An Open Letter To Allen & The Moderators

by John Taylor 185 replies
Dear Everyone,


Yes, this is Allen's forum but we are all Moderators so
this involves you too.


I'm just one of many people who give a damn about the
Warrior Forum. I've been around here longer than the
vast majority and I've seen this forum go through many
ups and downs.


I believe we are currently witnessing a decline into
what could become one of the worst downs many of us
have ever seen.


The main forum is becoming a free for all with people
posting..

  • Questionable requests for financial help
  • Topics that belong on personal blogs
  • Threads designed to promote upcoming WSO offers
  • Subjects that are completely off topic
  • Blatant advertising and self promotion
  • Meaningless crap designed to raise post count
  • Content that is copied and pasted from elsewhere
  • Threads that belong in the specialist forums
  • The list could go on..


The WSO Forum is turning into a three ring circus with
all manner of hieroglyphics in titles, a number of
illegal offers being posted and, sad to say, it's also
becoming far too attractive to thieves and scammers.


While giving responsibility for Moderation to the
members is in theory a positive step. In practice I
don't think that they way it's currently panning out is
in the best interests of the community as a whole.


In short, I think we need to bring back some control
and leadership in this community. Democracy without
leadership isn't working.


John
#main internet marketing discussion forum #allen #letter #moderators #open
  • Profile picture of the author JasonParker
    I'll be part of the John Taylor uprising.
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  • Profile picture of the author KimW
    John,
    I think you are right on target.
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  • Profile picture of the author JayXtreme
    I ran out of thanks today John.. al that sense you are talking is making me thank you plenty..

    I agree whole heartedly...

    I'm not one for saying what should happen, or what should be done etc.. but I think you are right, and I do hope things get better, with or without Allen's intervention..

    Peace

    Jay
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  • Profile picture of the author RobinSkeen
    Absolute agreement John. Cheers.
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    • Profile picture of the author DavidO
      As Aye! Although I've been guilty of some of the lesser breaches myself, I agree totally. I've even come away from the forum feeling a little sour a few times recently and as a result I've been absent on a more frequent basis.

      But as I look over the past three years the WF has been an overwhelmingly positive force that I hate to see degraded.

      Let's hope some positive developments come out of this.
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  • Profile picture of the author lgibbon
    Banned
    Well said John,
    And just to add to your list,
    The never ending self promotional posts
    that have been bumped for months.
    These would have been locked long ago.
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    • Profile picture of the author Martin Avis
      Amen to that.
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      • Profile picture of the author Keith Boisvert
        Agreed. Ever since we went to the self moderation aspect I have found myself here less and less. I still appreciate and enjoy the forum of course, but I get tired of weeding through the crap to find the good stuff.

        I know there were flaws with the 'old way', but at least the forum was a pleasure to be around, and the posts such as described above were the exception, not the norm.

        I accept the way things are regardless, but if I can help in any way, consider this me tossing my hat in the ring.

        Keith
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        • Profile picture of the author David_Thompson
          Let me just say it's about bloody time someone said something....

          --David
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          • Profile picture of the author Dave OSullivan
            Good Job John and well said David,

            New Year, new start, things will be a lot better for it.

            Dave.

            Originally Posted by David_Thompson View Post

            Let me just say it's about bloody time someone said something....

            --David
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    • Profile picture of the author Kim Standerline
      I've noticed a lot of these as well

      And for the record, I never ever thought self moderation was a good idea.

      Backing you to the hilt John
      Kim


      Originally Posted by lgibbon View Post

      Well said John,
      And just to add to your list,
      The never ending self promotional posts
      that have been bumped for months.
      These would have been locked long ago.
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  • Profile picture of the author Ron Douglas
    I haven't always agreed with the moderators on the old forum, but I much prefer the way things used to be. IMO, this forum is so successful it should have paid moderators.
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    • Profile picture of the author raynman
      Originally Posted by Ron Douglas View Post

      I haven't always agreed with the moderators on the old forum, but I much prefer the way things used to be. IMO, this forum is so successful it should have paid moderators.
      I don't know of many forums that have paid Mods but because of how important this place is for so many in making a living it would make sense.

      In my opinion, it would really go a long way towards protecting people new to IM from being exploited by sharks who prey on the ill-informed and desperate.
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
    Thanks John,

    Because I believe people should become the change they want to see, I will report more of the questionable posts than I already do.

    Usually I just go after the blatant spammers, but now it'll be any post I read that doen't belong here. I will try to use my best judgment, but can't guarantee I will get it right every time. However, any posts I flag will be for what I think is the good of the forum.

    On a side note, it doesn't matter to me if you have 1 post or 5,000 - if it doesn't belong here, I'm flagging it.

    Here's to a brighter and better WF in 2009!

    All the best,
    Michael Oksa
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    • Profile picture of the author Doug
      Originally Posted by Michael Oksa View Post

      Thanks John,

      Because I believe people should become the change they want to see, I will report more of the questionable posts than I already do.

      Usually I just go after the blatant spammers, but now it'll be any post I read that doen't belong here. I will try to use my best judgment, but can't guarantee I will get it right every time. However, any posts I flag will be for what I think is the good of the forum.

      On a side note, it doesn't matter to me if you have 1 post or 5,000 - if it doesn't belong here, I'm flagging it.

      Here's to a brighter and better WF in 2009!

      All the best,
      Michael Oksa

      Michael,

      Just wanted to openly thank you for stepping up and being part of the solution John states in his OP.

      I have reported blatant rule breakers in the past, this is easy - I have no doubt you will use your best judgment when practicing Moderation on the less obvious inappropriate posts.

      When more do the same a couple of things will occur. First, the obvious removal of blatant rule breaks on a regular basis. Second, and I see this as equally as good, we will all become better at being relevant in our posting because we know others are watching closely.

      Fear of the consequences will help more of us to improve our relevant posting. Hopefully.

      I too will step up and practice both being relevant and keeping a keen eye out for that which doesn't belong.

      Doug

      PS - Thank you too John Taylor!
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  • Profile picture of the author raynman
    I've been a part of a good few other forums and just took for granted that this one already had Mods like they did. It has been pretty well run for a forum without Mods. I can see you would need some to clean up messes and contain somethings before they get out of control. Just because we are all adults here doesn't mean that we will all act like one.

    The WF is a great tool for someone like me who just wants to learn and, hopefully, to help others learn. A few Moderators would really help cut down on the clutter and clean up things making it easier to do so.

    Sorry if my post count or joined date doesn't qualify me to speak on the matter. I just know from experience in other forums how beneficial Mods can be and believe that it would be the same here.
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  • Profile picture of the author greff
    Right on, John.

    I especially object to "Threads designed to promote upcoming WSO offers"

    I personally know someone who would post here just to create a ruckus with the hope that people would see his sig file and click through.

    Is this what happens when anarchists take over?
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  • Profile picture of the author Monetize
    I agree, we need real mods.

    And HAPPY NEW YEAR EVERYBODY!!!
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    • Profile picture of the author Martin Avis
      Personally I believe that banning sigs completely from the main forum would cut the noise to signal ratio considerably. In a forum where discussion is the primary objective, sigs seem strangely out of place.

      Martin
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  • Profile picture of the author Ralf Skirr
    Yes John,

    I have wondered about the changes in the forum myself, seeing lots of self-serving posts coming up and lots of useless posts.

    I'm not sure if it's due to how the forum is moderated or simply because the number of users has increased a lot.

    This is probably something the 'old' mods can evaluate best, because they know how much crap they had to delete.

    Democracy without
    leadership isn't working.
    True!

    Ralf
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  • Profile picture of the author absolutelee
    John, I haven't been a part of this forum for very long, but I would have to agree with you. I noticed a number of weird requests for money just before Christmas. I would hope, however, that the forum is not made so inaccessible that new members like me can't make a real contribution.

    Happy New Year!
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  • Profile picture of the author Lindsay Brynn
    I couldn't agree more. I'm relatively new and still feel like I'm getting used to things around here, but you put into words a lot of what I was thinking. Hopefully we will see some changes around here.
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  • Profile picture of the author tommygadget
    I've nuked a whole bunch of threads recently by repeatedly reporting them. If we all do the same instead of complaining, the forum will clean up nicely and fast. Don't be afraid to use the report post button when you see something that just doesn't belong. When you see the results, you'll be glad you did.

    TomG.
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    • Profile picture of the author Alton Hargrave
      Self moderating is sometimes like mob-rule. Remember the old western movies where the whole town is ready to hang some poor fellow that they are sure did it? After all is sorted out, the real reason the townies wanted to hang the guy is just to satisfy their animosity toward life and it's frustrations.

      We could fire all the police and let the drivers regulate the driving on the roads, but we would soon have individuals racing up and down the highway knocking off the other guys ( who they say are speeding).

      People are people. They want a thin book of rules for themselves to follow, but a very thick book of rules for their neighbor to abide to.

      I think moderators would be best. There is a lot of "taking advantage" going on here. Yes, many of the posts have nothing to do with internet marketing. Every day, someone posts a request to "check my site". Really! Blatant advertising!

      People are most comfortable in a place that has rules and order.
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  • Profile picture of the author John Taylor
    Nathan,

    I'm not suggesting that there's anything
    wrong with a diverse and varied range of
    topics to debate. However, we have other
    specialist forums to discuss Copywriting,
    SEO, CPA and other topics.

    You can put it anyway you want, but don't
    suggest that my intention was to criticize
    Allen or the other Admins. I know what it's
    like to be a MOD here.

    I certainly wouldn't want to be a part of any
    "cartel" or other means of manipulating the
    forum. There's enough of that going on already.

    John
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    • Profile picture of the author raynman
      Like I have said earlier (just in case you care) I agree with needing Mods.

      I am curious, though, about where you would put the thread started by UnmaskingCPA about CPA? For me, if it was in the Ad Networks forum I wouldn't have seen it. I am new to IM and am still learning what all the aspects are. I considered that thread to be an introduction to it and will now be looking at that other forum. It might have been good for someone in that thread to say, "by the way, we have a forum where things like this is discussed more in depth" I would have gone right away to that. THe thread starter might not have known about that forum either but if he did and started the thread there it would have flown over my radar.

      I guess my point is the general forum is a good place for new guys like me to get some basic information on areas within IM that can point me in the right direction to get even more knowledgeable about it.
      Originally Posted by John Taylor View Post

      Nathan,

      I'm not suggesting that there's anything
      wrong with a diverse and varied range of
      topics to debate. However, we have other
      specialist forums to discuss Copywriting,
      SEO, CPA and other topics.

      You can put it anyway you want, but don't
      suggest that my intention was to criticize
      Allen or the other Admins. I know what it's
      like to be a MOD here.

      I certainly wouldn't want to be a part of any
      "cartel" or other means of manipulating the
      forum. There's enough of that going on already.

      John
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    • Profile picture of the author John Taylor
      Originally Posted by NathanFalkner View Post


      You just want the absolute power to delete, lock,
      and/or move threads and posts based on your own
      unilateral judgment as to their suitability for the WF?
      Nope.

      That's what we had before. You can let all members
      think they're "moderators" when in fact a dozen former
      moderators could run the show. How? By talking to
      one another about what threads and posts need to be
      removed, and then by collectively hitting the 'report'
      button. How is that a BAD thing, when the people in the
      cartel are all former moderators who at one point or
      another had their own little private forum in which to
      presumably share information about bad members, bad
      posts, etc? I'm failing to see the flaw in my argument.

      John, here's my point. You and the former moderators
      can take control of the main discussion forum overnight
      and start making the positive changes that you feel are
      necessary. Start talking to each other. Start coordinating
      your efforts. Trust me, you former mods don't need to be
      bestowed the formal title of 'moderator' or given any kind
      of special privileges to start cleaning up the forum.
      I was Moderator for around 6 months and, quite
      frankly, that was long enough.

      What makes you think that any of the "former
      moderators" can spare the time to "clean up"
      the forum?

      John
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      • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
        Originally Posted by John Taylor View Post

        What makes you think that any of the "former
        moderators" can spare the time to "clean up"
        the forum?
        John
        John, I personally wouldn't take this job for 7 figures a year, but if not
        the former mods, then who?

        Your thread says that we should bring back the moderators. I'm not
        arguing that at all. I'm all for it.

        But if the former mods don't do it, who will?

        Do you think there are a sufficient enough people who regularly attend
        this forum, seeing what a thankless and overwhelming job being a mod
        is, who would even want the job?

        Heck, we can't get this place cleaned up with the members doing the
        job themselves, so if experienced mods don't do it I don't see anybody
        doing it.

        Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe there are a few folks here who welcome the
        challenge.

        I hope so.
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      • Profile picture of the author Kim Standerline
        Because for some weird reason they seem to think all the previous mods were on a power trip and are dying to do it again lol

        Originally Posted by John Taylor View Post

        Nope.

        What makes you think that any of the "former
        moderators" can spare the time to "clean up"
        the forum?

        John
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        • Profile picture of the author David_Thompson
          stop posting so damm fast guys just running to the kitchen to get
          popcorn and a coke and I can't afford to miss the ring side actions...LOL

          It seems like gloves are coming off, which is a bit silly...Guys we all
          know this was coming John just had the balls to say it.

          We all could sit around a pussy foot around the issue but if we don't take
          a stand and air out these issues big brother will, and to me that is going backwards...

          --David
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  • Profile picture of the author valerieSONORA
    Exactly. Half the stuff in the main forum doesn't even go there. If it belonged on the wf at all, it would be the Off Topic section.
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  • Profile picture of the author Paul Duxbury
    John

    I completely agree and sad to say it's one of the reasons I have been here far less than I used to be. The range of issues you highlighted plus a few other unsavoury matters keep me away.

    Yes I could spend time reporting posts advocating violence, self promoting and the likes but I simply don't have the time.

    Thanks for raising the issue.

    Take care

    Paul
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    • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
      Originally Posted by Paul Duxbury View Post

      John

      I completely agree and sad to say it's one of the reasons I have been here far less than I used to be. The range of issues you highlighted plus a few other unsavoury matters keep me away.

      Yes I could spend time reporting posts advocating violence, self promoting and the likes but I simply don't have the time.

      Thanks for raising the issue.

      Take care

      Paul
      Valid point removed to avoid further infractions.
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      • Profile picture of the author Paul Duxbury
        Thanks Michael for proving my point - one of the current lurkers steps out of the shadows to express a view and is immediately slammed as "You're only a part of the problem then."

        I have actually reported the poster who was suggesting the use of violence as a means to controlling people but hey you wouldn't know that because you want to put people down as well. Thanks for making me feel so welcome.

        Very kindest regards

        Paul

        Originally Posted by Michael Oksa View Post

        So, you don't like it here as much, but you're not willing to do anything about it?

        You're only a part of the problem then.

        Think about it this way. How would you know a post advocates violence or self-promoting? Obviously, by reading it, right? So...if you have time to read a post, you can spare an extra 10 seconds to report it.

        On the other hand, if you don't have the time to give a little back, and make the forum a better place, then less frequent visits are fine by me.

