Why do some Warriors hate upsells?

105 replies
I don't get it. Here's a comment I received today:

"To be honest... I feel a bit disappointed because I really hate upsell, it really makes me feel that I am only getting half of what I have just purchased."

Really? So, if you go to McDonald's, order a Big Mac with fries and a Coke, and they ask if you'd like to Super Size it, do you feel you're only getting half of what you've just purchased?

If you buy an electronic device, and the store clerk offers yuo the upgrade to a 5-year warranty, do you feel you're only getting half of what you've just purchased?

If you buy a stereo system, and the store offers an installation service, do you feel you're only getting half of what you've just purchased?

What I'm offering is an extra service (which some find helpful) so this attitude perplexes me. Why the hate of upsells? Can we get a good discussion going on this, please. Could be an enlightening experience.
#hate #upsells #warriors
  • Profile picture of the author Joseph Robinson
    Banned
    I think what they are trying to say is this: Sales copies always promise the world if you pay x amount for the product. They are convinced to pay for the product, and are then immediately told that they need to buy something else to succeed. Its kind of a blindsiding thing for newbies. Those who know whats going on though usually just buy if they are interested and ignore if they don't. Cut the newbies some slack.
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    • Profile picture of the author Kevin Riley
      Originally Posted by Joe128139 View Post

      I think what they are trying to say is this: Sales copies always promise the world if you pay x amount for the product. They are convinced to pay for the product, and are then immediately told that they need to buy something else to succeed. Its kind of a blindsiding thing for newbies. Those who know whats going on though usually just buy if they are interested and ignore if they don't. Cut the newbies some slack.

      OK. Point well taken. If the marketer is saying "that they need to buy something else to succeed" then it's "Bad marketer. No biscuit for you." Totally agree!
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    • Profile picture of the author kellyburdes
      If it was only just newbies that would be one thing, but I see long term supposedly experienced and successful warriors freaking out and whining about it all the time.

      Some of it can be accounted for the vendor just having a poor upsale funnel (Ie trying to sell you something that should have gone in the original package), but the vast majority of it, IMO, is a discomfort and dislike that people have of sales....which is kinda ironic for a bunch of marketers.

      My general observation though has been that "marketers" who hate sales and marketing, and being sold too, are most often failing....it's kind of hard to succeed at something if you end up self loathing over it.


      Originally Posted by Joe128139 View Post

      I think what they are trying to say is this: Sales copies always promise the world if you pay x amount for the product. They are convinced to pay for the product, and are then immediately told that they need to buy something else to succeed. Its kind of a blindsiding thing for newbies. Those who know whats going on though usually just buy if they are interested and ignore if they don't. Cut the newbies some slack.
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      • Profile picture of the author tpw
        Originally Posted by kellyburdes View Post

        If it was only just newbies that would be one thing, but I see long term supposedly experienced and successful warriors freaking out and whining about it all the time.
        Originally Posted by kellyburdes View Post

        My general observation though has been that "marketers" who hate sales and marketing, and being sold too, are most often failing....it's kind of hard to succeed at something if you end up self loathing over it.

        I think you nailed it twice.
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      • Profile picture of the author ExRat
        Hi Kevin,

        There are a variety of reasons.

        For those who conclude that -

        they are marketers that hate being marketed to. Much like those who complain about list owners promoting products to them
        ...well, to be frank, I would be cautious of jumping to that conclusion across the board as it can sometimes suggest a lack of understanding in terms of the psychology of the prospect during the funnel.

        Some people may fit this description, but definitely not all. It can also reflect back on the seller - when classing ones prospects in such a negative manner the seller should really be asking themselves why they are attracting a lower 'class' of prospect. It's much better to be able to turn around and say that you don't have so many of these type of problems because you only attract smart, clear-thinking, well-funded, logically-minded prospects because you attract them with your smart, clearly-thought out, logically presented material.

        There are a variety of ways in which one can make a mess of upsells and cause this reaction in buyers, some of which are mentioned above, such as 'upsell-hell'.

        For example, if you tell people that this product is 'the complete solution' or imply that it is all that they need for a certain subject and then try to upsell them the 'upgraded version' then you are clearly asking for trouble.

        I think that it's a lot easier to accidentally do this than a lot of people realise - it doesn't have to be blatant as in the above example.

        Alternatively, if you make a habit of teaching people that focus is important, and then your upsell unnecessarily leads them in a totally separate direction to the main product, that's not clever either.

        My point is that it's important not to view your salespages in isolation. If you have long-term subscribers and you have certain points that you repeatedly put across to them in your messages, if you contradict yourself in one of your salespages or the funnel, a customer can see this as disingenuous.

        It's important to understand the exact point they are at psychologically when they are given an upsell mid-funnel - between the point where they have paid and the point where they have received the product.

        They have given trust based on promises in the salespage. That trust has not been qualified yet, therefore they are at a very delicate stage where buyer's remorse is in it's early but 'first and lasting impression' stages purely due to the hit that they have just sanctioned to their finances and time.

        The majority of salespages are focussed on presenting a message like this -

        'Yes I know you have probably been burnt many times. But I care about you. I want to help you. Just trust me and I will satisfy those needs you have.'

        If you unceremoniously take on a different tone at the point of upsell which smacks of -

        'I want to get as much out of you as possible, right now, when I have got you where I want you' - then it's really easy to switch that 'hope' into buyer's remorse before they have even received the product and even if they choose not to take the upsell.

        Therefore, the end result can be that even if your product is perfect, the buyer's attitude can be altered to a state where they are negative about you and when they scan their purchase they can fail to see the positives, only the negatives - because they are consciously looking for salespage bullet points that aren't satisfied because they were misleading, or other bait and switches from the salespage. In this case, the upsell can turn a potentially well-executed sale into a refund request.

        No one likes to witness someone elses greed when they are paying for it, especially if that person has just promised them that they are there to help them and deliver a great deal and has asked for trust.

        If the upsell creates an impression that the seller is desperate to make as many sales as possible while the prospect has their wallet open, it can give the impression that the seller conducts their business in a manner that creates short-term relationships. What does this tell the prospect about the seller and their products, especially if all of the other material presented by the seller is designed to implant the suggestion that they are trying to build long-term, mutually beneficial relationships?
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    • Profile picture of the author Jaymark
      It's just like why so many people hate to be nickel and dimed when buying a car. It used to be some years back that the rear window defogger was an option. Who WOULDN'T want that on their car so why not just add it to the base price???

      If we see ads for a program which promises all kinds of benefits, then why make excuses for it immediately afterwards and get people to buy more information and services. I understand the logic and profit potential for upsells but can certainly see why it frustrates people.
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      • Profile picture of the author LoriwC
        Isn't it the case that upselling is part of the classic funnel sales model that we are all supposed to be aiming towards as part of our marketing strategy
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    • Profile picture of the author Alfredo Carrion
      Originally Posted by Joe128139 View Post

      I think what they are trying to say is this: Sales copies always promise the world if you pay x amount for the product. They are convinced to pay for the product, and are then immediately told that they need to buy something else to succeed. Its kind of a blindsiding thing for newbies. Those who know whats going on though usually just buy if they are interested and ignore if they don't. Cut the newbies some slack.
      That's a total valid point and I deeply understand it -sometimes I feel the same. BUT the fact that some not-so-nice marketers use to do this with their products, doesn't mean that upsells are a bad thing to do.

      Probably the best lesson here is to deliver what you said you're going to deliver and if you're going to upsell, upsell something valuable but optional. If it's not optional, but something you "need to make my product work", then you can expect some angry customers.

      Alfredo
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  • Profile picture of the author nossie
    If your product is awesome and you overdeliver with your product, then.. people actually want to buy your upsells.

    So its all about your product.

    The others that are still complaining are just cheap freebie seekers
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    • Profile picture of the author Candela
      Originally Posted by nossie View Post

      If your product is awesome and you overdeliver with your product, then.. people actually want to buy your upsells.

      So its all about your product.

      The others that are still complaining are just cheap freebie seekers
      I would not classify someone who does not like upsells as "cheap freebie seekers",I would say that most of them are just expecting to get everything they need in what they pay for,not to be told they received the basic package but to get the ultra super duper package they need to buy something else.

      In other words:
      http://clickbankrefunds.com/general/why-i-hate-upsells

      When I’ve just pondered for half an hour (ok 2 minutes) before deciding that the latest IM whizz-bang system is worth my hard-earned $47, I don’t want to be told on the next page that what I really really need to turbocharge my earnings is the Platinum Pro Booster version for an additional $67. Step forward Tweetomatic Profiteer – guilty as charged.



      Come on guys, I haven’t even got the wrapping off my newest shiniest toy and you’re already making me feel like a cheapskate for not upgrading. Bad psychology for me, but I guess it must work on someone.


      Almost, but not quite as bad, are the prolific authors like Ewen Chia. When I have just bought something that I am assured is all I’ll ever need to make my IM success a certainty, surely I could be spared the follow-up mails a day later telling me about a completely different system which is going to pull me off in a different direction.


      A body can only focus on so many things at once without going cross-eyed and falling over. One day a guru is telling me that Banner advertising is the way to go, the next with equal conviction that Pay Per View is the answer to my prayers. Enough already – I’m going to take an axe to some of these forests of lies and get mediaeval on their butts.


      For today I will start with a refund from CB Predator. 18 Clicks, they promised, to be up and running with a fully-fledged affiliate campaign. 18 Clicks. What they didn’t mention was:


      - the need to have a pre-existing domain and hosting arrangement (which came as a complete shock to the newbies who had bought the 18 clicks idea)

      - the need to re-write page after page of copy based on the template they provide, again something of an ordeal to the uninitiated.

      - the fact that hundreds of new entrants simultaneously targeting the same few niches with copy/paste identikit websites is likely to dilute the returns shown for the original site.
      I’m sure as can be that the only people making money from CBP are the vendors and their heavy-hitting affiliates.


      The vendors have done their best to pull it out of the fire, with remedial baby-step classes and webinars, but to me it seems fair to judge them against their original promises. The unsubscription is done and the refund application will swiftly follow. One down, a gazillion more to go… Now, where’s my receipt for Miracle Traffic Bot?
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  • Profile picture of the author WebPen
    Maybe because its hard to resist an upsell, and a $7 turns into a $24 investment (or whatever)

    Not saying that's a bad thing if they're getting a lot more value, but the psychology behind upsells is so powerful its ridiculous

    But upsells are just smart marketing- they make you more money, so it kind of doesnt matter if people are frustrated with it.

