Question for anyone who has sold, or will sell, an WSO in the future...

13 years ago

I know you are not asking for the heck of it.

But either my head is in my ass, or folks are reading the wrong things between the lines of Paypal mutterings.

It is not IMers on Paypal's radar, but the jackwads to use shady business practices in the IM industry.

For example, did you know that it is against Paypal's TOS to force people to opt-in to a list, before one delivers their purchase to them?

How many IMers do you know that do that? I have seen it a lot...

And then some of those people come back complaining how Paypal shut them down... And they are complaining they did nothing wrong...

LOL

Right or wrong, I am not the least bit concerned about Paypal shutting me down.

And if I do get shut down by Paypal for being in IM, my only loss will be the money currently in my Paypal account. I will bounce back quickly and be in business again the next day.

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rite

13 years ago

Originally Posted by tpw

I know you are not asking for the heck of it.

But either my head is in my ass, or folks are reading the wrong things between the lines of Paypal mutterings.

It is not IMers on Paypal's radar, but the jackwads to use shady business practices in the IM industry.

For example, did you know that it is against Paypal's TOS to force people to opt-in to a list, before one delivers their purchase to them?

How many IMers do you know that do that? I have seen it a lot...

And then some of those people come back complaining how Paypal shut them down... And they are complaining they did nothing wrong...

LOL

Right or wrong, I am not the least bit concerned about Paypal shutting me down.

And if I do get shut down by Paypal for being in IM, my only loss will be the money currently in my Paypal account. I will bounce back quickly and be in business again the next day.

i couldnt agree more. I am on the phone with paypal at least 3 times a week touching base asking question. any sign of trouble and im on the phone. paypal will take care of you as long as you take the time to work with them before there is a problem

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LB

13 years ago

Originally Posted by tpw

For example, did you know that it is against Paypal's TOS to force people to opt-in to a list, before one delivers their purchase to them?

How many IMers do you know that do that? I have seen it a lot...

I have yet to read this in Paypal's terms of service. If you have a link, please share.

I know that supposedly there were accounts shut down for this, and I completely believe it as it often seems whatever reason Paypal pulls out of their ass at that moment is the reason an account gets closed.

But against their ToS? I've read it through and through, but cannot find anything.

More importantly, did you know Paypal's IPN actually allows people to be added to your list automatically? Heck, there is a setting in Warriorplus to do just that. For everyone who complains about being "forced" to optin to a list, there are probably 10 warriors who are auto-adding people without any sort of optin at all. Paypal is setup to allow that. And buyers now have a "transactional relationship" with the seller.

If Paypal doens't allow forced optin, then someone better tell them they are allowing that exact feature with their IPN....but I suspect they already know that.

Once Paypal decides to close your account, you can call them 3 times and get 3 different reasons for the ban. If Paypal rep "John" says something isn't allowed, you can probably call back later and talk to "Linda" who will give you clearance for it. This has been my experience.

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ShayB

13 years ago

Originally Posted by tpw

And if I do get shut down by Paypal for being in IM, my only loss will be the money currently in my Paypal account. I will bounce back quickly and be in business again the next day.

Would you elaborate on this? Pretty please?

Is it because you have other systems in place for payments, or because you have multiple streams (some of which aren't dependent on PP), etc?

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tpw

13 years ago

Originally Posted by ShayRockhold

Would you elaborate on this? Pretty please?

Is it because you have other systems in place for payments, or because you have multiple streams (some of which aren't dependent on PP), etc?

I have accounts with Google Checkout, 2CheckOut, and Alert Pay.

If PayPal were to shut me down tonight, I would shift my entire business to one of these backup payment systems immediately.

PayPal is still my favorite, but I still accept some monies through other pay systems even now.

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Deedee11 13 years ago

I agree about not putting all your eggs in one basket---especially doing business online. I've been checking out moneybooker as well as alertpay. I like the looks of moneybooker a lot. I'm going to speak to someone in their customer relations tomorrow to see how they are.

