A note to WSO buyers and sellers

113 replies
This stuff has gotten way out of hand. It's time to clear up some misconceptions about comments in WSO threads.

Posts in WSOs should generally be kept to the promotion of the product by the seller, questions from serious prospects, and reviews from paying customers and those who have been given review copies as offered in the WSO itself.

Debates about the technique being taught or the tool being sold are not part of that set of options. Personal attacks on the seller are also excluded. As are ongoing quibbles about sales copy points.

If you think any of the seller's tactics are outside the rules, report them to the moderators. Don't start a campaign in the thread. There may be occasional situations in which exceptions are appropriate, but it's a really bad idea to think you've got one unless you have significant experience here.

If you have a problem with delivery or installation, use the seller's support contact system. Posting support questions in the thread itself should be a last resort, only to be used when the out-of-band option fails. Note that ALL WSO sellers must have some method of contact that does not depend on the Warrior Forum.

The majority of support issues are individual in nature, but people reading that in a thread will assume they're problems with the product or service, not mistakes or odd technical hurdles that are limited in effect.

If you do not get a satisfactory resolution to a question, or if a refund is offered and your request is refused, go to whoever you used to process the payment. Report refused refunds to the mods if the seller refuses to honor a stated refund policy. If they fail to deliver the product, let us know, and also go to whoever was used to process your payment, but only after trying to resolve the situation with the seller.

If you start blasting the seller with nasty personal attacks, don't expect a lot of help from us. Sorry, but if you're abusive, we'll let you duke it out with Paypal or whoever.

Do not, under any circumstances, go on a rampage of multiple posts, especially if they involve personal attacks, and expect to get a satisfactory result. That is not necessary, it is not helpful, and most of the people who do it end up being wrong about their issues in the first place.

"I'm going to keep hounding you until you give me my money or I destroy you here" is not a threat you even want to think about making to a seller, much less actually state. That takes all credibility away from your position, and puts you in violation of the rules.

You absolutely are allowed to make factual comments about products for which you've paid in the threads advertising them. Positive or negative, as appropriate. Stick to the products, leave the seller out, and don't indulge in crazy talk.

You don't have to be flattering if you don't think the product measures up. You just have to be civil. And keep in mind that the rules for paid advertising threads are stricter than those for general conversation. On both sides of the coin.

Sellers have some issues, too. For example, do not even think about re-reporting the same comments repeatedly. Sending 8 or 12 reports of the same thing to the mods is not going to help. It may get you a few days off for harrassment.

Do not report critical comments from paying customers as "rude" or "trying to damage my WSO" unless they include personal attacks or outright lies about the product. If someone misunderstands some aspect of the product, put on your long pants and do what real businesspeople do: Explain it to them.

Do not even think about claiming someone is bad-mouthing your product and aren't a customer if they actually did pay for the product. I can't speak for the other mods, but I consider that type of attempt to manipulate the feedback in a thread to be a bannable offense.

Not everyone will like your product. Grow up and get over it. Or better yet, use that to further target the folks who will like and benefit from it.

If you post a WSO and get caught without some external contact system that works, even if it's just an email address, the WSO will be closed until you demonstrate that you've fixed that issue.

Do not reply to a comment and then report it. We may delete the original comment (or may not), but we have no reason to delete your response. It's your thread. If you don't want comments staying in it, don't put your stamp of approval on them. And don't even think about reporting posts that quote your quote of someone's negative comment.

If you get caught using an obviously doctored "proof of income" screenshot, don't whine to us when you get called on it. We're just going to jump on you harder.

If you get caught stealing someone else's ad copy, don't yell at the person who caught you. Not their fault. They're watching out for the other members.

Use your brains, folks. That's a business venue, not a high school locker room.


Paul
#buyers #note #sellers #wso
  • Profile picture of the author Shane N
    Well said.

    This has needed to come to the surface for some time now and I'm glad it was you who brought it up.

    Another related issue is when the buyer sends the WSO seller a question via email, they will often go to the WSO thread not 5 minutes later and post something in an effort to make the WSO seller feel more obligated to respond quicker...

    IMO: Buyers should give sellers at least 24 hours to respond before posting something in the thread such as: "I sent you an email..." -- That type of post is a waste of valuable forum disk space.

    There are time zone differences to take into account, different schedules of each seller and buyer... Sometimes emails get lost in the mix or end up in the spam folder... Etc. If a seller does not respond within 24-48 hours, I believe it's OK to post something (or ask the question directly) in the thread.

    Best,
    Shane
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    • Profile picture of the author LegitIncomes
      Originally Posted by Shane Natan View Post

      Well said.

      This has needed to come to the surface for some time now and I'm glad it was you who brought it up.

      Another related issue is when the buyer sends the WSO seller a question via email, they will often go to the WSO thread not 5 minutes later and post something in an effort to make the WSO seller feel more obligated to respond quicker...

      IMO: Buyers should give sellers at least 24 hours to respond before posting something in the thread such as: "I sent you an email..." -- That type of post is a waste of valuable forum disk space.

      There are time zone differences to take into account, different schedules of each seller and buyer... Sometimes emails get lost in the mix or end up in the spam folder... Etc. If a seller does not respond within 24-48 hours, I believe it's OK to post something (or ask the question directly) in the thread.

      Best,
      Shane
      I agree. I had a buyer who couldn't use Paypal, so they had to use Google Checkout. I told them beforehand that it was going to be MANUAL delivery through Google Checkout.

      So what do they do? Submit payment, and before Google even cleared the payment on my end, they were posting multiple times in my thread with things like "where is my order", "are you a fraud", etc.... This was all, of course, without ever simply emailing me and asking. Some people are unbelievable.
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      • Profile picture of the author Shane N
        Originally Posted by LegitIncomes View Post

        I agree. I had a buyer who couldn't use Paypal, so they had to use Google Checkout. I told them beforehand that it was going to be MANUAL delivery through Google Checkout.

        So what do they do? Submit payment, and before Google even cleared the payment on my end, they were posting multiple times in my thread with things like "where is my order", "are you a fraud", etc.... This was all, of course, without ever simply emailing me and asking. Some people are unbelievable.
        @Paul,

        What's your take on that?

        Is that type of behavior acceptable?
        Would you deem it as against the rules?

        (Both what I mentioned as well as LegitIncomes in the quoted post)

        Best,
        Shane
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  • Profile picture of the author Tom B
    Banned
    Man, it sounds brutal in there.

    I never understood why sellers get their panties in a bunch when people comment on the program they purchased. To me that is a great thing because it allows you to correct any misunderstandings which can help sales.

    Maybe the buyers will stop looking for $7 magic and start visiting the main forum where they can learn something for free. Of course, there will be work involved but at least they will start making $7 instead of spending it.

    My hats off to the mods that deal with the forum. Ugly stuff going on in them hills.
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    • Profile picture of the author scrofford
      Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

      Man, it sounds brutal in there.

      I never understood why sellers get their panties in a bunch when people comment on the program they purchased. To me that is a great thing because it allows you to correct any misunderstandings which can help sales.

      Maybe the buyers will stop looking for $7 magic and start visiting the main forum where they can learn something for free. Of course, there will be work involved but at least they will start making $7 instead of spending it.

      My hats off to the mods that deal with the forum. Ugly stuff going on in them hills.
      There ya go using that four letter word again Thomas - "WORK"...geez! I have always believed the $7 magic is truly magic! Why do you ALWAYS have to burst my bubble with this?! I gotta go kick the dog now! Thanks ALOT!...............
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      • Profile picture of the author Tom B
        Banned
        Originally Posted by scrofford View Post

        There ya go using that four letter word again Thomas - "WORK"...geez! I have always believed the $7 magic is truly magic! Why do you ALWAYS have to burst my bubble with this?! I gotta go kick the dog now! Thanks ALOT!...............
        I have been trying to post less to keep the dream going. :p
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    • Profile picture of the author High Horsepower
      Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

      Man, it sounds brutal in there.

      I never understood why sellers get their panties in a bunch when people comment on the program they purchased. To me that is a great thing because it allows you to correct any misunderstandings which can help sales.

      Maybe the buyers will stop looking for $7 magic and start visiting the main forum where they can learn something for free. Of course, there will be work involved but at least they will start making $7 instead of spending it.

      My hats off to the mods that deal with the forum. Ugly stuff going on in them hills.
      No, it's not a great thing. Have you seen some of the ridiculous comments members post?

      I purchased a WSO that launched today and
      almost walked away from buying it because members had made such an issue over the wording of the sales page.

      The seller clearly said he had made
      $4,000 in SALES, yet 2 members kept beating the seller up because they said he should have posted "Net" profits, which was meaningless to this WSO.

      Nearly the first 2 pages were consumed over this bickering, unbelievable. The seller should have contacted the Mods immediately.

      Unfortunately for the seller, anyone who clicks on his WSO for the first time will see nothing but 2 pages of BS. This happened to be a very good WSO, but sales will probably suck because of the negativity surrounding the release. If I were the seller I would ask the mods to delete those post or start a whole new WSO thread.

      Richard
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      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
        Richard,

        You're talking about Mao's WSO. I saw that. They've been warned. One screw up, by either of them, and they go away for a while. I'm thinking a month is about right.

        Mao was unbelievably civil about the whole thing. I was most impressed. If there was a Moderator's Award for Responsible Citizenry, I'd give it to him for the next two weeks.

        Hmmm...


        Paul
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        • Profile picture of the author High Horsepower
          Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

          Richard,

          You're talking about Mao's WSO. I saw that. They've been warned. One screw up, by either of them, and they go away for a while. I'm thinking a month is about right.

          Mao was unbelievably civil about the whole thing. I was most impressed. If there was a Moderator's Award for Responsible Citizenry, I'd give it to him for the next two weeks.

