An Open Letter To Allen & The Moderators

I'll be part of the John Taylor uprising.

John,
I think you are right on target.

I ran out of thanks today John.. al that sense you are talking is making me thank you plenty..

I agree whole heartedly...

I'm not one for saying what should happen, or what should be done etc.. but I think you are right, and I do hope things get better, with or without Allen's intervention..

Peace

Jay

Absolute agreement John. Cheers.

Well said John,
And just to add to your list,
The never ending self promotional posts
that have been bumped for months.
These would have been locked long ago.

I haven't always agreed with the moderators on the old forum, but I much prefer the way things used to be. IMO, this forum is so successful it should have paid moderators.

Thanks John,

Because I believe people should become the change they want to see, I will report more of the questionable posts than I already do.

Usually I just go after the blatant spammers, but now it'll be any post I read that doen't belong here. I will try to use my best judgment, but can't guarantee I will get it right every time. However, any posts I flag will be for what I think is the good of the forum.

On a side note, it doesn't matter to me if you have 1 post or 5,000 - if it doesn't belong here, I'm flagging it.

Here's to a brighter and better WF in 2009!

All the best,
Michael Oksa

I've been a part of a good few other forums and just took for granted that this one already had Mods like they did. It has been pretty well run for a forum without Mods. I can see you would need some to clean up messes and contain somethings before they get out of control. Just because we are all adults here doesn't mean that we will all act like one.

The WF is a great tool for someone like me who just wants to learn and, hopefully, to help others learn. A few Moderators would really help cut down on the clutter and clean up things making it easier to do so.

Sorry if my post count or joined date doesn't qualify me to speak on the matter. I just know from experience in other forums how beneficial Mods can be and believe that it would be the same here.

Right on, John.

I especially object to "Threads designed to promote upcoming WSO offers"

I personally know someone who would post here just to create a ruckus with the hope that people would see his sig file and click through.

Is this what happens when anarchists take over?

I agree, we need real mods.

And HAPPY NEW YEAR EVERYBODY!!!

Yes John,

I have wondered about the changes in the forum myself, seeing lots of self-serving posts coming up and lots of useless posts.

I'm not sure if it's due to how the forum is moderated or simply because the number of users has increased a lot.

This is probably something the 'old' mods can evaluate best, because they know how much crap they had to delete.

True!

Ralf

John, I haven't been a part of this forum for very long, but I would have to agree with you. I noticed a number of weird requests for money just before Christmas. I would hope, however, that the forum is not made so inaccessible that new members like me can't make a real contribution.

Happy New Year!

I couldn't agree more. I'm relatively new and still feel like I'm getting used to things around here, but you put into words a lot of what I was thinking. Hopefully we will see some changes around here.

I've nuked a whole bunch of threads recently by repeatedly reporting them. If we all do the same instead of complaining, the forum will clean up nicely and fast. Don't be afraid to use the report post button when you see something that just doesn't belong. When you see the results, you'll be glad you did.

TomG.

Nathan,

I'm not suggesting that there's anything
wrong with a diverse and varied range of
topics to debate. However, we have other
specialist forums to discuss Copywriting,
SEO, CPA and other topics.

You can put it anyway you want, but don't
suggest that my intention was to criticize
Allen or the other Admins. I know what it's
like to be a MOD here.

I certainly wouldn't want to be a part of any
"cartel" or other means of manipulating the
forum. There's enough of that going on already.

John

Exactly. Half the stuff in the main forum doesn't even go there. If it belonged on the wf at all, it would be the Off Topic section.

John

I completely agree and sad to say it's one of the reasons I have been here far less than I used to be. The range of issues you highlighted plus a few other unsavoury matters keep me away.

Yes I could spend time reporting posts advocating violence, self promoting and the likes but I simply don't have the time.

Thanks for raising the issue.

Take care

Paul

I agree as well. It's getting harder to read through posts and find useful content as it's mostly self-promoting stuff.

I'm with you too John...100%

Allen: with all due respect, sir...It's not working

If you need volunteers, I will do what I can and give what time I can to this excellent place. It wouldn't be but a few hours a week that I could spare right now, but if called...I will serve.

Peace, and Happy New Year!

Gman

Well...I am all for having moderators back. If we don't have the ones that used to like to get delete happy via personal preference. Or didn't like threads that were bordering on a topic/niche they were in. No one can convince me that it didn't happen all the time. Because it did...I watched it daily... IF you can find actual unbiased mods...then I say go for it.

