Why is it that outside of IM, I never encountered a Squeeze Page?

14 years ago

They probably do a different sales method. There are many ways to do sales. Long sales letters are just one way to do it, that has caught on as a trend in IM circles.

Your question is related to copywriting, in fact, so you would get better replies from the copywriting section.

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joshrev

14 years ago

Yes, they use a different sales method. The question is: Why?

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Afreidman

14 years ago

Hi Josh,

The reason they do that is because IT WORKS.

If it wouldn't create any sales no one would be doing it!

don't get me wrong I'm a firm believer in being different but the main recipe always seems to work.

The question is what creates faster results and what the purpose of the marketer is.

Good Luck! And Don't FORGET To Click On The Sign Up Button Below To Get Your Free Product!

hehe...
just kidding

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swilliams09 14 years ago

Honestly, I've never bought anything from a long winded sales letter. The few IM products I've bought have come from WSOs that I have studied to see if they would fit in with what I'm trying to learn and accomplish, or sites that look more traditional.

Sales letters exist for one reason, to shore up any doubts you have about a product. Most products requiring long sales letters intrinsically leave me with some doubts right off the bat.

I don't need a long sales letter to convince me to buy a physical product. I don't a ten page scroller to convince me to buy a service. But to buy some guy's money making system who I've never met and I only have his word and a few screen shots that it works, oh yes, I need a long sales letter to convince me of that.

In the dating and player market its called "selling a dream". The more you talk, the more you burrow into their psyche the more it starts off not making sense to making nothing but sense. The more you read, the more you invest, the more you invest the more likely you are to buy. You need this for a product that has no value or proof other than what other people say it has.

Example. If Bill Gates started a How To Get Rich in Technology Course and sold it for $20k per PDF, do you really think he would need a 10 page scroller? If Joe Blow from Cocamo tries the same thing, of course he has to sell you hard on it. He has nothing to back it up. Long sales letters are the fast talking car salesmen of the internet. Not that I'm hating on the fast talking car salesmen, I've done work for plenty of them and they are good people, but for their target market they have to do what works and that's what works with their customers. The BMW car salesmen don't have to do that shtick because their customers already want and believe in their products. The heavy lifting is already done for them.

As for your example, Whole Tomato. It seems the cater to a specific market of software developers and they have no need for that approach. In their market they are probably either well known or do the heavy lifting with advertising and direct sales. Their market is programming professionals. Who is the market for the average "make money online/how to be a rock star Internet marketer" system? Anyone. And since its anyone, you have to cover all of your bases in a sales letter.

Of course this is just my opinion and I could be completely wrong. But that's how I view it. I'm not judging people harshly who do it, I think I understand why they do it and just giving you my 2 cents on it.
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mattmajernik

Banned 14 years ago

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Fermina

14 years ago

Originally Posted by mattmajernik

One month ago I finally found online money making training which explain step by step how to create money making system from A-Z.It is training from famous and honesty marketer Chris Farrell and his training explain you from A to Z how he create his profitable internet business.His training is voted the NO.1 Internet Marketing Service according famous site IMreportcard.

How does this relate to the current topic?
All I see is here is that it seems you are promoting chris farrel. Is he paying you to do so?

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joshrev

14 years ago

Ok then the followup question: If it works and generates sales fast: Why isn't everyone doing this?

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dilipm 14 years ago

Originally Posted by joshrev

Ok then the followup question: If it works and generates sales fast: Why isn't everyone doing this?

Hey Josh,
You are asking a one shot marketing answer for every product in this digitial/social world..Core basic marketing techniqs are probably same..but I guess sometimes different products need different marketing strategies.

-D
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Daniel Scott

14 years ago

Two reasons...

1. Not every product needs a lot of selling. A Big Mac, for example, is a pretty straight-up concept.

2. Tons of direct response companies sell this way... look at Agora or Boardroom, for example.

Your "average" company both has different goals, different products, and different market awareness to a company built around direct response. It'd take me pages upon pages to explain this fully, but the short answer is different selling methods are needed in different situations.

Plus... your average corporate executive is an idiot. Look at the new Old Spice ads. Won a ton of awards... and shot sales DOWN by seven percent.

And that's a company who's done enough right to be worth that kind of money.

You'd be amazed how many companies would prefer to listen to their overpaid "marketing department" as opposed to the customers (ie. the cash register) on what will bring in more sales... what works... and what doesn't.

-Daniel

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Daniel Scott

14 years ago

Double post... sorry.

