Tired of Serial Refunders

These are the people who are too gutless to email and ask for a refund. I just laugh and move on. They are the idiots who will still be here in 5 years making zero money online. Karma takes care of those people so I don't have to.

It gets really annoying when that happens. You will always get people like that and there will always be freeloaders who want something for nothing. That's why alot of my products I have a protection over those type of things. Put up a privacy policy in where you have your refund policy clearly stated.

That's why, if you're offering a free trial, you should never sign up with a site without researching it thoroughly. There are many sites that will promote your free trial and pay people to try it. As soon as the payment hits their account they will cancel.

PayPal needs to examine those claims more closely, in my opinion.

I mean, what are the odds that I am going to notice an unauthorized transaction within seconds, even minutes, of it occurring?

And, in the case of a serial refunder, they are going to have a lot of such claims. Again, what are the odds that you're going to have a bunch of unauthorized transactions on your account, over a period of time, and you just happen to catch them within seconds or minutes of them occurring each and every time?

It doesn't look good when you have alot of those transactions on your account. Make sure that you contest those refunds with your proof that they've purchased. Also show them your refund policy on your website.

I don't use WSO Pro and I don't have a problem with serial refunders either. I use DLGuard for product delivery and it has the option to ban people by IP and by email and it gives you the IP of the purchaser/refunder. I use it and ban both by IP and email when I issue a refund. They never get the chance to do it again.

Without sounding too harsh , I want to say stop moaning dude . Just like you have people unsubcribe from your list even if you give the best that you know that works , people would ask for refunds .

Some people just want to take advantage of your kindness . As look as you bring in the quality , not making over the top promises and give numerous bonuses . Refund rate would be low .

It is just part of things . Some people would just refund

You can decide to stop offering refunds and back it up with good reasons not

Sorry dude . Know what it is like .

Gets on ones nerves sometimes

Awesome rant! Loved it. I have had the same experience lately. I just released a WSO that has 10 content modules and 14 videos, yet after just 10 minutes after signing up they wanted refunds because they just knew it was exactly the same as some other person's product.

I mean really! I read fast, but I couldn't go through 80+ pages of content, a resource guide, a quick start guide and 14 videos that fast.

With the PayPal seller protection, all you need to do is drop your product on a CD (0.30), mail it to the customer first class (0.71) with signature receipt (1.35) They can only win if they go through Visa/mc. You could even do the same thing cheaper by sending them a letter the same way with a think you for purchasing and they need to sign for it. If they are going to be nasty, you can fight it. The letter and sig will only cost you about $2.

Yes I sympathize with you. That's a problem with digital information. Once they have the file, it's not like having a product they need to return. If they file for a refund they still get the benefit of the information and you are out of a sale.

I think Clickbank has some type of policy where they disable someones account if they do this too often. But it is certainly a common problem and I wish there were better solutions for it.

The fact of the matter is it is the cost of doing business online with digital downloadable products. Therefore, you need to factor into your business plan about 20% refund rate on sales. That way, you will not go crazy every time someone asks you for refund.

You're spot on and as a vendor of both Clickbank and Paydotcom products I've experienced both situations. Clickbank and there crazy 60 day no quibble guarantee and Paypal's pathetic resolution facility, which is open to all sorts of abuse and they'll always side with the buyer's claims as they don't want the hassle.

Mark

I have seen a lot of people mention these things and have to wonder if there is actually anything that can be done to cut down on the freeloaders?

The only real answer I have seen so far is to set up your product as an e-course,dishing out a little information each week, and make sure the customers don't get too much for free before the time limit on refunds is up.

Are there other ways of working around the freeloaders?

Some people are just out there trying to get over on others. No matter what your niche is you will run into people like this.

These people are not worth the negative energy you spend worrying about them. I just refund the money, etc, and don't give it a second thought.

I get even by putting a curse on them... condemning all of the
children in the next 20 generation of their family to really,
really ugly... then I move on

They are a part of doing business, and I do block them where
practical, but that's not always possible.

Willie

Lots of great approaches to this problem. Either don't offer refunds and make that clear prior to purchase (I've never seen a difference in conversions) or issue refunds but don't be so hung up on it (anyone who serial refunds is someone who doesn't have the skill/perseverance to make real money online anyway, IMO).

I think you are wasting too much time on minutia. All businesses have a lot of piddly issues that come up, but in the course of business don't amount to a hell of a lot. In the digital delivery business you are going to run into this because of the nature of people. There are a certain percentage that are just a$$holes. Just move on to the business of selling your merchandise and dispense with these jerks and quit worrying about them. There is not a hell of a lot you can do about them, other than ban them from your product purchases. They must amount to only a very small percentage of your business. So concentrate on the larger percentage that makes you money, and expand that part.

As they say, don't sweat the petty stuff, or was it, don't pet the sweaty stuff.

i never refund products, even tho i have had some really bad ones!! Thats life tho! For the price we get them here its hard to complain! This is a community and we are all on the same boat, just at different levels... obviously if i get a bad product i wont get any of their future products...

