[UPDATED - SF WEEKLY] Amazon To TERMINATE Affiliate Accounts In California | Warrior Forum - The #1 Digital Marketing Forum & Marketplace

guitarjosh

14 years ago

Holy moley. Some folk are gonna' be piiiiised off.

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zenmack 14 years ago

Originally Posted by guitarjosh

Holy moley. Some folk are gonna' be piiiiised off.

Yup, I am pissed. I had just set my girlfriend up with a Amazon affiliate program for her site How To Dress For Men| Dressing lessons for men to attract the eyes of women. and was going to open up a store for her and...

I set up my son with a skateboard shop http://8385shop.com and that is down the tube too.

And my own bookstore for the dating niche will be trashed:

Player Supremes Store

And what is funny is I just got a 13.00 check from them yesterday. Must of been my severance pay...lol.
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- zenmack 14 years ago
  
  Book store is still there and links work but the affiliate is probably disconnected.
  
  Forgot to check.
  
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  whynes 14 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by zenmack
  
  Book store is still there and links work but the affiliate is probably disconnected.
  
  Forgot to check.
  
  I would expect the links will continue to work forever. Amazon has sent
  your termination notice. It's effective immediately. As far as the nexus
  law goes, the ties are severed.
  
  Since they have no control over what you do with your website, they'll
  be quite happy to let you drive traffic to their site without compensation.
  
  Business is business.
  
  As I've posted earlier, I have no ill will toward Amazon. I did,
  however, immediately take down any pages with clickable links
  to the Amazon store. And I've removed my URL from my signature.
  
  As I said, business is business. I don't drive traffic for free,
  even if I have to do a little work to make sure I don't. More
  of a symbolic gesture than anything else, since I'm brand
  new at this.
  
  Hopefully, by next Wednesday, I'll be approved for skimlinks,
  switched the links in my site, and be back up waiting for my
  first sale
  
  Thanks
  
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brunom

14 years ago

Oh my god, glad I'm not from California. I wasn't expecting that.

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BloggingPro

14 years ago

I was using an address in New Mexico and just moved it to a parents address in California because I heard through the pipeline New Mexico was going down. Now I'm moving it back to New Mexico. I will open a bank account and PO box in every damn state if I have to, to keep my Amazon Associates account alive.

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J Bold

14 years ago

Originally Posted by BloggingPro

I was using an address in New Mexico and just moved it to a parents address in California because I heard through the pipeline New Mexico was going down. Now I'm moving it back to New Mexico. I will open a bank account and PO box in every damn state if I have to keep my Amazon Associates account alive.

Try one of those business friendly states like Nevada, etc.

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canard5 14 years ago

Just got the same email. Hmmm I hadn't made any money with Amazon yet, but now I guess I can't.
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MatthewNeer 14 years ago

Originally Posted by redicelander

Try one of those business friendly states like Nevada, etc.

Spot on! Gotta love me some Nevada!
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johnjg 14 years ago

YES! Absolutely. Open up a box at a UPS store or any other Mailbox service. Register there, and have all of your money sent there - bank account set up there, etc... You CAN work around this, you just have to take some steps to ensure that your earnings are not lost.

I'm not from California... But I do feel for all of you there! Sorry to hear this, very sorry!
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The Copy Nazi

Banned 14 years ago

So I guess you Californians need to relocate your ISP to another state no? Bizarre.

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BloggingPro 14 years ago

Originally Posted by The Copy Nazi

So I guess you Californians need to relocate your ISP to another state no? Bizarre.

No just change your mailing address inside the account.

When I first signed up I was a Colorado associate. The very next day they dumped Colorado affiliates (we were one of the first to go). So I drove about an hour down to a city in New Mexico and opened up a bank account and PO box. It would still be working if I didn't get spooked a few months ago and switch to an address in California.

I changed it back yesterday for most of my tracking numbers, but I forgot one--and got this email. I am going to be so mad if I did myself in with the move.
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zoqy71 14 years ago

It will not be long before this idea goes international. The E.U. is already looking at ways to tax 9sales tax/duty) sales from 'off shore' sellers. I will become a case of double taxation. Bad for everyone and a major set back to internet retailing.
Plans are afoot to also tighten up personal taxation. i.e. if you earn from a U.S. based company, you will have to pay tax on those earnings in the U.S. first and then again in your country of residence. That could well mean paying 80% tax on your gross income.
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TryBPO

14 years ago

Ouch...just read about this in the WSJ:

Amazon Threatens to Cut Affiliates in California - WSJ.com

I think they're politicking...just trying to apply pressure to make sure this doesn't happen.

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Vanessa Reece 14 years ago

It's very difficult to have an opinion on this without getting too political. I'm not effected by this but I definitely feel everyone should be supporting fellow IM-ers and blogging this all over the place - not just regarding Cali but in general. Can we get a viral 'hell no' going on the net I wonder?

The short term solution is to change states for business - but what happens when more and more states decide to follow suit? I don't know if that's even possible? Is any state truly safe from this forever? Food for thought.

Thanks for the heads up Matthew.
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kindsvater

14 years ago

The only thing surprising about this is that there was anyone in the Amazon program still having a California address in their account.

Now the question is whether Amazon will sell off its California subsidiaries. It will still owe sales taxes even without affiliates because of its related business entities.

.

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kindsvater

14 years ago

Here's the REAL problem ...

CA legislator's don't get paid until there is a budget deal. The new deal just announced anticipates $200 Million in revenue from the Amazon tax.

But if Amazon pulls out, there is no $200M, and no balanced budged.

Maybe instead of posting here this logic should be sent to the CA state controller telling him to keep withholding their pay. A huge hole just got shot into the budget.

.

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SteveDolan

14 years ago

Originally Posted by kindsvater

Here's the REAL problem ...

CA legislator's don't get paid until there is a budget deal. The new deal just announced anticipates $200 Million in revenue from the Amazon tax.

But if Amazon pulls out, there is no $200M, and no balanced budged.

Maybe instead of posting here this logic should be sent to the CA state controller telling him to keep withholding their pay. A huge hole just got shot into the budget.

.

Well I earn a fair amount from Amazon as an affiliate. If this law passes (and it probably will with a string lobby from Big Box retailers) then not only does CA NOT get the sales tax revenue from Amazon (and eventually every other online retailer) but they'll lose the tax on the income that I was making.

Kinda reminds me of a little known law passes in the UK in 2000 called IR35 (I'm from London originally). It wiped out my consulting business so I emigrated to the US so that I could continue to work. The predicted tax revenues from that also never materialized and caused a 'brain drain' in the UK.

This legislation will also have far reaching and unintended consequences too. Personally I'll just use either my Nevada or Alaska Corporations for all affiliate programs from now on.

Thanks

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HigherPrThanGod

14 years ago

Originally Posted by kindsvater

Here's the REAL problem ...

CA legislator's don't get paid until there is a budget deal. The new deal just announced anticipates $200 Million in revenue from the Amazon tax.

But if Amazon pulls out, there is no $200M, and no balanced budged.

Maybe instead of posting here this logic should be sent to the CA state controller telling him to keep withholding their pay. A huge hole just got shot into the budget.

.

ROFL..

I'm not saying anything else, because IT WOULD BE POLITICAL.

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Christi 14 years ago

Hi guys,

Newby here based in CA. Hubby and I own an affiliate website which we launched just over two months ago.

So far we have received termination notices from the following affiliate stores:

-Amazon
-6pm
-Endless.com (owned by Amazon)
-Overstock
-Cabela's
-Total Gym

We're expecting to be inundated with termination notices in the next few days. To the extent where, if we get too many termination notices, we will have to go out of business before we barely started.

Good job Governor!
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- Captain Bert 14 years ago
  
  Cabellas has a location in CA already, strange that since they charge CA sales tax they would terminate an Affiliate
  
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  1 reply
  
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  Paul Koenig 14 years ago
  
  Wow that's terrible.
  I agree CA will lose out on a lot of revenue.
  People won't shut down their business.
  I wouldn't.
  
  LLC Registration in NH is only $100.
  I'm in the process of registering my business there.
  
  Also, NH has is state tax free (except for food products).
  
  Thanks
  
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stiznef

14 years ago

Liberal Jerry Brown is an idiot. Amazon pulled the plug. Now he's got nothing.

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jakdwak

14 years ago

I just got my notice from Amazon. I currently don't make any money from them but I just started adding more of their fantastic Omakase ads on a few of my sites. I was already planning to get an address in Vegas as my internet income rose to some higher level so now that level has moved a lot lower.

Just found this with some quick research:

$10 Mailbox Rentals, Mail Forwarding, FREE Resident Agent, Notary - Las Vegas NV

So for ten bucks a month I can get a Vegas address and I assume I can use my existing Ally bank account or just use Paypal as a go between? I'll cross that bridge when I come to it. It's so sad how this state is being run into the ground. I could write an essay on the causes.

You can't totally blame the politicians, they were elected. We'll see what happens next election.

Future Nevada resident,

Cheers!

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WhosGotMoves

14 years ago

Originally Posted by jakdwak

I just got my notice from Amazon. I currently don't make any money from them but I just started adding more of their fantastic Omakase ads on a few of my sites. I was already planning to get an address in Vegas as my internet income rose to some higher level so now that level has moved a lot lower.

Just found this with some quick research:

$10 Mailbox Rentals, Mail Forwarding, FREE Resident Agent, Notary - Las Vegas NV

So for ten bucks a month I can get a Vegas address and I assume I can use my existing Ally bank account or just use Paypal as a go between? I'll cross that bridge when I come to it. It's so sad how this state is being run into the ground. I could write an essay on the causes.

You can't totally blame the politicians, they were elected. We'll see what happens next election.

Future Nevada resident,

Cheers!

So jakdwak for $10 a month we can set up a NV address in amazon and hopefully beat this silly technicality? From what I'm reading this is a great find especially for those just starting out with Amazon. I would hate to lose all the time and effort I've spent building my Amazon sites.

Here's something interesting for us CA's.. $99 LLC filing and mail fwding. What do you think?

http://www.freeregisteredagent.com/n...FQtggwodXBLCYA

Thanks
3 replies

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zapseo

14 years ago

Back in 2005 LegalZoom informed me that it's a BAD IDEA ... a VERY VERY BAD IDEA -- for a California resident to form a corporation in another state if you cannot show that you are substantially doing business in that state.

Put another way ... if CA finds out you are a resident conducting most of your business (whatever that may mean, obviously subject to a politician's interpretation -- which won't be in your favor, guaranteed) in California -- and the corp is registered in another state -- CA may decide to have you, your business and your income for breakfast, lunch and dinner.

There are, undoubtedly, ways around some of these issues. However, simply forming an LLC in another state without due diligence could leave you in a nasty position. Consult your attorneys and your CPAs for further advice.

(And DON'T take legal or accounting advice off of unlicensed professionals on the WF. There's nothing new in the advice in the previous sentence -- we've been saying that for years here on the WF.)

Live JoyFully!

Judy

Originally Posted by WhosGotMoves

So jakdwak for $10 a month we can set up a NV address in amazon and hopefully beat this silly technicality? From what I'm reading this is a great find especially for those just starting out with Amazon. I would hate to lose all the time and effort I've spent building my Amazon sites.

Here's something interesting for us CA's.. $99 LLC filing and mail fwding. What do you think?

Free Registered Agent - $99 Nevada Corporation/LLC Special Offer

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kindsvater

14 years ago

Originally Posted by zapseo

Back in 2005 LegalZoom informed me that it's a BAD IDEA ... a VERY VERY BAD IDEA -- for a California resident to form a corporation in another state if you cannot show that you are substantially doing business in that state.

Put another way ... if CA finds out you are a resident conducting most of your business (whatever that may mean, obviously subject to a politician's interpretation -- which won't be in your favor, guaranteed) in California -- and the corp is registered in another state -- CA may decide to have you, your business and your income for breakfast, lunch and dinner.

Judy, that's important if you are trying to avoid paying CA income taxes. At some point, if you are in CA and especially if the revenue is transferred to CA for your personal use, then the state will claim CA income taxes are owed.

It is similar to the many billions big corps are holding on offshore accounts. When the money comes ashore it is taxed.

But very different from the question of whether you can get an Amazon account using an out-of-state corp. If you're paying CA income taxes it shouldn't be an issue for you. I have yet to hear of Amazon conducting a big investigation, asking for ownership details, bank accounts, contracts, money transfers, etc., to make a "legal determination" of whether you are sufficiently in a state eligible for their affiliate program.

.

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dunkinbbb 14 years ago

Kindsvater:

So I live in CA full time. I form a NV corp and NV bank account for Amazon transfers. Since I am physically still in CA and therefore CA has said sales taxes are due it, am I not an accomplice - and liable - if Amazon does not collect sales taxes since it believes this is occuring in NV. I guess what I am really asking - does my physical location matter re:sales taxes?

Thanks for sharing your expertise.
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jakdwak

14 years ago

Originally Posted by WhosGotMoves

So jakdwak for $10 a month we can set up a NV address in amazon and hopefully beat this silly technicality? From what I'm reading this is a great find especially for those just starting out with Amazon. I would hate to lose all the time and effort I've spent building my Amazon sites.

Here's something interesting for us CA's.. $99 LLC filing and mail fwding. What do you think?

Free Registered Agent - $99 Nevada Corporation/LLC Special Offer

Wow, good find. I think from what I'm reading here you'd also need an IP address in Nevada or outside of California. This is off the top of my head, what if you use Google mail and all your sites are In Texas, like at Hostgator? How is Amazon or the state going to know the difference when it comes to orders being placed through your site?

Thanks
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whynes

14 years ago

Originally Posted by EvolBaby

Whynes, I'd not been aware of the other affiliate programs that just dropped the hammer on their members.

See below, or: http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...ifornia-2.html

Originally Posted by Christi

Hi guys,

Newby here based in CA. Hubby and I own an affiliate website which we launched just over two months ago.

So far we have received termination notices from the following affiliate stores:

-Amazon
-6pm
-Endless.com (owned by Amazon)
-Overstock
-Cabela's
-Total Gym

We're expecting to be inundated with termination notices in the next few days. To the extent where, if we get too many termination notices, we will have to go out of business before we barely started.

Good job Governor!

Originally Posted by Page-One

Luke, you too are wrong. Yes, Nevada too is likely soon to pass an Amazon tax, after which Amazon will shut down the affiliate program here. But no, Nevada is one of a handful of states that levy NO state income tax. I've lived and worked here for many years, and never paid a dime of state income tax. There isn't even a bureaucracy or paperwork to support it.

Thanks Page-One. That's an important bit of first-hand info for some of us trying to figure out
options. Much appreciated.

Thanks

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rom173

14 years ago

Originally Posted by WhosGotMoves

So jakdwak for $10 a month we can set up a NV address in amazon and hopefully beat this silly technicality? From what I'm reading this is a great find especially for those just starting out with Amazon. I would hate to lose all the time and effort I've spent building my Amazon sites.

Here's something interesting for us CA's.. $99 LLC filing and mail fwding. What do you think?

Free Registered Agent - $99 Nevada Corporation/LLC Special Offer

I ordered this earlier today http://www.maillinkplus.com/index.php after I received notice. Just be aware that you have to fill out usps 1583 form and may have to have it notarized, then sent back to them. I have the new address, but am skeptical about using it for Amazon just yet. I'm still considering applying for a nevada LLC after reading this thread. LLC's seem like the better way to go. I can't afford to make a mistake as I was making really good money with Amazon....till today =(

Edit: After reading all of Page-One's posts, LLC's don't even look good. God Help us All! Lets get rid of these politicians who have no value, create no jobs, and think that taxing the already struggling is the answer. And I don't want to hear another word from these guys about making us more competitive with China. In doing so we will have to earn much less than we are now, in order for companies to move manufacturing jobs back to the US.

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Sonomacats

14 years ago

Originally Posted by jakdwak

I just got my notice from Amazon. I currently don't make any money from them but I just started adding more of their fantastic Omakase ads on a few of my sites. I was already planning to get an address in Vegas as my internet income rose to some higher level so now that level has moved a lot lower.

Just found this with some quick research:

$10 Mailbox Rentals, Mail Forwarding, FREE Resident Agent, Notary - Las Vegas NV

So for ten bucks a month I can get a Vegas address

I was just going to let everyone know about this place. There are also other ones in New Mexico and Wyoming where you can get a privacy proof LLC, as well. And if it's true that Nevada is going to go after Amazon, then head for New Mexico.

Here's the deal for all of you California (and other affiliates that Amazon dumped).

You do not have to change your ISP or your bank account. Just because your original bank account is in California (for example), does not mean you live there. You can move across the country and still keep the bank account you opened in California.

Get the Las Vegas address and then act as if you live there - especially if you don't work for an outside employer.

Change your Amazon address. They only go by what's in your profile. If they send you mail, Maillink will forward the mail to wherever you happened to be.

Full time RVers use this kind of service all the time. So all you have to do is pretend you're a full time RVer operating out of Las Vegas.

While I'm planning on ditching California shortly, until then, I'm acting as if I've already moved. My bank sends me everything online so I don't have to worry about them. And any mail I want goes to Las Vegas and they forward it to me whenever I want.

Don't let the government in your state screw you over. They don't get that taxing Amazon (and other online companies) just because they have affiliates in that state will just cut the revenues and hurt small businesses - which is what affiliates are.

Don't take it lying down. If you're not ready to leave California yet, just act as if you have. Take your address to another state. New Mexico and Wyoming are also still good. So is Oregon.

Even better, you get to keep your income in those states because the state isn't dipping in your pocket.

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Page-One

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Sonomacats

Full time RVers use this kind of service all the time. So all you have to do is pretend you're a full time RVer operating out of Las Vegas.

While I'm planning on ditching California shortly, until then, I'm acting as if I've already moved. My bank sends me everything online so I don't have to worry about them. And any mail I want goes to Las Vegas and they forward it to me whenever I want.

So you think this is going to work really well for you when Amazon shuts off its affiliate program here? And it WILL be doing so, as soon as the Amazon tax bill moving through the state legislature passes. Please, you Californians, don't just jump out of the frying pan into the fire...do your homework and realize that Nevada is highly likely to have no Amazon affiliate program soon. Don't believe it? Try Googling "nevada amazon tax" and read up.

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jakdwak

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Page-One

So you think this is going to work really well for you when Amazon shuts off its affiliate program here? And it WILL be doing so, as soon as the Amazon tax bill moving through the state legislature passes. Please, you Californians, don't just jump out of the frying pan into the fire...do your homework and realize that Nevada is highly likely to have no Amazon affiliate program soon. Don't believe it? Try Googling "nevada amazon tax" and read up.

So I guess eventually the Seychelles, Panama and any other tax free countries are going to be getting a lot of mail forwarding business?

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jakdwak

14 years ago

Sad that the voters didn't vote Meg Whitman, CEO of Ebay, into office. What a different future Cali would have. Sad.

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kencalhn

14 years ago

as I posted in another similar thread:

a) Amazon doesn't need you. This is a windfall for all non-USA affiliate webmasters (eg Canada, the UK, India, Australia, wherever).

Affiliate sales are what percentage of Amazon's total revenue mix, anyways? When was the last time You bought something from some amazon affiliates' link? I never have. I type amazon.com in my browser to buy stuff. Amazon USA vs non-USA affiliate sales revenue are what percentages for them? I don't think they need USA-based affiliates as much as you may think. Building your business on the back of someone elses, as an affiliate of theirs, is very risky anyways.

b) Most other states will almost certainly follow suit, and leave it to our big government to come in with some Federal tax mandate even if the states don't all start taxing online sales, which they will anyways.

The handwriting's on the wall. While I won't say 'affiliate marketing is dead', quite yet, lol -- what do You think our cash-strapped states and federal government will do in the months and years ahead? Tax all internet sales, of course. It's on the way.

As someone who has been online fulltime since the late 90s, I can reiterate that it's important to create your own products, brand and value-add out there, not just sell other people's stuff for a living. For a lot of reasons.

too bad, as I had gotten amazon affiliate-based sites up and running for my wife to get her start in IM via fitness video reviews/aff links, and it was a good start.. but since we're in a newly taxed state we had to scrap that. I certainly see the appeal of amazon's affiliate program, it's great. But since the tax issue came up, we're also shut out of participating.

-k

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JustVisiting

14 years ago

Originally Posted by kencalhn

Affiliate sales are what percentage of Amazon's total revenue mix, anyways? When was the last time You bought something from some amazon affiliates' link?

Sales by Associates are about 40% of Amazon sales.

That's if you believe this Wikipedia reference.

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&sou...P6M0sg&cad=rja

Some Warriors make 5 figure incomes each month as Amazon Associates.

If any of these live in California I reckon they will be flipping their sites for a pretty penny or moving to another state.

Cheers

Paul

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myob

14 years ago

[DELETED]

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David McKee

14 years ago

Originally Posted by myob

Many California Amazon affiliates are making 6 figure incomes each month. And we are not all flipping out or moving. A simple solution is just to form an LLC in Deleware, Nevada, or any number of other non-nexus states. :rolleyes:

Not a viable solution for a new affiliate just starting out necessarily, however what is the cost of forming an LLC in such a state with all of the safeguards necessary to running an affiliate company this way? Does Amazon have any issues with this? How about the IRS?

Just asking, because I would hate to set all that up and end up in real trouble!

-DTM

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whynes

14 years ago

Originally Posted by David McKee

Not a viable solution for a new affiliate just starting out necessarily, however what is the cost of forming an LLC in such a state with all of the safeguards necessary to running an affiliate company this way? Does Amazon have any issues with this? How about the IRS?

Just asking, because I would hate to set all that up and end up in real trouble!

-DTM

I'm looking into it. First pass I found one to do it for approx
$500; including the Nev state fee. Haven't compared different
offerings yet.

Google: form llc in nevada

you'll get lots of hits.

Originally Posted by amanijl

How many states has this happened in? Any word that it'll be coming to Wisconsin as well???

Residents of California, Colorado, Connecticut, Illinois, North Carolina, Rhode Island, and counting.

Thank God we don't get all the government we pay for.

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SteveDolan

14 years ago

Originally Posted by whynes

I'm looking into it. First pass I found one to do it for approx
$500; including the Nev state fee. Haven't compared different
offerings yet.

Google: form llc in nevada

you'll get lots of hits.

Residents of California, Colorado, Connecticut, Illinois, North Carolina, Rhode Island, and counting.

Thank God we don't get all the government we pay for.

For each out of state LLC you form you will be required to pay CA $800 per year to the state board of equalization.

And the nexus tax laws is for all affiliate programs (where the company grosses over 10k per year - basically all of them) not just Amazon. Given the complexity of the laws, the internet and what forms a nexus even Adwords/Adsense may not be exempt.

Interesting article here:

Amazon Drops California In Growing E-Commerce Affiliate Tax Law War | ZDNet

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Sid Kaplan 14 years ago

I find it interesting that the big box retailers (specifically Wal-Mart) whine and complain of unfair advantage (Amazon) to get these laws passed when all along their buying practices off shore and pricing practices cost untold numbers of jobs in America.:confused:

But then again I would make a poor politician
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SeoVancouverWa

14 years ago

One point and a couple of questions:

I think some of you are missing the point on potential Amazon income, especially around the holidays, more specifically the Christmas season. Income can be AMAZING with Amazon.

So for those of you not making much with Amazon...you need to understand that many ARE...and the incomes might shock you.

Now for the question...why would Amazon NOT decide to just collect the sales tax and pass it on to the state? How does that hurt Amazon. They do not get to keep the sales tax. They would be competing with offline retailers that also have to charges sales tax.

So I am a bit confused about this. So what if they have to collect sales tax! That tax is NOT on Amazon...it is on the consumer buying the product. Can someone explain this better!!

Thanks
2 replies

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kindsvater

14 years ago

Originally Posted by SeoVancouverWa

Now for the question...why would Amazon NOT decide to just collect the sales tax and pass it on to the state? How does that hurt Amazon. They do not get to keep the sales tax. They would be competing with offline retailers that also have to charges sales tax.

So I am a bit confused about this. So what if they have to collect sales tax! That tax is NOT on Amazon...it is on the consumer buying the product. Can someone explain this better!!

Jack has a shoe store in San Francisco selling Nike shoes for $100. The total price paid by a customer is about $109 after including sales taxes. Jack remits the $9 sales tax to the CA Board of Equalization.

Amazon sells the same Nike shoes for $100. The total price paid by the customer is $100 because no sales taxes are owed.

The customer saves $9 by using Amazon and is happy.
Amazon is happy because it made a sale.
Jack is not happy because he lost a sale because he charges sales tax.
California is not happy because it did not collect $9.

.

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Steve Faber

14 years ago

Originally Posted by kindsvater

Jack has a shoe store in San Francisco selling Nike shoes for $100. The total price paid by a customer is about $109 after including sales taxes. Jack remits the $9 sales tax to the CA Board of Equalization.

