ClickBank lets Vendors Flat Out LIE About Refund Periods?

89 replies
Wow. I'm speechless.

I have heard of a select few vendors getting permission to say their ClickBank products have a 14-day guarantee instead of the 60 day guarantee.

I was going to investigate HOW you wind up getting that permission because that'd be great to have a shorter period possibly.

I took a couple of the sites I know offer this and opened up a live chat with the ClickBank people to ask, as an affiliate, if the 14-day guarantee is real. (My next question was going to be HOW to get that).

Look at what I was told!!!

http://www.tiffanydow.com/images/cbrefund.JPG

Does anyone else find it very ODD that they specifically give a vendor permission to LIE about the refund guarantee?

I do.

So they can TELL people 14 days, but if they contact CB, they're gonna get that refund if they escalate it.

I feel they ought to either HAVE a 14 day refund period - or NOT.

No backdoor, sneaky "insider" type methods.

Tiff
#clickbank #flat #lie #periods #refund #vendors
  • Profile picture of the author Keith Boisvert
    That is odd. I had seen that (forgot the product) during some research I was doing and thought it odd.

    Interesting that they were "given permission" but its meaningless? Doesn't make sense.

    ~keith
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    • Profile picture of the author brunom
      Originally Posted by Keith Boisvert View Post

      That is odd. I had seen that (forgot the product) during some research I was doing and thought it odd.

      Interesting that they were "given permission" but its meaningless? Doesn't make sense.

      ~keith
      Are you sure they were given permission? Or was it just that they skipped verification?
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      • Profile picture of the author Keith Boisvert
        Originally Posted by brunom View Post

        Are you sure they were given permission? Or was it just that they skipped verification?
        Look at the jpg in Tiffany's OP. (its the link)

        keith
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        • Profile picture of the author brunom
          Originally Posted by Keith Boisvert View Post

          Look at the jpg in Tiffany's OP. (its the link)

          keith
          What they claim doesn't mean anything, it's easy to change the terms after CB aproves it and they won't check them again I believe.
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        • Profile picture of the author Heidi White
          Well, just because someone in Chat said it was 'OK' doesn't make it official CB policy. The supervisor could've been the peer sitting in the next cube, or maybe they stepped outside for a smoke.

          It's not like CB reads the sales copy or examines the products being delivered for FTC violations or anything.

          If some vender wants to write about their 14-day Refund on their sales page - it might deter some buyers from utilizing the 60 day refund - especially if they are not aware of the automatic 60 day refund . . . no mater what.

          If CB lets vendors flat out lie about income results, testimonials, and other things - discouraging refunds by saying it's 14 days - is just another questionable action a vendor can take - but hardly the worst thing CB let's vendors get away with . . . IMHO
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      • Profile picture of the author MatthewNeer
        This is some shady business. Its just BEGGING the FTC to come regulate on CB and similar sites.
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  • Profile picture of the author Diane S
    Tiffany, the more I use ClickBank the less shocked I am about things like this. They figured out long ago that their profits are maximized when they give the shaft to the affiliates and vendors.
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  • Profile picture of the author ChristopherTheron
    Wow. Permission to lie to your customers granted. Not very good at all.
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  • Profile picture of the author TiffanyLambert
    I tell you what, Diane. Initially my intent was to discover how one gets that permission to HAVE a 14 day refund period but if it's phony, I won't do it anyway.
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    • Profile picture of the author Dan C. Rinnert
      Could it be that the vendor will not honor the guarantee after 14 days but that Clickbank still will?
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      • Profile picture of the author TiffanyLambert
        Originally Posted by Dan C. Rinnert View Post

        Could it be that the vendor will not honor the guarantee after 14 days but that Clickbank still will?
        Might be. But I know some of the buyers get blocked by the vendor with a denial and they buyer doesn't KNOW they can escalate it THEMSELVES. If they get a "no" from the vendor, they think it's the end of the road.

        Good for blocking thieves, bad for blocking legit requests.
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        • Profile picture of the author Dan C. Rinnert
          Originally Posted by TiffanyDow View Post

          Might be. But I know some of the buyers get blocked by the vendor with a denial and they buyer doesn't KNOW they can escalate it THEMSELVES. If they get a "no" from the vendor, they think it's the end of the road.

          Good for blocking thieves, bad for blocking legit requests.
          But, they knew that going in, no? They knew that they would only have 14 days to request a refund from the vendor, because that's what the vendor's sales letter said.

          I mean, if I shop at a store and buy a product with a 14 day guarantee, is it the vendor's fault they didn't inform me that the store that carries their product offers a 30 day guarantee on all goods they sell?
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          • Profile picture of the author TiffanyLambert
            Originally Posted by Dan C. Rinnert View Post

            But, they knew that going in, no? They knew that they would only have 14 days to request a refund from the vendor, because that's what the vendor's sales letter said.

            I mean, if I shop at a store and buy a product with a 14 day guarantee, is it the vendor's fault they didn't inform me that the store that carries their product offers a 30 day guarantee on all goods they sell?
            I see what you're saying Dan but here's my thinking too...

            It's widely known that CB has a 60 day refund guarantee. The sales letter I looked at had one little sentence about 14 days. Chances are they didn't even see that. (their fault - sure okay).

            But if I'm buying a CB product, I'm thinking 60 days is across the board. I might have heard a recommendation from Dan and trust his word, and order on a trust basis - feeling confident it's CB. And not thoroughly read every single word of a LONG sales letter. (again ASSuming its 60 days for everyone).

            Then I get in, don't like it, or whatever, and can't refund (I think) but really I can if I know the truth.

            LOL! Just laughable to me.
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            • Profile picture of the author mojojuju
              I know it may seem unintuitive, but I believe that in some cases, stating a 14 day refund period may increase conversions over stating a 60 day refund period.

              I don't think there's anything dishonest about offering a 14 day refund if Clickbank has given express permission to the vendor.
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            • Profile picture of the author Dan C. Rinnert
              Originally Posted by TiffanyDow View Post

              It's widely known that CB has a 60 day refund guarantee.
              Well, maybe in IM circles.

              But if I'm buying a CB product, I'm thinking 60 days is across the board. I might have heard a recommendation from Dan and trust his word, and order on a trust basis - feeling confident it's CB. And not thoroughly read every single word of a LONG sales letter. (again ASSuming its 60 days for everyone).

              Then I get in, don't like it, or whatever, and can't refund (I think) but really I can if I know the truth.
              But you should also no how archaic Clickbank's system is. They probably can't differentiate between vendors who have a 60 day guarantee and those they've allowed to have a shorter period. So, when a customer approaches them directly for a refund, they'll probably just look to see whether or not it's within the standard 60 day refund period.

              So, vendors might have a shorter refund period stated in their sales page, but Clickbank probably has no way to tell who has what refund period when someone gets to asking for a refund.
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      • Profile picture of the author scrofford
        Originally Posted by Dan C. Rinnert View Post

        Could it be that the vendor will not honor the guarantee after 14 days but that Clickbank still will?
        That's exactly what they do Dan. As you know CB purchases the product from the vendor so they can do what they want. I still think it's shady though.
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        • Profile picture of the author Luke Graham
          Originally Posted by scrofford View Post

          That's exactly what they do Dan. As you know CB purchases the product from the vendor so they can do what they want. I still think it's shady though.
          Erm, since when?

