PayPal Making Moves - Pay Attention

77 replies
With all the hooplah that we're confronted with on a daily basis; sometimes its hard to filter out the crap and the stuff we should actually pay attention to. Well, one of those things that should definitely be paid attention to happened, today.

Today I received this eMail from PayPal...

Originally Posted by PayPal


Hello William XXXXXXXX,

Thanks for using PayPal and the PayPal Money Market Fund. Unfortunately, we've decided to close the Money Market Fund, effective 7/29/11.

What does this mean for you? PayPal will transfer any undisbursed dividends you've earned into your PayPal account within 7 business days after we close the fund. Don't worry; you don't have to do a thing.

Your 2011 tax documents will continue to be available on the Fund Summary page in your PayPal account throughout 2012. You'll receive a tax statement from PayPal only if you've earned $10 or more in dividends in 2011.

Thanks for your understanding,
PayPal
This can only mean that PayPal is making changes that have been mandated by their backing bank; JP Morgan Chase. Without getting too much into detail; (you can easily look this stuff up any time you choose); I think this move has something to do with the FTC coming down on Visa/MasterCard International regarding the rise in identity theft and the lack of responsibility (on their parts) regarding the implementation of PCI compliance guidelines. They've been shifting the cost off down the funnel and the FTC told them to get their act together.

Thus.. here we go with the manipulations...

Anyway, I've never been an advocate of constantly moving money out of your PayPal balance; (one of the reasons I've been involved in their Money Market Fund); as there's always been a way to make money with it. Yet, with this move that hidden gem is no longer available. eBay/PayPal is well aware of the implications this move will have; therefore, I'm more than sure this is just a phase I to a much larger internal shift.

Yet, for those that do business according to Business 101/102... you know that draining your PayPal balance is neither prudent nor Business savvy. You should maintain that there should always be a good 5~10% reserve left in your balance to cover emergency instances quickly and efficiently; (also another way to prove to PayPal that you're not just some hobby seeker making a few bucks and got lucky making a lot more but don't have a clue as to what consequences -- yours OR theirs -- such volume shifts would have).

Just a heads up...
PLP,
tecHead
#attention #making #movespay #paypal
  • Profile picture of the author RussRuffino
    Just got off the phone with Andy in the Risk Management Office at PayPal. The reason so many people are having trouble with PP is that PP is anticipating that the Feds will be forcing them to be regulated as a bank sometime this year. So they've instituted all these new guidelines about the KINDS of businesses they're allowed to partner with, and IM ain't one of them.

    That is STRAIGHT from the horse's mouth, just 5 minutes ago.

    Russ
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    • Profile picture of the author tecHead
      Originally Posted by RussRuffino View Post

      Just got off the phone with Andy in the Risk Management Office at PayPal. The reason so many people are having trouble with PP is that PP is anticipating that the Feds will be forcing them to be regulated as a bank sometime this year. So they've instituted all these new guidelines about the KINDS of businesses they're allowed to partner with, and IM ain't one of them.

      That is STRAIGHT from the horse's mouth, just 5 minutes ago.

      Russ
      The thing about publicly released information is that a lot is left open to interpretation. Plain and simple; (and I've been bashed on this forum about saying this before); those that don't have enough guts to challenge the status quo are just being lead.

      My point is; its not so much that "IM" isn't one of the businesses they're not aligning themselves with; its certain tactics that certain IMers choose to (lazily) employ.

      Like the, "I know I just got your money but before you can have what you just paid for, you're gonna need to give me your name and email address... once you jump through that hoop.. THEN I'll give you access to what you just purchased, (even though I already have your money)."

      To PayPal, (and the rest of the legitimate business world), that just makes NO SENSE. They've made it clear that its a practice they frown upon. Yet, there are certain IMers that still employ this tactic.

      While MicroSoft, on the other hand. Says, "OK, here's the product but you'll need to unlock it by registering the product in order to get all of these extra features. Of course this is optional; you just won't get all the special features AND we reserve the right to bug you about registering for as long as you choose to use our product."

      Basically the same thing; just a different way of doing it, (that just so happens to be ACCEPTED by the general public and businessworld, at large).

      Trick is to differentiate one self from the ignorant.

      PLP,
      tecHead
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      • Profile picture of the author Audrey Harvey
        Originally Posted by tecHead View Post

        Like the, "I know I just got your money but before you can have what you just paid for, you're gonna need to give me your name and email address... once you jump through that hoop.. THEN I'll give you access to what you just purchased, (even though I already have your money)."

        To PayPal, (and the rest of the legitimate business world), that just makes NO SENSE. They've made it clear that its a practice they frown upon. Yet, there are certain IMers that still employ this tactic.
        Would love to see this pointed out clearly to WSO sellers, it's a pet peeve of mine.
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        • Profile picture of the author tecHead
          Originally Posted by Audrey Harvey View Post

          Would love to see this pointed out clearly to WSO sellers, it's a pet peeve of mine.
          Its just pure laziness, because PayPal clearly shows the non-tech how to implement their IPN script to accomplish the exact same goal these IMers are attempting t achieve.

          Yet, WarriorPlus has taken the control of the IPN away from the merchant; (one of the reasons I refuse to use the service).

          So, in a very round about, (and most definitely UNintentional), way.. the WF is setting Warriors up to lose to PayPal via the WSO/WarriorPlus service.

          OOPS!

