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The ever decreasing window on WSOs...

by seamusb
36 replies
Hi all

It seems WSOs used to be much easier. Just wondering if anyone else noticed this.

WSOs have always been competitive - I have only done a couple with varying degrees of success (mea cupla on some of this, of course).

I know your copy and headline have to be great to stand out, but recently - wow. It is busy in there.

The thing is - I live in Ireland and launched a WSO thread at possibly the wrong time. It tumbled off page 1 in what seemed only 8-10 hours. Most of which was night time in the USA where the biggest numbers of the Warriors live. My customers were asleep!

So if you are doing a WSO it seems you really have to optimise the launch time. It seems that the offers move off page one really really quickly.

I am wondering now - is an WSO worth it for certains types of product?
I mean, real products that do not warrant the HYPE value of some other WSOs (woooo, controversy).

Now with all the competition and the extra fee, they have become as difficult (or as easy, depending how you see it!) as any other channel on the net. I think that just doing a WSO on its own is not enough, I should probably be driving traffic to it from other sources too to increase the views. This was not the way it was several years ago when the WSO thread itself sufficed.

Just my experience, wondering if anybody has any thoughts.
Like everything else, success brings its own problems.
Running a WSO may not be the easiest (or cheapest) way to market anymore for some of us.

Cheers

Seamus
#decreasing #window #wsos
  • Profile picture of the author WillR
    Seamus,

    Is the WSO you are talking about the one in your sig that launched with the title "Now this looks like something I could use..."?

    If so, it may have been the thread title that was your problem. It's not an overly enticing title. You need to think of your WSO title like a headline. Would you ever use a headline like that on a sales page or squeeze page? It's far too vague IMO.

    Yes, the WSO forum is getting more and more competitive by the day but that's not to say you cannot have great success in there if you have a great product. Competition can actually be a good thing if you are able to rise above it.

    As for the time of day, if you had launched when it was day time in the US then yes, there may have been more people online, but that also means your WSO would have likely dropped off the first page even quicker.
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    • Profile picture of the author seamusb
      Originally Posted by WillR View Post

      Seamus,

      Is the WSO you are talking about the one in your sig that launched with the title "Now this looks like something I could use..."?

      If so, it may have been the thread title that was your problem. It's not an overly enticing title. You need to think of your WSO title like a headline. Would you ever use a headline like that on a sales page or squeeze page? It's far too vague IMO.
      Ha! well spotted This post was not just about that WSO though.
      This title was just an experiment. I experimented with some more pragmatic descriptive titles and they were no better.

      It could be my actual offer, of course! I might try something different - how about "This WSO sucks?"

      [Mod Edit: Notice that your sig has been turned off on this and the above post? I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt that you're genuinely posting an observation about the general nature of WSOs and not just starting a thread just to subtly point to your sig for your WSO. Up to now, every thread that talks about WSOs AND has a sig pointing to the posters WSO has been deleted.

      If you'd like this thread to continue, please remove your sig from your responses in this thread. Thanks]

      EDIT - Sigs removed as requested. Cheap self promotion not on the menu today
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      • Profile picture of the author WillR
        Originally Posted by seamusb View Post

        This title was just an experiment. I experimented with some more pragmatic descriptive titles and they were no better.

        It could be my actual offer, of course! I might try something different - how about "This WSO sucks?"
        I can see what you were trying to do with the title... create a bit of curiosity. I've used titles like this before. The problem is in the WSO forum you are competing against all these other hypey titles with dollar amounts and big numbers in them so you really need to have a punchy thread title.
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        • Profile picture of the author seamusb
          Originally Posted by WillR View Post

          I can see what you were trying to do with the title... create a bit of curiosity. I've used titles like this before. The problem is in the WSO forum you are competing against all these other hypey titles with dollar amounts and big numbers in them so you really need to have a punchy thread title.
          Yes, it says "This WSO sucks" at the moment and it is on page 3.
          The equivalent of the WSO dumpster
          We will see what happens.
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          • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Banks
            Originally Posted by seamusb View Post

            Yes, it says "This WSO sucks" at the moment and it is on page 3.
            The equivalent of the WSO dumpster
            We will see what happens.
            SCROLL UP and see what the mod wrote in your posts. You shouldn't be using your sig in this thread
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    • Profile picture of the author Jill Carpenter
      Originally Posted by seamusb View Post

      I am wondering now - is an WSO worth it for certains types of product?
      I mean, real products that do not warrant the HYPE value of some other WSOs (woooo, controversy).
      These are the best products to put in there IMO. Much longer shelf life.

