Devaluers of IM products

101 replies
Got this interesting email today... I don't really know how I feel about this. Comments?

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Hi Joe,

For over a year now we have watched as some Internet
Marketers have taken Brand New Products and De-valuated
them to the point where no one can make money except the
De-valuer who's only purpose is to make a quick buck.

These De-Valuers Hurt your Business Everyday and need to
be Stopped! Join IMCops.com Today and see some of the
De-Valuers and License Violators like Paul Mihai Pavel , Terry
Jett, Russell Carter and Barbara King. Participate in
discussions on various subjects and help police the IM
Community.

Look at what fellow Internet Marketer Ken Reno said in a
recent Blog post:

There's something going on in the internet marketing
community, something terrible, and it's getting worse.

It's directly affecting you every day, even if you don't know
about it.

I'm talking about product devaluation for digital goods such as
ebooks, software, videos, memberships..etc.

Everyone is in such a rush to make a buck, they forgot to use
some common sense.

People are taking brand new products, and offering them for
pennies. As if that weren't bad enough, they do it the day a
product is released.

Year of The Challenge 2009!
Ken Reno
#devaluers #products
  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
    These De-Valuers Hurt your Business Everyday and need to be Stopped! Join IMCops.com Today
    Nothing against Ken, but I'd avoid this one like the plague. And anything else that called itself IMcops, i-Cop, SpamCop or any other kind of pseudo-"cop."

    The people who start these almost always have the very best of intentions. Still, the best result I've seen has been very minor, at best. The usual is either nothing at all or something that verges on dangerous for the members.

    What next? Little badges showing that you're "duly appointed" to enforce some third party's idea of how contract law is to be administered across multiple jurisdictions, and when the contracts themselves are often illegal?

    Get real.


    Paul
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  • Profile picture of the author David_Thompson
    Originally Posted by FleshJoe2005 View Post

    Got this interesting email today... I don't really know how I feel about this. Comments?

    -------
    Hi Joe,

    For over a year now we have watched as some Internet
    Marketers have taken Brand New Products and De-valuated
    them to the point where no one can make money except the
    De-valuer who's only purpose is to make a quick buck.

    These De-Valuers Hurt your Business Everyday and need to
    be Stopped! Join IMCops.com Today and see some of the
    De-Valuers and License Violators like Paul Mihai Pavel , Terry
    Jett, Russell Carter and Barbara King. Participate in
    discussions on various subjects and help police the IM
    Community.

    Look at what fellow Internet Marketer Ken Reno said in a
    recent Blog post:

    There's something going on in the internet marketing
    community, something terrible, and it's getting worse.

    It's directly affecting you every day, even if you don't know
    about it.

    I'm talking about product devaluation for digital goods such as
    ebooks, software, videos, memberships..etc.

    Everyone is in such a rush to make a buck, they forgot to use
    some common sense.

    People are taking brand new products, and offering them for
    pennies. As if that weren't bad enough, they do it the day a
    product is released.

    Year of The Challenge 2009!
    Ken Reno
    No-offense but this isn't going to go very far like Paul
    said, it's almost impossible to enforce all these rule
    in a global market like the one we are in...

    I've seen a couple sites like these and they just ends
    up collecting cyberdust...

    --David
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  • Profile picture of the author Creditwrench
    Thanks for your tip about imcops.com It looks like a really good board too.
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    • Profile picture of the author tom42357
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      • Profile picture of the author Creditwrench
        Originally Posted by tom42357 View Post

        Let me see if I understand. These bad people are selling their products too cheap
        and so what exactly are people going to do?
        I'm going to google all their names and buy some good info
        for a discount before the cops show up. What kind of uniforms
        do Internet Marketing Cops wear anyway, and where can I visit
        my friends when they get sent to Internet Marketing Jail?
        Good question but in the end you simply have to do whatever you have to do in order to fix your complaints with marketers whatever they may be. Today, reputation is everything and bad news spreads far more quickly than good reports about a marketer do and they tend to stay visible to the public much longer than anything they might put out to counter it.

        On the other hand, complaining about people selling products too cheaply isn't likely to get much attention and especially in light of today's economy where prices are dropping rapidly and will become unbelievably cheap as time goes on. Cash is king these days and one can hardly blame people for doing all they can to save as much of it as possible.
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      • Profile picture of the author candoit2
        Originally Posted by tom42357 View Post

        Let me see if I understand. These bad people are selling their products too cheap
        and so what exactly are people going to do?
        I'm going to google all their names and buy some good info
        for a discount before the cops show up. What kind of uniforms
        do Internet Marketing Cops wear anyway, and where can I visit
        my friends when they get sent to Internet Marketing Jail?
        I can see the sales letters now....

        I wanted to let you have this for only $7 but the imcops are already looking for a reason to lock me up because of the last time I tried to give you a deal. The info in here is worth thousands so the best I can do is $97.

        I'll do my best to keep this deal alive, but even at this price I won't be able to keep the imcops off my back for long.

        Hurry now before I am forced to raise the price to $1,000. I'm risking the wrath of the imcops, so you'll only see this offer one time, then I have to pull all evidence of the low prices I am offering forever. Act now!
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  • Profile picture of the author Tom Dean
    Interesting site. Particularly the snagged pictures from the website of "violators" pasted into an IM Cops wanted graphic for public display.

    One post illustrates some problems that posters could possibly be held accountable for.

    A poster identified/listed someone as a "devaluer" for selling a product for $5. The seller responded by posting a graphic of the rights that include "give away rights". I assume the seller was not to happy with the post.

    I have the same product and give it away as a list builder & to subscribers - it does include give away rights. That's why I purchased it.

    Seems that admin could have their hands full with this site.

    Just my opinion,
    Tom
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  • Profile picture of the author BIG Mike
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    • Profile picture of the author johnedgley
      Look at what fellow Internet Marketer Ken Reno said in a recent Blog post:
      There's something going on in the internet marketing community, something terrible, and it's getting worse.
      It's directly affecting you every day, even if you don't know about it.
      And if this video is to be believed, youtube.com/watch?v=hLmBEEG2Q5I&feature=channel , then it seems that the pot is calling the kettle black....

      My apologies for not posting a live link, apparently I need 15 posts to do so. Perhaps if someone who has that quali deems it worthy they would re-post it.
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      • Profile picture of the author Ken Reno
        Originally Posted by johnedgley View Post

        And if this video is to be believed, youtube.com/watch?v=hLmBEEG2Q5I&feature=channel , then it seems that the pot is calling the kettle black....

        My apologies for not posting a live link, apparently I need 15 posts to do so. Perhaps if someone who has that quali deems it worthy they would re-post it.
        Hi John,

        Thanks for bringing that up...

        Some guy was pissed, and rightfully so - that I sol him stolen graphics...(more on this in a second)...but as for the pot calling the kettle black - I didn't call ANYONE, ANYTHING - this thread was started with an email that I did not write - and did not endorse.

        Back to the graphics...

        I sold over 200 copies of these templates in the videos.

        this guy who made them asked me for a refund, telling PayPal they were stolen.

        I didn't believe it myself, and I tried to issue him a refund, only he couldn't accept money - HIS paypal account was frozen, and COULDN'T receive a refund!

        Then...of course everyone is sending me links to these videos, which shows clearly they were made using STOLEN istock photos with watermarks....

        I've removed them from my site, and issued THOUSANDS of dollars in refunds!

        But..here's the kicker - I bought them HERE - in a WSO - they were "created" by Dylan Jones! I did not create them, nor would I knowingly sell stolen graphics.

        Dylan is not replying to me - so maybe someone can point him here and HE can tell the world why HE sold me (AND other warriors) - these stolen graphics.

        So now you know "the rest of the story". ;-)

        Ken
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        • Profile picture of the author Win Crow
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          • Profile picture of the author Ken Reno
            Originally Posted by Win Crow View Post

            I was personally ready to put this thread to bed, but I when I see inaccurate information I feel the need to chime in.
            If that were the case, you would go by your real name - John Johnson,
            and would claim your videos since you are the one who made them.

            You joined this forum as: KenRenoHater and when deleted said you would come
            back with another name...now you have.

            You're talking about YOURSELF in the 3rd person, disturbing indeed, but at least use your real name ok? When you come here posting about "he" in the 3rd person, while really talking about yourself, you lose all credibility.

            Your WHOLE beef here is about me using copyrighted material...

            Yet YOU are using "kennethreno" as one of your several aliases on YouTube.

            Your name is NOT Kenneth Reno. You are using MY name in your marketing,
            as if it were your own. This is illegal in all 50 states, and I demand that
            you delete your user account "kennethreno".

            You signed your Youtube videos as:

            "Thanks, Winford Crowley, AKA Wichita Wilson, AKA Johnny Jones, AKA Kenny Kansas, AKA KennethRenoSucks, AKA youtube account KennethReno, AKA STFU"
            It's ironic that you accuse me of being a scam artist, yet I use my real name...scam artists usually create numerous aliases(you have at least 10?) - not post their real name and actual office address as I do.