          I should be quiet, now LOL
          ...
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        • Profile picture of the author Black Hat Cat
          Banned
          Originally Posted by Audrey Harvey View Post

          Would love to see this pointed out clearly to WSO sellers, it's a pet peeve of mine.
          It takes 10 seconds to give your name and email address to a seller...the sameseller you already gave it to when you purchased. Basically, it's nothing more than an issue for people desperate for something to whine about.
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          • Profile picture of the author gefflong
            Originally Posted by Black Hat Cat View Post

            It takes 10 seconds to give your name and email address to a seller...the sameseller you already gave it to when you purchased. Basically, it's nothing more than an issue for people desperate for something to whine about.
            Doesn't make it any less annoying to have to type that stuff in AGAIN after I just did it. Suck it up and get my info from the transaction details.
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            • Profile picture of the author Scott Casey
              Thank God I still maintain an Authorize.net account although I never use it and pay the $5 / month plus bank card fee's. I much rather use PayPal, but Im thinking I should start incorporating it on some of my sites. Thanks everyone for the good info here!!!
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          • Profile picture of the author Audrey Harvey
            Originally Posted by Black Hat Cat View Post

            It takes 10 seconds to give your name and email address to a seller...the sameseller you already gave it to when you purchased. Basically, it's nothing more than an issue for people desperate for something to whine about.
            Nope. It's got nothing to do with providing a name and email address. If I buy something, there shouldn't be any conditions (such as subscribing to a mailing list) placed on my being able to obtain my purchase. It would be like going into Borders, buying a book and not being allowed to have it until I was added to their mailing list. Just because it's a digital product, it's no different.

            But, this is getting off topic, so will leave it at that.
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      • Profile picture of the author webmarke
        Originally Posted by tecHead View Post

        The thing about publicly released information is that a lot is left open to interpretation. Plain and simple; (and I've been bashed on this forum about saying this before); those that don't have enough guts to challenge the status quo are just being lead.

        My point is; its not so much that "IM" isn't one of the businesses they're not aligning themselves with; its certain tactics that certain IMers choose to (lazily) employ.

        Like the, "I know I just got your money but before you can have what you just paid for, you're gonna need to give me your name and email address... once you jump through that hoop.. THEN I'll give you access to what you just purchased, (even though I already have your money)."

        To PayPal, (and the rest of the legitimate business world), that just makes NO SENSE. They've made it clear that its a practice they frown upon. Yet, there are certain IMers that still employ this tactic.

        While MicroSoft, on the other hand. Says, "OK, here's the product but you'll need to unlock it by registering the product in order to get all of these extra features. Of course this is optional; you just won't get all the special features AND we reserve the right to bug you about registering for as long as you choose to use our product."

        Basically the same thing; just a different way of doing it, (that just so happens to be ACCEPTED by the general public and businessworld, at large).

        Trick is to differentiate one self from the ignorant.

        PLP,
        tecHead
        Great post sir.

        Most people just go along for the ride and never question why it's okay for some people, companies, and industries to engage in a practice but it is not okay for everyone else to.

        Pick a side guys you need to be allin or all out.

        Don't tell me it's ok for some people do do certain things but when the big boys say you can't do the same thing..you just smile and agree.
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  • Profile picture of the author gorufus
    So, would now be a good time to move to alertpay?
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  • Profile picture of the author Christian Little
    It was a mutual fund run by Paypal. Since they've taken the page down, here's a site that posted some information on it: PayPal's Money Market Fund

    Basically you could give them money and they would invest it for you and you'd see about a 4-5% ROI. Not great, but it gave you something to do when having money just sitting in your paypal account.
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    • Originally Posted by Christian Little View Post

      It was a mutual fund run by Paypal. Since they've taken the page down, here's a site that posted some information on it: PayPal's Money Market Fund

      Basically you could give them money and they would invest it for you and you'd see about a 4-5% ROI. Not great, but it gave you something to do when having money just sitting in your paypal account.
      Why would someone give their money for 4 to 5% that is basically loosing money, I don't get it? You need like 15% to be on 0 with the amount of real life inflation.
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      • Profile picture of the author tpw
        Originally Posted by HelpingYouBeAnExpert View Post

        Why would someone give their money for 4 to 5% that is basically loosing money, I don't get it? You need like 15% to be on 0 with the amount of real life inflation.

        While true, there are not many passive opportunities in today's marketplace that can ensure a 15% return on your investment.
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    • Profile picture of the author Frank Murphy
      I will definitely be switching to Alertpay in the near future. I heard Liberty Reserve is a good alternative as well?
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  • Profile picture of the author kindsvater
    I saw the notice and assumed PayPal was just deciding to keep all the interest on my money.

    .
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  • Profile picture of the author Steven Miranda
    If Paypal decides to remove IM from their network that would change things drastically.
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    • Originally Posted by Steven Miranda View Post

      If Paypal decides to remove IM from their network that would change things drastically.
      Steven, I totally agree.

      But I believe it would hurt PayPal the most.

      When I mention PayPal to my non-IMing friends and family, they either have no idea what I am talking about, or vaguely remember hearing about it.

      If droves of IMers were removed "overnight", the effect would probably be seen in raised EBAY fees to cover the multi-million dollar PayPal loss.

      And IMers are very good at keeping that money flowing to PayPal on a regular basis.

      Who really knows at this point what will happen, but one crystal clear point is driven home for the millionth time ... the government is screwing the small business owner, again.

      Patrick
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  • Profile picture of the author CoverGraphix
    Well, the p*rn industry does not use paypal, and yet they seem to be doing just fine.