      But Will is right. You can try to optimize what you have a bit better.
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  • Profile picture of the author Charlotte Jay
    Well, I guess it depends on what you're offering as to what kind of result you'll get. I agree that you do want to launch at a time when a lot of people are looking. I have a WSO launching (virgin WSO launcher here!) soon and I am curious how it will fare amongst the hypey stuff in there.
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  • Profile picture of the author Charlotte Jay
    If you're on page 3 now you can bump at an optimum time and try a different headline. I have some cut and paste headlines I've been messing around with for my own.
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  • Profile picture of the author Chris Sorrell
    The vast majority of your sales will come from affiliates promoting it, not its position in the wso section. You have to make it enticing for affiliates to promote in much the same regard as you have to make it enticing for customers to buy, otherwise your numbers are going to remain fairly small.
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  • Profile picture of the author Zesh
    Not done a WSO yet but from what I have read your ad copy and the title of your WSO does matter.

    Also in this day and age you need to see what the market wants. There are a ton of WSOs right now I am seeing and most of them overlap each other but the ones I always purchase are the ones that have lots of positive reviews and are worth investing
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    • Profile picture of the author seamusb
      Originally Posted by Zesh View Post

      Not done a WSO yet but from what I have read your ad copy and the title of your WSO does matter.

      Also in this day and age you need to see what the market wants. There are a ton of WSOs right now I am seeing and most of them overlap each other but the ones I always purchase are the ones that have lots of positive reviews and are worth investing
      Ah, I am going to bypass all the complicated stuff and tell the truth on this one.

      My WSO does suck, but that's OK.

      I have bumped it one more time for a laugh.
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  • Profile picture of the author SpikeS
    If you ever listen to anything Dan Kennedy says then you should probably look back to go forward.

    Here Yours FREE! 127 Winning Headlines you can get Eugene Schwartz's most successful headlines, in a PDF. You have to opt-in of course, but it is potentially more valuable than most WSOs. He was, apparently, a hugely successful copy writer. Might give you some ideas..

    Failing that (not everyone likes taking advice from a dead guy, right?), Dan Kennedy's "Ultimate Sales Letter" book is available, for free if you look
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    • Profile picture of the author WritingMadwoman
      It does help to pick what you think is the best time to launch it so your target customers are online and browsing.

      However, keep in mind that if you use keywords in the subject line and throughout the WSO itself, it's very likely to show up in the first page or two of Google listings.

      I've made consistent sales on WSO's that were on page 1,342,887,008 in the forum - people find it either through search engines, or by doing a search for specific keywords here in the forum.

      So don't get too discouraged if it falls off the first page too soon - that doesn't mean no one will find it!

      Wendy
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      • Profile picture of the author jwenberg
        I guess after reading Will's comment he summed it up nicely. However, the thing I would like to ad is that if YOU think your WSO sucks, then why would anyone else want to buy it?
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        • Profile picture of the author seamusb
          Originally Posted by jwenberg View Post

          I guess after reading Will's comment he summed it up nicely. However, the thing I would like to ad is that if YOU think your WSO sucks, then why would anyone else want to buy it?
          The WSO sucks because it has no offer of money.
          I also have a heavy sense of irony.
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          • Profile picture of the author Jill Carpenter
            Originally Posted by seamusb View Post

            The WSO sucks because it has no offer of money.
            I also have a heavy sense of irony.
            That is why you can have a longer shelf life.

            The information is good.

            I guess the question is "what exactly are you using advertising in the wso for?"

            Why are you there? What specific audience are you trying to capture? Who are you there for?

            Personally, I like the WSO area for that SE juice. Being on the first 2 pages within the forum is nice - don't get me wrong - but if the offer can not do something or stand on it's own without being on the first 2 pages, then there is something wrong with the offer. Meaning, I just had people pm me recently on offers I did LAST YEAR that are no longer available.