Amazon sells the same Nike shoes for $100. The total price paid by the customer is $100 because no sales taxes are owed.

The customer saves $9 by using Amazon and is happy.
Amazon is happy because it made a sale.
Jack is not happy because he lost a sale because he charges sales tax.
California is not happy because it did not collect $9.

.

Jill lives in California and owns an online business that uses the Amazon associates program to generate revenue. She sells a pair of Nike shoes on Amazon through her site. She makes the 6% Amazon commission and the $6 in revenue goes to her business's bottom line. She pays income taxes on the $6 and spends the money in California.

Govorner Brown signs the law. Now Jill sells nothing through Amazon, she generates no business revenue, and pays no business or personal taxes on it. In addition, that money is not spent in the state to help the California economy.

Typical!

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remodeler

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Steve Faber

Jill lives in California and owns an online business that uses the Amazon associates program to generate revenue. She sells a pair of Nike shoes on Amazon through her site. She makes the 6% Amazon commission and the $6 in revenue goes to her business's bottom line. She pays income taxes on the $6 and spends the money in California.

Govorner Brown signs the law. Now Jill sells nothing through Amazon, she generates no business revenue, and pays no business or personal taxes on it. In addition, that money is not spent in the state to help the California economy.

Typical!

And in addition, because Jill's Amazon income was her livelihood and now it is gone, she may be applying for state aid. So now is she not only making an income and paying in CA tax revenue... but Jill is now drawing state aid and further costing the state more dollars. Yea, that makes really good sense.

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SeoVancouverWa

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Steve Faber

Jill lives in California and owns an online business that uses the Amazon associates program to generate revenue. She sells a pair of Nike shoes on Amazon through her site. She makes the 6% Amazon commission and the $6 in revenue goes to her business's bottom line. She pays income taxes on the $6 and spends the money in California.

Govorner Brown signs the law. Now Jill sells nothing through Amazon, she generates no business revenue, and pays no business or personal taxes on it. In addition, that money is not spent in the state to help the California economy.

Typical!

Listen I am an Amazon affiliate (in the GREAT State of Washington) but Amazon is wrong here. All they have to do is charge the tax, the same thing that any store in California has to do!

They do not want to do that because they think it will hurt their sales. They cannot save the customer of California $9. But they should NOT have that advantage over stores in California.

NONE of you that own a shoe store in California, that MUST charge that tax, would be happy knowing that a major competitor of yours DOESN'T have to charge the tax. Do you really think that is a fair or even close to fair? Of course not!

The real a-hole here is Amazon! All they have to do is do what EVERY other retailer in California has to do....CHARGE the tax, pay the collected tax to California, collect their profits and move onto the next sale. But they do not want to do that.

Now who do you think the REAL bad guy is? While Gov. Brown might not have looked at how stubborn Amazon is...he did the right thing. How can you allow a "store" to openly sell products in your state and NOT charge tax when EVERY other store in the state has to?

Come on people...think about it. You need to get on Amazon's A$$.

Thanks
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Sonomacats 14 years ago

Originally Posted by SeoVancouverWa

Come on people...think about it. You need to get on Amazon's A$$.

That's all very well and good, but what are we supposed to do for income in the mean time?

At least "moving" to a different state speaks a heck of a lot louder than a letter or phone call will do. And you get to keep your income until things get worked out.

I'm all for a national, across the board, sales tax so that it's fair for everyone.

But I'm not into ditching my income and going back to a JOB until things get fixed. Not to mention losing all the time, energy, and money I've spent getting to this point.

From now on, I am no longer a California resident. At least according to the address I have on file with Amazon and my affiliate networks.

And I'm willing to bet that a lot of people and companies are going to ditch California for real after this. Voting with your feet (whether real or literal) sends a strong message.

It would have been a lot smarter if the California had lobbied for a national sales tax instead of penalizing thousands of small businesses for working hard.
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Daniel Brock

14 years ago

Originally Posted by SeoVancouverWa

Listen I am an Amazon affiliate (in the GREAT State of Washington) but Amazon is wrong here. All they have to do is charge the tax, the same thing that any store in California has to do!

They do not want to do that because they think it will hurt their sales. They cannot save the customer of California $9. But they should NOT have that advantage over stores in California.

NONE of you that own a shoe store in California, that MUST charge that tax, would be happy knowing that a major competitor of yours DOESN'T have to charge the tax. Do you really think that is a fair or even close to fair? Of course not!

The real a-hole here is Amazon! All they have to do is do what EVERY other retailer in California has to do....CHARGE the tax, pay the collected tax to California, collect their profits and move onto the next sale. But they do not want to do that.

Now who do you think the REAL bad guy is? While Gov. Brown might not have looked at how stubborn Amazon is...he did the right thing. How can you allow a "store" to openly sell products in your state and NOT charge tax when EVERY other store in the state has to?

Come on people...think about it. You need to get on Amazon's A$$.

Shipping ain't free buddy.

They are forced to sell products at the same price as local stores, but they now also have to eat a shipping cost which will of course be passed on to the customer.

It'll be more expensive to shop online than locally, AND you'll have to wait a few days for the product to arrive.

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Daniel Brock

14 years ago

I hate to break it to everyone but it's only a matter of time before the US govey eliminates most online business opportunities.

They want people locked into their grid with no way of breaking out, and this "online thing" is one of the few remaining opportunities to do just that.

Soon visa/mastercard/paypal will start cracking down. Email providers will follow.

And these absurd tax laws lead the way.

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Page-One

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Daniel Brock

I hate to break it to everyone but it's only a matter of time before the US govey eliminates most online business opportunities.

They want people locked into their grid with no way of breaking out, and this "online thing" is one of the few remaining opportunities to do just that.

Soon visa/mastercard/paypal will start cracking down. Email providers will follow.

And these absurd tax laws lead the way.

As a major Amazon guy, Dan, you aren't sounding very optimistic...and maybe you're not. But if you have any thoughts on Amazon alternatives, I for one would be interested. Clickbank? CPA? Adsense? Other retailer affiliates? Online/Offline? Facebook? Kindle ebooks?

Remove Amazon from the picture, and I.M. options aren't gone, but it does leave a big hole!

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Chris Sorrell

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Page-One

As a major Amazon guy, Dan, you aren't sounding very optimistic...and maybe you're not. But if you have any thoughts on Amazon alternatives, I for one would be interested. Clickbank? CPA? Adsense? Other retailer affiliates? Online/Offline? Facebook? Kindle ebooks?

Remove Amazon from the picture, and I.M. options aren't gone, but it does leave a big hole!

You can just use the Amazon functionality inbuilt into squidoo lenses to bypass it all and continue promoting Amazon products till your heart's content. By doing that you'll get paid through Squidoo directly into your paypal account.

The whole setup is easier in general than playing about with wp sites and the like, and of course, no worries over certain states passing those ludicrous laws.

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txdalgal

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Chris Sorrell

You can just use the Amazon functionality inbuilt into squidoo lenses to bypass it all and continue promoting Amazon products till your heart's content. By doing that you'll get paid through Squidoo directly into your paypal account.

The whole setup is easier in general than playing about with wp sites and the like, and of course, no worries over certain states passing those ludicrous laws.

Don't you still need your Amazon affiliate code in your product link even in Squidoo?

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Chris Sorrell

14 years ago

Originally Posted by txdalgal

Don't you still need your Amazon affiliate code in your product link even in Squidoo?

Nope, just get the amazon ASIN, copy it into the amazon module and you're good to go. You then just get paid every month into your paypal account by squidoo. No amazon associates account needed.

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dunkinbbb

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Chris Sorrell

Nope, just get the amazon ASIN, copy it into the amazon module and you're good to go. You then just get paid every month into your paypal account by squidoo. No amazon associates account needed.

Hi Chris:

New at this and in CA.

Could you say ,ore about how this might work in practice? Any downsides?

Thanks

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Alan Petersen 14 years ago

Well this thread as gone to political hell. Now it will probably be zapped since it violates the no political/religious discussions which are very annoying indeed. How hard is it to keep on topic without getting nauseating political?
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newimguy

14 years ago

Originally Posted by SeoVancouverWa

Listen I am an Amazon affiliate (in the GREAT State of Washington) but Amazon is wrong here. All they have to do is charge the tax, the same thing that any store in California has to do!

They do not want to do that because they think it will hurt their sales. They cannot save the customer of California $9. But they should NOT have that advantage over stores in California.

NONE of you that own a shoe store in California, that MUST charge that tax, would be happy knowing that a major competitor of yours DOESN'T have to charge the tax. Do you really think that is a fair or even close to fair? Of course not!

The real a-hole here is Amazon! All they have to do is do what EVERY other retailer in California has to do....CHARGE the tax, pay the collected tax to California, collect their profits and move onto the next sale. But they do not want to do that.

Now who do you think the REAL bad guy is? While Gov. Brown might not have looked at how stubborn Amazon is...he did the right thing. How can you allow a "store" to openly sell products in your state and NOT charge tax when EVERY other store in the state has to?

Come on people...think about it. You need to get on Amazon's A$$.

I think this argument that Amazon is getting a price advantage is all balooney. Wal Mart, Target, Home Depot have an advantage over Amazon. You can pick it up at the store right away and you get to see the product. If you think Amazon has to collect tax, then to make it "equal" we should have to wait a week before we can pick up an item in the store.

Amazon is doing everything right according to the law. Whether you think its fair or not: The 1992 Supreme courts's decision held that mail-order merchants do not need to collect sales taxes for sales into states where they don't have a physical presence. If it's not fair then this decision needs to be overturned at a federal level not a state level.

Politiians who can't manage their states are trying to find a way to subvert the law by arguing that affiliates are a physical presence.I doubt this will hold up in federal court.

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whynes

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Sysbase

If I open an LLC in another state and just had my Amazon account closed can I just switch my address information to my new LLC and ask to be included again? Or do I have to start a whole new account with them?

I'm just off the phone with amazon (Associate Direct Line: 1-800-372-8066, 7AM-4PM Pacific Time), asking about switching my account from a person in california to an LLC in Nevada.

I couldn't really get any more specific confirmation than what was included in the termination letter in terms of a direct answer. It's almost as if she was reading from a script.

However, one thing specific was she said I might be required to prove
that "I had moved my residence," which was an odd answer to a question about changing my account holder to an LLC.

I kept asking the question a different way. Once she replied, "well, you
could always open up a different account."

While she never exactly said it, I got the distinct impression my current
account with them is 'tainted', marked for special treatment, if you get my meaning.

I might still go with an out-of-state LLC, but without something firm from Amazon, I'm going to go to whatever lengths I can to make sure there's
no association between that LLC and my old account. Not even my
domain name.

Too bad, too. My bank routing number happens to already show a reno
address, but I guess I won't be able to use that on my new LLC account.

In any case, since Amazon was my first try at AM, the LLC could come
in handy with other AM programs. No way I'm signing up for one with my CA address.

Question: Does anyone know how LLC income earned in Nevada, spent by me in California
is reported on my state taxes? Is it reported as IM earnings? Or is it reported as a salary
draw from a Nevada corporation? Any advice or pointers on this appreciated.

Thanks

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SeoVancouverWa

14 years ago

Originally Posted by kindsvater

Jack has a shoe store in San Francisco selling Nike shoes for $100. The total price paid by a customer is about $109 after including sales taxes. Jack remits the $9 sales tax to the CA Board of Equalization.

Amazon sells the same Nike shoes for $100. The total price paid by the customer is $100 because no sales taxes are owed.

The customer saves $9 by using Amazon and is happy.
Amazon is happy because it made a sale.
Jack is not happy because he lost a sale because he charges sales tax.
California is not happy because it did not collect $9.

.

That is EXACTLY what I am talking about. Why wouldn't Amazon just agree to tax this, pay the state of California the tax, and move on? They make the same profit!!! And they have no unfair competitive advantage.

Amazon is trying to get EVERYTHING their way! Just charge the tax and pay the sales tax to California! But you know why they will not do that? It is obvious now...because they do not have the monetary advantage over the physical stores in California.

So while California might have made a mistake in the end run...Amazon is also at fault here. They simply want to make sales in states that have a sales tax, but they do not want their customers to pay that tax so they have an advantage. That is not fair to any store physically in California!

Amazon needs to wake up and stop throwing temper tantrums...they are LOSING more doing this than gaining!!!! Is anyone to tell me that no sales from 10,000 affiliates won't hurt them. All they need to do is charge the tax and turn that tax over to California.

Come on Amazon! You say you want to protect your affiliates but you dump them on their A$$es because you don't get everything YOUR way! Shame on you.

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GlobalTrader

14 years ago

Originally Posted by SeoVancouverWa

Now for the question...why would Amazon NOT decide to just collect the sales tax and pass it on to the state? How does that hurt Amazon. They do not get to keep the sales tax. They would be competing with offline retailers that also have to charges sales tax.

So I am a bit confused about this. So what if they have to collect sales tax! That tax is NOT on Amazon...it is on the consumer buying the product. Can someone explain this better!!

I found the following paragraph in an article I read earlier today and after reading your question I thought it would help answer "why" Amazon is standing up to the politicos:

"The U.S. Supreme Court in 1992 ruled that states cannot tax businesses that aren't physically within their boundaries. Such taxes would regulate interstate commerce, which is a federal government prerogative."

I also read somewhere several years ago about how there are over 90,000 taxing authorities within the USA - now consider for a moment that if Amazon or other online companies allow the politicos to roll over their businesses, every little podunk taxing authority will see them as the golden goose and will ultimately kill them as the old saying goes.

Here in PA we have a state sales tax and Philidelphia has their own sales tax that is on top of PA's, now consider all of the other 50 states and cities and other podunkvilles that decide to get their greedy little hands on Internet sales overall (not just Amazon is as stake here but all of Internet marketing) - can you imagine the nightmare accounting, reporting etc. that could conceivably go along with the collection of each podunk's vision of "fairness" tax.

I like how the politicos like to label bills like this with the word "fairness" to gain the favor of the masses but in reality it is the California consumers who ultimately pay the price.

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bengirwb 14 years ago

"How about the IRS?"

The IRS doesn't care if you operate as an individual or a corp. or an llc.

The IRS doesn't care if you have a mailing address in another state.

The IRS wants you to pay your federal taxes. Your tax return is linked to your SS #, not your address.
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Eyetrap 14 years ago

Guys, this is not a big deal...it happened to me here in Arkansas.

Here is all you need to do (and what I did):

1) register a dba in another state ( $15 for me)
2) get a physical address in that state (po box does not work, I used my dads house)
3) get a bank account in that state

No need for an llc guys.

All I did was update my information in my amazon and cj.com accounts and I have not had any issues.

PS: all the states that shut down amazon affiliates are democraps.
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cindyw 14 years ago

Ca. is the only state in the US that has the weirdest laws. If you live in CA, you have to file a 800.00 fee to open a Delaware or Nev. corp or LLC. Any other state there is no fee. So...bottom line...crunch the numbers and if Amazon makes enough $$ for you (including Xmas) then go for it. Otherwise, um...move to another state or find another company to be an affiliate for. I can get a corp set up for about 200 bucks...but then the 800.00 will end up being about a grand to set it all up. Is it worth it? hum... This is the only way to do it. Don't mess with the CA. state tax laws. You will end up very broke or in jail!

If ebay partner network does this, guess I will move to um....well I hear Hawaii is nice most of the year?

Cindy
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sydneypm

14 years ago

Originally Posted by David McKee

Not a viable solution for a new affiliate just starting out necessarily, however what is the cost of forming an LLC in such a state with all of the safeguards necessary to running an affiliate company this way? Does Amazon have any issues with this? How about the IRS?

Just asking, because I would hate to set all that up and end up in real trouble!

-DTM

Individuals and large businesses alike have been legally forming corporations and LLC's in Nevada and Delaware for decades. The best way is to have an attorney or accountant set it up for you and get a virtual office. The cost may be around $1,000, but this is a normal part of a business set-up fee for those who prefer to do business out-of-state. Also, search online about Nevada and Delaware LLC's and you'll get quite a bit of info.

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MatthewNeer 14 years ago

Originally Posted by jakdwak

Sad that the voters didn't vote Meg Whitman, CEO of Ebay, into office. What a different future Cali would have. Sad.

I second that motion. Would have been nice to have some business savvy up there in Sac Town eh?
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idk007

14 years ago

gotta get my site up sooner and try to make as much as possible before then =P

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BloggingPro

14 years ago

Originally Posted by idk007

gotta get my site up sooner and try to make as much as possible before then =P

Bad idea. Simply use a different mailing address and have the money dumped into a bank account in another state. It's been working for me for the last year.

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redstanford

14 years ago

i got the notice as well. what i had planned to do since i 1st got wind of this storm approaching was to find other affiliate programs in my niche (for example: bass pro shops, sports authority, sports chalet) and just re-route all my affiliate links to them. i don't see why this has to kill anyone's business. just adapt and overcome-or go back to working your day job until retirement. i think too many lemmings are taking to the cliffs over this.

on a side note, is switching your mailing addresses and such even legal and will the IRS be like WTF come tax time?

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SteveDolan

14 years ago

Originally Posted by redstanford

i got the notice as well. what i had planned to do since i 1st got wind of this storm approaching was to find other affiliate programs in my niche (for example: bass pro shops, sports authority, sports chalet) and just re-route all my affiliate links to them. i don't see why this has to kill anyone's business. just adapt and overcome-or go back to working your day job until retirement. i think too many lemmings are taking to the cliffs over this.

The Nexus laws don't just affect Amazon - they affect ALL online retailers. So those that choose not to collect the sales tax via their affiliates will just terminate their contracts. So I wouldn't put a lot of effort into moving to other affiliate programs - especially large ones as these will in all likely hood be closing in CA too.

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Kal Sallam 14 years ago

Originally Posted by BloggingPro

Bad idea. Simply use a different mailing address and have the money dumped into a bank account in another state. It's been working for me for the last year.

so do you get paid via direct deposit ? cuz if not how are you going to receive your mails from that other state..can it be forwarded back to you..Thx bro.
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- Sonomacats 14 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Kal Sallam
  
  so do you get paid via direct deposit ? cuz if not how are you going to receive your mails from that other state..can it be forwarded back to you..Thx bro.
  
  You can get paid via direct deposit or by mail. If you opt to get your checks by mail, they will be sent to the address you have on file with Amazon.
  
  Whether you're using a friend's address or a private mailbox, the mail should be forwarded to you wherever you choose.
  
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ladywriter

14 years ago

Is there any reason to believe this won't eventually happen in ALL states (except Nevada, Delaware, etc.)?

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Candela 14 years ago

Originally Posted by kstark

Is there any reason to believe this won't eventually happen in ALL states (except Nevada, Delaware, etc.)?

I was wondering the same thing,this is another reminder to keep those eggs in various baskets!
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Jamie Charles

14 years ago

California will be the first, but more and more states will follow to "protect small businesses".

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gorufus

14 years ago

Maybe everyone should move to Arizona. We're pretty friendly here.

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The Lurker 14 years ago

Make no mistake, this law will pass. Too much big box and lobby money at stake for it not to.

Originally Posted by gorufus

Maybe everyone should move to Arizona. We're pretty friendly here.

Well, except for some of your legislators towards your illegal immigrants...

(jk - not really)

----

Be careful if you try to just change your address / bank to keep your Associates account and remain in Cali. I used to live in Asia as an American Expat and they cancelled my US account because they noticed (and track) what country (and area of) you login or try to register from. I explained all this over the phone and they still wouldn't reinstate 'em.... sucks!

You may find yourself having to go through US-based Proxy services located in the state you're supposedly from, whenever logging in or working with their affiliate tools, if you don't want to raise any red flags.

Good luck Cali residents,

-TL
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loopchange

14 years ago

incredibly brutal!

reminds me of the internet poker sites being shut down in April - and the resulting 'job losses'

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Emoney 14 years ago

I wonder if you can still make money on the Squidoo widgets on squidoo?

Or will this shut down that program too?
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- bengirwb 14 years ago
  
  ". . . is switching your mailing addresses and such even legal and will the IRS be like WTF come tax time?"
  
  The IRS doesn't care about your mailing address. It just wants you file tax returns, which are tied to you SS #
  
  Thanks
  
  1 reply
  
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  bengirwb 14 years ago
  
  OK, I'm confused (this happens a lot lately).
  
  Amazon sells the Adsense ads.
  
  Amazon sells my books on the Kindle.
  
  Yet Amazon wants to shut down the Adsense accounts. Why not the Kindle books, too?
  
  Glad the Kindle books are OK, but curious about why shut down one, but not the other.
  
  Thanks
  
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Dave90210

14 years ago

I just got a letter myself. I feel sorry for people who make substantial money from Amazon who live in California and I'm assuming there's allot.

I wouldn't suggest anyone put a wrong address or a different state in there Amazon company address profiles. I wouldn't doubt the US Gov or the state of California might prosecute anyone doing so and may result in legal problems if not possible jail time

Instead of promoting other peoples products build and promote your own that's what I started doing and I've been making allot more sales!

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BJ Min

14 years ago

i wonder if clickbank would do this too?

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kindsvater 14 years ago

Originally Posted by BJ Min

i wonder if clickbank would do this too?

No. The law only applies to "tangible personal property". The vast majority of ClickBank sales are intangible digital property.

A company has to sell $500,000 worth of tangible personal property to Californians within a year for the sales tax provisions to apply.

The target is Amazon and other huge online sellers. Not smaller online merchants.

.
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Ray Erdmann 14 years ago

I wonder what is going to happen to Amazon's overall business WHEN (NOT "IF") all the remaining states want to join in with California, Illinois and whatever other states Amazon has had to pull out of because of Govt. legislation and taxes being paid regarding online purchases, as I'm sure Amazon gets a LOT of their overall income from the 1,000's of affiliates in every state!

This will definitely be something to keep our eyes on over the coming months!
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- kindsvater 14 years ago
  
  The good news is less affiliate competition in the Amazon program.
  
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verneir 14 years ago

Originally Posted by BJ Min

i wonder if clickbank would do this too?

They are one of the only ones I've found (so far) who have said, and thus far carried-through, with NOT pulling the plug on states that are taxing online sales.

And, in my opinion, it'd be highly, highly stupid for Clickbank to do so (not to say that many large companies haven't made gigantic screw-ups in general). Their business model is not the same as Amazon.
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PPC-Coach

14 years ago

What I don't get is, how does this involve affiliates? Amazon has to collect a sales tax from CA residents now right? So why does that affect affiliates?

Seems like Amazon is using affiliates as an excuse here. Trying to pressure the State into seeing how much tax revenue they're going to lose and trying to get affiliates to put up a stink for them. Looks like affiliates are caught in the middle as being pawns by Amazon for no good reason. I could be wrong....LOL

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bengirwb 14 years ago

"Amazon has to collect a sales tax from CA residents now right? So why does that affect affiliates?"

I don't think big A collects CA tax because it doesn't have a CA physical presence. But CA affiliates reside in CA.
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- Kay King 14 years ago
  
  This almost happened in 2009 - and Gov Arnold vetoed it. It's been clear from then that if California imposed this tax, Amazon would pull out of Cali.
  
  Affiliates in California had more warning about consequences than in any other state where this has happened.
  
  Form an LLC or Incorporate in another state - or move. That's what those affiliates making real money through Amazon will do. Cali's loss - but you get what you deserve some times.
  
  Amazon has sent a clear message to states - and the results of imposing these taxes isn't yet apparent in state budgets.
  
  $0 in sales = $0 in taxes - but the legislators haven't figured that out yet.
  
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  dunkinbbb 14 years ago
  
  Somebody come up with a legal, practical and effective workaround.
  
  Now that would be a great WSO :-)
  
  Oh - and please don't tell me it involves Fiverr :-)
  
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  Kay King 14 years ago
  
  Now that would be a great WSO :-)
  
  So if I write out "incorporate your busines or form an LLC in another state" and sell that for $5 - does that make it somehow better advice?
  
  Probably be a best seller - until someone screamed "I could have gotten that info for free" Gee - ya think?
  
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  omurchu 14 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by dunkinbbb
  
  Somebody come up with a legal, practical and effective workaround.
  
  Now that would be a great WSO :-)
  
  Oh - and please don't tell me it involves Fiverr :-)
  
  Could you partner with someone outside the US and come to some arrangement re the profits?
  
  Frank
  
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sydneypm

14 years ago

Originally Posted by PPC-Coach

What I don't get is, how does this involve affiliates? Amazon has to collect a sales tax from CA residents now right? So why does that affect affiliates?