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outwest

14 years ago

I like the WSO and that type squeeze pages but I prefer shorter ones, though with the same style.
I am not easily convinced, and most of the WSO type sites I have seen on warrior forum to me are quite good. Most of these guys REALLY know how to sell, I am impressed with their layouts. Very impressed. Thats why I hang out here a lot now

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joshrev

14 years ago

Thanks for all your answers!

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EricMN

14 years ago

A lot of the above responses covered my thoughts exactly.

One of the things I took most from Bly's "Copywriter's Handbook" was that catering the message to the customer isn't enough but you have to cater the approach and entire copy itself.

Many who buy into tech products also have a head for how that tech operates. They know what they want, they don't have to be sold on it. In that case it's about what the product can do. "Give me the specs, I'll decide for myself" type deal.

In the case of wholetomato, they let you know the benefits, what the product does, a snapshot to get an idea, and a free trial for you to decide if it's the real deal. If I was a tech-dude, that's all I'd need to make my decision.

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David Keith 14 years ago

long sales letters are more about creating an emotional connection and selling "hope" rather than a product.

long sales letters help to create a higher perceived value of the product as well.

however, the reason i believe you see few squeeze pages, free reports, and other things to get customers into a marketing funnel is simple...these people don't understand the value of followup marketing.

my thought is that the internet is more of a direct sales type of media and even many very mature retailers are just that retailers, not direct sales companies. these retailers just don't use many of the proven direct sales methods like lead captures and marketing funnels as effectively.
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Matt Briggs 14 years ago

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- Alan Petersen 14 years ago
  
  The software is the squeeze page. You download it. Try it. And in 30 days you need to pay to get that license key or it goes away. Squeeze.
  
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Steven Miranda

14 years ago

You encounter a lot of them that are just presented in a different way.

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whitebread

14 years ago

Originally Posted by joshrev

Or one of these typical, long-winded sales letters with a buy button at the bottom?

All 'normal' products out there are marketed by product decription, benefits etc like the IM people do, but only IM people seem to use the sales letter format for their product websites.

For example, look over at www. wholetomato. com (without spaces). They have a product for software developers that saves them tons of time and increases productivity. Why are they not using a sales letter? Why don't they have random people in front of a camera that tell me how great their product is? Why are they not causing eye-cancer by writing their important points LIKE THIS?

Please enlighten me.

Internet Marketers Create Special Sales Letters to Create ''Hype''

It is like a digital Drug, Think about it!!

It doesn't matter how many BS Get rich quick scam courses you have purchased in the past..bottom line is you are still going to be buying them
and the only ones to blame are the sales page and the product creator.

Why on Earth Would they sell you a product that can get you rich over night for just 49$???

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CoachGC

14 years ago

Most offline business owners have experience in building / growing their business the old fashion way, that's how they started and sometimes the internet concept is a little difficult to understand. They want a website that has everything and they want to sell everything with it.

The concept behind sales pages if you take a deeper look is to promote one product, under that keyword rich domain. For a business owner that has many products that would be buying a key rich domain for each product they have and create the sales funnel with the sales page. For most of them that is a waste of money since they have been selling under the same shop. They think because ebay and amazon sell a lot of products they will be able to do it too.

It is a matter of being patient and educate them in the new way to sell in the internet.

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RobCopywriter

14 years ago

There are some companies who don't sell internet marketing products that do use squeeze pages to sell their stuff though...

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niffybranco

14 years ago

Lots of companies outside the Internet marketing niche use squeeze pages all you need to do to find them is to have a look at most cpa offers. Basically a squeeze page is a page that gets you to fill out your information in order for you to receive a reward. In other niches squeeze the pages might not look exactly like the ones in IM but they serve the same purpose. If you have a look at offers offline you will notice squeeze pages all over as well. Eg fill in your name and address to receive a sample of our cologne for free etc

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CDarklock

14 years ago

Originally Posted by joshrev

Why are they not using a sales letter?

They are. They've just split it up into ten different pieces.

On the front page, you'll see that there is a video demo on the lower left (stupid place to put it). You'll also see a demo download on the upper left (again, stupid place to put it). There's a bulleted list up top, followed by a list of supported languages and some further benefits and explanations. On the right sidebar there is a testimonial and "Visual Studio Partner" badge for social proof.

If you click over to the "Features" area, they have a menu of eight subsections (stupid). Under that menu, they have a "download trial" button and a "buy now" button - both in the same sort of orange other IMers use - and under that is an opt-in form (stupid placement). Below that is another testimonial.

