obligation to ensure that the buyers of products that are sold through its forum (and which it makes a profit on) are looked after properly.
              The Warrior Forum is under NO obligation to the buyers of WSO's as has been stated many many times by Allen. It has always been "buyer beware" and will continue to be.

              The only obligation of the forum is to weed out clear cases of scams which is already in place. If you have been scammed by a WSO you can report it to the help desk with proof. If you show actual proof then the WSO is usually taken down.
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  • Profile picture of the author LB
    Originally Posted by thesorcerersapprentice View Post

    I bought a WSO yesterday which was pretty good but there were a few issues that needed sorting out from my perspective. There were also a lot of other questions on the thread which seemed legitimate to me.. some of which had been addressed and some of which hadn't.

    With regard to my issues, I submitted 3 tickets... none of which have been answered. Therefore, imagine my surprise when I received an email this afternoon from the vendor announcing that he was on a roll and his new WSO was coming out this evening!

    This has led me to consider whether there should be tighter control on how and when WSOs are released to this community. Is it time to put in place some mechanism to ensure that:

    a. Products do what they claim?
    b. Support mechanisms are in place and able to deal with enquiries?
    c. There is a limit to the number of WSOs that any warrior can release within a certain period of time.

    Also should all WSOs be submitted to a Senior Warriors Committee for approval first?

    Be interested in your thoughts.

    Neil
    See bold above...3 tickets in 24 hours seems rather demanding to jump to conclusions, no?

    Furthermore, is a day sufficient time to meet any of your points? I would argue no.

    Let's not forget that most sellers here are happy to offer a guarantee even though there's no shortage of "warriors" that buy everything and refund it 10 minutes later. For every bad or subpar WSO there are hundreds of serial refunders here making the rounds. And let's not forget some of the insane comments people leave in WSO threads.

    I would argue that the WSO forum is extremely buyer-centric. I don't know what more you want.
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    • Profile picture of the author thesorcerersapprentice
      Originally Posted by LB View Post

      See bold above...3 tickets in 24 hours seems rather demanding to jump to conclusions, no?

      How do you know that when you dont know what the questions were? And for the record it was 3 different technical issues not just me bitching about the same thing 3 times.

      Furthermore, is a day sufficient time to meet any of your points? I would argue no.

      See above

      Let's not forget that most sellers here are happy to offer a guarantee even though there's no shortage of "warriors" that buy everything and refund it 10 minutes later. For every bad or subpar WSO there are hundreds of serial refunders here making the rounds. And let's not forget some of the insane comments people leave in WSO threads.

      I would argue that the WSO forum is extremely buyer-centric. I don't know what more you want.
      The point is if they can't answer the support tickets, why are they launching another WSO? And I am not saying the WSO was bad... if it was I would have asked for a refund. The point I am making is that there were problems (evidenced by 7 pages of questions/responses) which should have been sorted before the person was able to release another WSO.
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      • Profile picture of the author Robert M Gouge
        Originally Posted by thesorcerersapprentice View Post

        The point is if they can't answer the support tickets, why are they launching another WSO? And I am not saying the WSO was bad... if it was I would have asked for a refund. The point I am making is that there were problems (evidenced by 7 pages of questions/responses) which should have been sorted before the person was able to release another WSO.
        Without knowing what type of service/product you ordered, I'd hazard to guess this was the fault of the product vendor. If they had 7 pages of issues, they should have had the foresight to issue review copies or get beta testers. This doesn't fall under the responsibility of the WSO forum.

        As for them issuing another WSO with standing issues regarding customer support on their first WSO, if WF isn't responsible for each products customer support, how are they to deny a person from releasing a WSO that passed submission guidelines?

        If you follow a link from a site like tomshardware.com or whatever and purchase a product from microsoft, and microsoft doesn't respond to your customer support requests, do you hold tomshardware accountable?

        I don't disagree with you that there are issues that arise with certain WSOs or that the issues you raise with the WSO in question aren't valid.

        It's one reason I've started my site and have no doubt that once I get the ball rolling I'll be fielding more reviews than I can handle.

        I just think that the warrior forum, as a marketing medium, can only protect you to a certain extent and anything after that is always going to fall on the shoulders of the vendor.

        Does it suck that the product vendor bit off more than he could chew support wise? Absolutely. It hinders your experience as a customer.

        Should warrior forum move in and police his business for him because of this? I don't think so.

        If I had a WSO issued and I was having customer support issues, I'd be pretty angry if the WSO forum discontinued all my WSO's until the issues were resolved. Considering this may be the only WSO I have that actually requires customer support.

        However, I would expect all these problems to hinder my business due to the bad publicity my WSOs would get as a result of all the issues posted by customers.
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  • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
    Originally Posted by thesorcerersapprentice View Post

    Is it time to put in place some mechanism to ensure that:
    NO.