Seems like Amazon is using affiliates as an excuse here. Trying to pressure the State into seeing how much tax revenue they're going to lose and trying to get affiliates to put up a stink for them. Looks like affiliates are caught in the middle as being pawns by Amazon for no good reason. I could be wrong....LOL

I believe you are correct about using affiliates as pawns since all they have to do is add the sales tax on products bought through our links. But I don't think money is the only answer; Top brick & mortar retailers including Wal-Mart, Target, Best Buy, J.C. Penney, and Sears have formed The Alliance for Main Street Fairness "to push for more stringent tax laws on Internet retailers," so I'm guessing this may mean other affiliate programs may eventually become involved (but I hope not).

Does anyone know the exact name of the law in question?

Cindy P.

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dunkinbbb 14 years ago

I'm pretty sure ( not having read the original bill in legislature) that this applies to all "internet sales" in CA which are done thru entities with a physical presence in the state.

Its called the "Amazon" bill, since they are the highest profile company affected. Some affiliates - like Walmart - already have their own physical presence in the state so nothing changes for them. Others are in the same boat as Amazon - collect the taxes or risk being liable for them.

It also seems, like someone said, that Amazon is using the few states that have so far passed legislation as "warning shots" over the bow for the rest of the country.

I believe Texas cut a deal with Amazon, forestalling this tax for a number of years - in exchange for Amazon building a distribution facility in the state and creating jobs.

One would think that the CA pols could have been ast least as creative
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SteveDolan 14 years ago

Originally Posted by sydneypm

Does anyone know the exact name of the law in question?

Cindy P.

It's called the 'Nexus Tax' as in a company having a nexus presence in a particular state and then having to collect sales tax.
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gamingmaster42

14 years ago

Now that is pretty unfortunate. There's some obvious workarounds though.

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HeySal

14 years ago

I'm not even an Amazon affiliate and am glad to be getting out of this state soon. I'm thinking this won't be the only way that CA will go after affiliate Online money. If it's green, these dudes can smell it if it's on this side of their border. I would think anyone with any online business of any sort would want to get it off the CA maps.

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sydneypm

14 years ago

Originally Posted by HeySal

I'm not even an Amazon affiliate and am glad to be getting out of this state soon. I'm thinking this won't be the only way that CA will go after affiliate Online money. If it's green, these dudes can smell it if it's on this side of their border. I would think anyone with any online business of any sort would want to get it off the CA maps.

Unfortunately it is not only California looking for your money... it is more a political push from "The Alliance for Main Street Fairness," as stated in a prior thread. We all really should make our statements and views known to our Senators and Congressmen, no matter what political party you think you think is right. For those in CA check this out if you want to speak out the bills are as follows:

AB 155 written by Assemblyman Charles Calderon and here is the argument against it: California's Board of Equilization would administer AB 155, but states "the board would incur costs to administer this bill." The BOE says the online sales taxes wouldn't raise much revenue either -- particularly if affiliates and out-of-state retailers stop selling in California altogether, causing the loss of the existing sales tax revenue.

The BOE's position is that the revenue impact is subject to "considerable uncertainty." Changing the definition of a "retailer engaged in business in California may cause a delay of revenues because of anticipated litigation arising from enactment of this provision, and violation of the U.S. commerce clause."

AB 153, also called the nexus tax, was written by Democratic Assemblywoman Nancy Skinner which gives retailers presence or "nexus" in a state once affiliates of a state are use.

SB 234 by Dem Sen. Loni Hancock which enacts a "long arm" nexus.
Same argument applies to all.

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ShayB 14 years ago

I don't know if this helps, but SC recently passed legislation to give Amazon a break from nexus for the next 5 years:

Senate OKs compromise to bring online retailer to Midlands - Local / Metro - TheState.com

I am not a lawyer, yada yada yada....

Just saying it seems like SC should be free of affiliate termination for at least 5 years.

(Did I mention I'm not a lawyer?)

Hope this helps.
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dunkinbbb 14 years ago

I live in CA, but I'm no lawyer so please feel free to clean up my thinking.

If one choses to stay in the state, not only is one looking for a way to circumvent Amazon, but also the California State government with respect to collection of sales tax.

Its hard to see how an out of state mail drop would be effective without exposing one to serious legal reisk.

If I form a Nevada corporation, but operate out of my home (CA) - easy to detect via my ISP, ip address, and who knows what else - I am the one with a physical presence in CA who is not collecting sales tax - seems like the potential of not only Amazon's wrath, but the government of CA as well.
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OneManSEO

14 years ago

Originally Posted by sydneypm

Unfortunately it is not only California looking for your money... it is more a political push from "The Alliance for Main Street Fairness," as stated in a prior thread. We all really should make our statements and views known to our Senators and Congressmen, no matter what political party you think you think is right. For those in CA check this out if you want to speak out the bills are as follows:

AB 155 written by Assemblyman Charles Calderon and here is the argument against it: California's Board of Equilization would administer AB 155, but states "the board would incur costs to administer this bill." The BOE says the online sales taxes wouldn't raise much revenue either -- particularly if affiliates and out-of-state retailers stop selling in California altogether, causing the loss of the existing sales tax revenue.

The BOE's position is that the revenue impact is subject to "considerable uncertainty." Changing the definition of a "retailer engaged in business in California may cause a delay of revenues because of anticipated litigation arising from enactment of this provision, and violation of the U.S. commerce clause."

AB 153, also called the nexus tax, was written by Democratic Assemblywoman Nancy Skinner which gives retailers presence or "nexus" in a state once affiliates of a state are use.

SB 234 by Dem Sen. Loni Hancock which enacts a "long arm" nexus.
Same argument applies to all.

Okay, so how about the special exception given to Google?

In all fairness...

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Conjur

14 years ago

I just received my notice from Amazon as well. Nevada corporate registration here I come

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Ditso 14 years ago

What drugs are these decision makers on?

US politicians are deluding themselves if they think they can police the Internet like this.

Not content with messing around with online poker it's now poking it's nose into this.

Don't they remember prohibition? Some laws are just unworkable.
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davidjames42973

14 years ago

Yep. I got my termination email around lunch time. Looks like it's the sign of the times...

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webapex

14 years ago

Amazon will also have to divest of other California based companies they own.

I have to believe the threat to affiliates is in part done in hopes of getting 10,000 letters written to the Governor.

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Joel

14 years ago

It's on CNN.com Money now, not much details:
Amazon drops California associates to avoid sales tax - Jun. 29, 2011

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jan roos

14 years ago

I got the email as well and was told that I can stay on as an affiliate on a CPC system which I am not sure I want to do. Maybe I got offered that because I do high volume with them not sure.

This country is just bleeding more money and jobs out of here that it's truly sad as hell. I am out because these politicians and bankers won't stop at nothing!

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TBInternetMarketing

14 years ago

Originally Posted by jan roos

I got the email as well and was told that I can stay on as an affiliate on a CPC system which I am not sure I want to do. Maybe I got offered that because I do high volume with them not sure.

This country is just bleeding more money and jobs out of here that it's truly sad as hell. I am out because these politicians and bankers won't stop at nothing!

Cheers

Move back to SA Jan. Your dollars would go a damn long way down here

Or move to Perth like I'm doing next year

Hopefully the rest of the world won't have these issues with Amazon.

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OneManSEO

14 years ago

Originally Posted by webapex

Amazon will also have to divest of other California based companies they own.

I have to believe the threat to affiliates is in part done in hopes of getting 10,000 letters written to the Governor.

I wrote my nasty letter. He'll never see them. Our elected officials at the state and federal levels are damn near impossible to get past their "handlers" of ego-stroking yes men/women.

I've been pining to leave the state of my birth for a few years now...just one more ingredient to my Molotov cocktail of emotions. lol I love the wide open spaces of Idaho/Montana anyway...just hate to give up my expensive fiber optic ISP.

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sydneypm

14 years ago

Originally Posted by OneManSEO

I wrote my nasty letter. He'll never see them. Our elected officials at the state and federal levels are damn near impossible to get past their "handlers" of ego-stroking yes men/women.

I've been pining to leave the state of my birth for a few years now...just one more ingredient to my Molotov cocktail of emotions. lol I love the wide open spaces of Idaho/Montana anyway...just hate to give up my expensive fiber optic ISP.

I don't believe apathy is the answer... I and a handful of people helped change a law around 3 years ago in California by repeatedly calling and sending emails (no hand-written letters) to Gov. Arnold. One day an assistant from his office called me at home for details and said she was taking detailed notes for the next meeting. Months later, laws had been created and passed in favor of smaller business for what we were fighting for.

I would urge anyone to not run to another state but stand up for what you feel is right for our type of business in our home state.

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OneManSEO

14 years ago

Originally Posted by sydneypm

I don't believe apathy is the answer... I and a handful of people helped change a law around 3 years ago in California by repeatedly calling and sending emails (no hand-written letters) to Gov. Arnold. One day an assistant from his office called me at home for details and said she was taking detailed notes for the next meeting. Months later, laws had been created and passed in favor of smaller business for what we were fighting for.

I would urge anyone to not run to another state but stand up for what you feel is right for our type of business in our home state.

I get what you are saying, but this is just one more in a LONG list of grievances I have with those in power in my state. This is the final straw that broke this camel's back.

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awinkler

14 years ago

Originally Posted by sydneypm

I don't believe apathy is the answer... I and a handful of people helped change a law around 3 years ago in California by repeatedly calling and sending emails (no hand-written letters) to Gov. Arnold. One day an assistant from his office called me at home for details and said she was taking detailed notes for the next meeting. Months later, laws had been created and passed in favor of smaller business for what we were fighting for.

I would urge anyone to not run to another state but stand up for what you feel is right for our type of business in our home state.

I my opinion running away doesn't help a lot. Sometimes it is better stand for what you want and if necessary fight for it. It looks like because of not limiting spending in government they will slowly start every where with the same because it is easier to get more and more tax than cutting the spending.

I'm not talking only for the States that is almost everywhere in every country. It is easy to spend and get more money through tax until the whole country will be against it and pay nothing at all. Than they can fill up their jails with the ones they don't want to pay.

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SurfCityMediaGroup 14 years ago

I live in California, Jerry Brown sucks big turds! Now I am totally screwed out of hours and hours of investing and work into Amazon.com and trying to make a few bucks with their program. Guess I will sell of all of my sites!
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- whynes 14 years ago
  
  Just off the phone. Called an accountant and asked for pricing in setting up
  a Nevada LLC. I explained why, and he said that won't work. It doesn't matter if I live in California.
  
  I asked, is that something specific to California? He said, "yes."
  
  This is starting to suck more and more.
  
  UPDATE: Above info not very useful. That accountant might have been making
  some incorrect assumptions about why I'm trying to do this.
  
  Trying others, and will update with more info if I get it.
  
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  EvolBaby 14 years ago
  
  I knew this was coming for years and warned people not to put all their eggs in the Amazon basket.
  
  Not only Amazon but other companies are either sending out termination letters or not accepting any new affiliates.
  
  Today I got an email for an offer for an affiliate program I belong to. The person wanted to buy me out of my affiliate stake!
  
  I noticed it was a company that probably was going around asking other affiliates for their stakes so they could broker them.
  
  Anyway, California is a penal state. Do good and make a profit and you get penalized. It's all rigged so that you will fail in business if you don't fork over tons of cash and hire the dregs of society who can't or won't get smart.
  
  Now you have Amazon cutting off tens of thousands of companies in a snap.
  
  It's turning into a catastrophic situation out here in California. I mean SCARY.
  
  Here's why, the 20-30 thousand affiliates they just cut off aren't just one man operations. Many of them employ upwards of 10 to 50 other employees if not more. So let's say on average these affiliates had 5 employees each. that's 1.25 million people who've just lost their income. That's an assload of money just lost. Will these people be able to pay their mortgages, rents, health insurance?
  
  See the situation boiling out here? Companies are uprooting and moving out fast and some are selling off to friends and relatives in other states. The companies that had brick and mortar businesses have to literally pack up and move.
  
  The umpteen million websites, blogs, message boards, radio programs, podcasts that advertised the affiliate's Amazon products are now useless. Traffic is pouring in but t'ain't nothin' to sell. They either have to redesign all those websites, sell the sites for traffic, or just sell off whatever assets they can.
  
  I never relied on Amazon or Adsense or anything. Reason being as I've seen big affiliate programs crap out and leave people in misery.
  
  I'm glad I listened to Paulie 88 here on WF as well as several others and just took one step at a time building up my online biz. If I just boosted prices I could be in that six figure chill out with half the income coming in from auto pilot. Get a cool piece of real estate at rock bottom prices.
  
  So right now, the Amazon victims have to think on their feet and quick. It's a shame that California and the affiliate programs couldn't resolve their problems with a simple procedure that would have benefitted all. It would have had manufacturers and store owners online and brick and mortar going into discount wars.
  
  Well the you-know-what has hit the fan and now we'll have to see where it spreads.
  
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jonnieke 14 years ago

Local and Global online marketing trends are changing fast. Therefore we need to be as dynamic and watchful. What happened in California could as well happen elsewhere and in a different dimension. Keep watch.
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- fluffythewondercat 14 years ago
  
  My mother lives in Oregon still. I grew up there. You guys are giving me ideas.
  
  I wasn't an active affiliate before but I want to be one now just to stick it to Gov Moonbeam and his cronies.
  
  fLufF
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grannydude

14 years ago

First: What a bummer. I am/was just getting started as an Amazon Affiliate and I now live in California which I have to do. I used to live in Arizona and get pension money from there which I have to pay Arizona state income tax (also have to pay income tax to California and to the Feds for income received in both states). I used to have a bank account in Arizona, actually Bank of America, but the way they go is bank accounts seem to transfer from one state to another. Would anyone know if and how I could use this to sort of work from Arizona? I must say I am very upset by this. Maybe, hopefully, someone in this forum will come up with a workaround. Incidentally how do you set up a "residence account" in Nevada or any other state?

sad and very very upset

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Sonomacats

14 years ago

Originally Posted by grannydude

First: What a bummer. I am/was just getting started as an Amazon Affiliate and I now live in California which I have to do. I used to live in Arizona and get pension money from there which I have to pay Arizona state income tax (also have to pay income tax to California and to the Feds for income received in both states). I used to have a bank account in Arizona, actually Bank of America, but the way they go is bank accounts seem to transfer from one state to another. Would anyone know if and how I could use this to sort of work from Arizona? I must say I am very upset by this. Maybe, hopefully, someone in this forum will come up with a workaround. Incidentally how do you set up a "residence account" in Nevada or any other state?

sad and very very upset

I don't recommend Nevada right now as it is considering passing the nexus tax and you would have to "move" again if it does.

However, you could return your residence to Arizona. You're already paying income tax there. Amazon will give you a 1099 in January and it's up to you where you pay your tax.

If you don't have a friend who has an address in Arizona that you could use, then get a private mailbox from a place like Mail Boxes, Etc. Don't use MBE, however, because they're really expensive. There are plenty of other places that would work for you. All you have to do is go to Google and type in "private mailbox" Arizona, check out a few and then go with the one you like.

The nice thing about these places is that you get a real street address.

I believe there is a Postal Annex in Arizona and I know you can sign up with them online.

Once you have your new address, sign on to your Amazon account and update your information to show your Arizona address. Then click on "Operating Agreement" in the left nav bar.

At the end of Paragraph 2, you'll find a link to the Contact Associates Customer Service form.

Send them an eMail letting them know you are an Arizona resident and could they please reinstate you. Shouldn't take more than a day or so.

They will say something like you might have to prove you live in Arizona, but don't let that put you off. I've never gotten any such request any of the times I've changed my address.

You can also change your address officially by then getting your Arizona drivers license using the address you're using for Amazon, but only if it makes sense tax-wise. Check out the difference between filing as an Arizona resident and non-resident California return compared to filing as a California resident with a non-resident Arizona return.

As you already file an income tax return in Arizona, you can put your Amazon earnings on that return.

Or, you can find another state that doesn't have state income tax (other than Nevada), get a mailing address there, and then not having to deal with it at all.

Check out the state tax site I mentioned in a previous post to get ideas of where else you might want to have a residence.

The important thing is to not take this lying down. Don't let it stop you from earning Amazon income.

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grannydude

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Sonomacats

I don't recommend Nevada right now as it is considering passing the nexus tax and you would have to "move" again if it does.

However, you could return your residence to Arizona. You're already paying income tax there. Amazon will give you a 1099 in January and it's up to you where you pay your tax.

If you don't have a friend who has an address in Arizona that you could use, then get a private mailbox from a place like Mail Boxes, Etc. Don't use MBE, however, because they're really expensive. There are plenty of other places that would work for you. All you have to do is go to Google and type in "private mailbox" Arizona, check out a few and then go with the one you like.

The nice thing about these places is that you get a real street address.

I believe there is a Postal Annex in Arizona and I know you can sign up with them online.

Once you have your new address, sign on to your Amazon account and update your information to show your Arizona address. Then click on "Operating Agreement" in the left nav bar.

At the end of Paragraph 2, you'll find a link to the Contact Associates Customer Service form.

Send them an eMail letting them know you are an Arizona resident and could they please reinstate you. Shouldn't take more than a day or so.

They will say something like you might have to prove you live in Arizona, but don't let that put you off. I've never gotten any such request any of the times I've changed my address.

You can also change your address officially by then getting your Arizona drivers license using the address you're using for Amazon, but only if it makes sense tax-wise. Check out the difference between filing as an Arizona resident and non-resident California return compared to filing as a California resident with a non-resident Arizona return.

As you already file an income tax return in Arizona, you can put your Amazon earnings on that return.

Or, you can find another state that doesn't have state income tax (other than Nevada), get a mailing address there, and then not having to deal with it at all.

Check out the state tax site I mentioned in a previous post to get ideas of where else you might want to have a residence.

The important thing is to not take this lying down. Don't let it stop you from earning Amazon income.

Thanks very much, Sonomacat. It is a good idea, but it may be too complicated. I already file taxes as a non-resident in Arizona and a resident in California. This is the way by which I don't get taxed twice for two states. Getting driver's license changed to Arizona would be difficult; as for now, I have banned myself from driving for physical reasons. Thanks for encouragement tho. I think I'll try skimlinks.
This has been a very interesting and informative. thread. Thanks to everyone for contributing.
grannydude

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Ben Holmes

14 years ago

Skimlinks might work - but I'm not going to bet on it. (Hint: Go to the site, and click on their 'Contact' link)

As a Californian, I'm simply going to have to find another solution (But I've applied to Skimlinks on the off chance that they'll be able to work)

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CopyAcolyte

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Khadaji

Skimlinks might work - but I'm not going to bet on it. (Hint: Go to the site, and click on their 'Contact' link)

As a Californian, I'm simply going to have to find another solution (But I've applied to Skimlinks on the off chance that they'll be able to work)

What makes you doubt Skimlinks?

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whynes

14 years ago

Originally Posted by CopyAcolyte

What makes you doubt Skimlinks?

I think he's referring to the office in San Francisco that shows on the
contact page.

They have an office in London, but that does raise some interesting
questions. Assuming they're now going to shut down the SF office,
the link hops to London might be painfully slow, going there from
here, and hopping back to amazon, before they show up on your
site.

Or possibly--it would probably take a law degree to figure out--they
can actually keep the SF office open. If they aren't serving up
any ads for Amazon, and they aren't shipping any products, can it
be possible they fall through the cracks of the nexus laws? Hmmmm.
The nexus laws wouldn't seem to apply to them, so why close it
down?

You can call our legis-critters in Sacramento a lot of things, but
"tech-savy" is probably not one of them.

Guess I'll find out pretty soon.

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whynes 14 years ago

I'm sure this is probably old news to you old-time IMers,
but this is a real eye-popper for us newbies.

If you were planning on seeing a scary movie tonight, I think
I can save you some money. Here's the BOE analysis of the
legislation in question:

All Legislative Analyses 2011-2012 Session - California State Board of Equalization

SUT: Retailers Engaged in Business
SUT: Nexus; Out of State Retailers Information Reporting

I'll warn you, you'll get a headache if you try to read this
stuff. Also, it is just plain frightening.

The cute little term "Nexus" really belies the sense of dread
you feel when you read it. It should really be nicknamed the
EEE laws: Everyone, Everything, Everywhere. My God.
It really reads like an all out effort, no holds barred, attempt
to turn everyone in the USA into a tax collector for California.
Just everyone.

Whether all of this made it into the bill that was signed, I don't
know. Just the fact that powerful people are having these
discussions with grimly serious intent is just frightening.

Just for historical perspective, you'll learn that in 1994 they
tried to claim a nexus existed for an out-of-state company
because they used the US postal service to deliver mail into
the state. I knew an attempt to tax mail order outfits
failed, but it never occurred to me that any sane person
would use that as their argument to try it; E.g., "You
are present in this state because you use the post office."

Huh?

Others have posted that the law is vague and ambiguous.
It may well be. But there is nothing vague and ambiguous
at all about what they are seriously trying to do. EEE.

If this is what's sweeping the nation, we will all be
uncompensated tax collectors for 50 different states.

Stop worrying about the destruction of the internet,
and start worrying about where you're going to find
the time to do your federal tax return. You'll long for
the days when you only had to do taxes once a year.

After reading this (or as much as I could stand for tonight)
I'm not holding out much hope for those poor folks that
(used to?) work at skimlink's SF office.

Read at your own risk. Or more properly, don't read at your
own risk. You might want to pop out for a fresh bottle of
Advil before you start.
- Thanks
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Ben Holmes 14 years ago

Originally Posted by whynes

I think he's referring to the office in San Francisco that shows on the contact page.

You guessed it. I'm thinking that I'll find out later this coming week whether it will work or not.
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microfac

14 years ago

Originally Posted by whynes

I think he's referring to the office in San Francisco that shows on the
contact page.

They have an office in London, but that does raise some interesting
questions. Assuming they're now going to shut down the SF office,
the link hops to London might be painfully slow, going there from
here, and hopping back to amazon, before they show up on your
site.

Or possibly--it would probably take a law degree to figure out--they
can actually keep the SF office open. If they aren't serving up
any ads for Amazon, and they aren't shipping any products, can it
be possible they fall through the cracks of the nexus laws? Hmmmm.
The nexus laws wouldn't seem to apply to them, so why close it
down?

You can call our legis-critters in Sacramento a lot of things, but
"tech-savy" is probably not one of them.

Guess I'll find out pretty soon.

Got accepted this morning, so apparently the San Francisco office isn't bothering Skimlinks. Also, discovered they have a Wordpress plugin that gets you back in business in seconds without the necessity of changing anything on your site. The plugin makes all the changes to your Amazon links on the fly.

From what I understand, if you're getting 6% from Amazon, Skimlinks gets 8%, so since you get 75% from Skimlinks, you're back at your original 6%. If you're now getting 8% from Amazon, then, of course, your down 25%, but 6% is one heck of lot better than nothing, especially when you don't have to do much of anything other than sign up to Skimlinks.

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whynes 14 years ago

Originally Posted by microfac

Got accepted this morning, so apparently the San Francisco office isn't bothering Skimlinks.

Indeed, I slept a little later today, but I got the same "welcome
back to independence" email from skimlinks too. The irony
of today's date, and the source of the email isn't lost on me.

It couldn't have been a more painless transition. And the performance
problem I feared is not noticeable, if it's there at all.

Only thing I can't seem to do is get it to work for my Amazon ads.
But hey, it's the deep links into Amazon that matter, right?

If I figure out the Amazon ads problem, I'll post back here.

Happy 4th of July everyone!

P.S. If you're not a US citizen, well . . . um . . . have a very
happy 4th of July anyway!
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Emoney 14 years ago

It looks like skimlinks has an office in San Francisco, could be problematic in the very near future.. anyone?
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- whynes 14 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Emoney
  
  It looks like skimlinks has an office in San Francisco, could be problematic in the very near future.. anyone?
  
  Seems not. My uneducated guess is they are incorporated in another state.
  If not, they would have almost certainly been terminated along with the rest
  of us. They'd be morons to incorporate in California--they'd be qualified for
  government office, if that were the case.
  
  Serves basically the same purpose as me doing that. Just saves me
  a couple hundred dollars a month in maintaining an out-of-state
  office, and the $800 'gotcha' fee per year California would charge
  me to do so.
  
  They don't ship any product, so it would seem California would need
  to pass yet another unconstitutional law to entrap them. I'm sure we're
  trying, but it should take another decade or so for us to figure it out.
  
  Amazon, by allowing us terminated folks to maintain access to link-building
  for historical purposes, has made it very easy for us to integrate with
  SkimLinks.
  
  Just connect the dots. It seems Amazon does care about us here in
  California, even if they can't advertise it. Actions speak louder than
  words.
  
  Not only that, SkimLinks has given me a button for my disclosure
  page. I never dreamed I could monetize an FTC regulation! Ha ha!
  