    YES, if paypal were to drop IM it would be HUGE. I doubt that is the case. But if you have a high refund rate or any chargebacks, I would be very nervous right now and would line up a second billing method.

    It is in their best interest to close accounts with high refunds and chargebacks, and some IM sites fall into this category because of the outrageous claims they make. Most IM sites do not have this problem though.

    Thanks for the info Techhead
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  • Profile picture of the author NerdGary
    That is real interesting.. Paypal is a "bank" just a virtual one.. Im sure the feds are salivating at turning them into a super regulated zombie. If/when this happens, we will all suffer... i dread that day since alot of my business is on paypal.

    About the money market.. it could also be that their MM business is not profitable. Rates are so low, I can't see how they can make money from it. The administrative costs would eat up all the profits.. What is the MM yielding?
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  • Profile picture of the author LB
    I figured it was just because the money market rates were so absurdly low. The cost of maintaining it was probably not being offset by the benefits.
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    • Profile picture of the author tecHead
      Originally Posted by LB View Post

      I figured it was just because the money market rates were so absurdly low. The cost of maintaining it was probably not being offset by the benefits.
      I'm sure low yields were part of the decision; just don't see it as the only deciding factor in the equation.
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      • Profile picture of the author Frank Donovan
        Hi tecHead,

        Originally Posted by tecHead View Post

        So, in a very round about, (and most definitely UNintentional), way.. the WF is setting Warriors up to lose to PayPal via the WSO/WarriorPlus service.
        OOPS!
        I should be quiet, now LOL
        ...
        I don't see any reason to be quiet. WarriorPlus is an independently run service and isn't actually part of the Warrior Forum.

        Regarding the main issue, I think what's confusing is when the term "IM" is used without further qualification. Thus, when we hear rumours or read reports by representatives in Risk Management from the various payment processing services where they employ this blanket "IM" term when discussing penalties, we're left wondering whether they mean all digital products; or just digital products in the MMO niche; or just products in the MMO niche with an unacceptable level of returns/chargebacks; or any products using deceptive sales tactics.

        Or all of the above.

        Yet, virtually all the major eCommerce sites use internet marketing as part of their sales process; so there's clearly a distinction being applied by the processing companies in these crackdowns we're now starting to witness.

        It would be good to have some definitive clarification.


        Frank
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        • Profile picture of the author BIG Mike
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          • Profile picture of the author Frank Donovan
            Hi BIG Mike,

            Originally Posted by BIG Mike View Post

            The distinction is fairly obvious - the methodologies of IM'ers are significantly different than those of mainstream eCommerce.
            Yeah, I understand that. What I was looking for was some clarification from the Payment Processors' POV. All we've had from companies such as PayPal and Plimus is a blanket "cracking down on IMers" vibe. I'd like them to spell out what they mean in the way that you've done. After all, Amazon is an IM company.

            Like you, I think I know who they're targeting; and if we're right, I applaud it. But we also use the term IM to describe businesses selling online courses, DVDs, software and other digital products in almost any niche you can mention. It would put the minds of those operating in these areas to rest if the payment processors were clear that only those who...

            They sell dreams, not reality - and let's face it, what they tend to sell does not clearly work for every single customer.
            ...were being singled out for special attention. If they mean MMO, let them say so. If they mean products using misleading sales tactics, again, let them be specific, just as you've been here:

            ...emphasis on testimonials, hyped up, vague benefits, hidden optins or forced continuity, etc. You won't find them emailing their lists offering 3rd party products or selling anything they can get their hands on.
            Until then, we're just likely to see more and more scare-mongering threads filled with rumours, conjecture and conspiracy theories.


            Frank
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        • Profile picture of the author RussRuffino
          Originally Posted by Frank Donovan View Post

          Regarding the main issue, I think what's confusing is when the term "IM" is used without further qualification. Thus, when we hear rumours or read reports by representatives in Risk Management from the various payment processing services where they employ this blanket "IM" term when discussing penalties, we're left wondering whether they mean all digital products; or just digital products in the MMO niche; or just products in the MMO niche with an unacceptable level of returns/chargebacks; or any products using deceptive sales tactics.

          Or all of the above.

          It would be good to have some definitive clarification.
          PayPal ITSELF doesn't have clarification. That's the problem. The Risk Management guys get directives from their superiors (which are vague) which are themselves based on what they think the FTC and banking industry want to see.

          They're interpreting their executive's guidelines as best they can.

          Right now, those guidelines state that anything pertaining to make money online, loan modification, and several other business models are now persona non grata at PayPal.

          PP is facing HIGHLY increased regulation from the feds (for example, this is the first year that they have to issue 1099's to the IRS documenting how money is changing hands through their system, and tax liability). So they're making the decision to simply AVOID business models that could give them a problem.

          This is NOT speculation - this is what their top Risk Management guy told me YESTERDAY.

          Russ
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          • Profile picture of the author Frank Donovan
            Hi Russ, thanks for your response.

            Originally Posted by RussRuffino View Post

            PayPal ITSELF doesn't have clarification. That's the problem. The Risk Management guys get directives from their superiors (which are vague) which are themselves based on what they think the FTC and banking industry want to see.
            So, that's (at least) two levels of interpretation, based on someone's opinion of what the FTC and banking industry want to see. Yep, I can see how that might hinder clarity.

            And to be fair to PayPal, its "Acceptable Use Policy" has always included the clause: "involve the sales of products or services identified by government agencies to have a high likelihood of being fraudulent" under the heading: "Prohibited Activities"

            So as soon as it became clear that authorities such as the FTC were starting to pay special attention to certain online activities, the kind of responses we're now seeing from payment processors should have been expected.