            So...it appears you are NOT concerned about "inaccurate information" and needed to
            "chime in" - because you're not even using your real name, and have created multiple identities
            so you can cheer each other on.

            Sounds like you have a LOT of time on your hands, and not a friend in the world.
            I feel sorry for you - because if you're devoting your life to somehow taint me,
            you're wasting your time when you can't even use your real name.

            You don't have a paypal account, and you refused a postal refund - for $17, calling me a moron, a scam artist, a deformed penis....real mature.

            Now you said I'm your new hobby and you will defame me over Dylan's templates
            to anyone who will listen.

            It's easy for people to do that - like the guy below did with you when you ripped him off and didn't give HIM a refund....and of course I only know this is actually you because I called you at the number on the page here - and you answered - remember my 3 calls to you?

            John Johnson - on Ripoff Report
            Rip-off Report: John Johnson - Targeted Prospecting Rip-Off did not send my product. Internet Texas

            What more do you want besides complaining daily to whoever will listen.

            How about I donate $20 to the Red Cross on your behalf since you can't accept PayPal payments for whatever reason?
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    • Profile picture of the author Leron Ford
      Originally Posted by BIG Mike View Post

      Wait a minute. I'm confused. You sell me the resale rights to a product, which means that I can legally put any price on it I want, right? So what would I be doing wrong?

      You cannot have the best of both worlds. If you do not want people selling your products for pennies, then why the hell are you offering resale rights in the first place?

      Get real....if you don't understand what you're giving away by offering resale rights, you certainly have no right to bitch about it. Period. End of story.

      If anyone is responsible for devaluing the product, it's the original product owner who thought they'd clean up by selling off the resale rights in some combination or another. That's where the problem starts...
      I totally agree with Big Mike. It all starts with the original product owner. If they were serious about not devaluing their product there are several things they could do, including:

      1) Not selling Master Resell Rights (but the more resrictive basic resell rights)

      2) Not allowing the product to be included in paid membership sites

      3) Not allowing the product to be included as a bonus to a paid product

      4) Use the $7 secrets script or RAP and pay 100% commissions to the referrer.

      Those are just a few ideas off the top of my head. Nothing you haven't heard of before.

      Thanks,

      Leron
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      • Profile picture of the author Kay King
        Everyone is in such a rush to make a buck, they forgot to use
        some common sense.

        People are taking brand new products, and offering them for
        pennies. As if that weren't bad enough, they do it the day a
        product is released.
        And it starts with the product creator who sells RR and MRR to make the most pennies for himself. I'm always put off when someone uses a word like "de-valuer" or calls on marketers to police anything.

        If you sell or give rights to your product - the shelf life doesn't go far beyond the launch. That's the reality. If you don't like it - protect your own products.

        kay
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    • Profile picture of the author Denise Hall
      Originally Posted by BIG Mike View Post

      Wait a minute. I'm confused. You sell me the resale rights to a product, which means that I can legally put any price on it I want, right? So what would I be doing wrong?

      You cannot have the best of both worlds. If you do not want people selling your products for pennies, then why the hell are you offering resale rights in the first place?

      Get real....if you don't understand what you're giving away by offering resale rights, you certainly have no right to bitch about it. Period. End of story.

      If anyone is responsible for devaluing the product, it's the original product owner who thought they'd clean up by selling off the resale rights in some combination or another. That's where the problem starts...

      Well said, Big Mike!

      If a product creator complained at the IMCops site that their product had been devalued because the license terms weren't being followed, then that would be a legitimate complaint. But the owner of the site has proclaimed himself the IM Cop, and makes his posts based on what he sees or what someone else tells him.

      He doesn't contact the product creators to find out their side of the story - i.e. if it bothers them that their product is selling for $5 or whether or not the creator gave special permission for someone to sell the product for $5.

      And therein lies the problem with the IMCops site, in my opinion.

      I'd love to hear the legal implications of such a site, too, from someone who knows the law. I'm not sure what they're doing there is entirely within U.S. laws. It seems like it might be bordering on slander or something.

      Denise
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      • Profile picture of the author Win Crow
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        • Profile picture of the author Creditwrench
          Originally Posted by Win Crow View Post

          This is exactly why this thread should stay! I'm glad you can LOL Dylan but let's forget about all of the personal animosity for a minute.

          Doesn't Warrior Forum owe it to the other people who purchased these templates to make sure they don't go down the road 1, 2, 3 months or more with illegal images? Are we to trust that everyone is going to get contacted and offered alternative templates or a refund? Especially since contacting them could potentially expose the contactor to a potential lawsuit? What kind of motivation is there to contact everyone???

          "Dear customer,

          I'm sorry, but your website you invested so much time and money in may no longer be legal due to the fact that I sold you watermarked istock photos..... I'll give you your $17 back so please don't sue me"


          If this thread gets deleted it will only put the countless other people at risk. Istockphoto doesn't take kindly to pirating of images.



          This thread should be made into a sticky if for nothing else, but to serve as a reminder to everyone to double check your work, stand behind your word, and take care of your customers.

          I know there are a lot of people who are loyal to Dylan and Ken, but think about the other people who were intentionally or unintentionally put at legal risk here. What if you were one of the people that Istock Photo caught up with down the road. What is you had to pay a huge fine or were sued because of this?


          Is there someone out there who can weigh in on the legal ramifications of this whole mess?
          Yes, but this horse has long since been beaten to death. About time to let it get stuck or closed or buried or something. I'm starting to get some hate mail over this. Enough is enough.
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  • Profile picture of the author soon
    Here it is:

    Btw I like the IMCops site and I will be watching it to see how it progresses although I know they can't get to far
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    • Profile picture of the author johnedgley
      @soon Thanks for that - now I've reached 15 posts!
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    • Profile picture of the author Creditwrench
      Whoever made that and a few more videos much like it certainly got their point across, whatever that point might have been. That person was unhappy with what he got for his money and he did something about it that was very effective. The target of his wrath actually got some real benefit from it too because he learned that he had a problem that needed his quick attention. Then I ran into a couple of problems and once I got his attention he reacted very positively and is doing a great job of getting my problems resolved.

      Ken Reno is proving that he is a responsible marketer and will give great customer service when a problem arises. That's what counts. Marketers are always going to have some problem or other with their product. How they handle those problems is key to their success.

      As a marketer I love it when somebody gets on my case about some problem or other. If they never complained I would not know that I had a problem and would keep on pushing shoddy merchandise or bad information. I wouldn't know any better. Those who have a complaint against my product or services are my very best customers and their complaints make them my very best friends because they teach me where my problems are and give me the opportunity to get them fixed.

      If you are a marketer you should never bitch and gripe if somebody gets on your case like the person did with his videos. Sure it hurts your ego but all you have to do is make sure it never happens again and people can't possibly complain against you.

      I had a problem with Ken Reno too but he has proven that he is a responsible marketer and a person who can be trusted to do the right thing by his customers to the very best of his ability to do so and nobody can ask more of a marketer than that.
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      • Profile picture of the author Buster Iversen
        Originally Posted by Creditwrench View Post

        Ken Reno is proving that he is a responsible marketer and will give great customer service when a problem arises. That's what counts. Marketers are always going to have some problem or other with their product. How they handle those problems is key to their success.
        Were you not able to read the red text in that video?

        I know it is word against word and the evidence could be faked but I sure as hell don't want do deal with Reno after seeing that video.
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        • Profile picture of the author Creditwrench
          Originally Posted by Buster Iversen View Post

          Were you not able to read the red text in that video?

          I know it is word against word and the evidence could be faked but I sure as hell don't want do deal with Reno after seeing that video.
          We are all human and we are all going to make mistakes. That is the long and the short of it. Whether Ken Reno or anyone else makes mistakes, be they big or little is of no importance.

          Our Lord taught us that we should forgive and he also told us to do unto others as we would have them do unto us. If you made a mistake in judgment and therefore something wrong would you want others to condemn you forever or would you want them to give you the opportunity to correct your mistake(s) and go on to improve? Think about it.

          Ken is a human being and he is going to make mistakes. I am a human being and I am going to make mistakes and so are all of you. None are perfect. We learn by trial and error. It isn't that we make mistakes that counts, it is what we do to correct them to the greatest extent possible.

          Ken is not only correcting mistakes but he was also so gracious as to offer me a $100 "certificate" with which to purchase other products of his to make up for my inconvenience. I deeply appreciated that gesture but I will not be taking advantage of it because I happen to think that would be taking an unfair advantage of him. If he happens to have some other product in the future I'll buy it and I'll gladly pay full price for it.

          Think about it this way.
          I love myself even though I have many faults so why can't I love my fellow man even though he too has faults?
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  • Profile picture of the author FasthostsCom
    Great post! I admire your character.
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    • Profile picture of the author Lance K
      Well, if we're talking about RR, MRR, PLR material here, then it's your own fault if someone else's actions are devaluing your products. Because you haven't done a good enough job of decommoditizing the product.
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  • Profile picture of the author Buster Iversen
    @Creditwrench
    Ok fair enough, you have personal experience with him.