          Hmmm...


          Paul
          Yes Paul, it was Mao's WSO. I felt terrible for the seller because I just completed my 1st WSO about 10 days ago and I know how hard I worked on mine. Thankfully, I received all positive reviews, so far!

          I would have died had mine started out the way Mao's did.

          I couldn't believe how LONG time members were beating up the Seller when he did nothing wrong.

          I have the WSO and have read half of it and it's very good. Those posters clearly overstepped any civil guidelines as far as I'm concerned.

          Glad to see you stepped in.


          Richard
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          Never give in--never, never, never, never, in nothing great or small, large or petty, never give in except to convictions of honor and good sense. Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy. Sir Winston Churchill, Speech, 1941, Harrow School

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        • Profile picture of the author Michael Mayo
          Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

          If there was a Moderator's Award for Responsible Citizenry, I'd give it to him for the next two weeks.

          Hmmm...
          Paul
          Meanwhile here is something you can use.


          Have a Great Day!
          Michael
          PS, Great OP.
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          • Profile picture of the author Kay King
            I think it would be a good idea to make that post a sticky No one should even be thinking about treating Thomas that way I dunno I was thinking about it and it would probably be a good benefit to have it up
            just a thought
            Respectful behavior should be a requirement. You can post a negative without being a dork; you can point out a problem in someone's thread without attacking the person. Common courtesy toward mods and Thomas and other members should be a given to retain membership here.

            The old style WSO section where you could find great deals on products offered to the public - is now a "produced for WSO" platform for the most part. There are some excellent offers, a lot of thin products, some tricky sellers and some truly naive buyers - then you throw in a few scammers and geez. Brief descriptions of the past are now multi-page full out sales pages and people buy things they can't afford.

            And then there's the old standard of human nature - it's someone else's fault:p

            Maybe we need a TJB (temporary jerk ban) to use as a cooling off period for some folks.

            kay
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            • Profile picture of the author Sandor Verebi
              Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

              Respectful behavior should be a requirement. You can post a negative without being a dork; you can point out a problem in someone's thread without attacking the person. Common courtesy toward mods and Thomas and other members should be a given to retain membership here.

              The old style WSO section where you could find great deals on products offered to the public - is now a "produced for WSO" platform for the most part. There are some excellent offers, a lot of thin products, some tricky sellers and some truly naive buyers - then you throw in a few scammers and geez. Brief descriptions of the past are now multi-page full out sales pages and people buy things they can't afford.

              And then there's the old standard of human nature - it's someone else's fault:p

              Maybe we need a TJB (temporary jerk ban) to use as a cooling off period for some folks.

              kay
              Kay, spot on.

              There are people who are already adults, and behave themselves accordingly.

              There are who have not grown up yet, but they moving in that direction by themselves.

              There are who need a little motivation to be adult. We need to encurage them.

              There are those who never really grow up. This thread is about them. Very timely, I think.

              I support the TJB idea.

              Sandor
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              • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
                Originally Posted by Sandor Verebi View Post

                Kay, spot on.

                There are people who are already adults, and behave themselves accordingly.

                There are who have not grown up yet, but they moving in that direction by themselves.

                There are who need a little motivation to be adult. We need to encurage them.

                There are those who never really grow up. This thread is about them. Very timely, I think.

                I support the TJB idea.

                Sandor
                Then there are those who conduct themselves as adults but have a moment of weakness. They see what they consider to be a bad offer, one that violates the WSO rules, so they speak from the heart and don't hold back.

                Unfortunately, they also include a personal attack in the WSO because they are worked up at that moment.

                It happens.

                Does the seller get a ban for breaking the rules (in a big way)?

                Does the person making the comments get banned?

                What if the seller had been banned before?

                Do they both get the same length of a ban?

                The buyer in this case is mainly trying to warn other potential buyers that they are being ripped, but adds an unnecessary personal attack.

                Anyway, my main point is that these things are not always as black and white as they seem.

                All the best,
                Michael
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                • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                  Michael,
                  my main point is that these things are not always as black and white as they seem.
                  A really, really good point for folks to keep in mind. We're dealing, for the most part, with human beings. Not the most precisely calibrated systems on the planet.

                  I've often found, when asking questions about a situation, that things are exactly the opposite of how they appear. Even then they're not always clear cut.


                  Paul
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                  • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
                    Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                    Michael,A really, really good point for folks to keep in mind. We're dealing, for the most part, with human beings. Not the most precisely calibrated systems on the planet.


                    Paul
                    Paul,

                    I freely admit that my calibration was out of whack yesterday.

                    While the situation may not have been black and white, I still see it as a very dark grey. However, part of my response was inappropriate, personal and vitriolic - in a word 'unacceptable'.

                    The other people needed to know what was going on, but the personal attack was not needed. It may have felt good at the time (and it was a gut reaction), but it sure felt more and more awful as the day went on.

                    People needed to be warned, BUT ONLY AS FAR AS the "product" itself, not how I PERSONALLY viewed the seller at that point in time.

                    Anyway, good reminder. Thanks for the thread, it allows me to clear the air a bit and can maybe nudge the WSO section in a better direction.

                    All the best,
                    Michael
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      • Profile picture of the author J Bold
        Originally Posted by High Horsepower View Post

        No, it's not a great thing. Have you seen some of the ridiculous comments members post?

        I purchased a WSO that launched today and
        almost walked away from buying it because members had made such an issue over the wording of the sales page.

        The seller clearly said he had made
        $4,000 in SALES, yet 2 members kept beating the seller up because they said he should have posted "Net" profits, which was meaningless to this WSO.

        Nearly the first 2 pages were consumed over this bickering, unbelievable. The seller should have contacted the Mods immediately.

        Unfortunately for the seller, anyone who clicks on his WSO for the first time will see nothing but 2 pages of BS. This happened to be a very good WSO, but sales will probably suck because of the negativity surrounding the release. If I were the seller I would ask the mods to delete those post or start a whole new WSO thread.

        Richard

        Ya I read that.

        Great entertainment.

        Those two guys were way, way out of line. They hadn't even bought the WSO.

        Ridiculous posts, really.

        One of them was trying to put conditions on his purchase, seemingly because he wanted an easy out of it didn't work, and the seller was quite right in not letting him put new conditions on the purchase that weren't offered. Then when the seller did that, quite fairly, he keeps saying he's not standing behind his product. Silly.
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        • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
          Will,

          I don't think anyone outside the moderators really have a clue of what Thomas means to this group. Think about what his efforts have done to impress you, and then spread them across the whole membership of this forum.

          It takes a sad, screwed up person to hassle someone like that.


          Paul
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      • Profile picture of the author Tom B
        Banned
        Originally Posted by High Horsepower View Post

        No, it's not a great thing. Have you seen some of the ridiculous comments members post?


        If you can't handle the heat get out of the wso forum. Seriously, you might not be cut out with online sales since any anonymous numskull can say anything.

        Personally, I am glad to pay the posting fee just for the feedback. There isn't many places that can get you feedback, on your product, like the wso section.


        I purchased a WSO that launched today and
        almost walked away from buying it because members had made such an issue over the wording of the sales page.



        I believe Paul addressed this a inappropriate behavior. I was not talking about inappropriate behavior. As you can see, I was discussing feedback on the product itself.

        Besides, why didn't you report the posts? Much better then complaining about it here.
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        • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
          I ventured into the Wso section a couple times and yes it is brutal in there. Its amazing how people can go off ON BOTH SIDES.

          There are a few sellers that have a god complex because they bought the WSO. Someone asks a question and blam the seller goes all over them. Now I know the rules but generally if you slap a person they slap back and thats the point where the seller could hit the report button but to me just because you bought the WSO doesn't give you the right to act so uncivil to another Warrior. and no I am not talking about the question/comment thats really a dig or something. Just one the seller doesn't like.

          Generally though I see no reason to get into it with a seller . I used to buy SEO related WSOs but just gave up because none of them were good (TO ME)

          I ask for a refund by PM and give the reason why and its done.
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        • Profile picture of the author bretski
          Good post, Paul and all. If I could add anything or stress anything it would be to try to take care of things yourself first. We're all marketers here and most are above the age of consent. Be big boys and girls. Buyers and sellers, alike. Use your marketing skills to your advantage.

          I had customer freak out on my thread over the weekend. Did I go and report the post and possibly just piss her off further? No, I wrote her and took care of the misunderstanding. She modified her post and all was right with the world.

          I could have had a knee-jerk reaction and requested that the post be removed or done something equally stupid like quoting her post and ignorantly suggest that she learn how to read (yeah, I see this in a lot of post here in the main forum which is just kinda rude). But it was all settled like adults... I got to use marketing skills in my letter to the customer and there's a pretty good chance that she will remember this and be a great customer of mine for a long time because of how I handled it.

          The mods and the help desk are busy enough taking care of spammers, trolls, insane children with pointy sticks trying to do each other harm... help them out with their workload and take care of your own business. If you're wrong, admit it and make it right. If you're right and the customer is insane, try not to follow suit.
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          • Profile picture of the author cheilman
            Thanks for this post. I'm currently working on my first WSO of information and working with a team a bigger project and this is good to know ahead of time.

            Reading some of these posts and seeing the crazyness on the forums. I know that running your own business either online or offline it's rough you have to deal with customers from intelligent customers to ones that something/someone has wronged them and you are in the path to let it out.

            I think anyone starting your online/offline business should work a retail job for about a full year (I did for years). You deal with so many interesting customers and if you work for a good company you will be trained properly on how to deal with upset customers. If you get into an assistant manager position, you will learn how to deal with those customers and the best way to help advertise along with learning what the company expects.

            Another suggestion to help sellers would be look around your community some places offer free courses to learn sometimes they have a business 101 courses to learn the basics.