            The problem lies in the interpretation.

            They're interpreting their executive's guidelines as best they can.

            Right now, those guidelines state that anything pertaining to make money online, loan modification, and several other business models are now persona non grata at PayPal.
            The business models in those guidelines are not each synonymous with the term "internet marketing". So when we hear reports saying there's a crackdown on IMers, the concern is that a lot of bona fide businesses are going to get caught in the crossfire.

            Or they may just be confused and worrying unduly.


            Frank
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            • Profile picture of the author genietoast
              The Feds have been active. It wouldn't surprise me if the Feds decided to regulate PayPal. They just told California to lift the ban on selling violent video games to minors so the industry can "express themselves". They also did a sting operation on an Amish farmer for selling raw milk. We'll see what happens. Alerty pay is out of Canada, right?
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              • Profile picture of the author Ralf Skirr
                The warrior forum is a great community and we have many great people here. But we should also admit that what most of us here do is very different from building a real business.

                Many so called IM / MMO businesses...
                • use marketing tactics that 'normal people' consider sleazy.
                • don't have the required legal information on their site, or the info is stolen from other sites, or legally wrong.
                • don't even have a contact address or business address or name on their site.
                • don't offer reliable support.
                • offer crappy products, often not even products they created themselves.
                • violate international tax laws, especially regarding VAT, and don't care about it a bit.
                • are hobby businesses that will be off the market within a few months.
                PLUS there's a lot of people outright cheating and not delivering what the customer paid for. I can't begin to list all the purchases I made in the MMO niche where the seller did not deliver.
                • Memberships where the monthly content wasn't delivered but still the payments were deducted.
                • Scripts that didn't work at all.
                • Parts of the product that were unfinished and promised to be delivered a few days later. Never happened.
                Like it or not, this is the 'neighborhood' we're working in.

                Please note that I'm not talking about a few hundred, well known people who have built a real business, but about tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, who are in this market too.

                If I were a payment processor I would probably make the same choices Paypal is making.

                Ralf
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  • Profile picture of the author Steven Miranda
    I am tired of hearing about all the negative issues surrounding Paypal so I'm going to due diligence and setup a backup payment gateway for my business.
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  • Profile picture of the author Owen Smith
    I think they are already regulated and a bank in the UK.
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  • Profile picture of the author SocialMediaOwls
    Maybe it's just not worth keeping up the operation when you pay $.0000002 APR
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  • Profile picture of the author Troy_Phillips
    Seems if marketers give a refund as soon as ask .. PP has no problem with them. But this is coming from someone who hasn't had 10 refund request in 12 years lol(for my personal stuff)

    It also comes from someone who doesn't do WSO's but rather screens their traffic pretty well before it ever gets to a sales page.

    Trying a few new approaches now that may bite me in the butt for not being selective enough with my traffic .. but so far so good.

    I really am not inclined to sell a entry level product without collecting the information. I just have the script set up to do it before you go to pay pal. That way the customer can decide if they want to be my customer, who's info I collect, before I have them in the situation of feeling like they are being held for ransom.
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  • Profile picture of the author Brad Gosse
    Get clickbank and get your own merchant account No brainer.
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  • Profile picture of the author jasonthewebmaster
    Banned
    all the more reason to just suck it up and get a merchant account.
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  • Profile picture of the author HigherPrThanGod
    Some of you need to read Atlas Shrugged.

    Once the idiots wall everything off, pretty soon people just give up.

    The idiots will make it impossible (at some point) to succeed financially.

    I think we're gonna see a dollar crisis soon, along with a banking collapse worldwide.

    (And this is not political because I mentioned no political party)
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Originally Posted by HigherPrThanGod View Post

      (And this is not political because I mentioned no political party)
      Incorrect interpretation of our usage of the word 'politics.' Or that of Merriam-Webster, for that matter.


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      • Profile picture of the author HigherPrThanGod
        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

        Incorrect interpretation of our usage of the word 'politics.' Or that of Merriam-Webster, for that matter.


        Paul
        What did I write that was political? If anything it was financial and philosophical. People are too quick to label things political, almost similar to how everything's spam.
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        • Profile picture of the author webmustang
          As some might know, I got my account "frozen" about a month ago.

          I still wanted to see if I could try to speak with someone to reconsider my "ban"

          So here it is... i just got off the phone with Paypal and the Lady, Heather, was super nice, cute, bubbly.

          When I mentioned my "limitation" she was still cute and bubbly;
          • "let me see how we can help you"
          • "its been a month since your limitation was applied, lets see how we can lift this so y
          ou ca do business as usual"

          As soon as she read notes, she became cold, short and really unpleasant.
          • "We do not want to be associated with the type of business you conduct"
          • "You provided all information we requested and we appreciate your compliance,but as a business decision we are choosing to part ways with your company"
          • "6
          months from now you'll be able to withdraw funds" yadi yada

          When i tried to get more out of her... it got interesting....

          She basically said that PP is tired of internet marketing being a jungle, where offers are made, affiliates promote but there is no affiliate agreements or legal disclaimers... etc she went OFF on me...

          so, i said thank you, and goodbye...

          let the hearer hear

          regards
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          • Profile picture of the author ExRat
            Hi,

            This is a useful, insightful and interesting thread - not just the OP, but the contributions as well. Thanks to all.

            Hi HigherPRThanGod,

            Some of you need to read Atlas Shrugged.