            They were not bumped. They are not being promoted. But people found me.

            And they found me only here - because only here am I still listed with those offers (payment buttons removed).

            So, you have paid to be there and should make the most of it. Especially now with a 40 dollar bump.

            Can your offer come up in google searches and stand on it's own? What would I be looking for on google that would help me find your page? Do you have all those keyword elements in your copy?
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            • Profile picture of the author seamusb
              Ah, Jill. I will tell you what - It is lovely, concerned people like you that keep me coming back to this forum. How sweet you are to take time to give me advice. I appreciate it.

              The SEO benefits are worthwhile alright and I had not considered that.

              But I fear that the signal to noise ratio in the WSO forum is too much for more modest but useful offers like mine. They get crowded out too quickly.

              The WSO sucks meme did not work, so now I have joined in the others in offering advice on creating huge amounts of money in no time (except my offer involves old chewing gum and PLR).

              If you can beat 'em, join 'em (or laugh at 'em).

              Originally Posted by Jill Carpenter View Post

              That is why you can have a longer shelf life.

              The information is good.

              I guess the question is "what exactly are you using advertising in the wso for?"

              Why are you there? What specific audience are you trying to capture? Who are you there for?

              Personally, I like the WSO area for that SE juice. Being on the first 2 pages within the forum is nice - don't get me wrong - but if the offer can not do something or stand on it's own without being on the first 2 pages, then there is something wrong with the offer. Meaning, I just had people pm me recently on offers I did LAST YEAR that are no longer available.

              They were not bumped. They are not being promoted. But people found me.

              And they found me only here - because only here am I still listed with those offers (payment buttons removed).

              So, you have paid to be there and should make the most of it. Especially now with a 40 dollar bump.

              Can your offer come up in google searches and stand on it's own? What would I be looking for on google that would help me find your page? Do you have all those keyword elements in your copy?
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              • Profile picture of the author Mr Steve
                I think timing of your launch, your title, and your copy play the most important part. The rest is just a formality
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              • Profile picture of the author Jill Carpenter
                Originally Posted by seamusb View Post

                , so now I have joined in the others in offering advice on creating huge amounts of money in no time (except my offer involves old chewing gum and PLR).

                If you can beat 'em, join 'em (or laugh at 'em).
                Well, I'll be sad to see you go. Fair well, and good luck in the shark pond.

                (j/k)

                (kinda)

                (maybe not)

                :p

                If you can do me one thing, so I don't lose all hope. Please, don't sell another "how to make money with the WSO's" WSO. Not that all of those are bad, but the people who are buying them and trying them are mostly a lot of people who should not be trying to walk before they have done some crawling of some kind - and they seem to rush the event. Just my personal observations.
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                • Profile picture of the author seamusb
                  Jill - I have been in this game a long time - SEO, coding - love 'em.

                  I was the one writing about "an almost pathological level of persistence" in another thread. I don't back down easily.

                  But at the same time, I don't want to throw good money away on a channel that has become infested with dodgy competing offers. How can my modest little WordPress guide compete with somebody offering $100,000 for no work? If I was a clueless newbie, I know that is the one I would be reading!

                  It is what it is. I am not complaining, more a sad harrumph. The market decides. I just need to find a new channel where the kind of offers I want to make (real ones!) have a chance. That is just common sense and good business.

                  I will still drop into the old WF though. Just no more WSOs unless this one explodes (which is as likely as me growing my hair back)

                  Onward and upward!

                  Seamus

                  Originally Posted by Jill Carpenter View Post

                  Well, I'll be sad to see you go. Fair well, and good luck in the shark pond.

                  (j/k)

                  (kinda)

                  (maybe not)

                  :p

                  If you can do me one thing, so I don't lose all hope. Please, don't sell another "how to make money with the WSO's" WSO. Not that all of those are bad, but the people who are buying them and trying them are mostly a lot of people who should not be trying to walk before they have done some crawling of some kind - and they seem to rush the event. Just my personal observations.
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                  • Profile picture of the author Keith Everett
                    Originally Posted by seamusb View Post

                    Jill - I have been in this game a long time - SEO, coding - love 'em.

                    I was the one writing about "an almost pathological level of persistence" in another thread. I don't back down easily.