          Its been a while since i had a product on CB but..... they are merely a payment processor. For me to sell my product on their network (and have the added bonus of exposure to affiliates) i had to accept the fact that *THEY* have a 60 day refund policy..... I could choose to go elsewhere if i didnt like that policy.

          They - not once - purchased my product, and neither were they shady, underhanded, cheating or lie to me..... or forced me to show a refund on my copy...

          How is this "shady" in any way - if you dont like it, go and create your own payment processor, or use paypal, gocheckout and one of the many other ones out there.... (until someone has issues with policies on them)
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          • Profile picture of the author scrofford
            Originally Posted by Luke Graham View Post

            Erm, since when?

            Its been a while since i had a product on CB but..... they are merely a payment processor. For me to sell my product on their network (and have the added bonus of exposure to affiliates) i had to accept the fact that *THEY* have a 60 day refund policy..... I could choose to go elsewhere if i didnt like that policy.

            They - not once - purchased my product, and neither were they shady, underhanded, cheating or lie to me..... or forced me to show a refund on my copy...

            How is this "shady" in any way - if you dont like it, go and create your own payment processor, or use paypal, gocheckout and one of the many other ones out there.... (until someone has issues with policies on them)
            Wrong! Clickbank actually purchases the product from the vendor. You need to read the information on their site. They are not "just" the payment processor.

            here's the link. It's under "Transaction Charges." Click here

            It's shady because they allow the vendor to say one thing and allow something completely different. If that isn't shady, I don't know what is.

            If you don't even realize they are buying the product from you, then you really have no idea what you are doing when it comes to being a CB vendor.
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            • Profile picture of the author TiffanyLambert
              Originally Posted by kindsvater View Post

              I'm wrong? Really? That ClickBank is prohibited from making a special deal with one of its vendors? Come on.
              Oh no I'd fully clap for them if they offered certain vendors the perk of having a 14 day refund policy.

              But the problem is, it's not TRUE.

              The screen shot flat out says it's permission to SAY that, but it's not the truth.

              That's where I have a problem.
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            • Profile picture of the author Luke Graham
              Originally Posted by scrofford View Post

              If you don't even realize they are buying the product from you, then you really have no idea what you are doing when it comes to being a CB vendor.
              I am well aware of what CB does, and doesnt do with things i have listed and/or promoted - being liars, scammers, shady and underhanded doesnt come into it however. tyvm.
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              • Profile picture of the author scrofford
                Originally Posted by Luke Graham View Post

                I am well aware of what CB does, and doesnt do with things i have listed and/or promoted - being liars, scammers, shady and underhanded doesnt come into it however. tyvm.
                Well you must not be well aware of what CB does because you said in an above post that they didn't purchase the products from the vendors. It seems to me that if you didn't know that one basic detail, you really need to read up about what CB does.

                I never did call CB liars, scammers blah blah. What I said was that that particular thing about the refunds was shady. Get your facts straight.
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                • Profile picture of the author TiffanyLambert
                  Originally Posted by LB View Post

                  As a Clickbank vendor I can state that on more than one occasion Clickbank has assisted me by issuing a refund AFTER the 60-day period has elapsed. Is that wrong?
                  No because it's beneficial for the person who put up the money. Now as a vendor, if I had a 60 day return policy and CB let someone refund at day 90, I'd be pissed - because they say 60 days. There's no iffy "sometimes it's only 14 days, sometimes it's not" here. They flat out SAY that the refund isn't really true. Why even HAVE a refund period, I wonder? Why not just leave it up to the discretion of the seller?

                  Originally Posted by scrofford View Post

                  I never did call CB liars, scammers blah blah. What I said was that that particular thing about the refunds was shady. Get your facts straight.
                  Right. I love CB personally. I just found it creepy almost that they blatantly allow someone to mis-state the facts.
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                  • Profile picture of the author ShayB
                    This really isn't all that unusual for businesses.

                    There is usually a "posted" refund policy and an "actual" refund policy. (I have 15 years of sales/retail/management experience, so I've seen it often.)

                    The posted might say:

                    "Refunds are only for items with the original tags attached and when accompanied by an original receipt within 30 days."

                    In reality, management knows that you have 90 days for a refund or store credit and they'll take stuff back with or without a receipt.

                    Why? Because it cuts down on refunds. But it also gives management some leeway if a customer really raises heck.

                    Is it the way I do things? No. But it really isn't uncommon, and if you buy something and you're told you have x number of days to return it, then you agreed to those terms - whether or not there is a longer refund period available.

                    IMHO, of course.
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                  • Profile picture of the author LB
                    Originally Posted by TiffanyDow View Post

                    No because it's beneficial for the person who put up the money. Now as a vendor, if I had a 60 day return policy and CB let someone refund at day 90, I'd be pissed - because they say 60 days. There's no iffy "sometimes it's only 14 days, sometimes it's not" here. They flat out SAY that the refund isn't really true. Why even HAVE a refund period, I wonder? Why not just leave it up to the discretion of the seller?



                    Right. I love CB personally. I just found it creepy almost that they blatantly allow someone to mis-state the facts.
                    A: Sales page says 14 days, but buyer can get refund at 60 days.
                    B. Sales pages says 60 days, but buyer can get refund at 100 days.

                    I'm failing to see the difference here.

                    For what it's worth, Clickbank has also issued refunds after 60 days without my approval. Typically this type of thing happens if a customer calls and threatens a chargeback or something.

                    The reality is that there is only contracts at play. If a customer buys from a page clearly stating 14 days, then they have agreed to that contract. There is no deception there. The customer was never told 60 days, but then later told 14.
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                    • Profile picture of the author TiffanyLambert
                      Originally Posted by LB View Post

                      A: Sales page says 14 days, but buyer can get refund at 60 days.
                      B. Sales pages says 60 days, but buyer can get refund at 100 days.

                      I'm failing to see the difference here.
                      Me neither. I don't understand why anything isn't as stated, period.

                      The reality is that there is only contracts at play. If a customer buys from a page clearly stating 14 days, then they have agreed to that contract. There is no deception there. The customer was never told 60 days, but then later told 14.
                      But the deception is - it isn't true. They CAN in fact get a refund up to 60 days, not 14. That's what I find odd. If they want to give a vendor 14 days, let them have 14 days!

                      Just my opinion.
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                      • Profile picture of the author LB
                        Originally Posted by TiffanyDow View Post

                        Me neither. I don't understand why anything isn't as stated, period.



                        But the deception is - it isn't true. They CAN in fact get a refund up to 60 days, not 14. That's what I find odd. If they want to give a vendor 14 days, let them have 14 days!

                        Just my opinion.
                        My point is that 60 days isn't "true" either...CB can, and does, issue refunds after the 60 days have elapsed.

                        I think they once issued a refund for me that was nearly a year old. It took a few days for them to see if they could, but they did. (guy was double-charged, but didn't notice it for a year...I know, I don't get it either)

                        I'm not arguing with you, I can see why it comes across as a little strange. I'm just saying that at the end of the day, it's just a matter of expectations. If the customer expected only 14 days, then there was no deception.
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                        • Profile picture of the author TiffanyLambert
                          Originally Posted by LB View Post

                          My point is that 60 days isn't "true" either...CB can, and does, issue refunds after the 60 days have elapsed.