    Right now, we have the typical summer glut of WSOs. This happened last year, too. And the year before. It will probably happen again next year.

    The specifics may have changed - they're all on WSO Pro and heavily promoted via affiliates this year - but the general lack of due diligence and failure to do a good job is normal.

    These vendors tend to self-destruct rapidly.
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    • Profile picture of the author thesorcerersapprentice
      Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

      NO.

      The specifics may have changed - they're all on WSO Pro and heavily promoted via affiliates this year - but the general lack of due diligence and failure to do a good job is normal.
      But this is precisely the point of the whole thread...how long can this continue for before someone gets seriously pi****d off and ruins it for everyone?
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      • Profile picture of the author Tina Golden
        No one can ruin it for everyone else. The WF advertising sections are just like the classified ads in the newspapers - the paper has no legal or moral responsibility to screen each and every offer. Neither does the forum.

        I'm curious about one point in the OP. You say that there are 7 pages of questions, some answered and some not. How many pages were there when you bought? Because if you bought after seeing those unanswered questions, can you really blame anyone but yourself?
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      • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
        Originally Posted by thesorcerersapprentice View Post

        how long can this continue for before someone gets seriously pi****d off and ruins it for everyone?
        Like, say, by demanding higher standards to release a WSO?

        That would ruin it for an awful lot of people, you know.
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    • Profile picture of the author High Horsepower
      Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

      NO.

      Right now, we have the typical summer glut of WSOs. This happened last year, too. And the year before. It will probably happen again next year.

      The specifics may have changed - they're all on WSO Pro and heavily promoted via affiliates this year - but the general lack of due diligence and failure to do a good job is normal.

      These vendors tend to self-destruct rapidly.
      Summer, ha? I would have thought summer would be slower with people going on vacations. Does that mean a lot of kids are posting WSO's.
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  • Profile picture of the author E. Brian Rose
    Have you ever heard the phrase caveat emptor?

    The responsibility of weeding out quality products from crap always lies with the buyer. Walmart has a lot of good stuff on their shelves, but they have a lot that doesn't do what you would expect either.

    I am certainly not encouraging sellers to market crap, but I am encouraging buyers to post honest reviews, without the fear of retaliation, and ask for refunds when they have been lied to.

    You will learn quickly who to trust and who not to trust.

    On the other hand, buying a system and half assing the method is no reason for a buyer to cry foul on the seller.
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  • Profile picture of the author oda
    With the amount of WSO's on Making a WSO it is no surprise to see that many people have thrown a product together and started to sell it.

    NO WHERE in a WSO creation report have I seen the support network, customer back up etc explained to people.

    They just get the make 4 videos from articles, zip it up and charge $7 for it with a Bigger 20 video package on the backend part of the course.

    I have to say that the support from some of the biggest WSO sellers is Horrible, so maybe someone needs to do one on "how to create a support network for your customers so as not to piss them off and ruin it for everyone else"

    I too have launched products (Not wso) and forgot all about support.

    Sometimes people need reminding that part of a sale is service!

    cheers

    ODA
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    • Profile picture of the author Rob Howard
      Originally Posted by oda View Post

      With the amount of WSO's on Making a WSO it is no surprise to see that many people have thrown a product together and started to sell it.

      NO WHERE in a WSO creation report have I seen the support network, customer back up etc explained to people.
      Because that stuff doesn't sell.

      As said as it is - anything even remotely related to "business building" - infrastructure, support, the tech side, planning, business building, financial stuff...

      All of it is unsaleable to this audience.

      Why?

      It's work. The implication that you have CUSTOMERS to take care of means that you can't just buy a piece of sh%% PLR product, slap it up on the forum and make cash.


      Rob
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      • Profile picture of the author Kay King
        Some in this thread need to read the stickies at the top of the WSO section. A few excerpts are below.

        ... it pays to use common sense here just as it does anywhere else on the Internet.

        ...If you have a question about a WSO ask the seller before you buy. The seller's forum history, profile, and what they have posted is available for members to research and evaluate.

        ... the forum does not review, recommend, or confirm the content of WSOs, and disclaims all responsibility for whether they live up to their promises

        ...If By Chance You Do Get Scammed By Someone The Problem Is Between You And Them. Not The Forum. Not The MOD's. And Not The Forum Owner.

        ...You have zero protection in here just like you have zero protection on the rest of the Internet.
        The rules are straight forward - clear - and apply to all of us.

        kay
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        • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
          Neil,
          In that respect how is the WF different to CB...apart from the obvious that the WF is a 'members club'?
          Look at their terms of service. Clickbank is the actual seller of the product. They're not just processing payments or selling ad space. That is a very significant distinction, from both legal and practical perspectives.

          The forum sells ad space on a flat rate system. Not percentages of sales or other commission-based plans. Flat rate, same cost for everyone.