        All the best,
        Michael
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        • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
          Originally Posted by Paul Duxbury View Post

          Thanks Michael for proving my point - one of the current lurkers steps out of the shadows to express a view and is immediately slammed as "You're only a part of the problem then."

          I have actually reported the poster who was suggesting the use of violence as a means to controlling people but hey you wouldn't know that because you want to put people down as well. Thanks for making me feel so welcome.

          Very kindest regards

          Paul
          Another point removed to avoid possibility of another infraction for sharing my opinion.
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  • Profile picture of the author Rupps
    I agree as well. It's getting harder to read through posts and find useful content as it's mostly self-promoting stuff.
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  • Profile picture of the author Glenn Grundberg
    I'm with you too John...100%

    Allen: with all due respect, sir...It's not working

    If you need volunteers, I will do what I can and give what time I can to this excellent place. It wouldn't be but a few hours a week that I could spare right now, but if called...I will serve.

    Peace, and Happy New Year!

    Gman
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  • Profile picture of the author zerofill
    Well...I am all for having moderators back. If we don't have the ones that used to like to get delete happy via personal preference. Or didn't like threads that were bordering on a topic/niche they were in. No one can convince me that it didn't happen all the time. Because it did...I watched it daily... IF you can find actual unbiased mods...then I say go for it.

    EDIT: Also I am not saying all mods were like that...only a chosen few...
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    • Profile picture of the author lgibbon
      Banned
      Originally Posted by zerofill View Post

      Well...I am all for having moderators back. If we don't have the ones that used to like to get delete happy via personal preference. Or didn't like threads that were bordering on a topic/niche they were in. No one can convince me that it didn't happen all the time. Because it did...I watched it daily... IF you can find actual unbiased mods...then I say go for it.

      EDIT: Also I am not saying all mods were like that...only a chosen few...
      That was only in the minds of the abusers and their cronies that were caught.
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      • Profile picture of the author zerofill
        Originally Posted by lgibbon View Post

        That was only in the minds of the abusers and their cronies that were caught.
        Seemed to be pretty widespread view... (wasn't my threads)
        But a hell of a lot of good ones I was following...

        It was a fact...however only a couple mods were guilty of it.
        It was either that or there were people who needed to be taught how to delete a post rather than a thread...Not sure which it was.
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      • Profile picture of the author Elmer Hurlstone
        Happy New Year All!

        There have been several, at least from my perspective, valid points made in this thread beginning with John's initial post.

        Most seem to agree that things are not as they once were. But then nothing ever is.

        Some say there were problems the "way things were." No doubt there were. Perfection is rare.

        Some allege some former moderators may have been less than objective in some instances. In that all of the former WF moderators were human beings that's likely true. We each come here with our own ideas and opinions–many very strongly held.

        Dropping a "MOD" badge on someone will not necessarily change the way they think or act. The more legalistic will continue to be so. Those that are a bit more permissive or liberal in approach will remain such.

        On the whole, in spite of their innate humanity, I believe the former mods did much more good than harm.

        Over the past few months I've discussed the "mod v. member-mod" with several Warriors. A couple have posted in this thread, most have not. My totally unscientific, hearsay only, conclusion from the conversations I've participated in is that WF was better off with designated moderators.

        Only one person I've personally communicated with–himself a former mod–prefers it as is. At least three other former mods, although not personally desiring to jump back in the saddle, believe WF was a better community with designated moderators.

        I agree with John, I, too, would like to see a return of the mods.

        Elmer Hurlstone
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    • Profile picture of the author TheRichJerksNet
      Originally Posted by zerofill View Post

      Well...I am all for having moderators back. If we don't have the ones that used to like to get delete happy via personal preference. Or didn't like threads that were bordering on a topic/niche they were in. No one can convince me that it didn't happen all the time. Because it did...I watched it daily... IF you can find actual unbiased mods...then I say go for it.

      EDIT: Also I am not saying all mods were like that...only a chosen few...
      Originally Posted by Scott Ames View Post

      It should be simple. The posted rules are the guide, but many will flag a thread because they simply don't agree, or they don't like that person.

      I never worry about repeated questions. It bugs some people and they like to yell " Use the search feature".. Well, they could, but it may not be the most current answer to the question. Someone may have a completely different answer. This is a forum, a discussion, not a knowlege base. Subjects will
      come up over and over as new people come and go.
      Fully agree with both of you ... I have seen many useful threads go away that would have been very helpful to many including newbies, threads that had very valuable information.

      They got gone because someone did not like the op or someone posting in the thread or the fact that it was very close to someone elses competition.

      This is the way most forums actually run.. John Doe has been there since 1901 and he is smarter, knows more, and only likes certain people so what he says goes.. Eventhough John Doe is only a mod and not the forum owner. The exact reason I do not join forums ...

      Spam or Junk threads anybody can see, but other information who is to say what is good or bad ?? Remember ones mans trash is another mans goldmine..

      James
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      • Profile picture of the author rperales
        Personally...

        ..let us remember the time when a lot of new people come in here and
        ask questions and instead of answering regardless of the question, that
        person was put down..

        Lazy, use the search button, etc..Heck at least they had the decency to
        ask first..are they asking now?..

        Shouldn't we say that we are getting what we had coming and now, the
        bad out weighs the good..

        Let's go back to answer questions regardless how many times we have
        heard it before and may I say from different people mind you..

        Perhaps the warrior forum should go back to in order to be here we had to have
        made some purchase or use Host For Profit or something like that..

        However, I personally prefer to make the Warrior Forum with a lot of classy
        marketers like it used to be..wouldn't that be more productive?..

        Answer, talk about, marketing and how to make money is my suggestions..

        Only then can we out weigh the bad..

        rey
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        • Profile picture of the author skydivedad
          This whole thread reminds me of Archie Bunkers theme song "Those Were The Days". Just like Archie Bunker makes judgments about today by comparing it with anecdotal and selective memory snippets of some nonexistent "Past" and reality be damned. Yes the IM world is changing and so is the Warrior Forum. In my view the only reason it has stayed on top for all these years has been the ability of this forum to adapt and change to reflect the modern evolving face of Internet Marketing.

          There are 100's of thousands of Internet Marketers who weren't around 2 or 3 years ago. I salute Allen's foresight and ability to change processes, systems, structure and the organization to better serve the IM community as a whole, as it is today.

          I Salute those in this thread with the "Stones" to provide a dissenting voice, if there is an anecdotal change for the worse in this forum (IMHO) it's the snarky reaction to dissenting opinion and view points that aren't the typical "IM Group Think" that taints many of the threads recently. I counted several examples in this thread itself. I'm just as convinced, as you Old Timers lament it is not, that the Warrior Forum today is a better place than it was 2, 5 or 10 years ago. Maybe its because I'm way more emotionally invested in my business than I am with what goes on around here. I'm just as convinced I'll be reading snarky comments to my dissent shortly. If I lament a loss it's the lack of respect for the diversity of opinion that is the face of the 21st Century Internet Marketing Community and the lack of tolerance exhibited by many here with large Post counts.

          All The Best
          Paul
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  • Profile picture of the author R Hagel
    It's kind of like when I take my dogs to parks or even hotels that allow dogs. When I see someone else's dog has left a mess, I clean it up while I'm picking up after my own dogs. My hope is that the park or hotel will continue allowing me to visit with my dogs if we keep the area clean.

    Same goes for the Warrior Forum. I LIKE visiting here. And so I always hit the report button on the "crap" in hopes that this place stays clean... so Allen will continue to let us all visit.

    Cheers,
    Becky
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  • Profile picture of the author Mike McBride
    John, I'm going to offer a divergent viewpoint. Right now
    there are currently 1,000+ people on this forum. If you
    visit Alexa, you'll also notice that since August of 2008
    the rank has been steadily rising.
    What difference does that make, if 900 of them are posting pure, unadulterated crap?

    Alexa rank rising? Yeah, like a fever in an ill patient.

    You and I might not per
    se like some or all of the topics that are talked about on
    this forum, but it's important to acknowledge that this is
    a very diverse place. What might seem like rubbish to us
    might be entertaining and/or of interest to someone else.
    Since when was this forum meant to be simply entertaining or "of interest?" I thought it was about making money, with an emphasis on internet marketing. That's what I come here for - serious discussion of marketing and making money (with the occasional levity provided by the Rileys/Segals/HillbillyMarketers of the forum.)

    I'm with John and the others 100%, as I've stated previously in PM's with a few other members.

    Thank you very much, John, and a Happy New Year to you.
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      You know, there are so many ironies in this thread that I'm just sitting here
      shaking my head at the whole thing.

      For starters, while John makes very good points, the thread itself is still a
      rant and something I think Allen and many other members are tired of.

      It's kind of a no win situation. You're damned if you do and you're damned if
      you don't.

      Personally, and I mean this sincerely and from the bottom of my heart as
      this is a New Year and I truly am trying to change my behavior, I honestly
      don't know what you can post here anymore.

      I make a post with tips on doing something and I get replies...

      "This is a discussion forum, not a place to give tips."

      I make a post on ways to organize yourself or think clearer and I get...

      "This belongs on your blog or in Mind Warriors".

      I make a post asking for help with something and I get...

      "This belongs in the programmer's section."

      I make a post about my success and I get...

      "This is not a place to talk about your success. Nobody wants to hear it."
      (though it seems many are excluded from this rule)

      Bottom line: Almost everything I post here is met with ridicule. So ultimately
      I decided that beginning this year, I'd make no more new threads to this
      forum, since I don't know how to use it properly.

      Instead, I will simply confine myself to answering simple and basic questions
      that members have like, "How do I use article marketing for my blog?"
      which in fact, I just responded to.

      I'm hoping by adopting this new rule for myself, I can stay out of trouble.

      There is a point to what I am saying and I'm going to make it.

      I consider myself an intelligent person. But if I can't seem to make a post
      here without people jumping down my throat for everything I say, then
      maybe not all of the blame goes to the poster.

      It's certainly something to consider.

      As to the problems of this forum, heck. If I can't figure out how to create
      a thread that doesn't get me blasted, then I certainly don't have the
      answers to those problems.

      I'll leave those to members who are a lot smarter than myself.

      And now I'm going to go and answer some members questions and see
      if I can maybe do some good around here.
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      • Profile picture of the author tommygadget
        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

        Bottom line: Almost everything I post here is met with ridicule.
        With all due respect, I don't think that is true at all. Me thinks you are using hyperbole here to make a point. The higher a person's profile, the bigger the target. With that high a post count, you'll get a lot of fans and a lot of... well... shall we say non-fans...

        TomG.

        PS - You're also skirting the border about making this post about you. I certainly don't think that was John's point.
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        • Profile picture of the author koolphoto
          I wholeheartedly agree with John and think that the forum needs a little more policing.

          I think that the Warrior Special Offers forum is out of control especially now that people are using as John puts it, "hieroglyphics in titles". I don't think it should be allowed in titles or anywhere in a post. I think it is not attractive and it doesn't add anything to the quality of the title or post.

          I think there needs to be some type of overseeing panel for the WSO forum. I think that there should possibly be a quality control panel formed that an WSO must be submitted to for review before it can be posted.

          Or another idea is that anyone who wants to submit WSO's needs to have a higher post count then now which shows they are actually contributing to the community and know what they are talking about. I still think a panel needs to be set up to review maybe the first 5 to 10 WSO's of a contributor before they are allowed full WSO posting status whereby the panel would only need check out their contributing WSO on a long term basis of maybe once a year.

          I also think that anyone who posts just to raise their post count should be put on a moderation status where their posts need to be approved.

          This is a great forum but I think some are trying to take advantage of it without giving back to it.
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          • Profile picture of the author capriliz
            Originally Posted by koolphoto View Post


            I think that the Warrior Special Offers forum is out of control especially now that people are using as John puts it, "hieroglyphics in titles". I don't think it should be allowed in titles or anywhere in a post. I think it is not attractive and it doesn't add anything to the quality of the title or post.
            As members/moderators, we can control the use of the hieroglyphics.

            Just don't click through!

            It won't take long for contributors to realize that the CTR drops or doesn't exist when the "weird" characters are used....attempting to grab our attention as though we are two year olds attracted to odd things.....oh, look at the blinking lights!

            I have to admit that I am guilty of what Robin mentioned earlier. I don't have a high post count, so I figure my strike would not amount to much - I will just let one of the big guns get it. Time for me to be more responsible, also, if I enjoy this forum so much.
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            • Profile picture of the author rperales
              Personally...

              ..I gotta say about the past..we can go back and learn again from it because
              that is the reason we are here on this thread..the way this forum have
              gone down..again, isn't that the reason why we are on this thread?..

              I'm going with what I have read on this thread, I haven't been around awhile...

              If the past is worthless today..then how come people are always talking
              about from the past like "Think and Grow Rich..amony others are they not from
              the past..perhaps we should bring this up..This Is A Marketing Forum and we
              want to keep it that way what else is there?..

              I'd tell you that the reason this forum has gone down is not because of what is
              happening today..it's what have been happeining in the past..You know, the
              future comes after past.

              There are a lot of good quality marketers right now they have a good
              chance of bringing the vaue back up..just by doing good deeds and I mean good
              as doing good deed wether you like the person that needs help or recent that
              person..simply because it is the good deed that counts it gives value to the
              world...

              What merit is there to only love those who love you?

              By the way..I am the last person to get caught living in the past..I live in the NOW
              after many years of working on myself..

              Personally...I am not a Marketer of any kind..but I know for a fact that going after
              something that we want by just trying marketing will never happen to most folks
              and the reason is?..We must first work on ourselves on what is keeping us from
              getting what we want..

              If we do our good deeds today...guess what will happen when today becomes the
              past!
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        • Profile picture of the author Susie Norman
          I'm brand new and I'm here hoping to gain knowledge from the experiences of others. I think that the posts I just read are from seasoned, dedicated posters and I will be making it a point to follow their posts. I don't know how it was but maybe can contribute to the way it should be.
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      • Profile picture of the author valerieSONORA
        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post


        It's kind of a no win situation. You're damned if you do and you're damned if
        you don't.
        I agree with that.

        Remember when the whole front page of the WF was filled with porn spam?? And there happened to be no moderators on at the time so there was nobody to delete them? And then everyone wanted the members to be mods so we ourselves could take care of it.

        Meanwhile half the first page of it was filled with porn spam and nothing anyone could do, only a mod could come and delete it.

        And now members are now mods people want it the other way.

        So it seems there is no easy answer.

        Oh I found a possible solution. I would like to be a mod and nuke all the ppl I don't like. I mean I would never do that. Ahem.



        I consider myself an intelligent person. But if I can't seem to make a post
        here without people jumping down my throat for everything I say, then
        maybe not all of the blame goes to the poster.
        I don't agree with that. You're being too sensitive. Look at how many thanks you got. You could probably post a hello and get 10 thanks. Most of your posts are met with positive replies and only a very few are not but you focus more on the few that are not positive.
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        • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
          Originally Posted by valerieSONORA View Post


          I don't agree with that. You're being too sensitive. Look at how many thanks you got. You could probably post a hello and get 10 thanks. Most of your posts are met with positive replies and only a very few are not but you focus more on the few that are not positive.