To the op, sounds like a LOT of work. I'm working to put myself out of a LOT of work. lol

Success to all,
Dee
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Chris Hunter 13 years ago

Originally Posted by tpw

For example, did you know that it is against Paypal's TOS to force people to opt-in to a list, before one delivers their purchase to them?

Bill, this is absolutely correct.

From Paypal's site, on this page - https://cms.paypal.com/us/cgi-bin/?c...locale.x=en_US

"Prohibited Activities
You may not use the PayPal service for activities that: (d) are for the sale of certain items before the seller has control or possession of the item..."
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allenjohn

13 years ago

Hi - I think it's a great idea and you have a ready made market. If you had bank transfer, payment within 7 days and other edges over CB, who knows where this could go? I smell big.... regards Allen

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Charlotte Jay

13 years ago

Yes! I would go for this type of service. I have a couple of WSO's planned in the future and I worry about using Paypal because of the morons who spoil it for the rest of us. I had $7 held the other day because of "suspicious activity" I mean, really? Really? Come on. So if someone can come up with a payment processor that could circumvent these issues I would be all for it.

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GarrieWilson

13 years ago

Why go for something "limited" to the WF?

Why not go ahead and use CB, 2checkout or one of the others?

As for PayPal, I don't see any writing. Accounts are always being closed and what ONE employee said, I wouldnt pay attention. They always give different answers and I HIGHLY dought the people who would know for certain are allowed to tell.

-g

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Brian Clark 13 years ago

Would Paypal be able to know whether you were an IM or not?

(As opposed to someone selling products in another niche.)
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bankboss

13 years ago

Originally Posted by GarrieWilson

Why go for something "limited" to the WF?

Why not go ahead and use CB, 2checkout or one of the others?

As for PayPal, I don't see any writing. Accounts are always being closed and what ONE employee said, I wouldnt pay attention. They always give different answers and I HIGHLY dought the people who would know for certain are allowed to tell.

-g

I second this as well...happens all the time with shady buyers...

I'd vote for that op!

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WillR

13 years ago

All the people I have seen complaining in this forum about having their Paypal account shutdown have been selling work at home products which Paypal specifically say they do not support in their terms. Why are people then so confused when their Paypal accounts get taken away from them?

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13 years ago

Originally Posted by WillR

All the people I have seen complaining in this forum about having their Paypal account shutdown have been selling work at home products which Paypal specifically say they do not support in their terms. Why are people then so confused when their Paypal accounts get taken away from them?

so a Work at home ebook would get Paypal to shut down your account-warn you?

how about Internet marketing products, traffic increasing guides? do paypal allow these?

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ahlexis

13 years ago

But you need to read their terms of service with a fine tooth comb, my friend. Upon close examination of one part of their TOS I discovered they want to require pre-approval of all membership subscription sites, no matter what the subject or topic, that this is needed on a case by case basis.

Originally Posted by WillR

All the people I have seen complaining in this forum about having their Paypal account shutdown have been selling work at home products which Paypal specifically say they do not support in their terms. Why are people then so confused when their Paypal accounts get taken away from them?

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JennSpencerIM

13 years ago

Originally Posted by WillR

All the people I have seen complaining in this forum about having their Paypal account shutdown have been selling work at home products which Paypal specifically say they do not support in their terms. Why are people then so confused when their Paypal accounts get taken away from them?

Can you share where this is? I don't see anything about it in their terms of acceptable use: https://cms.paypal.com/us/cgi-bin/?c...locale.x=en_US

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WillR

13 years ago

Originally Posted by JennSpencerIM

Can you share where this is? I don't see anything about it in their terms of acceptable use: https://cms.paypal.com/us/cgi-bin/?c...locale.x=en_US

They changed the wording to:

Prohibited Activities

3. relate to transactions that (a) show the personal information of third parties in violation of applicable law, (b) support pyramid or ponzi schemes, matrix programs, other “get rich quick” schemes or certain multi-level marketing programs, (c) are associated with purchases of real property, annuities or lottery contracts, lay-away systems

All those WSO's promising X amount of dollars in X amount of time fall under that get rich quick banner... at least in Paypal's eyes they do. So no real surprise there.