          The notion of having a product review squad has been suggested hundreds of times over the years. It sounds good, until you think about the logistics. First, you'd have to get a group of people who knew enough about all aspects of marketing online to be qualified to pass judgment on every type of product and who'd be willing to spend the time. Not going to happen.

          And you'd get the issues that would come from having different people with different subjective standards offering reviews. The inevitable variances would be seen as some form of conspiracy or favoritism, when they really amounted to nothing but differences in personal preferences about ways of presenting information.

          If the forum previewed every product and passed even a basic judgment on them prior to approving offers, that would give the appearance of endorsement, which would make people less prone to careful consideration of their purchases. That's a nightmare in the making.

          As far as the question of outstanding issues being resolved prior to being allowed to post another offer... How would the people handling WSO approvals be expected to track such things? And whose statements would they be expected to believe? I saw an instance recently in which a customer went batspit crazy in a WSO thread, making all sorts of nasty comments about the seller, only to turn around and post that the product was fine, but that he'd gotten slightly slower service than he expected.

          He actually posted a testimonial after all that madness.

          Or the guy who pounded the report button and posted slams in one WSO thread for three days, only to realize after bashing someone's offer into the ground that he was slamming the wrong seller. The offer he was ranting about had no connection at all to the thread in which he was ranting.

          These are not unusual occurrences.

          If someone is actually scamming the members and we get sufficient evidence of it, we will remove them. Beyond that, it's up to buyers to make wise decisions.

          People often post threads like this, expecting that there is something we can/should do to make sure there's zero risk of dissatisfaction on the customers' part when buying a WSO. That is simply not possible. The number of variables is too great, and the steps necessary to even begin to address them would make selling in that section so expensive that only a tiny number of people could afford it.


          Paul
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        • Profile picture of the author High Horsepower
          Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

          Some in this thread need to read the stickies at the top of the WSO section. A few excerpts are below.

          The rules are straight forward - clear - and apply to all of us.

          kay
          Read, what a concept. So many morons asking for FREE reviews copies of a WSO (against Allens rules), even when 3 pages deep and 500 people have already paid.

          Posting comments and they haven't purchased the WSO

          Can I have the original price when launched 5 days ago, I just got paid today?

          Repeating the same questions 50,000x

          Sometimes I'm not sure how these WSO sellers can deal with such crap.
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      • Profile picture of the author Vanessa Reece
        Originally Posted by ccmusicman View Post

        Because that stuff doesn't sell.

        As said as it is - anything even remotely related to "business building" - infrastructure, support, the tech side, planning, business building, financial stuff...

        All of it is unsaleable to this audience.

        Why?

        It's work.         The implication that you have CUSTOMERS to take care of means that you can't just buy a piece of sh%% PLR product, slap it up on the forum and make cash.


        Rob
        Bravo Rob. I could not have put that better myself. After knowing what I know now about delivering my first WSO do you think I'm remotely interested in bumping it again. Naw - not at all for the very reasons you've stated.

        Even with a jam packed product which does offer after support ongoing some people are still sniffing it's no longer introductory $7 which was majorly low anyway. And in one case someone obviously has tried to buck the system and shaft me anyway.


        But my point is the wso's that actually give huge value and require the buyer actually puts those things into use are completely lost over the majority of hype.

        I'm not counting some great service providers who promote through WSO. I don't need to mention names but their reps speak for themselves.

        Maybe I should have offered a service instead I don't know? I decided to teach what I've learned with my own business including all the boring stuff like back office and back it up with giving people my LinkedIn so they could see I was a business owner who has satisfied clients.

        "You mean you're not just ripping off business owners Vanessa?" Funnily enough that isn't my style. Neither is sitting on my behind hoping for magic pills to kick in.
        I know there is profit in my niche to be made but its a bit more complex than just sticking up a website or whatever.

        I was looking at Sam England and Bill Platt's recent WSO offer the other day. Which I have bookmarked to come back to. They both have a ton of experience worth much more than they are charging for their WSO. They don't have to use sales hype and their copy is simple. But I guess that's not enough for some people. :rolleyes:

        I don't begrudge the WSO forum. I learnt tons from my personal experience.
        I think there are some excellent looking WSO's on there which I intend to pick up in due course. I've purchased some great ones and not so great ones too.
        Mostly though, unless it's a service discount offer, a quick money making strategy or have major JV backing chances are it won't sell well. There are exceptions to this of course.

        I've read stories of many warriors here who've offered great WSO's and they have tanked. I'd wager that possibly they avoided the hype with no JV endorsement and left out all the dollar signs you could make.

        I don't think it needs a panel to moderate the WSO's. I think that's actually insulting to buyers. I don't need people to tell me to use common sense and check people's rep. I can do that by myself. If I make a dud purchase that person can only fool me once.

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    • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
      Originally Posted by oda View Post

      NO WHERE in a WSO creation report have I seen the support network, customer back up etc explained to people.
      If your customer is not happy, and you cannot make the customer happy, refund the money.