            Once the idiots wall everything off, pretty soon people just give up.

            The idiots will make it impossible (at some point) to succeed financially.
            I follow the videos from a philosopher on youtube (username - stefbot). I won't embed videos like this here because of the risk of 'going political'. He produced an interesting video recently regarding the cost of regulation in the USA. You will find it on youtube with the title 'True News: Borrow More, or Cut Spending? False Dichotomy Planet!'

            It has some quite shocking statistics and I was particularly interested in seeing a comparison of the cost of regulation per employee for businesses with <500 employess vs businesses with >500 employees.

            I hope this doesn't cross the line, Paul. I don't see it as something that would derail a thread or that it's one-sided and inflammatory - in my opinion, it's more educational in terms of informing business people and consumers of what is not talked about and how it could solve many problems for the majority of us.
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          • Profile picture of the author Wayne-JJ
            Originally Posted by webmustang View Post


            She basically said that PP is tired of internet marketing being a jungle, where offers are made, affiliates promote but there is no affiliate agreements or legal disclaimers... etc she went OFF on me...
            So what this means is that no matter how ethical we are in conducting our business, PP just doesn't want to have any association with IM-ers?

            Just curious, where have you moved your business to since PP is no longer an option now?
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    • Profile picture of the author Michael Daniels
      Originally Posted by HigherPrThanGod View Post

      Some of you need to read Atlas Shrugged.

      Once the idiots wall everything off, pretty soon people just give up.

      The idiots will make it impossible (at some point) to succeed financially.

      I think we're gonna see a dollar crisis soon, along with a banking collapse worldwide.

      (And this is not political because I mentioned no political party)
      I would have to agree fully, and after this crash the digital dollar (digital credit) will emerge, and selling anything online will be the best place to be, as the world will go crazy.. if your positioned on the web, paypal or no paypal, there are/and will be work arounds. To many merchants and processors to worry about it. Word for today: Diversify
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  • Profile picture of the author dvduval
    Non event. The interest was like 0.05%. I always move my money out to a higher interest account (every couple of days). And when I pay ANYTHING with paypal I clear out the balance and pay with a cash back credit card.

    Paypal doesn't care how much you keep in. They care about how much you push through, as that is how they make their money.
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  • Profile picture of the author rschuchy
    As someone who does not have a product out there I am curious as to what options other than Paypal are used. I noted merchant accounts mentioned, anything specific? Thanks in advance.
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  • Profile picture of the author sbglobal79
    Is there any alternate option for money .
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  • Profile picture of the author harrymcclaire
    oh

    i didnt know anything to do with this.

    i just use pp for receiving payments.

    haha simple.

    investing i do it with local banks and forex.
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  • Profile picture of the author LB
    There are still some pretty huge "internet marketers" that use Paypal and have for years. Let's also not forget that the "WSO of the day" brings in tons of Paypal payments every day for Mike.

    The fact is that there are plenty of people selling "internet marketing" stuff with Paypal.

    Paypal's regulations simply say "get rich quick"...and that is going to be at the interpretation of whoever happens to be in charge of looking at your account.
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  • Profile picture of the author pmbrent
    This is just one more problem we have to worry about with Paypal as if we didn't have enough already...
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    • Profile picture of the author BIG Mike
      Banned
      [DELETED]
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      • Profile picture of the author Steven Miranda
        Originally Posted by BIG Mike View Post

        It's not just PayPal - I suspect in the not so distant future you'll experience this with other payment processors.
        This is starting to appear like a great concern for internet marketers. Should we all board up our virtual shops and call it quits?

        That said the internet is a gold mine of buyers.
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      • Profile picture of the author kindsvater
        The FTC announces more than 150 civil, criminal, and state actions targeting work from home business opportunities.

        The US government starts seizing domains promoting copyright violations.

        ClickBank - issues new rules restricting what products can be sold and what sales pitches can state.

        Alert Pay - prohibited from sending customers checks and wire deposits by its bank processors.

        Plimus - prohibited from catering to "Internet marketing" get rich products by its bank processors.

        Ironically, all PayPal did was cancel their mutual fund and there is all sorts of speculation, supported in part by conversations with PayPal employees, about what PayPal will be doing in the future. But right now, PayPal hasn't done anything.

        .
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  • Profile picture of the author Model2Web
    Hopefully this will allow PayPal to focus more attention on developing features that help IM'ers
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    • Profile picture of the author Richard Tunnah
      I've noticed that paypal has made significant inroads the last year getting a number of large UK companies to accept paypal (companies like Monarch Airways) and laterally companies house (UK government place to file returns of UK companies etc). So maybe a move away from what paypal started as (a cheap payment gateway for many small business or sole traders).


      Rich
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  • Profile picture of the author LB
    Alert Pay - prohibited from sending customers checks and wire deposits by its bank processors.
    First I've heard of this- I thought that credit card withdrawals weren't working but the others were OK?

    Update (sort of): credit card withdrawal still not available. Try one of our other withdrawal options for now!
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    • Profile picture of the author kindsvater
      LB - You're referring to a June 1st blog post by Alert Pay re credit card withdrawals not being available.

      Check the next blog post on June 3rd - check withdrawals now also unavailable. (With the biggest B.S. I've seen in a long time about how great it is you cannot get your money as someday, if you ever get a check, it will be bigger as you accumulate more in your AP account.)

      Never heard of a company prohibited from writing a check before.

      .
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      • Profile picture of the author LB
        Originally Posted by kindsvater View Post

        LB - You're referring to a June 1st blog post by Alert Pay re credit card withdrawals not being available.