          Valerie, I can't even argue with that. You're right. It's just a few people
          who constantly get on my case. It's just after 2 years of it, well, there is
          only so much anybody can take.

          Anyway, it won't be a problem anymore and I'm going to be a lot more
          relaxed because of it.
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      • Profile picture of the author lgibbon
        Banned
        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post



        I make a post with tips on doing something and I get replies...

        "This is a discussion forum, not a place to give tips."
        I think the idea is someone asks a question
        and someone replies with tips.

        Not, that someone that takes it upon himself to decide
        what tips everyone else should be reading day after day,
        and when he reaches the end, starts all over again
        in case anyone missed them.
        That is what blogs are for, then we get the choice.

        I know everyone is going to say we don't have to read them,
        but with over 50% of the posts here being of the lecture type,
        it's getting increasingly more difficult to avoid them.
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      • Profile picture of the author JamesFraze
        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

        You know, there are so many ironies in this thread
        Bottom line: Almost everything I post here is met with ridicule. So ultimately
        I decided that beginning this year, I'd make no more new threads to this
        forum, since I don't know how to use it properly.
        Steve,

        I like reading your posts. You provide immense value and inspire me to reach higher.

        I don't think that anyone should be slammed for being helpful or posting tips. If there is a discussion about another topic, cool, that's a different thread - but if I make a thread that is meant to be helpful, I do it because I want to help people. I feel that I've been helped so much that this is only right.

        As for the wrong behavior on forums - I'm guilty of it, at least my first 15 posts were simply me talking to myself so I could post links. After that I think I have contributed my share for the bandwidth I'm taking.

        Honestly if someone tells me my posts aren't welcome I will turn up my techno soundtrack louder, and then go on my merry way - who cares if they don't like it. I'm doing my best to be helpful. Now, if someone has advice to make me better or how to work with the flow - cool, I'll follow it, especially if they respectfully tell me and don't attack. If they do attack, just ignore. They aren't worth the brain cells.

        What exactly can someone do to me if they don't like my post (assuming it's not purposely intending to hurt or disrupt anything)? Nothing. Anger only holds the person that holds on to it.

        Keep posting good content Steve, they are just jealous! Good content is the lifeblood of the forum.
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      • Profile picture of the author Norma Holt
        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

        You know, there are so many ironies in this thread that I'm just sitting here
        shaking my head at the whole thing.

        For starters, while John makes very good points, the thread itself is still a
        rant and something I think Allen and many other members are tired of.

        It's kind of a no win situation. You're damned if you do and you're damned if
        you don't.

        Personally, and I mean this sincerely and from the bottom of my heart as
        this is a New Year and I truly am trying to change my behavior, I honestly
        don't know what you can post here anymore.

        I make a post with tips on doing something and I get replies...

        "This is a discussion forum, not a place to give tips."

        I make a post on ways to organize yourself or think clearer and I get...

        "This belongs on your blog or in Mind Warriors".

        I make a post asking for help with something and I get...

        "This belongs in the programmer's section."

        I make a post about my success and I get...

        "This is not a place to talk about your success. Nobody wants to hear it."
        (though it seems many are excluded from this rule)

        Bottom line: Almost everything I post here is met with ridicule. So ultimately
        I decided that beginning this year, I'd make no more new threads to this
        forum, since I don't know how to use it properly.

        Instead, I will simply confine myself to answering simple and basic questions
        that members have like, "How do I use article marketing for my blog?"
        which in fact, I just responded to.

        I'm hoping by adopting this new rule for myself, I can stay out of trouble.

        There is a point to what I am saying and I'm going to make it.

        I consider myself an intelligent person. But if I can't seem to make a post
        here without people jumping down my throat for everything I say, then
        maybe not all of the blame goes to the poster.

        It's certainly something to consider.

        As to the problems of this forum, heck. If I can't figure out how to create
        a thread that doesn't get me blasted, then I certainly don't have the
        answers to those problems.

        I'll leave those to members who are a lot smarter than myself.

        And now I'm going to go and answer some members questions and see
        if I can maybe do some good around here.
        Like Steven. I too have been shaking my head over the issue and points raised. While I greatly respect John Taylor and his wonderful contributions I also respect and enjoy those of Steven and the like. It is no fun having people breathing down your neck and removing your threads that were honest and forthright and usually on topic.

        When certain threads of mine were persistently removed by a moderator who obviously took exception to things I raised and ditched my threads it took me about 6 months before I came back. At that time the forum had changed and so had the format.

        I enjoy it now more than ever and although some of the topics are a little 'off topic' they shed a ray of light into a rather dull world at a time when humor and a little distraction from the gloom is not all a bad thing.

        Checking out the forum is one of the first things I do now every day and I think if we report the bad posts and cut down on those who think it is just a place for handouts ( a few recently have been very concerning) I think we will still have a wonderful place to hang out, make friends, pass on advice, report on our activities and experiences and help those in need.

        That's more than 2 cents worth, lets say 5 cents.

        God bless

        Norma
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  • Profile picture of the author Platinum Matt
    John, I totally disagree.

    I think it may need some rules tightening up to deal with some of the points you mentioned BUT having the USER as the moderator is by FAR the best method I've come across on any forum.

    Great system as it is IMO.
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  • Profile picture of the author Tim Franklin
    I will have to join the majority opinion here,

    I did notice a difference in the topics posted when we changed over, I thought that perhaps it was a temporary thing, new members posting different topics, since the new format attracted a lot of members and some inactive members to start posting.

    However over time, it seems like a little air has gone out of the tire, easily fixed, or at least easy to say that.

    I am not sure what the solution is, as we are an evolving community while we may wish to go back in time, the truth is that we cannot because we are no longer exactly like the old community was in the past, but I do remember being more interested in keeping up with the main forum and now I do not visit every day like I did in the past.

    Thanks for posting this worthy topic, I am sure as every one here we all love the warrior forum in any form it takes.

    happy new year,
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  • Profile picture of the author zerofill
    I guess one thing that can be considered is this...

    Allen tried the change for a reason...The moderation wasn't working as is...to many complaints. Now the moderation isn't working to everyones expectations as it is...too many complaints...

    Catch 22...

    Personally I feel the member moderation hasn't been in place long enough to really tell how well it works. It would actually be nice to have Allen chime in and give an idea of how many posts actually are removed via member moderation.

    I do notice that it seems we all catch the spammers quick.
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
    Paul, John, and others....

    My apologies for over-reacting. I am in the midst of some very serious family issues, and I have a feeling that is bringing out the worst of me here at the WF.

    Paul, you're a good guy, and I have no issue with you. Sorry for being a jerk - that's just not my style.

    John, you did what you thought was right, and while I disagree - no hard feelings.

    Others, sorry for sidetracking this worthy discussion. Now, back to the main topic.

    All the best,
    Michael Oksa
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Duxbury
      Thanks Michael I appreciate you taking the time to come back and post that.

      I hope your family issues are soon resolved

      Regards

      Paul

      Originally Posted by Michael Oksa View Post

      Paul, John, and others....

      My apologies for over-reacting. I am in the midst of some very serious family issues, and I have a feeling that is bringing out the worst of me here at the WF.

      Paul, you're a good guy, and I have no issue with you. Sorry for being a jerk - that's just not my style.

      John, you did what you thought was right, and while I disagree - no hard feelings.

      Others, sorry for sidetracking this worthy discussion. Now, back to the main topic.

      All the best,
      Michael Oksa
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  • Profile picture of the author robertdeangelo
    Banned
    [DELETED]
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    • Profile picture of the author Glenn Grundberg
      Originally Posted by robertdeangelo View Post

      In the interest of agreeing and raising my post count... I TOO AGREE :->
      This is what John is talking about.

      It's post #52 in this very thread, and this guy's NOT kidding! He only has 11 posts, and admits to posting a "me too" simply to raise his post count...

      Yet the post is still here.

      I reported it- anyone else want to step up?

      LOL.

      Gman
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      • Profile picture of the author Johnny Slater
        It's been reported enough that it got removed.

        Originally Posted by Glenn Grundberg View Post

        This is what John is talking about.

        It's post #52 in this very thread, and this guy's NOT kidding! He only has 11 posts, and admits to posting a "me too" simply to raise his post count...

        Yet the post is still here.

        I reported it- anyone else want to step up?

        LOL.

        Gman
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  • Profile picture of the author Bakai
    I think it is obvious that changes were made for financial considerations. WSO's are a driving force for the owners of the forum and to have overbearing mods would only deflect that.
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    • Profile picture of the author John Taylor
      Originally Posted by Bakai View Post

      I think it is obvious that changes were made for financial considerations. WSO's are a driving force for the owners of the forum and to have overbearing mods would only deflect that.
      You clearly don't know the owner of the forum,
      else you would realise just how far off the mark
      your comment is.


      John
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    • Profile picture of the author Gary Killops
      Originally Posted by Bakai View Post

      I think it is obvious that changes were made for financial considerations. WSO's are a driving force for the owners of the forum and to have overbearing mods would only deflect that.

      You just don't know how wrong you are.

      Gary
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    • Profile picture of the author Charles E. White
      Originally Posted by Bakai View Post

      I think it is obvious that changes were made for financial considerations. WSO's are a driving force for the owners of the forum and to have overbearing mods would only deflect that.
      I was going to stay out of this discussion because most of what I would say has already been said but then I seen this post and had to comment.

      First, most members haven't been here long enough to see all the people Allen (the forum owner) has helped. He has given away more money than the WSO's will ever make if he charged for WSO's for the next 50 years.


      Second, he has made millions (not from the forum or WSO's) and really don't need the money and the WSO's probably make the costs to run this forum about even. But less say he makes a million dollars for the WSO's...so what? Where else can you get the exposure to this many people for the lousy low cost WSO fee?


      Third, he should charge everyone here a monthly fee and that would take care of most of the spammers and etc. At one time you couldn't even belong here unless you were invited and either paid a fee or purchased an item. So, he made it free and now people accuse him of running it for financial gain, if he wanted financial gain from this forum, it it would never have been free. So, how much did you (being people who read this post..not you personally as it's not to anyone personally) pay to have the opportunity to be here and learn all you can learn?

      Fourth, if he did charge a monthly fee, he could pay the mods to work their asses off here like they did before, as some suggests in this thread. Personally, he doesn't have enough money for me to be a mod and have to put up with all the crap they have to from members of this forum.
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  • Profile picture of the author Louis Raven
    Allen leaves it up to us but nothing gets done. He'll bring back set moderators and some will moan.

    I think the system is set up perfect as it is. The problem is with the system controllers (us).

    I have no suggestions except for keep reporting the the threads which are off topic, spam, and against the rules.

    Louis
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  • Profile picture of the author valerieSONORA
    If it returned, and there happened to be no mods on when spammers came, their spam could take the entire first page until a mod came on.

    Then there will be posts complaining about the spam and about how something needs to be done and round and round we go.

    Maybe if it goes back to mods, there should be several more mods, so when the spammers and scammers go on a posting spree, it can be dealt with more swiftly and more chances a mod will be online.

    Now when a spammer goes on a posting spree, ppl can just press report and have it nuked instantly.
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    • Profile picture of the author lgibbon
      Banned
      Originally Posted by valerieSONORA View Post

      If it returned, and there happened to be no mods on when spammers came, their spam could take the entire first page until a mod came on.

      Then there will be posts complaining about the spam and about how something needs to be done and round and round we go.

      Maybe if it goes back to mods, there should be several more mods, so when the spammers and scammers go on a posting spree, it can be dealt with more swiftly and more chances a mod will be online.

      Now when a spammer goes on a posting spree, ppl can just press report and have it nuked instantly.

      The system doesn't have to change that much.
      Members could still report just as they do now.
      We just need more mods that will get the posts that are slipping through the net.
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      • Profile picture of the author Keith Boisvert
        Originally Posted by lgibbon View Post

        The system doesn't have to change that much.
        Members could still report just as they do now.
        We just need more mods that will get the posts that are slipping through the net.
        Back to the topic at hand, I feel that this is a great idea. A mix of the old and new might work good.

        Understandably this is not my forum, and I am not complaining, as I will continue to visit here regardless of our moderation mode(s). Of course I enjoy and owe much to the WF and want others to experience the same, so anything that I can do or say that makes this place better I am all for.

        This thread could be about trying to (as a collective whole) find ways to better the forum or address its current shortcomings. Not that Allen is obligated in any way to listen, but heck, who knows, maybe if discussed intelligently we might come up with something. Who knows?

        ~keith
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      • Profile picture of the author kumar
        Originally Posted by lgibbon View Post

        The system doesn't have to change that much.
        Members could still report just as they do now.
        We just need more mods that will get the posts that are slipping through the net.
        And probably, the mods could be from different time zones, so that the forum could be moderated at almost all times.

        By the way, is it necessary for our mods to have good experience in IM? Personally, I don't think so.
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      • Profile picture of the author Johnny Slater
        Although Les and I have not always met eye to eye in the past his post here is spot on.

        As I see it the only way to meet in the middle of the mod/no mod issue is to leave self moderation like it is and give a select few people the ability to delete or move posts from the main forum.

        We already have a few who handle this task in other portions of the fourm and perhaps its time to bring back a few people with that ability to the main forum as well.

        Originally Posted by lgibbon View Post

        The system doesn't have to change that much.
        Members could still report just as they do now.
        We just need more mods that will get the posts that are slipping through the net.
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  • Profile picture of the author MikeRogers
    Personally, I'd like to thank John for having the stones to make the opening post in what I believe will be an ongoing discussion for quite a while.

    I think that there can be little doubt that the WF is evolving into something quite different from what it was even a year ago. In some ways it has become a much colder place that seems to be losing its sense of humor.

    Hell, we all know that the main forum is for posting threads about "making money". But, since when did making money mean that you aren't allowed to have fun doing it (or for that matter, discussing it?)

    When you limit a member's post to "Just the facts, maam", as Sgt. Joe Friday might say, you deny yourself a glimpse into that Warrior's personality and all the threads become as dry as dust; not something many people want to keep coming back to. The forum begins to lose its stickiness as more Warriors just fade away.

    Now, I know Allen wants us all to be Moderators and help to police the forum but, the sad truth is...

    I'm no moderator and I know it.

    I wholeheartedly agree with John's advocacy to bring back the real Mods so that the rest of us can get back to having some fun and making posts without sweating over trying to be perfect in our delivery.

    MikeRogers
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    • Profile picture of the author John Taylor
      Originally Posted by Elmer Hurlstone View Post


      I agree with John, I, too, would like to see a return of the mods.


      Originally Posted by MikeRogers View Post


      I wholeheartedly agree with John's advocacy to bring back the real Mods so that the rest of us can get back to having some fun and making posts without sweating over trying to be perfect in our delivery.
      Guys, just for the record, at no point did I suggest
      bringing back the Mods.

      I suggested that there was a need for a greater
      degree of leadership and control.

      I'm not sure how that could be accomplished, but
      my hope was that this discussion might help to
      generate some potential solutions.