EDIT: Also I am not saying all mods were like that...only a chosen few...

It's kind of like when I take my dogs to parks or even hotels that allow dogs. When I see someone else's dog has left a mess, I clean it up while I'm picking up after my own dogs. My hope is that the park or hotel will continue allowing me to visit with my dogs if we keep the area clean.

Same goes for the Warrior Forum. I LIKE visiting here. And so I always hit the report button on the "crap" in hopes that this place stays clean... so Allen will continue to let us all visit.

Cheers,
Becky

What difference does that make, if 900 of them are posting pure, unadulterated crap?

Alexa rank rising? Yeah, like a fever in an ill patient.

Since when was this forum meant to be simply entertaining or "of interest?" I thought it was about making money, with an emphasis on internet marketing. That's what I come here for - serious discussion of marketing and making money (with the occasional levity provided by the Rileys/Segals/HillbillyMarketers of the forum.)

I'm with John and the others 100%, as I've stated previously in PM's with a few other members.

Thank you very much, John, and a Happy New Year to you.

John, I totally disagree.

I think it may need some rules tightening up to deal with some of the points you mentioned BUT having the USER as the moderator is by FAR the best method I've come across on any forum.

Great system as it is IMO.

I will have to join the majority opinion here,

I did notice a difference in the topics posted when we changed over, I thought that perhaps it was a temporary thing, new members posting different topics, since the new format attracted a lot of members and some inactive members to start posting.

However over time, it seems like a little air has gone out of the tire, easily fixed, or at least easy to say that.

I am not sure what the solution is, as we are an evolving community while we may wish to go back in time, the truth is that we cannot because we are no longer exactly like the old community was in the past, but I do remember being more interested in keeping up with the main forum and now I do not visit every day like I did in the past.

Thanks for posting this worthy topic, I am sure as every one here we all love the warrior forum in any form it takes.

happy new year,

I guess one thing that can be considered is this...

Allen tried the change for a reason...The moderation wasn't working as is...to many complaints. Now the moderation isn't working to everyones expectations as it is...too many complaints...

Catch 22...

Personally I feel the member moderation hasn't been in place long enough to really tell how well it works. It would actually be nice to have Allen chime in and give an idea of how many posts actually are removed via member moderation.

I do notice that it seems we all catch the spammers quick.

Paul, John, and others....

My apologies for over-reacting. I am in the midst of some very serious family issues, and I have a feeling that is bringing out the worst of me here at the WF.

Paul, you're a good guy, and I have no issue with you. Sorry for being a jerk - that's just not my style.

John, you did what you thought was right, and while I disagree - no hard feelings.

Others, sorry for sidetracking this worthy discussion. Now, back to the main topic.

All the best,
Michael Oksa

I think it is obvious that changes were made for financial considerations. WSO's are a driving force for the owners of the forum and to have overbearing mods would only deflect that.

Allen leaves it up to us but nothing gets done. He'll bring back set moderators and some will moan.

I think the system is set up perfect as it is. The problem is with the system controllers (us).

I have no suggestions except for keep reporting the the threads which are off topic, spam, and against the rules.

Louis

If it returned, and there happened to be no mods on when spammers came, their spam could take the entire first page until a mod came on.

Then there will be posts complaining about the spam and about how something needs to be done and round and round we go.

Maybe if it goes back to mods, there should be several more mods, so when the spammers and scammers go on a posting spree, it can be dealt with more swiftly and more chances a mod will be online.

Now when a spammer goes on a posting spree, ppl can just press report and have it nuked instantly.

Personally, I'd like to thank John for having the stones to make the opening post in what I believe will be an ongoing discussion for quite a while.

I think that there can be little doubt that the WF is evolving into something quite different from what it was even a year ago. In some ways it has become a much colder place that seems to be losing its sense of humor.

Hell, we all know that the main forum is for posting threads about "making money". But, since when did making money mean that you aren't allowed to have fun doing it (or for that matter, discussing it?)

When you limit a member's post to "Just the facts, maam", as Sgt. Joe Friday might say, you deny yourself a glimpse into that Warrior's personality and all the threads become as dry as dust; not something many people want to keep coming back to. The forum begins to lose its stickiness as more Warriors just fade away.

Now, I know Allen wants us all to be Moderators and help to police the forum but, the sad truth is...

I'm no moderator and I know it.