    People "hate" exit pops too...
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  • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
    Banned
    Originally Posted by Kevin Riley View Post

    I don't get it.
    Yes - I'm with you: I don't really get it, either. Unless the upsell is presented in such a way as to detract from the perceived value of the initial purchase. (Poor marketing, but people do sometimes do it that way).
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  • Profile picture of the author Yogini
    I think Joe has a good point. The sales page often makes the product appear to be self-sufficent, then if you get a one time offer or upsell, it can seem that you now require coaching, videos, a secret webinar etc to gain benefits. Depending on how the upsell is done, it can undermine the value of the initial product. When done poorly, it can also make the marketer appear greedy or desperate for making another sale. I think it can also make people question the sales page that makes the product appear to be the perfect solution. If so, why the upsell?

    Debbie
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    • Profile picture of the author tpw
      Originally Posted by Yogini View Post

      I think Joe has a good point. The sales page often makes the product appear to be self-sufficent, then if you get a one time offer or upsell, it can seem that you now require coaching, videos, a secret webinar etc to gain benefits. Depending on how the upsell is done, it can undermine the value of the initial product. When done poorly, it can also make the marketer appear greedy or desperate for making another sale. I think it can also make people question the sales page that makes the product appear to be the perfect solution. If so, why the upsell?

      Debbie

      The upsell is never required for success, nor is the original purchase for that matter...

      You want what I am offering in the first purchase...

      And now you really want the second offer, or you don't...

      It is not a right or a wrong issue at all...

      If a buyer supposes that "the world" will come packaged in a $7 or $17 offer, then they need a "perspective" upgrade, because the one that they are operating on is less than realistic.
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  • Profile picture of the author Always-A-Warrior
    Hey Kevin,

    Well hate to break it to you buddy but the guy is right. I don't mind one upsale in an offer but when you're trying to get to the product you've just purchased and all of the sudden other offers starts to pop up .... "For a limited time ..." and all of that, I question did I get what I paid for or is there another chapter to this story that I need to buy?.

    I think its much different between physical products and downloadable products. You are given a choice to super-size or not, take in a 5 year warranty or not and so on which is nice ... BUT with an upsell its so much different whereas the buyer expects to make a one-time purchase with everything included, but then all of a sudden a page pop ups and another one and another one .... thats when I myself say forget it and just X it out.

    I think if sellers would explain on the sales page to expect an upsale or two then maybe you would make more sales, but just to have limited time offers to pop up here and there is not good for me and probably that guy too.

    Now this is just me but there may be others that would disagree which is just fine.
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    • Profile picture of the author Kevin Riley
      Originally Posted by Always-A-Warrior View Post

      Hey Kevin,

      Well hate to break it to you buddy but the guy is right. I don't mind one upsale in an offer but when you're trying to get to the product you've just purchased and all of the sudden other offers starts to pop up .... "For a limited time ..." and all of that, I question did I get what I paid for or is there another chapter to this story that I need to buy?.

      I think its much different between physical products and downloadable products. You are given a choice to super-size or not, take in a 5 year warranty or not and so on which is nice ... BUT with an upsell its so much different whereas the buyer expects to make a one-time purchase with everything included, but then all of a sudden a page pop ups and another one and another one .... thats when I myself say forget it and just X it out.

      I think if sellers would explain on the sales page to expect an upsale or two then maybe you would make more sales, but just to have limited time offers to pop up here and there is not good for me and probably that guy too.

      Now this is just me but there may be others that would disagree which is just fine.

      OK, agree. If you're hitting people with upsell hell, that's just desperate and annoying. Makes me get outta Dodge real quick.
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  • Profile picture of the author Chris Worner
    Kevin, they are physical oxymorons, they are marketers that hate being marketed to. Much like those who complain about list owners promoting products to them. As pointed out earlier, some marketers do however promise the world on the sales page, then tell them the world will explode if they don't purchase the upsell, in which case their frustration is understandable.

    Admittedly, some do go bonkers with upsells which can be frustrating, especially if you are trying to access a purchase or trying to leave the page.

    Chris
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    • Profile picture of the author WebPen
      Originally Posted by Chris Worner View Post

      Kevin, they are physical oxymorons, they are marketers that hate being marketed to. Much like those who complain about list owners promoting products to them.

      Chris
      Consider this a Thanks....... because I ran out of them for the day.

      I know when I enter my name and email that I'm getting on someone's list and I'm gonna be marketed to- just like half the time I buy a product I expect an upsell.

      Sometimes I buy it, sometimes I don't.

      But whining about it- nah.
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    • Profile picture of the author marciayudkin
      don't get it. Here's a comment I received today:

      "To be honest... I feel a bit disappointed because I really hate upsell, it really makes me feel that I am only getting half of what I have just purchased."

      Really? So, if you go to McDonald's, order a Big Mac with fries and a Coke, and they ask if you'd like to Super Size it, do you feel you're only getting half of what you've just purchased?

      If you buy an electronic device, and the store clerk offers yuo the upgrade to a 5-year warranty, do you feel you're only getting half of what you've just purchased?

      If you buy a stereo system, and the store offers an installation service, do you feel you're only getting half of what you've just purchased?

      What I'm offering is an extra service (which some find helpful) so this attitude perplexes me. Why the hate of upsells?
      Kevin,

      You are right to try to seek insight into this reaction. Trying to argue away the customer's response by saying they are whiners or freebie seekers or simply stupid doesn't erase the fact that your customer feels this way.

      From the wording of your customer's comment, it appears that your customer felt that your upsell pitch diminished the value of their buying decision. A smart waiter compliments the customer on their choice of entree before suggesting something to go with it. I would suggest taking a careful look at the wording of your upsell to see if you can first reiterate the value of the original purchase before going on to suggest the add-on. Or see if you can switch the wording so that it doesn't imply that there's anything incomplete about the thing they just pressed the "buy" button for. For example, "Most of our customers also buy..." gives quite a different impression from "You'll also want to get..."

      You also might try using some of the analogies in your question in your upsell to head off this reaction. For example, you could say that just as a five-year warranty extends the useful life of an appliance you buy, your coaching (or whatever) heightens the impact of the course. That might get the light bulb to go on in the minds of people who might otherwise recoil from an upsell.

      Marcia Yudkin
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      • Profile picture of the author Kevin Riley
        Originally Posted by marciayudkin View Post

        A smart waiter compliments the customer on their choice of entree before suggesting something to go with it.
        Actually, this smart waiter did just that. And, I do go on to tell them that they don't need it.
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        • Profile picture of the author Tom B
          Banned
          Originally Posted by Kevin Riley View Post

          Actually, this smart waiter did just that. And, I do go on to tell them that they don't need it.
          That could be your problem! Telling your customer they don't need the product after they purchase it can get them a little randy. :p

          I think some marketers mess up their upsells which can lead to customers feeling they didn't get everything they should have. Complimentary products are best, like software products that help automate the material.

          You can also upsell resell rights, plr rights to the product without offending many people.

          I suspect your customer was expecting the mankini calender as part of the original purchase.

          And sometimes people just like to complain about everything to do about marketing while they build an online marketing business.
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        • Profile picture of the author JustinDupre
          Originally Posted by Kevin Riley View Post

          Actually, this smart waiter did just that. And, I do go on to tell them that they don't need it.
          I know these servers are really smart in up selling and etc. I did definitely learn a thing or two from my friend who was a server for a few years and now hes one of the best car sales man in town.
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    • Profile picture of the author Frank Donovan
      Originally Posted by Chris Worner View Post

      Kevin, they are physical oxymorons, they are marketers that hate being marketed to.
      Actually, most customers are likely to be consumers who only dream about being marketers.
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      • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
        Originally Posted by Frank Donovan View Post

        Actually, most customers are likely to be consumers who only dream about being marketers.
        There's an old saying...

        If you want to date the strippers, you can never buy a lapdance.

        Lots of people don't quite grasp that.
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      • Profile picture of the author tpw
        Originally Posted by Frank Donovan View Post

        Actually, most customers are likely to be consumers who only dream about being marketers.

        Nailed it!!!

        And we welcome them to the Warrior Forum equally...
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      • Profile picture of the author Laurie Rogers
        If you're trying to sell people things that they really don't need or hit them with upsell after upsell after upsell, then yes that gets annoying, I can see a few upsells that are related to the product or service, but there's no need for 10 to 20 and I've seen a lot of that this year.

        If a product or service requires something additional just to work, that you're not including in the price, tell the people ahead of time. ie: some folks tell you that will you get this wonderful "business in a box" pkg - you get a pretty web site all custom built for you for the low cost of $10 or something.

        Now I know that there's going to be additional costs coming my way, because I know better lol. However, a newbie is not going to know better and when he finds out that in order to get that pretty web site for $10 he has to register a domain for x amount of years and commit to a web hosting contract for x amount of years too (and pay it all up front) ... he's not going to be too happy about it.

        There have been a few products like that come out this year and I have received more complaints about those, than any other products. I wasn't selling or endorsing them, but none the less, people still ranted to me about them.
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  • Profile picture of the author Shaun OReilly
    I don't mind an upsell if it is relevant and helps me to get more
    out of my initial purchase.

    I think the root of the dislike of upsells problem with many people
    is that some sellers execute upsells very, very poorly.

    The way that many sellers present their upsells and downsells
    is such that it's viewed as a way that is more focused on the
    self-serving interests of the seller rather than meeting the
    needs of the buyer.

    If you work hard on creating a good initial offer and a related
    upsell and show people why it's in their best interests to buy
    them, you'll get less resistance and objections.

    Many sellers are just too bloody lazy in crafting their initial
    offer and upsell offer so that they come across as self-serving
    rather than customer-focused.

    It all comes down to effective vs. ineffective execution of a
    proven strategy.

    Dedicated to mutual success,

    Shaun
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  • Profile picture of the author Eduard Stinga
    Depends on the buyer, if they're penny pickers, they will feel like you didn't offer them EVERYTHING you could have. You should just let them be, they won't get far with that mentality anyway.
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  • Profile picture of the author Tom B
    Banned
    Originally Posted by Gujju Boy View Post

    I am fine with the upsells if they are related with the product. However, i am not okay if some what sells a $7 WSO and then i see $197 upsell. (even if it's related to the main $7 product because that upsell is always out of my price range).
    That makes no sense to me. You are ok with upsells as long as they fit in a particular price range? :confused:
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  • Profile picture of the author Yogini
    This may not be a popular suggestion, but perhaps looking at the upsells offered as a product creator can be a way to see if the original product can be improved. Will the person purchasing it feel that they have no idea how to implement the main product? If so, adding screenshots or videos to the original product might make it much more useful. A big complaint people have about internet marketing products is that they received an idea but have no clue how to carry it out.

    I don't think I've ever seen these bulletpoints in someone's sales letter before the one time offer:

    You will be doing this manually and it may take you 6 to 8 hours.

    After learning the main concept you'll need to study youtube videos to learn how to implement it, buy the additional coaching or go to fiverr to have someone else do it for you.