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JennSpencerIM

13 years ago

Originally Posted by WillR

They changed the wording to:

All those WSO's promising X amount of dollars in X amount of time fall under that get rich quick banner... at least in Paypal's eyes they do. So no real surprise there.

Ahhh okay because I am starting to sell an IM product but it doesn't have those type of hype-y things. I emailed them for clarification to see if my site will be okay. If not, I'll just use my shopping cart without the ability to pay with Paypal. Thanks for that!

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rts2271 13 years ago

I find myself entirely unconcerned. I sell real products, I make no false claims, use no false scarcity. I provide consistent, solid support. I have multiple ways for a client to contact my business. I have a Paypal account and a Merchant account. It's only a issue if you have shady business practices.

Also remember this isn't Clickbank and Paypal coming up with rules to protect customers. Neither of these companies gives a rats ass about their customers or this would have been dealt with a year ago when the frauduct launch model exploded. This is the FTC, Mastercard, Visa and American Express putting the foot up their proverbial rear. If WF launched a similar service you can bet from day one they would have to follow the exact same rules.
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Martin Salter

13 years ago

Hi Gary

It has potential for sure, and you may want to use that as a launchpad for a Clickbank rival period

But I would think that having WSOPro perhaps accept something like Alertpay may be a good step forward for WSO's too. Alertpay are a good bunch (in my experience to date) so it may be good to offer an alternative anyway.

Paypal have their reasons for trying to weed out the IM niche, and I dont actually blame them looking at some of the crap going out lately. I have been selling Video products and Scripts with PP and avoid the "Make 10 Million with this Content" type hype and delivering true video content that actually helps, and it has been fine so far.

When you are one of the big guns in payment processing, I guess its more critical than ever to avoid the scam debates. They just dont need that hassle, plus it costs more to allow it than to just wipe it out.

I will certainly keep an eye out if you do launch something like CB

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premiumplr 13 years ago

To answer OP's question: I think alternate payment choices are always a sound business decision. Without a backup plan a technical problem can shut your business down.

As far a Paypal shutting down IM, I don't see that happening. The world has gone digital and it would make no sense for Paypal to move backwards and eliminate every IM product.

However those in purely MMO niches should always have several payment solutions because of the scrutiny .
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celente

13 years ago

I think a back up plan is always the way.

If paypal went down tomorrow I would be ok, if I got banned I would be ok.

Why cause I have a back up plan and that is to never toss all your eggs in one basket.

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ExRat

13 years ago

Hi Garrie,

You asked -

Why go for something "limited" to the WF?

Why not go ahead and use CB, 2checkout or one of the others?

Gary already mentioned -

Originally Posted by Gary_The_Ace

P.S. I'm not asking for the heck of it.

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Gary_The_Ace

13 years ago

Hey guys,

Well... in the past I considered a ClickBank rival, but to be honest, they have such a commanding lead in the space that it's just not worth the time, effort, and energy to jump in and try to compete.

Look at Plimus as an example... they tried, and just recently, as a result of aggressive practices on their end, ended up pulling out of the IM space all together. And, they've been around for nearly 10 years.

It's a lesson I learned well when I opened Email Aces... the original intention there was to form a competitor to Aweber and GetResponse, but both had a commanding lead in the space, and my time was better placed in other ventures.

As for PayPal, and the topic at hand... I personally know 10 respected IMers who have had their accounts closed within the past 30-45 days. Each of these guys was processing upwards of 50k a year through PayPal, and had been for at least a couple of years. I'm not going to name any names, but some of them would surprise you for sure...