  Thanks
  
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unlimitedmarketing 14 years ago

So what happens if people in california want to buy something from amazon.com?
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- OneManSEO 14 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by unlimitedmarketing
  
  So what happens if people in california want to buy something from amazon.com?
  
  Nothing, the buyer is still responsible to report the taxes just like they always have. However, no one ever reports it so CA hates Amazon for "stealing" their sales taxes.
  
  Except, California has a law that people can't possibly abide by, which should render it unconstitutional. However, I doubt many in Sacramento respect the Constitution anymore than they do us constituents. I've tried to contact my reps at the state and federal level many times over the years - never once have I gotten a response.
  
  We're just not important.
  
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NetAffiliate 14 years ago

This make me glad I moved back to Alaska from California.

We do not even have a sales tax or state income tax here. :p

The downside...Cost of living is a little high, but nothing like Cali or NY.
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kindsvater

14 years ago

California Legislators are waking up this morning to this front page headline splashed across the top of the Sacramento Bee:

"Tax war hits the little guy"

with the subhead

"California Based Affiliates Face Revenue Cut As Amazon Drops Them"

article here:

California affiliates hurt by tax bill targeting Amazon.com - Sacramento Business, Housing Market News | Sacramento Bee

"the law is likely to generate little revenue. Instead ... it will inflict pain in an obscure but crucial corner of cyberspace: the world of affiliated marketers."

.

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tcraw1010

14 years ago

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John Hocking

14 years ago

This is a real shame.

They are effectively cutting the income of CA residents and driving away commerce.

Until such taxes are applied nationwide, they will drive business elsewhere.

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antfer

14 years ago

Originally Posted by John Hocking

This is a real shame.

They are effectively cutting the income of CA residents and driving away commerce.

Until such taxes are applied nationwide, they will drive business elsewhere.

Well, what I did was change the owner of the account to my trusted relative who lives in the Philippines. But the contact person listed is still me, same account, same affiliate links.

Amazon reinstated the account in one day.

Now of course, he has to file taxes there for the checks he will receive there.

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John Hocking

14 years ago

Originally Posted by antfer

Well, what I did was change the owner of the account to my trusted relative who lives in the Philippines. But the contact person listed is still me, same account, same affiliate links.

Amazon reinstated the account in one day.

Now of course, he has to file taxes there for the checks he will receive there.

That would be a "Trusted Relative".

I hope all goes well for you.

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akennedy

14 years ago

To anyone in the Sacramento region affected by this new tax law:
I am writing a story for a local Sacramento magazine about this new "Amazon Tax" and am looking for perspective from local Amazon affiliates/small business owners like you who may be hurting because of it. Would it be possible to connect with you via email so I can get your insights for my story?

Thanks,
Andrea

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antfer

14 years ago

Well now it's official!

California affiliates can have their accounts reinstated.

Gov. Brown repealed the sales tax law!

You should see a message in your Amazon control panel.

For more info:

Welcome back California Amazon affiliates!

:p

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Chri5123

14 years ago

Originally Posted by antfer

Well now it's official!

California affiliates can have their accounts reinstated.

Gov. Brown repealed the sales tax law!

You should see a message in your Amazon control panel.

For more info:

Welcome back California Amazon affiliates!

:p

Not sure if they have activated them all yet though?

Awesome news!

Chris

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Sonomacats 14 years ago

I suspect it will take a week or two before reinstatement happens.

HOWEVER, it looks like this may become an issue again in a year. So my recommendation would be to set up residency in Oregon (no sales tax) or another safe state in the mean time so that if this happens again, at least you won't be blindsided as we were this year and you'll already have a safe address by the time it happens again.

Just a reminder, you don't have to live where you have residency. Just look at the full-time RVers and snowbirds. They have residency in a state that works best for taxes and then live all over the place. This is not illegal.

It's called civil disobedience and it's a time-honored tradition in this country.

If you own your own home in California, set up an LLC in Wyoming and have it own your home. Then "rent" from it while keeping your residency elsewhere.

If you rent, then you're all set. Just change your official residency to another state, but continue to live here.

Or not.

Rents are a lot cheaper in Oregon than they are here and there's a mini Silicon Valley going on in the Portland area if you also want to work a JOB.

Now that you have time, put things in place so you won't get screwed when it happens again next year.
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SoundsGood 14 years ago

Originally Posted by antfer

Well now it's official!

California affiliates can have their accounts reinstated.

Is this for forever? Or only for the next year?

Or ???
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AnniePot

14 years ago

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mooble 14 years ago

Wait so did they already terminate all the CA affiliates or just warn that if it passes they will?
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- CarinN 14 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by mooble
  
  Wait so did they already terminate all the CA affiliates or just warn that if it passes they will?
  
  Brown officially signed the law today, so unfortunately yes, they have terminated the accounts.
  
  As a California resident myself I see this as lose lose for not just CA affiliates but California. Now that Amazon terminated our accounts, not only will CA not see the sales tax they thought they would get, they lose the income tax from the affiliates as well.
  
  No one side to blame though. On one hand Brown thinks he's doing what's right for California and small businesses although he's really hurt us. And on the other Amazon thinks they are doing what's right for their business by sticking to their principles, but at a high price to it's affiliates and obviously their pocket book since they won't be getting the sales from those affiliates anymore.
  
  Should be interesting to see how many other affiliate programs follow suit as a precautionary measure.
  
  I guess back to local marketing and working with pain in the butt clients I go.
  
  Thanks
  
  1 reply
  
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  dunkinbbb 14 years ago
  
  I'm relatively new here - so if this is off topic - just delete.
  
  I wonder if Amazon actually gets hurt much - if at all - by this.
  
  I'm of the impression that most Amazon affiliates try to impose themselves (their sites) between Amazon and the buyer - provide some "information" and get a referral fee for whatever the buyer buys if he/she clicks thru.
  
  If the person coming to the affiliate's site - unless its a high ranking "authority site" did not have a buying intention - they would never have clicked on the affiliate's url to begin with.
  
  Be interesting to know if Amazon's profit in affected states increases or decreases after the Nexus laws" take effect.
  
  Thanks
  
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Marc2008

14 years ago

Yeah, the great blue state of Maryland is looking at this dumb law now, too. It's ridiculous. Our Governor told our Comptroller to study how much money MD could be losing due to not taxes internet businesses like Amazon. They just dont get it. Nooo, dont cut spending, just find more productive people to tax. They are not going to get the money they want. Amazon will just drop Maryland affiliates and the state will lose income from those productive small business owners/affiliates. They dont care.

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PPC-Coach

14 years ago

So after reading a bit about this, the basic jist is that Amazon is throwing affiliates under the bus here just to get them mad and get them to put pressure on the gov't.

Politics at its best.

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Scott B

14 years ago

I recently moved from NC (where the legislature just passed the same law) down to SC (where the legislature promised NOT to pass the same law). Amazon has dumped affiliates in several other states (CO, NY, IL) for the same reason. For some reason, government never seems to be able to connect the dots that when they take people's money, those people will leave.

When a consumer makes an online purchase, the merchant is only required to collect sales tax if the consumer is located in the same state as the merchant. If the consumer is located in a different state (which is the case most of the time), he still owes the tax and is supposed to remember to pay tax on that purchase whenever he files his annual tax return. Shockingly, no one remembers...and honestly most people aren't even aware of this requirement. States see this revenue as money they are due and are missing out on. They're trying to claim that Amazon and other online retailers ARE located in their state and therefore required to collect the tax rather than relying on the consumer to "remember."

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beatlechan

14 years ago

This almost happened to Hawaii last year or two years ago. Amazon actually stopped the affiliate program for Hawaii residents before the bill got passed. Fortunately, the governor at the time vetoed the bill and after a few months, Amazon reinstated Hawaii residents.

But the proposal has come up again after our new governor took office so Hawaii maybe another state that gets sacked as well.

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Presto Smith

14 years ago

wow. just when I find an affiliate program that I can make work they go and cut us off at the feet. I guess I will try and change the address to a different state in hopes that I can stay on board.

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davidjames42973

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Presto Smith

wow. just when I find an affiliate program that I can make work they go and cut us off at the feet. I guess I will try and change the address to a different state in hopes that I can stay on board.

Try it out, but chances are that you have to show proof that you reside in the address you're changing it to.

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davidjames42973 14 years ago

Chances are that Overstock will fold too. Places like Ebay Partner Network and Clickbank have been working with others who have been affected by this stupid law.

Even though it sucks that Amazon is terminating accounts left and right, they are actually fighting for our rights as affiliates.
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Sid Kaplan

14 years ago

And this helps create jobs in California? I am not sure anyone wins in this except the legislators who will start getting paid again when the budget passes. California has a unique knack for giving self starters and productive people a reason to leave the state.

I guess one could always flip their Amazon sites to folks who reside in the "blessed" states for now.

Somebody shut the lights please if you are the last to leave :-)

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Maddmula

14 years ago

This SUCKS. I wonder if you can make a bank account in another state without actually being in that other state. Like I live in California, but it would great if I didn't have to drive to Nevada to open a bank account.

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Targeted Traffic

14 years ago

Better start thinking of states that doesn't have this law.
However, put up a good fight, say that you strongly oppose and that they will immensely hurt your business and business in the state in general and join a community for it.

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txconx

14 years ago

It's not just Amazon. I've had affiliate termination notices coming in all afternoon.

I don't make that much from Amazon so I figured no big deal. It's starting to become a big deal.

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1 reply

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CarinN

14 years ago

Originally Posted by txconx

It's not just Amazon. I've had affiliate termination notices coming in all afternoon.

I don't make that much from Amazon so I figured no big deal. It's starting to become a big deal.

Are these programs through Clickbank or other affiliate networks? Are they physical products or virtual products?

I do a lot of clickbank marketing and I haven't received any emails accept the one from Amazon.

I hope it doesn't spread too far.

Thanks

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timpears

14 years ago

Personally if I was making decent money with Amazon, I would invest in a virtual office out of state to continue my business. They are not all that much money. I wouldn't recommend this to someone starting out, as it takes time to generate income. But if you are pulling in a thousand or two, this expense would be a way to continue that.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&s...=g-v1&aql=&oq=
See, lots of them available.

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garyv

14 years ago

I'm waiting for the Affiliates' class action suit against Amazon. They terminated accounts here in Illinois a while back, of course I had only been making $30 - $50 per month at the time from Amazon, so I didn't bother with it. I didn't even bother with switching up my links. Then this last week, I decided to go in and switch the Address to my Aunt's house across the border in Wisconsin. And when I did they re-instated my account. And thus revealed to me that they were still making money from my links the entire time.

So could they actually be breaking the law? Because those are MY links on MY website, and they are making money from it. So they are actually still making money from my State. Or am I missing something here?

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doorkicker13

14 years ago

Originally Posted by garyv

I'm waiting for the Affiliates' class action suit against Amazon. They terminated accounts here in Illinois a while back, of course I had only been making $30 - $50 per month at the time from Amazon, so I didn't bother with it. I didn't even bother with switching up my links. Then this last week, I decided to go in and switch the Address to my Aunt's house across the border in Wisconsin. And when I did they re-instated my account. And thus revealed to me that they were still making money from my links the entire time.

So could they actually be breaking the law? Because those are MY links on MY website, and they are making money from it. So they are actually still making money from my State. Or am I missing something here?

I'm not sure that's how it works. Those are THEIR links on your site. I think this whole thing is a cloudy area, and one I'm not at all happy about. Anyhow, I'm with you.

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nohype 14 years ago

Just google: nexus tax and amazon.

Interesting stuff comes up.

Many consider this unconstitutional and a violation of law. Thoughts?
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timpears

14 years ago

Originally Posted by garyv

So could they actually be breaking the law? Because those are MY links on MY website, and they are making money from it. So they are actually still making money from my State. Or am I missing something here?

I don't believe they were as you were not an affiliate at the time. I am sure that they made a few sales to your traffic, but as you were not technically an affiliate at the time, no law broken.

They told everyone if they moved their address, they would be happy to reinstate them, from what I understood from reading these threads.

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doorkicker13

14 years ago

Looks like I'll be selling a few websites. I just got this e-mail too. I'm just waiting for them to try and take my guns...

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Clyde Dennis

14 years ago

I guess Texas can't be too far behind. We've got a big struggle going on concerning taxes and an Amazon distribution center in the Dallas area.

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Cee

14 years ago

This is very clever strategy by Amazon. This is a preemptive strike and is pretty much letting the lawmakers know that passing this bill won't do them any good so they might as well veto it.

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Kay King 14 years ago

It already passed - that's why Amazon took action.

Wonder how many legislators in other states are waking up and saying...

"hmmm, maybe that's not such a great idea":rolleyes:
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- troybh 14 years ago
  
  California sucks anyway everyone. No trees. Got crazy traffic. Crazy windmills all over the place. Every amazon affiliate in Cali should move here to washington state. No chance of getting shut down here that is for sure. Plus you get trees, lots and lots and lots of rain and hey angela edwards lives here so that should tell you something. Rains all the time so there is nothing else to do but sit on the computer doing im marketing.
  
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  Kay King 14 years ago
  
  Amazon may be winning the battle in some states with it's "impose a tax and we're out of here" actions.
  
  I just did some research to see if there were any results of the first state to add taxes that led Amazon to cancel affiliates - South Carolina (I think it was first, anyway).
  
  Seems SC has had a change of heart and that could be what happens in Texas, too, as Amazon has been negotiating there. I don't know if Amazon picks the states it feels are worth negotiating with or waits to see if a state is interested in re-visiting the affiliate tax issue.
  
  South Carolina passed an amendment that gives Amazon an exemption until 2016. I'm not a lawyer but seems like there are strings attached for affiliates but they may not be that bad.
  
  More legal info here about it - was just passed a couple weeks ago.
  
  Colorado and South Carolina’s Unique Positions on “Amazon” Laws – Martindale.com
  
  Just gets interestinger and interestinger.
  
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  nohype 14 years ago
  
  I've heard of several states suing right now.
  
  Thanks
  
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stephfoster

14 years ago

I got the letter too. Really hoping some of the lawsuits on this in other states get moving, because I'd like to see some precedent set. I'm pretty confident on the Commerce Clause knocking this one down, but something firm must be decided. It's hard on affiliates waiting to see what's going to happen next.

Thanks

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SerpSmasher

14 years ago

this sucks big time! the politicians don't care, were just cattle, well have to resort to crime soon to feed our bellys, then theyll throw us in there private jails, and well still be on the hamster wheel. working for the machine.

Thanks

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nohype

14 years ago

Originally Posted by MatthewNeer

Just got an email from Amazon guys, and this could be detrimental to anyone that lives in California who makes a living off of selling Amazon products.

Here is EXACTLY what the email said...

"Hello,

For well over a decade, the Amazon Associates Program has worked with thousands of California residents. Unfortunately, a potential new law that may be signed by Governor Brown compels us to terminate this program for California-based participants. It specifically imposes the collection of taxes from consumers on sales by online retailers - including but not limited to those referred by California-based marketing affiliates like you - even if those retailers have no physical presence in the state.

We oppose this bill because it is unconstitutional and counterproductive. It is supported by big-box retailers, most of which are based outside California, that seek to harm the affiliate advertising programs of their competitors. Similar legislation in other states has led to job and income losses, and little, if any, new tax revenue. We deeply regret that we must take this action.

As a result, we will terminate contracts with all California residents that are participants in the Amazon Associates Program as of the date (if any) that the California law becomes effective. We will send a follow-up notice to you confirming the termination date if the California law is enacted. In the event that the California law does not become effective before September 30, 2011, we withdraw this notice. As of the termination date, California residents will no longer receive advertising fees for sales referred to Amazon(dot)com, Endless(dot)com, MYHABIT(dot)COM or SmallParts(dot) com. Please be assured that all qualifying advertising fees earned on or before the termination date will be processed and paid in full in accordance with the regular payment schedule.

You are receiving this email because our records indicate that you are a resident of California. If you are not currently a resident of California, or if you are relocating to another state in the near future, you can manage the details of your Associates account here. And if you relocate to another state in the near future please contact us for reinstatement into the Amazon Associates Program.

To avoid confusion, we would like to clarify that this development will only impact our ability to offer the Associates Program to California residents and will not affect their ability to purchase from Amazon.com, Endless.com, MYHABIT.COM or SmallParts.com.

We have enjoyed working with you and other California-based participants in the Amazon Associates Program and, if this situation is rectified, would very much welcome the opportunity to re-open our Associates Program to California residents. We are also working on alternative ways to help California residents monetize their websites and we will be sure to contact you when these become available.

Regards,
The Amazon Associates Team"

Hope this shed some light on the recent conversations going on throughout this forum and exactly what Amazon is planning on doing once this law is passed.

We all wish that it does not pass, but hey, thats politics...

Your thoughts?

Nope. Its OFFICIAL now guys. I live in California. Have made some money with Amazon over the last 9 yrs. Now I am completely cutoff! How idiotic! Here's the letter I received right after the previously mentioned one above:
-----------
Hello,
Unfortunately, Governor Brown has signed into law the bill that we emailed you about earlier today. As a result of this, contracts with all California residents participating in the Amazon Associates Program are terminated effective today, June 29, 2011. Those California residents will no longer receive advertising fees for sales referred to Amazon.com, Endless.com, MYHABIT.COM or SmallParts.com. Please be assured that all qualifying advertising fees earned before today will be processed and paid in full in accordance with the regular payment schedule.
You are receiving this email because our records indicate that you are a resident of California. If you are not currently a resident of California, or if you are relocating to another state in the near future, you can manage the details of your Associates account here. And if you relocate to another state in the near future please contact us for reinstatement into the Amazon Associates Program.
To avoid confusion, we would like to clarify that this development will only impact our ability to offer the Associates Program to California residents and will not affect your ability to purchase from Amazon.com, Endless.com, MYHABIT.COM or SmallParts.com.
We have enjoyed working with you and other California-based participants in the Amazon Associates Program and, if this situation is rectified, would very much welcome the opportunity to re-open our Associates Program to California residents. As mentioned before, we are continuing to work on alternative ways to help California residents monetize their websites and we will be sure to contact you when these become available.
Regards,
The Amazon Associates Team
==========================
Anyone have some suggestions about working around this? I dont plan to move anytime soon?? Thanks P.s. isnt that 'nice' of them ...to still "allow" me to BUY from them!

Thanks

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Josiah

14 years ago

Both Amazon and the state governments are at fault here, but the sheer stupidity is coming from the government side of things. Is it greedy for Amazon to drop state-loads of affiliates to dodge taxes? Yes. But this behavior is obvious, they have consistently dropped states that introduced these taxes every single time without fail, yet more states keep trying to do it. Do they not see this simple pattern? If you try to tax amazon on their affiliate program, they drop your state. Everybody in the equation loses, everybody. All because of the volatile mix that is greed and stupidity.

Thanks
1 reply

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SteveDolan

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Josiah

Both Amazon and the state governments are at fault here, but the sheer stupidity is coming from the government side of things. Is it greedy for Amazon to drop state-loads of affiliates to dodge taxes? Yes. But this behavior is obvious, they have consistently dropped states that introduced these taxes every single time without fail, yet more states keep trying to do it. Do they not see this simple pattern? If you try to tax amazon on their affiliate program, they drop your state. Everybody in the equation loses, everybody. All because of the volatile mix that is greed and stupidity.

Actually the real villan of the piece is Wal-mart. They (in association with Target and Sears) are pushing this through and trying to shut down e-commerce and force people back into their stores. It's a bill aimed at AFFILIATES, not Amazon. Amazon is more than willing to collect sales tax, but in a fair and equitable manner - and to do that it has to be mandated at the federal level (which Amazon are pushing for). So the only leverage Amazon/Endless/Zappos et al have is to terminate affiliate agreements and hope that someone takes notice.

It's another case of a large corporation using their political power to bully their competition. And small business once again takes the brunt.

Thanks
1 reply

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sydneypm

14 years ago

Originally Posted by SteveDolan

Actually the real villan of the piece is Wal-mart. They (in association with Target and Sears) are pushing this through and trying to shut down e-commerce and force people back into their stores. It's a bill aimed at AFFILIATES, not Amazon. Amazon is more than willing to collect sales tax, but in a fair and equitable manner - and to do that it has to be mandated at the federal level (which Amazon are pushing for). So the only leverage Amazon/Endless/Zappos et al have is to terminate affiliate agreements and hope that someone takes notice.

It's another case of a large corporation using their political power to bully their competition. And small business once again takes the brunt.

Well said... and, although we should all speak our minds and let our gov't know what we think... the real issue comes down to adapting your business. The economy is changing and brick and mortar businesses don't like it. Walmart and the like have money to shape the laws, and we don't, so we can either devise a way to change our business or fail.

I've thought about this for a while and have decided to focus on Adsense income from my Amazon sites. Soon I'll flip all of them, be done with it and focus my attention on where I can make money.

Thanks

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affirm758

14 years ago

I am going to switch all my links to Barnes and Noble. Amazon if fighting a losing battle. In the end they will lose their entire affiliate program if they don't change their tune.

Thanks
1 reply

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zapseo 14 years ago

Amazon termination statements have been sent to California affiliates.

The law was signed by Gov Jerry Brown.
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seobro

14 years ago

Those of you that made fun of me are not laughing so hard now. I told you so. Please get out of cali now. This be just the beginning mon. Do you realize most of us make our money selling using amazon.

Amazon drops California associates to avoid sales tax - Jun. 29, 2011

I mean this is bigger news than ebay shutting is doors or pay pal messing up. I do like amazon. However, they are terminating all cali affs now. I told you it was coming. This is not the time for weeping. Action is what we require.

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Cris Cato 14 years ago

I, myself, got the same letter stating that our stupid governor signed the stupid bill! I was just beginning to get some sales and this happens. This really sucks! I really hope it doesn't get any worse than this. I know it's not the end of the world for most affiliate marketers and most will just move on and find new ways to make money, I just hope this trend does not continue with other merchants online! Bad Amazon bad bad bad!!
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4morereferrals

14 years ago

Ya .... my termination notice just arrived via email.

So does this mean I dont really owe them that $2.17 chargeback for the shoes someone returned :-)

Thanks

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Michael Daniels

14 years ago

Amazon is a slave driver so this might be bad news for some but i dont see how anyone can work for .04-.08 percentages... there is so many other ways to earn that would reward you far greater. It could be a blessing in disguise.

Thanks

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Sid Kaplan

14 years ago

Just go my confirmation of termination too! The Governor is now off my Christmas Card list :-) Oh well, on to something else I guess. A lot to be said for producing and marketing your own product(s).

Thanks
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Christi

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Sid Kaplan

Just go my confirmation of termination too! The Governor is now off my Christmas Card list :-) Oh well, on to something else I guess. A lot to be said for producing and marketing your own product(s).

Well said. We're actually just thinking of doing that - still thinking about what product though

.
It sucks to rely on other people and for your business to be taken away for such unfair reasons.

Unfortunately it's not only Amazon. It's a whole lot of other companies too. Those with affiliate programs from many retailers will know exactly what I mean when they check their inbox

Re Amazon - I may be mistaken but aren't they basically a huge re-seller? Meaning they buy from sellers and re-sell to the customer who placed the order? Because the bill isn't only about affiliate marketing but "affiliates" and "partners" in general, I wonder if that means that Amazon would have to pay sales tax to CA-based sellers, and then collect sales tax from the actual customer passing all that down to them, so the cost for the customer would end up being an extra 16-20% with the double sales tax - a huge markup that goes against their main selling point of being very cheap.
Does that make sense? I may be wrong but I think it's more complicated than Amazon simply avoiding to collect taxes from other states.

Thanks

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kkrueger

14 years ago

I got the nasty gram today too. I almost considered the out of state thing, but I know that if you have an accountant doing your taxes, and he sees income from an out of state address, 1) they are going to question it 2) you could be required to file an out of state return

Just some things to consider...

BTW, Overstock.com is probably right behind Amazon.

Thanks
1 reply

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WhosGotMoves 14 years ago

I came here hoping to find a "simple solution" but from the looks of it one doesn't really exist then? No easy way to create an out of state bank account or fictitious business without investing a pretty penny? I'm just starting and had spent a few weeks on a site completely dedicated to amazon affiliate sales. Someone make a WSO on how to get around this for us Cali residents fast!!
- Thanks
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gillzManiju

14 years ago

I just got the letter too. Usually politicians don't effect me directly. I'm not sure why Jerry Brown signed the law when he said he would put any new taxes on the ballot. Oh I guess he was probably lobbied to sign a bill that he didn't understand would cause California to lose $152 million not gain $300 million. Everywhere I read about this there is such misinformation. What are the politicians doing to this great country.