    Debbie
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  • Profile picture of the author christopher jon
    I think what they are trying to say is this: Sales copies always promise the world if you pay x amount for the product. They are convinced to pay for the product, and are then immediately told that they need to buy something else to succeed.
    This.

    I think some marketers mess up their upsells which can lead to customers feeling they didn't get everything they should have. Complimentary products are best, like software products that help automate the material.
    And that.

    Or in other words, some people are doing it wrong.
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  • Profile picture of the author Afreidman
    I think for me it's annoying when you feel like you are going to get EVERYTHING you need for the fee that the seller is selling their product only to discover that without XYZ its not worth anything....

    I was really surprised at first but then realized that its all part of the game and when it comes to high ticket or Scammy products its best to check reviews here on the warrior forum or check how many up sells they have on clickbank.

    Up sells are no problem when they don't make the base product worthless!
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  • Profile picture of the author visimedia
    I think it' depends on the people, if they hate upsell, they will hate it even if they go restaurant to buy food, =) Not all warriors will hate it. Maybe they feel they want to get the best deal with the money they've just spent. =)
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  • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
    Banned
    Originally Posted by Kevin Riley View Post

    I don't get it. Here's a comment I received today:

    "To be honest... I feel a bit disappointed because I really hate upsell, it really makes me feel that I am only getting half of what I have just purchased."
    I don't think the majority of us think like that. You just got hold of an idiot. It happens.
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  • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
    Originally Posted by Kevin Riley View Post

    ...it really makes me feel that I am only getting half of what I have just purchased.
    It's the tight relationship between the two products. It basically feels like this.

    "Here's all you need to be an affiliate marketer for $10."

    All right, awesome, I'll take it.

    "You know, if you want to be a GOOD affiliate marketer, you should get this for $17 more or you will be a dork and not make any money."

    Wait, you just said it was all I need. Now you're saying I will be a dork and not make any money. I feel like you just tried to rip me off. And if, like so many people these days, you show me the upsell AFTER the payment has been handed over for the main product... hey! That's cheating!

    "Now that I have your money, I'm going to reveal to you why exactly you still do not have what you need and should give me more money."

    In most people's experience, this goes on forever. Free report. $5 report. $10 report. $20 report. $100 membership. $500 group coaching. $2,000 individual coaching. $10,000 seminar. $30,000 intensive retreat. A lot of would-be business owners (including myself) have been burned and burned badly by these kinds of things.

    There's even a general rule of thumb for buying info products via the late-night infomercial: just say no to upsells. If you've been in this game for very long, you start to get very suspicious of the marketer who sells you one module after another on the same subject, because you just know the final module never shows up at all and you're just being suckered into handing over money.

    The problem in this case is that Kevin is one of the good guys, but the tactic he's using - upsell more of the same - feels an awful lot like what the bad guys do. When it starts being hard to tell the good guys and the bad guys apart, it's just prudent to assume anything that looks like a bad guy probably is.

    Now, for a great example of doing it right, Tim Castleman's latest WSO of the Day today (Instant Cash Formulas) is a fantastic role model.

    "Here's a $10 course on affiliate marketing. Hey, would you like to pay $17 more for a pair of courses on list building and product creation?"

    The upsell is for different stuff. That doesn't feel like I've been ripped off for my $10. It feels like I'm getting a 15% discount on two more $10 courses. Overall, that's $30 and I got 10% off, woohoo. This is underscored by delivery, when each course is roughly the same size and delivered in very nearly the same way. There are all these subtleties that add up to an awesome buying experience, even before you look at the content.

    It occurs to me that I'm lecturing the Product Creation Labs guy on the "right" way to upsell, and now I feel oddly embarrassed and just want to go hide somewhere.
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    • Profile picture of the author bretski
      Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post


      Now, for a great example of doing it right, Tim Castleman's latest WSO of the Day today (Instant Cash Formulas) is a fantastic role model.

      "Here's a $10 course on affiliate marketing. Hey, would you like to pay $17 more for a pair of courses on list building and product creation?"

      The upsell is for different stuff. That doesn't feel like I've been ripped off for my $10. It feels like I'm getting a 15% discount on two more $10 courses. Overall, that's $30 and I got 10% off, woohoo. This is underscored by delivery, when each course is roughly the same size and delivered in very nearly the same way. There are all these subtleties that add up to an awesome buying experience, even before you look at the content.

      It occurs to me that I'm lecturing the Product Creation Labs guy on the "right" way to upsell, and now I feel oddly embarrassed and just want to go hide somewhere.
      That's a perfect example... and too many times the upsell is "blind", which I find frustrating. If I KNEW what the upsell WAS I would be more likely to hand my money over GLADLY! You've already sold me. I trust you and I would probably buy from you again. But you're giving me a bargain...

      Which reminds me of OTOs. Fake OTOs with a ton of hype make me suspicious. Sure, a OTO for the DISCOUNT is cool but don't lead me to believe that you have this product that you created and the only way I am ever going to see that offer again is if I buy it right then and there! I am suspicious by nature and most OTOs reek of BS and late night informercialism.
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      • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
        Interesting discussion. Thanks for starting it, Hamster Man...

        After reading all the replies, I've come to one conclusion.

        IT'S THE DAMN DUCKS!

        As in 'if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it must be a duck.'

        People have been exposed to so many ill-concieved, poorly executed upsells and OTOs that they see one and try to identify the duck. It doesn't matter if you show them a swan; all they see is the damn ducks.

        The same applies to email lists, especially among the newer folks who eagerly sign up for anything, only to have their inboxes flooded with lazy or clumsy offers on a daily basis.

        Not sure what the solution is, other than finding a way to put up a virtual "Swan Crossing" sign next to the upsell...
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      • Profile picture of the author Nick Barton
        It's not only upsells that people complain about, it's almost every standard sales technique.

        How often do you see complaints about scarcity tactics or other limited offers?

        I've lost count of the number of times I've seen posts saying these things don't work anymore, yet every time I turn on the TV I see the same companies announcing that their sale is about to end. I know that there is going to be a new sale starting as soon as the last one ended, but I am marketing aware, as are the majority of people on here.

        These companies spend millions on their ad campaigns, if they weren't working they would stop using them.
        You just have to accept that on here we are not typical consumers.

        As for upsells, the big question is how many people buy the upsell, as opposed to how many abort the original purchase. I'm quite sure that you could put a figure on the increase in revenue that your upsell creates, can't you Kevin?

        Personally I love being sold to well, but it makes me cringe when it's done badly. The only time I dislike upsells is when I can see that it would be a sensible purchase but it's outwith my budget. Then it's just frustrating!

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  • Profile picture of the author Flyingpig7
    I couldn't agree more with ExRat he has hit the nail on the head.

    This is a very delicate process that has to be thought out with greater care when you're designing your pages and the way you structure the selling process.
    I'm one of those people who hates the upsell if I'm not expecting it.

    Don't mind if I'm told that there are other offers that are going to be presented to me by the seller or a promotion by one of his/her friends if this is explained on the first page before I pay. A process I have occassionally come across by a smart marketer who knows not to offend or try to SELL to . As ExRat and others here have explained it's all in the approach.
    I hope the OP has a better understanding in what people mean when they get into a little rant :-] about upsells. I've even one or twice come across upsell...upselll...upsell...several times in the same process before I've got to the download page. Imagine how that feels.....nausating it'nt it. Yes you're right poor marketing. There now I feel better :-)

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  • Profile picture of the author ysckyler
    I guess nowadays, people just want their money worth. Look at most of the product these day being sold, they say at the sales page that you get everything, then when you purchase, the ups ells come to tell you that hey, if you do not get this you wont be able to succeed. So people feel the sense of being cheated.

    Nowadays up sells rarely being sold as compliment to what their getting, the marketers also comes in the stand point of missing link, if you do not get this, you wont receive the full power of what u just bought. So buyers feels a lil disapointed they are getting half what they bought.

    Does this make sense?
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  • Profile picture of the author Rus Sells
    Personally I feel an up sell should be a complimentary product, not something that makes the product or method I just paid for "better" or "more effective".

    That's deceptive, scammy, insulting, and one of the many reasons IM is being cracked down on in my opinion.

    What's happening, (not with all product owners) is product owners are segmenting the product when they could just offer the whole thing for the original price plus the up sell price and be done with it.

    The product either stands alone and is effective as is, or it isn't.

    Related products as an up sell works great if you think about it and offer it in a way that the buyer can identify with. This is what many major online retailers use and I would think they have spent the funds in research on the matter to know whats most effective. They don't just do it too do it.

    Its like a topic on here some time ago about Facebook letting users decide if ads were relevant or not. Some poster commented on how stupid that was and that he'd make his visitors see whatever ad he wanted and not give them a choice. I quickly retorted, "When you own a multibillion dollar company I'll listen to you about this topic.

    Are we just mimicking what other marketers are doing without actually thinking about it? Just following suit, just because? I think in a lot of cases, yes!

    People who bought "How to build a list" also bought, "The Do's and Don't when Marketing to your list." or "Now you have a list, Learn how to build a relationship with your list."
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    • Profile picture of the author Audrey Harvey
      [QUOTE=Rus Sells;4245066]Personally I feel an up sell should be a complimentary product, not something that makes the product or method I just paid for "better" or "more effective".

      [/QUOTE

      I agree that upsells shouldn't make a product "better" or "more effective", because the product should do or teach what it says it will. However, I think it's fine if an upsell makes the system "easier". For example, "here's how to get lots of backlinks manually that will rank your site quicker". Upsell of "here's some software that will automate that same process" is just fine by me. The original product does the job, the upsell just makes it less labour intensive.
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  • Profile picture of the author GameVoid
    It's a personal preference thing. Being from Middle America I like to feel like the person I am buying from is being genuine. When they present me with a 20 minute sales pitch for their $7.00 product and then as soon as the see me take out my wallet they immediately try to get more money out of me then they look like a snake oil salesman.

    Yes, it's a valid marketing technique, and yes it works on a lot of people, but many of us have our reasons for not trusting them, and oddly enough those reasons can be found right in Kevin's list of examples. Super sized combo meals, extended warranties, and installation services are well known sucker deals. For instance a DVD player might cost $50 and the extended warranty is $29.99. The only reason the retailer even offers the $29.99 extended warranty is because less than 10% of the people who buy it will ever use it. Best Buy will happily charge you $39.99 for an "optimization" of your laptop that takes them 3 minutes to do. Wendy's will happily let you pay an extra 30 cents for the 1 pennies worth of extra soda.