        Check the next blog post on June 3rd - check withdrawals now also unavailable. (With the biggest B.S. I've seen in a long time about how great it is you cannot get your money as someday, if you ever get a check, it will be bigger as you accumulate more in your AP account.)

        Never heard of a company prohibited from writing a check before.

        .
        I missed that. Wow, not looking good...
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  • Profile picture of the author Wolfster
    I've been warning my list and my blog visitors for quite a while now that the days of the wild, wild west on the internet are drawing to a close.

    This and various other changes are, IMHO, hints that the end is, indeed, near.

    I suspect everyone in IM who wants to stay is simply going to have to maintain higher standards and work harder at being and appearing more professional.
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  • Profile picture of the author Bruce NewMedia
    Reading all this is sobering for sure...

    If the worst parts of this are true, then being able to sell any MMO products through any established online payment system would end, correct? There's not likely to be one service that hangs out there by itself, it will likely be total then.

    In which case, how will IM marketers who sell anything in the make money space accept payment?...will this all revert back to...

    "PLEASE SEND A SELF-ADDRESSED STAMPED ENVELOPE AND ENCLOSE $37 BY CHECK OR MONEY ORDER TO THE FOLLOWING ADDRESS..."
    YOUR INSTANT DIGITAL DOWNLOAD PRODUCT WILL BE AVAILABLE IN 3 WEEKS"

    "THANK YOU FOR SHOPPING WITH US AT GET RICH SLOW, INC"
    _____
    Bruce
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    • Profile picture of the author Chris Worner
      Originally Posted by brucerby View Post

      In which case, how will IM marketers who sell anything in the make money space accept payment?...will this all revert back to...
      Hey Bruce,

      there is more than 1 way to skin a cat. Perhaps instead of selling ebooks and courses, start a membership community instead. cardrunners.com which is a poker based training website is a good example. Wealthy Affiliate is another.

      Chris
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Miranda
      Originally Posted by brucerby View Post

      Reading all this is sobering for sure...

      If the worst parts of this are true, then being able to sell any MMO products through any established online payment system would end, correct? There's not likely to be one service that hangs out there by itself, it will likely be total then.

      In which case, how will IM marketers who sell anything in the make money space accept payment?...will this all revert back to...

      "PLEASE SEND A SELF-ADDRESSED STAMPED ENVELOPE AND ENCLOSE $37 BY CHECK OR MONEY ORDER TO THE FOLLOWING ADDRESS..."
      YOUR INSTANT DIGITAL DOWNLOAD PRODUCT WILL BE AVAILABLE IN 3 WEEKS"

      "THANK YOU FOR SHOPPING WITH US AT GET RICH SLOW, INC"
      _____
      Bruce
      haha... funny. That is my thought process as well. I don't think it will come to that though.
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      • Profile picture of the author Paul Fernandez
        Great Thread!


        Paypal is definitely cracking down but it's all to do with the FTC.


        The answer takes a little work but is pretty simple....set up a "real" business (Inc., LLC, etc.) and run it like a real business. As others have posted, use Clickbank for digital products and get a Merchant Account for others - Total Merchant Services, etc.


        Diversify your business, start thinking about e-Commerce and other areas that you can still use Google PPC for.


        Don't be shady and be sure you are offering the best customer service possible!


        And lastly, don't let the "IM bad apples" affect your business! Learn and Adapt!
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  • Profile picture of the author ashbeats
    Read a few too many paypal threads here recently and it's making me nervous. So I'm seriously considering 2co & Worldpay now. More expensive & the switch will be a medium-sized-project in itself, but I think it will be worth the peace of mind.
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    • Profile picture of the author WholesalerJoe
      Dont keep all of your eggs in one basket. Spread wide and use your talents to stay ahead of the single track marketers.
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  • Profile picture of the author everydayreviews
    man, stupid feds. first it's poker, now this
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  • Profile picture of the author celente
    Them FTC boys really know how to cause drama. There are obviously alot of people out there scamming, which totally sucks.

    I for one, do not like that these scammer make it harder on us. Not good. The crack down continues.
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  • Profile picture of the author tecHead
    Originally Posted by kindsvater

    Ironically, all PayPal did was cancel their mutual fund and there is all sorts of speculation, supported in part by conversations with PayPal employees, about what PayPal will be doing in the future. But right now, PayPal hasn't done anything.
    True, but a lot of businesses have found fortune by reading trends and industry movement... we'll see if PayPal hasn't done anything continues to stand true...

    Originally Posted by BIG Mike

    It's not just PayPal - I suspect in the not so distant future you'll experience this with other payment processors.
    Mike (IMHO), you're dead on with this comment as well as everything else you've mentioned about the differences between mainstream and IM/MMO (for the most part). It goes hand in hand with my assertion that, (as legitimate business owners), we need to differentiate ourselves from the ignorant.

    Just judging from the participation of some in this thread...
    • there are those that clearly don't have a clue
    • there are those that are posting JUST to get a post slug
    • there are those that are CLEARLY misinterpreting the topic(s) at hand
    • there are those that are purposely making light of the situation
    • there are those that are coming from left field with their comment(s)

    ...but, see that's a public forum... and that's the kind of stuff you'd EXPECT to see in a public forum. Yet, when it comes to business that we rely on to put food on our tables and feed our families.. then NO, I don't think any of the listed response types above are appropriate. That's the ignorant.

    Differentiate from them when you do business OR suffer the fate that is being clearly put in front of you.