    But if the accusations in the video is true then he had 3 weeks to handle the issue and did nothing.
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  • Profile picture of the author Martha Richardson
    I want to clarify a couple of things. First, Ken Reno is not the person behind the IMCop site. The person who runs it was just agreeing with what Ken had said about product devaluation.

    Secondly, the mistake of selling templates with watermarked images is a mistake that many of us could have made. Dylan Jones sold the templates with resale rights and the watermarks were not easy to locate on the images. It's a "mistake" I would have made myself had I purchased the resale rights, as I would never have seen the watermarks. It shows how careful we have to be in using and selling created graphics, but Ken is not a villain here, he's a great guy who has bent over backwards to help a lot of people. For the record, Ken tried to give the guy a refund, but they guy had canceled his Paypal account and now wants Ken to send the refund by Western Union! Remember, there's two sides to every story, so don't be quick to judge.

    Barry
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    • Profile picture of the author Win Crow
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      • Profile picture of the author Kevin Riley
        Originally Posted by Win Crow View Post


        That's what I heard
        And on unsubstantiated heresay we can now crucify a member of the community. I hope the dunking chairs and witch burnings are not following closely behind.
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        • Profile picture of the author Buster Iversen
          Originally Posted by Kevin Riley View Post

          And on unsubstantiated heresay we can now crucify a member of the community. I hope the dunking chairs and witch burnings are not following closely behind.

          It would be nice to hear the other side of the story but generally it takes a bit extra to aggravate somebody to the point where they spend the time to make a video about it.

          Anyway I think we should just let this go and get this thread back on topic again.
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        • Profile picture of the author zerofill
          Originally Posted by Kevin Riley View Post

          I hope the dunking chairs and witch burnings are not following closely behind.
          Just a big Gerbil Roast!!!!!!
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          • Profile picture of the author Creditwrench
            Well, as you all know by this time, I side with Ken on this one because of the way he handled himself in the end. There is a sort of continuation of the story as well. Ken didn't have the expertise to deal with the problem in the final analysis so he sent me over to the man who wrote the program. Dansonlinecash. Dan actually worked on the program until about 1:00 A.M. a couple of days ago. Said he fixed it and we both went to bed.

            It still wasn't fixed when I woke up next morning and so I emailed him again. He said that the program was fixed and working which in a sense is absolutely true. I've used it to send myself a couple of messages just to test it and it worked every time. The problem lies in the cron job at the server level and may only exist because of some special command needed to run the cron job. If the program is put on some server other than Bluehost.com there might never have been a problem at all.

            I finally got Bluehost on it last night but their top tech guy had gone home for the evening and Bluehost has shut their tech support down until Friday morning. Bluehost is a great hosting service. Their tech support is second to none and they give a great value for the money. I'm confident they will get to the bottom of it once the holiday is over. So the whole problem was probably not the fault of either Ken or Dansonline.com but with Bluehost in the first place. Dan said he had never heard of this kind of problem before so that adds even more strength to the theory that Bluehost was the whole problem in the first place.

            Both Ken and Dan really did a great job and my hand of support goes to both of them.

            But as we all know, things could have turned really nasty and how to react when they do is really much more important. And when I say "really turn nasty" I mean that in spades. Let me explain. My business is teaching people how to deal with debt collectors and lawyers. I teach them how to put a stop to abusive phone calls by debt collectors and how to win in court without lawyers. Needless to say debt collectors and lawyers don't like me in the least. Most think I am only teaching deadbeats how to escape paying their just debts and am a despicable person for doing that.
            The animosity between myself and debt collectors has generated more than one flame war and even though I won every time the results for both sides have proven to be very detrimental to both.

            You want to talk about one person slandering the other, go do a google search for creditwrench and you will see some of the results even a couple of years after both sides realized we were doing more harm than good. As you will see, it got far worse than almost anything ever previously seen on the internet. And no, neither side could sue the other for slander because slander deals with the spoken word, not the written word. If an action can be taken it would have to be for libel, not slander. And the likelihood of success would not have been good because neither side was free of guilt.

            If you have done something wrong and somebody slams you for it don't think you can go to the courts and win a case against them because you can't. That is because of a doctrine known as the doctrine of clean hands.
            In order to win such a case you must have a spotless reputation to defend and you almost have to be a politician or an actor or other famous person with lots of money and a big reputation to defend in order to win and the defendant must also have a a big warchest worth going after.

            And then it comes down to the matter of "stolen" graphics or content. I'm also in an ongoing battle with a Mr. Robert Paisola from Sandy, Utah over his having stolen a very valuable web page from me. Paisola has a very nasty reputation for stealing web pages, graphics and making false identities on the web claiming to be somebody he isn't. He has been sued many times for stealing graphics and web pages and has more judgments against him than he could ever hope to pay off but he keeps on doing it. He also has a criminal record about as long as the average arm. He has also done me quite a bit of harm on the web but people still come to me when they need help. They very quickly learn that I'm not the kind of person my adversaries depict me to be. They learn quickly that I'm always there and ready to help them.

            One thing that those who would defame us have in common is that they always go overboard with their antics. They go so far overboard that they themselves become totally unbelievable. So what I have learned is that when someone wants to start a flamewar against you the best response is no response at all. The problem we have is that when we are attacked we should never allow our anger to get the best of us because the more we complain about them and what they have done to us the more ammunition we give them to use against us.

            I guess our Lord gave us the best advice when he said, "If they smite ye then turn the other cheek that they may smite thee again." Meanwhile, back at your ranch you should be doing all that you can to make sure that those who smite you have nothing to complain about. Fix the problem as quickly as possible and make sure it never happens again.

            That's what Ken Reno and Dansonlinecash have done and nobody can rail against them for that.
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        • Profile picture of the author HeySal
          Originally Posted by Kevin Riley View Post

          And on unsubstantiated heresay we can now crucify a member of the community. I hope the dunking chairs and witch burnings are not following closely behind.
          I see that I am not the only one with a funny feeling that we are soon to see a WSO for marshmallows.
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          Sal
          When the Roads and Paths end, learn to guide yourself through the wilderness
          Beyond the Path

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    • Profile picture of the author Buster Iversen
      Originally Posted by Barry Richardson View Post

      Secondly, the mistake of selling templates with watermarked images is a mistake that many of us could have made.
      Witch is why we are not criticizing him for that but rather how he apparently handled it.
      Win Crow summarized very nicely how it looks.
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  • Profile picture of the author globalpro
    FYI,

    When the site went up, it was done behind a shield of anonymity. A marketer that I know got posted as a 'violator' for 'de-valuing' products. After a bit of sleuthing, the marketer behind the site was exposed and he finally came out in the open.

    The marketer that owns the site has a bit of a past (don't we all), so he is probably not one to point an accusing finger. At the very worst, it would be a case of the pot calling the kettle black.

    Like Barry, I know Ken. He can get his plate a bit full at times, but when push comes to shove, he has always done the right thing.

    My advice it to stay away from any involvement with the site. Nothing good will come from it.

    Thanks,

    John
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  • Profile picture of the author AgencyScripts
    AND AND the issue with the templates are being fixed...
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    • Profile picture of the author Michelle Brouse
      Originally Posted by Dylan Jones View Post

      AND AND the issue with the templates are being fixed...
      Oh man Dylan.

      You should ONLY ever use "comp images" when showing a client a graphic to see if they like the images, before you purchase them. If they are good with the client, and they like the design - then you GO BUY the dang images.

      AND - I might add, that you should stick to Royalty Free Photos, Download Stock Photos and Images stock photo download royalty free NOT Istock - for creating templates you intend to resell. Istockphoto does NOT allow reselling of templates. Bigstock does - so please go back and check each site's TOS to make sure nothing has changed lately. The only time I use istock or dreamstime, is for personal graphics for customers who will not be reselling the images along with a resell rights package for instance.

      I tell you this, because if you are "fixing" this set by going back to purchase each image from istock so you can redo the templates - you are STILL not going to be legal. Your best bet would be to find the same (or close enough) images on bigstock to fix the templates with.

      I know I have this set on my drive, so now I'm going to have to go hunt it down and check the files myself. If they ARE watermarked, they'll be promptly deleted. Thanks for this thread, because I could have very well sent this pack out - only to be in the same boat myself.

      Just goes to show you, even graphic folks can make mistakes, and if every image isn't totally inspected by the seller - it can not only get the seller in trouble - but any ONE of the buyers that use these images on their sites. Thank goodness you didn't use CORBIS! I don't doubt that istock wouldn't mind handing out a few fines, but I wouldn't touch Corbis with a 10 foot pole. Unless of course I can afford to pay their extremely high fees for the option to build templates.

      Here's another tip. Check out Web Templates | Flash Templates | Website Templates for Web Design. Their TOS will allow you to create new works with their templates, which I have done in the past, but you have to REALLY work at it to make them "sufficiently different" that you can't tell they came from a boxed art template. I haven't been over there for some time, but check their rights - because they have some great stuff.

      Lesson well learned Dylan. I've always liked your graphics - you have a LOT of talent, but please remember you can get a LOT of folks in trouble here - not just yourself.