I wholeheartedly agree with John's advocacy to bring back the real Mods so that the rest of us can get back to having some fun and making posts without sweating over trying to be perfect in our delivery.

MikeRogers

I appreciate all the sentiments in the previous replies. Community moderation is an incredibly hard thing to get right.

Good examples to look at are Digg and Slashdot. Both give immense power over to the community to promote and demote content, and it works (most of the time).

Unfortunately there will always be people who try to game the system - so some moderation is always needed. This is a staff role, as it sits outside of the "community moderation" role. It's hard to get community members to perform this moderation role unless their personal incentives are very closely aligned to the mission of the site owners.

It seems to me that those preferring a "well moderated forum" have anti freedom of speech philosophies. While outright spam should be stopped, to say that some dialog is not suited for a particular topic is going too far in my opinion. It portrays a sheep like mentality of conformity.

John for what it's worth I agree with you but I personally think we should re-install the MODS!

Yes...it IS a thankless job, being abused by forum members, making a decision that may not be popular, but at the end of the day even though this forum has picked up members it certainly isn't the same as when I came on board in 2004!

If there is a "vote" I'm in on bringing back the MODS!

chuck

I agree with you John.

The solution to the problem is not in a shift in moderation but to clarify the rules which govern this diamond mine.

Sadly, the current rules do not speak to the type of content posted in the Main but rather, specific to signature file use, avatar use and blog use.

Another sad fact is that there are only 4000+ views for the forum rules to date.

http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...ead-first.html

I like your definition of noise in the Main and will vote for adding it to the current community rules of this forum (if the option was present to vote).

Cheers!

Just wanted to pipe in and say a little something about the report button. Members with higher post counts have greater leverage when reporting than those with lower post counts. Knowing that, some members may not feel it is worth reporting as their report will not be given much weight.

And here was me thinking that it was just me who was becoming disappointed and disillusioned with how the WF has become in the past year or so.

A timely post though John, and kudos for posting it.

After over 10 years as a member here, I believe it is time to call it a day, for me anyway.

This has become a kiddies forum.

It used to be a place where folks could come and really learn about what it takes to be successful in IM.

There were times when I didn't agree with the actions of Allen and some of the Mods, but I could live with them because of the calibre of information and the people giving it.

Does anyone else remember when it felt "Special" to be a member here?

That was something that no other forum could offer...It made it unique and it was a major factor in its success. It is a pity that it has lost that 'uniqueness'

Not a place I want to call home anymore....It has become "Just another forum"

Sad, but true...

Self moderation is flawed because it requires more than one member to catch onto what is going on.

Even if it is caught, the person breaking the rules ends up sticking around long enough to get enough traffic to not discourage them before enough people report them for action to be taken.

It should be simple. The posted rules are the guide, but many will flag a thread because they simply don't agree, or they don't like that person.

I never worry about repeated questions. It bugs some people and they like to yell " Use the search feature".. Well, they could, but it may not be the most current answer to the question. Someone may have a completely different answer. This is a forum, a discussion, not a knowlege base. Subjects will
come up over and over as new people come and go.

An analogy, if I may...

We live in a great big city of multitudes of people. The citizens are well-trained in martial arts and self-defence (and through experience, some have developed some skill in law-enforcement measures and police work) and are tasked with keeping the city safe.

However, they are not professional police. They are citizen police. They have to make a living. Previously, when the city was just an average sized village, and infractions were of an "innocent" nature unintentionally committed by mostly honest and decent folks (and the demands of making a living, business, family, and a thousand and one other things weren't that intense) a citizen police force was sufficient to cope.

Then the village became a big city. And those demands became even more intense. Although the citizens have the martial skills, they no longer have the time to actually do the police work. They want to, they have every good intention of making the neighborhoods safe for everyone, but the demands of the times are much more urgent, and must take precedence over "citizen police work".

Because of the times, the city needs a professional police force.

Just my opinion, nothing more (BTW, sorry for the "incomplete" analogy. I'm writing in a rush)

Kenneth

Pay per post? No way. Then only like 2 people will be posting.

Yup - this place is NOTHING like it was a year ago. Defintely on a down.

Respectfully,
Allen Graves

I am not commenting to agree or disagree. I will state however that I have learned a tremendous amount by reading the various posts on this forum. Whatever does happen related to controlling the posts, I hope that posts are still made and allowed for those of us that continue to learn day in and day out from this forum. Thank you for allowing me to comment.