But let's look at how the main body of that page works. You have the main list of features:

Features of Visual Assist X

And then you can click one (like the top "Refactoring") to get an expanded sales pitch on it:

Refactoring Features of Visual Assist X

And each element of that pitch can itself be expanded to get a massive description of the feature (stupid):

Rename - Visual Assist X

So here's the thing.

This page is not selling as much software as it could be.

It is not leading to enough downloads or enough opt-ins, and these people are - like most engineering companies - doing a crap job of marketing their product.

Hey, you asked.

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BIG Mike

Banned 14 years ago

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Kurt

14 years ago

Originally Posted by BIG Mike

I have to disagree - because they're not looking to build a list of anyone who is not involved in software development.

I'm an engineer and when looking for software, if the sales page was like a typical IM one, I'd bail immediately.

Technical people generally prefer specifics - short, to-the-point statements, with more detail available as needed. That's why it's broken down the way it is...but you must have noticed the "Download Free Trial" and optin form on every page.

Every software site I've ever visited was pretty much set up the same way - in that industry it works.

1. You search for what you're looking for.
2. You check the feature lists for the best matches.
3. You download the trial and evaluate it.
4. You return to the site best matching your needs and buy.

In other words, you sell yourself on it.

Optins are for exactly what they say - news, updates and offers (on their own products). There's no email marketing as we know it in IM; at best, you'll get a monthly email with related info and the occasional discount offered. You'll never see any kind of auto responder series from a reputable software company outside of IM.

Why? Technical people tend to have no tolerance for bull**** email - no amount of pressure, hype or whatever is going to make them buy and software vendors know this.

I'm on a bunch of mailing lists, from Amazon to Zend and I NEVER get anything but important updates, development info and discount offers from any of them. I actually open and read all of these emails because they're important to what I do.

The key here is they know their audience very well. To an Internet Marketer, that site might look like it's underselling and needs huge improvements, but to me, as an engineer, it's a great site and the product looks excellent. While neither one of us has their sales figures, I would guess it's performing well.

Exactly. While most selling "benefits" is best for most people, techies prefer "features", myself included.

And CEO types what it even shorter. If you've ever watched Shark Tank, they want bottom line numbers, nothing else really matters much.

Here's an example of the difference between techies and "regular" people. Take the Bose Wave radio commercials. They'll say things like "fill the room with rich, full sound". This is selling benefits.

However, techies don't care about that...Tell me how many watts, THD, speaker range, numnber of jacks, etc. I want to know the features and I"ll make up my own benefits.

A CEO type wants to know how much the stereo costs and how much will it improve sales.

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CDarklock 14 years ago

Originally Posted by BIG Mike

if the sales page was like a typical IM one, I'd bail immediately.

And according to the people who buy from those typical IM sales pages, so would they.

Except they don't. They buy from them. Because in the end, they don't make their decision based on the design of the sales page. They make their decision based on whether it is the right tool for the job, so making that easy to determine is your first and most important goal.

The video demo should be front and center of that site, not buried at the bottom of the left sidebar.
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dilipm

14 years ago

HOnestly, this wholetomato site oozes confidence that the product does what it says. And I believe that if your product is good it will sell itself...I mean...well...not literally...u know what I mean...

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sheffernan

14 years ago

It's funny how Internet marketers seem to fall for their own tricks though haha! Admit it, you've been sucked into buying the WSO of the day.....more than once!

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Curtis McKinnon

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Fermina

How does this relate to the current topic?
All I see is here is that it seems you are promoting chris farrel. Is he paying you to do so?

You noticed this too, I don't think Chris is paying him I just don't understand why it was necessary to post.

Originally Posted by sheffernan

It's funny how Internet marketers seem to fall for their own tricks though haha! Admit it, you've been sucked into buying the WSO of the day.....more than once!

I disagree with this point, I tend to classify myself as being a IMer (maybe not a good one, or maybe a lazy on) and I've never been "sucked" into buying any WSO or IM product.

I started around the time when all the IMers around where criticizing other IMers for hiding the secret and never displaying the proper method. I also noticed that any information on how to make money online that you can buy; You can also get for free from websites like KeywordAcademy, The Challenge.
I also found out that you can get a lot of info from free Resell Rights Memberships.

On another note I would like to add that I never truly believed in the long sales page approach (I don't much believe in the Video sales page either) mainly because they tend to overcompensate and lose my attention before we even get to how much its going to cost me or how its going to be useful to me.

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MChriston

14 years ago

Going back to the original question...