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Nightowl John 14 years ago

If I had been making more affiliate sales, I'd be tempted to file for unemployment.
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dagaul101

14 years ago

It's a pity that government legislation might be forcing some of the big guys to move out of state, the state of the economy does not help matters

Thanks

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cindyw

14 years ago

I too received the letter. However if you incorporate your business in Delaware or Nevada you can escape this for at least a few years. These will be the last bastions of the dreaded tax laws. It does not matter where your "isp" is. It is where you have set up your corp at. Where your computer is at makes absolutely no difference. And the great thing about Nevada and Delaware is that you pay no income tax on your earnings.

Cindy
An accountant in California (don't y'all shoot me)

[ 1 ] Thanks
2 replies

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Cool Hand Luke

14 years ago

Originally Posted by cindyw

I too received the letter. However if you incorporate your business in Delaware or Nevada you can escape this for at least a few years. These will be the last bastions of the dreaded tax laws. It does not matter where your "isp" is. It is where you have set up your corp at. Where your computer is at makes absolutely no difference. And the great thing about Nevada and Delaware is that you pay no income tax on your earnings.

Cindy
An accountant in California (don't y'all shoot me)

:rolleyes:
That is 100% false. Whether or not you have a Corp, and LLC, or any manner of business entity, You have to pay personal income taxes on your earnings just like everyone else.

Cindy, you are not an accountant, nor should you play one on the internet if you give out BS advice like that.

Thanks
1 reply

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Page-One

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Cool Hand Luke

:rolleyes:
That is 100% false. Whether or not you have a Corp, and LLC, or any manner of business entity, You have to pay personal income taxes on your earnings just like everyone else.

Luke, you too are wrong. Yes, Nevada too is likely soon to pass an Amazon tax, after which Amazon will shut down the affiliate program here. But no, Nevada is one of a handful of states that levy NO state income tax. I've lived and worked here for many years, and never paid a dime of state income tax. There isn't even a bureaucracy or paperwork to support it.

Thanks
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Cool Hand Luke

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Page-One

Luke, you too are wrong. Yes, Nevada too is likely soon to pass an Amazon tax, after which Amazon will shut down the affiliate program here. But no, Nevada is one of a handful of states that levy NO state income tax. I've lived and worked here for many years, and never paid a dime of state income tax. There isn't even a bureaucracy or paperwork to support it.

:rolleyes:
Re-read what I wrote.

Again, while there is no STATE income tax in NV for NEVADA RESIDENTS, there are federal and self-employment taxes in EVERY state. So, YOU are wrong. I hope you know you should have been paying taxes every year to the Feds, otherwise you'll be looking at a sizeable tax bill one of these days.

More on-topic, this is a thread about CA residents. You are a NV resident; there is a BIG difference.

I am a CA state resident with a Henderson, NV-based LLC. As a CA resident, I still have to pay state income tax on personal income. CA doesn't just say "Oh well your biz is incorporated in Vegas, yeah, you can just keep all your money." :p

Thanks
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Page-One 14 years ago

I don't think Cindyw the accountant, or myself, missed that we all pay U.S. federal taxes in all states. In fact, I explicitly mentioned STATE tax, not federal. But while California Amazon associates might think they can move to Nevada, where they can have the added advantage of no state income tax, and continue their Amazon income, is false hope, given the high likelihood that they could move here and find Amazon almost immediately shutting down the associates program here, as well.
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jakdwak

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Cool Hand Luke

:rolleyes:
Re-read what I wrote.

Again, while there is no STATE income tax in NV for NEVADA RESIDENTS, there are federal and self-employment taxes in EVERY state. So, YOU are wrong. I hope you know you should have been paying taxes every year to the Feds, otherwise you'll be looking at a sizeable tax bill one of these days.

More on-topic, this is a thread about CA residents. You are a NV resident; there is a BIG difference.

I am a CA state resident with a Henderson, NV-based LLC. As a CA resident, I still have to pay state income tax on personal income. CA doesn't just say "Oh well your biz is incorporated in Vegas, yeah, you can just keep all your money." :p

Right. And the issue isn't us avoiding taxes, the issue is a new tax eliminating income opportunities in Cali. It's sad that so many California voters won't know about the ripple effects.

Thanks
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myob

14 years ago

Originally Posted by jakdwak

And the issue isn't us avoiding taxes, the issue is a new tax eliminating income opportunities in Cali. It's sad that so many California voters won't know about the ripple effects.

This is not a "new" tax. California residents, as also in many other states, have always been required to pay sales tax on internet purchases. But compliance is basically non-existent. This nexus legislation was an attempt to enforce sales tax liability, which has of course back-fired in all the other states where the law has passed. It has become an issue because of the very fact almost everyone has avoided paying internet sales tax.

Thanks

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Page-One

14 years ago

Originally Posted by cindyw

I too received the letter. However if you incorporate your business in Delaware or Nevada you can escape this for at least a few years. These will be the last bastions of the dreaded tax laws.

You wish! Please at least read up before posting what amounts to false hope. Nevada (and I live in Vegas so keep track of this) is moving full-steam ahead on the Amazon tax. Google is our friend.

Thanks

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celente

14 years ago

sometimes I feel isolated living in australia.

But this is really horrible. I have two friends in Cali and one of them is a marketer who uses amazon. He is going to be spiiting chips over this.

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eBusinessChamp

14 years ago

I knew that I should have registered my company in Nevada!

Thanks

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tpw

14 years ago

Originally Posted by MatthewNeer

Your thoughts?

Isn't this what they call, "Californication"?

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CurtisSWN

14 years ago

Remember the Boston "tea party".....

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David McKee

14 years ago

Perhaps it is time for a new "Model"... So instead of being "Affiliate Marketers" we become "Proxy Marketers" and we become "out of state fulfillment entities...

In effect we purchase the products ourselves (if we live in a non nexus state) or through a proxy company (that is in a non nexus state or in a non-taxed foreign land), and then simply provide a fulfillment capability where the product is shipped from the non-nexus state to the buyer without any mention of the actual company from which the item was originally purchased - much easier to do with digital products as there is no warehouse or shipping required, but works with physical products as well.

Everything is outsource, you provide the traffic and clicks, pretty much same as now.

let me know what you think.

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Candela

14 years ago

Originally Posted by David McKee

Perhaps it is time for a new "Model"... So instead of being "Affiliate Marketers" we become "Proxy Marketers" and we become "out of state fulfillment entities...

In effect we purchase the products ourselves (if we live in a non nexus state) or through a proxy company (that is in a non nexus state or in a non-taxed foreign land), and then simply provide a fulfillment capability where the product is shipped from the non-nexus state to the buyer without any mention of the actual company from which the item was originally purchased - much easier to do with digital products as there is no warehouse or shipping required, but works with physical products as well.

Everything is outsource, you provide the traffic and clicks, pretty much same as now.

let me know what you think.

Quite an interesting idea if I understand it correctly,what is the "fulfillment capability" you speak of? Are you saying to buy the stuff from Amazon via your own affiliate sites using a proxy company you own and then arranging the shipping yourself? Where would the funds come from to buy the items? How would this be profitable?

Thanks
1 reply

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David McKee

14 years ago

The proxy company buys the product from Amazon for example and ships it directly to the actual buyer who came through your site. The shipping could even be provided by amazon in the same way as they ship to your father/mother/friend (for example) when you buy them a Christmas gift online. It would appear only as the proxy company buying, and most significantly, "earning the commission" and "not paying taxes".

I can even think of a good name for the company: TPPI "Tea Party Proxies Incorporated"

-DTM

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GlobalTrader

14 years ago

Originally Posted by David McKee

The proxy company buys the product from Amazon for example and ships it directly to the actual buyer who came through your site. The shipping could even be provided by amazon in the same way as they ship to your father/mother/friend (for example) when you buy them a Christmas gift online. It would appear only as the proxy company buying, and most significantly, "earning the commission" and "not paying taxes".-DTM

Have you considered that your 'proxy' company is now assuming all the risk in fraudulent orders? You also will have the usual 3-5% credit card fees and when you add those additional fees to a markup you would have to place on each item to make it profitable, your item would probably be priced much higher than someone just buying it direct from Amazon??

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dunkinbbb

14 years ago

Originally Posted by GlobalTrader

Have you considered that your 'proxy' company is now assuming all the risk in fraudulent orders? You also will have the usual 3-5% credit card fees and when you add those additional fees to a markup you would have to place on each item to make it profitable, your item would probably be priced much higher than someone just buying it direct from Amazon??

And not only that:

Its one level of risk to play games with Amazon.

A whole 'nother order of magnitude to play games with the CA government

Thanks

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Chris Q

Banned 14 years ago

I'm very sorry for California Amazon affiliates who were affected by this STUPID law! Screw your GOVERNOR!

Now who's next to be terminated? THE WHOLE WORLD?

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whynes

14 years ago

Originally Posted by diabloepic

Hello,

Amazon deferentially opposes the novel tax compilation schemes. If California affiliates are completed, it could charge jobs. Will be cut rotten overnight if pending legislation aimed at adaptable their operations becomes rule.
Thanks!!!

So how does this work tax-wise? I incorporate LLC in Nev, have Amazon
send money to my bank in california, and then I use the money
to pay my mortgage, etc.

Is this now a taxable salary from the corporation to me, the only employee?

Thanks
1 reply

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Dan C. Rinnert

14 years ago

Affiliates making a full-time income online need to do what this guy is doing.

Originally Posted by LA Times

(Full Story) One affiliate, Ken Rockwell of San Diego, the owner of a 12-year-old photography website, said he planned to move out of state.

"Will it be Las Vegas or Scottsdale or Ensenada?" he said. "It's a question of where, not if."

Once states start taking a hit in income taxes, and not realizing the full gains from their new sales taxes, they're either going to have to raise taxes higher and drive more taxpayers from the state or they're going to have to start using common sense approaches to growing revenues by decreasing tax burdens and making their state more attractive to business.

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dunkinbbb 14 years ago

Wonder how far the ripples on this will spread due to fear?

I just got an email from OfferVault which says in part

"The laws specify that if there is any affiliate of any company making revenue for a product in that state, then the company itself has to pay taxes for any transaction in those states.
My explanation is purposely obtuse and vague, because in many cases so are the laws that are being passed. The definition of a transaction or purchase is not very specific and thus is extremely problematic. This means that anyone engaged in any sort of ecommerce, whether it is sale of a product, promotion of a program, signups to site, in theory could be forced to pay those states taxes.

Thus if you are CPA network promoting a product and you have affiliates in those states, you may be liable for taxes in those states. Why? Because as anyone who is in this industry knows, the definition of who is selling the product, versus what a network is and even what a publisher is, is often difficult to pin down. Sometimes affiliates of CPA Networks are the publisher, sometimes they are just a PPC buyer, and sometimes the network is a publisher of another network. With all the connections, who is to say what establishes the nexus? Don't expect States that are desperate for money to actually define this for you, but instead send any company that has any affiliates in that state, anyone that reports that their money is made from marketing, tax bills. We are their new "banks

Seems like biggest losers, once again are small businesses in California.
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Marian Berghes

14 years ago

I've been reading on a couple of sites that the California law would apply to all affiliates...not just amazon and the likes.

For example Mike Hill announced that he would no longer work with affiliates from CA because of that law.

So...which version of the story is true?

Thanks

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amanijl

14 years ago

How many states has this happened in? Any word that it'll be coming to Wisconsin as well???

Thanks
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AnniePot

14 years ago

I too received both termination emails: first the warning of impending termination, followed by the confirmation of termination immediately Governor Brown signed the law. Both emails explained this was happening to me because I am a California resident.

BUT I'M NOT! I moved away from California to NE Texas in December 2006.

And before you ask - yes, I immediately updated all my information with Amazon. Since December 2006 my address has been in Texas, my commission is paid into a bank with a Texas address, the email address I have registered with them is *** at tx.rr.com - HINT: TX = TEXAS.

Every day I log on to my Amazon account using a Texas Time Warner IP address.

I replied immediately to each termination email pointing out each of these facts, but so far, no reply. I've scoured their Admin but can't find a contact phone number. If anyone knows of one, please let me know.

Thanks
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dunkinbbb

14 years ago

Originally Posted by AnniePot

I too received both termination emails: first the warning of impending termination, followed by the confirmation of termination immediately Governor Brown signed the law. Both emails explained this was happening to me because I am a California resident.

BUT I'M NOT! I moved away from California to NE Texas in December 2006.

And before you ask - yes, I immediately updated all my information with Amazon. Since December 2006 my address has been in Texas, my commission is paid into a bank with a Texas address, the email address I have registered with them is *** at tx.rr.com - HINT: TX = TEXAS.

Every day I log on to my Amazon account using a Texas Time Warner IP address.

I replied immediately to each termination email pointing out each of these facts, but so far, no reply. I've scoured their Admin but can't find a contact phone number. If anyone knows of one, please let me know.

Annie:

Can't PM you with this -

Go to Amazon - Your orders - Returns - New Return -Help (at bottom right) - Customer Service - Contact us - Phone. You might have to "fake a return inquiry"

I'm sure it will be a different department - but every time I've used this I have gotten a human immediately - who could point you in the right direction.

Good Luck

Does this qualify as my first WSO :-)

dunkinbbb

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AnniePot

14 years ago

Originally Posted by dunkinbbb

Annie:

Can't PM you with this -

Go to Amazon - Your orders - Returns - New Return -Help (at bottom right) - Customer Service - Contact us - Phone. You might have to "fake a return inquiry"

I'm sure it will be a different department - but every time I've used this I have gotten a human immediately - who could point you in the right direction.

Good Luck

Does this qualify as my first WSO :-)

dunkinbbb

Thank Dunkinbbb - I'll try that route. As you say, that should give me a human being who can point me in the right direction. Much appreciated

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JamesGw

14 years ago

I'm not sure if they'll really pull out of California, but I like that they're taking a stand.

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Candela 14 years ago

Originally Posted by JamesGw

I'm not sure if they'll really pull out of California, but I like that they're taking a stand.

They already sent the termination emails,there is no "if they'll really pull out" to it anymore.
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Sysbase

14 years ago

If I open an LLC in another state and just had my Amazon account closed can I just switch my address information to my new LLC and ask to be included again? Or do I have to start a whole new account with them?

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blueberries

14 years ago

That's because Cali is broke and has been bust for a while. Their trying to squeeze and find every drop of green revenue for that state. Amazon is really standing up to this tax bill. wow

This should send a message to all the other states.

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DavidTT

14 years ago

news like this are pretty scary.

Not for the fact that you cant promote amazon stuff anymore but it just gives a bad impression of whats ahead for the IM world. I've read somewhere here that there was a similar case where affiliate programs where banned from a certain state.

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GlobalTrader

14 years ago

Someone from another affiliate network just sent me a link to a 13 minute YouTube video documentary about an Illinois dotcom company (FatWallet.com) that physically picked up everything and moved 5 miles to the north into Wisconsin.

This might be a good video to refer to your California legislators (but I doubt they will bother to watch it) but something that any California affiliate needs to consider goes beyond just Amazon and really affects you with ALL your affiliate sales.

I am definitely sending the link to my Pennsylvania legislator because both parties in PA seem to have their goals set on following California -

YouTube - ‪Moving Day: A FatWallet...

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Gregg

14 years ago

Hopefully the big retailers will see enough value in us promoting them and not get behind the lobby that is promoting this legislation.

It would be interesting to see which side the big retailers (not just Amazon) would actually benefit from the most.

It sucks when states and the fed go after additional revenue. All it does is put a knife in the economy which causes them to collect even less revenue.

I hear Arizona is nice.....

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Dougger1

14 years ago

We got hammered here in Colorado more than a year ago. I moved my account to Oklahoma where I have a a licensed LLC.

However, here's the big picture. More and more states are going to do this because finances are so tight. Before you move your amazon account to another state, look at its financial picture. If it looks like it's in dire straits, chose another state. You can just bet that if it's in trouble, it will be looking for new taxes viz. Amazon.com.

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JRC

14 years ago

Got my account termination letter today too. It's crazy.

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Vastidious 14 years ago

I just have to share a response to one of the articles I read about this today. Someone posted this lovely poem.

"Give us you tired business executives, your poor over-taxed small businesses, your huddled masses yearning to be free from decades of "progressive" social engineering experiments and profligate spending and over-regulation. The wretched refuse left in the wake of your high crime neighborhoods by your shores teaming with welfare recipients and ungrateful illegal aliens. Send these, the hard workers, the ones actually pulling the tax wagon full of freeloaders and Gucci lawyers, tempest-tost to me. I lift my lamp beside the state border!"

Amen! I wonder if the CA lawmakers included the additional Unemployment benefits that will have to be paid out by newly unemployed "Amazon Affiliates". Since for some of them, they took away 80-100% of their income.
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streamline1

14 years ago

Hi

How the Affiliate Tax will Hurt CPA Networks Also.
-----
By

ace Lattin ~ pace @ pacelattin.com

There has been a great deal of discussion of all the Affiliate Tax laws being passed in the media. Unfortunately, thanks to a great spin campaign by companies such as Walmart, the discussion has been focused on how these new Nexus Tax laws will affect large companies like Amazon and Overstock. Time and time again these new laws being proposed are called "Amazon Taxes" for the sole purpose of ignoring the rest of the companies that will be affected when these taxes are passed. The real truth behind the Affiliate Tax debate is that these laws will have a profound and significant affect on almost every company in the industry, from the largest to the smallest - but will have the greatest impact on the small companies.

This is not an "Amazon" tax, or an "Overstock" tax, but instead a "Small Business Tax" that has been labeled incorrectly in order that the general media might ignore the reality of what these taxes will do to small businesses. I've actually met a few attorneys who don't quite understand the real problems with these laws. Let's quickly look at what most of these tax laws will do, and explain it simply:

The laws specify that if there is any affiliate of any company making revenue for a product in that state, then the company itself has to pay taxes for any transaction in those states.

My explanation is purposely obtuse and vague, because in many cases so are the laws that are being passed. The definition of a transaction or purchase is not very specific and thus is extremely problematic. This means that anyone engaged in any sort of ecommerce, whether it is sale of a product, promotion of a program, signups to site, in theory could be forced to pay those states taxes.

Thus if you are CPA network promoting a product and you have affiliates in those states, you may be liable for taxes in those states. Why? Because as anyone who is in this industry knows, the definition of who is selling the product, versus what a network is and even what a publisher is, is often difficult to pin down.

Sometimes affiliates of CPA Networks are the publisher, sometimes they are just a PPC buyer, and sometimes the network is a publisher of another network. With all the connections, who is to say what establishes the nexus? Don't expect States that are desperate for money to actually define this for you, but instead send any company that has any affiliates in that state, anyone that reports that their money is made from marketing, tax bills. We are their new "banks."

Even if we knew the answer definitively to the different questions, many companies, from lead generation firms to dating sites are going to start avoiding CPA networks in those States for that specific reason. They do not want to risk that working with a company in a certain State will somehow cause a nexus and thus require them to file paperwork, file additional taxes. They'd rather make it easy and work with someone else.

Thus, as I started, the victims here are not the Amazons of the world. They are the small businesses. Most CPA networks are just that: Small businesses, with a few employees, working hand in hand with their affiliates to create valuable opportunities for their advertisers. They, along with their affiliates will suffer the most. These taxes are aimed at our industry, our friends, our community and our businesses. If we continue to allow them continue without standing up, supporting those people who are fighting, it is very possible in a few years we all will wish we did.

**Posted in full ~ with permission from Mr. Lattin**

____
Dan

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EvolBaby 14 years ago

Okay, as you guys may not know I work with lots of television and radio talk shows.

This issue has turned into something nasty as we're forgetting that many colleges students and military personnel now overseas have their own websites selling Amazon goods. They depended on that money to make ends meet, pay tuition, feed families.

Now they're screwed. The college kids have only a few weeks to hustle up and change their websites, or have their residences relocated and more. If they don't they either can't go to school or they'll do so starving.

Military don't have the opportunities to just up and change data and restructure as it's tough to run a business when evil terrorist warlords and their sinister henchmen are shooting at you.

This isn't an issue of California or other states being concerned about the revenue of their states. If Governor Brown really gave a flying fart there wouldn't be any illegal aliens and gangs in California who cost the state tens of billions of dollars annually not some pissant few hundred million they think they'll get via taxing online businesses.

It's all bs. A lazy legislator's way of leaning on the people who are trying to stay above water.

What is really hurting me right now are the senior citizens and disabled war vets, retired law enforcement, retired teachers who have their little Amazon sites to help them get by and now they're screwed. Many may not make it.

You can see how the problem is America is no longer a nation of laws, it's a nation of lawyers.
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Jake Swearingen

14 years ago

How many have received the letters?

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Jake Swearingen 14 years ago

And, I'm a reporter with SF Weekly. Would love to talk to any California-based Amazon Associates. Hit me up for contact info -- unable to post it on this forum right now.
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myob

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Jake Swearingen

How many have received the letters?

Around 25,000 maybe more. We've been warned for well over 2 years. :rolleyes:

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kindsvater

14 years ago

Just read a 'twilight zone' quote from the California Retailers Association thanking Governor Brown for leveling the playing field for California businesses by taxing Amazon.

Huh?

Existing California businesses remain in the exact same competitive position with Amazon because Amazon still isn't paying any sales taxes.

Amazon has pulled out of paying CA affiliates so there is no financial benefit to the state.

All that has happened are tens of thousands of people have lost some or all of their online businesses, which will put a further strain on the terrible California economy.

It isn't just Amazon. Many (most) major online retailers are terminating their California affiliates immediately.

Here's a real kicker ...

Not to mention names to avoid political issues, but late at night, immediately before approval, a new bill included as part of the budget package was publicly shown for the 1st time that prohibits California from firing a certain type of employee. Let's just say it was not online business owners and marketers who were guaranteed jobs.

.

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Page-One 14 years ago

I don't understand all the "Hey, let's just move to Nevada" stuff on this thread. I live in Vegas, and I can tell you that right now an Amazon tax bill is moving full steam ahead in our greedy, brain-damaged state legislature. The governor is of the same party, so has said he will sign it if/when it passes.

Before you go packing up to move here, at least do some minimal homework and Google "nevada amazon tax" and read up. It's coming here too. Count on it.

One of the largest west coast Amazon distribution centers is in Fernley, just east of Reno. Amazon had already made clear they will shut it down and move elsewhere if Nevada passes the tax. They made this same threat to Texas, and Texas for now at least has backed off. Don't expect that to happen here. We have politicians here who would tax by the breath and heartbeat if they could.
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newimguy

14 years ago

Originally Posted by kindsvater

Just read a 'twilight zone' quote from the California Retailers Association thanking Governor Brown for leveling the playing field for California businesses by taxing Amazon.

Huh?

.

The actual quote is "We thank Governor Jerry Brown and the leaders in the California State Legislature who have demonstrated their leadership and commitment to California businesses by passing and signing e-fairness into law. Small and large businesses across the state have been held at a major disadvantage by the current law that out-of-state online companies like Amazon.com and Overstock.com have exploited for years. This has cost us jobs and revenues."

I'm so weirded out by this quote. Amazon is not collecting taxes. Do they not know this or was their actual target getting the affiliates program closed as Amazon stated?

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whynes 14 years ago

Originally Posted by Jake Swearingen

How many have received the letters?

Give or take the odd mistake here or there, it would be in
the neighborhood of 100% Amazon associates in California;
estimated in the press to be about 10,000.

Amazon isn't the only company terminating California
affiliates. They're just the most visible.

The real numbers, the whole fallout, I wouldn't imagine having
any more accurate accounting other than by watching the
official reports of unemployment in California over the coming
weeks and making your own estimates based on that.
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- EvolBaby 14 years ago
  
  Whynes, I'd not been aware of the other affiliate programs that just dropped the hammer on their members.
  
  I went and checked and gosh oh golly the number of people in California that just lost some or their primary incomes has got to be between 500,000 to 1 million.
  
  What I didn't think about was the number of people who use their Facebook and MySpace pages and Twitter as feeders to their affiliate sales sites.
  
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sydneypm

14 years ago

While everyone is upset about this, I hope you are all still taking care of your business. As i see it, there are probably 2 things to immediately take care of;

1. Get Amazon ads off your site asap. Your readers can still use those links to leave your site and you make no money. Alternatively, if you use Adsense or have your own product, this may translate into more money clicks through other routes.

2. Research other affiliate programs. For example, Best Buy is even advertising "Other retailers terminated you. We wont!" They explain on their site that they already have a presence in CA, therefore already pay taxes so nothing changes. There are probably other retailers ready to jump on this opportunity.

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Oprah

Banned 14 years ago

damn just got the letter too. F this BS.

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jaiganeshv

14 years ago

That this as a chance and just think of and jot down all the possible mayhem that could happen for your online business and answer how are you going to handle them???

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EvolBaby

14 years ago

Originally Posted by jaiganeshv

That this as a chance and just think of and jot down all the possible mayhem that could happen for your online business and answer how are you going to handle them???