I'm no longer a daily peron on here
and haven't been for a while.
I pop on about once a week and browse and to be honest, despite what you say, the actual content of this place really hasn't altered in the two years I've been on here- in relation to numbers of people doing all those transgressions you mentioned
Perhaps it's more that we always beocme aware of fashionable transgressions, from time to time
those things you've mentioned have ALWAYS go on.

I am not sure about the moderator changes, but I do know for the most part we are all adults, and we can moderate to make this the place we want it to be

There were many valid points and possible solutions brought forth. But what we all must remember is that the old way of moderating needed a change. So Allen came up with self-moderating which we now have the power to use. We as committed members just need to use that power judiciously and fairly no matter how many posts you have as Michael Oksa alluded to.

Just a thought which might make sense or not...You know when you log in the first thing you see is a Warrior's Ad---why not make the first thing you have to see is the "Warrior Forum Rules - Please Read First!" and "Members are Moderators" threads only, then have members click accept function to abide, and then give access to the rest of the forum. I know it can be a pain but its a price to pay for all those who want to see the Warrior Forum continue to progress upwardly.

Another idea would be to have some type of function on the forum where if a member tries to posts a new thread the system does a check to see if that question or comment has been made already. If it has never then allow the new thread to post if it has then the member will be forced to go through the thread results to find their answer. Just throwing out some solutions to be helpful.

It's been going down since at least last summer, one big reason I'm not such a fixture here as I used to be. Ironically, when I posted about this previously I was piled on by members and censored by mods. (I think it's still in the "off topic" section of the old forum, if you care to go looking for it.)


Frank

Like others, I too have felt the winds of change and kudos to John for bringing it up.

I've been posting here myself less recently because my time is better spent elsewhere.

For what it's worth, I feel the problem is simply that many people are here to promote themselves, not to help others.

Who can blame them - it's free advertising to their target market.

The solution?

Ban sigs or at least charge for their use.

Cheers,

Neil

I just want to throw a coupla cents in regarding one specific idea that's being bandied about. Namely, paying to post.

Personally, I think that would create a nightmare.

Right now, there are people on this forum who feel they are entitled to post anything they want... and they throw an absolute fit when their posts get deleted. Imagine the size fit those folks would throw if one of their paid posts got deleted. *shudder*

Anyway, I do like the member moderation. Right now, maybe we have stuff slipping by because of the "social loafing" / bystander / diffusion of responsibility effect. That's where a little leadership would come in handy.

Personally, that's also why I sometimes will "call out" some of the stuff I see going on... that way, other members will take a look and see if they, too, think it's worth hitting the report button.

Cheers,
Becky

Remember "way back" in '06?

I keep forgetting how much this forum has grown over the years. Back in '99 or '00 when I joined:

- You had to pay to get access
- EVERY post was moderated and approved before you saw it. In fact, back then it was largely Paul Myers doing the moderating (if memory serves).

What we have here is not perfect. And due to the diversity of the people and personalities we have, there will NEVER be a perfect solution.

I like the way it is now. While I agree there's a bit more "noise", I believe most of that is because of how many members we have now as compared to even 2 years ago.

Maybe you have to dig a little more to get to the nuggets, but they're around.

Maybe the underlying reason for some of the complaints isn't really because the quality has gone down - maybe it's because we don't want to spend the time digging for the gold.

As for the self moderation - I think it's not perfect. I think we could all stand to be a little more proactive in flagging posts, etc.

That includes me

For now, I'm gonna go dig for some more gold.

Happy New Year!

Hi,

If you look on the first page of the main forum you will find posts that should not be there.

Of course that is my opinion. I flagged them. They are still there so obviously my opinion is not shared by many.

This is still a great forum and I think Allen made a brilliant move with the War Room. The main page is not "it" anymore.

George Wright

I don't post much anymore, too busy and the endless soap opera gets old after a while. Like this is the only world and if many of you can't get your word in here the world ends and all sorts of bad will happen to you. Got to say, it actually does not end and when you are gone noone gives a rats ass about it. LOL

This website is not a democracy and for those throwing suggestions around in the tone that you have anything to do with how this place runs, your throwing around imagined weight with no substance to it.

If Allen is reading this thread and is putting considerations to the suggestions maybe consider putting a price back on? Those of us that paid the life time fee way back when, put a hell of a lot more value on this forum and YOU then those that just come in and demand this or that and act like this is their own personal property.