                          I think they once issued a refund for me that was nearly a year old. It took a few days for them to see if they could, but they did. (guy was double-charged, but didn't notice it for a year...I know, I don't get it either)

                          I'm not arguing with you, I can see why it comes across as a little strange. I'm just saying that at the end of the day, it's just a matter of expectations. If the customer expected only 14 days, then there was no deception.
                          But what if the customer expects it to be 60 days because they know CB has a 60 day refund policy? lol
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                          • Profile picture of the author mojojuju
                            Originally Posted by TiffanyDow View Post

                            But what if the customer expects it to be 60 days because they know CB has a 60 day refund policy? lol
                            They shouldn't expect it to be 60 days if the sales page explicitly states that it's 14 days. And by the way, Clickbank's refund policy is not unconditional:

                            ClickBank will, at its discretion, allow for the return or replacement of any product within 60 days from the date of purchase. For recurring billing products, returns for more than one payment may be provided if requested within the standard 60 day return period.


                            It seems to me that if Clickbank's refund policy is based on their discretion, then they could - at their discretion AND without any wrongdoing - allow a vendor to advertise a 14 day refund policy. I don't think there's anything unethical about that.

                            Clickbank may not be doing what you want them to do or what you expect them to do, but I don't think that means they're doing anything unethical or illegal.

                            There's no lying going on, and there's nothing scandalous about Clickbank allowing some vendors to offer a 14 day refund.
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                            • Profile picture of the author TiffanyLambert
                              Originally Posted by mojojuju View Post

                              They shouldn't expect it to be 60 days if the sales page explicitly states that it's 14 days.
                              Well based on that screen shot of my conversation, they should! LOL!

                              It seems to me that if Clickbank's refund policy is based on their discretion, then they could - at their discretion AND without any wrongdoing - allow a vendor to advertise a 14 day refund policy. I don't think there's anything unethical about that.
                              TOTALLY agree - I would have NO problem with them allowing a 14 day refund policy - but it's not a true statement, which in my OPINION, is shady!

                              We're all allowed opinions still
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                              • Profile picture of the author mojojuju
                                Originally Posted by TiffanyDow View Post

                                Well based on that screen shot of my conversation, they should! LOL!
                                It's just a chat transcript that shouldn't be considered their official company policy. You and I and everyone else know though that Clickbank would probably offer a refund to anyone within 60 days, even though the vendors page says 14 days. They probably will every time.


                                Originally Posted by TiffanyDow View Post

                                TOTALLY agree - I would have NO problem with them allowing a 14 day refund policy - but it's not a true statement, which in my OPINION, is shady!
                                Of course it's a true statement. It's the vendor's refund policy. The vendor will give you a refund up to 14 days after purchase. It is truthful for the vendor to say that because that is the length of a refund period which the vendor will honor.

                                There's nothing shady about it. The vendor had Clickbank's express permission based on Clickbank's discretion to offer a 14 day refund.

                                Originally Posted by TiffanyDow View Post

                                We're all allowed opinions still
                                Sure you're allowed an opinion. Even I get one. I do think your original post painted this whole "custom refund duration" for vendors as a bit scandalous, and I think that was a bit unfair to Clickbank and the vendors who've made these arrangements.
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                • Profile picture of the author Conjur
                  The vendors in question are leaving themselves open to some tricky legal issues here.

                  Clickbank will always honor the 60 day period, and will give a refund to anybody who asks in the proper way before that deadline.

                  If the vendor states a shorter period on the sales page they are only exposing themselves to serious ramifications.

                  Let's say it's a crappy, spammy product and even one person figures out that they can go to Clickbank after the alleged 14 day period and get a refund. Then let's suppose the FTC gets involved.

                  Once they determine that an "exception" was made, even once, from the stated policy on the sales page they can force the vendor to write to everybody who ever bought the product to let them know that they actually had the right to ask for a refund after the 14 day stated period.

                  They will then have to give a refund to anybody who states that if they had been aware of that they would have asked for a refund. And this can be years after the true 60 day period has expired.

                  I really hope that some of these dishonest vendors get stung with something like that as it is never a good idea to lie to prospective customers!

                  If they are afraid that too many people are going to refund then their product is probably rubbish and they shouldn't be selling it in the first place!
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                  • Profile picture of the author Dan C. Rinnert
                    Originally Posted by Conjur View Post

                    If the vendor states a shorter period on the sales page they are only exposing themselves to serious ramifications.

                    Let's say it's a crappy, spammy product and even one person figures out that they can go to Clickbank after the alleged 14 day period and get a refund. Then let's suppose the FTC gets involved.

                    Once they determine that an "exception" was made, even once, from the stated policy on the sales page they can force the vendor to write to everybody who ever bought the product to let them know that they actually had the right to ask for a refund after the 14 day stated period.
                    In this case, the vendor's refund period and ClickBank's refund period differ. That's all. If each is honoring their stated refund periods, there is no issue.

                    If I offer a 30 day money back guarantee on a product I sell, I don't have to tell you that your credit card company may give you a 60 day money back guarantee on products you buy using their card. All I need to do is tell you what my refund policy is and to honor my refund policy.
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                    • Profile picture of the author Conjur
                      Originally Posted by Dan C. Rinnert View Post

                      In this case, the vendor's refund period and ClickBank's refund period differ. That's all. If each is honoring their stated refund periods, there is no issue.

                      If I offer a 30 day money back guarantee on a product I sell, I don't have to tell you that your credit card company may give you a 60 day money back guarantee on products you buy using their card. All I need to do is tell you what my refund policy is and to honor my refund policy.
                      I have to disagree with you here. The customer payment method is a different matter. When the customer clicks buy the final sales page they see will be the vendor's Clickbank sales page, which will refer to a 60 day refund policy. That becomes the vendor's official refund policy, notwithstanding anything the customer sees on earlier pages. Clickbank is an agent of the vendor, not an agent of the customer's chosen payment method.
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                  • Profile picture of the author mojojuju
                    An example of a product sold on Clickbank which advertises A 14 day refund period is "Bring the Fresh". This site was mentioned in another thread regarding it's 14 day refund policy.

                    I see nothing wrong with Clickbank allowing vendors to offer a 14 day refund period.

                    Let's see, the Bring the Fresh site mentions a 14 days, satisfaction guaranteed, Money back guarantee:


                    Is that in some way dishonest?

                    If a customer then clicks the "Add to Cart" button, they'll arrive at the Clickbank payment page. And nothing about that page has any dishonesty or "shadiness" either:



                    Is there any lying on that payment page?

                    Some people might say "Well, the vendor's 14 day refund policy conflicts with Clickbank's 60 day refund policy."

                    To that, I say what part of Clickbank's return policy does the Vendor's 14 day refund policy conflict with?