      There you go.
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    • Profile picture of the author Net Solutions
      Banned
      Originally Posted by oda View Post

      With the amount of WSO's on Making a WSO it is no surprise to see that many people have thrown a product together and started to sell it.

      NO WHERE in a WSO creation report have I seen the support network, customer back up etc explained to people.

      They just get the make 4 videos from articles, zip it up and charge $7 for it with a Bigger 20 video package on the backend part of the course.

      I have to say that the support from some of the biggest WSO sellers is Horrible, so maybe someone needs to do one on "how to create a support network for your customers so as not to piss them off and ruin it for everyone else"

      I too have launched products (Not wso) and forgot all about support.

      Sometimes people need reminding that part of a sale is service!

      cheers

      ODA
      I just bought my first wso and received excellent support from the vendor. I guess I got lucky in that aspect..
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  • Profile picture of the author John Romaine
    Id like to consider offering one of my products as a WSO, but am fearful. It seems to be a viscious dog fight in there.
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      John,
      Id like to consider offering one of my products as a WSO, but am fearful. It seems to be a viscious dog fight in there.
      Not for most offers. The real problems tend to be limited to the offers that make extreme promises or are in certain fields, like backlinks or "guaranteed income sites built for you."

      It's a lot quieter in there than you'd think if you look at the threads that focus on complaints.


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    • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
      Originally Posted by ramone_johnny View Post

      Id like to consider offering one of my products as a WSO, but am fearful. It seems to be a viscious dog fight in there.
      What in hells name have you got to be worried about a viscious dog fight for?

      Or is your avatar "Actual size"?



      Get in there and sell it Johnny, any nonsense and you can give them a slap.
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      • Profile picture of the author John Romaine
        Originally Posted by Richard Van View Post

        What in hells name have you got to be worried about a viscious dog fight for?

        Or is your avatar "Actual size"?



        Get in there and sell it Johnny, any nonsense and you can give them a slap.
        Oh, I didnt know we could slap people in the WSO section.

        Awesome!
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  • Profile picture of the author bhuff85
    Point blank - if there is a problem with customer support from a particular seller of a WSO and you don't necessarily want a refund (as the product was "fine"), there are two things you could do:

    1) Blacklist that particular seller in your memory bank and remind yourself to never do business with them again, or

    2) Give them some more time to respond. I have to agree that 3 support tickets in less than a day is a bit much, regardless of what they are doing on the backend (i.e. launching another WSO)

    The WSO section is like any other storefront - you're going to have good products backed by good support from certain sellers, whereas there will be others that are sub-par and provide little to no support. But again, like everyone else mentioned, it is your job to weed through these WSO's and find the sellers and products that suit you best.

    Will you run into some bumps and hiccups along the way? Absolutely. I can tell you there have been plenty of products that I've purchased OFFLINE that I've had problems with and when I needed customer support, I got an automated machine rambling off menu options that didn't pertain to my problem, all without a chance to speak to a live operator. And then, there are some I've bought that I may have had a question on and spoke with a live rep on the first ring.

    The problem with IM products is that when one thing doesn't go right, people begin to think it's a scam. Someone didn't answer an e-mail within 2 minutes? SCAM! You didn't get you download link 0.5 milliseconds after you ordered? SCAM! It's crazy how one small thing can start tipping the scales in IM. If your pizza was delivered 5 minutes past the quoted delivery time, that wouldn't be a scam, would it? (maybe a slight inconvenience, especially when your belly is grumbling for all of that grease and cheese ).

    We can all argue about it until we're blue in the face, but in the end, you will still continue to see sellers who provide poor support and others who overdeliver. It's up to you, unfortunately, to find the one's that work best for you and your end goal.
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  • Profile picture of the author jacktackett
    Use the search feature to see previous disscussions on this topic. Also, let this topicoutof hand and thepowers that be may just drop wso sectionas too riskor more likely too muchof a PITA.
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  • Profile picture of the author marketerscry
    The only way to make it in this industry is to keep your list happy and from the sounds of it, this guy wont have a list much longer. Problem solved...
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  • Profile picture of the author TrafficGuy Claude
    I wish Allen would raise the prices again.

    I loved it when it raised it from $20 to $40, it was all good for a while. The forum slowed down, the crap stopped being posted, and nearly every WSO in there was of good quality.

    But now as the dollar itself is growing weaker and the forum has nearly quadrupled in members since then, and we're seeing the same thing happen all over again.

    Allen please raise the prices! $100 per bump at least...

    This would keep nearly all of the rifraff out, slow the WSO forum down considerably, and increase the quality of the products all in one swoop.

    The fly-by-nighters will never risk a C-note on some rehashed PLR report for $7.

    Vendors would be forced to charge more for their products to turn a profit, which means they'd have to add a lot more value to them.