I personally do not care which way or what if anything is done because I do have a life and family issues as well as business that balances me out. If I choose to post I post, If I choose to lurk I lurk... The opinions of certain people matter more to me than others and I read the forum as I always have. What interests me I read and/or follow up on and those that don't hold my interest I stop reading or don't read in the first place.

Over the years Allen has tried everything you can think of and most of the suggestions I have read follow under the been there done that. Some worked better than others but no matter which one was implemented there was always people that didn't like it, no matter which way it went.

Either you want rules and enforcement or you don't. After careful consideration and experimentation over the years that Allen has invested here, I have paid close attention to the results. Either way it went people didn't like but when there was moderators patroling the beaches here there was smooth steady streams of people that cared posting good content.

Times change as do the people, I was a moderator here for a period of time and for those that did not have the privledge of holding the reins I can tell you. What you see in the public posts is hundreds of times worse in private. The same lovely characters we all see and respect turn vicious and nasty behind what they think is closed doors. Threats, lawsuits and hole hell of bitchy winey 2 year olds come out because they did not get their way.

I can highly recommend to many of you if the opportunity does come to become a moderator please volunteer because that way you will see that what many of the suggestions given and ways you think the Warrior Forum operates... You will discover how it does run intimately and you will have the privledge of seeig the results of the implementation of those carefully chosen suggestions.

There is NOT a seminar, classroom or mentoring program that come close to what you will learn behind the scenes here at the Warrior Forum. It is not all candy canes and rainbows but the education you will get will allow you to charge 5 to 10 times what your current fee is for coaching. That is if you can handle it. Most quit the first day, fewer still last the week out.

Those that can last longer than 2 months are Warriors Elite in the true sense of the meaning at the Warrior Forum.

I have been a member since the unisol days and I will still be a member until allen closes the doors and deletes the site off the internet.

I survived being a moderator, WF addiction and every single stage this place has gone through since I became a member.

When you leave, people still keep posting. There maybe a few that post where did he/she go but for the most part they are more into themselves than you ever thought they were into you. Threats of not posting anymore or taking hiatus mean NOTHING except to you and are empty threats. If you want to leave then leave.

Posting about what should be done or demanding this or that fall on deaf ears, mainly the Demanding ones.

If you allow this suggestion to be accepted one thing that you may want to do is out post the negative with good constructive and when people give criticism about what you post, tone of your post or any number of criticisms. Take them into consideration and either alter the way you post or don't, your choice. Defending and going on long rants about why you are the way you are or exposay into apologising about hurting over sensitive feelings to completely acceptable posts. To me is silly and waste of time.

I just skip over those, because apparently I have the ability to do that.

Like it or hate it, people will accept you or they wont, the will like you or love you or not... You have no control over that, for the most part anyway.

Everyone comes from different place and reads through their own filters. What I have learned is most people do not have the same filters so will take things in ways you didn't mean. The ability to compose yourself in ways that the majority comprehend in the same or closest possible way will make you very well off.

Post here, build your skills and then go and put them to use OFF forum.

I don't have anything else to say about other things I have read in this thread.

Thanks,

- Terry

I frequent another (non IM) forum (Fatwallet if you must know!) and there every thread gets rated..

then each member can pick "see threads rated positive" "see all threads"...

so you can easily pick the level of filtering you personally want. and change it anytime to see if you are missing any juuuicy threads

anyone here understand what i mean?

I love this forum. I sincerely do. In a previous life, I used to ship computers all over the country and pull my hair out with delivery problems, customer sc***ups, etc. I was looking for a better way. One day I bought an ebook (don't remember who's) and there was a link to this forum. I clicked on it and said "woah, this IS the place to be". I believed it then and I believe it now. I have tried hard to contribute and add value to this forum. I use the "report post" button whenever I see a pointless rant, a way off-topic thread, blatant spam, etc. I believe that if more of us did the same, there would be no reason for this thread at all. Sure you can bring back the mods., but if just a few more people would take the time to hit that button when the right time comes, we will do fine.

TomG.

John, you raise a very good point.

This forum is quite a respectable tool in the IM community...and that needs to be preserved.

Les, This seems to be a matter of imposing a personal preference on a group. A lot of people like some of those "tips" posts, myself included. And it's a fairly safe bet that other people like the other ones.

If we limited things to "Question, then answer," we'd have an entirely different place. I don't think you'd like it much.