            As for buyers, I know this might be hard but use common sense. Sit back and ask yourself I was selling this product would I have said the same thing or done the same thing if not, message the seller ask them to point out what they meant, instead of yelling at them or causing trouble. You'll be happier and the seller will get great feedback to help you in the future.

            Just some thoughts. I think both sides sometimes forget this is a business and not a forum playground.
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      • Profile picture of the author pmbrent
        Originally Posted by High Horsepower View Post

        No, it's not a great thing. Have you seen some of the ridiculous comments members post?

        I purchased a WSO that launched today and almost walked away from buying it because members had made such an issue over the wording of the sales page.

        The seller clearly said he had made $4,000 in SALES, yet 2 members kept beating the seller up because they said he should have posted "Net" profits, which was meaningless to this WSO.

        Nearly the first 2 pages were consumed over this bickering, unbelievable. The seller should have contacted the Mods immediately.

        Unfortunately for the seller, anyone who clicks on his WSO for the first time will see nothing but 2 pages of BS. This happened to be a very good WSO, but sales will probably suck because of the negativity surrounding the release. If I were the seller I would ask the mods to delete those post or start a whole new WSO thread.

        Richard
        Yeah that's not fair at all to the seller. If you are in business you should already know that total sales are not net sales.
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  • Profile picture of the author hashbury
    Thanks for clearing some things up on the WSO's. Im pretty new to producing WSO's and there were a few things I needed to take note of.
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  • Profile picture of the author LB
    This should be stickied in the WSO forum...
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  • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
    Hey Paul,

    I agree with much of what you said, but wanted to get some clarification on a couple of points....

    Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

    Debates about the technique being taught or the tool being sold are not part of that set of options. Personal attacks on the seller are also excluded. As are ongoing quibbles about sales copy points.
    What if the seller says that they are selling a super duper never head about or seen traffic source, when in reality, they are selling an ebook about article marketing?

    Comments from other buyers that let people know that the product either isn't as described or not as advertised, is one of the biggest benefits for potential buyers in a market place like this.

    Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

    "I'm going to keep hounding you until you give me my money or I destroy you here" is not a threat you even want to think about making to a seller, much less actually state. That takes all credibility away from your position, and puts you in violation of the rules.
    If it's to the point, where you are waiting for days, and the seller isn't honoring their money back guarantee, you don't think that is something that should be "outed" in the sales thread?

    Some of the biggest scams that have ever been pulled off here could have been avoided if buyers that were having problems were more vocal in the sales thread expressing the fact that the seller wasn't honoring their guarantee.
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  • Profile picture of the author kindsvater
    I'm sure there was something real juicy in the WSO subforum I missed that caused this thread.

    "I'm going to keep hounding you until you give me my money or I destroy you here" is not a threat you even want to think about making to a seller, much less actually state.
    I've seen that a couple times over the years. Scammers wanting an immediate refund and threatening to destroy your reputation.

    I tell them to get an attorney and ask themselves whether the dollar amount at issue is worth their defending a defamation lawsuit. Problem solved.

    Note that ALL WSO sellers must have some method of contact that does not depend on the Warrior Forum.
    Generally, I would think the product should also be sold beyond the Warrior Forum.

    The WF is great. But it's only one site with a limited audience.

    use the seller's support contact system
    That would be nice. In addition to not posting support questions on a thread, the WF PM box isn't a support system either. I have a hard enough time keeping my box within the message count limitations.

    My favorite are the messages that don't identify the product and the sender has some oddball username like type8367. It is impossible to be searching through all my products, with the different processing and delivery systems I continually test, trying to figure out who you are and what product didn't get automatically delivered by PayPal or whatever.

    As a seller, when I setup customer contact forms I have them set so that the subject line of the email I receive automatically tells me what product is involved.

    .
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  • Profile picture of the author Itachi
    Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post


    If you get caught using an obviously doctored "proof of income" screenshot, don't whine to us when you get called on it. We're just going to jump on you harder.

    Paul
    Hah that one is more than welcome, im sure no one here wants see "cb-guru-salepages" with fake screenshots all over.

    Also i was thinking maybe some kind of WSOplus support integrated feature could be nice so the peoples that are hasty or/and lazy to go to their email to contact support will be less likely to spam.

    But im sure if we can avoid spam at all it would be good too, just trying to help .
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Shane,

      It's not useful to make rules on such things, but I'd tend to take people way less seriously if they haven't the patience to wait at least a few hours. Do they not think people sleep?

      I saw the one LegitIncomes is talking about, and wondered if we shouldn't just nuke people who post things like "scam" within 10 minutes of posting an obviously manually-handled receipt.

      Perhaps a 3-day ban for being a jerk would be appropriate.

      Jeremy,
      Comments from other buyers that let people know that the product either isn't as described or not as advertised, is one of the biggest benefits for potential buyers in a market place like this.
      From buyers? Absolutely. I left just such a comment up today, and warned the seller not to report simple factual statements as problems. Either correct them or let them be, but don't try to weasel your way out of legitimate critique.
      Some of the biggest scams that have ever been pulled off here could have been avoided if buyers that were having problems were more vocal in the sales thread expressing the fact that the seller wasn't honoring their guarantee.
      Yup. You seem to be hitting on my day's experience. I told a guy today who reported someone for asking for a refund essentially, "You offered it. Keep your word."

      He had the vague "If you try my methods and don't get results" guarantee. Nothing specific, which basically makes the statement worthless. He'll either honor his guarantee or find himself looking in from the other side of the fence.

      We don't make people offer guarantees, and we don't make them refund if they don't. Hell, we can't anyway. But if they don't stick to the terms they set, we can remove them from this marketplace.

      The only reason I even got into that one was that I'd read both the guarantee and the guy's totally dismissive response.

      Brian,
      I'm sure there was something real juicy in the WSO subforum I missed that caused this thread.
      Nope. I've been meaning to post this for ages. Just a bunch of dumbass stuff today that pushed me over the edge. I was ready to ban about 7 people, buyers and sellers both, for being such drama queens. Exactly none of it needed to be anything more than a simple support issue.
      I have a hard enough time keeping my box within the message count limitations.
      I'm at the 90% full warning, and I have a rather more liberal limit than even War Room members. As in, more than 10 times the space.

      If I get one more person telling me they're going to commit suicide if they don't get a refund, I'll be tempted to offer to mail them the knife.

      I'm not joking about those comments, although I'd never make the offer. I got two of those in the past 4 days. And they were serious. Scammed one too many times for way too much money. And not all of it had anything to do with this forum. None of it was money they should have spent.

      You wouldn't believe some of the stuff we hear.

      Ken,
      Not speaking for Paul, but I suspect it's more about the cumulative effect of a whole bunch of really irritating things in there over the last few months or so, rather than any one really juicy incident...
      Amen.

      You could be speaking for me. I wouldn't correct you on that.


      Paul
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      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
        I've got a bunch of thoughts I've been meaning to bring up, so excuse me if they come out in fits and spurts.

        If you value the notion of developing a good reputation here, do not be rude through the help desk. Thomas is one of the nicest people you'd ever want to meet online, and he'll bend over backward to help you if you are decent about things. There is no excuse for treating him in any but respectful ways.

        I banned a long-term member this week for being nasty to him. That ban is permanent, and I'll enforce it through any and all fake accounts the guy might make in the future if I can identify him. That gentleman will never be able to do business here under his own or his company's name again.

        Yeah, he could get a new IP and sneak back in under another name. But he'll have to keep doing that. Is throwing a tantrum at the most helpful person in the forum really worth that?

        Be rude through the help desk and let me find out about it and you are persona non grata here. Permanently. No discussion, no appeal.


        Paul
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        • Profile picture of the author WD Mino
          Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

          I've got a bunch of thoughts I've been meaning to bring up, so excuse me if they come out in fits and spurts.

          If you value the notion of developing a good reputation here, do not be rude through the help desk. Thomas is one of the nicest people you'd ever want to meet online, and he'll bend over backward to help you if you are decent about things. There is no excuse for treating him in any but respectful ways.

          I banned a long-term member this week for being nasty to him. That ban is permanent, and I'll enforce it through any and all fake accounts the guy might make in the future if I can identify him. That gentleman will never be able to do business here under his own or his company's name again.

          Yeah, he could get a new IP and sneak back in under another name. But he'll have to keep doing that. Is throwing a tantrum at the most helpful person in the forum really worth that?

          Be rude through the help desk and let me find out about it and you are persona non grata here. Permanently. No discussion, no appeal.


          Paul
          What? Someone is picking on Thomas? Man that just ticks me right off Thomas does a heck of a lot around here not to mention all the emails and tickets he deals with on a daily basis I love Thomas -as a friend that is he has been a real help and encouragement to me on here LEAVE THOMAS ALONE There are a huge number of us that feel that way.
          You know Paul it really sucks when people can't be even the tiniest bit considerate Thomas is a major part of this forum thanks for speaking out about it.
          -WD
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          • Profile picture of the author Nate Simms
            Originally Posted by WD Mino View Post

            What? Someone is picking on Thomas? Man that just ticks me right off Thomas does a heck of a lot around here not to mention all the emails and tickets he deals with on a daily basis I love Thomas -as a friend that is he has been a real help and encouragement to me on here LEAVE THOMAS ALONE There are a huge number of us that feel that way.
            You know Paul it really sucks when people can't be even the tiniest bit considerate Thomas is a major part of this forum thanks for speaking out about it.
            -WD

            Agreed.

            I've had a couple small issues that I had to bring to the help desk not too long ago and Thomas was, by far, the best 'customer support' person I've ever had the pleasure of dealing with.
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          • Profile picture of the author The 13th Warrior
            Originally Posted by WD Mino View Post


            ... Thomas does a heck of a lot around here not to mention all the emails and tickets he deals with on a daily basis ...,

            Dude does all that??