      Thanks!
      Michelle
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    • Profile picture of the author Kim Standerline
      I'm curious as to why you would sell watermarked images anyway, you must have known it would cause problems and you'd be called out for it

      Totally irresponsible of you

      Kim

      Originally Posted by Dylan Jones View Post

      AND AND the issue with the templates are being fixed...
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  • Profile picture of the author David Maschke
    I've dealt with Ken, and he's offered great support. His name is one I would trust.

    Ken, don't try and control the wave, ride it. The viral effect is pretty powerful stuff. Look at what you've made, and how far it's reaching.

    Dave
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    I

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  • Profile picture of the author AgencyScripts
    * Personally, I think the IMCops thing is pretty useless... BigMike said it perfectly.

    Ken Reno is a stand up guy, and trying to do whatever he can to fix the problem. So am I.

    Kevin, when Win Crow says that he "heard" about all this, and acts like he isn't the person who made the videos, and all that jazz... He is lying. He is the person who made the videos, and he is the person who bought off of Ken, and he IS the person who wont accept the refund from Ken. I have the PM's to prove it, but I wont bother because he will just turn it around anyways...

    This thread is going to get deleted very soon I bet, lol.
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  • Profile picture of the author Martha Richardson
    Dylan said he is fixing the templates. Let's assume for now that he WILL give all resellers the updated product and that the resellers WILL provide their customers with the updated versions. To rant about a lot of "what ifs" serves no real purpose.

    Barry
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  • Profile picture of the author Adeel_Chowdhry
    1. I don't think it's right to point out names of who you think are de-valuers. Most of them are obeying the RR/MRR/PLR rules anyway and what I feel is a low price may not be for another.

    2. Ken didn't create those templates. The blame for using stolen iStock photos should be taken up with the creator...who is another Warrior here.

    I think the least authors can try and do (if they are offering some form of resale rights) is to impose stricter licensing terms.

    Now...

    There may be times when the product owner WANTS their product to be passed around at low prices and let them be included in membership sites too.

    I do this with some products...it helps me brand myself quickly & increase the size of my list.

    ...Then I can sell my other products (including higher priced ones) to this list.

    Adeel
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  • Profile picture of the author George Wright
    They now have this at the top of the blog.

    IMCops.com is changing it's Main Focus from Product De-Vaulers to License Violators

    George Wright
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    "The first chapter sells the book; the last chapter sells the next book." Mickey Spillane
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      George,
      IMCops.com is changing it's Main Focus from Product De-Vaulers to License Violators
      Cool.

      Now all they need to do is get a damned good attorney to look at the licenses they're reporting on, to see which ones are enforceable and which are illegal from the start.

      Oh yeah. And to see which have the terms disclosed prior to ordering, and which wait until they have your money before telling you about unusual or undisclosed conditions.

      Good luck with that.


      Paul
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      Stop by Paul's Pub - my little hangout on Facebook.

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  • Profile picture of the author Kim Standerline
    Hi guys

    Hmm seems to me the thread has gone from discussing IMCops.com to Ken's customer service

    It's a lesson in how not to treat your customers though, they have a habit of coming up and biting you in the arse

    Also can I just point out Ken is a member of the Warriors, therefore we shouldn't really be mentioning him by name in relation to this.

    Cheers
    Kim
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  • Profile picture of the author John Collins
    Well I see IMCops switched focus from devaluing to the license issue and probably may want to switch focus again.

    Good thread to see what members defend be it IMCops or problems with mentioned members having issues in the way they conduct business. One member leaving a long trial of problems and one that seems to have just made a bad choice. Apples don't fall far from the tree!

    Some really good suggestions and solutions posted in this thread by members.

    About licensing. When I buy rights I expect the licensing terms to be disclosed on the sales page prior to my purchase. When I buy a product I do a "Save Page As" of the original sales pages. In the folder I download the product into I have another folder with the original sales page(s). If I download the product and find additional or different licensing terms and perhaps a statement saying if you do not agree with these terms ask for a refund. I see this as a type of fraud used to get sales that they wouldn't get if they had full disclosure of the license terms. If this is you - Bite Me!

    There you go you could switch your focus on IMCops to product owners that put one set of licensing terms on the sales page and put different licensing terms in the product download
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  • Profile picture of the author Joel_Holtzman
    I'm actually quitting this industry, entirely, mainly because of how people de-value my work. Some people feel it's not a big deal or that it can be overlooked. Well, that's fine. However, I strongly suggest somebody code their project by hand and then see how it feels.

    I also do not know if it's unfair to request, as a courtesy, to keep it at a minimum price to maintain integrity. The people who lump one's hard work together and sell it for $2 need to be taken out back and shot.
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    • Profile picture of the author Win Crow
      Banned
      [DELETED]
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      • Profile picture of the author John Collins
        Originally Posted by Win Crow View Post

        I saw a post from another member at WF who had a similar concern and I think his resolution was to maintain control by offering his resellers 100% commission so they couldn't take the product and give it away.

        Is there any law that keeps you from putting a minimum price on the resell of your product? If not, wouldn't a simple adjustment to the license agreement solve the problem?
        I researched this heavily the beginning of last year (controlling price) and good luck on attempting that. You can sell the rights but not control the price. Your only control is keeping the rights and using an affiliate system that you control. Many of the online affiliate managers state they buy the product from you and resell it. Even at a loss if they want.

        As far as the license goes they are based on existing law and just because you put something in the license doesn't mean it's enforceable. If there is no law in place or the law is contrary to the license it can't be upheld in court. Of course putting in a suggested price in your license may get some people to honor your pricing because they don't know you can't enforce it. But the people that know will do what they want.

        So if you want to control the price you need to keep the rights to yourself and stop whining about devaluing your product. After all if you offer rights you yourself initiate the process of devaluing your own product.

        I myself try to maintain a price structure recommended by the product owner especially if they are still selling it for the recommended price. When you sell something to cheap you need to sell more. Also a price to low implies the product has no value regardless of what you tell the customer.

        I am not a lawyer or claim to be. Nor do I want to be.
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    • Profile picture of the author Buster Iversen
      Originally Posted by Joel_Holtzman View Post

      I'm actually quitting this industry, entirely, mainly because of how people de-value my work. Some people feel it's not a big deal or that it can be overlooked. Well, that's fine. However, I strongly suggest somebody code their project by hand and then see how it feels.

      I also do not know if it's unfair to request, as a courtesy, to keep it at a minimum price to maintain integrity. The people who lump one's hard work together and sell it for $2 need to be taken out back and shot.

      Not 100% sure but I believe it is illegal in most countries to restrict prices, so yea it is unfair.

      If you sell resale rights you chose to give up control.
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      • Profile picture of the author Tom B
        Banned
        Originally Posted by Buster Iversen View Post

        Not 100% sure but I believe it is illegal in most countries to restrict prices, so yea it is unfair.

        If you sell resale rights you chose to give up control.

        I would love to hear from a lawyer on this. I don't see why you can't restrict pricing on a product if you are the owner. You are not manipulating the marketplace but only restricting the license to one product within the marketplace.
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        • Profile picture of the author GarrieWilson
          Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

          I would love to hear from a lawyer on this. I don't see why you can't restrict pricing on a product if you are the owner. You are not manipulating the marketplace but only restricting the license to one product within the marketplace.
          Price fixing laws keep you from doing it.
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          • Profile picture of the author Tom B
            Banned
            Originally Posted by GarrieWilson View Post

            Price fixing laws keep you from doing it.

            I am not so sure Garrie. If I sell a resell license to a software program, I am not trying to control the marketplace which in effect hurts the public. I am controlling my product.


            I would welcome any evidence you may have to support your view.
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            • Profile picture of the author GarrieWilson
              Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

              I am not so sure Garrie. If I sell a resell license to a software program, I am not trying to control the marketplace which in effect hurts the public. I am controlling my product.
              Just by limiting the price you are trying to control the marketplace.

              I would welcome any evidence you may have to support your view.
              Did you even look up the laws?
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              • Profile picture of the author Tom B
                Banned
                Originally Posted by GarrieWilson View Post

                Just by limiting the price you are trying to control the marketplace.

                Did you even look up the laws?
                It takes more than one company with competing products to control the marketplace. If what Josh states is true than I can see how price fixing could be a factor.

                I decided not to look up the laws and just take my advice from people I don't know on internet forums.

                I figured since you are so sure you would have proof. I guess I was mistaken. Personally I love when people start talking law and then ask them for proof.
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                • Profile picture of the author GarrieWilson
                  Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

                  It takes more than one company with competing products to control the marketplace. If what Josh states is true than I can see how price fixing could be a factor.
                  If you license more than one person to sell it, then more than one comany would be competing but you trie to limit the price which removed the competition part.

                  I decided not to look up the laws and just take my advice from people I don't know on internet forums.
                  Thats very obvious because if you did, you wouldnt need proof.
                  I figured since you are so sure you would have proof. I guess I was mistaken. Personally I love when people start talking law and then ask them for proof.
                  Sorry I dont keep the 100s of threads on this issue with attorneys saying its illegal bookmarked.