It kinda works both ways... There is that bit of video I think Mike Koenigs released where Tony Robbins is sitting down with Kern, Filsaime, Reese, etc ...and they're talking about IM methods ...and Tony asks "ermmm, what's a squeeze page?"

But then we have the big buzz a few years ago around 1-click-upsell and 'launch trees' (presented by Filsaime and Singal)... the IM crowd went crazy for this 'hot new idea'. BUT... those ideas had existed in main stream business for many, MANY years before that.

Conclusion: Normal ("offline") business has a lot to learn from IM ...AND... IM still has a lot to learn from normal business!

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joshrev

14 years ago

Thanks for the great discussion! What I take away from this is that the target group for IM products is best sold to by persuading them to buy something, at best repeatedly. Since you don't visit them at their homes to talk until they give in, you use these sales letters which are essentially the same just in writing. The fasttalkingusedcarsalesman was a great analogy for this.

Most of the other products encountered on the internet sell themselves by being a brand, solving specific problems, being easy to grasp or the people selling them just do bad marketing, or the target group just doesn't like being told what they need, like engineers.

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Aussie_Al 14 years ago

Plenty of other types of products/services use squeeze pages - I have seen them for anything from How to play Poker e-books to Golfing guides.
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barache

14 years ago

If you have never encountered a squeeze page outside IM, you just haven't surfed enough. I find them in many other niches today, still less than im, but much more than 5 years ago.

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lotsofsnow

14 years ago

You have very long sales letters elsewhere too.

They are not called sales letters though...

What about a full blown movie that was produced with only one intention: to sell the Mini.

And it did work. People flogged to the movie and watched the sales presentation for 1.5 hours and then went ahead and bought that cute car...

My point is: Each industry has it's own sales letters.

Software has the sales letter to: It is called download the product and try it free for 30 days. It is a sales presentation in a different form.

You can't make a movie for a "how to make money product" and you can't offer a 30 day free trial (completely free).

So, what is left: Draw a nice picture using words...

HP

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stig57

14 years ago

Originally Posted by joshrev

Or one of these typical, long-winded sales letters with a buy button at the bottom?

All 'normal' products out there are marketed by product decription, benefits etc like the IM people do, but only IM people seem to use the sales letter format for their product websites.

Please enlighten me.

Ah Grasshopper.. but real life IS full of squeeze pages. That's why they have candy bars at the check out stand, and 2 for 1 sales in the bakery section, and why the local Chevy dealer tells you "push it, drag it, or drive it in, we'll give you $500 toward the purchase of your new car this Saturday only".

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tmjoe

14 years ago

Because IM products are not actual products in general. They are mostly ideas, methods and theories. To sell such things you need to put extra effort to win over people's decision.
You must be able to tap into their brain wave to convince them to buy your IM product. Which is why we need to have a squeeze page, for us to build a list, thus enabling us to build a relationship with people.

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nm5419

14 years ago

Originally Posted by joshrev

For example, look over at wholetomato (without spaces). They have a product for software developers that saves them tons of time and increases productivity. Why are they not using a sales letter?

The software development community frowns on long sales letters for two reasons: 1) They scream scam, and 2) they don't fit the image of serious programmers. Wholetomato's website exemplifies the method preferred by programmers. Long sales letters are for used car salesmen.

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Daniel Scott

14 years ago

Originally Posted by nm5419

Long sales letters are for used car salesmen.

If you think software is never sold by using sales letters, you really need to actually learn something about the marketing world before you spout of your incorrect assumptions as fact.

-Daniel

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nm5419

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Daniel Scott

If you think software is never sold by using sales letters, you really need to actually learn something about the marketing world before you spout of your incorrect assumptions as fact.

-Daniel

Sorry non-objective copywriter. I've been in the "marketing world" for over 15 years now, which is why I would give your reply an ounce of credence had it come from someone who wasn't so heavily drenched in the sales crap industry.

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tpw

14 years ago

Originally Posted by nm5419

Long sales letters are for used car salesmen.

When I was much younger, in the 70's and 80's, I found long-copy in many print publications.

Originally Posted by nm5419

Sorry non-objective copywriter. I've been in the "marketing world" for over 15 years now, which is why I would give your reply an ounce of credence had it come from someone who wasn't so heavily drenched in the sales crap industry.

Are you going to attack me too, because I also have a different opinion than yours? :rolleyes:

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Aussie_Al 14 years ago

Originally Posted by tpw

When I was much younger, in the 70's and 80's, I found long-copy in many print publications.