            This cyber community is like an internet district , city, province or state.

            Much respect to the T man , thats a lot of work, man.

            But quality work.

            Standards.

            The 13th Warrior
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            • Profile picture of the author The 13th Warrior
              These "Senior Warrior" threads are both extremely informative and simultaneously amusing.

              The amusing part is, when these folks gather in one place, its like "They who Watch from Above" or "The Ancient Wise One's" who appear out of the shadows.

              Like the whispering voice of your conscious or something, telling you to do the right thing .

              I get that feeling that I had when I was a 5 year old kid with a pop in my hand sitting, waiting for my turn in the Barber Shop (remember those), while these old dudes talk of tales, wisdom and experience that leave you speechless.

              Stuff your mamma would'nt tell you...., "....you here that, boy , you better be listen up, son..,"

              Especially when John Coletrane is playing in the background, thickning up the atmosphere along with that Bay Rum smell in the air.

              Hell, some of these Senior Warriors I never heard of, I thought they went off to Valhalla, Arlingtion National, Mount Olympus or something.

              The 13th Warrior
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        • Profile picture of the author John Lenaghan
          Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

          Be rude through the help desk and let me find out about it and you are persona non grata here. Permanently. No discussion, no appeal.
          Having spent many years in customer service, I can't tell you how great this attitude is. Knowing your boss (figuratively or literally) has your back makes a HUGE difference to how stressful it is when you're faced with "that guy" who thinks screaming at you is the fastest way to get what he wants.

          Nice job, Paul (et al.)

          John
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        • Profile picture of the author The 13th Warrior
          Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post


          I banned a long-term member this week for being nasty to him. That ban is permanent, and I'll enforce it through any and all fake accounts the guy might make in the future if I can identify him. That gentleman will never be able to do business here under his own or his company's name again.

          Yeah, he could get a new IP and sneak back in under another name. But he'll have to keep doing that.


          Permanent ban on long time member, wow.

          Dude must have been 217% over-the-top unreasonable, with minus 58% at even attempting to come to any reasonable resolution.

          Must have said something nasty about someone's mamma or said something that could not be taken back..., said something that revealed a chilling, festering beast in the core soul of a person that can never, ever be ignored or given a chance again.

          Or maybe he picked up a nasty drug habit.

          The 13th Warrior
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      • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

        If I get one more person telling me they're going to commit suicide if they don't get a refund, I'll be tempted to offer to mail them the knife.

        I'm not joking about those comments, although I'd never make the offer. I got two of those in the past 4 days. And they were serious.
        WOW. Nothing else to say. thats just unbelievable to me that people would be that on the edge in regard to a purchase they never had to make.
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        • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
          Mike,
          WOW. Nothing else to say. thats just unbelievable to me that people would be that on the edge in regard to a purchase they never had to make.
          They spent way more than they should have, and it created other problems for them. In one case, really big ones involving the wife and the bills and...

          Which brings up another issue: Folks, don't oversell your time. People make plans and invest resources based on your promises of delivery. Loading up your backlog might sound good, but it will bite you at some point. If you're going to be delayed, communicate with your customers. Going silent is the fastest way to look like a scammer, and it's not necessary.

          Also, be careful about letting employees post or otherwise communicate through your account. We have no way of knowing if you really did just goof because an employee didn't handle things properly or if that's just a BS excuse. So, the assumption is that it all comes from one person.

          Don't let people access your account who you aren't willing to bet the account on. Because you are.


          Paul
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          • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
            Paul, as usual, great post. It said what it had to say and did it very well.

            Essentially, at least for me, it comes down to people acting like adults instead
            of two year olds.

            For some, that's apparently a very hard thing to do.
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      • Profile picture of the author Josh Anderson
        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

        I saw the one LegitIncomes is talking about, and wondered if we shouldn't just nuke people who post things like "scam" within 10 minutes of posting an obviously manually-handled receipt.

        Perhaps a 3-day ban for being a jerk would be appropriate.
        Resolving issues like that are easy on the seller side... though I agree that a ban of the harasser is appropriate.

        Here is some advice to any seller dealing with that type of issue:

        1. Immediately refund the transaction.

        2. Ban the individual from making additional purchases on your system using IP ban or whatever else you have at your disposal (I call this the "freak nuke button.")

        3. Respond to there accusations in the wso thread by stating:

        "I have refunded your payment and banned you from making future purchases because of your inappropriate behavior.

        As I explained previously Google checkout orders are manually fulfilled."

        I can recall two or three times that I have stated something similar where the individuals have apologized, begged to be unbanned, purchased again after being unbanned, and successfully refrained from being idiots.

        The "freak nuke button" is a useful feature for any online business.
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  • Profile picture of the author RobCopywriter
    While criticism of a bad product is justified, criticism of it's creator should not go on in a thread that he/she paid for.

    Also, posting in a thread stating "sent you an email hours ago, awaiting response" makes the seller look unprofessional to other users for no good reason.
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  • Profile picture of the author WD Mino
    Paul,
    Re:Thomas, I think it would be a good idea to make that post a sticky No one should even be thinking about treating Thomas that way I dunno I was thinking about it and it would probably be a good benefit to have it up
    just a thought
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  • Profile picture of the author Brenden Clerget
    Yeah Paul great post... I agree with making it a sticky. I've ran across buyers that have ridiculous things to say, ask or complain about without buying and with no good reason. Same with people sending the "refund or ill go publicz" PMs and in the thread, after I had been sleeping for 6 hours after being up for 48 straight.

    Good points and glad to see the mods putting in real effort to make a difference. Keep it up!
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
    There are cases where I think it's best to mention it right away in the thread so others don't get taken. (No matter how cheap the WSO may be)

    However, I will not add the personal attacks.

    All the best,
    Michael
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    "Ich bin en fuego!"
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  • Profile picture of the author JCorp
    Great info here that every WSO buyer and seller NEEDS to read!

    Every Seller should put this in their sales thread (at the bottom or on another post)
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  • Profile picture of the author mattlaclear
    Even with having a support ticket in place with 5 staff members manning it I still get flamers coming after me on the threads from time to time. Most of them totally bypass the support system we have in place and assume that we are scammers because we have no support system in place.

    In a forum environment if you have one person like that nesting on a thread the whole thing can become toxic in a matter of days if not hours.

    Sometimes the flamers do use our support system only to make unreasonable demands on them and then threaten to "take it to the threads" if we do not comply.

    Understand that if the mods were not here every single wso thread on this forum would soon go toxic. Which would absolutely decimate this forum as we now know it.

    But I imagine the job policing everything must be taxing as hell. So maybe sticky this up and make it mandatory reading for anyone wanting to post a new wso. Make them literally come to this thread and put their thanks on it.

    As for my thread I sometimes get caught up in squabbles that ultimately end up being reported to the mods. I feel very passionate about my product and when I see it being attacked my eyes roll back in my head and I'm ready to roll.

    But like Paul was saying. When there is an open line of communication between the seller and the buyer that is not part of the WF network that is going to accomplish a few things:

    #1 Alleviate some of the workload of the mods moderation the wso section
    #2 Force sellers to become better communicators with their customers
    #3 Generate more opportunities for upsells for the sellers.

    So a gigantic no brainer for sure. I personally prefer the HESK ticket system. Makes managing large numbers of clients quite simple.
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    • Profile picture of the author tpw
      Originally Posted by mattlaclear View Post

      As for my thread I sometimes get caught up in squabbles that ultimately end up being reported to the mods. I feel very passionate about my product and when I see it being attacked my eyes roll back in my head and I'm ready to roll.

      Just saying... But not all criticisms and questions are attacks.
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      Publish Coloring Books for Profit (WSOTD 7-30-2015)
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  • Profile picture of the author mattlaclear
    I also want to add that it is vitally important for sellers and buyers to read one another's communications to each other very carefully. I often scan over posts and fail to read them in their entirety. This sort of speed reading has caused a couple squabbles that could easily have been avoided if I had read their perspective posts properly.
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    • Profile picture of the author Rob Howard
      Originally Posted by mattlaclear View Post

      I also want to add that it is vitally important for sellers and buyers to read one another's communications to each other very carefully. I often scan over posts and fail to read them in their entirety. This sort of speed reading has caused a couple squabbles that could easily have been avoided if I had read their perspective posts properly.
      This. This. This. This. THIS.

      I can't believe how many people just skip over stuff. Blatant stuff, like right next to the buy button blatant. And then demand refunds or bitch/moan - and then I point out what they missed. That tends to shut them up.

      I do it too, though. It's easy to do. Patience is a virtue a lot of people need to get, myself included.

      Rob
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      • Profile picture of the author mattlaclear
        Originally Posted by ccmusicman View Post

        This. This. This. This. THIS.

        I can't believe how many people just skip over stuff. Blatant stuff, like right next to the buy button blatant. And then demand refunds or bitch/moan - and then I point out what they missed. That tends to shut them up.

        I do it too, though. It's easy to do. Patience is a virtue a lot of people need to get, myself included.

        Rob
        Some people do not want to help you to help them. They may pay you the money you request with no problem. But never really allow themselves to take part in the process. Then they bitch and moan and blame others. Pretty typical human behavior if you ask me.

        What I don't get is simple.

        If a wso vendor has an established and good standing on the forum why would that vendor ever do anything to willingly jeopardize that standing?

        But I get accused by flamers all the time of being a liar, thief, scam artist, spammer, junk peddler, rude, crude, and a whole shovel full of other niceties.

        When I get a negative post on my thread I first want to make sure that person is communicating with my staff. That way I know that we can rectify any issue if there is one. I know my staff will totally make them happy if given the chance.