    Philosophical Rant Begin
    Yes, the Wild Wild Internet mentality is coming to a (welcomed) end. There's too much money involved in this medium for anything else to happen. Wealth and its distribution need to be regulated because of the ignorant. Otherwise, there would be no such thing as wealth; as value would be misconstrued and violated by those that could hit the hardest because (at the core) we're still barbaric. Until there is no such thing as murder, rape and hatred we'll remain barbaric and need regulation.

    With that regulation comes lessened freedoms. Some of us rebel; some of us comply willingly/reluctantly... yet, comply the same. I think the majority is in compliance.
    Philosophical Rant End

    PLP,
    tecHead
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    • Profile picture of the author marlon
      Hi,

      1. There is no official notice or reference to the issue with
      Plimus and Internet marketers on Google. The ONLY reference
      is to the thread on it in this forum.

      2. There are rumors about Paypal just as there are rumors
      in a bear market when people are afraid.

      So far, Paypal has zapped people who pretty clearly violated
      their tos with money claims in their headlines and a get-rich-
      quick or make money fast appeal.

      3. Alert Pay has issues but there's no evidence it's related
      to an FTC crackdown.

      4. The rumored FTC crackdown on Clickbank hasn't happened
      as far as I know, although they smartly tightened up their
      policies as they should have.

      5. There were rumors Paypal would systematically zap all
      people using Warrior Plus or something like that.

      ===========
      My thoughts
      ===========

      1. Get the facts before you make sweeping changes

      2. If you're making income claims and get-rich-quick claims,
      stop it just because it's a bad practice.

      3. Just because my friend put his cat in the microwave,
      doesn't make an urban legend valid.

      4. The two great motivators are fear and greed. Fear runs
      rampant in a bear market mentality.

      5. Always have a plan B.

      6. Be suspicious of people with a vested interest in spreading
      rumors and unfounded opinions.

      Let's say that I run an alternative processing service TO Paypal.
      Spreading viscous rumors is the cheapest advertising I could
      get. I suspect this might be going on.

      Remember how the head of McDonalds was a satanist or something
      like that. and Procter and Gamble was founded by satanists. And
      the litany goes on and on.

      7. What we DO know is your merchant processing is critical and
      everyone should look at their business practices, web sites and
      tighten them up.

      That probably means going for a more understated graphic design,
      understated headlines and claims, taking those dollar figures out
      of WSO subject lines and sales letters.

      8. If Armaggedon comes, the FTC puts all Internet marketers out
      of business, Paypal takes away all processing, and the computer
      that runs the European Common Market really DOES turn out to
      be the beast and force all of us to put a 6 figure bar code on our
      forehead, then run for cover!

      No really, the point of learning MARKETING and business skills is
      you can use them to sell anything to anyone.

      Best wishes,

      Marlon Sanders
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      • Profile picture of the author RussRuffino
        Marlon,

        With all due respect, if a top exec at PayPal specifically tells me that teaching people how to make money online is no longer acceptable to them, how is that "unfounded speculation"? It is straight from the horse's mouth.

        Furthermore, the ONLY webpage of mine that PayPal has EVER seen (the one they investigated when they froze my account) isn't a sales page, Squeeze Page, or ANYTHING of that nature - it's my blog (the one linked to in my sig). There's no hype or ANYTHING on that site at all - no headlines, no sales copy, nothing of the sort. Just free tips. The only thing I've ever had for sale on there is my VIP coaching, and that didn't go on sale until AFTER PayPal froze my account...so they never even saw it.

        With all due respect, you're the one who's making unfounded speculation by ASSUMING that everyone who's had their account frozen by PayPal has done something wrong. I assure you, we haven't (and THREE separate PayPal execs confirmed that on my part).

        You're right that we need to have alternatives, and that we need to run our businesses in an ethical and legal manner by looking out for our customers.

        But you're DEAD wrong if you think PayPal cares about that. I assure you, they don't. They don't have the resources to evaluate things on a case-by-case basis. They don't have time to read your headlines and your sales copy and check and see if your products deliver. They don't have time.

        The only thing they have time to do is say, "Making money online courses are causing a lot of charge backs. If a business triggers our computer to limit their account for further investigation, and we see they're teaching make money online strategies, we ban them."

        That's it. It's capricious, it's arbitrary, and you're lying to yourself if you think that being good to your customers will save you from getting banned. It absolutely will not.

        Russ
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  • Profile picture of the author tecHead
    Russ (dude),

    Listen.. I empathize with your plight; I really do. I've been there with a lot more than they've hit you over the head with. So, I understand your anger and frustration. I also applaud you for fighting; as I think you should be.

    Yet, I don't think Marlon meant what he said in the exact manner in which you seem to have taken it. What he said was meant as a positive contribution and you seem to have taken it as a negative instead.

    Bottom line... PayPal cares about covering their ass. If you can present your "business model" as one that will never cause them to get their panties in a bunch over something YOU did in THEIR house... you're golden. Regardless of what your "business model" represents and/or does. This is the same with ANY "business model". Always has been.

    "High Risk" being associated with Internet transactions is nothing new. A few years back you couldn't find a decent price for a merchant account due to the label of "high risk" being associated with this "business model". Didn't matter WHAT you sold.

    Fact of the matter is.. the CC industry wasn't created to actively facilitate "card not present" transactions. So.. no matter what "business model" OR "payment processor" OR "risk management system" is in place, there will be trials and tribulations that we'll have to deal with.