I think we need to start thinking of creating a software where we can put our product inside and when someone asked for a refund, the software will just stop working so they can't use out product. What I mean is, products like ebooks and videos....

I've had a site up and running since 2007.

It's got over 142,000 posts on the forums, 100's and 100's of videos, 5 techniques in the first month, tons of webinar recordings and tools galore.

I've had ONE alien, (it couldn't have been a real person), request a refund for his $1 on the trial, saying it wasn't worth a dollar.

A DOLLAR.

I did refund him and I don't even argue anymore because some people will never get it no matter what you do or say.

This state may be happen from day to day by selling digital products. The customers want to get the product but not losing money. I think if the vendor dont want to refund, he can make a notice to paypal about this nuisance.

Why are you not blacklisting them?

Let me play devil's advocate just for a moment here.

Are you being upfront about what it is that you're selling? It seems to me like the latest fashionable craze is to sell the dream, pure hype, without telling people what it is that you're actually selling them. Too many times we see in sales copy what we're NOT buying, but that doesn't help.

Must be as that's from 2003.

https://cms.paypal.com/us/cgi-bin/?c...locale.x=en_US

has:

I know. I know. You will now argue over "get rich quick" but that's not an issue unless you make hyped up, over-exagerated claims. Like many/most WSOs.

Because people are always right on forums. :rolleyes:

I did once too for that reason. Within 48 hours, PayPal said "sorry our mistake"

No. I think you proved that. Here's the URL to the AUP for you to review.

https://cms.paypal.com/us/cgi-bin/?c...locale.x=en_US

It's inevitable that there are many folks who simply want to get something for free, while they apply the techniques they have learnt and come back later to sell it to others, unfortuante but this is some of the bad seeds in the IM game

PayPal defines "Get Rich Quick" as:

From: https://www.paypal.com/helpcenter/ma...030&isSrch=Yes

I hear you man. People like that seriously need to disappear off this
planet. Ones who are intentionally trying to screw someone over. They
definitely don't think how it can effect us nor do I think they care.

However you look at it, there are some messed up people in this world.
I have to give you props for having the guts to bring up this topic for sure
man.

Jake

Maybe they just didn't like your product and just could be getting a refund that way because they can't be bothered waiting for email corespondance. I'm not condoning their actions just saying that most people can't be bothered emailing back and forward waiting for a refund.

I had someone file a refund request on one of my products just recently. The customer said "It didnt meet my expectations" This is on a product that I've been selling for over 2 years, with less than a dozen of refund requests in that time.

Naturally, I followed up with a polite email asking for some form of feedback or suggestions on how I could "improve my product" ....I never heard back.

Out of interest, I facebooked the customers email account and found the person.

Lets just say that their wall was wide open to public view and what I read infuriated me.

I dont mind genuine refund requests, but people abusing the system - its lousy.

Many of us vendors spend thousands putting these products together, and guess what?

We've got bills to pay just like you.

Serial refunders don't bother me at all anymore. When I get a refund DEMAND... Not a request... Their information get's added to my do not do business with database.

My product download delivery script checks this database... If someone is in it... They get a... Sorry... A problem has occurred with your order and an operator has been notified to manually process your order. A highly valuable bonus product will be included in your order for the inconvenience. (This stops them from doing a instant PayPal dispute since they are going to get something extra.)

Then of course I do a refund and they don't get the product. Pisses them off but works like a charm.

I actually tried to market a product that did this and used a database of serial refunders from all marketers involved and had lot's of talk but zero interest. Seems like most Internet Marketers like to complain but don't want to put in the effort to stop the serial refunder.

Re's
Rob Whisonant

I've run into this issue as well and it's a loophole in Paypal and more and more people are learning about it and taking advantage of it.

I suppose people wouldn't ask for a refund if the product was good...the problem recently is that there is so much crap out there...!!! Do your research on the WF and then the products you buy will not have to be refunded...Is that too simple...???

People like to take advantage if they discovered the loophole.
Paypal gives money back too fast. (investigation process is not enforced)
Why did these guys buy in the firsty place?
People are spending money they dont have.

It's just business.

I just send the refund and keep the emails in one list. Too bad WSO PRO doesn't have a way to block these emails, IP's - just like DL Guard.

Edit: Paypal, WSO PRO and all the other systems SHOULD HAVE the option to insert "bad" emails. Simple.

If there is a refund policy there will be refund requests and people who abuse it, that's a given. It's something we all have to deal with in order to raise the confidence of other people to buy our products and services.

But another side of the coin is the "BIG MYSTERY" sales pitch. You know, the ones that promise the moon, have payment 'proof' which cannot be verified by looking at a screen shot or video, and then they only tell you want this product is NOT. It's not PPC, it's not PPV, it's not this, it's not that... WHAT THE HECK IS IT THEN? Buy it and find out. You've got a 60 day money back guarantee! No risk!