    Remember that a lot of people who don't become successes at IM are more than aware of the concept of the "sales funnel". Many people don't like the idea of someone trying to suck them into that funnel. They don't mind buying from you, but they don't want that purchase to be Step 1 of the master plan to drain their wallets.
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  • Profile picture of the author mahesh2k
    I hate upsells and there is reason behind it. If anyone sells me wordpress theme and then asks me to buy plugin to use that theme and then asks me to buy Ebook or membership support for both plugin and theme then i think that's cheating. I asked for the theme and that's what i want and not some plugin to make it work or support subscription to get both things going. There are things which can be put easily instead of trapping customers for your gain. In case of softwares - upsells make that product look more of scam than solution.
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    • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
      Banned
      Originally Posted by mahesh2k View Post

      I hate upsells and there is reason behind it. If anyone sells me wordpress theme and then asks me to buy plugin to use that theme and then asks me to buy Ebook or membership support for both plugin and theme then i think that's cheating.

      He didn't say his upsell was something that was required or beneficial to make the original product work.

      He said: "What I'm offering is an extra service (which some find helpful) so this attitude perplexes me"

      That is an additional, extra product. The original product has the same value with or without the upsell.
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    • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
      Originally Posted by mahesh2k View Post

      If anyone sells me wordpress theme and then asks me to buy plugin to use that theme and then asks me to buy Ebook or membership support for both plugin and theme then i think that's cheating.
      Okay, so just to be clear.

      Would you prefer that vendors make you buy all three of these things whether you want them or not...

      Or that the plugin and support just weren't available at all?
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  • Profile picture of the author kPybus
    most upsells have nothing to do with the product being offered. Sometimes it's like the guy put no effort into fining a good upsell, and sometimes it's just bad JV's.

    Now when the guy is pushing a super sweet deal on his own product, and then offers you an upsell for more, then it all comes down to value.

    Then you also have the guy who sells you a crap ebook to being with and forces you to buy the upsell to get what you were looking for in the first place. Those people should be called scammers, not IM'ers.
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  • Profile picture of the author Hardy Chou
    If you are a marketer who genuinely believes in your products, you will be ripping your customers off if you don't put out more offers. The hatred for upsells is because these people are not marketers in the very first place.
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    • Profile picture of the author KateHunter
      Badly done upsells are common and super annoying. A lot of upsells are so badly described you would have to buy them just to figure out what they are, same goes for a lot of products actually. In anycase you always want to check out the product first before buying the upsell.
      Speaking of annoying, I threw my laptop into the wall the other day cause it was the only way to stop an exit popup that just wouldnt quit- wait dont leave, get your special report, hit cancel now, oh wait dont leave without getting your special video, wait don't leave, (OK OK OK OK please just make this tab close) but wait we have this super magic free special bonus for you, arrrrrrhhhhhhh! ANy more than ONE exit popup is definitely too many.
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  • Profile picture of the author mahesh2k
    Oh i need to be more clear in my reply. I'm trying to point out annoying upsells which make original product useless without additional purchases. I didn't meant that reply towards kevin or his products. Posted that example of wordpress themes/plugin to point out annoying upsells in soft. industry.
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    • Profile picture of the author HorseStall
      Upsells can be very effective at increasing the dollar amount spent on an order, but they have to be done right. The upsell must be related to the initial product or it typically won't convert well. Additionally if you are selling a high ticket item you may not want to offer an upsell, because like it or not you will lose some purchasers with every step added to the order process.
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      • Profile picture of the author Hardy Chou
        They can also be done wrong and still make more money just because the marketer takes action.

        If you sell high ticket item, you should have an upsell. Infact, if you sell ANYTHING, you should have an upsell.

        Originally Posted by HorseStall View Post

        Upsells can be very effective at increasing the dollar amount spent on an order, but they have to be done right. The upsell must be related to the initial product or it typically won't convert well. Additionally if you are selling a high ticket item you may not want to offer an upsell, because like it or not you will lose some purchasers with every step added to the order process.
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        • Profile picture of the author John Piteo
          I'd say that people don't like upsells in the Internet marketing market more than any other market. This is because there are so many low quality products in the IM market.

          People think to themselves, "OK, I'll try another one, it's only twenty seven bucks". They think the product MAY work but they are very skeptical. Then they get hit with an upsell. They think, "wait a second, give me a chance to see that your first product is good before you try to sell me something else."

          I can't deny that upsells work, but I know that many prospects don't like them. I also know, from my many years of experience as a sales manager in an offline business, that people don't like pushy salesman; however, the pushy salesmen usually outsold the softsell sales person. I, personally, was not a pushy salesman so I settled for making a little less money, but my customers loved me. The pushy sales people bragged about their closing percentage yet I was the one that was promoted to be their manager and trainer, go figure.

          As for online, I make a good product (just like all of Kevin's products). AFTER my customer's try it they want more. Instead of offering them an upsell before they try it (which I'd probably make more money) I'd rather wait a couple of days then offer them an upsell.

          Who knows, I may change my thinking about upsells at some point, but for now I'm happy knowing I'm not pissing off my customers.
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        • Profile picture of the author Laurie Rogers
          Where on earth did you learn about IM? This is the 3rd post from you today that makes absolutely no sense.

          Originally Posted by Hardy Chou View Post


          If you sell high ticket item, you should have an upsell. Infact, if you sell ANYTHING, you should have an upsell.
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          • Profile picture of the author kindsvater
            McDonalds - you have ordered fries and are asked if you want a bigger order. You're still getting fries. The regular size and bigger size are prominent on the menu. So are their prices.

            Or you're asked if you want a drink with your order, because almost everyone orders a drink with their burger and you may have forgotten.

            IM Crap - you order a product you think will accomplish X. But before you can buy, there is an upsell, then a downsell, then another downsell, then another upsell, and yet another upsell.

            All of which are either unrelated, or it turns out you need them to accomplish what you thought you were originally buying. The sales pitch is fraudulent.

            None of which are described on the original sales page.

            None of which have their prices on the original sales page.

            There is no 'forgetting' to request a drink with your order.

            Even worse, it's not a simple question and answer that take half a second.

            All these upsells and downsells invoke their own long and drawn out sales pages.

            Often couched under high pressure "one time offers".

            I don't remember having a "one time offer" being made at McDonalds. If you don't order the bigger size of french fries right friggin now you'll never have another chance in your lifetime.

            There's a HUGE difference between upsells at McDonalds and what Internet marketers are exposed to.

            Then what happens is the marketer looks at their stats and what sold, and thinks they're real smart by increasing their profits from this.

            Forgetting to factor in the lost orders, such as mine.


            .
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        • Profile picture of the author tayuyaa
          I think that those who hate upsells are mostly
          buyers, while those who love them are sellers! lol

          So if you find someone complaining about upsells,
          you know that is not a marketer/seller but a buyer...

          People want to make money but they dont want to
          sell...?? They need to learn marketing....
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          • Profile picture of the author Laurie Rogers
            I'm not a buyer, I'm a seller and not everyone is saying they outright hate upsells, some of us are discussing why we dislike certain types of upselling.

            Originally Posted by tayuyaa View Post

            I think that those who hate upsells are mostly
            buyers, while those who love them are sellers! lol

            So if you find someone complaining about upsells,
            you know that is not a marketer/seller but a buyer...

            People want to make money but they dont want to
            sell...?? They need to learn marketing....
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            • Profile picture of the author Ben Armstrong
              There are 2 kinds of upsells I hate

              1. Upsells that de-value the initial product and what was promised on the sales page.

              For instance if I purchase a course on internet marketing and then I'm offered an upsell for group coaching or site membership then that's fine with me.

              However if I'm told that I'll find it difficult or much less effective to follow the initial course without the group coaching or site membership then I have good reason to be pissed off.

              2. If your upsell is something that was obviously carved out of the initial product purely to be used as an upsell (something you see video game companies doing with their DLC) then you shouldn't be marketing at all.
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  • Profile picture of the author mahesh2k
    Some themes and plugins do need support so i prefer to get it in package instead of dependency purchase. e.g. StudioPress and Thesis has support included in developer/Pro license purchase. So it's not question of whether i need support or not, because most of the softwares are hard to manage without official support. There are some freelancers who do dependency upsells and also some known developer firms like WPMU and Pagelines using this type of model.
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  • Profile picture of the author Qamar
    I hate upsells! Period.

    Why don't you just include your upsells into your main products?
    Are you scared that prospects will get turned off by your offers if you are going to do that?

    So you decide to offer them with basic products that are super-glorified on the sales page, giving the impression that the product is sufficient to be successful.

    But once the prospects bought the hypey-salespage drama and made the purchase, they are suddenly hit again with another extra "optional" product to make their life easier?

    This is not Mc Donald where you know EXACTLY what you are getting when you purchase your meals and you can decide to get the upsell or not.

    People buy online based solely on the salespage promises and maybe testimonials of pass buyers. So when they are hit again with another offer of similar product, of course it will give the impression that the main product is insufficient and they have to invest more to be able to get the whole system.

    This is where people felt cheated by the sales page promises, screenshots of earnings, list of benefits that they will get if they get the product etc.

    I agree with what John Piteo has said that is to offer them an upsell after my customers have tried my main product although I know this will make me less sales but at least my conscience is cleared.

    I don't buy most of the reasoning mentioned above, especially the Mc Donald's example.


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  • Profile picture of the author JCorp
    Originally Posted by Kevin Riley View Post

    I don't get it. Here's a comment I received today:

    "To be honest... I feel a bit disappointed because I really hate upsell, it really makes me feel that I am only getting half of what I have just purchased."

    Really? So, if you go to McDonald's, order a Big Mac with fries and a Coke, and they ask if you'd like to Super Size it, do you feel you're only getting half of what you've just purchased?

    If you buy an electronic device, and the store clerk offers yuo the upgrade to a 5-year warranty, do you feel you're only getting half of what you've just purchased?

    If you buy a stereo system, and the store offers an installation service, do you feel you're only getting half of what you've just purchased?

    What I'm offering is an extra service (which some find helpful) so this attitude perplexes me. Why the hate of upsells? Can we get a good discussion going on this, please. Could be an enlightening experience.




    Upsells suck if you need it to make most of the original purchase work, or if you think that you're getting the full version, then all of a sudden the upsell is for the elite (gold, platinum, etc.) version. That's when people feel cheated. All of my upsells are different programs, not an upgraded, gold, etc., version of what they already bought. If I ever do a gold, platinum, or upgraded version, I'll have them choose which option they want at the beginning, and put a different program as an upsell.
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    • Profile picture of the author Qamar
      Originally Posted by warrior600 View Post

      All of my upsells are different programs, not an upgraded, gold, etc., version of what they already bought. If I ever do a gold, platinum, or upgraded version, I'll have them choose which option they want at the beginning, and put a different program as an upsell.
      I agree fully with this kind of upsells.
      I will be PLEASED to receive upsells or OTOs as long as it does not make me feel "cheated" with the main product that I have bought. Any upsells that claimed can make my life easier will really pissed me off.