    Today... it just so happens to be PayPal. Who knows what tomorrow will bring. The only consistent thing we can count on is CHALLENGE.

    Originally Posted by Dean Whitter

    Success is awarded to those that have the fortitude to stay the course.
    PLP,
    tecHead
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  • Profile picture of the author dagaul101
    Should come as no surprise as eBay and Paypal go forth to conquer the online merchant niche
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    • Profile picture of the author ExRat
      Hi tecHead,

      (at the core) we're still barbaric. Until there is no such thing as murder, rape and hatred we'll remain barbaric and need regulation.
      Slightly off the main topic, but I've seen an alternative explanation that counters this one.

      That is, that there is a slightly 'hidden' gun in the room, that people find it easy to miss.

      All current 'regulations', laws etc are backed up with violence. If you take the violence (the gun) away, then the theory is that those people ('the regulated') will act with less barbarity.

      Those with a vested interest are keen to implant the theory that you mention - we are philistines, and regulation (backed up with a gun) will save us from ourselves.
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  • Profile picture of the author Enis
    I see a lot of people hating on paypal for a reason. I have lots of friends outside of the country unable to do business just because paypal hasn't included their country on the list. They really have to do their best to make some changes and improve the overall experience of the average user or some other company might take over just as easily if it get's plenty of support.
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  • Profile picture of the author Sumit
    Things are getting to political these days...
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  • Profile picture of the author MacS09
    Does anyone have any experience with Google Checkout?

    I have encountered it only ever once for a service I use for one of my sites and got annoyed at having to sign up to something non-PP to get the service. Now, it looks like this may well be an alternative PP.

    Why am I not using a "proper" merchant account. Cost for low turnover is the main reason. I guess once turnover reaches a certain level regularly, having your regular merchant account may well be the way forward.

    Any thoughts?

    Max
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    • Profile picture of the author RussRuffino
      Originally Posted by MacS09 View Post

      Does anyone have any experience with Google Checkout?

      I have encountered it only ever once for a service I use for one of my sites and got annoyed at having to sign up to something non-PP to get the service. Now, it looks like this may well be an alternative PP.

      Why am I not using a "proper" merchant account. Cost for low turnover is the main reason. I guess once turnover reaches a certain level regularly, having your regular merchant account may well be the way forward.

      Any thoughts?

      Max
      This is pure speculation, but I would bet that if Adwords is banning the make money online niche left and right, Google Checkout probably isn't much friendlier. Again, total speculation, but corporate policy is corporate policy.

      Russ
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      • Profile picture of the author Ralf Skirr
        If you can present your "business model" as one that will never cause them to get their panties in a bunch over something YOU did in THEIR house... you're golden.
        I highly doubt they give you the chance to 'present' anything. If your account meets their criteria for bad accounts, they will shut it down.

        Businesses with the customer count of Google, Paypal and the like don't care about the individual customer. They implement standard rules and they are ready to accept a little bit of 'collateral damage'.

        I'm not complaining, just pointing out that people shouldn't expect to get the golden treatment because they 'think' their business model should be ok for Paypal.

        Ralf
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      • Profile picture of the author LB
        Originally Posted by RussRuffino View Post

        This is pure speculation, but I would bet that if Adwords is banning the make money online niche left and right, Google Checkout probably isn't much friendlier. Again, total speculation, but corporate policy is corporate policy.

        Russ
        The Google Checkout horror stories are perhaps worse than Paypal. Anyone who has ever dealt with Google knows that they fear nothing. I see people that have written letters to 20 different people at Google, filed complaints with the FTC, BBB, attorney general and more and Google still won't even return their email.

        I have read at least two stories now where a dispute in Google checkout cost someone their Adwords account and vice versa.

        I do not use Google products unless there are no other options. I would rather deal with Paypal over Google any day of the week.

        The bottom line is that both Google and Paypal are using the 80/20 rule. They have secured large profitable accounts from large corporate brands and our small accounts mean nothing to them. They will let you play as long as you don't get flagged by their system. Once you are though, don't expect to get back in. They simply don't have the time to waste on small accounts.

        A lot of people find out that their "great reps" at Google, Paypal, etc. won't even return their calls once they get flagged.
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      • Profile picture of the author sekrupski
        Originally Posted by RussRuffino View Post

        This is pure speculation, but I would bet that if Adwords is banning the make money online niche left and right, Google Checkout probably isn't much friendlier. Again, total speculation, but corporate policy is corporate policy.

        Russ
        I agree with Russ 110%. I am a newbie at all of this IM stuff but I have over 40 years as a MBA accountant and consultant for many types of businesses. Credit card companies have felt the FEDs new rules and effect on their bottoms lines as have all the banks. Any company doing any sort of money processing is part of that fishbowl. If anyone here wants to keep beating the poor dead horse about interpretation, you'll miss the real point- time to find a few new ways to process your payments. PayPal was basically established to give eBay a way to process money and then it branched out and got huge. So where to go now? I would really APPRECIATE it if someone could LIST those options currently available because I have some great WSOs I am learning from and need a way to process all that great income I will soon be making. <G> And if PayPal doesn't want us, then I want to set-up shop with those companies who want my business and juicy fees. Why keep doing business with an entity that could bite you and take ALL your money without a single notice? So please, what other payment processors are you guys using? I've heard AlertPay, Clickbank, 2co, Authorize.net, WikiPay and merchant accounts. Anyone else? Thanks.
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  • Profile picture of the author Quentin
    Getting a merchant account wont change things that much as they already have these type of rules governing them.

    Q
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