        But some folks just plain want to fight. I know this because they often refuse to give me their campaign info so I can check on their campaigns. When asked for them they simply make threats and banter even more.

        It's this latter type that I report to the mods.
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        • Profile picture of the author ExRat
          Hi Paul,

          It might be worth mentioning this rule here -

          3. A Warrior Special Offer Means The Price You Give Must Be Better Than The Price The Public At Large Can Get. (This is not a "buy my product" forum, it is a "Special Offer" forum)
          Hi Matt,

          If a wso vendor has an established and good standing on the forum why would that vendor ever do anything to willingly jeopardize that standing?
          Who knows why they do it, but they do.
          Signature


          Roger Davis

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          • Profile picture of the author Ken Strong
            Originally Posted by ExRat View Post

            Hi Paul,

            It might be worth mentioning this rule here -
            If we're talking about WSO rules that frequently get broken or ignored, might be worth mentioning all of them...
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          • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
            Originally Posted by ExRat View Post

            Hi Paul,

            It might be worth mentioning this rule here -
            3. A Warrior Special Offer Means The Price You Give Must Be Better Than The Price The Public At Large Can Get. (This is not a "buy my product" forum, it is a "Special Offer" forum)
            The way I've always seen it is that it's a better deal if it's ONLY available to Warriors. In other words, exclusivity counts for something, doesn't it?

            I look at the Warrior Forum as a community, and I'm happy to share with this community, but there are things that I don't want to share with the public at large.

            That being said, I know what I would do if this rule was interpreted differently.



            All the best,
            Michael
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            "Ich bin en fuego!"
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            • Profile picture of the author Kay King
              3. A Warrior Special Offer Means The Price You Give Must Be Better Than The Price The Public At Large Can Get. (This is not a "buy my product" forum, it is a "Special Offer" forum)
              I've been confused about this same rule recently, too. What happens may be due to the affiliate program that is fairly new.

              Affiliates advertise a WSO product on their own site or blog and the link goes to the sales page of the seller - not to the WSO section. It's the same sales page linked to in the WSO. So basically the price is the same on the forum or off the forum. With the affiliate program - maybe that's how it's designed to work. Don't know.

              kay
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              Saving one dog will not save the world....but will forever change the world for one dog.
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            • Profile picture of the author Josh Anderson
              Originally Posted by Michael Oksa View Post

              The way I've always seen it is that it's a better deal if it's ONLY available to Warriors. In other words, exclusivity counts for something, doesn't it?
              The warriors only rule has morphed over the years... it used to be exclusive to warrior members... then it was ok to make same offer to your list...

              Now that the Warrior Special Offer Forum is well on its way to becomming one of the leading affiliate networks with the help of warriors running WSO offers promoted by affiliates WSO offers are widely promoted outside the WF.

              This essentially defines a WSO as an offer that is exclusively originated from the WSO forum.

              As far as I am concerned I think it is all awesome. whatever Allen wants to happen and however the forum evolves to be more profitable for Allen and for those growing thier businesses through the WSO forum affiliate network is really cool.

              This forum runs amazingly well with its spoken and unspoken rules and the evolution has been incredible to watch.
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              • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                Michael, et al...

                The moderators have the option to bump threads in the discussion areas without adding unnecessary extra posts. And, as was pointed out, it's more likely to be read if it's not stickied. We don't need any more of those anyway.

                I want to make sure people get the chance to see it. I'll probably sum it up as a blog post sometime soon, and let folks point others to it when they get out of order.


                Paul
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                • Profile picture of the author Michael Mayo
                  Got it Thanks, Bump!
                  Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                  Michael, et al...

                  The moderators have the option to bump threads in the discussion areas without adding unnecessary extra posts. And, as was pointed out, it's more likely to be read if it's not stickied. We don't need any more of those anyway.

                  I want to make sure people get the chance to see it. I'll probably sum it up as a blog post sometime soon, and let folks point others to it when they get out of order.


                  Paul
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            • Profile picture of the author ExRat
              Hi Michael,

              Originally Posted by Michael Oksa View Post

              The way I've always seen it is that it's a better deal if it's ONLY available to Warriors. In other words, exclusivity counts for something, doesn't it?

              I look at the Warrior Forum as a community, and I'm happy to share with this community, but there are things that I don't want to share with the public at large.

              That being said, I know what I would do if this rule was interpreted differently.



              All the best,
              Michael
              Hi Josh,

              The warriors only rule has morphed over the years... it used to be exclusive to warrior members... then it was ok to make same offer to your list...

              Now that the Warrior Special Offer Forum is well on its way to becomming one of the leading affiliate networks with the help of warriors running WSO offers promoted by affiliates WSO offers are widely promoted outside the WF.

              This essentially defines a WSO as an offer that is exclusively originated from the WSO forum.

              As far as I am concerned I think it is all awesome. whatever Allen wants to happen and however the forum evolves to be more profitable for Allen and for those growing thier businesses through the WSO forum affiliate network is really cool.
              Thanks for the feedback, I can see where you're both coming from and I agree with you.
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              Roger Davis

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              • Profile picture of the author Sandor Verebi
                Originally Posted by Michael Oksa View Post

                ...
                Anyway, my main point is that these things are not always as black and white as they seem...
                Michael, you're right.

                Just think of a marriage, where two people are involved in relationship (at best). The situation - for various reasons - is often unclear there as well.

                So even here, where the number of members is hundreds of thousands, and number of participants in a WSO offer can be up to several hundreds.

                And... as you know, people aren't alike.

                Despite, is expected to have contact with each other in a civilized manner, as Kay pointed it out rightly. Alluded to this when I said that not everyone is able to behave in an adult manner.

                Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                ...We're dealing, for the most part, with human beings. Not the most precisely calibrated systems on the planet.

                I've often found, when asking questions about a situation, that things are exactly the opposite of how they appear. Even then they're not always clear cut.
                Paul, to deal with people is a noble task, but isn't easy. Consequently, beeing a moderator is not rewarding always. But, someone must be carried out that assignment to avoid chaos.

                This is a very complex task. You often must make decisions that are only in dispute by those, who has no ability of consideration for others.

                Take care,

                Sandor
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  • Profile picture of the author Caper224
    This is why every time I even think about posting a WSO I'm like "nevermind." I applaud WSO sellers, because I simply don't have the patience for it. I spend a month to 2 months putting together a huge course, under sell it for like 10 bucks and get crap chucked at me because my screenshot cut off the corner of my statement or my payment button wasn't working properly or random dumbo didn't know he had to pay for hosting and my sales copy didn't cover that. I don't know how sellers do it, I imagine they have to babysit their thread for like 12 hours straight after launch. Too much for me but I salute you, lol.
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael Mayo
    Paul, Did you or Allen flip a switch on this thread?

    The thread always appears to have a new post. What I'm trying to say
    is that is bolded on the main forum even after I view it.

    The last five times I've checked the thread I thought Michael Oksa posted
    something new to the thread and it's always the same reply as before.

    I've tried rebooting and I still see the same thing???

    Just curious,
    Have a Great Day!
    Michael
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    • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
      Originally Posted by Michael Mayo View Post

      Paul, Did you or Allen flip a switch on this thread?

      The thread always appears to have a new post. What I'm trying to say
      is that is bolded on the main forum even after I view it.

      The last five times I've checked the thread I thought Michael Oksa posted
      something new to the thread and it's always the same reply as before.

      I've tried rebooting and I still see the same thing???

      Just curious,
      Have a Great Day!
      Michael
      It's not just you, Michael.

      I kept checking for additional comments, and it kept saying I was the last one...BUT I hdn't posted for at least 4 hours.

      This is only a theory, but it would make a LOT of sense.

      What's one of the surest ways to make sure this information doesn't get read?

      ..

      Make it a sticky!!!

      BUT...IF they keep it as one of the top posts in the main part of the forum, a lot more people will read it. I'm thinking of it as some sort of semi-automatic bumping mechanism.

      Just one theory. Whatever is really going on sure is/was weird.

      All the best,
      Michael
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      • Profile picture of the author Michael Mayo
        Thanks Michael,
        I've wasted soooo much time trying to figure out what was wrong with my system I
        checked on another computer and got the same thing...lol

        I finally figured someone was trying something new...

        Have a Great Day!
        Michael
        PS, Kay, Is it time for a change?

        Originally Posted by Michael Oksa View Post

        It's not just you, Michael.

        I kept checking for additional comments, and it kept saying I was the last one...BUT I hdn't posted for at least 4 hours.

        This is only a theory, but it would make a LOT of sense.

        What's one of the surest ways to make sure this information doesn't get read?

        ..

        Make it a sticky!!!

        BUT...IF they keep it as one of the top posts in the main part of the forum, a lot more people will read. I'm thinking of it as some sort of semi-automatic bumping mechanism.

        Just one theory. Whatever is really going on sure is/was weird.

        All the best,
        Michael
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    • Profile picture of the author LegitIncomes
      Originally Posted by Michael Mayo View Post

      Paul, Did you or Allen flip a switch on this thread?

      The thread always appears to have a new post. What I'm trying to say
      is that is bolded on the main forum even after I view it.

      The last five times I've checked the thread I thought Michael Oksa posted
      something new to the thread and it's always the same reply as before.


      I've tried rebooting and I still see the same thing???

      Just curious,
      Have a Great Day!
      Michael
      So I wasn't just seeing things! I thought I was going crazy for a little while, lol.
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael Mayo
    Ken,
    Thanks for the Flash Back!...lol

    Strangely enough I enjoyed it. The sound takes me back to a carefree
    time when their actually was an Easy Button! (My Parents)

    Also, Thanks for not posting something from the Twilight Zone!