On the question of mods, I'm ambivalent. I don't see things as being all that different than they've ever been. Maybe more of what's always been here, but not much new in the way of trends.

Could we do better? Sure. That's always possible. Nearly any suggestion that's made will have pluses, but it will have minuses, too. Even if only due to conflicting sets of preferences. Member moderation tends toward balancing those in a workable way. Formal moderators are better for getting rid of the edge stuff, but tend not to be as well-balanced.

As an example, Les and I have very different philosophies about how a forum like this should be run. I was always very liberal in terms of what posts I allowed, and tended to whack people publicly for things I thought were outright wrong or damaging.

Les was much more conservative than me, more likely to nuke edgy posts, and tended to do his correction privately, if there was any conversation at all.

My way generated one set of complaints, and Les's generated a different set. Was one better or worse than the other? Depends on who you asked, and what their preference was. Objectively, they were just different views of the same goal.

Every moderator had this challenge, to the degree that their philosophy was visible in action. With member mods, there's room for balance, and there's room for abuse. Same as before.

The biggest challenge with the kind of rapid growth we see here lately is that the people joining for specific promotional reasons are more likely to be aggressively active than the folks joining for learning purposes. So, there's more of the abuse. The blatant stuff gets caught so well by the members now that it's barely noticeable. An even better point is that the load for that is spread among the whole group, rather than being on a small handful of people.

Member moderation also allows for a less benevolent use of Nathan's (I believe) suggestion for a "cabal" who act in concert to "manage" threads. Imagine a group of people deciding they were going to do this based on some agenda other than the good of the group. Wouldn't be difficult at all.

Always consider how your suggestions for good can be used for ill.

All of which is a long way of pointing out why I think John has hit the nail on the head in his focus on leadership. Assuming, that is, that you believe there's a need for something different than we've got now. I'm not sure about that, myself, but it's clearly a matter of preference, on which folks disagree.

The most obvious symbol of the way things could go is what John's calling "hieroglyphics" in WSO titles. Sure, it might work, especially if you use them to push the title area to two lines and get more "space" on the page. That's not the point.

The point is in how people view that section.

Whether that attitude needs adjusting is Allen's call. I don't personally like the mindset behind that stuff, but it's not my forum.

If the members want to adjust an attitude on something, there's a simple approach that goes a long way toward the goal. Call it a two-step program:

Don't do it.
Don't reward it.

Simple, eh?

If you object to the odd symbols in WSO titles, don't buy offers from people who use them. There's no point in PM'ing them and telling them why, since they're going to assume you're just griping, and wouldn't have bought anyway.

If the majority don't like it, and decide not to buy because of it, sales for those offers will drop. This will be noticed, at least by the smart folks.

Note: Unless it breaks the rules or is objectively destructive or damaging to the group, reporting it is usually just wrong. We can create group expectations, but we don't get to make the rules.

If you're going to object to something vocally, give logical reasons. "I don't like it" is fine for making personal decisions, but it's not a useful argument for convincing others. Learn to present your thoughts in a cogent fashion, and understand the difference between preference and fact.

Do that and - guess what? You're a leader.

If you think the place needs more of a certain thing, don't wait for someone else. Provide that thing yourself.

That's being a leader.

If you lead in a direction that no-one wants to follow, you're still doing what you think is right. That's better than most people do.

If we're talking about more formal leadership, that means the same thing, but from a central point: Setting expectations and standards. I think Allen has made those pretty clear. It's the job of the more senior folks here to remind people of them.

Sort of like John is doing with this thread.


Mike, Yep. At that point, Allen and I were the only people who handled that stuff. I was the only moderator here for three years or more.

Like you, I don't see the big problem. Sure, things could use some fine-tuning. That's always been the case and it always will be. But I see more useful stuff posted now than ever before. More crap, too, but that's part of growth.

If you want to grow a prize steer, you'd better be able to handle a little bull____.


Terry, Amen.

A lot of people respond to that with silliness about censorship and other irrelevant arguments. Leaving aside the fact that this is a privately owned site, there's the bigger issue: For every person here, there's a set of preferences about how things should be done. Some of those are mutually exclusive, and some are ill-formed and unworkable. Allowing anything and everything is simply not practical.

So, there has to be some central authority. Since he owns the place, Allen is the logical person to assume that role.

I moderated digital forums for over 20 years. I have never seen one work that didn't have some central authority. One hopes that person is a benign dictator, but either way, they have to have the power - and use it when needed.