    All the WSOs available would have to be of good quality otherwise they'd die quickly because they wouldn't be turning a profit for the vendors.

    This would return the WSO board to its previous glory status.

    And to any doubters, please don't tell me that its unfair to new people or broke marketers.

    It should be unfair to new people and broke marketers.

    Newbies, intermediates, and broke marketers with no idea how to create good information products and offer great services shouldn't be trying to sell on here anyway. They are the ones polluting the forum.

    When the customers are getting too many bad WSOs, this is tarnishing the reputation of the good WSOs by association.

    One bad apple always ruins the bunch, and the ratio of good apples to bad apples on the WSO board is in danger of teetering to a negative state unless something is done.

    Raise the prices Allen, Raise 'Em!

    The good marketers will gladly pay for ad spots that are going to get sufficient exposure instead of being pushed off of the first page within 2 hours, and your daily profits won't suffer one bit. In fact I think you'd make more money
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  • Profile picture of the author timpears
    If you buy a WSO and find the product or support not what it should be, then post your review to the thread. If that happens enough, the vendor(s) will get the picture. Lousy reviews tend to have an effect on sales. As long as you are being honest, the poor review is justified.
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  • Profile picture of the author Troy Broussard
    Personally, I don't like more moderation. In the end, the buyers will determine the success or failure of the WSO's and vote with their wallets and that's really the way it should be.

    More regulation and/or moderation, just impedes the good guys and will end up costing everyone more in increased fees or something to cover the extra overhead created.

    I say let the users vote with their wallet...
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  • Profile picture of the author Andy Fletcher
    Last night I was driving home from work and drove past a billboard advertising a local burger joint. I was tired and hungry so i though,"why not."

    Unfortunately, they burned my burger, the bun was stale and the fries had clearly been sat out for ages. I asked to speak to the manager and was told he was out for the evening. I asked who I could speak to and got some 17 year old who didn't even let me finish describing the issues before he told me there was nothing he could do and I should just stop causing a scene, pay my bill and leave...

    Billboard companies should regulate this kind of b/s
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  • Profile picture of the author WillR
    It doesn't matter how many rules you put in place, there are always going to be those products that are better than others. As consumers it is up to US to control the marketplace and weed out those who are providing the crap products and crap service. We do this by asking for refunds whenever a product does not contain the information that was promised and/or leaving an honest review on the WSO thread. By the way, it doesn't matter if the seller has a money back guarantee or not - if the product does not deliver on its promises then you have every right to request a refund.

    As someone else stated, those who put out rubbish won't last very long anyway - and it just makes the rest of us look that much better. I say leave the idiots alone. They are more than capable of digging their own holes.
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    • Profile picture of the author bretski
      Originally Posted by WillR View Post

      As someone else stated, those who put out rubbish won't last very long anyway - and it just makes the rest of us look that much better. I say leave the idiots alone. They are more than capable of digging their own holes.
      This pretty much says it all. I've actually seen some very good and capable folks take a beating on a wso... flamed to hell and back when a product just wasn't quite up to snuff. The system pretty much does take care of itself...
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  • Profile picture of the author thesorcerersapprentice
    Thank you very much for all your thoughts guys and girls a lot of good points made.

    I would like to make it clear that I am not saying that the product was crap or that it was a scam. I was merely questioning the service and the fact that there are no checks and balances in place to make sure that vendors deliver a good service.

    These questions have been well and truly answered lol. For the record I have bought lots of WSOs and most over-deliver.

    Thank you for your input.

    Neil
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  • Profile picture of the author Ralf Skirr
    Originally Posted by thesorcerersapprentice View Post

    I bought a WSO yesterday...

    With regard to my issues, I submitted 3 tickets... none of which have been answered. l
    In wonder what the appropriate ticket response time for a WSO vendor is in your opinion. 2 minutes? Or why would you have submitted 3 tickets in 1 day?

    When talking about responsibilities for WSO vendors or even for the owner of the Warrior forum, maybe customers should have some responsibilities too. For example allowing an appropriate response time - it probably wasn't a matter of life and death, was it?

    Ralf
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    • Profile picture of the author thesorcerersapprentice
      Originally Posted by Ralf Skirr View Post

      In wonder what the appropriate ticket response time for a WSO vendor is in your opinion. 2 minutes? Or why would you have submitted 3 tickets in 1 day?

      When talking about responsibilities for WSO vendors or even for the owner of the Warrior forum, maybe customers should have some responsibilities too. For example allowing an appropriate response time - it probably wasn't a matter of life and death, was it?

      Ralf
      To clarify... the 3 issues were 3 different technical (software) issues which stopped the product functioning as advertised (which incidentally was accompanied by the usual....be making money before you finish reading this type of pitch). They were not 3 tickets for the same issue.

      Also the reason for my ire was not only that the tickets hadn't been answered (clearly I don't expect a ticket to be answered straight away) but that I had received an email from the vendor in the afternoon telling me he was 'on a roll and launching another WSO that very evening'.