I have a stack of magazines right now that have long form sales letters in them

Matt Furey runs them in many martial arts magazines to this day.
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sodette1

14 years ago

Originally Posted by nm5419

Sorry non-objective copywriter. I've been in the "marketing world" for over 15 years now, which is why I would give your reply an ounce of credence had it come from someone who wasn't so heavily drenched in the sales crap industry.

You know... it's statements like that which make me laugh all the way to the bank while you struggle to grow your businesses or help your clients to do the same.

Squeeze pages, optin boxes... long copy... videos... magalogs... direct response... direct mail... etc.

Anyone who tries to put marketing into one box is simply missing the point and if you really feel you, your market or your clients won't respond to squeeze pages with quality offers or long - relevant - because "It would never work for MY industry!" You have fun watching competitors using services like mine run past yours so fast you'd think we were cheating.

Direct response works and the reason we know it is because we measure our responses. MEASURE the effectiveness of our marketing. We don't assume, we don't let our own personal preferences bias our decisions, we test.

This conversation comes up over and over and over again - whether it's squeeze pages or long copy versus short copy - people want to get confirmation that their views are correct.

Usually - it's those who prefer no squeeze pages, no long copy and frankly, no "selling" at all who claim that just because text is red or copy is long it must be full of hyped up, emotionally manipulating, garbage.

All I can say is... test it yourself. Go ahead... put your short, engineers only love facts, copy against professionally written copy from someone who gets it and my money goes on, as I've tested over and over again, the better, longer, more detailed AND emotionally connected copy.

Say what you want... but please, quit trying to tell new marketers that squeeze pages aren't for non-IM markets or long copy isn't needed and short copy works great.

You may be very wrong - in fact, you probably are doing readers a huge injustice with these dogmatic statements biased by personal preference (which, I'd even challenge you on as well... if you want and love something, how can more information about it be a bad thing?).

There is no box.

What works for one market or product may not work for another and there are many variables to consider from how much the market already loves you and trusts you to... how much competition your product has in the marketplace, for instance.

The responsible approach to all marketing is to know your audience and cater your messages and marketing to them - and test everything - even those things you may not personally like. You aren't selling to you... regardless how close to the market you think you are, you are selling to me or someone else and chances are you don't know me nearly as well as you think you do.

Quit trying to fit marketing in one box and try everything... every time.

Only then will you really know what works best objectively.

Also, for those of you who just really want to go down the Republican or Democrat version of this argument of "use a squeeze page" or "long copy versus short copy" partisanship all I have to say is...

Please stop trying to push your views on others... there is no right or wrong, only right or wrong for YOU.

For everyone else with an open mind - quit trying to find a short-cut or get validation for being lazy and just test what you are doing.

Then, you will know for certain what works best - hands down.

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tpw

14 years ago

Re: Why is it that outside of IM, I never encountered a Squeeze Page?

Sheltered Life...

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rondo

14 years ago

Squeeze pages have become common everywhere in the last few years. Take Groupon, LivingSocial and the 1000's of other deal sites and 'private shopping' sites that are using them.

Even the Whitehouse is using one!
The White House

Andrew

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celente

14 years ago

OP must live under a rock. Not only have I seen lots of squeeze pages outside of IM but there are some good ones, with some good offer and probably convert well as well.

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Viramara

14 years ago

Not really. I've been encountered a squeeze page for pregnancy niche

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BIG Mike

Banned 14 years ago

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CDarklock 14 years ago

Originally Posted by BIG Mike

I'm not disputing that - but we're talking about two entirely different audiences.

I agree we're talking about two different audiences, but what I'm saying is that this web site could do a much better sales job than it is doing - TO THE ACTUAL TARGET AUDIENCE.

I was myself a software developer and project manager for twenty years, you know. I'm not unfamiliar with that audience. But you also have to keep in mind that this page is not just designed to sell the developer on the product, but also the BDM who signs the check. It needs to do an adequate job of selling to both audiences, and the way it's structured right now it's doing a mediocre job of selling to the developer and an absolutely crap job of selling to the manager.
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- BIG Mike Banned 14 years ago
  
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  CDarklock 14 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by BIG Mike
  
  In my experience it's the developer who has to sell his or her manager on it.
  
  In my experience, sometimes the PM has to license the tools before he has the developers.
  
  Which is why sometimes you go to a job interview and get asked "do you have experience with FlyByNight AwesomeTool 3.2?" during the first few minutes. If you say "yes," sometimes that makes you the official training staff for this tool.
  