                    Clickbank's refund policy is explained right here. (edit: and here)

                    If anybody can find anything in Clickbank's policy which would make it illegal for a vendor to offer 14 day refunds, then please just paste the relevant part of Clickbank's refund policy here in this thread. Where is it?
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                    • Profile picture of the author AlfredKo
                      There are always 2 sides of a coin. 2 scenarios:

                      1. Lowering your refund period from 60 to 14 days might lower your conversion rates.
                      In the end, less sales, less signups, less money.

                      2. Having a 14-day refund period might increase the refund rate. It's the same as giving 7-day refund period. You can bet some of the customers will ask for refund right on 7th day.
                      Same reason some merchants prefer a 60-90-365 days refund period. People will just forget about it.
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                      • Profile picture of the author mojojuju
                        Originally Posted by AlfredKo View Post

                        There are always 2 sides of a coin. 2 scenarios:

                        1. Lowering your refund period from 60 to 14 days might lower your conversion rates.
                        In the end, less sales, less signups, less money.

                        2. Having a 14-day refund period might increase the refund rate. It's the same as giving 7-day refund period. You can bet some of the customers will ask for refund right on 7th day.
                        Same reason some merchants prefer a 60-90-365 days refund period. People will just forget about it.
                        3. Lowering your refund period from 60 to 14 days might raise your conversion rates. This is similar to how some people have noticed increased conversions after raising the price of their product. It may seem unintuitive, and only testing will reveal what works best.

                        4. Having a 14-day refund period might decrease the refund rate. Heck, it might encourage people to feel more of an urgency to make up their minds quicker by making them think in terms of a shorter time frame (14 days vs 60 days). Again, testing will reveal the outcome better than speculating will.

                        5 ?

                        6 ?

                        .....
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                        • Profile picture of the author kellyburdes
                          I test to the point of being kinda OCD about it, and I've never found that to be the case. Without a single exception, every single time I increase the duration of my refund period I decrease my refund rate. Every single time.

                          I also talk to a lot of people who are also testing junkies, and I can't think of anyone else who's experience is not the same as mine. My lowest refunds are when I can convince my merchant to allow me to give a 1 year refund.


                          Originally Posted by mojojuju View Post

                          3.

                          4. Having a 14-day refund period might decrease the refund rate. Heck, it might encourage people to feel more of an urgency to make up their minds quicker by making them think in terms of a shorter time frame (14 days vs 60 days). Again, testing will reveal the outcome better than speculating will.

                          5 ?

                          6 ?

                          .....
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        • Profile picture of the author rts2271
          Walmart and there vendors do it. Vendors say right on the package 7 day full money back refund. But if you bought it at Walmart you will always get 30 days. No difference and certainly nothing deceptive. One is the vendors policy one is the merchants. In this case the vendor is using the merchant to sell product. The same goes for Clickbank.

          I don't know how yall meandered down the they said to lie path. They didn't ever. They just gave permission for the vendor to display there own refund policy which has no bearing on Clickbanks policy as the merchant. The only one who mentioned a lie was the OP.
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          • Profile picture of the author WritingMadwoman
            This is interesting because the last product I sold on Clickbank, it was initially rejected because I didn't word my refund guarantee to say "60 days" or "8 weeks" - if I remember right I said 2 full months or something like that.

            I had to change the page so it read specifically 60 days or 8 weeks, and then it was approved.

            Apparently that's not the case any more (granted this was a couple of years ago), or maybe just not the case for everyone.

            I guess by the vendor stating a 14-day refund policy they're hoping to cut down on the number of people requesting refunds? Kind of silly if Clickbank will still grant them up to 60 days - but if some of the customers don't realize that...

            Wendy
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          • Profile picture of the author TiffanyLambert
            Originally Posted by rts2271 View Post

            Walmart and there vendors do it. Vendors say right on the package 7 day full money back refund. But if you bought it at Walmart you will always get 30 days. No difference and certainly nothing deceptive. One is the vendors policy one is the merchants. In this case the vendor is using the merchant to sell product. The same goes for Clickbank.

            I don't know how yall meandered down the they said to lie path. They didn't ever. They just gave permission for the vendor to display there own refund policy which has no bearing on Clickbanks policy as the merchant. The only one who mentioned a lie was the OP.
            Great analogy! Good way of seeing i another way...

            But I think when you buy something at Walmart, the receipt has the refund policy on it. As opposed to someone buying a CB policy having to go search for themselves on the CB website to see what the refund policy is.

            And the difference is, too, if I want to return a pair of sunglasses, I don't have to contact the sunglasses maker. I just take it to Walmart.

            If I want to return an eBook, I believe the vendor gets initial discretion in some cases to correspond with you first and then escalate it for a refund.

            Or no? I may be wrong.
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            • Profile picture of the author rts2271
              Originally Posted by TiffanyDow View Post

              Great analogy! Good way of seeing i another way...

              But I think when you buy something at Walmart, the receipt has the refund policy on it. As opposed to someone buying a CB policy having to go search for themselves on the CB website to see what the refund policy is.

              And the difference is, too, if I want to return a pair of sunglasses, I don't have to contact the sunglasses maker. I just take it to Walmart.

              If I want to return an eBook, I believe the vendor gets initial discretion in some cases to correspond with you first and then escalate it for a refund.

              Or no? I may be wrong.
              I think your correct but I think they can also just have CB handle it if its a non-support item like a ebook or whatnot.

              What really scares me is how quick we are to jump on the bandwagon that someone is misleading or lying utilizing a method thats already been modeled and vetted in the brick and mortar world.

              Now heres where a Vendor would get the boot from CB. 90 day money back guarantee. That would get them the boot quicker then cat crap on a linoleum floor.
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  • Profile picture of the author TiffanyLambert
    No actually the person specifically had to ask a supervisor for the correct response.

    I think it's odd that they're so persnickety about making sure the verbiage on your sales page is JUST right before approval - and then let this slip through?

    Why not just let everyone state no refunds and then refund anyway? Silly.
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    • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
      Banned
      Originally Posted by TiffanyDow View Post

      I think it's odd that they're so persnickety about making sure the verbiage on your sales page is JUST right before approval - and then let this slip through?
      I think this isn't quite comparing like with like, Tiff, if I may say so: there are legal and regulatory considerations involving "the verbiage on the sales page" that don't apply in quite the same way to refund periods ... it surely won't be against the law to allow refunds for a longer period than stated on the sales page? :confused:
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  • Profile picture of the author kindsvater
    ClickBank is the retailer and if they want to work out a 14-day public / 60-day actual refund deal with a product supplier I don't see the problem or the "lie".

    Special deals are worked out all the time between companies.

    And if ClickBank wants to issue a refund after 2 years all they have to do is send out a check. They can ask the vendor to cover the loss. It's all negotiable.

    .
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    • Profile picture of the author The Copy Nazi
      Banned
      Originally Posted by kindsvater View Post

      ClickBank is the retailer and if they want to work out a 14-day public / 60-day actual refund deal with a product supplier I don't see the problem or the "lie".

      Special deals are worked out all the time between companies.

      And if ClickBank wants to issue a refund after 2 years all they have to do is send out a check. They can ask the vendor to cover the loss. It's all negotiable.