      John
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      • Profile picture of the author rosetrees
        Originally Posted by John Taylor View Post

        I'm not sure how that could be accomplished, but my hope was that this discussion might help to
        generate some potential solutions.
        I've just read this thread. Might some kind of refundable membership fee help? Refundable if the member has contributed sensibly for, say, 6 months. Non refundable, with membership cancelled, if the member tries to spam/abuse/whatever.

        That way - membership would be free in the long term (as it currently is) but the number of members passing through to take the p**s would be reduced.

        Just a thought anyway.

        Carol
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      • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
        Originally Posted by John Taylor View Post

        Guys, just for the record, at no point did I suggest
        bringing back the Mods.

        I suggested that there was a need for a greater
        degree of leadership and control.

        I'm not sure how that could be accomplished, but
        my hope was that this discussion might help to
        generate some potential solutions.

        John
        John, I may have a solution.

        I've been doing a lot of thinking about this because it is a problem.

        But let's look at this logically.

        We have 3 possibilities for control of this forum.

        1. Official
        2. Unofficial
        3. Combined


        Official is the appointing of moderators by Allen to police the forum.

        Unofficial is the self moderating that we now have by members.

        Combined is where we do both. Appoint moderators but still give members
        the ability to report threads and have them put into moderation for
        deletion.

        The problem with 2 and 3 is that under the present conditions of this
        forum, there is no real incentive for members to take on the job of
        reporting threads in violation.

        I know you could say that the incentive is to have a better forum, but
        here is the reality of human nature as you're going to have the following
        character traits. I'll simplify these.

        1. The Die Hard - This is the person who probably should be a mod. He
        will report anything that moves that he feels doesn't belong.

        2. The Casual Crime Fighter - He'll report the blatantly obvious spam
        posts, but he's not going to go reading through every thread to see if
        a post "belongs" or doesn't belong, such as if it belongs in OT or another
        part of the forum or if it's an "I" type of post that people seem to have
        problems with, or whatever. There is just too much work involved to
        read through these and determine what is appropriate and what is not,
        especially since a lot of this is subjective. As I said previously, I honestly
        don't know what I can post here anymore.

        3. The Apathetic - These are the people who just don't care enough. They
        don't read the posts that don't interest them or think are self promotional
        or whatever and therefore, they're not going to report what they don't
        read. You can't really blame these people because let's be honest, where
        is their incentive to take on this job? And make no mistake about it, this
        is a job.

        So what's the answer?

        The answer is to give the 2's and 3's incentive to police this place. And no,
        like I said, having a clean forum isn't enough of an incentive. If it was,
        they'd be doing it now, so obviously it's not.

        Well, one suggestion for an incentive would be for every 100 posts that
        you report that ultimately get deleted, you get 1 moderator point. When
        you reach 20 moderator points, you can cash them in for maybe a free
        WSO post or maybe a solo ad at the forum like Allen occasionally runs
        for certain members.

        This is just one suggestion. Maybe others can come up with other
        incentives.

        Now I Know that there is going to be some who will try to abuse the
        "rewards" system. They'll report posts that are perfectly fine...BUT...with
        keeping the same system, where one report can't delete a post, these
        people trying to game the system won't get anything from it because
        those who play fairly, won't report these perfectly acceptable posts.

        Anyway, there is my contribution for a solution.

        I think it has merits, but I'm open to other suggestions.
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        • Profile picture of the author lgibbon
          Banned
          Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post


          I think it has merits, but I'm open to other suggestions.
          Stand aside John, your thread has been taken over.
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        • Profile picture of the author bobt57
          Hello,

          I just wanted to comment, I think the discussion here is a very good one, I joined back in 2006 and admit that I have not visited as much as I should and have not done a lot of posting.

          One thing I have noticed more lately is that folks can sometimes get very nasty, I won't name names but I have seen a few threads get deleted because what started out as a respectable subject turned into a very mean bashing either of the thread starter or someone who commented in a thread.

          For one warrior in particular, its seems his/her sole purpose on this forum is to defame another warrior as evidenced by the warriors name.

          Pointing out in a respectable way that you do not agree or appreciate something someone did or said is one thing, but some of the posts I read seemed to go well beyond that. And some of the infractions that were at the source of the bashing did not even occur on this forum.

          My mistake was not reporting it when I read it, that will change.

          I sincerely believe that the majority of the people on this forum are decent people that are here to learn and help others, collectively there has to be millions of dollars in experience and education within the posts of this forum and thats the main reason I am here, to learn and grow.

          Thank you to those Warriors and please keep doing what your doing.

          Thanks for reading,
          Bob T
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      • Profile picture of the author MikeRogers
        Originally Posted by John Taylor View Post

        Guys, just for the record, at no point did I suggest
        bringing back the Mods.

        I suggested that there was a need for a greater
        degree of leadership and control.
        John
        Ah, Yes... I see that now.

        However, unlike Elmer, I do not wish to extend an apology.

        On the contrary, I fully intend to exercise my "Right to illiteracy" and cling to my inability to fully comprehend a post. To do otherwise would considerably lower my self esteem.

        MikeRogers
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    • Profile picture of the author Karen Blundell
      Originally Posted by MikeRogers View Post


      When you limit a member's post to "Just the facts, maam", as Sgt. Joe Friday might say, you deny yourself a glimpse into that Warrior's personality and all the threads become as dry as dust; not something many people want to keep coming back to. The forum begins to lose its stickiness as more Warriors just fade away.


      MikeRogers
      I couldn't agree more, Mike. I've been a member, admin, and moderator of several forums at some point and it is always the same thing. You can't please everyone so in the end you do the best you can.

      I think this forum is excellent. I think compared to other forums, this one runs very well. Is it perfect? No. Are there some things that need to be improved? Probably.

      But all in all, I'm impressed with this place. You know why? Because there are some really great people in here. It's the people who make a great community, and most of the people in this community are brilliant. And that is why I come here.

      If I see a post I don't like or that doesn't interest me, I simply ignore it. Life is too friggin short to worry about trivial matters, don't you think, Warriors?
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  • I appreciate all the sentiments in the previous replies. Community moderation is an incredibly hard thing to get right.

    Good examples to look at are Digg and Slashdot. Both give immense power over to the community to promote and demote content, and it works (most of the time).

    Unfortunately there will always be people who try to game the system - so some moderation is always needed. This is a staff role, as it sits outside of the "community moderation" role. It's hard to get community members to perform this moderation role unless their personal incentives are very closely aligned to the mission of the site owners.
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  • Profile picture of the author Bakai
    It seems to me that those preferring a "well moderated forum" have anti freedom of speech philosophies. While outright spam should be stopped, to say that some dialog is not suited for a particular topic is going too far in my opinion. It portrays a sheep like mentality of conformity.
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    • Profile picture of the author Elmer Hurlstone
      Originally Posted by Bakai View Post

      It seems to me that those preferring a "well moderated forum" have anti freedom of speech philosophies. While outright spam should be stopped, to say that some dialog is not suited for a particular topic is going too far in my opinion. It portrays a sheep like mentality of conformity.
      "Freedom of Speech" is not a "right" in the private sector.

      The Warrior Forum is not a public entity, but a privately held membership site. The only rights one has here are those specifically granted by the owner and for whatever period of time he wishes to grant them.

      John,

      Please accept my apology for being so unsanitary as to put words in your mouth.

      I hereby revise my statement to read, "I agree with John Taylor that there is, "...need for a greater degree of leadership and control."

      I personally think a return to moderation is worth considering to accomplish this end.

      Elmer Hurlstone
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  • Profile picture of the author Chuck Evans
    John for what it's worth I agree with you but I personally think we should re-install the MODS!

    Yes...it IS a thankless job, being abused by forum members, making a decision that may not be popular, but at the end of the day even though this forum has picked up members it certainly isn't the same as when I came on board in 2004!

    If there is a "vote" I'm in on bringing back the MODS!

    chuck
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  • Profile picture of the author Clark
    I agree with you John.

    The solution to the problem is not in a shift in moderation but to clarify the rules which govern this diamond mine.

    Sadly, the current rules do not speak to the type of content posted in the Main but rather, specific to signature file use, avatar use and blog use.

    Another sad fact is that there are only 4000+ views for the forum rules to date.

    http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...ead-first.html

    I like your definition of noise in the Main and will vote for adding it to the current community rules of this forum (if the option was present to vote).

    Cheers!
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    • Profile picture of the author Frank Donovan
      John

      It's hard to disagree with the points you make in your OP, but I wonder if we've given self-moderation enough of a chance?

      The current system relies not just on the action of members, but also their understanding of what constitutes an inappropriate post/thread. I can imagine some newer members being a little confused over some of the transgressions you point out, particularly when they see so many similar posts being made.

      This puts a greater onus on the more experienced members. It would certainly be useful if the reporting was weighted to reflect the reporter's experience/standing (of course, this may well already be the case) so that fewer reports were needed from certain members to bring about an action. It can occasionally be frustrating when a reported post remains on view, but hey, that's democracy.

      I also note that, at the time of this post, there were 60 members, including many experienced Warriors, expressing thanks for the OP. I'm pretty sure that if only a handful of these members were to regularly report offending posts, the transgressors wouldn't stand a chance.

      [How many of us have reported the 8 or 9 threads currently on the main page that are committing at least one of the transgressions mentioned in the OP?]

      All in all, I find myself agreeing with Les's idea about a compromise solution - self-moderation but with a stronger emphasis on the reporting by certain more experienced members.

      Happy New Year everyone.


      Frank
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      • Profile picture of the author Kevin Flask
        If I may offer an observation from someone less knowledgeable of these matters...

        I would very much like to contribute to the integrity of this forum. I hope I have been with the reporting of some spammers as of late.

        The rules of this forum are very clearly stated, and there are not that many to remember to follow.

        However, it has been noticeable that spammers and scammers are becoming...how should I say it...more resourceful. I'm still learning and am not that technologically savvy yet to determine if someone is less than scrupulous.

        In a previous post I read that we, the forum members, are encouraged to do our due diligence in researching and identifying credibility and falsities.

        My question is....how can I learn to identify and research the validity of someone's claims, websites, and affiliations that go against the integrity of this forum and its members and report them accordingly?

        Aside from the new members racking up post counts by starting threads one after the other with only one or two lines, and the obvious affiliate links in their sig file.

        It would be beneficial to me and maybe others if we new what to look for and become more active in reporting the rule breakers.

        Respectfully,

        Kevin Flask
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  • Profile picture of the author RobinSkeen
    Just wanted to pipe in and say a little something about the report button. Members with higher post counts have greater leverage when reporting than those with lower post counts. Knowing that, some members may not feel it is worth reporting as their report will not be given much weight.
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  • Profile picture of the author Jim Stewart
    And here was me thinking that it was just me who was becoming disappointed and disillusioned with how the WF has become in the past year or so.

    A timely post though John, and kudos for posting it.

    After over 10 years as a member here, I believe it is time to call it a day, for me anyway.

    This has become a kiddies forum.

    It used to be a place where folks could come and really learn about what it takes to be successful in IM.

    There were times when I didn't agree with the actions of Allen and some of the Mods, but I could live with them because of the calibre of information and the people giving it.

    Does anyone else remember when it felt "Special" to be a member here?

    That was something that no other forum could offer...It made it unique and it was a major factor in its success. It is a pity that it has lost that 'uniqueness'

    Not a place I want to call home anymore....It has become "Just another forum"

    Sad, but true...
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  • Profile picture of the author candoit2
    Self moderation is flawed because it requires more than one member to catch onto what is going on.

    Even if it is caught, the person breaking the rules ends up sticking around long enough to get enough traffic to not discourage them before enough people report them for action to be taken.
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    • Profile picture of the author mjbmedia
      It seems the main sticking point is some threads that are started for 'wrong reasons' ?

      The War Room works fine right?

      This may go down like a lead balloon but im gonna suggest it anyway.
      How about charging a nominal fee for every thread started?
      When people join, or at a set date for existing people, they have to deposit say $20 into their WF account. The OP pays $1 say from their account for each new thread made and each responder perhaps 'donates' a few cents as im really fed up of reading post after post of 'yes i agree' or 'great thread' with no content, again if you're giving good content in the post then a few cents is small change for the respectability you could gain from your considered responses.
      If you want to post tips etc , sure you can but you pay for the exposure, if youre just blatantly spamming or self promotion with no real content then you pay for it and lose the thread and dont get a refund, if youre asking a question then surely its worth $1 to get the great answers normally recieved.

      A lot of people are on here cos its free, and hats off to Allen and Co for that, but times are changing, when things are free, often theyre not respected.

      Im away for 3 weeks now PC less on cruise,so i doubt if id be responding to anything said but its just another angle to consider.

      Have a great New year
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      Mike

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      • Profile picture of the author Kim Standerline
        100% different

        You also got a lot of the very well known marketers posting as well such as John Reese etc.

        They hardly visit now, I wonder why

        Kim

        Originally Posted by Richard Odell View Post


        To the old hands in the forum, was it better back then, when you paid for the privilege?

        -Rich
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        • Profile picture of the author Eric Lorence
          Originally Posted by Kim Standerline View Post

          100% different

          You also got a lot of the very well known marketers posting as well such as John Reese etc.

          They hardly visit now, I wonder why

          Kim
          Because they are busy making money probably...

          Just the fact that so many members care enough to even participate in this thread shows that the system... with all it's flaws, is working just fine.

          Though people with delicate sensibilities may disagree...

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        • Profile picture of the author TiffanyLambert
          Originally Posted by Kim Standerline View Post

          100% different

          You also got a lot of the very well known marketers posting as well such as John Reese etc.

          They hardly visit now, I wonder why

          Kim
          Kim, don't think they're not here just because they're not posting I know for a fact tons of "big names" lurk, use your questions to create their products, and PM back and forth.

          In some instances, I know they are "scarce" because it looks good for them! Look at what people already posted - "They're busy making money," "They're too successful to be here..." but they ARE here...

          They email me stuff like, "Look at these posts in the WF and create an eBook about this topic."

          They email me and say, "PM me on WF because my email gets clogged."

          They're here...they're watching, and they're using the WF.
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          • Profile picture of the author Kim Standerline
            Fair comment Tiff


            Originally Posted by TiffanyDow View Post

            Kim, don't think they're not here just because they're not posting I know for a fact tons of "big names" lurk, use your questions to create their products, and PM back and forth.

            In some instances, I know they are "scarce" because it looks good for them! Look at what people already posted - "They're busy making money," "They're too successful to be here..." but they ARE here...

            They email me stuff like, "Look at these posts in the WF and create an eBook about this topic."

            They email me and say, "PM me on WF because my email gets clogged."

            They're here...they're watching, and they're using the WF.
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      • Profile picture of the author Norma Holt
        Originally Posted by mjbmedia View Post

        It seems the main sticking point is some threads that are started for 'wrong reasons' ?

        The War Room works fine right?