When I go to a store, I don't see a bunch of boxes in the aisles with "GUESS WHAT THIS IS! YOU'll BE COMPLETELY SATISIFED BECAUSE 1000000 PEOPLE ALREADY WERE, AND IF NOT YOU HAVE 60 DAYS TO GET YOUR MONEY BACK -- BUT I'M NOT TELLING YOU WHAT YOU'RE BUYING -- AND DON'T DARE REALLY ACT ON THE MONEY BACK GUARANTEE OR I WILL BAN YOU FROM FURTHER PURCHASES."

How about this one...
"Secret method to add 700 targeted subscribers to your list within 48 hours -- guaranteed or your money back!... It's not Facebook, it's not Twitter, it's not Ad Swaps... etc. etc."
Loads of proof from the EWebber account... the dude's done it day after day afetr day! ClickBank screenshot of earnigs from mailing the list afterwards...

I bought it because I really do want to ad subscribers to my list... what could this 'secret method" be? After 4 pages of junk about why you need an email list I got to the big 'secret'...
put a little video up on youtube with text that says "GUESS WHAT I WAS DOING WHEN MY WIFE CAUGHT ME! CLICK THE LINK BELOW TO FIND OUT" ... and then you redirect them to the lead capture page and they have to enter their email before you tell them some bull****.

MONEY BACK PLEASE! That's not a targeted list unless you want perverts! I doubt if it even works! I'm not trying to find out!

I have kept 90% of the products I've purchased but with WSO's flying at you several a day, and with so much repetition, you don't often know what you get until you've purchased it because of the 'myster content' ads. So if I buy your product and I've got other products with the same content, don't be surprised if I ask for money back, even if your product is good. Why should I keep it if I didn't know what the content was and it duplicated what I already have? Make your ad clearer in that case.

Some of what I've bought is honestly just crap. Once I bought a WSO the second time by mistake and the guy has just ignored my refund request for the second purchase -- even though I said he could replace it with another WSO. He ignored two requests... Another one I bought without a refund offer was so lame it wasn't worth the digital ink it was printed on. I asked for a refund and of course never heard from him.

There's courses being sold that tell you to scrape other people's content, change the wording and sell your own product as original. Well those two products still have the same content and probably have the same content-concealing sales pitch.

The advertising really gets me when you have to guess what it is but you've been teased to the limits to buy it to find out.

Those who open PayPal issues instead of asking for refunds should lose their own PayPal accounts for their own fraud. That' is just as unacceptable as Mystery Ads.

There's my rant. As Jack Nickelson said... "This town needs an enima!"

Now don't all rush to ban me from buying your WSO's -- I keep those that add valuable content that I don't already have, which is about 90% of the ones I buy because I am as discriminating as I can be with the information given. I pass on many I would otherwise buy if more information was given.

The thingy here is to understand the reason why a customer wants his money back, then try to eliminate the root of the problem.

A feasable reason includes:

- not unique information

But you`re right, some people simply purchase with the intension to turn it back.

Just got a chargeback. Customer bought my product over a month ago ....sheesh

I sell in many niches and the only niche I get hit by serial refunders is the IM niche. In fact outside the IM niche chargebacks, refund demands and even legitimate refund requests are basically non existent.

I love the IM refund demands that show a time stamp of the refund demand that falls between purchase time and actual download time. Seems some of the serial refunders are dumb as a box of tacks.

Re's
Rob Whisonant

These type of people are so irritating. and Its not surprise to find these type of peoples we can find them easily. Thanks to the peoples who share there information here.

For me, i won't really bother to ask for any refund if I'm not contented with their service. but there's no way I'm going to shut my mouth about it. I will be totally honest by telling them what i really feel about their products. A constructive criticism that will allow them to grow.

As PPC-Coach mentioned above asking for refund of $1 trial saying its not worth i don't think the person who bought the trial for his business is worth half a cent. I purchased many products and though lot scrap i always got something out of that... never ever requested for a refund. I always think its stupidity to use the 30 or 60 day guarantee period. If some chap is thinking in that way it's sure that he did not put his efforts rather than waited few days to pass only to ask his money back in the form of refunds.
There are crazy people out there who i suppose are still asking for refunds even though being 5 to 10 yrs in the online marketing. These are the people who never made money online and are not going to make a dime in the future... i can only lol on those people...

Believe it or not, not all of them have bad intentions in mind.

I once received a refund request on one of my products and the buyer politely replied to my email informing me that he hadnt read the product description carefully enough. He thought my product was something else ....no biggy, I cant understand that - Im guilty of skimming over things myself.

Upon receiving the refund, this particular customer then emailed me and asked ...

"What should i do with the files? Should I delete them?"

I was so pleased to see such honesty, I told him not too - and to keep them on me as thanks

For years people been talkin' bout setting up a Serial Refunder site, where
these freeloaders can be reported.

Someone jump on that idea...

biting your tongue is difficult sometimes..haha

I've actually thought of tightening up my policy just a tad, especially on my products that I KNOW produce results (as long as the work is done). I've seen a lot of people integrate policies where the buyer has to show some sort of "proof" that they at least tried putting various methods into action. It also sort of makes the buyer have some accountability, which could actually get them motivated enough to make something work for them, making it a win-win for everyone involved.

What do you think?