                    But at the same time, I don't want to throw good money away on a channel that has become infested with dodgy competing offers. How can my modest little WordPress guide compete with somebody offering $100,000 for no work? If I was a clueless newbie, I know that is the one I would be reading!

                    It is what it is. I am not complaining, more a sad harrumph. The market decides. I just need to find a new channel where the kind of offers I want to make (real ones!) have a chance. That is just common sense and good business.

                    I will still drop into the old WF though. Just no more WSOs unless this one explodes (which is as likely as me growing my hair back)

                    Onward and upward!

                    Seamus
                    Hi Seamus

                    I launched my first ever WSO last week, and it sold 94 copies. It was about making videos with Camtasia.

                    I learnt about how to present copy from the more experienced warriors here before launching my WSO, and this might be an area you perhaps should look into.

                    The HEADLINE is Key, but also the offer should be enticing.. Is the product adding VALUE to the potential buyers..

                    You say your WSO Sucks?.. so why are you offering it?

                    Come on, you know that if you offer products that people want (not neccessarily - need) and you present them in a way that people are compelled to buy, you will sell them..

                    That's my 2 cents worth anyway..

                    Keith
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                    • Profile picture of the author seamusb
                      Originally Posted by kweb777 View Post

                      Hi Seamus

                      You say your WSO Sucks?.. so why are you offering it?

                      Keith
                      Thanks Keith - I think you missed the bit about me being ironic.
                      My WSO only sucks compared because it do not guarantee $40,000,000.00 for doing nothing.
                      It seems that you can make money with WSOs but it is very hit and miss (so is everything in business, but bear with me.)

                      I have made money with WSOs but some have crashed and burned really badly - I have no fear of failure

                      I can spend $40 on more directed forms of marketing that I measure more effectively. I just never know what will work. Some products that my students love get ignored in WSOLand. Weird.
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                      • Profile picture of the author mattlaclear
                        Originally Posted by seamusb View Post

                        Thanks Keith - I think you missed the bit about me being ironic.
                        My WSO only sucks compared because it do not guarantee $40,000,000.00 for doing nothing.
                        It seems that you can make money with WSOs but it is very hit and miss (so is everything in business, but bear with me.)

                        I have made money with WSOs but some have crashed and burned really badly - I have no fear of failure

                        I can spend $40 on more directed forms of marketing that I measure more effectively. I just never know what will work. Some products that my students love get ignored in WSOLand. Weird.
                        So you started this thread to say that your wso sucks because you are keeping it real with your copy? Then that means you started this thread to openly promote your wso. Correct? Which is why the mods edited your sig file and gave you a warning.

                        Do you attempt to cut corners like this on your product itself? Once a corner cutter always a corner cutter. Or am I missing something?
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                        • Profile picture of the author seamusb
                          Oh dear Matt - Let's not fight. No ad hominem attacks here.
                          You do have more hair than me and I wear glasses, you cannot attack a man wearing glasses.

                          Yeah but I screwed up on the sig though! That's fixed now. Sorry.
                          As for cutting corners, nah. That's not me.
                          I am a nice guy trying to run a business and help others to do so.
                          Probably the same as you really, but not as good at WSOs.

                          Originally Posted by mattlaclear View Post

                          So you started this thread to say that your wso sucks because you are keeping it real with your copy? Then that means you started this thread to openly promote your wso. Correct? Which is why the mods edited your sig file and gave you a warning.

                          Do you attempt to cut corners like this on your product itself? Once a corner cutter always a corner cutter. Or am I missing something?
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                • Profile picture of the author FranMurray
                  Hello Everyone,

                  I'm not entirely convinced that "launch timing" is a key factor.

                  As WillR has pointed out that "Titles" are extremely important, why would anyone click on something doesn't seem interesting. That being said, I'm not judging anyone's title.

                  I think in order to combat "The equivalent of the WSO dumpster" syndrome, let me share what I have learned. I have recently done 3 WSO's to test some theories. I won't list them because I'm not here advertise them, but I will say what they were about.

                  They were about in order...

                  Subject - Keyword research (Did Well)
                  Subject - PLR package (How to build a Website)(Not So Good)
                  Subject - Facebook Fan Pages (Did OK)

                  Here is the biggest thing I learned from these WSO product launches.