        This may go down like a lead balloon but im gonna suggest it anyway.
        How about charging a nominal fee for every thread started?
        When people join, or at a set date for existing people, they have to deposit say $20 into their WF account. The OP pays $1 say from their account for each new thread made and each responder perhaps 'donates' a few cents as im really fed up of reading post after post of 'yes i agree' or 'great thread' with no content, again if you're giving good content in the post then a few cents is small change for the respectability you could gain from your considered responses.
        If you want to post tips etc , sure you can but you pay for the exposure, if youre just blatantly spamming or self promotion with no real content then you pay for it and lose the thread and dont get a refund, if youre asking a question then surely its worth $1 to get the great answers normally recieved.

        A lot of people are on here cos its free, and hats off to Allen and Co for that, but times are changing, when things are free, often theyre not respected.

        Im away for 3 weeks now PC less on cruise,so i doubt if id be responding to anything said but its just another angle to consider.

        Have a great New year
        Crazy idea. I for one would leave.

        Norma
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  • Profile picture of the author Scott Ames
    It should be simple. The posted rules are the guide, but many will flag a thread because they simply don't agree, or they don't like that person.

    I never worry about repeated questions. It bugs some people and they like to yell " Use the search feature".. Well, they could, but it may not be the most current answer to the question. Someone may have a completely different answer. This is a forum, a discussion, not a knowlege base. Subjects will
    come up over and over as new people come and go.
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  • Profile picture of the author kennethtang
    An analogy, if I may...

    We live in a great big city of multitudes of people. The citizens are well-trained in martial arts and self-defence (and through experience, some have developed some skill in law-enforcement measures and police work) and are tasked with keeping the city safe.

    However, they are not professional police. They are citizen police. They have to make a living. Previously, when the city was just an average sized village, and infractions were of an "innocent" nature unintentionally committed by mostly honest and decent folks (and the demands of making a living, business, family, and a thousand and one other things weren't that intense) a citizen police force was sufficient to cope.

    Then the village became a big city. And those demands became even more intense. Although the citizens have the martial skills, they no longer have the time to actually do the police work. They want to, they have every good intention of making the neighborhoods safe for everyone, but the demands of the times are much more urgent, and must take precedence over "citizen police work".

    Because of the times, the city needs a professional police force.

    Just my opinion, nothing more (BTW, sorry for the "incomplete" analogy. I'm writing in a rush)

    Kenneth
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    • Profile picture of the author Elmer Hurlstone
      Originally Posted by Bakai...

      Quote:
      Originally Posted by Elmer Hurlstone
      "Freedom of Speech" is not a "right" in the private sector.

      You say that like freedom of speech is something to be avoided at all costs.
      I'm continually amazed at conclusions drawn without one iota of supporting evidence.

      Elmer Hurlstone
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      • Profile picture of the author MikeAmbrosio
        Originally Posted by Elmer Hurlstone View Post

        I'm continually amazed at conclusions drawn without one iota of supporting evidence.

        Elmer Hurlstone
        That's what you typically get with troll-like posters :rolleyes:
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  • Profile picture of the author valerieSONORA
    Pay per post? No way. Then only like 2 people will be posting.
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    • Profile picture of the author Keith Boisvert
      Originally Posted by valerieSONORA View Post

      Pay per post? No way. Then only like 2 people will be posting.

      And Steve W would be broke!!!

      I don't think we need to go that far. A little more moderation leadership and we would be leaps and bounds ahead of where we are now.

      Keith
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    • Profile picture of the author lgibbon
      Banned
      Originally Posted by valerieSONORA View Post

      Pay per post? No way. Then only like 2 people will be posting.
      But at least they might be interesting.
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  • Profile picture of the author Allen Graves
    Yup - this place is NOTHING like it was a year ago. Defintely on a down.

    Respectfully,
    Allen Graves
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  • Profile picture of the author cyndiek
    I am not commenting to agree or disagree. I will state however that I have learned a tremendous amount by reading the various posts on this forum. Whatever does happen related to controlling the posts, I hope that posts are still made and allowed for those of us that continue to learn day in and day out from this forum. Thank you for allowing me to comment.
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    • Profile picture of the author Keith Boisvert
      First, most members haven't been here long enough to see all the people Allen (the forum owner) has helped. He has given away more money than the WSO's will ever make if he charged for WSO's for the next 50 years.


      Second, he has made millions (not from the forum or WSO's) and really don't need the money and the WSO's probably make the costs to run this forum about even. But less say he makes a million dollars for the WSO's...so what? Where else can you get the exposure to this many people for the lousy low cost WSO fee?
      Exactly!! I have only been here a wee more than 2 years and seen it first hand. Hell, a few months ago I won a damn laptop by answering a question. Actually, it was a toss up between me and another member(Karl Warren) and Allen actually gave us BOTH a laptop. So his motives and generosity should never be in question! Hence the reason some warriors want to see the integrity and the experiences within the WF improve, so others will see the and receive the same benefits we have. This hands down is the best forum online for IM and I for one am forever grateful and indebted to this place.

      ~Keith
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  • Profile picture of the author Rachel Goodchild
    I'm no longer a daily peron on here
    and haven't been for a while.
    I pop on about once a week and browse and to be honest, despite what you say, the actual content of this place really hasn't altered in the two years I've been on here- in relation to numbers of people doing all those transgressions you mentioned
    Perhaps it's more that we always beocme aware of fashionable transgressions, from time to time
    those things you've mentioned have ALWAYS go on.

    I am not sure about the moderator changes, but I do know for the most part we are all adults, and we can moderate to make this the place we want it to be
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  • Profile picture of the author Maurice Rigaud
    There were many valid points and possible solutions brought forth. But what we all must remember is that the old way of moderating needed a change. So Allen came up with self-moderating which we now have the power to use. We as committed members just need to use that power judiciously and fairly no matter how many posts you have as Michael Oksa alluded to.

    Just a thought which might make sense or not...You know when you log in the first thing you see is a Warrior's Ad---why not make the first thing you have to see is the "Warrior Forum Rules - Please Read First!" and "Members are Moderators" threads only, then have members click accept function to abide, and then give access to the rest of the forum. I know it can be a pain but its a price to pay for all those who want to see the Warrior Forum continue to progress upwardly.

    Another idea would be to have some type of function on the forum where if a member tries to posts a new thread the system does a check to see if that question or comment has been made already. If it has never then allow the new thread to post if it has then the member will be forced to go through the thread results to find their answer. Just throwing out some solutions to be helpful.
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  • Profile picture of the author fm1234
    It's been going down since at least last summer, one big reason I'm not such a fixture here as I used to be. Ironically, when I posted about this previously I was piled on by members and censored by mods. (I think it's still in the "off topic" section of the old forum, if you care to go looking for it.)


    Frank
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  • Profile picture of the author webdesigner4
    Banned
    [DELETED]
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    • Profile picture of the author Robert Oliver
      I have been a member here for 3 years. I owe this forum for me
      learning what I needed to know to start a business on the internet.
      Most everything I learned was from here. Some good , some bad.
      I have been cheated, spammed, and lost money on some of this
      information, but it did not stop me from pursuing my goal of building
      a internet based business. Thanks you Allen and the Warrior Forum
      for this wonderful opportunity.

      I have done my part and continue to do my part to report cheaters
      and thieves as I see them. I usually send my observations to a couple
      of members here as they seem to follow-thru and get things done.

      I do agree that this forum has become a haven for spammers, and
      thieves. As far as newbies go, I was one of them myself at one time.
      I ask some very stupid questions myself. I think we all have at one time
      or another. You do grow up in a short period of time once you have figured
      out what goes on here. Its very easy to recognize the newbies who only
      come here for quick financial gain. They all set a pattern.

      We used to have fun with spammers, till the MODS deleted the thread. Sometimes
      this just made my day and allowed me to refocus on what I had to do that day.
      A little fun never hurt anyone.

      If you want to quit being a victim of wso thieves, you just need to do some
      homework before you by. A lot of the information now being sold in the wso
      forum is rehashed, free information that can be found all over. Just use Google
      and do some research. This will save your money and lots of aggravation. Watch
      where there are a lot of newbie testimonials. Do not be the first to buy. Watch the
      feedback for several days. This will save your money also.

      A lot of what people are complaining about can be taken care of very easily. Just do
      your part here as a member of this wonderful free source of information and
      opportunity. If everyone who cares about this place just does a little bit, we can
      all benefit and make a difference. Sure there will be some who take advantage
      , but that is just society when you get all types of people together. Take responsible
      for your own actions here and just do a little bit extra. I do not believe that the responsibility should be shouldered by a few. In the end Allen has the final say so.

      Happy New Year To All

      Here's to a great 2009

      Robert
      Signature

      It's Not Over Till I Win!
      Do you see the glass half empty or half
      full? The difference can mean success or
      failure.
      The simple things seem to be the most
      effective and most overlooked.

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  • Profile picture of the author Neil Morgan
    Like others, I too have felt the winds of change and kudos to John for bringing it up.

    I've been posting here myself less recently because my time is better spent elsewhere.

    For what it's worth, I feel the problem is simply that many people are here to promote themselves, not to help others.

    Who can blame them - it's free advertising to their target market.

    The solution?

    Ban sigs or at least charge for their use.

    Cheers,

    Neil
    Signature

    Easy email marketing automation without moving your lists.

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    • Profile picture of the author webpromotions
      Originally Posted by Neil Morgan View Post

      Like others, I too have felt the winds of change and kudos to John for bringing it up.

      I've been posting here myself less recently because my time is better spent elsewhere.

      For what it's worth, I feel the problem is simply that many people are here to promote themselves, not to help others.

      Who can blame them - it's free advertising to their target market.

      The solution?

      Ban sigs or at least charge for their use.

      Cheers,

      Neil
      This is the most sensible post in this entire thread.

      Talk about wanting to have the cake and eat it too.

      This forum was created for marketers - it caters to them. Allow 14 million sig lines for every user, display post counts, REWARD post counts (more weight, allows for posting of links directly in posts), the entire WSO thing, encourage the circle-jerk 'thanks' system, and strongly encouraging users to use their own name for personal branding.

      What else would one expect? Remove the usernames, post counts, and sig lines and see who actually makes a post on this forum, as well as any other forum?
      Not saying the way things are is a bad thing...but its this way for a reason.

      Personally, I'd love to be able to find a real discussion forum - one where users post just to make their viewpoint heard - not to display their sig or recent WSO. Don't think its going to happen - and 99% of anyone who has replied to this thread is proof of that.

      This thread is pretty much a spin on the old "I'm a marketer who hates being marketed to" thing - gets pretty old.
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  • Profile picture of the author R Hagel
    I just want to throw a coupla cents in regarding one specific idea that's being bandied about. Namely, paying to post.

    Personally, I think that would create a nightmare.

    Right now, there are people on this forum who feel they are entitled to post anything they want... and they throw an absolute fit when their posts get deleted. Imagine the size fit those folks would throw if one of their paid posts got deleted. *shudder*

    Anyway, I do like the member moderation. Right now, maybe we have stuff slipping by because of the "social loafing" / bystander / diffusion of responsibility effect. That's where a little leadership would come in handy.

    Personally, that's also why I sometimes will "call out" some of the stuff I see going on... that way, other members will take a look and see if they, too, think it's worth hitting the report button.

    Cheers,
    Becky
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    • Profile picture of the author Jonathan 2.0
      I don't see anything wrong with the forum.
      Signature
      "Each problem has hidden in it an opportunity so powerful that it literally dwarfs the problem. The greatest success stories were created by people who recognized a problem and turned it into an opportunity."―Joseph Sugarman
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  • Profile picture of the author MikeAmbrosio
    Remember "way back" in '06?

    I keep forgetting how much this forum has grown over the years. Back in '99 or '00 when I joined:

    - You had to pay to get access
    - EVERY post was moderated and approved before you saw it. In fact, back then it was largely Paul Myers doing the moderating (if memory serves).

    What we have here is not perfect. And due to the diversity of the people and personalities we have, there will NEVER be a perfect solution.

    I like the way it is now. While I agree there's a bit more "noise", I believe most of that is because of how many members we have now as compared to even 2 years ago.

    Maybe you have to dig a little more to get to the nuggets, but they're around.

    Maybe the underlying reason for some of the complaints isn't really because the quality has gone down - maybe it's because we don't want to spend the time digging for the gold.

    As for the self moderation - I think it's not perfect. I think we could all stand to be a little more proactive in flagging posts, etc.

    That includes me

    For now, I'm gonna go dig for some more gold.

    Happy New Year!
    Signature

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  • Profile picture of the author George Wright
    Hi,

    If you look on the first page of the main forum you will find posts that should not be there.

    Of course that is my opinion. I flagged them. They are still there so obviously my opinion is not shared by many.

    This is still a great forum and I think Allen made a brilliant move with the War Room. The main page is not "it" anymore.

    George Wright
    Signature
    "The first chapter sells the book; the last chapter sells the next book." Mickey Spillane
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    • Profile picture of the author MikeAmbrosio
      Originally Posted by George Wright View Post

      Hi,

      If you look on the first page of the main forum you will find posts that should not be there.

      Of course that is my opinion. I flagged them. They are still there so obviously my opinion is not shared by many.

      This is still a great forum and I think Allen made a brilliant move with the War Room. The main page is not "it" anymore.

      George Wright
      Thanks for the reminder George. I keep forgetting I am a member.

      I highly recommend it to anyone.
      Signature

      Are you protecting your on line business? If you have a website, blog, ecommerce store you NEED to back it up regularly. Your webhost will only protect you so much. Check out Quirkel. Protect yourself.

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  • Profile picture of the author Terry Crim
    I don't post much anymore, too busy and the endless soap opera gets old after a while. Like this is the only world and if many of you can't get your word in here the world ends and all sorts of bad will happen to you. Got to say, it actually does not end and when you are gone noone gives a rats ass about it. LOL

    This website is not a democracy and for those throwing suggestions around in the tone that you have anything to do with how this place runs, your throwing around imagined weight with no substance to it.

    If Allen is reading this thread and is putting considerations to the suggestions maybe consider putting a price back on? Those of us that paid the life time fee way back when, put a hell of a lot more value on this forum and YOU then those that just come in and demand this or that and act like this is their own personal property.

    I personally do not care which way or what if anything is done because I do have a life and family issues as well as business that balances me out. If I choose to post I post, If I choose to lurk I lurk... The opinions of certain people matter more to me than others and I read the forum as I always have. What interests me I read and/or follow up on and those that don't hold my interest I stop reading or don't read in the first place.

    Over the years Allen has tried everything you can think of and most of the suggestions I have read follow under the been there done that. Some worked better than others but no matter which one was implemented there was always people that didn't like it, no matter which way it went.

    Either you want rules and enforcement or you don't. After careful consideration and experimentation over the years that Allen has invested here, I have paid close attention to the results. Either way it went people didn't like but when there was moderators patroling the beaches here there was smooth steady streams of people that cared posting good content.

    Times change as do the people, I was a moderator here for a period of time and for those that did not have the privledge of holding the reins I can tell you. What you see in the public posts is hundreds of times worse in private. The same lovely characters we all see and respect turn vicious and nasty behind what they think is closed doors. Threats, lawsuits and hole hell of bitchy winey 2 year olds come out because they did not get their way.