Thank you

That's the best piece of advice here.

People don't build up backup plans and strategies.

Anyhow, this will be a big issue on the Bill Handel show here in California.

It's on KFI 640 AM. You can listen on via the web and actually call him on Saturday mornings on his "Handel On The Law" show where he cracks jokes, gives out legal advice etc. He's bound to talk about this issue and harshly.

He also belongs to the Legal Zoom website that is a lawyer referral site you can ask experts and they handle such things as LLC's, wills, and just about every legal manner.

Here's my link: Legal Zoom, legal referral site

Anyhow, Bill Handel is probably going to have Gov. Brown on the air regarding this issue as will probably the radio hosts John and Ken from the same radio station.

Again, I'm glad I didn't go the affiliate route as I knew it was unstable. However it can all be fixed if sides would agree on a simple administrative strategy but it won't happen as long as the lawmakers have their hands in the pockets of the big businesses.

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Andrew S

14 years ago

I've been reinstated after about 20 hours.

I made a new thread about it, maybe it will help someone.

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txconx

14 years ago

Those of you considering out-of-state LLCs need to remember that you will have to file as a "foreign corporation" in the state of California - to the tune of $800/year.

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Sonomacats

14 years ago

If you have an LLC in another state, but make it clear that you live in California, then you will have to pay state taxes and deal with California fallout.

HOWEVER, if you also make it look as if you live in another state, then you can "visit" anywhere you want, but have the advantages of other state.

If Nevada is contemplating passing the Amazon tax, then get an address in Wyoming. You can also get an excellent LLC that totally protects your privacy. Yes there is some state tax, but it's better than California and it's a heck of a lot better than losing all of your affiliate income just because some jackass in Sacramento decided to pass something to penalize hard workers.

I'm certainly not going to ditch my income, let alone the years of hard work, just because of this.

There are plenty of private mailbox companies in Wyoming and you can sign up online. Then just make it look as if you moved.

You can legally declare residency in whatever state you want. Just like full time RVers who have one state they call home, but live wherever the heck they feel like.

I was going to recommend New Mexico, but apparently they are contemplating the Amazon tax, as well. However, they are an excellent state for your LLC. You do not have to be a resident of the state where you have your LLC. In fact, it's better if you're not.

Check out this article: Amazon to shut down California affiliates over new sales tax law)

I know a number of people who have declared their legal residency in Nevada, but live in California. It works just fine as long as you take the steps and get the mindset right.

And you only have to pay the "foreign corporation" tax if you make it clear you live in California. You don't want to do that. You need to be clear that you're only "visiting" California, but you live elsewhere.

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RCwriter

14 years ago

Here in Colorado, we've been prohibited for quite a while. Has anyone run into anything that is even a close substitute for Amazon, other than cobbling together a bunch of offers from wherever?

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bengirwb

14 years ago

When I visited some friends in Oregon, I was surprised to find Oregon has no sales tax.
If a product was labeled $29.95, that's exactly I paid.
I asked the store manager, who was happy he didn't have to fool with sales tax.
"We don't expect too much from government," he explained.

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hirstmusic

14 years ago

If people in California haven't woken up yet, they never will. When the people around you keep voting in these idiots, well you have no choice but to VOTE WITH YOUR FEET!

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Sonomacats

14 years ago

Exactly!

The people in Sacramento are clueless! Too bad they're not required to actually experience the very thing they're voting on.

Time to "move" to another state. Don't let these idiots screw you up!

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Sonomacats

14 years ago

I'm not saying run away.

But if you don't make it look as if you have, you will lose your income if you've been doing well with Amazon.

And if you make it look as if you've left California because of this, maybe they'll change their minds and then you can "relocate" back to California (or whatever other state that passed the stupid Affiliate tax).

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Sonomacats

14 years ago

Oh, and now I see Arkansas is on the chopping block!

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Jason Zalesky

14 years ago

This will happen in the next few years to all the states. The fact is that every state is broke and they only can find money in taxing online sales. Hell Texas has been talking about it for the last year and its getting closer to be fact by the day.

The problem if it does happen then internet sales are going to die or be pushed to all the brick and mortor business. Like the Walmarts, JCPenneys, Targets, etc. Hell JCPenneys just said it does more online than it does with its stores.

I already get taxed when it comes to buying through amazon since its about 20 miles from my house here. Or one of their main hubs. This whole economy is just going down the drain. They try to make it look pretty or sound like they are doing better but its just going in the opposite direction.

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gforces

14 years ago

This is going 'wildfire across the internet'.... and looks like this is the direction America is moving. Here's a quote from another thread I found:

"Let this be warning shot across the bow to all of us. This tax will go nationwide eventually. My advice is that somebody might want to start lobbying Congress now.
Here is my reasoning….we have states far and wide that are desperately starving for tax revenue. Getting it this way is an easy, low risk way for them to do it. It’s a lot easier than pulling cops off the street or cutting teachers pensions. Basically, we are an invisible workforce…let’s face it, that’s part of why we do it.

However, we better start waking up…because as California goes, so goes the nation in many many things. Once states and the Feds wake up to the “low hanging fruit” of this kind of tax revenue, there are all going to try it."

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Jason Zalesky

14 years ago

I was just reading more on this and it sounds like Walmart and several other big companies are trying to get the guys dropped from Amazon. So my question is has anyone used Walmart and what do they pay out?

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myob

14 years ago

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troybh

14 years ago

Amazon is not the wrong one here. They just want a fair handshake from the states. If the supreme court rules that they do not have to collect a sales tax then that is what should happen. Walmart who put out of work millions of people because they said "We just have a better business model" is now crying fowl because amazon has a better business model. Sucks. As has been said the US government wants all of us in their grid and the one last opportunity to break out by doing IM is gonna be gone sometime. Sad but true. Bankers and politicians are all controlling us and they are all scumbags just like this Jerry Brown.

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verneir

14 years ago

Originally Posted by troybh

Amazon is not the wrong one here. They just want a fair handshake from the states. If the supreme court rules that they do not have to collect a sales tax then that is what should happen. Walmart who put out of work millions of people because they said "We just have a better business model" is now crying fowl because amazon has a better business model. Sucks. As has been said the US government wants all of us in their grid and the one last opportunity to break out by doing IM is gonna be gone sometime. Sad but true. Bankers and politicians are all controlling us and they are all scumbags just like this Jerry Brown.

Guys, seriously.. statements like these are basically screaming "economic slavery", which is something people have been talking about for at least 30 years. Just go and google "Zeitgeist Addendum" and watch it..

By the way, on the same note - as far as economy, history, etc - do you know why the US is not on the gold standard?

Did you know that in the history of the United States of America, it has been *illegal* to own gold? Don't believe me?

Executive Order 6102 is an Executive Order signed on April 5, 1933, by U.S. President Franklin D. Roosevelt "forbidding the Hoarding of Gold Coin, Gold Bullion, and Gold Certificates within the continental United States". The order criminalized the possession of monetary gold by any individual, partnership, association or corporation.
Executive Order 6102 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Owning Gold & Silver is Terrorism

Check out sites like www.goldsilver.com for information on the precious metals in general.

Hmmmmm....... I wonder. Are all those companies in the US trying to encourage folks to buy Gold lately anticipating a crash? Perhaps they just want to convert their gold to fiat currency, in the hopes that their capital will be retained?

What about the folks that keep advertising, "We BUY Gold!".. are they anticipating that gold is undervalued and that it will significantly increase in value over the next 5 to 10 years?

Don't know... don't know.

For that matter, for all the 'that's unconstitutional' talk that goes around, I wonder how many US citizens have actually read the consitution. It's not a long read.

Here's an interesting article.
Unconstitutional Money

Why do you suppose the prohibition against using "any Thing but gold and silver coin" as money was removed from the bankers' version of the Constitutional cite? Could it be that the Federal Reserve Bank is perpetuating an un-Constitutional monetary system known as fractional reserve banking using un-backed Federal Reserve notes? And, that if they came right out and told us that the Constitution prohibited "bank note paper money" - such as the system they have fostered upon us - we just might OBJECT?

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verneir 14 years ago

Oh, also I don't have any love for Walmart or anyone else. Walmart also puts people out of business. They've put many, many people out of business.

It's funny how people who are employed, particularily gainfully employed, profitable corporations, politicians, etc seem to jump on the bandwagon for trains of thought like,

"You just need to learn, grow and adapt. Move with the times."

Yet if their power base, their personal little empires become threatened.. what do they do? Attempt to use whatever means at their disposal to control the situation.

What's even more funny about that, is that in the end it never actually works.

I'll give you an example which I'm sure many of you won't see as I do. We're marketers. Learning and working with branding concepts, consumer psychology, and the like we gain a unique perspective on what types of things allows a business to thrive.

What happens to a company over time when it line extends right into infinity?

But, see, a lot of people either don't know any better or don't care. Because it's all about THEM, and in the HERE and NOW.. rarely does a CEO actually understand and care about the future. They care about the here and now, making their bonuses, and getting out.

Granted, there is a good bit of my opinion injected here but.. still. I stand by the spirit of what I've said.

Now.. to continue that line of thought, though, it really comes back to one thing in the end: Greed.

Greed is not something does anyone any good when left unchecked. Unfortunately it is probably part of human nature, or at the least part of modern Western society, but as with anything when it is taken too far bad things happen.

That's all we're seeing here. Everybody has their hands out looking for their payout... and guess whats going to happen in the end? Nothing good, at least not for us, not unless things start changing dramatically.
- Thanks
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The Lurker

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Daniel Brock

I hate to break it to everyone but it's only a matter of time before the US govey eliminates most online business opportunities.

They want people locked into their grid with no way of breaking out, and this "online thing" is one of the few remaining opportunities to do just that.

Soon visa/mastercard/paypal will start cracking down. Email providers will follow.

And these absurd tax laws lead the way.

Hmmm, maybe you should come out with a product about that very topic.

Call it 'The Deadbeat Affiliate Loophole'.

...see many of your own sites lose in the SERPS since Panda, Dan? Or have you been spared the agony?

Originally Posted by Jason Zalesky

This will happen in the next few years to all the states. The fact is that every state is broke and they only can find money in taxing online sales.

Yes, and we all know why that is.

All countries are rife with corruption of political entities in the name of corporate and personal gain, and expediency - the US, however, simply seems to have perfected that process.

Which is why we instead have Trickle Up Economics, no Trade Tariffs (unlike Germany and most other countries, who actually protect the workers and middle class) and the rapid destruction of the Middle Class, no effective industrial, environmental, and financial regulatory agencies (just 'lip service'), a small Oligarchy bleeding the rest of us dry for short-term gains (kind of like the production of alcohol from yeast fermentation - eventually, the poisonous byproducts kill off the producers in a self-limiting reaction), and virtually every policy or support system that should be in the hands of the government for reasons of public good is being privatized instead - corporate opportunism for the benefit of the cronies of a select few.

(Michigan's 'Emergency Managers'? Union-Stripping Bills? De-funding of Planned Parenthood, the EPA, and Republican refusal to allow the appointment of a head to our Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, our Banking Watchdog group (Elizabeth Warren) - as well as continually vetoing appointments of many other, currently open (empty), essential positions within our government?

Stripping away the rights of women (keep 'em 'barefoot and pregnant') by doing away with abortion to keep them slaves to their biology, and maintain a patriarchal status quo and inequality?

Destroying the ability of voting drives to register first-time voters (and the poor), who overwhelmingly vote Democratic?

Stripping retirement benefits and Medicare/Medicaid, giving folks a 'voucher' that won't last 'em two days of expenses in a decent hospital?

Some (very few, very rich) folks want to Keep You Poor and KILL YOU - but not before they can bleed you for all you're worth.

And they get their base (which they both despise, and fear) to vote on emotion, using smoke and mirrors (gay rights, abortion, drug war - crap they don't really care ONE WHIT ABOUT), to hide their true agenda - without whose support they would never get elected in a popular vote.

The sad part is, the bait-and-switch WORKS - and will keep working. And the GOP is actively doing its best efforts to make sure the current administration fails (cutting all programs and spending that have a net positive effect on the economy, while redistributing everything upwards - and cutting taxes even more)

----

Which is too bad, because just re-implementing Clinton-era income tax rates and raising the Capital Gains tax to 17% (two measly points) would fund all our programs into the future indefinitely, and close our debt faster than you can say 'What IOU?'

And unfortunately, there's really nothing anyone can do about it - except to take care of their own (immediate family). The game is rigged, the deck is stacked - and most of us lost a long time ago.

Which is where online businesses come in - and why this is such a threat for us. And if you haven't started creating your OWN products, then this should be a wake-up call to you.

Pretty soon, there will be NO safety net in this country - and we'll have a 'Thailand' system of retirement.

(i.e. the kids take care of the adults, many of whom have no other visible means of support)

Too bad our culture keeps devaluing the older generations year after year - as well as our sense of obligation and responsibility to them.

------

Wish I could be more positive about it, but that's 'the way it is', to quote the esteemed Walter Cronkite.

Originally Posted by rom173

Edit: After reading all of Page-One's posts, LLC's don't even look good. God Help us All! Lets get rid of these politicians who have no value, create no jobs, and think that taxing the already struggling is the answer. And I don't want to hear another word from these guys about making us more competitive with China. In doing so we will have to earn much less than we are now, in order for companies to move manufacturing jobs back to the US.

No, but for starters, we absolutely have to increase trade tariffs - like most other smart countries do - see above rant. The reason we don't have them is because of the business Oligarchy, who wants to use cheap labor in China and Southeast Asia and still be able to ship their own products back over here to be sold to the mass market.

The fact that (native, not MNCs with manufacturing capabilities located overseas) companies in China and India can do the same - and outsource certain jobs from the American sector to those third party providers - just adds insult to injury. But those policies all started HERE, with a few dozen large companies and the complicity of those politicians whom they'd bought.

I was in product management at a large MNC about 10 years ago with manufacturing facilities in the US, and over a mere five year period, we moved a few of our plants TWICE - first to Mexico, and then to SEA (Southeast Asia), as even Mexico became too costly to produce our products labor-wise.

Policies like NAFTA and our current trade policies, in conjunction with (current and proposed) taxation laws, are quickly destroying our Middle Class (a group which is essential for keeping our economy stable, long-term) - just as the Oligarchy intended.

==> They don't give a s**t about us. They never have. And they'll keep doing so until the villagers chase after them with pitchforks and torches.

--

As for this - too bad, I was considering relocating to California. The San Fran area is pretty nice, all told - if you can afford it.

-TL

Thanks
1 reply

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davidjames42973

14 years ago

This really is crummy, but most of us saw it coming from a mile away.

One thing you can do to start promoting on Amazon again is go to
this website: http:// skimlinks.com

Setting up an account is free. What Skimlinks does is they allow you to
use their affiliate links. Then instead of getting paid by Amazon directly,
Skimlinks will pay you instead.

The only catch is they do take a commission. Hope this helps
some of you alleviate the blow of having your accounts suspended.

[ 1 ] Thanks
2 replies

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dunkinbbb

14 years ago

Originally Posted by davidjames42973

This really is crummy, but most of us saw it coming from a mile away.

One thing you can do to start promoting on Amazon again is go to
this website: http:// skimlinks.com

Setting up an account is free. What Skimlinks does is they allow you to
use their affiliate links. Then instead of getting paid by Amazon directly,
Skimlinks will pay you instead.

The only catch is they do take a commission. Hope this helps
some of you alleviate the blow of having your accounts suspended.

Now that sounds like a genius business model

Talk about having customers hungry and in pain.

[ 1 ] Thanks

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SeoVancouverWa

14 years ago

Unless someone wants the product NOW, Amazon has an advantage when they do NOT have to charge sales tax and local stores do! That cannot even be argued!

If Amazon cared so much about its affiliates it would charge the tax! It cost them NOTHING to charge the tax and then remit that to the state of California. Some of you just do not get it!!!!

One final example because arguing this point doesn't seem worth much more of my time.

Let's say a person buys a product from Amazon for $200, they pay $200 plus some shipping. But in many cases you can get FREE shipping.

The store in California that charges $200 for the SAME product must charge the client $218 (roughly 9% sales tax). So who do you think has the advantage if the customer does NOT want the product right now?

Of course Amazon does!!! Amazon could EASILY charge the tax but instead they choose to dump 10,000 affiliates!! Does this sound like they are protecting their affiliates? Come on man!

But they mention in their letter that you can still buy products from Amazon if you live in California! LMAO. Are you serious Amazon? You just dump your affiliates, some of them making a lot of money, and you make sure you let them know they can still buy products from you.

If some of you do not get it...you never will.

Did California make a mistake in the big picture? Most likely yes. But Amazon is acting like a spoiled brat.

Thanks
4 replies

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whynes

14 years ago

Originally Posted by SeoVancouverWa

If Amazon cared so much about its affiliates it would charge the tax! It cost them NOTHING to charge the tax and then remit that to the state of California. Some of you just do not get it!!!!

I see your point. I just disagree with it. It isn't an issue of getting it.

Here's what I do get:

1) The constitution reserves regulation of interstate commerce to the
federal government, not to California.

2) Nowhere in Amazon's affiliate agreement did they promise to care
about me. It was a business arrangement, not a relationship.

3) Your points about 'fairness', whether refutable or not, won't grant
California authority reserved for the feds, nor will it make Amazon care
about me. And it absolutely won't fix what's wrong with California.

4) Sacramento has crafted a legal noose around a segment of their
own populace to create a legal fiction they can use to politicize
and justify their efforts to usurp the constitution.

If I'm to be sacrificed, I'd prefer it not be for a perversion of the
constitution. I do not look to Amazon to save me from injustice,
nor do I blame them if they don't.

I am more concerned about the lack of care I'm receiving from
the California government who is, in theory, supposed to be
acting in the best interest of those who elected them. Not
making ideological points at the cost of their own citizens'
livelihood.

California's predation of its own citizens to make an ideological
point is far more worrisome to me.

[ 5 ] Thanks

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Tenzo

14 years ago

Originally Posted by SeoVancouverWa

Did California make a mistake in the big picture? Most likely yes. But Amazon is acting like a spoiled brat.

I personally think that Amazon is doing the right thing. But the reality is that it doesn't matter. No matter who is to blame, the situation stands the way it stands. You can rant and rave and argue with everyone about it, or you can adapt and move on.

Thanks
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thriftgirl62

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Page-One

As a major Amazon guy, Dan, you aren't sounding very optimistic...and maybe you're not. But if you have any thoughts on Amazon alternatives, I for one would be interested. Clickbank? CPA? Adsense? Other retailer affiliates? Online/Offline? Facebook? Kindle ebooks?

Remove Amazon from the picture, and I.M. options aren't gone, but it does leave a big hole!

Just partner up with someone else in another State and be ready to move again until you run out of all 50 States. You can still show the ads on your site, can't you? Does it matter if the Associates ID is from another state?

Yes! Thanks for a great Idea! I just have to find that complete all encompassing list of Vendors with unadvertised affiliate programs and high ticket physical products like this: www.productionflyingcar.com

Thanks

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newimguy

14 years ago

Originally Posted by SeoVancouverWa

Unless someone wants the product NOW, Amazon has an advantage when they do NOT have to charge sales tax and local stores do! That cannot even be argued!

I think more people want the product now then want to wait. Walmart made $408 billion in 2010 compared to Amazon's $34 billion. In 2010, Walmart brought in about 12 times Amazon's revenue.

Originally Posted by SeoVancouverWa

Of course Amazon does!!! Amazon could EASILY charge the tax but instead they choose to dump 10,000 affiliates!! Does this sound like they are protecting their affiliates? Come on man!!

Here why Amazon's Ceo Bezos says amazon shouldn't collect state taxes: DailyTech - Amazon CEO Calls State Tax Demands Unconstitutional

I agree sometimes business is cruel. I think that when they crunched the numbers it would be more profitable to get rid of affiliates then keep them. Amazon doesn't care about you or me they care about being in business and maximizing profits. They are neither a good guy or a bad guy. They are doing what's in the best interest of the company.

The politicians are doing what's in the best interest of the lobbyists not the people. That's the difference.

Thanks

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SteveDolan

14 years ago

Originally Posted by SeoVancouverWa

Unless someone wants the product NOW, Amazon has an advantage when they do NOT have to charge sales tax and local stores do! That cannot even be argued!

If Amazon cared so much about its affiliates it would charge the tax! It cost them NOTHING to charge the tax and then remit that to the state of California. Some of you just do not get it!!!!

Not really. They are part of an alliance of online retailers trying to get this sorted out at the federal level - where it belongs. in CA there is no uniform tax - my city has a different tax rate to my county which is different to the state. 6 Mile up the road the next town has a totally different rate. There are over 15,000 sales taxing authorities across the 50 states all with their own rates/laws and rules. The system is unworkable so Amazon (and other affiliate programs) are terminating their contracts - perfectly legal.

The E-fair trade law just passed (as sponsored by Walmart) is not as the Supreme court ruled on interstate commerce in 1992.

Thanks

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anthony2

14 years ago

alot of those affiliates will be hurting....i bet for some of them that was there
only stream of income...i wouldn't doubt that amazon income paid for alot
of there house hold expenses.

thats why its so important to have multiple income streams....if one or two income
streams go down then you still have 8,9, 10 more income streams.

Thanks

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mkpoway

14 years ago

Does Amazon still allow affiliates in New York state?

Thanks

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EvolBaby

14 years ago

Lots of people are now finding out about this issue. The shockwave has people scrambling to either comply with the procedures.

They have to do something as Summer just started. Many were selling Summer related goods. Now they're sooooo screwed.

I've been up all day getting emails and calls for help. I just send them to the lawyers I mentioned earlier. That's all you can do is get professional legal advice and take the next step.

I am sooooo glad I stayed away from Amazon but friends of mine who own monster sized sites with 100s of thousands of pages with Amazon links on them now have to pay extra to get those pages optimized without the Amazon links. Four of these sites are some of the top Amazon affiliates in the world. It sucks but yo, this is business.

Thanks

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Sonomacats

14 years ago

By the way, if you don't have a friend who will take your mail for you in a non-nexus tax state, a good state to get a private mailbox rental is Oregon. Oregon has no sales tax, so it won't go the way of California. I just did some checking and there are a ton of mailbox rental places in Oregon.

Most of the ones I've looked at require you to go in in person. Postal Annex has a lot of branches, but require you to bring your information and the signed Postal form in there in person. However, Oregon isn't that far and it could be done in no time at all.

If they want to know why you want a box in Oregon, just tell them something like you're working on a long-term contract in the area and need to get your mail there. Or that you're in the middle of moving to the area. It's not that hard.

Google "mailbox rental" and see what shows up. There are some that will let you do it online and some that won't. But there are a ton of states that aren't on the Amazon hit list, so you're bound to find something that works.

Just stay away from Nevada for now and New Mexico. It looks like both are considering passing the nexus tax law there. Oregon has the benefit of not having sales tax, so there's no worries there.

Once you have the address, change it in Amazon and you're done.

But, whatever you do, don't just lie down and let your income vanish.

Thanks
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davidjames42973

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Sonomacats

By the way, if you don't have a friend who will take your mail for you in a non-nexus tax state, a good state to get a private mailbox rental is Oregon. Oregon has no sales tax, so it won't go the way of California. I just did some checking and there are a ton of mailbox rental places in Oregon.

Most of the ones I've looked at require you to go in in person. Postal Annex has a lot of branches, but require you to bring your information and the signed Postal form in there in person. However, Oregon isn't that far and it could be done in no time at all.

If they want to know why you want a box in Oregon, just tell them something like you're working on a long-term contract in the area and need to get your mail there. Or that you're in the middle of moving to the area. It's not that hard.

Google "mailbox rental" and see what shows up. There are some that will let you do it online and some that won't. But there are a ton of states that aren't on the Amazon hit list, so you're bound to find something that works.

Just stay away from Nevada for now and New Mexico. It looks like both are considering passing the nexus tax law there. Oregon has the benefit of not having sales tax, so there's no worries there.

Once you have the address, change it in Amazon and you're done.

But, whatever you do, don't just lie down and let your income vanish.

Great idea, but unfortunately it won't work. After 9/11 they will not allow you to open a PO Box in another state without showing proof that you live there...

Thanks
2 replies

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kindsvater

14 years ago

Originally Posted by davidjames42973

Great idea, but unfortunately it won't work. After 9/11 they will not allow you to open a PO Box in another state without showing proof that you live there...

Whether a box or a mail forwarding service as was discussed in the post, there is no in-state residency requirement I am aware of. And I have multiple addresses and companies in various places.

You might be thinking of identity requirements and proving your physical address. But your physical address does not need to be in the same state.

Mail forwarding services, virtual offices, etc., would likely not not exist if this was the rule.

.