      .
      Absolute rubbish. Here are their terms - verbatim - from their site -
      ClickBank is committed to ensuring satisfaction for all customers who purchase its products. As the leading retailer of digital products, ClickBank relies on its Return and Cancellation Policy to help ensure this satisfaction.
      ClickBank's Return Policy

      Our return policy for all ClickBank products is as follows:
      ClickBank will, at its discretion, allow for the return or replacement of any product within 60 days from the date of purchase. For recurring billing products, returns for more than one payment may be provided if requested within the standard 60 day return period.
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      • Profile picture of the author Alan Petersen
        Originally Posted by The Copy Nazi View Post

        Absolute rubbish. Here are their terms - verbatim - from their site -
        " ...at its discretion..." I'm not an attorney nor do I play one on the Internet but that legalese translates that it's up to them if they want to change it at their discretion to 14 days or 14 years. Just my interpretation. Brian is an attorney so see what he thinks.

        Hey Tiff, I doubt ClickBank would just eat it. They would probably take it out of the vendor's payment.
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        • Profile picture of the author The Copy Nazi
          Banned
          Originally Posted by Alan Petersen View Post

          " ...at its discretion..." I'm not an attorney nor do I play one on the Internet but that legalese translates that it's up to them if they want to change it at their discretion to 14 days or 14 years. Just my interpretation. Brian is an attorney so see what he thinks.

          Hey Tiff, I doubt ClickBank would just eat it. They would probably take it out of the vendor's payment.
          So what? Law is based on "intent". Their whole model is based around the 60 Day Refund. I could care less that Brian is an attorney. He's wrong.
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          • Profile picture of the author kindsvater
            Wrong about what? It's ClickBank's contracts. They are offering 60-day refunds as referenced on their website. If they also want to enter into a special deal for someone to list a 14-day period on their website that is their business. If ClickBank wants to give someone a refund after 2 years that can do that too.

            If I publicly offer a 25% commission on a product that doesn't mean I cannot offer a 40% commission to select partners.


            And if you would actually read the ClickBank policy:

            "Our return policy for all ClickBank products is as follows: ClickBank will, at its discretion, allow for the return or replacement of any product within 60 days from the date of purchase."

            It says nothing about refunds just for grins. It is all within ClickBank's discretion. Moreover, a "return or replacement" is allowed. When was the last time ClickBank asked you to return a purchase to get a refund?

            The problem here is people are not actually reading or understanding ClickBank's policies, and trying to rigidly enforce some policy that not only does not exist, but which ClickBank can change for any vendor it wants.

            I'm wrong? Really? That ClickBank is prohibited from making a special deal with one of its vendors? Come on.

            Maybe that's a problem in France. Not in the US.

            .
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            • Profile picture of the author The Copy Nazi
              Banned
              Originally Posted by kindsvater View Post

              Wrong about what? It's ClickBank's contracts. They are offering 60-day refunds as referenced on their website. If they also want to enter into a special deal for someone to list a 14-day period on their website that is their business. If ClickBank wants to give someone a refund after 2 years that can do that too.

              If I publicly offer a 25% commission on a product that doesn't mean I cannot offer a 40% commission to select partners.


              And if you would actually read the ClickBank policy:

              "Our return policy for all ClickBank products is as follows: ClickBank will, at its discretion, allow for the return or replacement of any product within 60 days from the date of purchase."

              It says nothing about refunds just for grins. It is all within ClickBank's discretion. Moreover, a "return or replacement" is allowed. When was the last time ClickBank asked you to return a purchase to get a refund?

              The problem here is people are not actually reading or understanding ClickBank's policies, and trying to rigidly enforce some policy that not only does not exist, but which ClickBank can change for any vendor it wants.

              I'm wrong? Really? That ClickBank is prohibited from making a special deal with one of its vendors? Come on.

              Maybe that's a problem in France. Not in the US.

              .
              Really? LOL. Then they say -
              2. Do any ClickBank products have a different return policy?

              Our vendors are not permitted to make any guarantee that conflicts with our return policy. However, we have an enormous inventory of products and it can be difficult to monitor all of them all the time. If you find a product with any warranty that conflicts with our return policy, please bring it to our attention so that we can take corrective action.
              "Our return policy". So you have thousands of sites that are saying "Hey...no worries - you're protected by Clickbank's 60 Day Refund Policy". At their discretion. Laughable. You either have a 60 Day Refund Policy or you don't - or at least you make it obvious that some products don't - and that isn't obvious at all.

              And it has nothing to do with France - I'm Australian anyway.
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  • Profile picture of the author timpears
    This permission will benefit both CB and the vendor by convincing the buyer to not refund if they go over the 14 day period. If they don't bother to refund, then CB and the vendor don't have to deal with it. If they do refund anyway, they will get the refund.

    Damn sneaky underhanded, if you ask me. This tells me that CB is not exactly an ethical company.
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    • Profile picture of the author Luke Graham
      Originally Posted by timpears View Post

      Damn sneaky underhanded, if you ask me. This tells me that CB is not exactly an ethical company.
      Why?

      *they* refund up to 60 days, since they handle the transaction - there's nothing in their T&C's that says the merchant has to also offer a 60 day refund..... at the end of the day, yes its CB doing the refunding, but perhaps the merchant is confident in their product that they believe a shorter refund period suits it better in their copy.....
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      • Profile picture of the author timpears
        Originally Posted by Luke Graham View Post

        Why?

        *they* refund up to 60 days, since they handle the transaction - there's nothing in their T&C's that says the merchant has to also offer a 60 day refund..... at the end of the day, yes its CB doing the refunding, but perhaps the merchant is confident in their product that they believe a shorter refund period suits it better in their copy.....
        As Tiffany's post stated, the guarantee will be 60 days, no matter what it says on the web site. CB knows it is 60 cays, but the buyer doesn't. CB allowed the vendor to lie, and supports it. That is unethical to lie on sales pages.

        Confidence has nothing to do with it, the vendor knows that CB will refund up to 60 days, and therefore is telling the lie. CB has given permission for this to take place.
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        • Profile picture of the author Luke Graham
          Originally Posted by timpears View Post

          Confidence has nothing to do with it, the vendor knows that CB will refund up to 60 days, and therefore is telling the lie. CB has given permission for this to take place.
          What utter rubbish. Do you use CB? Or any other payment processor for that matter?

          Its no different - as an example, of an electric retailer offering a 7 day refund on their goods (which they do), but a credit card company offering a 30 day one (which they do) - the CC company cant enforce it upon everyone to obey the 30 day rule, the only difference is that CB (to the best of my knowledge) do not allow merchants to offer longer than 60 days.

          Edit - I have just seen Ralphs post above (#32) which does a much better analogy than mine - same meat, different gravy.
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          • Profile picture of the author timpears
            Originally Posted by Luke Graham View Post

            What utter rubbish. Do you use CB? Or any other payment processor for that matter?

            Its no different - as an example, of an electric retailer offering a 7 day refund on their goods (which they do), but a credit card company offering a 30 day one (which they do) - the CC company cant enforce it upon everyone to obey the 30 day rule, the only difference is that CB (to the best of my knowledge) do not allow merchants to offer longer than 60 days.

            Edit - I have just seen Ralphs post above (#32) which does a much better analogy than mine - same meat, different gravy.
            What does my use of CB have to do with anything. I am not the one that is telling a lie.