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  CDarklock 14 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by BIG Mike
  
  Tell me about it...one of the many reasons I started hiding skills I had near the end of my career, LOL.
  
  Yep. In order to actually get PM jobs instead of dev jobs, I frequently had to lie and say I didn't know languages and frameworks I'd used extensively in previous jobs.
  
  Somehow, nobody ever found it particularly strange that I would be the lead Windows developer on a C++/MFC project in 1997, list that experience right on my resume, but then miraculously not know C++ or MFC five years later.
  
  Gives "most ignorance is willful" a whole new connotation, doesn't it?
  
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MichaelHiles

14 years ago

I think one of the problems is the distinction between the concepts of brand image marketing and direct response marketing.

Brand image marketers hate direct response folks... they claim it's lowbrow, etc... They're interested in pretty pictures and funny tv commercials that win Clio awards.

Direct response is a very different ballgame. But it works. Period.

The internet had its big heyday with large brand players trying to create interruption marketing. Some are still trying it. But the niche players have learned that to create a big company, you must adopt a direct response strategy with the web. People can just click and make your brand image interruption nonsense disappear.

Oh... and those crappy sales letters?

Here's a little company that uses one pretty effectively.

Project management software, online collaboration: Basecamp

I'd say 37Signals knows what's up.

Here's another one...

http://aws.amazon.com/s3/

Might not be as graphically rich, but they know their audience.... the techie folks. But it IS a "squeeze page"... complete with a button right up top right.

For a good time, log out of your Facebook account and just go to the home page.

http://www.facebook.com

Voila! The most successful squeeze page in history.

Here's another cloud software player.... http://www.zoho.com/

How about these guys? http://flowplayer.org/3.2/

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Mike Anthony

14 years ago

Originally Posted by MichaelHiles

Oh... and those crappy sales letters?

Here's a little company that uses one pretty effectively.

Project management software, online collaboration: Basecamp

I'd say 37Signals knows what's up.

Here's another one...

Amazon Simple Storage Service (Amazon S3)

I find little resemblance between those website layouts with one page sales letters the OP is talking about.

A) the entire sales pitch is not on one page
B) they are both part of a full website with multiple pages
C) they have navigation to other pages while most IM sales letters shy away from anything taking the reader away from the page

The only thing they have in common is text flowing down the page but then so do blogs.

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MichaelHiles

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Mike Anthony

I find little resemblance between those website layouts with one page sales letters the OP is talking about.

A) the entire sales pitch is not on one page
B) they are both part of a full website with multiple pages
C) they have navigation to other pages while most IM sales letters shy away from anything taking the reader away from the page

The only thing they have in common is text flowing down the page but then so do blogs.

Are we talking about SQUEEZE PAGES or a SALES PAGE?

There is a difference.

Now then, all of these pages are the same.

The have a call to action and induce the visitor to take the next step in the process towards becoming a customer.

"Layout" is irrelevant. Look past layout. What is the page designed to do?

Basecamp, in particular, follows the traditional direct marketing format pretty heavily. It might be prettier, but the reality is that it is exactly the same. In particular, it follows the ADIA model pretty closely... headline, create desire, testimonials, benefits selling, strong call to action.... even has ugly red highlighted text!!

Here's another great squeeze page... https://posterous.com/

http://www.tumblr.com/

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Mike Anthony

14 years ago

Originally Posted by MichaelHiles

Now then, all of these pages are the same.

The have a call to action and induce the visitor to take the next step in the process towards becoming a customer.

"Layout" is irrelevant. Look past layout. What is the page designed to do?

Actually thats irrelevant to the OP's point. he is clearly identifying one page sales letters used by Imers. By your rational this is a sales letter page as well

Amazon.com: Online Shopping for Electronics, Apparel, Computers, Books, DVDs & more

So you have merely gone off on a tangent and reinterpreted sales letter pages as anything that has commercial intent. The Op said nothing about sales pages he referred to sales letter pages used by IM and he even pin pointed it with the use of Red letters (the rage in one page sales letters) so everyone knows what we are talking about.

Basecamp, in particular, follows the traditional direct marketing format pretty heavily

It follows a web 2.O design pretty heavily. period. Its not a one page sales letter. Its a complete website. You are conflating the two to try and make a point Facebook as a squeeze page as Big Mike points out doesn't work either or the register page for WF is a squeeze page

Here's another great squeeze page... https://posterous.com/

Sign up | Tumblr

Both signup forms in order to use a service. Sales letter pages and squeeze pages work in certain IM niches but your attempt to conflate them into all forms of commercial and signup forms for services fails.