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davidjames42973

14 years ago

Originally Posted by kindsvater

Whether a box or a mail forwarding service as was discussed in the post, there is no in-state residency requirement I am aware of. And I have multiple addresses and companies in various places.

You might be thinking of identity requirements and proving your physical address. But your physical address does not need to be in the same state.

Mail forwarding services, virtual offices, etc., would likely not not exist if this was the rule.

.

Great point indeed.

Virtual offices are OK, because you can show some sort of residency (utility bills, proof of renting the place, etc.) I've been told that it doesn't work for PO Boxes though...

Thanks

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Sonomacats

14 years ago

Originally Posted by davidjames42973

Great idea, but unfortunately it won't work. After 9/11 they will not allow you to open a PO Box in another state without showing proof that you live there...

Not true. I've done it each time I moved.

But in this instance I'm not talking about a PO Box. I'm talking about renting a private mailbox so that you get a real street address. It doesn't matter what state you live in as long as you give them correct information. They make you download a Postal Form that has to be notarized. Once that's done and you've faxed them your ID, you're good to go.

Just do a search on "Mailbox Rental" and you'll see. Here are 3 good ones:

Michigan - https://www.mailboxforwarding.com/ (This one also includes Resident Agent service for no extra charge)

Oregon - Mailbox and Mail Forwarding Services Grants Pass, Oregon

Las Vegas - $10 Mailbox Rentals, Mail Forwarding, FREE Resident Agent, Notary - Las Vegas NV

You can always say you're a full time RVer if they ask. But they generally don't.

You can also say you're in the middle of moving to the area. Or that you're a contractor and have a long-term gig in the area.

As long as your information is correct and you got the form notarized, you're fine.

It's really quite easy.

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Cam Connor

14 years ago

Originally Posted by MatthewNeer

UPDATE: Just got another email from Amazon about 15 hours ago now and it appears that the bill has been passed into law... Sorry Amazon peeps

Here's the exact email I got from Amazon...

"Hello,

Unfortunately, Governor Brown has signed into law the bill that we emailed you about earlier today. As a result of this, contracts with all California residents participating in the Amazon Associates Program are terminated effective today, June 29, 2011. Those California residents will no longer receive advertising fees for sales referred to Amazon.com, Endless.com, MYHABIT.COM or SmallParts.com. Please be assured that all qualifying advertising fees earned before today will be processed and paid in full in accordance with the regular payment schedule.

You are receiving this email because our records indicate that you are a resident of California. If you are not currently a resident of California, or if you are relocating to another state in the near future, you can manage the details of your Associates account here. And if you relocate to another state in the near future please contact us for reinstatement into the Amazon Associates Program.

To avoid confusion, we would like to clarify that this development will only impact our ability to offer the Associates Program to California residents and will not affect your ability to purchase from Amazon.com, Endless.com, MYHABIT.COM or SmallParts.com.

We have enjoyed working with you and other California-based participants in the Amazon Associates Program and, if this situation is rectified, would very much welcome the opportunity to re-open our Associates Program to California residents. As mentioned before, we are continuing to work on alternative ways to help California residents monetize their websites and we will be sure to contact you when these become available.

Regards,
The Amazon Associates Team"

Just got an email from Amazon guys, and this could be detrimental to anyone that lives in California who makes a living off of selling Amazon products.

Here is EXACTLY what the email said...

"Hello,

For well over a decade, the Amazon Associates Program has worked with thousands of California residents. Unfortunately, a potential new law that may be signed by Governor Brown compels us to terminate this program for California-based participants. It specifically imposes the collection of taxes from consumers on sales by online retailers - including but not limited to those referred by California-based marketing affiliates like you - even if those retailers have no physical presence in the state.

We oppose this bill because it is unconstitutional and counterproductive. It is supported by big-box retailers, most of which are based outside California, that seek to harm the affiliate advertising programs of their competitors. Similar legislation in other states has led to job and income losses, and little, if any, new tax revenue. We deeply regret that we must take this action.

As a result, we will terminate contracts with all California residents that are participants in the Amazon Associates Program as of the date (if any) that the California law becomes effective. We will send a follow-up notice to you confirming the termination date if the California law is enacted. In the event that the California law does not become effective before September 30, 2011, we withdraw this notice. As of the termination date, California residents will no longer receive advertising fees for sales referred to Amazon.com, Endless.com, MYHABIT.COM or SmallParts.com. Please be assured that all qualifying advertising fees earned on or before the termination date will be processed and paid in full in accordance with the regular payment schedule.

You are receiving this email because our records indicate that you are a resident of California. If you are not currently a resident of California, or if you are relocating to another state in the near future, you can manage the details of your Associates account here. And if you relocate to another state in the near future please contact us for reinstatement into the Amazon Associates Program.

To avoid confusion, we would like to clarify that this development will only impact our ability to offer the Associates Program to California residents and will not affect their ability to purchase from Amazon.com, Endless.com, MYHABIT.COM or SmallParts.com.

We have enjoyed working with you and other California-based participants in the Amazon Associates Program and, if this situation is rectified, would very much welcome the opportunity to re-open our Associates Program to California residents. We are also working on alternative ways to help California residents monetize their websites and we will be sure to contact you when these become available.

Regards,
The Amazon Associates Team"

Hope this shed some light on the recent conversations going on throughout this forum and exactly what Amazon is planning on doing once this law is passed.

We all wish that it does not pass, but hey, thats politics...

Your thoughts?

Maybe if your in Cali you can incorporate in another state, and then work through your business with Amazon, if your currently working as a DBA or Sole Proprietor

Thanks
1 reply

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davidjames42973

14 years ago

I spoke with a person who had their account terminated due to the Nexus Law back in 2010, she said that she now uses her Mom's home address.

If you have any family/friends in a state that hasn't been affected, this should work.

Thanks
2 replies

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davidjames42973 14 years ago

When this happened in the state of Colorado last year I called Amazon directly and asked them some questions.

This is how the conversation went down:

Amazon: Hello thank you for calling the Amazon Associate Center. My name is ____ how
may I assist your call?
David: Hi I'm calling about the Amazon Nexus Tax that affected everybody in the state of
Colorado. I had a question about how to get an account reinstated.

Amazon: First off, let me ask you what state are you in?

David: I'm in California and my account is still in good standing, but you never know
what might happen once California passes their own Nexus Law which they're currently
working on. (this conversation happened in 2010 by the way)

Amazon: Yes...

David: Let's say that I lived in Colorado and my account was terminated because of the
Nexus Tax Law, would I be able to have my account reactivated if I had a new address in
another state that isn't affected by this?

Amazon: Yes it would be reactivated.

David: OK, let's just say that I still lived in Colorado but I got a P.O. Box in another
state, plus got a new phone number in that state and added this information to my
account to have it reactivated would I have any problems.

Amazon: As long as it appears that you reside in this address you shouldn't have any
problems. But what Amazon MAY do (the word "may" was stressed in the call) is ask for
proof that you are actually at this address by asking for some sort of bill.

David: OK. That's all I wanted to know. Thank you for your time.

Amazon: Was there anything else I could help you out with today?

David: Nope. You gave me all of the answers I needed.

Amazon: I sure appreciate your call and ......................(you get the point)
- Thanks
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whynes

14 years ago

Originally Posted by davidjames42973

I spoke with a person who had their account terminated due to the Nexus Law back in 2010, she said that she now uses her Mom's home address.

If you have any family/friends in a state that hasn't been affected, this should work.

I'm pretty sure I could work around amazon's restrictions. What I'm
less sure of, since this morning, is what my liability would become
for whatever California cannot collect from Amazon.

It's not as if California would have to come get me, if you know what I
mean. And it's not as if I won't have to document for them whatever
evidence they'll need next April, tax-time.

I still have an appointment with a CPA next week. I have no doubt I
could form an LLC somewhere. What I don't know is what my legal
and financial risks are if Cali tries to get to Amazon by going through
my spleen again. The law is so new, likely no one does.

I've already heard that from one CPA today already. He refused
a fee-for-service consultation because of it.

Thanks

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socialbuzz7

14 years ago

That has something to do with the state taxes or something like that right?

Thanks

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EvolBaby

14 years ago

Look, let's not mince words as to why states like California and New York do things like this. It's because both states have large populations and a criminal infrastructure so immense that it would take an act of God to get through it all.

Actually, having lived in California now for 12 years I can say I've never seen a state with such blatant negligence considering it's geographical size, and population.

It has criminals from one end of the state to the other. Gangs that number in the 100s of thousands. A prison population that is #1 in the US and probably ranks in the top ten of the world.

Governors, senators, public officials busted left and right, not by law enforcement but by squealers and diligent online detectives.

It has illegal immigrants numbering in the millions.

California isn't money broke, it's ethically broke. It's been that way for decades on end.

Now the chickens have come home to roost and the honest hard working bloke is made to suffer because their the path of least resistance.

The same goes for our federal government. So permeated with criminals domestic and foreign that it fails to protect and serve and to remedy the situation it leans on the middle class.

Amazon knows a scam when it sees one and got out of Dodge.

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Sonomacats

14 years ago

Originally Posted by EvolBaby

Look, let's not mince words as to why states like California and New York do things like this. It's because both states have large populations and a criminal infrastructure so immense that it would take an act of God to get through it all.

Actually, having lived in California now for 12 years I can say I've never seen a state with such blatant negligence considering it's geographical size, and population.

It has criminals from one end of the state to the other. Gangs that number in the 100s of thousands. A prison population that is #1 in the US and probably ranks in the top ten of the world.

Governors, senators, public officials busted left and right, not by law enforcement but by squealers and diligent online detectives.

It has illegal immigrants numbering in the millions.

California isn't money broke, it's ethically broke. It's been that way for decades on end.

Now the chickens have come home to roost and the honest hard working bloke is made to suffer because their the path of least resistance.

The same goes for our federal government. So permeated with criminals domestic and foreign that it fails to protect and serve and to remedy the situation it leans on the middle class.

Amazon knows a scam when it sees one and got out of Dodge.

Well said. Another good reason to move on.

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DallasK

14 years ago

I might have the record for the shortest term of holding an Amazon affiliate account. I completely forgot about all this was going on as I was buried in educating myself. I applied for an Amazon affiliate account on 6/28, got the preliminary notice around noon of of 6/29, then the final termination notice in the evening of 6/29. In just over 24 hours, accepted in, then tossed out. That's just wonderful...!!! Thanks Gov. Moonbeam.

Originally Posted by EvolBaby

California isn't money broke, it's ethically broke. It's been that way for decades on end.

There is it summed up, our elected leaders and their crony's are ethically broke and continue to pass laws that affect everyone but them. They don't live by the rules they impose upon the citizens. And all of that has led to Cali being fiscally broke so their only option is to suck more revenue from the citizens.

I don't want to turn this political and violate the forum rules, but know who your representatives are, how they plan to vote, how they voted, and tell them when you don't like it. If you're so inclined then tell them you're going to support absolutely anyone running against them in the next election. Then tell whoever it is that's getting your vote that if they violate the trust you're putting in them, they'll be gone after one term.

Attack the problem the same way you would if you had multiple debts to get out from under, one at a time. In the same way, start at your local level and concentrate on the politicians & officials that affect your community, one at a time.

So it's back to planning and hoping that my next affiliate attempt will last longer than 1 day.

Thanks to everyone who contributed to the conversation...

Dallas K.
San Diego, CA

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David McKee

14 years ago

Originally Posted by DallasK

... They don't live by the rules they impose upon the citizens. And all of that has led to Cali being fiscally broke so their only option is to suck more revenue from the citizens....

Dallas K.
San Diego, CA

And that is why a whole bunch of tea ended up in Boston Bay... And I believe it's way past time that these modern day "mafia" collectors get thrown into a bay...any bay will do, or perhaps an old well, but I digress...

The plain fact is all of us who want to experience the capitalist dream of creating our own way are being driven into an underground economy where what we do is considered morally, ethically, and legally wrong (their standards) and we need to stand up and proudly say NO! in their faces. It's about time we started doing the things our forefathers did, because the redcoats are here and they are our politicians.

As they say, BS comes in red and blue now...

-DTM

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dunkinbbb

14 years ago

Originally Posted by David McKee

And that is why a whole bunch of tea ended up in Boston Bay... And I believe it's way past time that these modern day "mafia" collectors get thrown into a bay...any bay will do, or perhaps an old well, but I digress...

The plain fact is all of us who want to experience the capitalist dream of creating our own way are being driven into an underground economy where what we do is considered morally, ethically, and legally wrong (their standards) and we need to stand up and proudly say NO! in their faces. It's about time we started doing the things our forefathers did, because the redcoats are here and they are our politicians.

As they say, BS comes in red and blue now...

-DTM

Can you say "Ayn Rand?

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grannydude

14 years ago

Originally Posted by DallasK

I might have the record for the shortest term of holding an Amazon affiliate account. I completely forgot about all this was going on as I was buried in educating myself. I applied for an Amazon affiliate account on 6/28, got the preliminary notice around noon of of 6/29, then the final termination notice in the evening of 6/29. In just over 24 hours, accepted in, then tossed out. That's just wonderful...!!! Thanks Gov. Moonbeam.

There is it summed up, our elected leaders and their crony's are ethically broke and continue to pass laws that affect everyone but them. They don't live by the rules they impose upon the citizens. And all of that has led to Cali being fiscally broke so their only option is to suck more revenue from the citizens.

I don't want to turn this political and violate the forum rules, but know who your representatives are, how they plan to vote, how they voted, and tell them when you don't like it. If you're so inclined then tell them you're going to support absolutely anyone running against them in the next election. Then tell whoever it is that's getting your vote that if they violate the trust you're putting in them, they'll be gone after one term.

Attack the problem the same way you would if you had multiple debts to get out from under, one at a time. In the same way, start at your local level and concentrate on the politicians & officials that affect your community, one at a time.

So it's back to planning and hoping that my next affiliate attempt will last longer than 1 day.

Thanks to everyone who contributed to the conversation...

Dallas K.
San Diego, CA

Bad me; I am violating rules but I had to rant at least once; I am very very angryl I had great hope for working as an Amazon Associate.

My representative is Wally Herger and writing to him does no good at all. He is entrenched as most politicians are.

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IMWinner

14 years ago

The governments are closing in on online platforms to be able to control them. This are changing trends we need to be watchful about if we have to stay afloat. Be sensitive and informed as many players are coming in to have a piece of the cake.

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Sonomacats

14 years ago

Greed is definitely a big part of the problem.

However, I think it's the lack of understanding and empathy that makes everything worse. The people in the legislature who passed the "Amazon tax" didn't stop to truly look at the situation and consider the ramifications to either the state or the affiliates it would damage. They didn't care enough to bother because they felt no connection to anyone who actually has to live in the real world and deal with the fallout of the legislature.

I don't think they even took the time to ask what would really make sense for the state and the people of the state.

The only blessing here is that it is an excellent warning to affiliates who are in other states that are creeping up to the chopping block. If you're going to change your residence address to avoid the problem, don't pick Nevada or New Mexico until you know for sure they aren't going to pass this monstrosity.

Change to a state that doesn't have sales tax or isn't considering a nexus tax bill. Yes, the Supreme Court will probably eventually declare the tax unconstitutional, but that will take years.

Until then, put things in place so you don't get screwed. Set up an address in a safe state like Oregon or Wyoming. Put some time into thinking about what could happen in the future so your business doesn't get wiped out over night. Participate in education campaigns to your state legislature so they don't follow the California example.

If you don't live in California, the worst thing you can do is moan and wring your hands and pray it doesn't happen to you. Because it might.

Take action to protect your business.

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derekwong28

14 years ago

I don't understand the logic at all. Why does Amazon has to terminate affiliates from California if it has to pay taxes from buyers in California?

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whynes 14 years ago

Originally Posted by derekwong28

I don't understand the logic at all. Why does Amazon has to terminate affiliates from California if it has to pay taxes from buyers in California?

That's the whole point. Amazon doesn't have to pay taxes (or collect them)
for buyers in California. No legal authority with any jurisdiction over Amazon
has passed such a law.

It's the same reason you obey the traffic laws in the state you live in,
not the traffic law in the state next to you.

If the state next to you passes a law that says you have to drive a different
way in your own state, you will ignore them because they have no jurisdiction
in your state. Besides, it would be very dangerous to your health; driving
differently in your own state than every one else there is driving.

If Amazon continues affiliate arrangements with California associates
they would be subject to California laws. California has made it impossible
for Amazon to support California associates without granting California
legal dominion over Amazon.

In short, California is using their own citizens as a weapon against Amazon.

This action is detrimental to the unfortunate California citizens who
don't wish to be a used as a weapon of state policy.

You can count me among them.
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Enis

14 years ago

This sucks. I hear some IMers might even be moving away from california for business in a more tax friendly place but it's still a nice state.

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whynes 14 years ago

Originally Posted by Enis

This sucks. I hear some IMers might even be moving away from california for business in a more tax friendly place but it's still a nice state.

Yep. I think we can all agree. It sucks all around.

As one other poster stated, "it is what it is, deal with it and adjust."

Today is my 'pity-me-day'. Tomorrow I will follow his sage advise.
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CopyAcolyte

14 years ago

As a CA resident, I was just about to start amazon affiliate marketing! This is terrible news.

Can someone recommend other merchants to work with instead? Is affiliate marketing dead for California residents?

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Sumit

14 years ago

Well this is quite an OUCH for those californian making money from amazon

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Conrad Stuart

14 years ago

This does suck, but almost every good physical product niche out there has great independently run affiliate programs to take advantage of.

Sure, it's a little more work and a few more programs to manage, but most of them have higher commissions and longer cookies, so it makes up for it. Most affiliates who lost income from this should be able to replace it with another aff program.

I am promoting a company that sells physical products in a weird niche right now paying me 20% commissions with a LIFETIME cookie. There are some gems out there, just gotta find 'em!

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RichWill

14 years ago

Big Brother is at work again. If you can make a little money to supplement your hard work, we, the government must tax it. The State of California needs the money so why not help them. I don't want Disneyland to close.

I am being facetious.......lol Don't hate me cause I'm beautiful

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Mark Kostic

14 years ago

I'm sure you guys will find a way out of it again. You can probably sign up using information from another state, like a friend, relative, business partner etc.

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zortag

14 years ago

OK let me try to summarize the possible solutions to the CA Amazon problem. Let me start by saying that I don't earn much from my Amazon affiliate account, but after reading lots of posts on this and other forums, it seems to me that a good solution for many people is to just switch to skimlinks.com. Several months ago Illinois faced the same problem Californians are now facing, and one IL blogger wrote about his switch to SkimLinks: How Illinois Bloggers Can Still Make Revenue From Recommending Products on Amazon | 404 Tech Support
I haven't signed up myself, so I have no first hand knowledge, but it looks like a pretty quick and easy solution to the problem. Yes SkimLinks takes 25% revshare but they get higher revshare rates from the merchants, so it may at least come close to evening out.

So, it looks like CA residents have these solutions:
1. Move out of state. Very costly, big hassle, worse weather
2. Use an out-of-state address to sign up again to Amazon. Problem: not everyone has a brother/sister/father/friend out of state who is willing to pretend you live there to fool Amazon.
3. Set up an LLC in another state like Delaware and get an Amazon acct that way. This will work but there are several expenses. First you need to pay the fees to DE (or whatever other state) to set up the LLC. You may also have to pay monthly fees to get a mailing address in that state, and you'll probably have to put some money in a bank account in that state. Next, to legally operate from your CA residence, you will still need to register that other state LLC as a "foreign business entity" in CA, so you'll need to pay the state of CA $800 a year to do that. So with this approach, you'll need to pay $1K-$2K in annual LLC fees to various states and say $50-$200 monthly fees to maintain an address and/or mailing address in the other state. If you have big Amazon earnings, you might be able to justify this.
4. The easiest option is SkimLinks - no costs and no hassle, just a reduced revshare on your sales.

I'm not a lawyer, this is not legal advice, and I have no relationship with SkimLinks nor have I ever used them personally. I'm just trying to summarize what seem to me to be the possible approaches to getting around the problem. The bottom line though is that there is no need for panic and no need to suddenly sell off all your Amazon sites. One of the solutions above should work out fine most people. Just my 2 cents.

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Sonomacats

14 years ago

Originally Posted by zortag

So, it looks like CA residents have these solutions:
1. Move out of state. Very costly, big hassle, worse weather
2. Use an out-of-state address to sign up again to Amazon. Problem: not everyone has a brother/sister/father/friend out of state who is willing to pretend you live there to fool Amazon.
3. Set up an LLC in another state like Delaware and get an Amazon acct that way. This will work but there are several expenses. First you need to pay the fees to DE (or whatever other state) to set up the LLC. You may also have to pay monthly fees to get a mailing address in that state, and you'll probably have to put some money in a bank account in that state. Next, to legally operate from your CA residence, you will still need to register that other state LLC as a "foreign business entity" in CA, so you'll need to pay the state of CA $800 a year to do that. So with this approach, you'll need to pay $1K-$2K in annual LLC fees to various states and say $50-$200 monthly fees to maintain an address and/or mailing address in the other state. If you have big Amazon earnings, you might be able to justify this.
4. The easiest option is SkimLinks - no costs and no hassle, just a reduced revshare on your sales.

You left out the good one:

Rent a private mailbox with a street address in a no sales tax state like Oregon and set that up as your address.

You don't have to do an LLC, and you don't have to change your bank.

In most cases, you can do it online so it only costs the price of a notary and the box.

See one of my previous posts for 3 of them. And there are tons more.

You don't have to give up your work or your income!

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Writing as Kieran McKendrick
You can find the first prequel to my Purgatory series (How Blended are Dust and Fire) on Amazon and Smashwords.

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Sonomacats

14 years ago

By the way, here's an article from the Orange County Register that says is really well:

Editorial: ‘Amazon tax’ wrong, counterproductive | california, tax, state - Opinion - The Orange County Register

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Writing as Kieran McKendrick
You can find the first prequel to my Purgatory series (How Blended are Dust and Fire) on Amazon and Smashwords.

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grannydude

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Sonomacats

By the way, here's an article from the Orange County Register that says is really well:

Editorial: ‘Amazon tax’ wrong, counterproductive | california, tax, state - Opinion - The Orange County Register

What is an ASIN? Also the article in the Orange County newspaper is very good.
grannydude

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Sonomacats 14 years ago

Originally Posted by grannydude

What is an ASIN? Also the article in the Orange County newspaper is very good.

Every book published has a unique ISBN.

An ASIN is Amazon's version of an ISBN - but covers everything, not just books.
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CopyAcolyte

14 years ago

Can someone please recommended a viable alternate physical product merchant for a Californian affiliate just starting out?

I was banking on Amazon but now that's out of the question..

Thank you.

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myob

14 years ago

Several large affiliate companies are aggressively wooing Amazon affiliates in California and other nexus states. Some of the most prominent are Walmart, Best Buy, Barnes & Noble, Target, etc. But the commissions and conversion are very low. There are alternatives for selling within the far more superior Amazon Associates program as discussed in this thread and others.

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CopyAcolyte

14 years ago

Originally Posted by myob

Several large affiliate companies are aggressively wooing Amazon affiliates in California and other nexus states. Some of the most prominent are Walmart, Best Buy, Barnes & Noble, Target, etc. But the commissions and conversion are very low. There are alternatives for selling within the far more superior Amazon Associates program as discussed in this thread and others.

Just to clarify; what do you mean by "alternatives for selling within the far more superior amazon associate program"?

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teewhyare

14 years ago

Originally Posted by myob

Several large affiliate companies are aggressively wooing Amazon affiliates in California and other nexus states. Some of the most prominent are Walmart, Best Buy, Barnes & Noble, Target, etc. But the commissions and conversion are very low. There are alternatives for selling within the far more superior Amazon Associates program as discussed in this thread and others.

What's funny about this is that Wal-Mart, Target, Best Buy, Home Depot, Barnes & Noble, and Sears are the ones behind the lobbying group who is pushing hardest for these laws in various states. I love these big corporations masquerading as "main street" when most small "main street" businesses completely hate walmart and everything it stands for

Right now they have their sites on Nevada, South Dakota, and Tennessee.

For everyone saying Amazon doesn't have to pay the tax now that they've dropped its CA Affiliates, this is incorrect, according to most news reports. Here is the bill in full: leginfo.ca.gov /pub/11-12/bill/asm/ab_0001-0050/abx1_28_bill_20110629_chaptered .html (ABX1 28) <-- I don't have enough posts to post a link so copy/paste and close the gaps

(1) Any retailer maintaining, occupying, or using, permanently or
temporarily, directly or indirectly, or through a subsidiary, or
agent, by whatever name called, an office, place of distribution,
sales or sample room or place, warehouse or storage place, or other
place of business.