    Have a Great Day!
    Michael
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  • Profile picture of the author ryanzona
    I think Paul's post does clear up a lot of issues. Its actually hard to know sometimes whether it's ok to make a negative comment about a wso you bought.
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    • Profile picture of the author Alan Petersen
      Just a reminder it's up to us members to help out by "flagging" these problem children to the super mods by hitting the report button.

      I just flagged a thread in a WSO, where the dude wrote that he's purposely posting publicly a support question to get them to move on it faster and that he will delete it once he gets his way. And of course from his post, it's user error not the WSO seller's fault.
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      • Profile picture of the author Jill Carpenter
        Originally Posted by ryanzona View Post

        I think Paul's post does clear up a lot of issues. Its actually hard to know sometimes whether it's ok to make a negative comment about a wso you bought.
        I like to think more along the terms of "informative" or "revealing" but not necessarily negative.

        Also, I think a lot of people forget to go back to the sales letter and understand what is being said vs what is being actually promised.

        If the person promises xyz, then yes, you should get xyz.

        If the person promises 123 and you are looking for xyz which was not part of the deal, then it may be ok to let the seller know that is a future desire, but don't get down on them for it not being there.
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  • Profile picture of the author ryanjm
    I am glad to see this. I have posted a legit negative review for a WSO that I bought before, and it was promptly removed without notice. I was 10000% careful to make it as fair as possible, didn't accuse anyone of scamming, etc... I just simply said exactly what I thought about the product in a respectful, yet extremely damaging way. Result? Deletion.

    This has put a sour taste in my mouth now whenever I see a thread full of positive reviews for a product. I wonder, "Yeah, but how many negative ones were there that got deleted?" Based on my experiences and those of others discussed in other forums, I came to the conclusion that the WSO section existed to profit the forum and the WSO creators at the expense of the users who were duped by the lack of any negative feedback for many WSOs. There's a clear profit motivation to make the WSOs all sunshine and roses because everyone profits, and any dissenters are quickly dealt with, with no trace of their post.

    Time will tell if the evil profit monster doesn't creep back in. For myself, I'll happily start a WSO, but I won't buy one anymore.
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    • Profile picture of the author LegitIncomes
      Originally Posted by ryanjm View Post

      I am glad to see this. I have posted a legit negative review for a WSO that I bought before, and it was promptly removed without notice. I was 10000% careful to make it as fair as possible, didn't accuse anyone of scamming, etc... I just simply said exactly what I thought about the product in a respectful, yet extremely damaging way. Result? Deletion.

      This has put a sour taste in my mouth now whenever I see a thread full of positive reviews for a product. I wonder, "Yeah, but how many negative ones were there that got deleted?" Based on my experiences and those of others discussed in other forums, I came to the conclusion that the WSO section existed to profit the forum and the WSO creators at the expense of the users who were duped by the lack of any negative feedback for many WSOs. There's a clear profit motivation to make the WSOs all sunshine and roses because everyone profits, and any dissenters are quickly dealt with, with no trace of their post.

      Time will tell if the evil profit monster doesn't creep back in. For myself, I'll happily start a WSO, but I won't buy one anymore.

      Obviously if a moderator removed your comment, they didn't agree with you. End of story.
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  • Profile picture of the author ryanjm
    ^Obviously you're correct. Hence the rest of my post where I mention that I think the main reason it was removed is because there is a huge incentive to appease the WSO creators. If someone's running 5 WSO's and paying you hundreds a month, and a random forum user doesn't think their product is good, what incentive is there to keep a negative review? None. Other than maintaining some semblance of legitimacy, which is in short supply judging by opinions on other IM forums.
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    • Profile picture of the author Alan Petersen
      Originally Posted by ryanjm View Post

      ^Obviously you're correct. Hence the rest of my post where I mention that I think the main reason it was removed is because there is a huge incentive to appease the WSO creators. If someone's running 5 WSO's and paying you hundreds a month, and a random forum user doesn't think their product is good, what incentive is there to keep a negative review? None. Other than maintaining some semblance of legitimacy, which is in short supply judging by opinions on other IM forums.
      You don't know this forum very well if you really believe that.
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      If someone's running 5 WSO's and paying you hundreds a month, and a random forum user doesn't think their product is good, what incentive is there to keep a negative review? None.
      Really? You haven't looked around that section as much as some, then. We leave negative reviews as long as they fit the criteria described above. LOTS of them.

      There is definitely a tendency for some people to avoid leaving bad reviews, but that has nothing to do with the moderators. It's a desire to not mess with someone else's deal, which is understandable, if misplaced.

      Honestly critical reviews help the customers. That alone is enough. However, they also help sell more ads in the long run, as they tend toward helping people buy the better products and avoid the less serious ones. That encourages more trust, as opposed to deleting negatives unduly, which reduces it.

      If people don't buy, merchants don't advertise.

      This place hasn't gotten to this size or lasted this long by running on short term thinking.


      Paul
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    • Profile picture of the author tpw
      Originally Posted by ryanjm View Post

      ^Obviously you're correct. Hence the rest of my post where I mention that I think the main reason it was removed is because there is a huge incentive to appease the WSO creators.

      This is an incorrect assessment as far as I am concerned.

      Either a mod saw it and deleted it, or a forum member reported it and the mods agreed that it was out-of-line.

      I have put plenty of negative reviews on the WSO forum that can still be seen today in the WSO forum.

      I have seen a few negative comments on my WSO's too, although not that many. I have not asked to have them removed.
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    • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
      Originally Posted by ryanjm View Post

      If someone's running 5 WSO's and paying you hundreds a month, and a random forum user doesn't think their product is good, what incentive is there to keep a negative review?
      The 1,500 other WSOs running every month, all of which are running because there are so many people in the WSO forum, all of whom are there because they trust those products not to suck?

      Just guessing.
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      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
        Bill,
        I'd be interested in a clarification on this Paul.

        If we don't need to offer the product off-site, if we offer it in the WSO forum, that could shorten the production curve.
        This is an area that's caused some confusion as things evolve. We had the choice of allowing the confusion or writing ever more and stricter rules. The former seemed preferable.

        As it stands now, I think the only condition you'd have to watch for with your idea is that the product should not be the same or lower price on a public offer that's made later.


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        • Profile picture of the author tpw
          Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

          As it stands now, I think the only condition you'd have to watch for with your idea is that the product should not be the same or lower price on a public offer that's made later.


          Paul

          Thanks Paul for the clarification.

          I would have used the Thanks button, but you know why I didn't. :p
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      • Profile picture of the author ryanjm
        Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

        The 1,500 other WSOs running every month, all of which are running because there are so many people in the WSO forum, all of whom are there because they trust those products not to suck?

        Just guessing.
        FYP: All of whom are there because they want to make money.

        To be clear: I've never bought a product that I felt was a scam, complete waste, etc... What you have is what Paul mentioned: A newb buys something that's really not as great as he thinks it is, but gives a glowing review because he's never heard that you can make a website and get a commission on selling things. In the mean time, the WSO is promoted as showing you everything you need to do to make money. The catch? There's no details. But wait! If you buy this upsell and that upsell I show you how to do it!

        An experienced marketer would call them on that. A newb wouldn't.

        This is where the whitewash incentive comes into play, and I think my example in an earlier post is pretty darn good at showing how the forum has a huge incentive to ensure that there are the maximum number of successful WSO's running at all times. 1500 WSO's that make the WSO creator just enough to keep bumping makes the forum way more than just 100 awesome WSO's making the WSO creators tons of money. If you leave every negative review on all the threads, then eventually those 100 would be all that was left and the weaker ones would die out as word gets out that they suck. If you instead delete those reviews, then the forum makes more money.

        Anyway, I'm not trying to stir things up and allege some vast conspiracy. I'm just noting that the incentive is there to delete them, and based on my personal experience, and those of others I've spoken with, reviews get deleted that really shouldn't be. It also doesn't help that no reason is given or notice to any other forum users that the post ever existed (other forums usually have 'deleted by mod' and then a reason why it was deleted so that the poster and others will know...maybe that's not feasible here for whatever reason).
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        • Profile picture of the author tpw
          Originally Posted by ryanjm View Post

          Anyway, I'm not trying to stir things up and allege some vast conspiracy.

          In that case, I will cancel the order for your tin foil hat. :p


          Originally Posted by ryanjm View Post

          I'm just noting that the incentive is there to delete them, and based on my personal experience, and those of others I've spoken with, reviews get deleted that really shouldn't be.

          Also PayPal accounts get terminated that shouldn't be... And Google Adwords accounts... And websites in Google's index... and Twitter accounts... And EzineArticles accounts... And EzineArticles submissions... And threads in the Warrior Forum.... And members in the Warrior Forum... And YouTube accounts.... And Blogger accounts.... And... And.... And.... And....

          My point is that people only scream discrimination and unfair treatment, without fessing up what was actually done to cause those things...

          There are two sides to every story, and the truth is often somewhere in the middle.
          We live in a a world where most of its inhabitants live in denial in most of the things that go wrong in their lives...

          You cannot take people at face value when they say that they were stopped from doing something, "without good cause"...

          Yes, some people lie, and others think they are angels who have never done anything cross in their lives... And still others who think they are guaranteed the freedom of speech in a private website...


          Originally Posted by ryanjm View Post

          It also doesn't help that no reason is given or notice to any other forum users that the post ever existed (other forums usually have 'deleted by mod' and then a reason why it was deleted so that the poster and others will know...maybe that's not feasible here for whatever reason).

          This issue has been demonstrated 90 ways on dozens of threads.