            CC companies do not force vendors to honor a 30 or any other day guarantee of satisfaction. The CC companies allow for charge backs if the vendor does not live up to their claims. If they deliver defective products, or don't deliver what they promised, then you can escalate it.

            In this situation, the vendor publishes a 14 refund policy, and in fact the refund policy is 60 days. No matter how you slice it, that is a lie, and the only reason I can think of for this is to try and ward of any attempt at refunds after the first two weeks. Which is devious.
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            • Profile picture of the author Luke Graham
              Originally Posted by timpears View Post

              What does my use of CB have to do with anything. I am not the one that is telling a lie.
              It was meant as a source of experience - clearly something you are lacking in....

              CC companies do not force vendors to honor a 30 or any other day guarantee of satisfaction. The CC companies allow for charge backs if the vendor does not live up to their claims. If they deliver defective products, or don't deliver what they promised, then you can escalate it.
              So, not that indifferent to a vendor offering a 14 day money back and CB 60 then? Glad we agree. If you aren't satisfied, seek a refund.

              In this situation, the vendor publishes a 14 refund policy, and in fact the refund policy is 60 days. No matter how you slice it, that is a lie, and the only reason I can think of for this is to try and ward of any attempt at refunds after the first two weeks. Which is devious.
              And yet you make an excuse from your OWN example above? why?
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              • Profile picture of the author timpears
                Originally Posted by Luke Graham View Post

                It was meant as a source of experience - clearly something you are lacking in....
                So if I am not a CB vendor, I can't judge ethics? Don't follow your logic here. But then I haven't seen any logic in your posts so far.

                Whether I am or am not a CB vendor is irrelevant, and I have not stated whether I am or am not. So don't be so quick to judge.

                Originally Posted by Luke Graham View Post

                So, not that indifferent to a vendor offering a 14 day money back and CB 60 then? Glad we agree. If you aren't satisfied, seek a refund.
                The issue in my mind is that the vendor is lying to the buyer in order to trick them in thinking they only have 14 days to refund. Hopefully those that are still trying to decide to refund or not will think that they only have 14 days and just say I am going to refund before I run out of time.

                Originally Posted by Luke Graham View Post

                And yet you make an excuse from your OWN example above? why?
                I have no idea what you are talking about. The only excuses I have seen here are for CB and the vendor for their lying to customers.
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      • Profile picture of the author Michael Mayo
        Originally Posted by Luke Graham View Post

        Why?

        *they* refund up to 60 days, since they handle the transaction - there's nothing in their T&C's that says the merchant has to also offer a 60 day refund..... at the end of the day, yes its CB doing the refunding, but perhaps the merchant is confident in their product that they believe a shorter refund period suits it better in their copy.....
        I have to disagree as this is straight from ClickBanks site:
        Return and Cancellation Policy - ClickBank

        -------------
        Details of ClickBank's "Return Policy"
        Customers requesting a return after 60 days will be directed to the vendor for technical support or customer service. Vendors may request a return, on behalf of customers, of any purchase up to 90 days after the date of the ClickBank customer's purchase.


        Returns will only be credited back to the account used to make the original purchase. If the original account has been closed, the purchase is not eligible for return.


        When a sale is returned, the customer receives a 100% refund. Payouts from that sale are debited back out of the corresponding vendor and affiliate accounts.


        Our vendors are not permitted to make any guarantee that conflicts with our "Return Policy". If you find a product sold through ClickBank with any warranty that conflicts with our return policy, please bring it to our attention so that we can take corrective action.
        ------------

        Although, I really don't see anything wrong with allowing ALL/Some Vendors to choose a shorter guarantee period if they choose since CB will still honer it up to 60 days for the customer and 90 days for the vendor if the vendor feels the customer deserves it.

        That's just Business!

        Just my .02,
        Have a Great Day!
        Michael
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    • Profile picture of the author Vanessa Reece
      Originally Posted by timpears View Post

      This tells me that CB is not exactly an ethical company.
      I was never convinced they were that ethical to begin with. I have never sold anything on there but I am an affiliate and that experience is a twisty little web.

      I can definitely see both sides of the argument but CB (like PP) will pretty much operate how they wish to unless they are called out by higher powers.

      V
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      • Profile picture of the author timpears
        Originally Posted by ITS-V View Post

        I was never convinced they were that ethical to begin with. I have never sold anything on there but I am an affiliate and that experience is a twisty little web.

        I can definitely see both sides of the argument but CB (like PP) will pretty much operate how they wish to unless they are called out by higher powers.

        V
        I hear you talking. My sentiments exactly.
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        • Profile picture of the author Mark Alan
          I don't think it is shady. It seems sort of like a smart thing to do to hold down refunds and CBs and I think that is really what this is related to. I suspect Click Bank has the 60 day policy because their bank has told them they can't avoid a CB for 60 days on an intangible Internet product so basically they have to issue a refund whenever asked within 60 days to avoid a CB.

          For example If I buy a membership product from a non click bank merchant that says 14-day money back guarantee and a month and a half later I have buyer's remorse so I call my bank and they tell me I can charge it back because it is within 60 days that doesn't mean the merchant was being dishonest because he was saying a 14 day refund period. It is simply a reality because of banking rules. In a case like this my bank will actually call the merchant in question and advise them to issue a refund to avoid the CB.
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  • Profile picture of the author Alan Petersen
    I remember awhile back someone posted that ClickBank issued a refund well past the 60-day official guarantee period without even asking the vendor so it appears the posted guarantee refund period is subject to change as ClickBank sees fit. Their network, their rules I guess.
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  • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
    Banned
    Originally Posted by TiffanyDow View Post

    Does anyone else find it very ODD that they specifically give a vendor permission to LIE about the refund guarantee?
    That is bizarre and I imagine the FTC would be interested in that.
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    • Profile picture of the author kellyburdes
      I can't imagine that the FTC would care about this, but of course the government is all about making something out of nothing...so it's possible.

      It would be a problem if they said "60 day refunds", but then only honored it for 14 days...and in such a case you can bet the FTC would get involved (people go to jail for that type of thing)..but saying your refund period is 14 days and then actually honoring it out to 60, I don't think that's going to be something they would get too involved with.

      I almost always give refunds in my business if someone asks for them. I state on my site that I offer a 30 day refund, but if someone comes to me even a year after they buy the product and wants a refund, honestly I just don't want to deal with it, and if your not happy with what I've sold you I don't feel like taking your money... so I give it..so I'm not seeing a problem with this.


      Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

      That is bizarre and I imagine the FTC would be interested in that.
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  • Profile picture of the author scrofford
    Originally Posted by TiffanyDow View Post

    Wow. I'm speechless.

    I have heard of a select few vendors getting permission to say their ClickBank products have a 14-day guarantee instead of the 60 day guarantee.

    I was going to investigate HOW you wind up getting that permission because that'd be great to have a shorter period possibly.

    I took a couple of the sites I know offer this and opened up a live chat with the ClickBank people to ask, as an affiliate, if the 14-day guarantee is real. (My next question was going to be HOW to get that).

    Look at what I was told!!!

    http://www.tiffanydow.com/images/cbrefund.JPG

    Does anyone else find it very ODD that they specifically give a vendor permission to LIE about the refund guarantee?

    I do.