If you'd have asked years ago if Amazon would mass delete tens of thousands of affiliates, the answer would have been no... but, we've seen how that's playing out.

Whether we like it or not, the writing is on the wall, and it appears that PayPal is starting to evaluate the IM space, which they lump together with all "make money" products, and trying to determine whether or not to continue offering support for clients selling these types of products...

So the question remains... for those of you who have sold a WSO in the past, would you be in the market for an alternative processor who offers credit card payments on your behalf, if the terms were similar to those of ClickBank.

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WillR

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Gary_The_Ace

I personally know 10 respected IMers who have had their accounts closed within the past 30-45 days. Each of these guys was processing upwards of 50k a year through PayPal, and had been for at least a couple of years. I'm not going to name any names, but some of them would surprise you for sure...

Gary,

I understand what you are saying but unfortunately Paypal don't care how well 'respected' a marketer is or even how long they have been in the game. If someone is doing something against their terms of service then they will do everything they can to prevent it from happening. This includes getting rid of people offering 'work at home' or 'make money online' type products; which covers majority of the products on the WSO forum.

To you and me $50,000/year might seem like big coin but to Paypal it is nothing. The money they make from that is not worth it if they are continually dealing with chargebacks, refunds, etc. They have to look after their reputation first and foremost and that is why these accounts are being shut down. It's no different to when Google went on a witch hunt and shut down a ton of Adwords accounts. They just get to a stage where they are sick of dealing with all the hassles so it's easier for them to just go out and remove those people causing the most problems.

As for an alternative, yes, it would be great. Having options is always a great thing. For those who do want to sell these types of products Paypal are against then we could definitely do with a payment processor that was just as easy to use as Paypal without all the risk. If it were made by someone who really understood Internet Marketing (such as yourself) then it could be a great hit and you could do really well from it.

In regards to using it for WSO's though you would need to try and integrate it into the forum as seamlessly as Warrior Plus does. I love everything about Warrior Plus if it just allowed us to use different payment processors.

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Brian E Adams

13 years ago

I'd love to see WSO Pro work with Clickbank or Alertpay. That would be wonderful to have these options.

I'd be surprised if Mike wasn't already working on this.

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WillR

13 years ago

Originally Posted by beadams

I'd love to see WSO Pro work with Clickbank or Alertpay. That would be wonderful to have these options.

I'd be surprised if Mike wasn't already working on this.

I'm not so sure. I think Mike would be hoping he can get away with Paypal for as long as possible because it offers instant payments to both the vendor and the affiliate. Let's face it, when Paypal works it is a drop-dead simple solution.

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HigherPrThanGod

13 years ago

Originally Posted by beadams

I'd love to see WSO Pro work with Clickbank or Alertpay. That would be wonderful to have these options.

I'd be surprised if Mike wasn't already working on this.

I agree. PayPal does not make me feel very confident.

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hamzah3

13 years ago

Originally Posted by beadams

I'd love to see WSO Pro work with Clickbank or Alertpay. That would be wonderful to have these options.

I'd be surprised if Mike wasn't already working on this.

I agree with you .I am already working with alertpay since last 1 year and never had any problem with them

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kindsvater

13 years ago

Gary, I think the answer is a yes. An obvious yes if PayPal mass cancels accounts.

Your question is something I have thought of myself recently. Why can't anyone start a payment processor?

One big issue, though, is it is not necessarily PayPal or Plimus putting pressure on marketers, it is even more powerful institutions putting pressure on PayPal or Plimus.

.

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Kay King

13 years ago

Wouldn't WSO sellers have to price the product higher on your site? Otherwise I'd think they would violate WSO rules.

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Dwight Anthony

13 years ago

I love paypal but it really is time for a friendlier processor to enter the market. When paypal gives issues, it's really tough. Right now, can't even add my new visa to my account because of a weird validation error on paypal's side.