                  Do you have any proof if it's not? See how that worked. You said it's not yet provide nothing to backup your statement.
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                  • Profile picture of the author Tom B
                    Banned
                    Originally Posted by GarrieWilson View Post

                    Just by limiting the price you are trying to control the marketplace.

                    Did you even look up the laws?
                    Originally Posted by GarrieWilson View Post

                    If you license more than one person to sell it, then more than one comany would be competing but you trie to limit the price which removed the competition part.

                    Thats very obvious because if you did, you wouldnt need proof.


                    Sorry I dont keep the 100s of threads on this issue with attorneys saying its illegal bookmarked.

                    Do you have any proof if it's not? See how that worked. You said it's not yet provide nothing to backup your statement.

                    I didn't say it was legal or illegal. See how that worked. You are the one that made the comment. So sorry for anyone to doubt you Garrie and ask for proof. :rolleyes:

                    It is obvious you didn't read it otherwise shooting me a link to it wouldn't have been very difficult. If you are going to make a comment about that than maybe you should back it up instead of bitching when someone asks for proof.

                    Competition wouldn't be limited due to my one software program. It would be limited if I colluded with other software manufacturers that were producing the same type of programs.
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                    • Profile picture of the author GarrieWilson
                      Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

                      Competition wouldn't be limited due to my one software program. It would be limited if I colluded with other software manufacturers that were producing the same type of programs.
                      That's just it... If I buy a license to resell your product, I become a software manufacturer. If you try and limit the price w/ me and others, then price fixing comes into play.

                      It is obvious you didn't read it otherwise shooting me a link to it wouldn't have been very difficult.
                      Umm. Shoot you a link to something I read months go? To discussions taken place in the last 5+ years? Yeah, I keep them bookmarked so I can re-read them. :rolleyes:

                      Get real.

                      Garrie
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                • Profile picture of the author Kim Standerline
                  Price fixing and the law | Business Link

                  I'm sure it's similer in the US etc


                  Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

                  It takes more than one company with competing products to control the marketplace. If what Josh states is true than I can see how price fixing could be a factor.

                  I decided not to look up the laws and just take my advice from people I don't know on internet forums.

                  I figured since you are so sure you would have proof. I guess I was mistaken. Personally I love when people start talking law and then ask them for proof.
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  • Profile picture of the author Josh Anderson
    If you sell resale rights or master resale rights or plr rights you are accepting that the product will be devalued.

    If you do not sell rights but just run an affiliate program for your own original products...

    Presto problem resolved.

    For those who sell resale rights and think that they can somehow control the price that other people competing in the market sell for...

    Price fixing?

    Seriously... people who sell rights to their products sell "rights" to their products and have no room to complain. If you want to retain rights and control value and price then don't sell rights or come up with a legally enforceable legitimate licensing model.

    The major problem with the idea is that they intend to make statements against individuals based on third party transactions that they were not part of, which may have had no legally binding licensing agreement (strait sale of distribution rights) and interpret licenses many of which may be unconscionable and unenforceable leaving the reseller well within their right to set their own prices.

    In other words... the bad guys could quickly become the cops because they can quickly find themselves on the wrong side of the law regardless of their unqualified legal opinions on how someone's business should be transacted.

    They could face legal action for libel as well because as illustrated by one of the posts in their forum they intend to make factual statements about these third parties. If they do not have all their facts correct they open themselves up for legal liability.
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    • Profile picture of the author cherylwright
      This is exactly why I decided not to sell my products with RR, MRR, or PLR rights. They devalue soooo quickly, which doesn't help your reputation as they product creator.

      All my products are available via an affiliate program, but no rights are available.

      I agree with what someone else said here, let's be respectful to a fellow Warrior. The shoe could be on the other foot someday.





      Cheryl
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  • Profile picture of the author Josh Anderson
    I am not so sure Garrie. If I sell a resell license to a software program, I am not trying to control the marketplace which in effect hurts the public. I am controlling my product.
    The only way it stays your product and the only way you have a right to control it is if you are the one duplicating and delivering it.

    Once you sell the right to someone else to duplicate and deliver it on their own independent of you it is no longer your product.

    You may own the copyright but the third party is now digitally manufacturing it operating independent of you and all other competing producers of the product.

    The company manufacturing or replicating the product cannot agree with other producers to fix prices.

    For now in the digital world there are not many (if any) precedent setting cases so you have to depend on physical product case precedent for examples of price fixing.

    If you want to retain the legal right to set and enforce minimum pricing you likely need to be the producer and distributor and remain in the chain. So you might license someone to resell your product but you need to deliver it and you also need to have a legally binding license/contract with the reseller.
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    • Profile picture of the author Tom B
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Josh Anderson View Post

      The only way it stays your product and the only way you have a right to control it is if you are the one duplicating and delivering it.

      Once you sell the right to someone else to duplicate and deliver it on their own independent of you it is no longer your product.

      You may own the copyright but the third party is now digitally manufacturing it operating independent of you and all other competing producers of the product.

      The company manufacturing or replicating the product cannot agree with other producers to fix prices.
      Hi Josh,

      I would appreciate seeing proof of your claims.


      Thanks,
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  • Profile picture of the author Buster Iversen
    from wiki:
    "Price fixing is an agreement between business competitors to sell the same product or service at the same price."
    Price fixing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


    From ACCC:
    "it must be demonstrated that
    the businesses in question are
    (or should be) in competition with
    one another. This is known as a
    'horizontal arrangement', where the
    businesses all operate at the same
    functional level, be it manufacturing,
    wholesale or retail."
    http://www.accc.gov.au/content/item....xing_Jan07.pdf


    If you are selling the same product as somebody else you are competing with them for the same customers. When it comes to digital products you are both manufacturing the product, one the designer/writer the other under license but both are manufacturing and both are sellers.
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    • Profile picture of the author Tom B
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Buster Iversen View Post

      from wiki:
      "Price fixing is an agreement between business competitors to sell the same product or service at the same price."
      Price fixing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


      From ACCC:
      "it must be demonstrated that
      the businesses in question are
      (or should be) in competition with
      one another. This is known as a
      'horizontal arrangement', where the
      businesses all operate at the same
      functional level, be it manufacturing,
      wholesale or retail."
      http://www.accc.gov.au/content/item....xing_Jan07.pdf


      If you are selling the same product as somebody else you are competing with them for the same customers. When it comes to digital products you are both manufacturing the product, one the designer/writer the other under license but both are manufacturing and both are sellers.

      Thanks for the link Buster. I haven't been able to find anything that states a person is a manufacture when they deliver a digital download. I am assuming your last paragraph was relating to that.

      I would appreciate any links to help satisfy by curiosity.


      Thanks mate,
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      • Profile picture of the author Buster Iversen
        Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

        Thanks for the link Buster. I haven't been able to find anything that states a person is a manufacture when they deliver a digital download. I am assuming your last paragraph was relating to that.

        I would appreciate any links to help satisfy by curiosity.


        Thanks mate,
        Well I haven't been able to find any information stating that either so it looks like it will have to be a point of argument for now. However if two people are selling the exact same product online all you have to do is make the link that an online store is comparable to a retail store and then the law applies.

        According to this web page USA DIGITAL MILLENIUM COPYRIGHT ACT LAW AND FAIR USE, CARTELS, MONOPOLIES, TRUSTS WHERE TO 2 SING .COM DAVID KENWARD there are some exceptions where price fixing is allowed like international flights or oil. I wouldn't really call that site credible but interesting non the less.
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  • Profile picture of the author Josh Anderson
    Hi Josh,

    I would appreciate seeing proof of your claims.
    This is a major body of law...

    However if you study it to its core the basic concept is that to legally enforce a price:

    1. You must be the manufacturer of the product.
    2. It must be unilateral (they cannot consent).
    3. Your remedy is to stop supplying the retailer.

    Multiple manufacturers cannot agree to fix price legally.

    You are no longer the manufacturer and do not even exist in the supply chain once you sell the right to independent produce the product.

    Now that does not mean that there may not be some precedent setting digital product case appear some day in the future...

    Not long ago the music industry settled when the Feds targeted them for digital product price fixing.

    The courts still approach issues like this on a case by case basis.

    But absent a manufacturer to reseller chain where the reseller is supplied by the manufacturer, unilaterally set prices, and legally enforceable MAP agreements it does not appear that there would be much to stand on for enforcement.

    The references you are seeking are found in US and International law including Supreme Court decisions on the subject. A deeper search for and study of information or publications covering the laws in question will supply you with the answers you seek.

    I would recommend consulting with a lawyer who specializes in Anti Trust Law if you are wanting to come up with legally enforceable strategies.
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    • Profile picture of the author Tom B
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Josh Anderson View Post

      This is a major body of law...

      However if you study it to its core the basic concept is that to legally enforce a price:

      1. You must be the manufacturer of the product.
      2. It must be unilateral (they cannot consent).
      3. Your remedy is to stop supplying the retailer.

      Multiple manufacturers cannot agree to fix price legally.

      You are no longer the manufacturer and do not even exist in the supply chain once you sell the right to independent produce the product.