    I can highly recommend to many of you if the opportunity does come to become a moderator please volunteer because that way you will see that what many of the suggestions given and ways you think the Warrior Forum operates... You will discover how it does run intimately and you will have the privledge of seeig the results of the implementation of those carefully chosen suggestions.

    There is NOT a seminar, classroom or mentoring program that come close to what you will learn behind the scenes here at the Warrior Forum. It is not all candy canes and rainbows but the education you will get will allow you to charge 5 to 10 times what your current fee is for coaching. That is if you can handle it. Most quit the first day, fewer still last the week out.

    Those that can last longer than 2 months are Warriors Elite in the true sense of the meaning at the Warrior Forum.

    I have been a member since the unisol days and I will still be a member until allen closes the doors and deletes the site off the internet.

    I survived being a moderator, WF addiction and every single stage this place has gone through since I became a member.

    When you leave, people still keep posting. There maybe a few that post where did he/she go but for the most part they are more into themselves than you ever thought they were into you. Threats of not posting anymore or taking hiatus mean NOTHING except to you and are empty threats. If you want to leave then leave.

    Posting about what should be done or demanding this or that fall on deaf ears, mainly the Demanding ones.

    If you allow this suggestion to be accepted one thing that you may want to do is out post the negative with good constructive and when people give criticism about what you post, tone of your post or any number of criticisms. Take them into consideration and either alter the way you post or don't, your choice. Defending and going on long rants about why you are the way you are or exposay into apologising about hurting over sensitive feelings to completely acceptable posts. To me is silly and waste of time.

    I just skip over those, because apparently I have the ability to do that.

    Like it or hate it, people will accept you or they wont, the will like you or love you or not... You have no control over that, for the most part anyway.

    Everyone comes from different place and reads through their own filters. What I have learned is most people do not have the same filters so will take things in ways you didn't mean. The ability to compose yourself in ways that the majority comprehend in the same or closest possible way will make you very well off.

    Post here, build your skills and then go and put them to use OFF forum.

    I don't have anything else to say about other things I have read in this thread.

    Thanks,

    - Terry
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  • Profile picture of the author BizBooks
    I frequent another (non IM) forum (Fatwallet if you must know!) and there every thread gets rated..

    then each member can pick "see threads rated positive" "see all threads"...

    so you can easily pick the level of filtering you personally want. and change it anytime to see if you are missing any juuuicy threads

    anyone here understand what i mean?
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    • Profile picture of the author Terry Crim
      Originally Posted by BizBooks View Post

      I frequent another (non IM) forum (Fatwallet if you must know!) and there every thread gets rated..

      then each member can pick "see threads rated positive" "see all threads"...

      so you can easily pick the level of filtering you personally want. and change it anytime to see if you are missing any juuuicy threads

      anyone here understand what i mean?

      You can here too. On the top right of the thread there is a rating you can choose to rate the thread. In the search feature you can search by a whole lot of things including thanked posts and top posters etc etc..

      You can also choose to not see specific people's posts. Say you don't want to see Steve's posts just add him to your ignore list and you won't see his posts anymore. There will be a place marker so if you choose to see what he wrote you can or remove him from your ignore list all together.

      I use Steve as an example just cause. I know he loves the attention. LOL


      - Terry
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    • Profile picture of the author Eric Lorence
      Originally Posted by BizBooks View Post

      I frequent another (non IM) forum (Fatwallet if you must know!) and there every thread gets rated..

      then each member can pick "see threads rated positive" "see all threads"...

      so you can easily pick the level of filtering you personally want. and change it anytime to see if you are missing any juuuicy threads

      anyone here understand what i mean?
      There is a rate thread function here, just not many people use it, or properly.
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  • Profile picture of the author tommygadget
    I love this forum. I sincerely do. In a previous life, I used to ship computers all over the country and pull my hair out with delivery problems, customer sc***ups, etc. I was looking for a better way. One day I bought an ebook (don't remember who's) and there was a link to this forum. I clicked on it and said "woah, this IS the place to be". I believed it then and I believe it now. I have tried hard to contribute and add value to this forum. I use the "report post" button whenever I see a pointless rant, a way off-topic thread, blatant spam, etc. I believe that if more of us did the same, there would be no reason for this thread at all. Sure you can bring back the mods., but if just a few more people would take the time to hit that button when the right time comes, we will do fine.

    TomG.
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  • Profile picture of the author Joseph Ratliff
    John, you raise a very good point.

    This forum is quite a respectable tool in the IM community...and that needs to be preserved.
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  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
    Les,
    I think the idea is someone asks a question and someone replies with tips.

    Not, that someone that takes it upon himself to decide what tips everyone else should be reading day after day,
    This seems to be a matter of imposing a personal preference on a group. A lot of people like some of those "tips" posts, myself included. And it's a fairly safe bet that other people like the other ones.

    If we limited things to "Question, then answer," we'd have an entirely different place. I don't think you'd like it much.

    On the question of mods, I'm ambivalent. I don't see things as being all that different than they've ever been. Maybe more of what's always been here, but not much new in the way of trends.

    Could we do better? Sure. That's always possible. Nearly any suggestion that's made will have pluses, but it will have minuses, too. Even if only due to conflicting sets of preferences. Member moderation tends toward balancing those in a workable way. Formal moderators are better for getting rid of the edge stuff, but tend not to be as well-balanced.

    As an example, Les and I have very different philosophies about how a forum like this should be run. I was always very liberal in terms of what posts I allowed, and tended to whack people publicly for things I thought were outright wrong or damaging.

    Les was much more conservative than me, more likely to nuke edgy posts, and tended to do his correction privately, if there was any conversation at all.

    My way generated one set of complaints, and Les's generated a different set. Was one better or worse than the other? Depends on who you asked, and what their preference was. Objectively, they were just different views of the same goal.

    Every moderator had this challenge, to the degree that their philosophy was visible in action. With member mods, there's room for balance, and there's room for abuse. Same as before.

    The biggest challenge with the kind of rapid growth we see here lately is that the people joining for specific promotional reasons are more likely to be aggressively active than the folks joining for learning purposes. So, there's more of the abuse. The blatant stuff gets caught so well by the members now that it's barely noticeable. An even better point is that the load for that is spread among the whole group, rather than being on a small handful of people.

    Member moderation also allows for a less benevolent use of Nathan's (I believe) suggestion for a "cabal" who act in concert to "manage" threads. Imagine a group of people deciding they were going to do this based on some agenda other than the good of the group. Wouldn't be difficult at all.

    Always consider how your suggestions for good can be used for ill.

    All of which is a long way of pointing out why I think John has hit the nail on the head in his focus on leadership. Assuming, that is, that you believe there's a need for something different than we've got now. I'm not sure about that, myself, but it's clearly a matter of preference, on which folks disagree.

    The most obvious symbol of the way things could go is what John's calling "hieroglyphics" in WSO titles. Sure, it might work, especially if you use them to push the title area to two lines and get more "space" on the page. That's not the point.

    The point is in how people view that section.

    Whether that attitude needs adjusting is Allen's call. I don't personally like the mindset behind that stuff, but it's not my forum.

    If the members want to adjust an attitude on something, there's a simple approach that goes a long way toward the goal. Call it a two-step program:

    Don't do it.
    Don't reward it.


    Simple, eh?

    If you object to the odd symbols in WSO titles, don't buy offers from people who use them. There's no point in PM'ing them and telling them why, since they're going to assume you're just griping, and wouldn't have bought anyway.

    If the majority don't like it, and decide not to buy because of it, sales for those offers will drop. This will be noticed, at least by the smart folks.

    Note: Unless it breaks the rules or is objectively destructive or damaging to the group, reporting it is usually just wrong. We can create group expectations, but we don't get to make the rules.

    If you're going to object to something vocally, give logical reasons. "I don't like it" is fine for making personal decisions, but it's not a useful argument for convincing others. Learn to present your thoughts in a cogent fashion, and understand the difference between preference and fact.

    Do that and - guess what? You're a leader.

    If you think the place needs more of a certain thing, don't wait for someone else. Provide that thing yourself.

    That's being a leader.

    If you lead in a direction that no-one wants to follow, you're still doing what you think is right. That's better than most people do.

    If we're talking about more formal leadership, that means the same thing, but from a central point: Setting expectations and standards. I think Allen has made those pretty clear. It's the job of the more senior folks here to remind people of them.

    Sort of like John is doing with this thread.


    Mike,
    EVERY post was moderated and approved before you saw it. In fact, back then it was largely Paul Myers doing the moderating (if memory serves).
    Yep. At that point, Allen and I were the only people who handled that stuff. I was the only moderator here for three years or more.

    Like you, I don't see the big problem. Sure, things could use some fine-tuning. That's always been the case and it always will be. But I see more useful stuff posted now than ever before. More crap, too, but that's part of growth.

    If you want to grow a prize steer, you'd better be able to handle a little bull____.


    Terry,
    This website is not a democracy
    Amen.

    A lot of people respond to that with silliness about censorship and other irrelevant arguments. Leaving aside the fact that this is a privately owned site, there's the bigger issue: For every person here, there's a set of preferences about how things should be done. Some of those are mutually exclusive, and some are ill-formed and unworkable. Allowing anything and everything is simply not practical.

    So, there has to be some central authority. Since he owns the place, Allen is the logical person to assume that role.

    I moderated digital forums for over 20 years. I have never seen one work that didn't have some central authority. One hopes that person is a benign dictator, but either way, they have to have the power - and use it when needed.

    I have a very high tolerance for conversational chaos. Probably higher than most people. Still, if you want to focus on a topic, even a general one, you have to understand a simple fact of productivity:

    Purpose imposes order.

    Chaos is wonderful for creativity, but it sucks for taking effective action.

    Again, it's all about balance. You have to find your own.


    Paul
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    • Profile picture of the author Michael Mayo
      Hi Warriors,

      I'm kinda in a hurry so I hope this makes sense.

      I think the answer to self moderating the WF has a very simple solution
      but you have to know what the flaw in the self moderation system is.

      The flaw is the fact that threads which need to be reported/deleted are
      not seen by enough Warriors to make something happen.

      At present, Only the Warriors that see a problem report the thread or
      post.

      So, the solution is to make it known to many warriors that a thread has
      been reported.

      For example: Say a post gets reported and a Red Flag appears in the
      thread title as a result. Or, a scrolling marque in the Main Forum is
      populated with a link to the reported post/thread.

      Warriors would see this and visit the thread to see what the problem is.
      If it is a valid problem then the post/thread would be reported by many
      Warriors. If the problem was not valid then there would be no action
      except for the person that reported it.

      Just my .02
      Have a Great Day!
      Michael
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  • Profile picture of the author sylviad
    Originally Posted by John Taylor View Post

    ...The main forum is becoming a free for all with people posting...
    • Threads that belong in the specialist forums
    • The list could go on...
    I agree that the forum has become inundated with many threads that offer little, if any, help. Introductions, forum beefs and open charities are good examples. Having special sections for certain topics is a good idea... IF those sections get sufficient traffic to see a timely response to your query.

    I just checked the various other forums in comparison to this main one. All of them had 25 or less members whereas this one had 500+.

    Now, which would you expect to be the best place to get a quick answer? I have posted a query on one forum but it took over a day to get an answer. In all, only 3 people responded and none of them fixed my problem. Anything I ask here gets answered within a few hours, minimum.

    It would help significantly if there were some way to put more focus on those special sections and boost the traffic flow through them. Then, people might be more inclined to post there.

    Sylvia
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  • Profile picture of the author John Taylor
    Sylvia,

    The reason most people post in the main forum
    rather than specialist forums is because they
    can now get away with it.

    The more people who show leadership by posting
    in the correct forum, the busier those forums
    will become.

    John
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    • Profile picture of the author tommygadget
      Originally Posted by John Taylor View Post

      Sylvia,

      The reason most people post in the main forum
      rather than specialist forums is because they
      can now get away with it.

      The more people who show leadership by posting
      in the correct forum, the busier those forums
      will become.

      John
      True, but many times a very interesting post, certainly IM related got whisked off to the "Mind Warriors" section and died a slow death with lots of posts in the main forum asking where it went. Newbies would have benefited from those threads, but let's face it, the traffic is just not there. Imagine if you were monitoring 5 or more parts of this forum. It would be very time consuming to keep up and that's why I suspect people don't do it.

      TomG.
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      • Profile picture of the author John Taylor
        Originally Posted by tommygadget View Post

        True, but many times a very interesting post, certainly IM related got whisked off to the "Mind Warriors" section and died a slow death with lots of posts in the main forum asking where it went. Newbies would have benefited from those threads, but let's face it, the traffic is just not there. Imagine if you were monitoring 5 or more parts of this forum. It would be very time consuming to keep up and that's why I suspect people don't do it.

        TomG.

        New members can still benefit from a thread
        posted in a specialist forum, if they are
        interested enough in the topic to take the
        time to look.

        People can spend their time as they choose.

        I don't see that traffic is much of an issue,
        unless, of course, you are looking for sig file
        exposure.

        John
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        • Profile picture of the author tommygadget
          Originally Posted by John Taylor View Post

          I don't see that traffic is much of an issue,
          unless, of course, you are looking for sig file exposure.

          John
          Ahh... a little cynical perhaps? Traffic IS an issue when time is an issue. I've posted several requests for help in the main forum and got rapid and useful feedback right away. That would not have happened if my threads were tucked away in another section of the forum. The threads in question also would not have been seen (maybe) by the people who provided the solutions because most people just drop in, look at a few of the new posts in the main forum and zip off. Also, consider this; many threads cross the boundaries of more than one section of the forum, so classifying them would also be a nightmare both for the posters and for those looking for the information.

          TomG.
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    • Profile picture of the author sylviad
      Originally Posted by John Taylor View Post

      Sylvia,

      The reason most people post in the main forum
      rather than specialist forums is because they
      can now get away with it.

      The more people who show leadership by posting
      in the correct forum, the busier those forums
      will become.

      John
      Over the long term, perhaps, but when you need
      an answer, you need it right then. You can't wait until
      the other members decide to change their attitudes
      and head directly to the right forum. That could take
      months for everyone to catch up.

      Those forums need to become popular first so people
      WILL post there, but how do you do that? I have no
      idea.

      It's like when the forum first started with no members.
      Something has to happen to get the ball rolling.

      Sylvia

      PS: Regarding your comment re traffic... of course it
      matters. The more traffic, the more likely someone will
      come along with the answer you need. As I said, I waited
      over a day and still didn't get the right solution. Then,
      the thread just slipped down into oblivion.

      It's not always all about exposing your sig.
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  • Profile picture of the author Bev Clement
    Self moderation isn't working, even when a thread is removed, it often is put back. It takes time to read and report threads, and sometimes we don't have that time to do it.

    But self moderation should also include knowing what is acceptable and what isn't.

    If we know that a long post which isn't open to discussion should be in another area or on the blog, then we should post there ourselves.

    On one side we should report threads which shouldn't be in the MF, but we using the same knowledge shouldn't post threads that we would report, if they didn't have our name on them.