      Therefore the point of the post, and indeed the thread, was that should a vendor be launching into his next WSO when there were clearly support issues that hadn't been dealt with from the one he had launched on 48 hours before.
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  • Profile picture of the author EvcRo
    WSO "Make 6000$ in 1 hour without doing anything" - you can search for it if you want enough said. Aproval should be a little more tight if you ask me.
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  • Profile picture of the author Fernando Veloso
    Some WSO's are clearly bad, and a couple posts after the sales page you understand it right away.

    There was this one, a couple weeks ago selling "illegal" licenses of software... and when he got caught red handed, he just said "ok, I'll replace the illegal software for a link for a illegal download"...

    So, yeah, some things to adjust in there.
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  • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
    Banned
    Originally Posted by thesorcerersapprentice View Post

    I bought a WSO yesterday which was pretty good but there were a few issues that needed sorting out from my perspective. There were also a lot of other questions on the thread which seemed legitimate to me.. some of which had been addressed and some of which hadn't.

    With regard to my issues, I submitted 3 tickets... none of which have been answered. Therefore, imagine my surprise when I received an email this afternoon from the vendor announcing that he was on a roll and his new WSO was coming out this evening!

    This has led me to consider whether there should be tighter control on how and when WSOs are released to this community. Is it time to put in place some mechanism to ensure that:

    a. Products do what they claim?
    b. Support mechanisms are in place and able to deal with enquiries?
    c. There is a limit to the number of WSOs that any warrior can release within a certain period of time.

    Also should all WSOs be submitted to a Senior Warriors Committee for approval first?

    Be interested in your thoughts.

    Neil
    That's what comments in the threads are for and the help desk if you feel you've been scammed.

    The sheer volume of ads placed on this site are not conducive to mods actually reading/testing every product before placement. That should be obvious. As for Sr. Warriors monitoring ... who wants to give their time for free to monitor WSOs? Not me. I've got businesses to run.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mike McAleer
    I think what we need is a system that allows a equal amount of time for each WSO.

    Sometimes I bump mine and like 10 people bumped within the same 5 minutes.

    Other times, mine is #1 for a good hour.

    This would be hard to implement though.
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  • Profile picture of the author travlinguy
    More rules? Limits to the number of WSOs a member can put up? What would that serve? In addition to being a venue for the exchange of information this forum is a marketplace. And excluding blatant fraud, the market facilitator needs to stand to the side.

    You're suggesting that the WF ensure that products "do what they claim?" Interesting. How would you determine this? What standards would you use? Products don't do anything. People need to put the methods to work.

    I've spent a lot of money on various seminars and products over the years and learned something from every last one. Some were excellent. Some simply taught me that I wasn't cut out for the particular business model. And some taught me that I should be more careful when buying into promises of easy riches for little work.

    This is called a learning process. And every time I decided to try a "product" that didn't work it was because I didn't put forth the energy to make it work. I take the responsibility for that.

    I bought two WSOs in April, both software products. Neither even came close to delivering what was promised. I didn't ask for a refund. I simply chalk it up to experience. What did I learn? Simply not to buy from either of those vendors again. And in the future, if I think I "need" something offered as a WSO, I'll ask more questions before buying. My decisions are my responsibility.

    There's a real simple solution to those who continue to complain about their experiences with WSOs. That is to not participate.
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      It ain't broke. The WSO section is bigger and busier than it used to be but has about the same division of...

      10% great info/products
      20% very good products
      20% pretty good products
      50% - crapola and semi-crapola

      Buyers have changed a bit - "I shouldn't have bought that" is now "you shouldn't have let him sell that to me".

      Being a successful IMer means selling stuff every day - not buying stuff every day. Hellllooooo - clue there!
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    • Profile picture of the author Black Hat Cat
      Banned
      Just a little observation that others here seemed to miss.....the OP submitted 3 tickets the same day he purchased, and is basically complaining because they weren't answered instantly. Is it really necessary to revamp the WSO section because of that?
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      • Profile picture of the author thesorcerersapprentice
        Originally Posted by Black Hat Cat View Post

        Just a little observation that others here seemed to miss.....the OP submitted 3 tickets the same day he purchased, and is basically complaining because they weren't answered instantly. Is it really necessary to revamp the WSO section because of that?
        I think you have missed the point Black Hat Cat... The thread wasn't meant to be me bitching about the fact that my support tickets hadn't been answered the same day, it was about whether someone should be allowed to release another WSO so soon after their last one when clearly there were many support issues outstanding.
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  • Profile picture of the author Kneb Knebaih
    I think that we should have some kind of common sense and ethic "moderation" in place.

    Yes, I understand that a total moderation is impossible, but some common sense is mandatory.


    Especially with the "WSO Of The Day" offers.