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Seth Anderson

13 years ago

I know of a marketer that (at least in my opinion) stays well above board with Paypals TOS and still had his account locked. It wasn't for what was coming in, but instead, for what was going out of his account. Suffice to say it seems like Paypal is kind of making itself its own worst enemy in terms of Internet Marketers. There will have to be another decent solution down the road. No company can monopolize that market forever, especially when it starts turning on the people using it legitimately

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LB

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Seth Anderson

I know of a marketer that (at least in my opinion) stays well above board with Paypals TOS and still had his account locked. It wasn't for what was coming in, but instead, for what was going out of his account. Suffice to say it seems like Paypal is kind of making itself its own worst enemy in terms of Internet Marketers. There will have to be another decent solution down the road. No company can monopolize that market forever, especially when it starts turning on the people using it legitimately

Clarification? You're saying they banned him for what he was buying, or for making frequent withdrawals?

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Seth Anderson 13 years ago

He made a withdrawal of a couple thousand dollars a couple days apart. As far as I can tell that should have been fine but they locked it up.
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gskesavan

13 years ago

I don't think paypal is such a fool to actually ban internet marketers. Like tpw said, it might be because you are doing something wrong against their TOS.

About the withdrawal, did he even have a verified account? Yea, you are not supposed to make too many withdrawals in a month. If they locked it for that reason, you have to call them up and speak to them.

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JDArchitecture 13 years ago

Originally Posted by gskesavan

About the withdrawal, did he even have a verified account? Yea, you are not supposed to make too many withdrawals in a month.

Nonsense.

I make withdrawals every 3 to 5 days and use my debit card to pay for everything possible. Never had a problem.
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Mo Faisal

13 years ago

Hell yeah, Gary!!

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davcon

13 years ago

Yes I would be very interested. Although I have yet to launch a wso I plan on doing so in the very near future, hopefully just days away. I am, however, scared to death that paypal will limit my account. It seems that if a suddenly large amount of money gets sent to your account it raises a red flag and they shut you down until they evaluate you. I have never pushed large amounts through the account so I can imagine a problem will arise.

An alternative payment system to paypal would be very welcomed by me as I plan on launching more than a few wso's. That is if paypal doesn't decide to run their fingers through whatever money I earn for a year before allowing me to have it.

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Jay Moreno

13 years ago

I typically call paypal support and tell them in advance and make sure they make note on the account that we are doing a product launch and expect to see an increase in sales - touchwood to date I haven't had a problem and have been using paypal almost daily for past 6yrs

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WillR

13 years ago

Originally Posted by ahlexis

But you need to read their terms of service with a fine tooth comb, my friend.

Exactly my point... and if you don't, then you suffer the consequences.

Originally Posted by Jay Moreno

I typically call paypal support and tell them in advance and make sure they make note on the account that we are doing a product launch and expect to see an increase in sales - touchwood to date I haven't had a problem and have been using paypal almost daily for past 6yrs

Jay,

I've never done this because I have heard from others that did this and ended up having problems with their account for the first time. I'm a bit wary about drawing any unnecessary attention to my account - which is what you (proverbial 'you') are inviting by calling them up.

Besides, I don't think this is really going to make the difference between them freezing your account or not. Let's face it. If I were planning on running some type of scam using Paypal I could ring them up just like you and tell them to expect some abnormal activity on that day. For that reason I think they would take all this information with a grain of salt... they'd be silly not to.

I don't think it would stop them placing a hold on your account at all... in fact as I say, I have heard of plenty of people who have called them beforehand and also ended up with frozen accounts.

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George Wright

13 years ago

I'll relate a conversation I had with a paypal rep.

A little background first.

I funded my wife's PayPal account with a Greendot money pak. To get her a $10 reward that GreenDot and PayPal were offering I had to put a SS# Stupidly I put mine out of habit.

Well, $10 was deposited and the account was restricted.