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CDarklock 14 years ago

Originally Posted by Mike Anthony

he is clearly identifying one page sales letters used by Imers.

And when he calls that a "squeeze page," it indicates rather nicely just what an expert he is on them.
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- nm5419 14 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by CDarklock
  
  And when he calls that a "squeeze page," it indicates rather nicely just what an expert he is on them.
  
  It's pretty obvious what the OP was describing (had you read his post). And if you're still confused, the OP is talking about home pages like yours.
  
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  CDarklock 14 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by nm5419
  
  the OP is talking about home pages like yours.
  
  Well, see, the funny thing is... that's a squeeze page.
  
  So yeah, someone is confused. Obviously.
  
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  nm5419 14 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by CDarklock
  
  Well, see, the funny thing is... that's a squeeze page.
  
  So yeah, someone is confused. Obviously.
  
  I was referring to the link in your sig, although now at this point, I'm not sure which is worse. Information that goes on and on and on -- or -- no information at all!
  
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  CDarklock 14 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by nm5419
  
  I was referring to the link in your sig
  
  That isn't my home page. It's the network where my twenty hours of live video is broadcast each week. I don't own it, and I'm not in charge of the layout.
  
  no information at all!
  
  You don't get there directly. You get there by downloading one of the reports I give out on my Monday and Thursday shows, which has a link at the end. So you're getting there after seeing my show and reading my report, and you don't need more information.
  
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MichaelHiles

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Mike Anthony

Actually thats irrelevant to the OP's point. he is clearly identifying one page sales letters used by Imers. By your rational this is a sales letter page as well

Amazon.com: Online Shopping for Electronics, Apparel, Computers, Books, DVDs & more

So you have merely gone off on a tangent and reinterpreted sales letter pages as anything that has commercial intent. The Op said nothing about sales pages he referred to sales letter pages used by IM and he even pin pointed it with the use of Red letters (the rage in one page sales letters) so everyone knows what we are talking about.

It follows a web 2.O design pretty heavily. period. Its not a one page sales letter. Its a complete website. You are conflating the two to try and make a point Facebook as a squeeze page as Big Mike points out doesn't work either or the register page for WF is a squeeze page

Both signup forms in order to use a service. Sales letter pages and squeeze pages work in certain IM niches but your attempt to conflate them into all forms of commercial and signup forms for services fails.

The OP's title clearly says "squeeze page" but there is "sales page" discussion interspersed throughout this conversation. There is clearly a distinction between the two.

No Mike, I haven't interpreted sales page as any page with commercial intent.I am drawing the distinction between marketing pages that utilize a direct response model... a la ADIA or some derivative thereof, which has its roots in the long-form sales letter direct response marketing model.

A prettier sales page with graphics that follows the model is still a direct response page. It has the same elements and performs the same function with the same intent and methology.

But you clearly have a bias that a direct response model page is only a block text page and long form sales letter, sans format or graphics.

It's clear that you're not getting my point, but BIG Mike did. http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...ml#post4340336

I don't think any further attempt at clarification will bring you any closer to the point either. So you and I will simply have to agree to disagree.

The bigger point that must be made is that adopting and adhering to a personal bias in business is at best limiting, and at worst a fatal competitive error.

If a long form text only sales letter is what outperforms other pretty pages, then why would someone inject their own asthetics or bias into the mix?

Test and see what works best for your business and then use that as the baseline for the next test... then the next....

But simply rejecting any marketing form because of a personal bias is pretty narrow.

Even Warren Buffett doesn't think that Berkshire Hathaway needs a lot of design.

Ugly text everywhere.

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Mike Anthony

14 years ago

Originally Posted by MichaelHiles

The OP's title clearly says "squeeze page" but there is "sales page" discussion interspersed throughout this conversation. There is clearly a distinction between the two.

Ah but I was referring to his post not his title. His post makes it very clear what he was talking about when he referenced sales letter pages which was the context for all following discussions. I never go off titles. I read the OP.

But you clearly have a bias that a direct response model page is only a block text page and long form sales letter, sans format or graphics.

Nope. No such bias so clearly you are wrong on that. I read the Op and its pretty clear what he was referring to is all. your equating those websites designs with sales letter pages just doesn't compute. He nor I was making a point about all "direct response model pages". I do think there is the tendency for IMers to try and equate all selling activities with one page sales letters. Often they (not necessarily you) act like they work across the entire internet population which they don't

By many people they are viewed as seedy and thats increasing in many circles. It will continue to increase because unfortunately it is the preferred format of real IM scammers as well. just something to watch I guess.