    I´ve purchased many of them, but I´d say that just 1% live up to its claims, and are indeed good products.

    Not to say that some of them are clearly breaking the WSO posting rules, like bribering buyers with bonuses in exchange of posted reviews...

    The gap between the sales hype and actual product should be adressed properly also, in this case by Mike Lantz himself.

    If I buy a product whose MAIN claim is FREE METHODS, but the first thing you see inside is that you need almost $500 to make it work... well, that´s not free at all.

    DO you think those vendors are changing anything in their sales letters even after people complaining in their threads (me included)? NO.

    So yes, I think there is clearly some things that need improvement, some kind of moderation has to take place here. I understand that this forum is a goldmine to owners, but ethics should be ABOVE and before money.


    The trend I´m seeing right now is that the claims are outrageous, and the reviews are way exagerated. WSO products are rapidly losing the good fame they had in the past. Nowadays is just the opposite.

    I have many friends in other respected forums, even some owners of famous and well respected marketing forums, and everytime we speak about WSOs and the Warrior Forum in general they laughed at, big time.

    Today, the Warrior Forum is being compared to DP (DigitalPoint) forum, and that is a sad fact.


    But I think this is because of so much low quality WSOs and things like the ones I´ve described above.


    : )
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    • Profile picture of the author bretski
      Originally Posted by Kneb Knebaih View Post

      I think that we should have some kind of common sense and ethic "moderation" in place.
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    • Profile picture of the author travlinguy
      Originally Posted by Kneb Knebaih View Post

      I think that we should have some kind of common sense and ethic "moderation" in place.

      Yes, I understand that a total moderation is impossible, but some common sense is mandatory.


      Especially with the "WSO Of The Day" offers.

      I´ve purchased many of them, but I´d say that just 1% live up to its claims, and are indeed good products.

      Not to say that some of them are clearly breaking the WSO posting rules, like bribering buyers with bonuses in exchange of posted reviews...


      The difference between the sales hype and actual product should be adressed properly also, in this case by Mike Lantz itself.

      If I buy a product whose MAIN claim is FREE METHODS, but the first thing you see inside is that you need almost $500 to make it work... well, that´s not free at all.


      DO you think those vendors are changing anything in their sales letters even after people complaining in their threads (me included)? NO.


      So yes, I think there is clearly some things that need improvement, some kind of moderation has to take place here.

      I understand that this forum is a goldmine to owners, but ethics should be ABOVE and before money.



      The trend I´m seeing right now is that the claims are outrageous, and the reviews are way exagerated.

      WSO products are rapidly losing the good fame they had in the past. Nowadays is just the opposite.


      I have many friends in other respected forums, even some owners of famous and well respected marketing forums, and everytime we speak about WSOs and the Warrior Forum in general they laughed at, big time.


      Today, the Warrior Forum is being compared to DP (DigitalPoint) forum, and that is a sad fact.


      But I think this is because of so much low quality WSOs and things like the ones I´ve described above.


      : )
      Interesting post considering your sig links. And I'm not saying you're doing a single thing wrong. What I am saying is this, what if some committee or governing board, or ethics panel decided your claims were too, ah, dramatic? And what if you were told you could no longer advertise your stuff because of the new guidelines? Or maybe you've had your offer up too long, or whatever.

      My point is, when a marketplace is overburdened with regulations everyone suffers, especially the people who play it straight. If such rules were implemented I can imagine that people who pushed for the rules in the first place would actually start complaining that "nothing good ever makes it to the WSO board anymore." Wah... :rolleyes:
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      • Profile picture of the author edlewis
        Am I having "deja vu"....???

        Threads like these pop up every few months....and have for the last...oh...5 years...maybe longer.

        They are generally pointless and try to lump together all WSO's...as if WSO's aren't separate products/offers but one single combined entity - that's just silly.
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      • Profile picture of the author Kneb Knebaih
        Originally Posted by travlinguy View Post

        Interesting post considering your sig links. And I'm not saying you're doing a single thing wrong. What I am saying is this, what if some committee or governing board, or ethics panel decided your claims were too, ah, dramatic? And what if you were told you could no longer advertise your stuff because of the new guidelines? Or maybe you've had your offer up too long, or whatever.

        My point is, when a marketplace is overburdened with regulations everyone suffers, especially the people who play it straight. If such rules were implemented I can imagine that people who pushed for the rules in the first place would actually start complaining that "nothing good ever makes it to the WSO board anymore." Wah... :rolleyes:

        That was not my point.

        I know that a total regulation would be impossible and even unfair to some serious guys.

        I have no problem with my product being reviewed to see if it is up to its claims. And if I don´t pass the review, that´s ok. There´s a whole world outside this forum. My business is not selling WSOs. But I stand behind my WSO or any of its claims.

        I don´t bribe my buyers with extra bonuses if they post a review in my WSO. I don´t lie upfront in my sales copy either.