I am a PayPal Advantage Member, (you know we get paypal caps, Water Bottles etc.) Anyway I decided to take advantage of having a dedicated Advantage Rep and called.

I explained that I had made a stupid mistake and My wife gave the Rep permission to talk to me about her account and within 18 hours the account was opened. However here is the part that may be of interest to this thread...

I asked if my account could be restricted if I had a sudden influx of payments. The Rep said, Yes, If they didn't have my SS number and If the sudden influx was large and If..... I Didn't call first to let them know I was expecting a large amount of sales.

I asked "What do you consider large?" The rep said $10,000 or more coming in, in a short time span.

Submitted for what it's worth,

George Wright

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WillR

13 years ago

Originally Posted by George Wright

I asked if my account could be restricted if I had a sudden influx of payments. The Rep said, Yes, If they didn't have my SS number and If the sudden influx was large and If..... I Didn't call first to let them know I was expecting a large amount of sales.

George,

Thanks for sharing that!

I just don't see what calling them proves. I could be someone up to no good and just as easily call them.

I can't believe that makes a difference but as I say, I know people who have done the warning call and still been frozen so it's not a guarantee... it seems nothing with Paypal is.

As was correctly pointed out in a recent report I read about Paypal... no one is ever going to know exactly what and what doesn't cause these accounts to get frozen. Paypal will never make that clear because as soon as they do people can then manipulate the system to get around it.

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Jay Moreno

13 years ago

It's been a good 18 months since I did this, although the lady was sceptical at the amount of money I said I expected to be taking in they did actually call me a few days later to ask me what exactly what I was doing - in all honesty I have found them very co-operative my only bug to bare was I did get a chargeback that I called BS on and paypal sided with me however they charged me $20 and the persons CC company still reversed the payment... In that instant there is nothing you or paypal can do about it... Makes me wonder how many chargebacks a person can do before the cc company says wtf are you playing at!

Be nice to see a buyer/seller blacklist that you can protect yourself against serial charge backers! Lol

@George you posted whilst I was writing this - but they said exactly that when i called them they asked if I expect to make more than $10k in about 5 days... And I said yes the woman was actually quite off hand with me and she more or less said I doubt it! Lol was nice to proove her wrong! Lol

Come to think about it i Have also had paypal call me numerous times too ask me about certain payments I've made etc...

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Jay Moreno

13 years ago

George how do apply to be advantage? I pay for paypal pro and spend $5k monthly but never got any type of advantage upgrade membership! I do get cash back every month though lol

@op yes I would be interested!

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Steve Iser 13 years ago

Do it.

PS. Gary my xbox controller is gathering dust. WTF.
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George Wright

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Jay Moreno

George how do apply to be advantage? I pay for paypal pro and spend $5k monthly but never got any type of advantage upgrade membership! I do get cash back every month though lol

@op yes I would be interested!

Hi

I didn't apply. I didn't even know about it until they made me a member. A lot of purchases are not counted. You could probably call and ask to be made a member.

George Wright

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Edward Thomes

13 years ago

What if you change the bought product to a specific license?

Say... you buy a license, and it grants you membership/ a download link to your internet marketing product.

Literally speaking, it would be related to IM, but the product sold wouldn't be an IM product.

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Chris Hunter

13 years ago

I've had no issues with Paypal so far, but it would be really nice if there was another service that could be used the same way.

Also, it would be really cool if WSO Pro could use another processor besides Paypal. I'd be more apt to use it and promote affiliates with it.

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Ok, sure. You can follow me on Twitter - http://twitter.com/Chris_Hunter ;)

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Gary Ning Lo

13 years ago

i like the idea..

The ideal would be a sort of warrior plus on steriod, with it's own payment processor..

Cheers,

~Gary

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sbucciarel

Banned 13 years ago

Never had a problem with Paypal. I sell domains and websites. I don't sell dreams to dreamers. I'll stick with DLGuard and Paypal. Simple and works like a charm

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