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    • Profile picture of the author ExRat
      Hi JohnMcCabe (comment#38),

      Not sure what the solution is, other than finding a way to put up a virtual "Swan Crossing" sign next to the upsell...
      I realise you were referring to a solution for the 'duck' problem, so my answer might be off the mark, and I also realise that some will call me crazy or stupid (R. Puddy ) but my solution is just to chill - be patient.

      I like the idea of long term business relationships, even though in this market that might be swimming against the tide.

      I don't worry about leaving money on the table, I don't worry if the long term approach makes me less than the short term one would in a market.

      I think that there are hidden benefits. For example - I might lose X amount of business from people I could have upsold to but didn't, but it's impossible to quantify the word of mouth effect from treating people in a way that is -

      a) agreeable to them

      b) different to the majority of other sellers

      They might tell a lot of people about me. They might tell them really nice things about me, doing my preselling for me. They might buy off me more regularly, read more of my pages, push more of my +1 type buttons. They might buy something they want through my link rather than the next guys. They might comment on my blog more than the next guys. There are a lot of things that they might do.

      Hi mahesh2k (comment#40),

      I hate upsells and there is reason behind it.
      I must admit I don't understand why people say that they 'hate' them.

      I love to see other sellers doing the opposite of what I described above in my answer to John and just following the herd, doing exactly what some big shot told them to do in his ebook because he didn't look deeply enough at all of the variables and in order to sell his ebook, says -

      2+2=4 therefore if you want 4, get 2 lots of 2 and add them together.

      Meanwhile, I get all of the 1s and 3s and put them together to make 4.

      Hi Nick Barton (comment#43),

      As for upsells, the big question is how many people buy the upsell, as opposed to how many abort the original purchase. I'm quite sure that you could put a figure on the increase in revenue that your upsell creates, can't you Kevin?
      Again, I would refer to the hidden benefits of different approaches.

      If the big question is purely 'how many buy the upsell vs how many abort', then you are suggesting that long term reputation and customer satisfaction has no value.

      Have you ever seen IM forum posters commenting about a seller and offering an unsolicited testimonial in a thread about 'sellers you like', saying stuff like -

      I like seller Joe Bloggs because he is consistent - he never makes me feel used when I buy from him, he never contradicts himself (even though I've been following him for 8 years) and he never seems desperate to get my money - only desperate to help me to succeed. He seems to really care and be honest and is careful to show this in the way that he does business.

      I have. I've written stuff like that about people on occasion. How much is that worth? How many passing eyes see that recommendation over the years?

      It's impossible to accurately judge what those type of things are worth, but if you only focus on hard figures such as 'successful upsells vs cart abandonments/refunds' then you are suggesting that these things hold so little value that they are not worth considering.

      I reckon that as the market grows and more and more people copy each others poor tactics, these word of mouth recommendations get exponentially more valuable by the day. And that's just one of the hidden benefits of 'wowing' people by being different, not being desperate and treating them with the utmost respect when they choose to trust you.

      Here's just one other example - PPC costs and SERPs placements and other traffic methods are getting more expensive for IMers by the day, as Google (and others) try to wipe us all out.

      This increases the value of word of mouth recommendations again.

      As I implied, I could sit here for some time listing more reasons. My point - it's not just about short-term results, it's also about hidden consequences.

      Hi Hardy Chou (comment#50),

      They can also be done wrong and still make more money just because the marketer takes action.

      If you sell high ticket item, you should have an upsell. Infact, if you sell ANYTHING, you should have an upsell.
      Why?

      (Please don't say 'because otherwise you are leaving money on the table')
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      • Profile picture of the author Robert Puddy
        Originally Posted by ExRat View Post

        I realise you were referring to a solution for the 'duck' problem, so my answer might be off the mark, and I also realise that some will call me crazy or stupid (R. Puddy ) but my solution is just to chill - be patient.

        I like the idea of long term business relationships, even though in this market that might be swimming against the tide.
        No I almost clicked the thanks button on your first post...My only problem is with badly done login or one time offers.

        My whole modus opperandi is free front end ...monetise on the back end offers and upgrades if i get that wrong i make zero.

        Check this out Roger and see if were not on the same page where OTO's are concerned
        Login Frequency Marketing
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        • Profile picture of the author ExRat
          Hi Robert,

          I kind of skimmed the text. Yes, we're kind of on the same page. I think I'm fair in saying that you've spent time on that area and refined it a little since the early days of LFM?

          But to get my specific position on this, see my reply to Nick Barton in post#55 above.

          Also, if you consider the many debates we've had here, often about other subjects than OTOs such as email marketing, we have often found ourselves on opposite sides of the fence, in terms of my long term 'make 'em love you' attitude, and your slightly shorter term 'hit 'em hard' approach.

          You can still thank me for the earlier post if you want
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          • Profile picture of the author Robert Puddy
            Originally Posted by ExRat View Post

            Hi Robert,

            I kind of skimmed the text. Yes, we're kind of on the same page. I think I'm fair in saying that you've spent time on that area and refined it a little since the early days of LFM?

            But to get my specific position on this, see my reply to Nick Barton in post#55 above.

            Also, if you consider the many debates we've had here, often about other subjects than OTOs such as email marketing, we have often found ourselves on opposite sides of the fence, in terms of my long term 'make 'em love you' attitude, and your slightly shorter term 'hit 'em hard' approach.

            You can still thank me for the earlier post if you want
            Hmmm which is where we part company, i can hit em hard and make them love me. one doesnt rule out the other.

            The problem in kevins case is that he took a one off opinion and took it as fact/and or personally

            I know i cant please everyone so i dont try. I create products or services for free that have value on their own merit, and then add even more value for the upsell. I push hard on the upsell because im pretty confident that whatever choice they make there going to love me

            (mostly anyway no matter which route you take yours or mine there are going to be dissenters i just dont let them bother me)

            Example:

            I can give you the detailed explanation of doing something for free as a PDF

            When you login i offer you the opportunity to watch me do it via video or weekly webinar for $xxx a month

            You get everything for free if your prepared to do all the work yourself, if you want extra tuition or have someone or something do it for you then you pay

            As long as the original product is stand alone then the upsell is just that "do you want to supersize"
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    • Profile picture of the author Rod Cortez
      I strongly disagree that upsells are creating any ill will in the IM community. It's upsells that are poorly executed that are the problem, especially if it's coupled with an upsell that does not deliver.

      Personally, I don't hate upsells at all. I only dislike the ones that are poorly executed. There's also something to be said about not being able to please everyone either. I have websites in a wide variety of niches, and some of the feedback I get ranges all over the place.

      Some people don't like my graphics.

      Some people don't like my upsells.

      Some people don't like my headline.

      Some people have even taken the time to write me a long e-mail on how I'm wasting my time and resources trying to sell products on how to help men meet women when I should be investing my profits in trying to stamp out world hunger. Uhm, okay. Which I find very presumptuous because how do they know I'm not sponsoring children here in my own country to make sure they get a warm meal everyday? They dont.

      You're always going to have people that won't like your upsell(s) no matter how you present them. However, when I get e-mails like these (the ones that are normal) I like to ask the customer / prospect how I could make the experience better for them.

      I take their feedback in conjunction with my testing results to see if I need to make any necessary changes. I never make a change based on one person's feedback, especially if the testing / conversion numbers don't support it, but I do make a note of it. Sometimes a change can be made without impacting conversion numbers.

      Upsells are not the problem. It's in the execution that's the issue. And some people are going to dislike it no matter what you do, for any plethora of reasons.

      RoD
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      • Profile picture of the author John Mogusar
        Originally Posted by Rod Cortez View Post

        I strongly disagree that upsells are creating any ill will in the IM community. It's upsells that are poorly executed that are the problem, especially if it's coupled with an upsell that does not deliver.
        I completely agree with you here. Now, we need to define what "poorly executed" upsells are.

        In my opinion, if the basic plan is very difficult to execute without the upsell, that is a poorly executed upsell. The marketer is likely being misleading with his original sales copy.

        I was looking at a $300 course the other day. I wrote to the author of the course with a couple of questions. One of the answers to a question pointed me to another product of his, which was a database of websites that a vital part of this original product depended upon. The cost was $97. That immediately turned me off. Then I started looking at the other products on his website, and many seemed to be connected to this course. I could probably execute the plan without the other products, but it would be extremely difficult.

        In my opinion, the "basic" product was not an all-in-one solution, as too much work would be required to justify not spending the extra $97 here, $67 there, $117 there...
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        • Profile picture of the author Rod Cortez
          Originally Posted by Apex Content View Post

          I completely agree with you here. Now, we need to define what "poorly executed" upsells are.

          In my opinion, if the basic plan is very difficult to execute without the upsell, that is a poorly executed upsell. The marketer is likely being misleading with his original sales copy.

          I was looking at a $300 course the other day. I wrote to the author of the course with a couple of questions. One of the answers to a question pointed me to another product of his, which was a database of websites that a vital part of this original product depended upon. The cost was $97. That immediately turned me off. Then I started looking at the other products on his website, and many seemed to be connected to this course. I could probably execute the plan without the other products, but it would be extremely difficult.

          In my opinion, the "basic" product was not an all-in-one solution, as too much work would be required to justify not spending the extra $97 here, $67 there, $117 there...
          A poorly executed upsell could be defined a myriad of ways because no two sales funnel systems are identical, though they might share some similarities. One example of this is if the upsell is presented in such a way that makes it appear the customer really will not get the full value of the lead product without it. Or if the upsell is a fake one time offer (those are in abundance). I could write a novel on this topic alone.

          One of the worst upsells I ever got was when I was part of a $247 a month membership website. I asked the owner a simple question about one of their marketing tactics and his answer was to steer me to his $97 a month membership website!!! How is that for an upsell? I later figured it out on my own, though it took some doing. He could have answered it in 5 minutes because he already knew the answer.

          People in this forum who have known me over the years know that I am not a whiner, nor do I generally complain about marketing tactics unless I think there is something that is very poorly executed or simply unethical. Needless to say, I asked for an immediate refund, gave them my honest feedback, and they could have cared less.

          That was definitely a very poorly executed upsell. It was clear to me that that specific marketer only cared about one thing: making money. He delivered a lot of value, but when an answer to a simple question is to send me to another expensive membership website, why would I ever do business with them again?

          So sometimes maybe the person isn't disliking the upsell itself. It's quite possible that it just triggers past experiences with bad upsells.

          RoD
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  • Profile picture of the author jchengery
    Hello Kevin,

    I think many customers who purchase an offer that they really believe will "make a difference" see an "upgrade" upsell (or what warrior600 mentioned - elite, gold, platinum, etc.) and think that the product they so very much believed would make a difference for them was just a "carrot" to get them to purchase a more expensive package that will actually make a difference for them. If they don't purchase the OTO, then they believe that the original product they purchased won't work for them at all.