    So they can TELL people 14 days, but if they contact CB, they're gonna get that refund if they escalate it.

    I feel they ought to either HAVE a 14 day refund period - or NOT.

    No backdoor, sneaky "insider" type methods.

    Tiff
    Yeah they have been doing that for a long time. I don't remember when I heard about it...a couple of years ago...I think it's pretty shady myself.
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  • Profile picture of the author TiffanyLambert
    So some people are stating CB is the retailer, and they're allowing the refund, not the vendor, so it's okay -

    But does that mean the vendor gets to keep the money and CB eats it? I don't think so. I'd be surprised if that was true.

    I'm just weirded out they'd flat out admit they give people permission to say something that isn't true.

    Oh well, no skin off my nose - I know i won't offer this type of refund and I now know it's phony if I ever see it. I was just curious what my fellow Warriors think.

    LOL!
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  • Profile picture of the author WebPen
    Isn't Clickbank getting more strict with the claims that vendors can put on their salespages?

    And isn't the FTC looking closer at Clickbank every year because of all the "earn a million in a week" kinda garbage?

    I don't use CB too much because I've heard too many horror stories, but I'm still surprised that something this blatant would come out.
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  • Profile picture of the author LB
    As a Clickbank vendor I can state that on more than one occasion Clickbank has assisted me by issuing a refund AFTER the 60-day period has elapsed. Is that wrong?
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  • Profile picture of the author Heidi White
    I'm not a CB vendor, nor do I play one on TV (sorry - couldn't resist ) but I still say that a Chat Session does not constitute any evidence of real company policies.



    "Dear FTC, The company that handled that particular chat transaction was outsourced, that employee was terminated, and the supervisor had no record of relaying that information - nor would they have if requested. That company has since been replaced.


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    • Profile picture of the author chumpschimps
      Originally Posted by MostlyHarmless View Post

      I'm not a CB vendor, nor do I play one on TV (sorry - couldn't resist ) but I still say that a Chat Session does not constitute any evidence of real company policies.



      "Dear FTC, The company that handled that particular chat transaction was outsourced, that employee was terminated, and the supervisor had no record of relaying that information - nor would they have if requested. That company has since been replaced.


      YouTube - ‪Customer Service: supervisor‬‏
      I also wouldn't be surprised if they cited some breach of privacy law in posting a conversation in a forum.
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  • Profile picture of the author Bruce NewMedia
    Purely from a sales perspective, I don't see advertising a shorter Refund period as a benefit anyway.

    If these 'select' vendors state 14 day MBG, I suspect they will get the same or even more refunds. The very short time frame will make it more urgent for buyers to act if they're dissatisfied at all.

    To me, the Clickbank refund problem is not the length of the MBG, it's the automatic ease of it, the total ability to circumvent the vendor/seller, and the increasing awareness of both by the public.
    _____
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    • Profile picture of the author MikeHumphreys
      Originally Posted by brucerby View Post

      Purely from a sales perspective, I don't see advertising a shorter Refund period as a benefit anyway.

      If these 'select' vendors state 14 day MBG, I suspect they will get the same or even more refunds. The very short time frame will make it more urgent for buyers to act if they're dissatisfied at all.
      Bruce is dead-on right.

      As a professional copywriter and avid tester, I've tested length of guarantees for info-products (non-ClickBank that is).

      The general rule of thumb is the longer the guarantee, the lower the refund rate the seller will see.

      So a 14 day refund policy is NOT a benefit to the seller. It's going to give the seller more refunds because people who are on the fence about "keeping" the product will refund if they haven't gotten around to using the product in 14 days.

      However... it's an urgency tactic. It's a way to get people to take action and start going through the training SOONER.

      To me, the Clickbank refund problem is not the length of the MBG, it's the automatic ease of it, the total ability to circumvent the vendor/seller, and the increasing awareness of both by the public.
      _____
      Bruce
      Bruce has another great point. I've gotten hit with a chargeback through ClickBank long after their stated 60 day money back guarantee and ClickBank basically told me to suck it up and take it.

      Speaking of ClickBank's policies...

      ClickBank's 60 day guarantee stinks for any vendors doing a monthly membership site because a customer can refund 2 months worth of fees on day 59 simply by asking for a refund.

      It's a loophole that can lead to a lot of vendors getting ripped off by refund vultures.

      I'd love to see Clickbank fix it by changing their MBG for membership sites so it's just one month's fee being refunded.

      Hope that helps,

      Mike
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      • Profile picture of the author rts2271
        The bottom line is

        For vendors through Clickbank and many other merchant systems, you can define your own policies for refunds and guarantees. This isn't deceptive. Its one channel among many your purchase goes through that you may seek remediation.

        For Consumers
        Always..... Caveat Emptor
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  • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
    Originally Posted by TiffanyDow View Post

    Does anyone else find it very ODD that they specifically give a vendor permission to LIE about the refund guarantee?
    You're missing something.

    The vendor has one refund period. Clickbank has another. If you pay through PayPal, PayPal has their own. And if you pay with a credit card, your issuing bank has one too.

    So you can certainly have a 14 day refund period from the vendor, 45 days from PayPal, 60 days from Clickbank, and 90 days from your bank.

    Nobody is lying unless you ask the vendor for your money back on day 15 and he gives it to you. If you want your money back after 14 days, you have to get it through another channel.
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    • Profile picture of the author TiffanyLambert
      Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

      You're missing something.

      The vendor has one refund period. Clickbank has another. If you pay through PayPal, PayPal has their own. And if you pay with a credit card, your issuing bank has one too.

      So you can certainly have a 14 day refund period from the vendor, 45 days from PayPal, 60 days from Clickbank, and 90 days from your bank.

      Nobody is lying unless you ask the vendor for your money back on day 15 and he gives it to you. If you want your money back after 14 days, you have to get it through another channel.
      Yes others have stated things about product manufacturers having one refund, stores having another, credit card companies having another.

      I guess someone should make it all uniform because I don't care if you're buying an eBook via CB or a toilet seat from Home Depot, the consumer has to dig around a hell of a lot to see if they have any recourse.

      Like I said, just weird to me. That's all

      I think it'd be weird if Walmart had a 30 day refund policy and specifically TOLD manufacturers of the products they stocked that they could certainly TELL consumers the refund period was shorter, even though WM knows it isn't. Just weird.
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      • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
        Originally Posted by TiffanyDow View Post

        I guess someone should make it all uniform
        I'm generally not a fan of someone else making my business decisions for me. Sometimes it makes sense to have a shorter refund period, or even no refund period at all, and in general I think the business owner tends to be best-qualified in choosing who will make that decision.
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        • Profile picture of the author TiffanyLambert
          Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

          I'm generally not a fan of someone else making my business decisions for me. Sometimes it makes sense to have a shorter refund period, or even no refund period at all, and in general I think the business owner tends to be best-qualified in choosing who will make that decision.
          True - agree with it from a vendor's perspective. But what if you're the consumer?

          It's not fun to be confused with 3 possible refund periods. lol
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          • Profile picture of the author Dan C. Rinnert
            Originally Posted by TiffanyDow View Post

            True - agree with it from a vendor's perspective. But what if you're the consumer?