                  * The "Title" is extremely vital (we have discussed this, but not as important as you might think)

                  * The sales copy (obviously is extremely important for conversion)

                  * Subject of the WSO has to be popular / current

                  * The most important thing is Affiliate and JV's

                  You don't want to rely on the title strictly because of the "WSO Dumpster" concept.

                  I notice the bigger players on the WF using Affiliates & JV's to pound the WSO when it first comes out. The one thing you rarely notice though is the bumping of these WSO' right away after the WSO has fallen to the 3rd page.

                  They wait until they can say...

                  "[450 copies sold] Blah Blah Blah"

                  or

                  "[42+ Great Reviews] blah blah blah"

                  Only when they can claim this proof, then they will bump their WSO's.

                  Here is a brief "Step by Step" WSO product launch formula I will be following for all my upcoming WSO's

                  1. Create Product
                  2. Sales letter (at least 1 video, cater to the video lovers)
                  3. Get Reviews
                  4. Approach affiliates/JV's and get 5 to 10 Affiliates/JV's that will launch on day of launch (Use WarriorPlus)
                  5. Use "Dimesale" style offers
                  6. Launch product based solely on Affiliate / JV's
                  7. Gather the Data (conversion rates, refunds other stats and more reviews)
                  8. Find more affiliates (five step process I have developed)
                  9. Bump using a better "proof" or "review" title
                  10. Rinse & Repeat Steps 8 & 9 until that WSO has worn out it's welcome

                  Why would I go through all this for a WSO?

                  - I have been studying the WSO Launches for a long time, in fact, the bigger players in the WSO arena, the ones selling $5000+ per launch are all doing this.

                  - You get more bang for your buck when you bump, warriors are attracted to what is popular on the WF. When people see "6532 Views" & "127 Replies" or something like that, they want in!

                  These are just my thoughts.

                  Thanks,
                  Francis
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  • Profile picture of the author Gary McCaffrey
    I remembers when WSO's were special offers for warriors. And this place was nothing but fields!
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  • Profile picture of the author siteline
    Im getting ready to launch my first WSO and all this info has been very helpful, I will make sure to take into account some these points also.
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael Mayo
    seamusb,
    You might want to heed the Moderators Warning in post #4 above!
    http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...ml#post4307303

    [Mod Edit: Notice that your sig has been turned off on this and the above post? I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt that you're genuinely posting an observation about the general nature of WSOs and not just starting a thread just to subtly point to your sig for your WSO. Up to now, every thread that talks about WSOs AND has a sig pointing to the posters WSO has been deleted.

    If you'd like this thread to continue, please remove your sig from your responses in this thread. Thanks]
    ==========================
    I didn't want to see this thread or your WSO get deleted.

    Just thought you may have missed the Warning.

    Have a Great Day!
    Michael
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  • Profile picture of the author mattlaclear
    I'll take your word for it that your wso sucks. You have two jobs as a marketer regarding it. Either create a wso that doesn't suck...or politely step aside as the rest of us blow on by you in that section of the forum. Creating threads like this lamenting over your situation isn't going to bring home the bacon either.

    My first wso was ignored. My second wso sold a few copies. My third has brought in over $500k in the last 12 months.

    You say you are very persistent. So now is the time you prove it.

    Past failures mean nothing. So why dedicate a thread to such lamentations?
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  • Profile picture of the author Zeus66
    Sacrifice some front-end profits and put out a really good WSO for a modest price ($5-$12). Offer 100% commission to affiliates through WSO Pro (warriorplus.com) and get the word out. Be sure to get buyers on your email list. If you find a few affiliates that sell a lot of copies, develop relationships with them and go back to that well with future WSO's you put out.

    The real key is to leverage email lists (yours and the affiliates'). The days of making lots of WSO sales just from where your listing is in the queue are long gone (imo). At least for most Warriors. The rare superhero Warrior that everyone loves can still make good money just from having one out there, but that takes a lot of work to build up to such a status.

    John
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    • Profile picture of the author Andy Fletcher
      Originally Posted by Zeus66 View Post

      Sacrifice some front-end profits and put out a really good WSO for a modest price ($5-$12). Offer 100% commission to affiliates through WSO Pro (warriorplus.com) and get the word out. Be sure to get buyers on your email list. If you find a few affiliates that sell a lot of copies, develop relationships with them and go back to that well with future WSO's you put out.