          The best way to understand the "why" is to put yourself in the shoes of the mods:
          • 300k members in the forum.
          • Millions of threads.
          • Hundreds of posts and threads reported by other members daily.
          • 6 mods, who have lives and businesses outside the forum.
          • People who are intent on having their way will argue with the mods over every nuance of a comment, just to try to find wiggle room so that they can get their way.
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          • Profile picture of the author bretski
            Originally Posted by tpw View Post

            In that case, I will cancel the order for your tin foil hat. :p
            When did orders close on the latest shipment of WF Tin Foil Hats... I hear they're going to be all the rage this fall in Paris and Tulsa
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        • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
          Originally Posted by ryanjm View Post

          FYP: All of whom are there because they want to make money.
          Contrary to popular belief, most WSOs are not about how to make money. They are about how to do things. Just because the sales copy says "do this and you'll make money" doesn't mean the product isn't fundamentally about how to do that, not how to make money. And an awful lot of the sales copy doesn't work that way in the first place.

          Most of the people in the WSO forum are there because it is easier to find good products there than it is to find them on the big bad internet at large. That doesn't mean it's brain-dead easy and you can just pick one at random. It just means the odds are better.

          1500 WSO's that make the WSO creator just enough to keep bumping
          ...still have to outperform other options. If I don't make more on a WSO than I make publishing elsewhere, it's not worth running one.

          100 awesome WSO's making the WSO creators tons of money
          ...will make the creators even more money if taken OFF the WSO forum to be sold elsewhere. The evolution of a successful WSO looks a lot like this:

          - Free report in the War Room
          - $10-$50 product in the WSO forum
          - $100-$500 product promoted via webinars
          - Membership site promoted to customer list

          The awesome WSOs disappear because the WSO Forum is a small pond for those big fish. I've got a half dozen products which were being sold for a combined total of about $150 on the WSO forum, and I've yanked them all down to be upgraded and repackaged into a $500 coordinated bundle. They're worth a whole hell of a lot more than Warriors will pay. Why should I keep them on the WSO forum?

          If you leave every negative review on all the threads, then eventually those 100 would be all that was left
          Not really. Here's actual advice from an actual top WSO seller (not me) about running a WSO (reworded to protect the innocent... and the guilty):
          Nobody is going to read your entire WSO thread. They're going to read the first page of it, at best. So your first concern must be to fill that first page with positive reviews, so nobody sees anything except a positive review on that page. Then, once you've delivered your product to a buyer, offer the buyer an incentive to leave a comment on your WSO thread. Don't ask for a positive one, just a comment. They'll leave a positive one anyway, because they don't want you to change your mind about the incentive.
          Then people can leave all the negative reviews they want. It won't affect the buy decision. And the crap WSOs don't go anywhere.

          Here's the problem with your logic: you think that if you change the rules, people will still play the game the same way. They won't. There are already ways people game the system to reduce the risks posed by bad reviews, and leaving the reviews there won't change that.
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          • Profile picture of the author fitz10
            Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

            Don't ask for a positive one, just a comment. They'll leave a positive one anyway, because they don't want you to change your mind about the incentive.
            This bit is out of hand. It's explicitly against the rules and it seems like nearly every WSO I see these days, including those by members who should know better (ie- they're huge names on here), is offering an incentive for reviews. It definitely puts those who choose to follow the rules at a disadvantage.
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            • Profile picture of the author Rob Howard
              Originally Posted by fitz10 View Post

              This bit is out of hand. It's explicitly against the rules and it seems like nearly every WSO I see these days, including those by members who should know better (ie- they're huge names on here), is offering an incentive for reviews. It definitely puts those who choose to follow the rules at a disadvantage.
              Against the rules, yes.

              But it's amazing to get people to leave a testimonial or positive comment. Asking someone to do so - it's almost easier to get people to give you money than it is to get a comment.

              You know what the most powerful human emotions are? Negative.

              When you get someone in a negative mood they are more way more inclined to take action (like lashing out and bashing product creators) than someone in a positive mood.

              Your product has to absolutely get people excited about it in order to get positive testimonials and even then, most people won't bother to post a positive testimonial. Mostly because, even if they are super happy with the product, that's it - they are happy and moving on to the next thing.

              Getting positive testimonials from a large group of people is like pulling teeth.

              Rob
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              • Profile picture of the author tpw
                Originally Posted by ccmusicman View Post

                Your product has to absolutely get people excited about it in order to get positive testimonials and even then, most people won't bother to post a positive testimonial. Mostly because, even if they are super happy with the product, that's it - they are happy and moving on to the next thing.

                Getting positive testimonials from a large group of people is like pulling teeth.

                Agree.

                I have had products that were really good, with a 0% refund rate, and people who sent me Skype messages to tell me how awesome the product was. Then these products died on the vine, because no one left a review on the thread.

                Potential buyers come around and see, "Oh, this product has been out for a month, and there are only two reviews. It must have been a less than stellar product."

                That is my worst nightmare in the WSO forum.

                As Caliban mentioned, products tend to sell for more money outside of the Warrior Forum.

                In the typical launch process, eventually the product is pulled from the Warrior Forum and set up as its own product somewhere else on the Internet.

                The WSO forum lets us test pricing and get feedback on the product that might improve the product, but it also gives us the opportunity to obtain the social proof, a.k.a testimonials, that will end up on the final sales page on our website.
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                • Profile picture of the author Kay King
                  Potential buyers come around and see, "Oh, this product has been out for a month, and there are only two reviews. It must have been a less than stellar product."
                  We have a very different type of buyer in the WSO section today.

                  In the typical launch process, eventually the product is pulled from the Warrior Forum and set up as its own product somewhere else on the Internet.

                  The WSO forum lets us test pricing and get feedback on the product that might improve the product, but it also gives us the opportunity to obtain the social proof, a.k.a testimonials, that will end up on the final sales page on our website.
                  That's what used to happen but today I see more who focus on creating products meant only for WSO's. I don't know when I've seen a product that was offered short term prior to public launch as we used to see all the time.

                  Today for the first time I noticed there are currently FIVE times as many people on the WSO section than on the main forum. That's almost double what the average was a few months ago. The buyers are there but the competition is fierce.

                  kay
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  • Profile picture of the author ryanjm
    ^You're right, I could be wrong about the forum as a whole and perhaps there is just a rogue mod or two that lazily deletes anything negative. All I can tell you is that I've had posts deleted that had no real reason to be deleted other than to protect the interests of the person paying the forum owners money. I made mention of this in another IM forum, and literally dozens of people came out with similar issues and experiences. These are all fairly level-headed folks too...the forum almost never devolves into some of the bickering that happens on the threads here. So I tend to put some stock in our collective experiences.

    Whatever the motivations are, posts get deleted that shouldn't be. I'm hoping that the OP's post means some of that will stop, since it was pretty clear that a lot of WSO'rs report these posts with the expectation that anything negative will be deleted.
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  • Profile picture of the author ryanjm
    ^I've seen bad reviews before. Definitely not saying that. However this forum could exist on newbs alone. The guys who never make a dime and just buy WSO after WSO waiting for the thing that will do the work for them. If you have nothing but positive reviews, these guys will buy and buy all day long. The WSO owners are also making sales, so they continue to pay for the WSOs to be bumped. If their sales thread fills up with negative reviews, they stop paying for bumps and then the forum loses that income stream.

    Eventually, yes, if you allow unlimited honest reviews you're left with just the best WSOs that offer legit value. But the forum makes money based on the volume of WSOs, not the volume of the WSO service/product provider sales. Therefore, it is in the interest of the forum to whitewash everything to maximize the number of WSO sales threads to encourage more WSOs. If there are 10,000 WSOs and each guy is profiting just enough to keep bumping his WSO, that makes the forum way more than 10 WSOs with each guy making $50,000.

    Maybe I'm off my rocker and need some sleep, but that's what's rolling around in my brain right now. It's also the reason why I would think any 'borderline' review would always err on the side of the WSO promoter.
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Maybe I'm off my rocker and need some sleep, but that's what's rolling around in my brain right now.
      I don't think you're off your rocker at all. You've got a good point as far as the experience level of some of the people posting reviews. Newer folks will tend to see more positives in a product, if only because it's stuff they didn't already know. And they may not have the experience to separate the good info from the bad.

      No arguments on that. You are the first person I've seen make that point, which is refreshing.

      It's something to consider seriously. Thank you.

      As far as the actions of the moderators... We rarely remove negative reviews unless they get personal, come from people who haven't paid for the product, or contain what appear to be deliberate falsehoods. Oh... Or if they are part of a string of comments that should have been a single review and then dropped. For those, we will normally remove all but the first post in the sequence.


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      • Profile picture of the author Tina Golden
        Paul,

        I've often wondered about this and I know others have mentioned this to seller reports it as a person who didn't buy? Do you guys ask the negative poster for proof or do you take the seller's word for it?

        Also, I've seen some sellers who claim that once a person asks for and is given a refund, then they are no longer customers so they report those negative reviews. To me, that's still a customer and they have a right and even an obligation to still post those comments. What happens in that situation?

        I believe I know the answers to both questions but have argued both points with people off the board so would like a place where I can point them that shows the facts.

        Thanks!
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  • Profile picture of the author tpw
    Originally Posted by ExRat View Post

    Hi Paul,

    It might be worth mentioning this rule here -

    3. A Warrior Special Offer Means The Price You Give Must Be Better Than The Price The Public At Large Can Get. (This is not a "buy my product" forum, it is a "Special Offer" forum)

    I'd be interested in a clarification on this Paul.

    If we don't need to offer the product off-site, if we offer it in the WSO forum, that could shorten the production curve.

    I always build a sales page off the forum as well as on the forum.

    If it just needs to be a product available to Warriors, then I can build the off-site sales pages after the product has run its course on the forum.
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    • Profile picture of the author Ken Strong
      Originally Posted by tpw View Post

      I'd be interested in a clarification on this Paul.

      If we don't need to offer the product off-site, if we offer it in the WSO forum, that could shorten the production curve.

      I always build a sales page off the forum as well as on the forum.