I have a very high tolerance for conversational chaos. Probably higher than most people. Still, if you want to focus on a topic, even a general one, you have to understand a simple fact of productivity:

Purpose imposes order.

Chaos is wonderful for creativity, but it sucks for taking effective action.

Again, it's all about balance. You have to find your own.


Paul

I agree that the forum has become inundated with many threads that offer little, if any, help. Introductions, forum beefs and open charities are good examples. Having special sections for certain topics is a good idea... IF those sections get sufficient traffic to see a timely response to your query.

I just checked the various other forums in comparison to this main one. All of them had 25 or less members whereas this one had 500+.

Now, which would you expect to be the best place to get a quick answer? I have posted a query on one forum but it took over a day to get an answer. In all, only 3 people responded and none of them fixed my problem. Anything I ask here gets answered within a few hours, minimum.

It would help significantly if there were some way to put more focus on those special sections and boost the traffic flow through them. Then, people might be more inclined to post there.

Sylvia

Sylvia,

The reason most people post in the main forum
rather than specialist forums is because they
can now get away with it.

The more people who show leadership by posting
in the correct forum, the busier those forums
will become.

John

Self moderation isn't working, even when a thread is removed, it often is put back. It takes time to read and report threads, and sometimes we don't have that time to do it.

But self moderation should also include knowing what is acceptable and what isn't.

If we know that a long post which isn't open to discussion should be in another area or on the blog, then we should post there ourselves.

On one side we should report threads which shouldn't be in the MF, but we using the same knowledge shouldn't post threads that we would report, if they didn't have our name on them.

Be responsible, post in the correct area, use the blog if you want to just put your thoughts, and don't report a thread because it doesn't belong, when you are doing exactly the same thing.

Also, we don't have any way to move the threads (in the self-moderated forum, that is) to the right sub-forum. That is a problem.

TomG.

I'm kind of curious about that myself as I reported a WSO with pretty clear
evidence that there was very questionable activity going on in the WSO and it's still going on right now.

My next step was to contact someone who I thought might be able to escalate it, but I had no idea who that would be.

It was fairly depressing really when I saw the WSO continue to run.

Paul Schlegel

Oh I love what the self-moderators have done to the OT forum. Many of us liked to talk about politics in there - but because some didn't, rather than just staying the heck out of the threads, they put a stop to some, yes heated, but very relevant and interesting topics. Now we are relegated to what the heck is your favorite food, music etc idiocy. Real useful, real interesting. Yet the same people that were the cause of that censorship slammed on us in there are in the main forum breaking any and every rule there ever was. Go figure.

All we have done here is build a playground for meglomaniacs. And it didn't stop the whiners at all - just put them in control. Makes you really want to pay attention to all the "is this ethical" posts, LMAO.

Last time I looked there wasn't an option under the infractions for an "off topic" post.

Allen has defined the rules that he feels are important and they are there for everyone to see. Use the tools he has given us and quit trying to decide what is acceptable.

I was just reading a post in the main forum about "christmas presents", obviously an off topic post. Yet there have been 9 replies so far from people with well over a thousand posts.

They had the choice to report the post or reply to it...

sheesh, until Mr. Says tells me "your" rules are the rules, I'll go by his.

After all, It's HIS forum, he just let's us use it.

Steve

I doubt Steven can see this post as I'm most likely on his substantial ignore list, but I'll take a stab.

Steven, there are infinite gray areas and nuance when it comes to human interaction and perception. For example, if you walked into a professional networking event, you might be perceived as somewhat gouche to blurt out your income if unsolicited. You also might be avoided if you appear to be inflexible in your thinking when discussing strategy, methods and tactics -- yet continue to aggressively participate in and initiate discussions about them. Those sorts of behaviours can't be codified into a set of rules, in my opinion.

I hope that you'll take this post in the spirit in which it's intended.

I just want to chime in really quickly and say that I fully agree with the original post!

We should be able to disagree without becoming disagreeable.

TomG.

Nathan,

Now I'll agree to this statement:

In many ways, I think this statement follows suit of what John's been saying all along about leadership. Leadership in here is about stuardship within this community.

And I think this is what Allen may have had in mind when he made all members active Mods.

Now if everyone does their part in the forum, there shouldn't be a problem.


Just for the record, I also believe what Paul M. stated in that people want their preferences too, and this forum can't afford to have it both ways.

So report when you need to, and use your better judgment when descerning whether or not to do so.


Mary