    Be responsible, post in the correct area, use the blog if you want to just put your thoughts, and don't report a thread because it doesn't belong, when you are doing exactly the same thing.
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    • Profile picture of the author Terry Crim
      Originally Posted by Bev Clement View Post

      But self moderation should also include knowing what is acceptable and what isn't.
      Yes but most do not read the rules, especially new people that find their way here.

      If we know that a long post which isn't open to discussion should be in another area or on the blog, then we should post there ourselves.
      Good idea but after the fact posts by others I think is what is beign discussed. It is good for those that know what is and isn't appropriate and care to do that before they post that is great. Most aren't and I think that is what is a problem for many.

      It is also confusing when there are many different forums and those that aren't sure just post in the MF because they don't know where or bother to post in the correct forum.

      I don't know. I for one don't have time to be a cop and police the forums but it is great for those that do.

      I enjoyed participating in this thread but I think I am at the end of any useful contributions. Have fun everyone and have a great New Year and beginning 2009!


      - Terry
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  • Profile picture of the author tommygadget
    Also, we don't have any way to move the threads (in the self-moderated forum, that is) to the right sub-forum. That is a problem.

    TomG.
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    • Profile picture of the author sylviad
      Originally Posted by tommygadget View Post

      Also, we don't have any way to move the threads (in the self-moderated forum, that is) to the right sub-forum. That is a problem.

      TomG.
      Ooo. I can imagine what a mess we would have if just anyone could start moving threads around. That capability SHOULD only be available to the boss or a select few.

      You can be sure some people would be moving things into wrong forums or moving threads that didn't need to be moved. Plus, you know goll-darned well some idiot would start messin' just to cause trouble - for the forum, for people they don't like, just because...

      Sylvia
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  • Profile picture of the author psresearch
    Originally Posted by NathanFalkner View Post

    Said another way: "Allen, you and the super moderators
    are doing a really shitty job approving WSO's." Isn't that
    what you're really saying? Because the last time I looked,
    WSO's are not moderated by members. They're submitted
    and approved by Allen and/or a so-called 'Super Mod' like
    Bryan Kumar and Michael Tracey. Are they doing THAT bad
    of a job approving WSO's?

    My guess is that if you and 4 or 5 of the former mods (who
    generally had high post counts and had been members here
    for years) were to collectively flag a thread or post, it would
    vanish. That's your control right there. I'm not sure there's
    really a need to change the system. Why don't you round up
    a bunch of the former mods via PM or e-Mail, and create your
    own little cartel whereby you will alert each other of what
    threads and/or posts must be deleted, and then just go about
    collectively hitting the 'report' button.

    Problem solved, right? What am I missing here? (I'm asking in
    a genuine way -- in fact, if you need one more person with
    a high post count to hit the 'report' button, add me to the
    e-mail distribution list with the daily list of threads that have
    been selected for removal).
    I'm kind of curious about that myself as I reported a WSO with pretty clear
    evidence that there was very questionable activity going on in the WSO and it's still going on right now.

    My next step was to contact someone who I thought might be able to escalate it, but I had no idea who that would be.

    It was fairly depressing really when I saw the WSO continue to run.

    Paul Schlegel
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Two posts I just read, after coming back from my inlaws for New Years,
      really struck a chord with me...Paul Myers and David Schwartz.

      David, I almost felt like I was reading what I've been feeling almost since
      the day I arrived here. I must be the most stubborn cuss in the world to
      keep doing this because let me tell you, it's not fun sometimes.

      Paul, you make so much sense with your posts that I wish I had your wisdom
      and ability to be rational about this.

      The problem is, I can't.

      I have knowledge to share, I share it.

      I've written books here, but I'm told that they have no place here.

      Yet, so many members thank me for those books. So many have learned
      so much.

      Yet, from others, I get torn to shreds.

      I have finally caved in and in another post said that I would not be
      starting any more threads here in the main discussion because I'm tired
      of the BS.

      I have people begging me to change my mind.

      So here I am torn between saving my sanity (because this place will
      surely drive me crazy if I keep doing what I've been doing) and helping
      those I came here to help 2 years ago.

      So now I'm further loaded down with the added guilt of feeling like I am
      letting those people down because of my selfishness to not want to be
      abused anymore for posting my "How I Made...." novels.

      So I can't win either way.

      All because of people here who have their own agenda and have decided
      that "how to" posts don't belong here.

      Last I looked at the Main Discussion rules I didn't see anything that said..

      You cannot talk about your success.
      You cannot post how to threads.
      You cannot answer questions in your area of expertise.

      If these are unwritten rules then let's write them. Let the thread in the
      main discussion area that has the rules of this forum actually post those
      rules. Otherwise, people are going to keep making the same mistake
      over and over until they get tired of the abuse.

      It has nothing to do with moderation. It has nothing to do with self
      moderation.

      It has to do with knowing the rules. If people know the rules, and they're
      printed in black and white, and they're forced to read them every single
      day before they log into this place, THEN...if they blatantly violate those
      rules...kick them out into the street.

      One of two things will then happen. Either the people left will take the
      hint and tow the line (posting only acceptable threads) or this place will
      become a ghost town. It's that simple.

      Maybe I'm more tolerant than most. I see a spam post, I report it. Other
      than that, if the post offers valuable advice or even if it's just thought
      provoking, I have no problem with it staying.

      But that's just me and it's not my forum.

      Just tell me what the rules are and put them in black and white.

      Don't make people guess.

      That's not a lot to ask.
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      • Profile picture of the author Terry Crim
        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

        Just tell me what the rules are and put them in black and white.

        Don't make people guess.

        That's not a lot to ask.

        http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...ead-first.html


        It is the sticky at the top of the main forum. Says "Warrior Forum Rules" those are the ONLY official rules, the others people talk about are mostly self imposed by the members themselves.


        - Terry
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        • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
          Originally Posted by Terry Crim View Post

          http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...ead-first.html


          It is the sticky at the top of the main forum. Says "Warrior Forum Rules" those are the ONLY official rules, the others people talk about are mostly self imposed by the members themselves.


          - Terry
          Then Terry, that is a HUGE problem because I get blasted for posts that
          do not in any way violate any of those rules.
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          • Profile picture of the author Terry Crim
            Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

            Then Terry, that is a HUGE problem because I get blasted for posts that
            do not in any way violate any of those rules.
            Little off topic but to answer your question. Member run forum.

            Like I said in an earlier post in this thread, People will like you, love you hate you or have no opinnion of you what-so-ever. You have NO control over what others think.

            Anytime you stick your head out prepare to be hit. People do have feelings, they do act immaturely, many do have alterior motives and will spite just to spite. If you live solely for Warrior Forum prepare to get hurt when people disagree with you, don't like you or try to sabotage you. It's life, it happens.

            I can give you a lot more specifically but I am not posting it as it is OFF Topic.


            - Terry
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      • Profile picture of the author tommygadget
        Originally Posted by NathanFalkner View Post

        I'd want to know if the three items Steven highlighted above are
        considered unsuitable for the main discussion forum so that I can
        adjust my own posting habits and also adjust my own use of the
        'report' button. It would really be helpful to have some clarity, to
        the extent any can be had, regarding those three items.
        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

        Last I looked at the Main Discussion rules I didn't see anything that said..

        You cannot talk about your success.
        You cannot post how to threads.
        You cannot answer questions in your area of expertise.

        Don't make people guess.

        That's not a lot to ask.
        Well, if those rules were true, we would not have much of a forum, now would we?

        TomG.
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      • Profile picture of the author TheRichJerksNet
        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

        Two posts I just read, after coming back from my inlaws for New Years,
        really struck a chord with me...Paul Myers and David Schwartz.

        David, I almost felt like I was reading what I've been feeling almost since
        the day I arrived here. I must be the most stubborn cuss in the world to
        keep doing this because let me tell you, it's not fun sometimes.

        Paul, you make so much sense with your posts that I wish I had your wisdom
        and ability to be rational about this.

        The problem is, I can't.

        I have knowledge to share, I share it.

        I've written books here, but I'm told that they have no place here.

        Yet, so many members thank me for those books. So many have learned
        so much.

        Yet, from others, I get torn to shreds.

        I have finally caved in and in another post said that I would not be
        starting any more threads here in the main discussion because I'm tired
        of the BS.

        I have people begging me to change my mind.

        So here I am torn between saving my sanity (because this place will
        surely drive me crazy if I keep doing what I've been doing) and helping
        those I came here to help 2 years ago.

        So now I'm further loaded down with the added guilt of feeling like I am
        letting those people down because of my selfishness to not want to be
        abused anymore for posting my "How I Made...." novels.

        So I can't win either way.

        All because of people here who have their own agenda and have decided
        that "how to" posts don't belong here.

        Last I looked at the Main Discussion rules I didn't see anything that said..

        You cannot talk about your success.
        You cannot post how to threads.
        You cannot answer questions in your area of expertise.

        If these are unwritten rules then let's write them. Let the thread in the
        main discussion area that has the rules of this forum actually post those
        rules. Otherwise, people are going to keep making the same mistake
        over and over until they get tired of the abuse.

        It has nothing to do with moderation. It has nothing to do with self
        moderation.

        It has to do with knowing the rules. If people know the rules, and they're
        printed in black and white, and they're forced to read them every single
        day before they log into this place, THEN...if they blatantly violate those
        rules...kick them out into the street.

        One of two things will then happen. Either the people left will take the
        hint and tow the line (posting only acceptable threads) or this place will
        become a ghost town. It's that simple.

        Maybe I'm more tolerant than most. I see a spam post, I report it. Other
        than that, if the post offers valuable advice or even if it's just thought
        provoking, I have no problem with it staying.

        But that's just me and it's not my forum.

        Just tell me what the rules are and put them in black and white.

        Don't make people guess.

        That's not a lot to ask.
        Steven,
        You have a great deal more wisdom than you give yourself credit for. There are many that also read your post that do not get involved in the discussion, such as me for one... I may not always post or say thank you because like many I have many things I am working on, but your post are very informative and helpful to the masses.

        There are some with their own agenda and those ones know who they are. What they seem to not understand, and many have posted this, there is a vast amount of people here that have a different train of thought. This is plain and simple human nature, not everybody is going to act and do as you say (meaning those with the agenda).

        Forbid that anyone mentioned religion but God did give us all "Free Will" and as such we are going to post the way we do, we are going to talk about what we know about, we are going to help the way we know how, we are going learn and give back the way we know how, and etc .....

        From the looks of this thread this goes way beyond some spammers or rule breakers... There are some that have posted on how they think this should be or that should be, which goes right back to what Steven posted to begin with. If you are going to complain how someone post or what they post and it is NOT against the rules then you (those with the agenda) are hurting this forum more than the spammers and scammers.

        Bottom line this is Allen's forum and what he says goes...

        Thats my take on it anyways...

        James
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    • Profile picture of the author psresearch
      Originally Posted by NathanFalkner View Post

      In a situation like this, you have two realistic options. If you've
      participated in the WSO and have first hand evidence that
      there is something problematic going on -- post your concerns
      right in the WSO thread itself. That's a must. Because it allows
      the WSO originator to address your concerns and potentially
      clear up any misunderstandings and/or to correct problems that
      might have slipped through the cracks. This is your first option.

      The second option is to go to the Warrior Forum help desk and
      report your concerns. Someone within the forums' administrative
      hierarchy will receive your message.

      To the extent you do all this and nothing happens, then that's
      just the way it goes. It could be that the ethical/moral/legal
      compass that you're using to guide you is different from that of
      the people behind the scenes making the decision as to whether
      a particular WSO stays, gets deleted, or is moved to the WCA
      section. At least you've voiced your concerns.
      OK. The reason I didn't do that is because I've seen when other people
      raise valid concerns the person running the WSO says it's against
      WSO rules because the person is "trashing the thread" so I thought
      my FIRST option was to report it to the help desk, which I did.

      The evidence I submitted was technical in nature and didn't have
      anything to do with an "ethical judgement" which is why I was
      surprised to see the WSO continue to run. But like you said not
      much I can do.

      Paul Schlegel
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    Oh I love what the self-moderators have done to the OT forum. Many of us liked to talk about politics in there - but because some didn't, rather than just staying the heck out of the threads, they put a stop to some, yes heated, but very relevant and interesting topics. Now we are relegated to what the heck is your favorite food, music etc idiocy. Real useful, real interesting. Yet the same people that were the cause of that censorship slammed on us in there are in the main forum breaking any and every rule there ever was. Go figure.

    All we have done here is build a playground for meglomaniacs. And it didn't stop the whiners at all - just put them in control. Makes you really want to pay attention to all the "is this ethical" posts, LMAO.
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    • Profile picture of the author tommygadget
      Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

      Oh I love what the self-moderators have done to the OT forum. Many of us liked to talk about politics in there - but because some didn't, rather than just staying the heck out of the threads, they put a stop to some, yes heated, but very relevant and interesting topics.
      Really? That's too bad because now I know I won't be going there anytime soon.

      TomG.
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    • Profile picture of the author Terry Crim
      Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

      Oh I love what the self-moderators have done to the OT forum. Many of us liked to talk about politics in there - but because some didn't, rather than just staying the heck out of the threads, they put a stop to some, yes heated, but very relevant and interesting topics. Now we are relegated to what the heck is your favorite food, music etc idiocy. Real useful, real interesting. Yet the same people that were the cause of that censorship slammed on us in there are in the main forum breaking any and every rule there ever was. Go figure.

      All we have done here is build a playground for meglomaniacs. And it didn't stop the whiners at all - just put them in control. Makes you really want to pay attention to all the "is this ethical" posts, LMAO.

      Well there you go. The problem then is the members. Get rid of the members and we won't have a problem anymore. LMAO

      That was a Joke for those that didn't understand.

      Rules, Rules and More Rules. Pretty much comes down to enforcement.

      I don't know. Allen at one time put so many restrictions and rules up that it was what? 6 pages or more. It was insane how specific they got.
      That lasted for oh.. a week or less I think. He got fedup with it and put up the ones we have now.

      Allen long ago pretty much came out and said. This is a place for talking about how to make money. All else needs to go somewhere else. That is the Topic of this forum. HOW TO MAKE MONEY. Not how I made 16 million dollars and oh how glad I am and please pat me on the back as I am the greatest person in the world and it took me 10 years and and chipped tooth to do it.

      Those type of posts belong on a blog somewhere. UNLESS there is actual reproducable steps included. That is what people are saying, the members or at least the ones that use the controls and vote posts up, down or out.

      You want to know what people want to read and see here? Read the trend of the posts that stay, minus the spam and self congratulation ones. The ones with real content that people can use, idea generators and specifics.

      What do you want to read about on the Topic of Making Money and expanding your business? That is the primary topic, not the other stuff.

      Well. I am at an end again as to what I can contribute. If I think of more or something else hits me I will post again. I am done working for today so that is mainly why I am here. I usually don't post much.

      I think it is funny in a way about the issue of moderating posts and "getting hammerd". It ain't the mods that are doing it. It's the other members and their opinions of what they want to see and what they don't.

      Interesting though to watch.


      - Terry
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  • Profile picture of the author Ouroboros
    Last time I looked there wasn't an option under the infractions for an "off topic" post.