            It's not fun to be confused with 3 possible refund periods. lol
            If you're the consumer, it could be to your benefit to have multiple refund periods rather than just one.

            Let's use Caliban's example: "So you can certainly have a 14 day refund period from the vendor, 45 days from PayPal, 60 days from Clickbank, and 90 days from your bank."

            So, let's say I buy a product from John Smith and he offers a 14 day refund.

            After 13 days, I decide the product really isn't good and I want a refund.

            John Smith is unresponsive.

            I keep trying to get my refund. After a week or two of trying to contact John Smith to get my refund and not hearing back, then I contact PayPal for a refund, since I'm still within their refund period.

            They refuse because it's a digital product.

            Okay, so I argue, but they won't bend.

            So, now maybe it's been a month of doing this, trying to get my refund.

            Well, I have to give up on PayPal, but now I can try ClickBank.

            ClickBank, in its discretion, turns down my refund request.

            Again, I go back and forth. And they don't budge.

            Two months have gone by now, with all these eMails and waiting for responses and so on.

            But, it's okay because I am still within my bank's refund period. So, I can contact them to try to get my money back.

            So, with the multiple refund periods, I can escalate things and not worry about running out of time.

            But, if everyone had the same refund period, and I'm towards the end of that refund period, who do I contact?

            Well, everyone is going to want me to work it out with the vendor first. But, if the vendor is non-responsive, and my attempts to contact him exceed the refund period, then I may not be able to get a refund through the other parts in the chain because I didn't contact them within the refund period.

            It's nice to have options.

            If everyone had the same refund period, then you would probably end up getting shortchanged more often than you would with staggered refund periods.
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            • Profile picture of the author mojojuju
              Yeah, what he ^ said.
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              :)

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            • Profile picture of the author Heidi White
              Originally Posted by Dan C. Rinnert View Post

              If you're the consumer, it could be to your benefit to have multiple refund periods rather than just one.

              Let's use Caliban's example: "So you can certainly have a 14 day refund period from the vendor, 45 days from PayPal, 60 days from Clickbank, and 90 days from your bank."

              So, let's say I buy a product from John Smith and he offers a 14 day refund.

              After 13 days, I decide the product really isn't good and I want a refund.

              John Smith is unresponsive.

              I keep trying to get my refund. After a week or two of trying to contact John Smith to get my refund and not hearing back, then I contact PayPal for a refund, since I'm still within their refund period.

              They refuse because it's a digital product.

              Okay, so I argue, but they won't bend.

              So, now maybe it's been a month of doing this, trying to get my refund.

              Well, I have to give up on PayPal, but now I can try ClickBank.

              ClickBank, in its discretion, turns down my refund request.

              Again, I go back and forth. And they don't budge.

              Two months have gone by now, with all these eMails and waiting for responses and so on.

              But, it's okay because I am still within my bank's refund period. So, I can contact them to try to get my money back.

              So, with the multiple refund periods, I can escalate things and not worry about running out of time.

              But, if everyone had the same refund period, and I'm towards the end of that refund period, who do I contact?

              Well, everyone is going to want me to work it out with the vendor first. But, if the vendor is non-responsive, and my attempts to contact him exceed the refund period, then I may not be able to get a refund through the other parts in the chain because I didn't contact them within the refund period.

              It's nice to have options.

              If everyone had the same refund period, then you would probably end up getting shortchanged more often than you would with staggered refund periods.
              That was supposed to be funny, right?

              That whole scenario sounded like a nightmare, not "it's nice to have options."

              Honestly, how often does CB not honor a refund request within the 60 days? - and would a buyer even bother with the vendor in the first 14 days - or just go through CB for a refund?
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          • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
            Originally Posted by TiffanyDow View Post

            But what if you're the consumer?
            I don't believe in refunds. If I was stupid enough to give you the money, you're entitled to keep it - because when I don't face consequences for making bad choices, I never get any better at making them.
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  • Profile picture of the author TiffanyLambert
    Dan that sounds like a system to exhaust someone into giving up LOL!

    Maybe I'm annoyed because of the run around I got with 2 car dealerships lately. I won, but I had to fight and stress and wonder. I hate **** like that.

    I'd prefer one flat out simple refund period. You get it or you don't. But as CD says - then people are running your business.

    It's all screwy! LOL!
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    • Profile picture of the author Dan C. Rinnert
      Originally Posted by TiffanyDow View Post

      Dan that sounds like a system to exhaust someone into giving up LOL!
      It's a safety net.

      It's like paying for a product with your credit card through PayPal. If I then have a problem with that product, I can contact the vendor. If the vendor leaves my unsatisfied, I can contact PayPal. If PayPal doesn't help me, I can contact my credit card company.
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  • Profile picture of the author John Alves
    I'm pretty sure I know what product you're talking about. I don't think it matters if someone states it's a 14 day money back guarantee or a 60 day money back guarantee. It doesn't take 14 days to realize that a product is not worth the money. Offering a 14 day money back guarantee may actually be worse than a 60 because people feel more inclined to get through the content quick and get their money back quick.

    With a 60 day money back guarantee, especially with a "membership" course, you could offer more content within that timeframe. The buyer may eventually feel that it is worth the money. If I buy a ClickBank product, it will only take about 2 days for me to determine whether or not I feel it's worth the money. A 5 day money back guarantee would work fine for me.
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  • Profile picture of the author dagaul101
    It's sad that this happens, it could be the employees weren't up to date with Clickbank's policy on refunds (then again could be an easy excuse)
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  • Profile picture of the author celente
    I think it is up to the user to find out this too. Its part of being a buyer, or seller you need to know exactly what you need to know.
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  • Profile picture of the author Nikhil V Nair
    Clickbank is playing some hidden games here


    https://www.clickbank.com/return_policy.html

    In order to allow the 14 days return policy, they must change their current policy. It doesn't matter whether it increases or decreases the refund rate. It is an entirely different issue.

    Money is THE most important factor for Clickbank, Not Customers

    Let me show you some controversial products from the Clickbank's marketplace



    Here is a bunch of complaints

    Fullmovies.com Complaints - Fullmovies.com fraud/ buyer beware

    Another one



    Real review here [Not affiliate "genuine" review ]

    moviescapital.com Complaints - Fraud

    There are many such sites in the Clickbank marketplace.

    60 days money back guarantee is not an excuse to do all shady things

    Even a small kid knows that these kinds of "Unlimited" movie download and Music download sites are illegal. (These sites are not delivering what it promises that is another issue)

    Why Clickbank can't stop accepting payments for these sites?

    The simple answer is they bring a lot of money even after huge refunds and charge backs. "Genuine" affiliates are driving traffic like crazy

    Clickbank may not be able to check the credibility of all the ebooks and videos sold through them. But if they cannot stop these illegal sites, they shouldn't be allowed to do business online



    Here is the funny part. Now Paypal has no problem processing payments for these scams.

    Why don't they limit Clickbank's paypal account

    If I sold such a product through paypal, my account would have been frozen immediately after the very first sale

    When Paypal work with another Giant(Clickbank), No problem

    I wish FTC took some action against Clickbank and force them to stop some of these shady practices going on for years.

    I have been waiting for an opportunity to reveal these things for years. Now I am relaxed
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