    I think many customers fail to realize that the main product will (or "should," in some cases, at least) work to make that difference, but that an upsell could help to speed up the process of making that product work and/or give additional results that can make that difference. It's NOT necessary (and should NOT be necessary) to purchase the upsell to see results from the original product, just that the upsell could make it easier and/or faster for the customer to see results from using the original product purchased.

    Let's face it - NO product of any type is going to make that difference that customers are seeking without putting SOME work in - there are no "magic bullets" out there. If more customers would look upon the main product as something that will work for them if they put the necessary time and work in, then perhaps customers won't be as taken aback or offended by an upsell, though I certainly can see and understand why they'd feel that way.

    Take care and have a great day!

    Joe Chengery III
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  • Profile picture of the author WebPen
    I had an issue this morning- I definitely feel a bit cheated.

    So I buy this product for less than $7- then I get the upsell for $27.

    Well turns out the upsell isn't nearly as valuable as I expected, right.

    So I ask the guy for a refund and he says that refunds were only offered for the upfront sale.

    Soooooooo- maybe it's my fault, maybe he's just being too shady (thats my opinion), but that is definitely NOT an upsell I was happy with.
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    • Profile picture of the author ExRat
      Hi jchengery,

      I think many customers who purchase an offer that they really believe will "make a difference" see an "upgrade" upsell (or what warrior600 mentioned - elite, gold, platinum, etc.) and think that the product they so very much believed would make a difference for them was just a "carrot" to get them to purchase a more expensive package that will actually make a difference for them. If they don't purchase the OTO, then they believe that the original product they purchased won't work for them at all.
      I agree with you.

      I also think that it's worth noting that in this kind of example, where the upsell is a 'carrot' or a bait and switch, the seller is spending the whole salesletter convincing the prospect that they need the product and that it will achieve XYZ for them.

      Then they spend some more time building them up for the price -

      Not $97, not $67, not even $37...

      But only $27!
      They spend all of that time framing the product to be worth $27 in the prospect's mind. The prospect is sold. They say to themselves, 'Yes! For $27 I reckon I will get value from that.'

      Then as soon as they commit, the dumbass seller tries to upsell them an upgraded version, thus ruining everything that they achieved in the salesletter because they foolishly sold the original product on the basis that it was exactly what the prospect needed.

      How can it be exactly what they need and then five minutes later the upgraded version becomes exactly what they need?

      They sometimes try and cover this with 'product A is exactly what you need if you are happy to achieve X, but if you are ambitious and want to achieve XXX you should get product B.'

      It doesn't work. It's snake-oily.

      What is so wrong about putting both offers on the salespage and saying the same thing?

      Product A to achieve X, or product B to achieve XXX.

      Why make yourself look deceptive for no good reason, just so that you can come on warrior forum and say, 'I'm cool. I use upsells just like Guru XYZ because Guru XYZ told me it was cool when he upsold the life out of me when I bought his product?'
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    • Profile picture of the author John Mogusar
      This reminds me of one more issue I had with the first upsell example of my above essay...

      The basic product was advertised as a "one-week trial," where I could cancel and pay nothing further. When presented with the upsell, it was my impression that the upsell REPLACED the original product.

      In other words, I thought that I would not be charged any further for the basic product, only for much more expensive membership site.

      I was surprised when a week later I was charged the full fee for the basic product. There was no money-back guarantee on the basic product, so I got stuck for the full price of that product in addition to a membership area that was useless to me.

      I believe that the overlapping and confusing trial period and money-back period was done intentionally. And judging by a couple other comments in the thread, i wasn't the only one confused by this.

      Originally Posted by AYoungMillionaire View Post

      I had an issue this morning- I definitely feel a bit cheated.

      So I buy this product for less than $7- then I get the upsell for $27.

      Well turns out the upsell isn't nearly as valuable as I expected, right.

      So I ask the guy for a refund and he says that refunds were only offered for the upfront sale.

      Soooooooo- maybe it's my fault, maybe he's just being too shady (thats my opinion), but that is definitely NOT an upsell I was happy with.
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    • Profile picture of the author Laurie Rogers
      Product review section

      Originally Posted by AYoungMillionaire View Post

      I had an issue this morning- I definitely feel a bit cheated.

      So I buy this product for less than $7- then I get the upsell for $27.

      Well turns out the upsell isn't nearly as valuable as I expected, right.

      So I ask the guy for a refund and he says that refunds were only offered for the upfront sale.

      Soooooooo- maybe it's my fault, maybe he's just being too shady (thats my opinion), but that is definitely NOT an upsell I was happy with.
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  • Profile picture of the author John Mogusar
    I see a lot of veterans posting on this thread and not so many "newbies."
    I've received so much information from the WF over the last couple of months that I'd like to give back to the community from a newbie's perspective so that maybe you guys can remember what it's like to be a newbie.

    Most of what I've read here reflects the feelings that I had when I first started purchasing Internet marketing products. And like many newbies, I bought tons of products, going on a buyer's rampage. I felt like I wanted to learn everything that was pushed into my path, because I didn't want to miss the "best"way to make money.

    When I first started, I would budget $X for building an Internet marketing business. Each time I looked at an offer, I would estimate how much I may need to execute that particular plan. One of my problems was that every time I ran across a new offer I liked, I would reset my budget and start again at zero.

    When hit with the upsells, I would get this bad feeling that I'm burning money uncontrollably (...which was often true!).

    While purchasing my first few offers, I just did not expect upsells. Inevitably, I felt that I needed the upsell in order to succeed with that plan. And usually, I think I was right. At least most of the upsells made the execution of the plan very much easier. The problem arose due to the impression that I received from the sales copy. While most of the sales copy written on the Warrior Forum is not false, I am left with the feeling that much of it is very misleading.

    I think we can all agree that most upsells (at least the "good" ones) are simply extensions of the basic product, and the reason they are not all advertised as one package is that the marketer gains many more sales by offering what appears to be a low-cost product. And correct me if I'm wrong, but I would guess that this type of upsell is almost a necessity in order to succeed with any given program.

    Those that do not buy the upsell are probably not as experienced on the whole, and (assuming they attempt to take action) newbies are much more likely to follow through to good results if they do by the upsell. The more experienced marketers will already expect an upsell and probably close to 100% of them invest in this upsell. Again, I could be wrong with such general statements.

    Most newbies are like me, wandering from one program to another, looking for something that they feel they can be successful at. I hate to say it, but sometimes I still do not expect the upsells that appear, and I'm at the point where I'm just hoping there isn't an upsell.

    There have been several occasions where I purchased the product and its upsell that I wonder how on earth anyone could possibly execute the plan without the upsell. I mean, it's true that these plans could be followed, but is the creator of this product really proud of himself to sell just the basic product as somebody knowing that there will be many dozens of wasted hours and the need for trial and error to get things right?

    What's the answer to this? I understand that the upsell is a very powerful selling technique, and if done correctly will lead to much more profit. But at the same time, this is part of the cause of major disillusionment in Internet marketing that most people run into.

    Let me present to you three real-life experiences I've had, two of them bad and one of them good.

    I mentioned that I've only been at this for two months, however I took my first dive into Internet marketing over five years ago when I joined an IM coaching program hosted by a number of "Internet gurus." The cost of the program is very reasonable -- $1. You cannot get much more reasonable than that.

    The premise of this coaching was that they would take hundreds of Internet marketing newbies through an eight week, structured course, and at the end of these eight weeks, you would have a "viable online business." This turned out to be creating an affiliate website based upon a product from Clickbank.

    I joined the program, and while the pace seemed a little bit slow to me, I was very happy with the initial weeks of the course. The gurus were very active in the forums, and the material was very good, if a little basic. But that was okay, because for someone's first efforts you don't want to overwhelm them.

    I invested my entire life during the next eight weeks into this program. I was the most active member on the forums and helped others whenever I could.

    The upcoming course material was laid out in outline form from the beginning, so we could see where we were heading, which was a good thing. Each step of the process was presented by a different guru. Around the end of the seventh week, I realized that we would have very little time to learn the last step, which was driving traffic to our sites.

    I brought this up in the forum, simply expressing my concerns. I was always very polite (and continue to be) when posting on the Internet. A funny thing suddenly happened. None of the gurus responded to this post. Previously, they had responded to every single one of my questions in a satisfactory manner, but this time I was met with silence.

    In the meantime, many other participants also expressed their desire to know the answer to this question. We were finally answered and were told that the final step would not be included in our one dollar fee; rather, we would need to pay an additional fee to continue in the program. Further information was not posted at this time.

    I was very upset with this new revelation, as I invested so much time in the program, and I was not told up front that there would be additional fees to complete the course. I posted my disapproval, while still being completely polite, and I wasn't the only one who had huge problems with this.

    I called up one of the gurus on Skype who I had a good form relationship with and expressed my concern over this issue. I reminded him that it would advertise that we would have a "viable online business" at the end of all of our efforts.

    At the time, he seemed to take my complaint very seriously and was sympathetic. He said he would discuss it with the head of the program.
    After this controversy erupted, apparently all of the gurus were having very serious discussions as to how to handle this matter, because they were all completely absent from the forum for a full two days time. In the meantime, a lot of anger was growing.

    They finally came out with a statement and unveiled their master plan. In order to continue the course, a monthly fee was required. I will tell you that the monthly fee was reasonable (I don't remember the exact price); regardless, I felt like I was being scammed.

    I posted my belief that they did not live up to their claims of their advertising. We had not been shown how to develop a "viable online business." How can you have a business with no customers? Show me one business that has been successful without customers.

    They insisted, despite not having any traffic to any of the websites yet, that they had fulfilled their promise and we all had viable online businesses. How can you possibly argue with someone who makes such outrageous claims and won't change their mind?

    Had this been advertised from the start as a coaching program with a reasonable monthly fee, there would have been no controversy. But perhaps they would've made less money, too. I'm not sure how their program turned out after this, but I wasn't willing to invest any money, because in my eyes their reputations and integrity were completely ruined.
    This left me completely frustrated and distrusting of Internet marketers in general, at least the kind selling "how to make money" products.

    Fast forward five years... Products I've purchased on the Warrior Forum have varied in quality. The first product that I purchased was bad and I requested a refund, but most of the products of lived up to my expectations.

    However, one product in particular was another example of the horrible experience with upsells.

    I purchased an e-book and the upsell was a very expensive membership site, but it sounded excellent and like I had to have it to be successful. What's more, I could pay in monthly installments and I was given two full weeks to try it out and get my money back if I didn't feel the membership site was for me.

    I was excited by the promises and began viewing some of their many videos. I had a big problem with the videos, because it seemed that they just rambled on and on and on, and if there was valuable advice contained within them, I was not at a stage where I could recognize this advice.
    What's more, it appeared to me that these videos were just random collections of some older products.