        BUT if my main claim is that you can do a certain method for "absolute FREE", and after you buy my product you find that you need to purchase tools that will cost you around $500 to make it work... well, I deserve to be moderated and my offer being down until I rewrite the sales copy.

        I am not talking about the usual sales hype in copywriting these days... No. I´m talking about flat out lies and misleading buyers, or doing illegal things to get the quick sale.

        I was not talking about the whole WSO forum, but just the "WSO Of The Day"... I think that those need more moderation, because is like the Warrior Forum itself supposedly recommending the best offers.
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Kneb,

      First thing: The "WSO of the Day," Warrior Plus, and Warrior Pro are Mike's gigs. Challenges with that should be addressed to Mike.

      If you see someone bribing people for testimonials, report them. We take action on those. Also, if you see someone promoting that technique in one of their courses, report them. PM me directly for those if you feel it's necessary.
      DO you think those vendors are changing anything in their sales letters even after people complaining in their threads (me included)? NO.
      "If a member complains in a thread and there's no moderator around to read it, does it make an impact?"

      NO.

      Complaining in their threads does nothing. Report them to the mods (click the little red triangle), and be very specific about what you believe is in violation of the rules. THAT we can do something with.

      The majority of the people I see complaining about how the WSO section is moderated don't bother reporting problems. They seem to assume that we read every post in every thread in every section of the board.

      Clue Time (tm) : We don't.


      Paul
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      Stop by Paul's Pub - my little hangout on Facebook.

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      • Profile picture of the author ExRat
        Hi Paul,

        Some observations I have noticed recently, that I find interesting.

        1.With affiliates promoting WSOs it seems to have gone nuclear - which is fantastic for those benefitting from increased exposure, but I would imagine that for every increase in revenue there is a similar increase in exposure of any problems - and as Kneb pointed out above, even when the forum isn't standing behind WSOs as recommender, it seems to often be taken that way - IE - any fallout seems to reflect on the forum itself and its reputation.

        2.I have also noticed what appears to be an increase of products 'made for WSO' that aren't for sale anywhere else at a higher price (or simply for sale elsewhere at all).

        I've also seen examples where those that are for sale elsewhere, are using some pretty lame tactics to try and stay within that rule, for example a product that has five versions at different prices -

        5 widgets for $10
        10 widgets for $20 etc

        Then in the WSO they offer 1 widget for $1 (which isn't offered on the external offer) and then claim that this makes the WSO 'a special offer for warriors only.'

        3. There seems to have been an increase of training products for newbies where launching a WSO (or multiple WSOs) is a requirement of the course. These are linked to a refund where one of the requirements for a refund is to have 'taken action', therefore they MUST launch X number of WSOs.

        In my opinion, this is guaranteed to 'lower the tone' of the WSO forum, because if the initial WSO sells well, the forum is guaranteed to receive X times X number of WSOs from absolute newbies.

        Just some observations, I hope they are taken in the spirit that they were meant (IE I'm a little concerned, even though it's not really any of my business.)

        Hi Ed,

        Am I having "deja vu"....???

        Threads like these pop up every few months....and have for the last...oh...5 years...maybe longer.

        They are generally pointless and try to lump together all WSO's...as if WSO's aren't separate products/offers but one single combined entity - that's just silly.
        I get your point, but the WSO forum is a single entity in itself, and since the last thread a few months ago, a few things have changed. For example, I think that due to the affiliate program for WSOs, the Main Discussion is less of a point of entry for new members than the WSO forum. I don't think that was the case in the past, but I may be wrong.
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        Roger Davis
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        • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
          Roger,
          Just some observations, I hope they are taken in the spirit they were meant.
          Always. And, for the most part, I agree with what you've said there. The trick is, most of it isn't against the rules.

          Point 3 is a sticky one. If those conditions are stated up front, I have no problem with them. If they're not, the seller may be treading on dangerous ground. Have to see the specifics before I'd comment on the wording.


          Paul
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          Stop by Paul's Pub - my little hangout on Facebook.

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      • Profile picture of the author Kneb Knebaih
        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

        Kneb,

        First thing: The "WSO of the Day," Warrior Plus, and Warrior Pro are Mike's gigs. Challenges with that should be addressed to Mike.

        If you see someone bribing people for testimonials, report them. We take action on those. Also, if you see someone promoting that technique in one of their courses, report them. PM me directly for those if you feel it's necessary."If a member complains in a thread and there's no moderator around to read it, does it make an impact?"

        NO.

        Complaining in their threads does nothing. Report them to the mods (click the little red triangle), and be very specific about what you believe is in violation of the rules. THAT we can do something with.

        The majority of the people I see complaining about how the WSO section is moderated don't bother reporting problems. They seem to assume that we read every post in every thread in every section of the board.

        Clue Time (tm) : We don't.


        Paul


        Totally agree, Paul : )

        I will.
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