      The real key is to leverage email lists (yours and the affiliates'). The days of making lots of WSO sales just from where your listing is in the queue are long gone (imo). At least for most Warriors. The rare superhero Warrior that everyone loves can still make good money just from having one out there, but that takes a lot of work to build up to such a status.

      John
      I agree entirely. While I expect to make back my $40 list/bump fee many times over every time I pay it that pales in comparison to the amount I make from mailing my list and having affiliates on board.

      For me the benefits of the WSO forum are the social proof of a thread I can't control and that people can see it really is a special offer compared to the public price. Far more so than the raw sales made, which to me is just another advert for it.

      Andy
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  • Profile picture of the author seamusb
    A Thread Summary

    I am putting this here as I won't post in this thread again.

    This thread was started to talk about WSOs. Some of my WSOs have been complete flops, even if I thought the offering was pretty good.

    What have I learned from this thread?
    • The mods don't like discussions about WSOs when you have one in your sig! Whoops!
    • The headline in your WSO is important (I tried several, some quite silly and they did not work)
    • You probably won't make huge amounts of money from your WSO unless you push traffic to it with JV partners or affiliates. This is the most important thing from the entire thread.
    • HYPE sells in WSO land.
    • There are some really great people on this forum.
    • Some people have no sense of irony
    • Some people are also quite protective of the reputation of the WSO forum as it is a huge money earner. More power to 'em I say! But it is not for everybody.
    • My products DO NOT suck. But some of my WSOs promoting those products have sucked as I did not have the necessary infrastructure in place to promote them. My current market is mainly Irish. If you asked them what is a WSO, they would think it was the World Safety Organization. Oh well.

    I may try another WSO.
    I may not.
    Yes, indeed. I am an international man of mystery.

    - Seamus
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  • Profile picture of the author Dan C. Rinnert
    I had a WSO a month or two or so ago.

    It did drop off page one fairly quickly.

    While it was on pages one through three, it got a fair amount of sales.

    Then, as it moved further down, sales naturally declined.

    Funny thing, though, when it started getting in the 20s of pages, sales picked up again. I think I got more sales since it got past page 20 then I did when it was still on the first couple pages.
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  • Profile picture of the author liamondrop
    Personally, I really appreciate the opening of topics like this, as you can learn a lot from the anecdotal experience of others, as well as getting lots of unique points of view.
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  • Profile picture of the author KDarden
    Seamus - I recently purchased one of your WSOs - and it DEFINITELY did NOT suck!! In fact, it will make my life so much better - I simply can't thank you enough. (of course I have no idea if it's the one you were talking about LOL)

    From the content of the WSO, as well as how it's written, and what I can tell of your background, I suspect that you are more of a teacher than a marketer. I say that because I am, too.

    I have learned a lot about marketing, but at the heart of everything, I am a teacher. I care about the quality of what I create and produce. I care about the usability, the market it's intended for, and the completeness of the solution I am offering.

    For those reasons, it's sometimes difficult for me to market myself or my products. I won't make outrageous claims, I won't inflate the usefulness, and I sincerely want my product to solve the customer's problem. I am not trying to hook them in so they have to keep coming back for my next offer in order to get the next part of the answer.

    There is sooooooo much hype in marketing - and it's particularly bad in internet marketing. There is a whole category of marketers who sell their promises to customers who are desperate, who are ignorant, or who want instant success without putting effort into anything. What a friend of mine used to call the Platinum Collar Workers. Unfortunately, you and I know there is never any success without effort, and looking for the next easy thing will simply line the pockets of the marketers.

    Many of the WSOs here over the past year or so have simply been tidbits that entice but don't satisfy. They seem to serve more as a way to get buyers into sales funnels than as a solution to real issues.

    My guess is it's one more symptom of the instant gratification need - and a result of the 5 second sound bite, the Sesame Street training, and the promise of riches beyond belief.

    Thanks for the thread, I enjoyed it!! And I l♥ve your WSO!!
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    We All Have Dreams - but - Before You Can Set Effective Goals, You Need to Determine Your Core Values

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