      If it just needs to be a product available to Warriors, then I can build the off-site sales pages after the product has run its course on the forum.
      Personally, I've never interpreted that to mean that WSOs were required to also be available outside the forum.

      Seems to me that something only available here definitely qualifies as a special offer.
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    • Profile picture of the author TracyNeedham
      Originally Posted by tpw View Post

      I always build a sales page off the forum as well as on the forum.

      If it just needs to be a product available to Warriors, then I can build the off-site sales pages after the product has run its course on the forum.
      Personally, I wish everyone would build a page off the forum. I want to promote more things listed for wso but I won't send my main list here. They're not IMers and it just wouldn't go over well with them. But so few people actually take the time to do that. (Which reminds me, I need to do mine!)

      Now with the warrior+ affiliate system, I believe it would be difficult to offer wso's at a different price outside the forum--unless you buy two listings. So, I'm not sure how that works with the rules. I have a shopping cart I use for that when need be but not everyone does.

      And as for your comments about sellers' attitudes sometimes, AMEN. I am shocked by the responses some people give to perfectly legit questions or feedback. It's like any little thing is cause for them to get riled up and defensive.

      That's just not how you handle customers if you're building a long-term business. Of course, some people aren't doing that.

      In fact, sometimes problems are opportunities--because some customers will be so impressed by the way you handled their issue that they become even more of a loyal fan than they would have been in the first place.
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      • Profile picture of the author Dan C. Rinnert
        Originally Posted by Alan Petersen View Post

        Just a reminder it's up to us members to help out by "flagging" these problem children to the super mods by hitting the report button.
        Super mods? If they're running around in tights and capes, I'm glad we don't see them.

        Originally Posted by TracyNeedham View Post

        Personally, I wish everyone would build a page off the forum. I want to promote more things listed for wso but I won't send my main list here. They're not IMers and it just wouldn't go over well with them. But so few people actually take the time to do that. (Which reminds me, I need to do mine!)
        Plus, as an affiliate, it would give you the opportunity to promote the higher priced product to your list.
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        Dan also writes content for hire, but you can't afford him anyway.
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        • Profile picture of the author Alan Petersen
          Originally Posted by Dan C. Rinnert View Post

          Super mods? If they're running around in tights and capes, I'm glad we don't see them.
          We're all mods but only the super mods are faster than a speeding bullet, more powerful than a locomotive, and able to leap tall buildings in a single bound.
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          • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
            Tina,
            I've often wondered about this and I know others have mentioned this to seller reports it as a person who didn't buy? Do you guys ask the negative poster for proof or do you take the seller's word for it?
            Judgement call. Depends on the situation. When in doubt, we try to get more info.
            Also, I've seen some sellers who claim that once a person asks for and is given a refund, then they are no longer customers so they report those negative reviews. To me, that's still a customer and they have a right and even an obligation to still post those comments. What happens in that situation?
            The only thing we delete when someone gets a refund is their in-thread refund request.

            They ponied up the shekels up front, they deserve to make their opinions known. Despite the preferences of the seller.


            Paul
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  • Profile picture of the author dagaul101
    Seems a reasonable set of rules, too many folks are keen to attack the person as opposed to civilly discussing the product
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael Colson
    I have never bought a WSO and not regretted it. A sad truth.
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    • Profile picture of the author Dan C. Rinnert
      Originally Posted by Michael Colson View Post

      I have never bought a WSO and not regretted it. A sad truth.
      Maybe you need to refine your selection parameters.
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      • Profile picture of the author Jill Carpenter
        Originally Posted by Michael Colson View Post

        I have never bought a WSO and not regretted it. A sad truth.
        Originally Posted by Dan C. Rinnert View Post

        Maybe you need to refine your selection parameters.
        To keep him on that winning streak, perhaps he should go to your latest offer Dan.

        I think you need another testimonial!
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      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
        Ryan,
        based on my personal experience, and those of others I've spoken with, reviews get deleted that really shouldn't be.
        If you phrase that as "some people think shouldn't be," I'd agree.

        Most people think everything they write is within the bounds of what should be allowed. Including people who post ads in main discussion, spam for backlinks, etc. Those are obvious examples on which most of us can agree. They don't belong.

        Moderators have to make judgement calls, and they often involve comments from people with more emotion invested in the situation. Those people believe, just as most of us do, that their judgement is accurate. The challenge is that we all work from different principles and assumptions. They aren't necessarily 'right' or 'wrong.' Sometimes they're just different.

        There are some people who refuse to believe that others can have different principles or operating assumptions without also having some nefarious motive or character flaw. They are under the misconception that 'different' is always bad.

        The rest is just folks trying to make sense of something they don't understand. With the notion that disagreement is bad, they almost have to come to the conclusion that the person who disagreed with them has some sort of bad intent.

        The mods do the best we can within our principles and assumptions. Beyond that, the best thing we can do is remember the advice of Anthony de Mello: There is one thing even G-d can't do: Please everyone.


        Paul
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        • Profile picture of the author ryanjm
          Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

          Ryan,If you phrase that as "some people think shouldn't be," I'd agree.

          Moderators have to make judgement calls, and they often involve comments from people with more emotion invested in the situation. Those people believe, just as most of us do, that their judgement is accurate. The challenge is that we all work from different principles and assumptions. They aren't necessarily 'right' or 'wrong.' Sometimes they're just different.

          There are some people who refuse to believe that others can have different principles or operating assumptions without also having some nefarious motive or character flaw. They are under the misconception that 'different' is always bad.

          Paul
          Sounds reasonable to me. If you deleted my awesome review 3 months ago, I forgive you

          It's easy to think bad things when you don't know why a post was deleted and you know the forum has an incentive to delete those. It's also easy to think those things when you don't know anyone that runs the show around here. But judging by your posts here I can tell you're a pretty mellow, reasonable guy. So I will just assume that you guys have good intentions and are honestly doing the best you can to be judges of what is or isn't acceptable. That's good in my book.
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  • Profile picture of the author Rus Sells
    Paul! Its about time you posted this!

    Not much I could actually add to this except that I set the ground rules for support right under the Buy My **** Now button. Of course there are always exceptions to this rule but those are rare.

    PS: Thomas is an unsung hero on this forum and I vote that we have a Thomas appreciation day! Thomas you rock!
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Russ,
      Not much I could actually add to this except that I set the ground rules for support right under the Buy My **** Now button. Of course there are always exceptions to this rule but those are rare.
      This is a really excellent idea. Thank you.

      A "Thomas Appreciation Day" isn't bad either, but I'm not sure how comfortable he'd be with it.


      Paul
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      • Profile picture of the author tpw
        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

        Russ,This is a really excellent idea. Thank you.

        A "Thomas Appreciation Day" isn't bad either, but I'm not sure how comfortable he'd be with it.


        Paul

        I was thinking something similar yesterday, but what I had in mind was a Buy Thomas a Drink Button on the Help Desk page.

        Of course, that would require a note that we should not expect to be able to buy favors... We know how some schmucks think around here.


        i.e. This payment button is for "thankful people", not "desperate people".
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  • Profile picture of the author Rus Sells
    Actually It might be a good idea to make it mandatory for sellers to include information about their support venue, either email or help desk, or whatever they use, right in their thread. This could instantly cut down on Thomas's heavy work load.

    As some one else mentioned its pretty hard to even know if a poster is a customer because the forum alias almost always never matches up with the client information gathered at the time of purchase. So allowing people to post support issues on a thread is overly burdensome to sellers. Of course there are some exceptions where the delivery of the sale went wrong or the buyer didn't get welcome email which provides the support info etc, but then if they were on my wso they'd easily find it if they go back to the thread.

    Buy Thomas a beer is a great idea!
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  • Profile picture of the author ReachOneMedia
    Hey Paul could you paste this post into the Warrior Special Offer Rules Sticky... very Useful Post

    thanks

    J
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  • Profile picture of the author engtito3
    Banned
    [DELETED]
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    • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
      Banned
      Originally Posted by engtito3 View Post

      waw that,s greet
      You sure picked the wrong thread for an irrelevant one-liner. :p
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  • Profile picture of the author Shemp Hain
    This is a double-edged sword. Sometimes the WSO creators get way out of line too.
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    • Profile picture of the author Michael Mayo
      Originally Posted by Shemp Hain View Post

      This is a double-edged sword. Sometimes the WSO creators get way out of line too.
      Go back and read the thread not just the first post.
      What you are stating has been covered in the thread.

      Have a Great Day!
      Michael
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      • Profile picture of the author Shemp Hain
        Originally Posted by Michael Mayo View Post

        Go back and read the thread not just the first post.
        What you are stating has been covered in the thread.

        Have a Great Day!
        Michael
        My bad. Lack of focus on my part.
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    • Profile picture of the author Rus Sells
      Shemp,

      Yes sometimes they are but sometimes so are the people posting on the wso.

      See keep in mind that seller must first pay for a membership, then pay for his wso and then also pay to continue to promote it. Seller should be afforded some power to control a thread they paid for.

      Like some conversation I caught in a skype group about a recent little flame war on a wso. A poster didn't like how the seller was responding to posts made by prospects. The poster felt to make a remark about that and basically trolled he seller by saying they wouldn't buy because of the way the seller treated others.

      Seller have this right as long as they don't personally attack the person. Will this type of response hurt the sellers sales? Most likely yes, but that's the sellers fault.

      Posters intent was to damage the seller because they did not like how the seller was responding. They had no business even posting if they didn't like how the seller was responding to other people.

      Is the Seller right or wrong? Both! From some peoples perspectives seller was right and within his rights to respond as such, and obv. from other peoples perspective seller is wrong.

      Originally Posted by Shemp Hain View Post

      This is a double-edged sword. Sometimes the WSO creators get way out of line too.
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