    I stopped using the membership site after about five days, but unfortunately put off my refund request for the initial payment until the 13th day (it was advertise that you had two weeks to get refund).
    I submitted my refund request and waited for a response. Time went by, and I still had received no response. I submitted a refund request to a different e-mail address, with my explanation that I had sent a request before the deadline, as well is my reasons for requesting the refund.

    I received a quick, patronizing reply this time. He thanked me for purchasing the product, and informed me that it was too late to receive a refund, ignoring my clear explanation that I had sent in a refund request before the two-week deadline. I still have both refund request e-mails that I sent in my outbox, so they would be clearly visible to anyone who would view my computer with a remote screen viewer. But a lot of good that does me.

    Fortunately, I had already witnessed many members of this forum who are genuinely interested in helping others and building their businesses upon integrity, so I wrote that money off as a loss and pressed on.

    And now, on to a "good" upsell... To tell you the truth, there hasn't been an upsell yet, but I do expect multiple upsells to occur in the future, and I will have no problem considering these upsells.

    This past Saturday, I joined Wilson Mattos' and Jason Fladlien's "6in6 Coaching." I have been spinning my wheels and spending plenty of money without results (due to not taking action...so many excuses!) these past couple months, and I realized that I needed a good, structured program to motivate me to take action.

    The price was $97 per month for six months, which is a good deal more than most products I've purchased, but also well worth the money if it's a good, structured course. I have read nothing but good things about Jason and they offered one-month money back guarantee, so I decided to give it a try.

    The first webinar session and homework have already given me enough value for my $97. I will be making my first money online this coming Sunday. That's not a maybe; I'm very confident that this will happen.
    Anyway, over the span of six months, they will be teaching us the basics of many different methods of building an online business. They focus on building a business through integrity and hard work.

    I fully expect that they will offer us upsells to each individual business method. I could be wrong, but it's my perception that this will be the way the program is structured. They will give us more than enough value presenting us with the "basics" (which I think will be full-blown products by themselves), and they stress the need for us to stick to our plan which we developed during the first session, so they aren't blindly selling us everything they can. Rather, we will each consider purchasing products based upon our individual plans.

    The way this program is structured, I am also sure that I'll be able to buy anyone's products that I choose. For example, my immediate plan for building my business will be to start off with high-quality article writing, and next month I will create my first info product.

    Much of the value of this course is in the goal setting and the planning that they force us to do. Each individual will choose their own path.
    Because I feel I'm getting so much value from these webinars, and I recognize the quality of their work, I am very likely to consider their other products (i.e. "how to create an info product") before looking elsewhere. While not technically an upsell, it has a very similar effect.

    I hope these examples can help people evolve better business models. Obviously, I will never buy another product from the first two people I mentioned, and almost undoubtedly will purchase products from Wilson and Jason in the future.

    I'd also just like to mention my thoughts on upsells unrelated to the original product. I actually appreciate these upsells more, because I do not feel that I need to purchase them. However, because I've already decided to purchase something from this person, I will certainly review the new offer if it's something I may be interested in.

    Let me know if you need any more insight from an IM newbie. I'd be happy to help. I guess the point that I was trying to make with my post is that the more honest and upfront you are with the customer, the more they will trust you, and the more likely they are to buy your future products.

    I think this is especially true for newbies, because many of us are skeptical and distrustful based upon our own experiences were stories we've heard. We are not experienced enough to know who we should be trusting and which offers are crap compared to those that are legitimate. But we are smart enough to know that if a vendor treats us fairly, it is much more likely that his products are quality offers.

    Thanks for reading this novella!
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  • Profile picture of the author RentItNow
    Upsells sort of come with the territory i guess. What is worse to me is something left out of the sales letter such as the fact you need this acct or that account. What's even worse is an offer that drastically miscalculates the time it takes to results. I remember one I bought that had a video of the guy getting results in minutes when what he didnt tell you is it took about 2 weeks work to build the site to get those results. Now that I remember, there was an OTO on that! Double whammy.
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  • Profile picture of the author BIG Mike
    Banned
    Excellent discussion and good points made for both sides of the argument.

    After reading the thread in detail, I'd agree that the poorly executed upsells are probably what irritate most consumers, turning them off upsells altogether.

    Now, if we were just talking about mainstream consumers, buying electronics or a Big Mac or whatever, I'd agree that it's a turnoff and could be harmful to a customer relationship.

    But we're not...we're talking about customers who themselves are marketers and regardless of their "Consumer View" on it, they know to expect it and they understand the purpose. If it was poorly executed, I could understand them complaining about a specific upsell, but I find it difficult to believe Kevin did a bad job with his.

    It's no different than people who subscribe to a list and complain they're getting spammed because an offer was sent.

    If you're a marketer and don't want to see upsells, then don't buy **** from other marketers. If you don't want to be marketed to via email, then stop subscribing to ****.

    Hell, I even get upsells in my home. I buy my wife a pair of Gucci sunglasses and she's all over me. Then she tells me if I buy the bracelet we looked at, I'll get something really, really special. I cave in every time
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    • Profile picture of the author ExRat
      Hi Robert,

      I can give you the detailed explanation of doing something for free as a PDF

      When you login i offer you the opportunity to watch me do it via video or weekly webinar for a month

      You get everything for free if your prepared to do all the work yourself, if you want extra tuition or have someone or something do it for you then you pay

      As long as the original product is stand alone then the upsell is just that "do you want to supersize"
      I can't think of a softer sell than that example. I'm a little surprised.

      Hi BIG Mike,

      Hell, I even get upsells in my home. I buy my wife a pair of Gucci sunglasses and she's all over me. Then she tells me if I buy the bracelet we looked at, I'll get something really, really special. I cave in every time
      Now that's a real hard sell, going for the jugular, desperate buyers only etc. These wives should be selling guru home study courses for $5k. They use scarcity like a lethal weapon.
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    • Profile picture of the author Alan Petersen
      McDonald's phased out their "super size" up-sell so maybe it's time to phase out up-sells.

      McDonald


      I agree with what has already been said here that folks get more upset over the way the up-sell is presented than the actual up-sell.

      Yet, there are a lot of folks out there who are just pissed over past bad experiences and then come your way already angry, you can't do much about them anyway.
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      • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
        Originally Posted by Alan Petersen View Post

        McDonald's phased out their "super size" up-sell so maybe it's time to phase out up-sells.
        That's a perfect example of stupidity in marketing.

        Morgan Spurlock makes "Super Size Me" so McDonald's gets embarrassed and discontinues super-size everything. Now their "large" is half the size of the old super size, but guess what? It still costs the same. So all the idiots are going "well, yay, responsible corporation." And I'm going "WTF, it's the same money for a 32 oz. Coke here that I pay for a 64 oz. at Jack in the Box."

        (And you know what else? Jack in the Box doesn't lower the syrup mix to save a few bucks a month on their fountain drinks. Not that every franchise does, but McDonald's have a RANGE of acceptable syrup mixes in their operating guidelines, and the Coke company says set it at EXACTLY THIS. Do the math.)

        Wrong damn approach.

        What McDonald's needed to do is embrace the super-size brand and use the crap out of this movie.

        "Our stuff is so awesome, it's addictive. Healthy? Who said healthy? We've got more fat, sodium, and outright calories per dollar than anybody else, and how do you like that? We're Americans. When you say 'American as apple pie,' you mean a McDonald's apple pie and you know it. We like it big, we like it fat, and we like it salty. So super-size yourself."

        Fill that commercial with big, POWERFUL people. Truckers. Construction workers. Butch lesbians. German chicks. Don't have a bunch of blubbery flabby whales on it, but have BIG people.

        You could, if you put some marketing muscle behind it, make being big - as most Americans already are - cool. And suddenly, "Super Size Me" wouldn't embarrass you anymore. It would be a badge of honour.

        But hey! Nobody asked me. So now McDonald's just pisses me off.
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      • Profile picture of the author Rod Cortez
        McDonald's phased out their "super size" up-sell so maybe it's time to phase out up-sells. .........
        Yes, they've gotten rid of the "super size" upsell, but they're still upsellling you anyway. Their employees are still trained to ask you if you want to go "medium" if you order a small drink or if you want a "large" or if you want a "apple pie" or some other dessert. The "super size" may have been gotten rid of, but the upselling certainly hasn't stopped and neither have their profits.

        Same thing with Burger King, Taco Bell, Del Taco, etc. Upsells make them a lot of money, which is why they ask you if you want a drink with your order. Soft drinks have a very high profit margin, more so than that burrito or burger you just ordered.

        RoD "I'm-Upselling-You-Some-Coffee!" Cortez
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  • Profile picture of the author derekmichael02
    Good point, Alan - the point of the upsell is to get a REAL discount on a complementing product. If that is what is being provided, the majority will have no issue.
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  • Profile picture of the author joan2009
    Because a lot of times the upsell is totally useless to the buyer who only wants the product he payed for
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  • Profile picture of the author TiffanyLambert
    Well I'll tell you my worthless $0.02 LOL!

    I hate upsells. I never do them - money lost? Whateva!

    1.) I take time to go through sales copy. I am onboard - I'm ready to download. No, wait - I have to spend more time going through page after page of upsells, declining, analyzing, figuring out if I'm screwed if I don't get it. I just wanted the product, man!

    2.) Most of the hype is written where I know when smoke is being blown up my backside, but many newbies don't - so it feels like if they don't get onboard, they're not going to succeed.

    3.) Just upsell me later in an email or something. Let me get situated with what I got all excited about - the initial product - and then if I'm impressed, I'll read your email later about something else I might like and I'll probably grab it! It can even be a day or two later.

    Just my opinion.

    tiff ~
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    • Profile picture of the author sellerscompanion
      I agree with Tiffany. When I am excited about a product, the last thing I want to think is that I have to buy something else to make it work. I think that is the way that many upsells come across. It's like "Thanks for buying my product, but if you REALLY want it to work, then you need my super duper monthly coaching program..."

      Sell me later in an email or something. Let me be blown away by the product I bought before selling me something else.
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  • Profile picture of the author JamesWedmore
    A great way to NOT piss off your customers and actually see a HIGH upsell-conversion rate is to sell the "how-to" on the front end, and then upsell to a "done-4-you" on the backend. That way, the customer is paying more to expedite the process and get to their desired outcome sooner.

    The problem then becomes having to fulfill on a done-4-you product and we all know info-marketers hate doing any actual work for people.
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  • Profile picture of the author Daret
    I absolutely agree to the point that the upsell is to get a REAL discount on a complementing product. If that is what is being provided, the majority will have no issue.