      Now that does not mean that there may not be some precedent setting digital product case appear some day in the future...

      Not long ago the music industry settled when the Feds targeted them for digital product price fixing.

      The courts still approach issues like this on a case by case basis.

      But absent a manufacturer to reseller chain where the reseller is supplied by the manufacturer, unilaterally set prices, and legally enforceable MAP agreements it does not appear that there would be much to stand on for enforcement.

      The references you are seeking are found in US and International law including Supreme Court decisions on the subject. A deeper search for and study of information or publications covering the laws in question will supply you with the answers you seek.

      I would recommend consulting with a lawyer who specializes in Anti Trust Law if you are wanting to come up with legally enforceable strategies.

      Thanks for the post Josh. This is a interesting area, well at least for me.

      If I am constantly offering the resellers updates and fixes then it would seem I am operating as a supplier (as long as I am not selling the software myself to make sure there is not horizontal descrepencies).

      I definitely plan on researching more and talking with someone who specializes.

      I did read up on the music industry getting nailed.
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  • Profile picture of the author Josh Anderson
    Some interesting quotes from Wikipedia:

    In the United States, price fixing can be prosecuted as a criminal felony offense under section 1 of the Sherman Antitrust Act.[1] In Canada, it is an indictable criminal offence under section 45 of the Competition Act.
    "Section 1 of the Act prohibits "agreements, conspiracies or trusts in restraint of trade," making them a crime. Not every alleged agreement is treated alike. The Court has interpreted this section to prohibit arrangements that unreasonably manipulate trade, differentiating between two kinds of conduct: agreements which are very likely to raise costs to consumers, and those which might, but were not highly likely to be harmful."
    Also there have been cases where distributors have sued manufacturers and won being awarded damages in price fixing cases.
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    • Profile picture of the author Buster Iversen
      Originally Posted by Josh Anderson View Post

      Also there have been cases where distributors have sued manufacturers and won being awarded damages in price fixing cases.

      The really interesting question is if there has been any court cases about digital products.
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  • Profile picture of the author Ken Reno
    hey gang,

    I just want to make sure it's perfectly clear here, that while this thread
    was started with a post referring to me - my blog post was not printed in it's entirety. ( Instant Commissions for Joint Venture And Affiliate Partners Blog Archive My Rant…MUST read )

    I did NOT "name names" at all...

    I did not endorse the IMcops site at all...

    I still don't.

    I even admitted to being a part of the problem MYSELF.

    As I told Scott Drake - the owner of the site -
    it does have merit, but the setup and "reporting"
    system is nothing but a free for all, where anyone
    can 'report' anything...not good at all.

    I'm all for a system where product OWNERS could be
    alerted to someone breaking their license terms, but
    as for the general public - that's not my business, and
    I don't see ANYTHING productive coming from IMcops -
    just back and forths and pissed off people.

    Let's show some respect, and common sense, and we'll
    all do just fine.

    Happy New Year gang!
    Ken
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  • Profile picture of the author Josh Anderson
    I even admitted to being a part of the problem MYSELF.
    I wonder though what is the problem?

    Is it that people offer resale rights and master resale rights and therefore devalue their own products?

    Or is the problem laws that prohibit resellers from colluding to fix prices?

    Or is the real problem common naivety among publishers who do not understand the laws that govern their own operations?

    Where a reseller acts within their legal rights and obeys the law by not colluding with other resellers to fix price there is no problem.

    But when people get together to try and paint such as "the problem" then there is a real problem.

    US, Canada, and UK laws all say price fixing is illegal.

    My own vote is that anyone who sells "resale rights" and then complains about their product being "devalued" should be tarred and feathered :-)
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    • Profile picture of the author Buster Iversen
      @Ken Reno

      I apologize for taking part in the previous crucifixion.
      But as I said in my last post on the subject half the story was missing (and it all seamed like a good idea at the time).

      Anyway lets string up Dylan...
      oh wait, maybe I should just stop posting about the subject before I earn myself a ban for being a retard.


      Originally Posted by Josh Anderson View Post

      My own vote is that anyone who sells "resale rights" and then complains about their product being "devalued" should be tarred and feathered :-)
      Lets chose a random target
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      • Profile picture of the author Ken Reno
        Originally Posted by Buster Iversen View Post

        @Ken Reno

        I apologize for taking part in the previous crucifixion.
        But as I said in my last post on the subject half the story was missing (and it all seamed like a good idea at the time).

        Anyway lets string up Dylan...
        oh wait, maybe I should just stop posting about the subject before I earn myself a ban for being a retard.




        Lets chose a random target

        Hey I hear that man!

        I don't want to string up Dylan, or anyone else...I was rather shocked to discover I had sold 204 copies of the templates...besides the 12 hours of refunds, thousands of dollars gone, countless emails, and now a series of 15 youtube videos - all I wanted from Dylan was an explanation - so hopefully he'll reply here. :-)
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        • Profile picture of the author Alice Seba
          Originally Posted by Ken Reno View Post

          all I wanted from Dylan was an explanation - so hopefully he'll reply here. :-)
          I believe he did reply earlier in this thread. I don't think there was much explanation though.

          But realistically speaking, he sold YOU a bad product. He didn't sell it to your 200+ customers. Who is responsible for that? I'm not trying to pick on you, but I think people who buy resell rights, PLR, etc. or even when they outsource coding/writing/etc...they need to remain responsible for what they sell to their own customers.

          Buying resell rights or paying for exclusive rights doesn't release anyone of their need to know what they're selling.

          Just a thought.

          Alice
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          • Profile picture of the author Ken Reno
            I agree Alice - it was my fault for not stripping the images down to the source and making sure none of them were stolen before I sold them.

            My customers bought from me. I sold them, I issued refunds...still upsetting though since I've bought everything he's ever made.
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            • Profile picture of the author BIG Mike
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              • Profile picture of the author Josh Anderson
                @Everyone - we run a Wholesale Membership, whose members earn a 100% commission on everything they sell. We control the entire process from cradle to grave, to not only prevent the products from being devalued, but to ensure the members can promote them on an equal footing. It works...and it's entirely legal.
                In all the discussions we have had over the years on this subject over and over this kind of solution has always seemed to be the best concept for those that want to retain control.
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  • Profile picture of the author Ken Reno
    hey Josh - I know what you mean exactly...

    I know you create all your own products - some of the best I've ever bought...

    but have you EVER bought a product with resale rights?

    If so, how did you feel the day after you spent $197 on 10 sourcecode products, to see them sold for $1 each to your target market?

    It IS a problem, but I agree - much of the responsibility lies with the creator who released rights....but if NOBODY sold resale rights to anything, how would all the untold thousands of marketers have ever got their start?

    My whole rant that day was just to put it in the air and see how my readers feel about it, and I got the feedback I was looking for - things are tough all over...

    Good hearing from you man - don't be a stranger in 2009!
    Ken
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    • Profile picture of the author Josh Anderson
      but have you EVER bought a product with resale rights?

      If so, how did you feel the day after you spent $197 on 10 sourcecode products, to see them sold for $1 each to your target market?
      How I feel does not matter.

      Your right it happens all the time... and I buy a lot of quality resale offers and that exact scenario has happened to me many times.

      What matters is the legal rights of the person who purchase the "resale rights" to sell those products.

      They paid for that right and the law says that they can charge what they want.

      You know what really sucks?

      When someone sells you something claiming you have "resale rights" and then illegally tries to restrict those rights after the fact?

      One time a product owner contacted me after I ran a sale which included a product he had sold me "exclusive" private label rights for.

      According to him I was one of only 25 with such rights...

      The problem though was that those rights the way he wrote it in his sales letter granted not only myself rights but also the other 24 rights to sell this product with "master resale rights."

      I paid over $1000 for my private label rights from this individual.

      He called me up personally to complain because other resellers had complained about the price I was charging (no it was not a $1 but I would have been within my rights to do so if it was).

      I could not legally agree with him and the other resellers to a minimum price. If I had I would have been committing a felony.

      He has gone on to offer private label and resale rights to the same package over and over at various prices far below the over $1000 I paid.

      But I do not care.

      Why?

      Because I charged what the market would bear. Set my own price within my rights, and made 5 figures in sales from that $1k+ investment.

      If I had agreed to fix the price with him and the other resellers I would have been breaking the law and I would have probably made less sales if any.

      The problem is not the resellers. The problem is people who spend time worrying about how other people run their business legally and while so doing imagine that they have some legal right because of their "feelings."

      While on the phone with the person who sold me the "rights" they acknowledged that I had every right to charge what I wanted. The only reason they called was because other people were sitting on their duffs doing nothing but worrying about how other people conducted their business.

      The biggest problem with resale rights is not competition.. its not pricing strategies...

      It's people who sit around doing nothing, don't know how to craft an offer, and who purchase too many resale rights, sell nothing, or if they do try and sell do not add anything of value to make their offer compelling or unique.

      Then these same people think they have some moral right to complain about someone exercising their legal right to sell the products that they paid money for the right to sell.

      There is nothing worse than someone selling someone a resale rights and then after the fact trying to illegally enforce terms that make it harder for the reseller to make use of their rights.