Amazon owns Lab126, A9, A2Z, and Zme Inc and through these companies, California is looking to set some sort of a precedent and force Amazon.com to pay sales tax.

Affiliates are in part 2 and we are the easiest targets because we are the easiest to let go. The subsidiaries aren't as immediately expendable.

(2) Any retailer having any representative, agent, salesperson,
canvasser, independent contractor, or solicitor operating in this
state under the authority of the retailer or its subsidiary for the
purpose of selling, delivering, installing, assembling, or the taking
of orders for any tangible personal property.

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whynes

14 years ago

Originally Posted by teewhyare

For everyone saying Amazon doesn't have to pay the tax now that they've dropped its CA Affiliates, this is incorrect, according to most news reports.

Thank you for exposing Walmart's (and others) participation in this fraud
against the American public.

You are, however, incorrect when you suggest Amazon "has to pay the
tax." Amazon is only bound by this stupid law if they continue
supporting California associates, which they haven't done. Now it
should be apparent why they cant do that, and still stay in business.

Just because a state like California passes an unconstitutional law does
not make it enforceable. And it doesn't make it right.

The victims of this law are California citizens who have lost their income,
and other Californians who now have to pay unemployment compensation
for those who've lost their jobs.

Walmart will now happily pay you 1% commission for book sales you
were making through Amazon.

Please do not support Walmart and their corrupt politicians in Sacramento
in their quest to impoverish all Americans. Walmart hired Sacramento to
do with law what they could not accomplish by competing in a free market.

The goal is accomplished. Work for Walmart, or don't work.

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teewhyare

14 years ago

Originally Posted by whynes

Thank you for exposing Walmart's (and others) participation in this fraud
against the American public.

You are, however, incorrect when you suggest Amazon "has to pay the
tax." Amazon is only bound by this stupid law if they continue
supporting California associates, which they haven't done. Now it
should be apparent why they cant do that, and still stay in business.

Just because a state like California passes an unconstitutional law does
not make it enforceable. And it doesn't make it right.

The victims of this law are California citizens who have lost their income,
and other Californians who now have to pay unemployment compensation
for those who've lost their jobs.

Walmart will now happily pay you 1% commission for book sales you
were making through Amazon.

Please do not support Walmart and their corrupt politicians in Sacramento
in their quest to impoverish all Americans. Walmart hired Sacramento to
do with law what they could not accomplish by competing in a free market.

The goal is accomplished. Work for Walmart, or don't work.

My source is the Wall Street Journal and while Amazon will no doubt fight the law, the Wall Street journal says:

The law could ensnare Amazon, forcing it to collect taxes on purchases by California residents because it has several offices in the state. The offices operate under a subsidiary, wholly owned by Amazon, called A2Z Development Centers Inc. The unit includes an office in Cupertino that develops the Kindle electronic reader, which is Amazon's best-selling product of all time. A2Z also has a San Francisco office, where employees develop Amazon's online music store, as well as locations in Orange County and San Luis Obispo.

Read more: online. wsj. com/article/SB10001424052702304450604576416191562187986. html#ixzz1R0g45anf

So, affiliates are just one piece of the puzzle.

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whynes 14 years ago

Originally Posted by teewhyare

So, affiliates are just one piece of the puzzle.

I didn't read it in the WSJ, but yeah, I saw that somewhere else on the web.
Having come from a corporate IT background, I'd be stunned if they weren't
furiously working to relocate/severe those ties even before this week's news
hit. Maybe not seriously working the issue, but serious contingency
plans, and/or outsourcing arrangements ready to be put into place
at the drop of a dime.

It wouldn't shock me a bit to learn that their entire supply chain is fleeing
California anyway. They might have had an advantage to move even
without the Nexus laws.
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zortag

14 years ago

CopyAcolyte: I think myob means that instead of abandoning Amazon, look into one of the alternatives discussed above for maintaining your Amazon account revenue. You can take Sonomacats' advice and rent a private mailbox with a street address in a state with no state income tax, like OR or DE. Apparently this is enough to get an Amazon Affiliates membership again with your out of state address. Just make sure that you declare any income from Amazon as CA income on your state taxes. It is one thing to game the system a bit to get into the Amazon program again. It is entirely different (and MUCH worse) to cheat the taxman. Don't do that!

I just Googled "rent private mailbox oregon" and made some calls. The cost for mailbox rental is around $170-$230/year. Then you probably need mail forwarding, which is about $10/month. You can open up a private mailbox over the phone, and all you need is 2 forms of ID notarized wherever you are. Yes you can use your CA ID to open an OR mailbox. The PMB stores only care that you are a real person and are who you say you are (thus the ID) - they don't care where your ID is from. Anyway this is one option although the up front costs may be high for someone starting out.

Or you can keep it even simpler and go with SkimLinks. This has no upfront costs, only a recurring revshare cost.

I think what folks are saying here is that you don't need to bail on Amazon if you live in CA! Just take a few more steps and you're back in business.

Again, just my 2 cents, not legal advice.

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myob 14 years ago

Originally Posted by CopyAcolyte

Just to clarify; what do you mean by "alternatives for selling within the far more superior amazon associate program"?

I have tested many of the other major affiliate programs, and IMO, there is just no comparison to the name recognition of Amazon and its powerful conversion system. There are many options available for Amazon affiliates in California and other nexus sales tax law states as suggested by zortag and many others. It is strongly encouraged to get professional legal counsel, however, before acting on any of these suggestions. For myself, I have formed an LLC in Delaware a few months ago. We all have been warned for at least two years that this hammer was coming down.
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- Frugal Jen 14 years ago
  
  Someone on here mentioned SkimLinks.com
  
  I did some research and looked up reviews and it seems to be a good option. Basically what the service does is allows you to use their affiliate links- you get 75% and they keep 25%- but that said they are probably getting a higher commission than you would because of volume. So in the end it could be as much as a wash.
  
  I went a head and signed up and am going to try it out- I really have very little to lose by doing it.
  
  It probably won't work for everyone, but it might for some.
  
  jen
  
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ddressel

14 years ago

I'm in CA and boy does this suck. I just got booted from another affiliate partnership with Frank Rumbauskas as well. Does anyone know if this new law applies to digital products as well or only to retailers that sell the physical goods? Is this going to affect Clickbank? What about webhosts like Host Gator and Bluehost?

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Deucedriver

14 years ago

Originally Posted by ddressel

I'm in CA and boy does this suck. I just got booted from another affiliate partnership with Frank Rumbauskas as well. Does anyone know if this new law applies to digital products as well or only to retailers that sell the physical goods? Is this going to affect Clickbank? What about webhosts like Host Gator and Bluehost?

Other than the programs mentioned in earlier posts with a physical presence already in CA (such as Barnes and Noble), due to the vague wording of the law I think all affiliate programs may be in jeopardy. Why would any affiliate company want to risk the state of California coming after them looking for tax receipts since a product was sold through the "nexus" of a California resident? My fear is that once the lawyers have time to review the law there may be a wholesale elimination of California based affiliates. I make a substantial income through E-bay and I'm taking steps to mitigate the loss of income I'll face when they finally pull the plug.

I've lived in California for over 15 years - first stationed here in the Air Force and then when I left active duty I stayed to finish my career in the Reserves. I've never seen a state so aggressive in their pursuit of taxes. My example would be my wife, who is a licensed nurse. She took over two years off when we had our first two children. The State Board of Nursing forwards a list of every licensed nurse to the state. We received a letter asking us where our tax money was since she was a licensed nurse. At the time I was on Active Duty and sent a letter explaining she hadn't worked in two years so she could stay home with our children while I was overseas - therefore she had no income. I think their response sums up the mentality of the state: ''We have received your letter and explanation. While it appears you owe no back taxes at this point, your case is not considered closed but suspended pending further investigation." That was 10 years ago - I guess my wife and I are still under "investigation."

Large businesses know the score in California and they won't stick around to fight with the lawyers, it won't be worth it.

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EvolBaby

14 years ago

This should be a lesson to all of you. Online businesses and models may seem rock solid but you have to prepare for the worse case scenario. You can't always trust that your fellow human being is going to be ethical, or in agreement, or even smart enough to make things go right.

If I recall there are programs that can replace your affiliate codes and links and do it in bulk. Other programs to handle large numbers of websites and blog pages too. That's why when writing a post to promote something you don't name the company where they can buy it, that way if the company goes kaput you don't have to change names.

Perhaps a "damage control" series of programs, utilities and drills are in order.

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ChickenMan

14 years ago

Oh man, this makes me glad that I live in a state that's highly conservative. I don't even live in California, yet it's making me pretty angry.

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whynes 14 years ago

Originally Posted by ChickenMan

Oh man, this makes me glad that I live in a state that's highly conservative. I don't even live in California, yet it's making me pretty angry.

California has the best government money can buy.
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Sonomacats

14 years ago

What's additionally upsetting is that they cut the sales tax and the vehicle registration tax at the same time, forcing cities to cut their police and fire departments.

And now all the affiliates have lost their income, so there will be no income tax on those individuals.

And the state is going to spend huge dollars trying to force Amazon to pay the tax, so there will be even fewer dollars in the coffers.

It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

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Tastybass

14 years ago

I think to me Skimlinks seems the fastest and easiest solution out of the gate. Never used them before. Never even heard of them but it seems to make sense as a quick fix. I can set up an account in another state. I have family all over the country but for now I will test Skimlinks.

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whynes

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Tastybass

I think to me Skimlinks seems the fastest and easiest solution out of the gate. Never used them before. Never even heard of them but it seems to make sense as a quick fix. I can set up an account in another state. I have family all over the country but for now I will test Skimlinks.

I applied for skimlinks yesterday. I'm so new at this, I haven't sold
anything yet, so my first sale would have been at Amazon's lowest
tier payout.

I might even make more starting out with skimlinks. I think with
the 25% cut it would only become comparatively less after a certain
volume. Wouldn't that be a problem I'd like to have?

By the way, if you're going with skimlinks I don't think you have to do
the out-of-state address thing. I'm not. Skimlinks ships no products
at all. Amazon does. So this stupid nexus law doesn't apply to them.
If skimlinks were headquartered in California, that would be a problem
(they'd be terminated too), but they are in the UK.

Guess we can all thank California for shipping even more business
out of the USA. That's 25% of revenue that will never be taxed
by any state, never taxed by the IRS. God save the queen, and all
that stuff, I guess. If we're not allowed to create jobs here, we might
as well create them in an ally's country.

Best of luck to you!

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whynes 14 years ago

Originally Posted by Sonomacats

And the state is going to spend huge dollars trying to force Amazon to pay the tax, so there will be even fewer dollars in the coffers.

Sacramento laid all of us in a bear-trap hoping to bag the giant.
The giant chose not to be bagged.

Amazon is in compliance with the law. Now that it has
terminated all of us associates, it has no 'presence', even as
defined by this moronic law, in California. There is nothing to
go after Amazon for now.

California will fight all the way up through the court system
until it gets to the supreme court, and it will lose. But until that
happens, this has the force of law--within the borders
of California.

And of course Sacramento will defend the law vigorously.
When you're spending other people's money you can blow it on
whatever frivolity you choose to.
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zortag

14 years ago

whynes - you're right. The whole point of using skimlinks is that you do not need to get any out-of-state address. It is open to California residents as-is with no change of address required.

You only need to get an out or state address if you want to work directly with Amazon.

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zortag

14 years ago

Sonomacats - Oregon has no sales tax so it is acceptable as an address for Amazon. However, Oregon does indeed have a state income tax. I'm not an accountant but I'm wondering if you would need to file state income taxes with Oregon if your Amazon account were located there? Does Amazon send 1099s or similar forms to the state of OR with your affiliate income on it?

It seems one would want a state with no state income tax, like NV or DE.

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whynes 14 years ago

Originally Posted by zortag

I'm not an accountant but I'm wondering if you would need to file state income taxes with Oregon if your Amazon account were located there?

Probably wouldn't hurt to check with a CPA to make sure California
won't want to tax it too.

We like taxing the same things two, three times, whenever we can.
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Sonomacats

14 years ago

Originally Posted by zortag

Sonomacats - Oregon has no sales tax so it is acceptable as an address for Amazon. However, Oregon does indeed have a state income tax. I'm not an accountant but I'm wondering if you would need to file state income taxes with Oregon if your Amazon account were located there? Does Amazon send 1099s or similar forms to the state of OR with your affiliate income on it?

It seems one would want a state with no state income tax, like NV or DE.

The problem with states like Nevada is that they do have a sales tax and apparently Nevada is also considering the nexus tax, so I didn't want to have to "move" over and over.

The reason I picked Oregon is that having a residence address there won't mess up my income (and it only took Amazon 1 day to reinstate me once I gave them my Oregon address).

Yes, I'll have to file income tax in Oregon as I will be acting as if I am a resident, but it's fairly reasonable. And, of course, it beats the heck out of losing my entire income stream.

If Nevada decides that the nexus tax isn't a good idea, after all, I may well transfer my address there and save even more money.

Here's a great website that has state tax information:

Taxes by State

My LLC is in New Mexico, but they are also considering the nexus tax, so I won't be "moving" there any time soon.

The nice thing is that you can live anywhere you want without being a resident of that state. Full time Rvers do it all the time.

As long as you pay income taxes in the state where you say you live (if they have any), then you're good.

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grannydude

14 years ago

Originally Posted by zortag

Sonomacats - Oregon has no sales tax so it is acceptable as an address for Amazon. However, Oregon does indeed have a state income tax. I'm not an accountant but I'm wondering if you would need to file state income taxes with Oregon if your Amazon account were located there? Does Amazon send 1099s or similar forms to the state of OR with your affiliate income on it?

It seems one would want a state with no state income tax, like NV or DE.

This might be an answer. I live in California, but used to live in Arizona. I get my pension from Arizona ( income from Arizona) so I have to pay income tax to Arizona; I also get income from California so I have to pay income tax to California. So I expect if you receive income from Oregon (from Amazon), you would have to pay income tax to Oregon on the income you receive from Oregon. Some states have some arrangements where you aren' double taxed, having to pay tax to both states on the same income. I don't know if Oregon would have that feature; fortunately California and, I think Arizona have that arrangement. The whole tax system s---s anyway.Hope this helps.
grannydude

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CopyAcolyte

14 years ago

I too am thinking about using skimlinks.com as a CA affiliate to keep working with Amazon.

I know I'll take a commission hit, but that's okay right now, as I'm just starting out.

Does anyone else recommend skimlinks.com?

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popopdc

14 years ago

Wow, Californian's gotta be pissed. This is really devastating news.

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PPC-Coach

14 years ago

This is a huge opportunity. Skimlinks is fine but 25% for what?

I've got an idea, but it'll take some coding...hmmmmm

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CFK

14 years ago

Prob will sound like a stupid question....but I have never done anything with Amazon and was wondering does this only effect those who refer sales to amazon through affiliate sales, driving traffic from their websites or does this also effect those selling dropshipped products/their own products on Amazon?
I have a friend selling products on amazon and doing very well, he said he didn't hear anything from amazon so didn't think this affected him

Anyone know? Thanks

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myob 14 years ago

Amazon has severed affiliate ties in eight states as they have enacted nexus tax laws. At least half a dozen other states have similar legislature pending. Usually the major Amazon players are incorporating as an LLC to protect their affiliate status. Other affiliate options have been discussed in this thread and others. As far as I know, this would not affect drop shipping, although in-state drop shippers are required to collect any sales tax due at the time of purchase. Amazon still does sell its full line of products in all states with or without affiliates.
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Sonomacats

14 years ago

It'll be interesting to see what happens next week.

My guess is that eventually the Supreme Court will decide California's actions are unconstitutional, but that is a long way off and people (and Amazon) still have to deal with what's going on right now.

It's possible Amazon will pull A2Z out of California rather than deal with a fight that will take years to wind its way through the courts. There's a huge new silicon valley near Portland, Oregon that's been growing like crazy because it's so much more business friendly up there. It wouldn't surprise me if Amazon moved A2Z and any other subsidiary they have up there rather than deal with California.

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NetAffiliate

14 years ago

Hmm, think it would be wise not to drag politics into this, even if the subject is political. No one wins when talking about who's better - Republicans, Democrats or Independence.

Everyone is passionate about their party sides and this can get ugly REALLY quick.

Just my 2 cents.

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PPC-Coach

14 years ago

Not to derail the politcal side of this discussion, but US affiliates can still promote amazon in any other country. I contacted them today and asked. They said it only affects affiliates using the amazon.com platform, not any of the others.

See this thread:

http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...t-dropped.html

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jan roos

14 years ago

Originally Posted by whynes

I think it might actually be a bit worse than that. Not only did most of
them get off scott-free, many are now highly paid consultants advising
the regulators now. They're the one's that created the mess, and they're
really the only ones who know what the mess is made of.

They were paid handsomely to make the mess, and now they're getting
paid quite well to help clean it up. Yeah, that's pretty scary too.

Scarier still . . . how many of those guys are going to have a full-time
career as a regulator in a few years from now?

What's happening now is just an act of desperation for CA and the other states to get some more tax money since they are broke. The federal government is broke as well. They are borrowing money just to pay the interest on the current debt which is around 14 trillion.

The government also makes it very hard for businesses to operate in this country. Huge fortune 500 companies already moved their businesses offshore and as a result this country is bleeding even more jobs and also these companies are keeping the fast majority of their profits offshore because they don't wAnt to bring the money back home because of the highest corporate tax rate in the world.

Unfortunately this is unsustainable for this country and bad things are on the horizon which is so sad to see happen to such a great country.

Cheers

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Blakers

14 years ago

This happened a couple months ago to Illinois where the large internet affiliate company of Fatwallet.com resides. If they stayed they would have lost 30% of their revenue. Low and behold, they packed up, went 5 miles north over the border into Wisconsin and set up shop there. Here's the story:

YouTube - ‪Moving Day: A FatWallet...

Wonder if Quinn expected that?

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slickback

14 years ago

Never made to much money with Amazon but I sure this will effect many.

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chuckwells

14 years ago

I think Amazon has less to lose than you might think by dumping 10,000 California affiliates. Unlike Clickbank they only pay out 4-8% commissions. If you do searches on Google for products, I have noticed direct Amazon listings appear near the top. Therefore they must be doing SEO efforts for direct sales. This weekend I have seen advertisements on television for the Kindle direct from Amazon.

I think they are using this action to move away from the affiliate marketing model. They will just dump affiliates from other states as they pass similar laws to make the transition more quickly to a direct marketing model.

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EvolBaby

14 years ago

Question, Amazon cut off you affiliates in California, but did they themselves stop selling from California?

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chuckwells

14 years ago

I suspect the Amazon California facilities still sell merchandise from California and pay California taxes like any other California company. They cut off the 10,000 affiliates to avoid paying California taxes on their sales. They are using this tax law to transform the affiliate business model to a direct sales model. I suspect they realize any California resident making significant income from Amazon will find a way to incorporate in another state.

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socialsite

14 years ago

That is another example why it pays to have multiple streams of income. I also learned that lesson the hard way years ago.

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mmoreal

14 years ago

It's a bad news that I live in California and I can't be affiliate of Amazon anymore

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whynes 14 years ago

Originally Posted by mmoreal

It's a bad news that I live in California and I can't be affiliate of Amazon anymore

I don't think you're seeing things clearly. Read my post, two above yours.
Then read my disclosure page. For brand new IMer's, this is better news
than dealing with Amazon directly. Would have been even without the
moronic nexus law.

The rest should be easy to figure out.

Hint: even though my website appears to be linking to Amazon, it isn't.
And I'll get 50% more for my first sale than I would have gotten from Amazon.

California gave me lemons. I'm drinking sweet lemonade right now
(soured a tad with just a touch of tequila).

God Save The Union!
God Save The Queen!
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Sonomacats 14 years ago

Originally Posted by mmoreal

It's a bad news that I live in California and I can't be affiliate of Amazon anymore

Wrong. Read the whole thread for how to do it.
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pcpupil

14 years ago

Well,tonight on 2 of my local news channels,Amazon announced they are going to build a very large shipping center,for like 100 million or so,here in Phoenix.
They will employ 3,000 people or around there.
Now that might change.Either by size,people employed,who knows.
But,they said,Amazon,are going to make changes.

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MagicWhisper

14 years ago

Welp, it looks like I won't be moving back to California anytime soon.

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powerfulprince

14 years ago

wow that's unfortunate. Thanks for the update.

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hgnis

13 years ago

wow. just when I find an affiliate program that I can make work they go and cut us off at the feet. I guess I will try and change the address to a different state.

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Jack44

12 years ago

Originally Posted by MatthewNeer

UPDATE: Jake from SF Weekly called my up yesterday and asked me a ton of questions about how I felt about this decision on Amazons behalf would effect my bottom line and how I felt the situation could have been better dealt with.

I'm not a big Amazon dude so I couldn't give him those juicy answers. He was looking for someone who actually makes a living selling Amazon products. If that is you, and you wanna get some extra publicity, PM me and I may be able to put your in touch with Jake.

UPDATE: Just got another email from Amazon about 15 hours ago now and it appears that the bill has been passed into law... Sorry Amazon peeps

Here's the exact email I got from Amazon...

"Hello,

Unfortunately, Governor Brown has signed into law the bill that we emailed you about earlier today. As a result of this, contracts with all California residents participating in the Amazon Associates Program are terminated effective today, June 29, 2011. Those California residents will no longer receive advertising fees for sales referred to Amazon.com, Endless.com, MYHABIT.COM or SmallParts.com. Please be assured that all qualifying advertising fees earned before today will be processed and paid in full in accordance with the regular payment schedule.

You are receiving this email because our records indicate that you are a resident of California. If you are not currently a resident of California, or if you are relocating to another state in the near future, you can manage the details of your Associates account here. And if you relocate to another state in the near future please contact us for reinstatement into the Amazon Associates Program.

To avoid confusion, we would like to clarify that this development will only impact our ability to offer the Associates Program to California residents and will not affect your ability to purchase from Amazon.com, Endless.com, MYHABIT.COM or SmallParts.com.

We have enjoyed working with you and other California-based participants in the Amazon Associates Program and, if this situation is rectified, would very much welcome the opportunity to re-open our Associates Program to California residents. As mentioned before, we are continuing to work on alternative ways to help California residents monetize their websites and we will be sure to contact you when these become available.

Regards,
The Amazon Associates Team"

Just got an email from Amazon guys, and this could be detrimental to anyone that lives in California who makes a living off of selling Amazon products.

Here is EXACTLY what the email said...

"Hello,

For well over a decade, the Amazon Associates Program has worked with thousands of California residents. Unfortunately, a potential new law that may be signed by Governor Brown compels us to terminate this program for California-based participants. It specifically imposes the collection of taxes from consumers on sales by online retailers - including but not limited to those referred by California-based marketing affiliates like you - even if those retailers have no physical presence in the state.

We oppose this bill because it is unconstitutional and counterproductive. It is supported by big-box retailers, most of which are based outside California, that seek to harm the affiliate advertising programs of their competitors. Similar legislation in other states has led to job and income losses, and little, if any, new tax revenue. We deeply regret that we must take this action.

As a result, we will terminate contracts with all California residents that are participants in the Amazon Associates Program as of the date (if any) that the California law becomes effective. We will send a follow-up notice to you confirming the termination date if the California law is enacted. In the event that the California law does not become effective before September 30, 2011, we withdraw this notice. As of the termination date, California residents will no longer receive advertising fees for sales referred to Amazon.com, Endless.com, MYHABIT.COM or SmallParts.com. Please be assured that all qualifying advertising fees earned on or before the termination date will be processed and paid in full in accordance with the regular payment schedule.

You are receiving this email because our records indicate that you are a resident of California. If you are not currently a resident of California, or if you are relocating to another state in the near future, you can manage the details of your Associates account here. And if you relocate to another state in the near future please contact us for reinstatement into the Amazon Associates Program.

To avoid confusion, we would like to clarify that this development will only impact our ability to offer the Associates Program to California residents and will not affect their ability to purchase from Amazon.com, Endless.com, MYHABIT.COM or SmallParts.com.

We have enjoyed working with you and other California-based participants in the Amazon Associates Program and, if this situation is rectified, would very much welcome the opportunity to re-open our Associates Program to California residents. We are also working on alternative ways to help California residents monetize their websites and we will be sure to contact you when these become available.

Regards,
The Amazon Associates Team"

Hope this shed some light on the recent conversations going on throughout this forum and exactly what Amazon is planning on doing once this law is passed.

We all wish that it does not pass, but hey, thats politics...

Your thoughts?

Matt, Well they got calif. Now? Ct. Got that Im saying Approx 2 years ago! Just Amazon,as far as I know, In CT. Yep, thats politics...!!!,Jack

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[UPDATED - SF WEEKLY] Amazon To TERMINATE Affiliate Accounts In California

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