    If the main product offers what the customer wanted, and if the customer is absolutely happy with it, then upsells should not be a problem

    Also, there should be a time gap between the actual product sold and the upsell, the customer should not feel the upsell has come right after he bought the product

    just my 2 cents :-)
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    • Profile picture of the author Alfredo Carrion
      Originally Posted by Daret View Post

      I absolutely agree to the point that the upsell is to get a REAL discount on a complementing product. If that is what is being provided, the majority will have no issue.
      I think you're thinking about OTOs (Only Time Offers). An upsell doesn't need to be a discounted product, but a complementing and valuable product or service, usually with a higher price than the front-end product.

      Originally Posted by Daret View Post

      Also, there should be a time gap between the actual product sold and the upsell, the customer should not feel the upsell has come right after he bought the product
      But then you're missing the "buying state" of the customers, when they already have their credit card out of their wallets.
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      • Profile picture of the author ExRat
        Hi Alfredo,

        Originally Posted by Alfredo Carrion View Post

        I think you're thinking about OTOs (Only Time Offers). An upsell doesn't need to be a discounted product, but a complementing and valuable product or service, usually with a higher price than the front-end product.

        But then you're missing the "buying state" of the customers, when they already have their credit card out of their wallets.
        I think that people should consider thinking outside of the box more, think one level deeper.

        I see the last sentence above as an example of how people tend to think on one level. Someone, somewhere (probably selling persuasion or NLP courses) talks about capitalising on the 'buying state' of the prospect and uses it as a hook to sell their product.

        People see this hook and it becomes their focus. They don't appear to stop for a moment and ask themselves if it really is the holy grail or if they couldn't take the idea and twist it. It gets passed around and because of this, it becomes enshrined in peoples thinking as 'the only way.'

        But, has anyone stopped to consider WHY this became popular?

        Is it because this is the internet, where low levels of attention and loyalty are commonplace?

        Outside the box thinking asks, 'what would happen if I instead focussed on differentiating by being the person who found a way to snap people out of their typical browsing mindset of low attention level, skipping and skimming? What if I stopped them in their tracks?'

        Or is it because this approach was adopted by those who specialise in producing low quality products that attract high refund rates, buyer's remorse etc?

        Outside the box thinking asks, 'what if I concentrated on consistently producing the opposite type of products in order to create the opposite type of reaction?' Of course, that might mean hard work, it might require a higher level of knowledge, experience and expertise. But it would also mean that I would automatically differentiate myself from the crowd and it would mean that I could take a relaxed and patient approach to my sales process, further differentiating myself and allowing me to present offers at just the right time for my prospects and also for myself.

        Could that enable ridiculously high conversion rates? What are the benefits of that? Again, automatic differentiation when one approaches partners, JVs or affiliates. An effort free elevation to perceived expert/thought-leader status.

        Those who produce a product that is very similar to what's already out there are forced to focus on hype and other similarly damaging and self-defeating aspects in order to differentiate themselves (self-defeating because by using hype one is failing to differentiate) and this ultimately leads to their prospects feeling that they have been misled. The effort required to simply elevate their prospects into this 'buying state' requires huge amounts of emotional stimulation based on hype.

        Imagine never having to worry about upsells, OTOs, continuity, hyped copywriting and the myriad of other complexities and technically-challenging weak links in the chain? The continuity aspect is self-contained because ideally, buyers keep coming back already pre-sold.

        In summary, what I am saying is that instead of having to constantly deal with this problem -

        But then you're missing the "buying state" of the customers, when they already have their credit card out of their wallets
        ...you could be creating that state permanently whenever the prospect sees your name, your content, your offers. Then there is no need to rush. No need to over-hype. No need to overload. No need to make yourself look disingenuous or desperate, but instead you can tell your prospects that you run a long-term two-way-loyalty-based business (in a typically short-term marketplace) and prove it with your actions.

        Then perhaps you become a refuge for worn out IMers, a breath of fresh air. A welcome break from the grasping, rushing, time-limited-scarcity-obsessed pack who are fighting over the scraps from desperate, overdrawn, failing buyers.

        As an added bonus, when you sell your 'this is how I do it' study course, your material is never rehashed, it's brand-spanking new fresh ideas that are not 'do what is proven to have always worked, as sold to you by 1000 others' but instead is more like, 'do what is different, do what is one step ahead, do what is 'the birth of' as an antidote to 'the death of by saturation and familiarity.' The next generation, who saw the problem and implemented the solution.

        I'm just presenting an alternative, a possible solution, thinking aloud.

        Feel free to disagree or trash this if you can show a better way or show that it is trash, I'm just trying to fire up fresh cerebral neurons.
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        • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
          Originally Posted by ExRat View Post

          I think that people should consider thinking outside of the box more, think one level deeper.
          I call this one level higher, but I like your premise.

          They don't appear to stop for a moment and ask themselves if it really is the holy grail or if they couldn't take the idea and twist it.
          Sometimes the best thing you can do to gain your prospect's trust is to walk away and leave them alone, then come back when they've had time to think.

          Try upselling one week after purchase. Free product + half-price $67 product one week later has done very, very well for me in the past.
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  • Profile picture of the author EconomicalDomains
    Upselling particularly annoys me when trying to register a domain at GoDaddy or a lot of the other major registrars. I know what I want, and if I needed something else I would buy it.
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    • Profile picture of the author Robert Puddy
      Originally Posted by EconomicalDomains View Post

      Upselling particularly annoys me when trying to register a domain at GoDaddy or a lot of the other major registrars. I know what I want, and if I needed something else I would buy it.

      Hmm see here is the problem

      Godaddy can charge a small price for domains (in fact they make a $1 loss on all domain sales) because of the up sells

      No upsells then domains would be at least double the price, and probably more, so by objecting to upsells you would be shooting your self in the foot, and cutting your nose off to spite your face
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  • Profile picture of the author celente
    I really think it is about 2 things.

    1) warriors hate upsells that stink!

    2) warriors hate upsells to products taht are junk or offerse to other WSO offers. LOL

    that pretty much sums it up, when I have ever purchased a WSO.
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  • I think it depends on the person..

    (im new to the warrior forum - so spare me)

    I assume it's because warriors are bombarded with upsells and cross sells and they are pretty much tiered of this.

    Personally I think upsells are great.

    In my career it has never been one product, one thing that made a difference.

    It was multiple products, people, partnerships, etc.
    That have made a significant impact on my life.

    This is why I have this view.

    I'm also new to the warrior forum soo..... =D
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  • Profile picture of the author dagaul101
    I think many buyers especially new to the Internet Marketing industry, simply just get wary about being shown a new product/service
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    • Profile picture of the author Jackson62
      Nothing makes me hit the back button faster than an upsell, of any kind. Why? Because I feel I've just been lied to.

      The sales page that has enticed me to hit the buy now button promises all kinds of benefits---a program or product that is going to deliver results!

      Then...what? There's more? Why? The original sales letter didn't say anything about having to buy something else!!

      Adios! I am outta here!

      Hate the upsell with a passion. And, in keeping with the principle of the golden rule, I will never use it in my own marketing--even though it's proven to be a successful tactic. Can't do it.
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  • Profile picture of the author WillR
    Originally Posted by Kevin Riley View Post

    If you buy an electronic device, and the store clerk offers yuo the upgrade to a 5-year warranty, do you feel you're only getting half of what you've just purchased?
    I understand upsells but I also understand why so many in the IM world get annoyed by them. To use your example above I have seen plenty of upsells where you buy the 'TV' only to find out you will then need to buy a special power cord to turn it on and make it work.

    Now this is fine if the store is originally advertising it as a TV without a power cord however most of the times the sales copy is leading you (the purchaser) to believe the 'TV' is all you will need to achieve the results they are promising.

    The practice of upsells used to be where a product owner would create something additional, on top of the original product. Something that isn't required to make the original product work but could be used to make things easier or amplify your results - like the extended warranty you talk about in your example.

    However the trend I have seen lately is people create the upsell first and then remove something from that product and sell that as the original product. This is where the problems occur and people get annoyed and rightly so, I think. Let's face it, upsells are only there to make the product owner a ton more money so of course it is going to annoy a lot of buyers.

    I have no problem with McDonalds trying to offer me fries with that. But imagine I bought and paid for a Big Mac only to be told the meat would be extra?! That ain't cool and that is what has given upsells such a bad reputation.
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    • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
      Originally Posted by WillR View Post

      However the trend I have seen lately is people create the upsell first and then remove something from that product and sell that as the original product.
      Another way this happens is that people create a $97 product and then find they have trouble selling it.

      So they pull out one chapter of that product and sell it for $7. They're not so concerned about whether that was the best chapter to pull out or will get people where they want to go; it's just the "hook" to get people onto the list and pitch the $97 product.

      But imagine I bought and paid for a Big Mac only to be told the meat would be extra?!
      There was a day within my lifetime that cheese was extra. Still is, in some places. There also remain several restaurants that charge extra for lettuce and tomato. If you are accustomed to restaurants where lettuce, tomato, and cheese are included... you might be a little shocked to order a burger elsewhere and get none of them.
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      • Profile picture of the author WillR
        Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

        There also remain several restaurants that charge extra for lettuce and tomato.
        and I thought we Aussies were a little behind!
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        • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
          Originally Posted by WillR View Post

          and I thought we Aussies were a little behind!
          There's a place called "Frugal's" which has outrageously low prices, and when you order a burger that's what you get: meat on a bun, period. Likewise, you actually have to ASK for salt if you get fries. Cheese is extra, lettuce and tomato are extra, salt and condiments are tossed in the bag if you ask for them, and pretty much the entire menu can be summed up as "varying combinations of 10:1 meat patties, plain bread buns, and fried potatoes."

          It's hardly "behind." By simply not using this stuff unless you ask for it, they reduce their overhead so dramatically that you can get twice the food other places would give you for the same money. And unlike most fast food places, they take personal checks.
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  • Profile picture of the author Rich Muir
    I have used both methods and the method I am implementing at the moment is to let people know that they will get an opportunity to grab something that can be used alongside but the product that you are buying is a great product without it.

    These days I think transparency goes a dam long way.
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  • Profile picture of the author sloanjim
    Maybe just maybe they were told "this is all you will will ever need..no other invesmtent needed.etc." then low and behold as soon as you buy you are bombarded with upsells!

    Maybe....just maybe it isn't the buyers fault?
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    • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
      With a few exceptions, this tiger is starting to chase its tail.

      Just about everything here leads to the conclusion that the problem isn't in the concept of upselling. The problem people have with upselling can be traced to either poorly conceived and executed upsells or buyer fatigue with the same.

      Those of you proclaiming that you bail out on the first sniff of an upsell remind me of something Ben Franklin is reputed to have said...

      "A cat which sits on a hot stove once will never sit on one again, nor will she ever sit on a cold one..."
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