      Luckily that is illegal too.

      I carefully read people's offers and licenses. I avoid the ones that do not understand the law and try and craft restrictions that make it a burden on the seller.

      I buy a lot of high value resale rights offers and I do it specifically because of their liberal terms. The more people try to restrict their resellers the harder they make it for their resellers to compete against each other.

      And as for those people that sell for a $1

      It never effects me because I craft irresistible offer that they can never compete with and that people are willing to pay more for.

      But the devaluation of a product must be assumed when unlimited numbers of resale rights are sold. When you introduce master resale rights the competition grows exponentially then devaluation is complete and there is not anything any reseller can legally do about it.

      In those cases the best thing to do is to use them as value added bonuses, or craft a new offer where you add your own twist like additional training and strategies to enhance the offering.
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  • Profile picture of the author stanli
    An alternative to PLR is a membership site with levels of participation. Software can then be continuously upgraded and the membership fees mean it's an actual business instead of a one-shot.
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  • Profile picture of the author Buster Iversen
    15 videos! well somebody is dedicated.
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  • Profile picture of the author Ken Reno
    P.S. I'm sorry John Johnson - I did NOT know the templates were made with stolen photos - and when I asked you in forum messages and phone calls to point them out - you refused...I'm sorry, and will issue you a refund as SOON as you are able to accept money in your PayPal.
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    • Profile picture of the author Win Crow
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      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
        "Crow,"
        Defamation?
        You may want to look up the legal definitions and consequences of trade libel and harassment while you're at Nolo.

        Along with that, ask a lawyer if truth is an absolute defense if the judge finds that the statements are made with malice and an intent to cause damage, especially after the target has offered to remedy the problem.


        Paul
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        • Profile picture of the author Win Crow
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          • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
            "Crow,"

            You miss my point. If you go at it the wrong way, it doesn't matter if it's 100% true. I advise you to consult a lawyer over that issue, as I phrased it.
            It could save you a lot of trouble in the future.

            Assuming you know the law because someone told you that truth is an absolute defense is a bad idea. There are circumstances in which that's not entirely accurate.


            Paul
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    • Profile picture of the author Ken Reno
      John,

      You wanted an apology - I've said I'm sorry - and will say it again:

      "I'm sorry!"

      You want a refund, but cant accept PayPal, and don't want a postal refund.

      Would you like me to Western Union you $17 - I will - tell me where and
      you'll have it.

      As for your personal information, I have no obligation to protect what
      is written about you on another site. That is not any information you
      presented to me, I found it in Google, and posted a link to their site.

      About using my name, it doesn't matter what you think in your head,
      my name is Kenneth Reno, and you may not use that name as your
      own - anywhere.

      Why don't you tell me where to send you a Western Union of $17,
      so we can end this nonsense?

      Again - you win - I'm sorry for this mess - what more do you want man?
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  • Profile picture of the author Ken Reno
    I have just personally reported this incident to istockphoto, so I expect to hear from them since it was their material infringed on. I will report thier reply and let you guys know if I'm being sued.

    I've learned 3 lessons:

    1. Always check graphics for hidden watermarks.

    2. Never buy from Dylan Jones again.

    3. Attend to my customers better.

    Don't make the same mistakes I have.

    Take care gang!
    Ken
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    • Profile picture of the author Win Crow
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  • Profile picture of the author GarrieWilson
    Dylan needs to be tarred and feathered.

    I purchased his "Newbie Startup" and the OTO. Guess thats money down the drain because I wont sell his templates now. Especially since he is ignoring my PM.

    Oh well.

    Garrie
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    Screw You, NameCheap!
    $1 Off NameSilo Domain Coupons:

    SAVEABUCKDOMAINS & DOLLARDOMAINSAVINGS
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    • Profile picture of the author Win Crow
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      • Profile picture of the author GarrieWilson
        Originally Posted by Win Crow View Post

        I personally spent way too much of my time with this crap. I hope you guys settle it quickly.
        It's settled as far as I'm concerned. I wont buy from him.



        Garrie
        Signature
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        $1 Off NameSilo Domain Coupons:

        SAVEABUCKDOMAINS & DOLLARDOMAINSAVINGS
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  • Profile picture of the author Ken Reno
    Thank you John, and my apology is sincere as well.

    Please tell me if you want the Western Union refund - I can have it to
    you first thing tomorrow.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mike Hill
    You guys are being too hard on Dylan as far as not wanting to buy from him again... He made a mistake - a big one - but a mistake none the less.

    He did respond earlier in this thread and said he is working to correct the problem. I purchased those templates and I will purchase from Dylan again but I will check the templates next time just to make sure.

    At the end of the day I'm sure there are a few people who learned valuable lessons, including others who never purchased those templates.

    From this thread I learned to check everything I outsource or buy resell rights to and even PLR rights because at the end of the day it's my reputation on the line as far as my customers are concerned.

    Ken did the right thing even though it hurt but he'll bounce back. Ken is a very honest and hard working person...

    Mike Hill

    PS. Win Crow just wants his 15 minutes of fame - what a waste since he didn;t use his real name ..
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    • Profile picture of the author GarrieWilson
      Originally Posted by Mike Hill View Post

      You guys are being too hard on Dylan as far as not wanting to buy from him again... He made a mistake - a big one - but a mistake none the less.
      No because...

      1. He didn't email people about it. Atleast not people who received them via the "Newbie Startup" offer.

      2. He is ignoring PM, atlease mine. He said to PM him if people had issues as he wasn't going to reply in the public. (I only sent one PM as that's enough.)

      3. He KNOWINGLY used images he didn't have the right to. It wasn't an oversite. (To my knowledge, he didn't outsource them. If he did, he would have said so already.)

      -G
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  • Profile picture of the author Ken Reno
    Thanks Mike,

    I know you're one of the good guys out here...

    I am more upset with Dylan than anyone, cuz he made a
    "mistake" as you said, but the bigger mistake is that he
    first denied it, then said he only used one image...then
    when the videos were released showing his several stolen
    graphics, he just ignored me for 9 days till today when he
    replied and told me to stop writing him because he doesn't
    want to answer jerks like me:

    http://www.warriorforum.com/warrior-...-em-now-2.html

    I sold these to over 200 of my best customers - who knows who they sold
    them to...a big mess.

    I personally would be a fool to buy from him again - I've bought from him and
    been ripped off several times now by him, but I STILL want to see the good in people, so I helped him promote his products...now he replied and said I NEED him so I'll have something to sell.

    If you look here at some purchases from Dylan this year - you'll see exactly how many of them he delivered on. Every refund is where he didn't deliver the product or content I paid for:

    Nov. 16, 2008 Subscription Cancellation To Tracy Jones Canceled Details ... ... ...
    Nov. 14, 2008 Payment To Tracy Jones Completed Details -$17.00 USD $0.00 USD -$17.00 USD
    Nov. 2, 2008 Subscription Cancellation To Tracy Jones Canceled Details ... ... ...
    Oct. 29, 2008 Reversal From Tracy Jones Completed Details $47.97 USD $0.00 USD $47.97 USD
    Oct. 21, 2008 Subscription Cancellation To Tracy Jones Canceled Details ... ... ...
    Oct. 21, 2008 Payment To Tracy Jones Completed Details -$97.97 USD $0.00 USD -$97.97 USD
    Oct. 15, 2008 Refund From Tracy Jones Completed Details $97.97 USD $0.00 USD $97.97 USD
    Oct. 15, 2008 Refund From Tracy Jones Completed Details $97.97 USD $0.00 USD $97.97 USD
    Oct. 15, 2008 Refund From Tracy Jones Completed Details $47.97 USD $0.00 USD $47.97 USD
    Oct. 15, 2008 Refund From Tracy Jones Completed Details $97.97 USD $0.00 USD $97.97 USD
    Oct. 8, 2008 Payment To Tracy Jones Reversed Details -$47.97 USD $0.00 USD -$47.97 USD
    Oct. 3, 2008 Payment To Tracy Jones Refunded Details -$97.97 USD $0.00 USD -$97.97 USD
    Sep. 13, 2008 Payment To Tracy Jones Refunded Details -$97.97 USD $0.00 USD -$97.97 USD
    Sep. 8, 2008 Payment To Tracy Jones Refunded Details -$47.97 USD $0.00 USD -$47.97 USD
    Sep. 3, 2008 Payment To Tracy Jones Refunded Details -$97.97 USD $0.00 USD -$97.97 USD
    Aug. 13, 2008 Payment To Tracy Jones Completed Details -$97.97 USD $0.00 USD -$97.97 USD
    Aug. 8, 2008 Payment To Tracy Jones Completed Details -$47.97 USD $0.00 USD -$47.97 USD
    Aug. 3, 2008 Payment To Tracy Jones Completed Details -$97.97 USD $0.00 USD -$97.97 USD
    Jul. 13, 2008 Payment To Tracy Jones Completed Details -$97.97 USD $0.00 USD -$97.97 USD
    Jul. 8, 2008 Payment To Tracy Jones Completed Details -$47.97 USD $0.00 USD -$47.97 USD

    So again - I won't buy from him EVER again - shame on me for trying to help him after he disappeared with hundreds of dollars last time...then showed up - issued refunds, apologized, etc....I just believed him.