    Allen has defined the rules that he feels are important and they are there for everyone to see. Use the tools he has given us and quit trying to decide what is acceptable.

    I was just reading a post in the main forum about "christmas presents", obviously an off topic post. Yet there have been 9 replies so far from people with well over a thousand posts.

    They had the choice to report the post or reply to it...

    sheesh, until Mr. Says tells me "your" rules are the rules, I'll go by his.

    After all, It's HIS forum, he just let's us use it.

    Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author sevenish
    I doubt Steven can see this post as I'm most likely on his substantial ignore list, but I'll take a stab.

    Steven, there are infinite gray areas and nuance when it comes to human interaction and perception. For example, if you walked into a professional networking event, you might be perceived as somewhat gouche to blurt out your income if unsolicited. You also might be avoided if you appear to be inflexible in your thinking when discussing strategy, methods and tactics -- yet continue to aggressively participate in and initiate discussions about them. Those sorts of behaviours can't be codified into a set of rules, in my opinion.

    I hope that you'll take this post in the spirit in which it's intended.
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Originally Posted by sevenish View Post

      I doubt Steven can see this post as I'm most likely on his substantial ignore list, but I'll take a stab.

      Steven, there are infinite gray areas and nuance when it comes to human interaction and perception. For example, if you walked into a professional networking event, you might be perceived as somewhat gouche to blurt out your income if unsolicited. You also might be avoided if you appear to be inflexible in your thinking when discussing strategy, methods and tactics -- yet continue to aggressively participate in and initiate discussions about them. Those sorts of behaviours can't be codified into a set of rules, in my opinion.

      I hope that you'll take this post in the spirit in which it's intended.
      Actually, I haven't nuked you yet.

      I understand what you're saying. But I'm not talking just about people
      just not liking my posts. I'm talking about them saying they don't belong
      and then reporting them and deleting them even though they don't break
      any of the forum rules.

      I'm a big boy. You wanna call me an egomaniac, fine. But don't take your
      dislike of me and report my post just because you feel it's inappropriate
      just because you don't like it. I mean you in the general sense. Not you
      specifically.

      So what ends up happening is that perfectly acceptable posts according
      to the rules
      get deleted and you reach a point where you just say, "The
      heck with it. It's not worth wasting my time making these posts (some
      taking over 45 minutes to write) when they're just going to get nuked.

      And many times they end up getting nuked not because of the post itself
      but because of all the fighting it starts.

      So you can't win. When you can't win, you stop playing the game.

      I've stopped playing the game. I'm not a total idiot.

      So from now on it's simple. Somebody has a problem, asks a question, I
      give an answer.

      It keeps me sane and out of trouble.
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      • Profile picture of the author sevenish
        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

        It keeps me sane and out of trouble.
        I'm not sure it's gonna be THAT effective.
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  • Profile picture of the author Trent Brownrigg
    I just want to chime in really quickly and say that I fully agree with the original post!
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  • Profile picture of the author TheToolWiz
    Banned
    [DELETED]
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    • Profile picture of the author ShayB
      I love this forum.

      I don't know what it used to be like. I don't care. I love it for what it is today and what it has meant to me and my family.

      I thank God I found this forum.

      I am so thankful that Allen created it.

      I can overlook the bad and the ugly and take the good from this forum - because there is so much good here.

      If I roll my eyes at a thread title, I mouse over it and see what it is about. If it is not my cup of tea, I don't read it. Simple.

      If I don't like something, I ignore it. There are too many threads here that are so full of good advice.

      If there is a spammer, I report it.

      If there is a thread I disagree with (but is not misleading or illegal), I ignore it. I don't have to post on a thread just to see my words in black and white. :rolleyes:

      I try to give back to this forum because of what is has done for me. I don't want to make waves for Allen or anyone else.
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      • Profile picture of the author tommygadget
        I don't know Shay, you seem like a real troublemaker to me

        TomG.

        Originally Posted by ShayRockhold View Post

        I love this forum.

        I don't know what it used to be like. I don't care. I love it for what it is today and what it has meant to me and my family.

        I thank God I found this forum.

        I am so thankful that Allen created it.

        I can overlook the bad and the ugly and take the good from this forum - because there is so much good here.

        If I roll my eyes at a thread title, I mouse over it and see what it is about. If it is not my cup of tea, I don't read it. Simple.

        If I don't like something, I ignore it. There are too many threads here that are so full of good advice.

        If there is a spammer, I report it.

        If there is a thread I disagree with (but is not misleading or illegal), I ignore it. I don't have to post on a thread just to see my words in black and white. :rolleyes:

        I try to give back to this forum because of what is has done for me. I don't want to make waves for Allen or anyone else.
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        • Profile picture of the author ShayB
          Originally Posted by tommygadget View Post

          I don't know Shay, you seem like a real troublemaker to me

          TomG.
          I know, I know. I blame Kevin's hamsters.:rolleyes:
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          • Profile picture of the author Harvey Segal
            Banning sig files will remove most of the problems raised by the OP.

            However it will have the detrimental effect of discouraging
            posters from providing helpful constructive answers to questions
            and thus earning, as a reward, the display of their sig file.

            So one way to help resolve this (though admittedly it's possible
            to abuse any system) is to disallow a sig file in a thread you
            have started.

            Harvey
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          • Profile picture of the author Kay King
            John -

            You are the best person I can think of to bring this subject up. The forum has degenerated - partly because of new members who don't know what is acceptable (or don't care) and also in large part by some longer term members who think they have the standing to get by with doing what they want.

            I don't have the solution - but I think Les touched on a good point when he said perhaps a combination of member moderation with (behind the scenes?) moderators would work better than the current system.

            It is basically what you were saying - leadership is needed. But maybe it could be quietly and behind the scenes.

            One problem currently is that Allen likes to have as few written rules as possible. With moderators that worked because they knew the unwritten rules. New members don't know the unwritten rules - and some others have forgotten.

            For effective member moderation, perhaps more rules do need to be in writing, concise and clear.

            kay
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            • Profile picture of the author ShayB
              We do have some of this:



              And this:



              Which leads to this:



              But we should have more of this:

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              • Profile picture of the author Ken Preuss
                Originally Posted by ShayRockhold View Post

                We do have some of this:



                And this:



                Which leads to this:



                But we should have more of this:

                Shay you summed it up so beautifully there's not a thing that could be added. Bravo.

                Ken
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      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
        Steven,

        Knock it off. If your sanity depends on anything that happens in a web-based discussion, you're way too close to the edge.

        It's just a forum, for Dog's sake!

        I have a thought for one way to raise the tone of the discussion here. Any time that Steven gripes about Les, and any time that Les snipes at Steven, we all report the post as harassment. It's been going on long enough that it's reached that stage, I think.

        In the real world, I only ever see this crap from teenaged girls, drunk bikers and professional drama queens (of both genders).

        Anyway...

        Someone complained about posts that get nuked by the members and brought back. I think they must be very confused, since a post coming back after that means that Allen or one of the Super Mods decided it was within the rules and had value. By definition, that post is not something to be complained about again, unless something very different is added that more blatantly breaks the rules.

        I don't care if it's about the reproductive habits of squid. If someone with the authority to resurrect a thread says it's on topic, it's damned well on topic.

        The biggest problem I see is a perennial one: People getting torqued off because their unjustified expectations aren't being met. Their personal preferences aren't being treated as Holy Writ.

        Get over it.


        Paul
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        Stop by Paul's Pub - my little hangout on Facebook.

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        • Profile picture of the author David McGimpsey
          Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

          I have a thought for one way to raise the tone of the discussion here. Any time that Steven gripes about Les, and any time that Les snipes at Steven, we all report the post as harassment.
          I think this is a perfect idea.

          It gets a bit tiring seeing so many well-intentioned threads degenerate into snipes and gripes.
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  • Profile picture of the author tommygadget
    We should be able to disagree without becoming disagreeable.

    TomG.
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  • Profile picture of the author mmurtha
    Nathan,

    Now I'll agree to this statement:

    This thread, if nothing else, has at least helped to raise
    the collective awareness of the need for all of us to be
    better stewards of the resource we've been given here.


    (And to do so without being overly disagreeable among
    one another in the process...)
    In many ways, I think this statement follows suit of what John's been saying all along about leadership. Leadership in here is about stuardship within this community.

    And I think this is what Allen may have had in mind when he made all members active Mods.

    Now if everyone does their part in the forum, there shouldn't be a problem.


    Just for the record, I also believe what Paul M. stated in that people want their preferences too, and this forum can't afford to have it both ways.

    So report when you need to, and use your better judgment when descerning whether or not to do so.


    Mary
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      John,
      The reason most people post in the main forum rather than specialist forums is because they can now get away with it.
      Aside from not realizing that those forums exist, I think there may be another reason or two.

      For me, those forums are for very specialized stuff, and for people who are only interested in a specific topic. I tend to think of them as being more advanced.

      If I think a thread on copywriting is going to be useful for newbies, I'm not going to post it in a forum for more advanced people. I'm going to post it in the main forum. This is especially true if I think it's something a newer person is unlikely to realize they need to know.

      Am I trying to get away with something? Or am I trying to do what's best for the majority of members? (Keep in mind that I haven't taken copywriting clients for years, and I never did take "walk-ins," so there's no self-promotion going on with that example.)

      If someone says to me, "Don't post anything at all in the main forum on a topic for which there's a sub-forum," I'm probably just not going to post anything on the subject anywhere. I'll just add it to the list of topics I don't post about here.


      Paul
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      Stop by Paul's Pub - my little hangout on Facebook.

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      • Profile picture of the author George Wright
        Good Point Paul,

        From my personal experience I don't recall having a "tip or trick" of mine that was of newbie caliber ever moved to another forum.

        However I do recall having my how to questions moved to the proper forum for the "specialists" to answer.

        George Wright

        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

        John,Aside from not realizing that those forums exist, I think there may be another reason or two.

        For me, those forums are for very specialized stuff, and for people who are only interested in a specific topic. I tend to think of them as being more advanced.

        If I think a thread on copywriting is going to be useful for newbies, I'm not going to post it in a forum for more advanced people. I'm going to post it in the main forum. This is especially true if I think it's something a newer person is unlikely to realize they need to know.

        Am I trying to get away with something? Or am I trying to do what's best for the majority of members? (Keep in mind that I haven't taken copywriting clients for years, and I never did take "walk-ins," so there's no self-promotion going on with that example.)

        If someone says to me, "Don't post anything at all in the main forum on a topic for which there's a sub-forum," I'm probably just not going to post anything on the subject anywhere. I'll just add it to the list of topics I don't post about here.


        Paul
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        "The first chapter sells the book; the last chapter sells the next book." Mickey Spillane
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  • Profile picture of the author Mark Singletary
    I was recently telling someone that rules were for people without common sense. That may work in some cases but here there are so many different personalities, so many nationalities, and so many reasons people come here that it's hard to have a common feeling about what is common sense.

    Some come to help others with no financial motive, some come to help others with financial motives, so come just for financial motives - to get all they can get for themselves.

    Then there are preferences that can cloud our judgment when we are talking about what's right and wrong. Let's take an advanced Warrior who is very smart, very opinionated and not afraid to express it, and has certain posting traits -- CAPS, lots of posts, etc.

    Some would look upon him or her as trying to be helpful and part of the community and look forward to every post.
    Some would look upon him or her as having an agenda of some sort.
    Some would look upon him or her as hogging bandwidth.
    Some would look upon him or her as rude or obnoxious due to the posting style.

    And while I may look forward to the posts today by the end of the week - mainly due to me and my circumstances - I may feel like he/she needs to give it a break and be sick of him/her.

    So you are going to get a lot of different ideas about everything and no clear cut feeling of what is right and wrong.

    A couple posters mentioned the old days. In the old days there were problems too.

    However it was different. We were more tight back then because there were fewer of us. And we all had paid financially for the privilege. Because it was a privilege, even with the family squabbles (and it was more like a family), we generally protected it more.

    I remember so many posts about not giving out the URL - because it was a family place - not open to the general public. Anyone could join the family but it was still a private thing - a privilege.

    Nowadays I get several emails every week from marketers with links to their newest WSO.

    Even though I know it is open now, I still cringe.

    I don't even go to any other forums anymore. There's no need. Nothing will ever replace the Warrior Forum in many of our eyes and there is no other place that can touch it today - even with the problems.

    As with most things there are pros and cons as to the best way to resolve problems.

    When what you're trying to protect, though, is seen as a commodity and just a place, you've got a long row to hoe.

    Mark
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  • Profile picture of the author admin
    Administrator
    I've already deleted a couple people because of this thread, I think I better close it before I have to remove more.

    There are so many responses I could make to this thread that my post would be a hell of task just to make coherent.

    So I'll revert to a few bullet points:

    * As far as this place being "open to one and all" you must be kidding. No one except for Tom and I know just how many people are removed from here on a daily basis. You would be shocked at the number.

    We're hated as being "Elitist" and have been since probably the beginning of this forum. If you sound retarded you get removed. That's cold but it can't be any other way unless we want this forum to degenerate into total nonsense.

    You spam, you bitch and moan constantly...you also get removed. Same reason as above.

    My point is if you think you don't already have a 'privilege' by being allowed to remain here, you don't know where the hell you're at.

    * It's ironic to me that threads on this exact topic have been brought up as far back as a year or two after this forum started. And I can see now that they will be brought up 10 years from now.

    If you compare the threads on the front of the forum right now to the front page of the old forum you will see that virtually nothing has really changed. Don't assume, just go do it, compare the two forums and you will see.

    What's really amazing to me is this...this is just ONE complaint thread. Back when we had Mods we had hundreds of them popping up every week. Every day someone was bitching about a Mod targeting them or some great thread got deleted.

    No one on the face of this earth will ever create a 'perfect' forum. You can forget that. As long as humans are what make up a forum there will never be perfection in any shape or form. Absolutely impossible. Quit wishing for it now, it will save you a lot of energy.

    * What really burns my ass is that some of the people who have responded in this thread are quick to jump on the doom bandwagon while they themselves NEVER contribute anything here. And I can bet my bank account they never report threads either.

    "Oooh I don't come here as much anymore"...well to that I say pack your bags and take your bitch ass to digital point. You're not contributing anything and you're not reporting threads that don't belong here so I don't think we're going to drown ourselves in whiskey over you leaving bunky. Adios.

    * Now getting to why John started this thread. I know why he did and I agree. It's not about spam, obvious spam is deleted here within minutes so there is nothing to complain about there.

    It's these losers coming in here only to take and rip off what they can. There ARE a lot more of them since the new forum started. That's the one area where the "Member Moderation" isn't working. They don't get discovered and removed fast enough.

    The truth is, for every 100 people who join this forum only about 10 are acceptable. As shocking as that may sound that's a real world figure and may be generous. It's more like only 5 are acceptable.

    We're going through a number of ways to correct this but it's not an easy thing to do.

    This is a problem I know about and have been working on to come up with something doable. All I can say about that right now is hang in there, I'm working on it.

    * The WSO forum. Boy what a pain in the ass that is huh? None of us like it do we? I'm going to fix that too.

    Have a Happy New Year!!

    Allen
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