    Have a good one man - good seeing you!
    Ken

    P.S. I don't hold anything against Win Crow - I now know exactly how he feels after Dylan told me to go to hell for confronting him about his stolen images - when HE is the one in the wrong....guess that's karma for me eh? :-)
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  • Profile picture of the author John M Kane
    "Badges?...BADGES!... I don't need no STINKING BADGES!!"
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  • Profile picture of the author Mike Hill
    I just got an email this morning from Dylan and he is fixing this issue and will have the templates released shortly. Apparently he is also sending an additional bonus.

    Hello!

    You bought the miniThemesPLR package from me through a WSO for $67 in Nov. (or Dec.)

    Some of the templates used iStockPhotos.com images, and I do not own a extended license
    on any of them used, so I can not sell them to you, and thus you can not sell them yourself.

    So your going to have stop selling these templates, and scrap them.

    Fear not, because I have redone them using privately source stock photos to achieve the same
    effect (closest as possible). These stocks images are sourced by private photographers, and artists
    and copyright free, so you will not have any trouble selling them, or will your customers either.

    I also fixed an issue with the "Slicing" there was an issue with some of the templates not having
    the slices in place, those are fixed too.

    To make up for this, I have created 5+ more templates that fit the same "themed" styles. There will
    probably be more than 5 maybe even 10 but your guaranteed atleast 5 as they are already done.

    Question: When will you get the new updates files plus the additional templates?

    ASAP - probably Jan. 6th - I have the designs done, but I need to code them, and get everything
    ready.

    Your also getting my new template offer which is Resale Rights templates which is launching at $37

    This comes with the 10 new templates, and sales a page (really spiffy one too) and a few bonuses. You
    are sell personal use to these templates only however.

    All this will be explained in more detail shortly. I am hard at work making the designs and sales page right
    now.

    I also want to apologize for putting you at legal risk by selling these templates. It was never my intention
    to do so, and I sincerely hope my efforts with this issue will help you feel better with working with me.

    If not, and you would like to discontinue your support for my work. That is fine, it was a pleasure working
    with you, and I wish you the very best of success in the future! (2009 and beyond).

    If you have any questions, just hit reply. I will get back to you as soon as I can.

    Thank you.

    Ps. if you bought any of my other template packages like the NewbieStartup, PLRWordpressThemes,
    or The WSO Secret weapon or anything like that, you are fine, and you can sell those they do not use
    any istock photos as they are purely design (colors and shapes).

    The reason these templates are effected is because of the "photo-realism" I was trying to use, so I had to
    source many photos to gain the effect I was looking for.

    --
    Dylan Jones
    MonetizeDesign.com

    Mike Hill

    PS. Yeah, I can certainly understand your position Ken and if that happened to me I'd probably not buy from him either...
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  • Profile picture of the author Kim Standerline
    So did Win (or whatever his name is) accept the refund!

    Why would anyone relentlessly demand a refund yet make it so difficult for it to be paid! I can't help but think he went to an awful lot of trouble for a paltry $17. Spending time on making useless videos, time which he could have spent building his business.

    I notice Dylan has never replied back @ Mike Hill, how can he have made a mistake when he downloaded watermarked images. He must have known that what he was doing was wrong.

    Kim
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  • Profile picture of the author hoolahhoo
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      My advice is to mind your own business Ken and concentrate on supporting your customers before they run you out of this arena!
      I wonder whose sock puppet this is.

      My advice to you is to be more original than to create a new user account to come in "anonymously" and tell people what to do.

      Fake names, no-names. You're all a bunch of chickenshits.


      Paul
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      • Profile picture of the author Mike McBride
        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post


        Fake names, no-names. You're all a bunch of chickenshits.


        Paul
        Careful, Paul - the armchair forum lawyers will be clamoring to sue you for definition of (no) character. :p
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        • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
          Mike,
          definition of (no) character.
          Okay. THAT was clever.

          Suh-WIPE!

          Anyway, I should have qualified that comment. It is really only intended to apply to people who come in here bashing people, products or techniques anonymously. Folks who just hang out and bahve like civilized adults shouldn't take that comment as being directed at them.

          I personally believe that, as soon as Win Crow admitted to using Ken's name on an account meant to bash him, he should have been banned for life. A person who will engage in that sort of behavior has no place among honest folk.

          I also think we need to get a Very Big Broom and clean out these generic, no-name sock puppets.


          Paul
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          • Profile picture of the author Win Crow
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            • Profile picture of the author Tom B
              Banned
              Originally Posted by Win Crow View Post

              Never mind the person who engages in selling stolen pictures.

              I came to this forum to find one of your members so I could get what I paid for and in the process I find a picture pirate. I guess everything was rosy until I screwed it all up.

              I guess I made an enemy for life when I declined your legal advice. Again, Ken and I don't have a problem anymore and we certainly don't need you to stir it all up again.

              Someone with you large number of posts should be able to get this thread deleted. Then everything would be rosy again. It would be like it never happened. :rolleyes:

              Thank you again for your keen insight Paul Almighty.

              If that is all you came for, then why not use your real name. Why pretend you were someone different? I think we all know the answers.
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            • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
              WinJohn,

              A: This is not a customer support forum for other people's products. That's one of the main reasons for Rule #1.

              B: You didn't come here to get anything but the pleasure of pseudonymously abusing someone, else you'd have used your real name from the start.

              C: I didn't give you legal advice. I suggested you get some, in order to save you from problems down the road. If you want the problems, that's not my headache.

              D: Yes, I probably could have nuked the thread, or just your posts. I am very careful about such things, and don't do them often at all. I think some lessons are better learned with the hard corners intact.

              That said, once the lesson was learned, you should have been banned. Permanently. People who engage in this sort of behavior rarely (never, in my experience) learn to act like responsible adults.


              Paul
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  • Profile picture of the author Ken Reno
    Dylan just released new templates today.....with Private Label Rights:
    AmazingMiniSites - Resale Rights!

    Scroll to very bottom of salespage, for the light gray fine print:

    "* Photos In "CoolRunnings", "EasyBlue", "BlueprintStyle" are BigStockPhotos are only PLACE holders, so please remove them in your final product, or go buy your own license to use them. You are not allowed to use them unless you have your own license. *"

    I hope everyone sees that fine print....then I guess you are supposed to go to the photo site, then somehow search and find all the images...then must buy a license for each one so that they can actually use them.
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  • Profile picture of the author Kristi Lane
    Thanks for the heads up, Ken. I doubt that disclaimer will protect him or the resellers from liability for copyright infringement.

    Kristi
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    • Profile picture of the author Eric Lorence
      How can they do that?

      Disclaimer or not...

      Isn't that the equivalent of using other authors articles as "filler" for an ebook?
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      • Profile picture of the author BIG Mike
        Banned
        [DELETED]
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        • Profile picture of the author Kim Standerline
          I hope they hit him with everything they have

          I hope your reading this Dylan even if you haven't had the guts to come out and respond recently. I really hope Istock go after you with a huge hammer.

          What a sleezeball

          Kim

          Originally Posted by BIG Mike View Post

          He's not allowed too - it's a violation of the iStockPhoto TOS. You're not allowed to distribute them period, without the appropriate license and not allowed to use them for "Filler" material in a personal or commercial product.

          If that is what is being done, he's probably facing costly legal action, if anyone takes that to iStockPhoto and complains.
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    • Profile picture of the author Ken Reno
      yea you would think that he would not distribute them at all since he doesn't have the license to - yet he does anyway...
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  • Profile picture of the author Ken Reno
    this is from his site...looks like BigStockPhotos...maybe thier terms are different, I don't know - but putting it in fine gray print at the bottom of the site almost guarantees that nobody will see it...and will unknowingly use or sell them to others...

    "* Photos In "CoolRunnings", "EasyBlue", "BlueprintStyle" are BigStockPhotos are only PLACE holders, so please remove them in your final product, or go buy your own license to use them. You are not allowed to use them unless you have your own license. *"
    Either way - he doesn't care about any legal matters, or people finding out... - he wrote me this when I told him I would be telling my readers about his istock stolen images he sold me in WSO:

    Maybe your email about me will reach 1,000 potential buyers of mine, and they will hate me, and
    look to you as the hero! Well, even if thats the case, there is a 10,000 more who will be happy to
    do business with me.
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  • Profile picture of the author Ken Reno
    Just got reply from Dylan regarding latest templates - I asked him to reply here so maybe he will?

    The placeholders are the PHOTOS used in the templates that are mentioned
    in the disclaimer. It is not my fault you didn't read it first. The templates and
    designs are perfectly okay, and anyone would seriously use these templates
    would want to replace the place holder photos with something more fitting
    anyways...
    So...again - it's the customers fault for not seeing the light gray "disclaimer" at the very bottom of salespage...what a joke Dylan.

    I sincerely hope other Warriors don't miss the fine print and illegally distribute these images...
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