But simply rejecting any marketing form because of a personal bias is pretty narrow.

replying that to me is a strawman and has its own bias and narrowness. I don't reject any marketing form much less sales letter pages which I use as I see fit. I just don't think you can conflate them into everything you see out there. Huge difference.

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MChriston

14 years ago

Originally Posted by MichaelHiles

...they know their audience....

That for me is the key comment.

In the IM niche there is an expectation for how business is supposed to be done... so a lot of marketers do it a certain way ...because that is what everyone else is doing.

It's the basic psychology of familiarity ...it seems safe.

But what if I suggested most IM'rs are just following the herd?

Surely it should be about seeing WHAT ELSE would work with your target audience? ...that could be traditional squeeze pages, but then again it could be a completely different twist on the same idea. It could be long copy ...it could be short...

But obviously the key is to use what works.

The problem is most people don't test that - they wait for someone else to come up with an idea and then follow suit.

Example: I believe it was James Dyson who came up with the "WARNING" style of squeeze page for Frank Kern... they tested it... it worked ...so now LOTS of people are using the same design.

But what about having your own idea, befitting to your own market?

Test that - if it works, go for it ...and it doesn't matter if no one else is doing it.

It's then not about what is or isn't an "IM approach" - it's about what works.

Mainstream business has many, MANY great ideas that can be adapted for the IM niche... but most IM'rs chose to just do the same as everyone else in that niche. Result: Their business does not stand out.

Also - on a similar point - Michael Hiles also hits the nail on the head by pointing out the difference between function and layout... or to put it another way the difference between structure and content.

It is the purpose/function of, say, a squeeze page that defines whether it's a squeeze page ...and NOT whether it has bullets, features, etc (that's just content).

So if you can think of an entirely new way to fulfil the purpose of a squeeze page ...then try it out! And if it works, keep doing it...

...but rest assured, once you are seen to get success, everyone will else will start doing the same!!

(Fun closing comment: is this discussion only for people called Michael? ...check out the posters>>> BigMike, MichaelHiles, Mike Anthony etc ... :p )

All the best,

(yet another) Michael

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nm5419

14 years ago

Originally Posted by MChriston

But what if I suggested most IM'rs are just following the herd?

Then you would be correct.

Originally Posted by MChriston

The problem is most people don't test that - they wait for someone else to come up with an idea and then follow suit.

Correct again.

Originally Posted by MChriston

But what about having your own idea, befitting to your own market?

That would require too much work.

Originally Posted by MChriston

Mainstream business has many, MANY great ideas that can be adapted for the IM niche... but most IM'rs chose to just do the same as everyone else in that niche. Result: Their business does not stand out.

And then they come here to whine.

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Mike Anthony

14 years ago

Originally Posted by joshrev

All 'normal' products out there are marketed by product decription, benefits etc like the IM people do, but only IM people seem to use the sales letter format for their product websites.
..............
Please enlighten me.

Your use of the word "All" will allow some to dodge the obvious and that is that the long sales letters with the hype appeals and Red letters turns off a great many people and though some may complain - it HAS developed the reputation of being a rip off format to many.

As many have stated its really your target audience. If they buy on emotion , hope and fear then that format sales letters (all sales letters aren't of the same "genre") works great if they don't not so much. Those who say it works often leave off the to who? factor.

enlightenment? bleh. you are not going to get it on an IM board. If and when sales letters lose their luster (more than they have) the last people to admit it will be Imers who use them. Thats like fighting words for some

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MichaelHiles

14 years ago

BIG Mike... I say that all these are the same kind of page because they are all direct response pages vs. brand appeal pages.

Every one of these examples are hard core direct reponse model pages.

It's not attempting to induce action based on brand image appeal.

While they might be a little "prettier", the form is still very much the same as the basic, pure text sales letter.

Here's a strong brand page... http://www.lancome-usa.com/

But even then, you can see the dirty direct response inching its filthiness into the mix with an email opt-in at the bottom of the page.

I'll just go out on a limb and suggest that ugly-azzed thing made the creative director's bung hole snap shut when the marketing director demanded that it was put there.

Fashion houses are definately pure brand machines.... http://www.dolcegabbana.com/

On even the B2B technical side, the trend has been moving towards product-specific minisites, which essentially function as a multi-"paged" sales letter designed to induce contact, but still satisfy the corporate-minded marketing folks.... http://smartplatform.info/

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Marian Berghes

14 years ago

Here it is, 37signals tested a long form sales letter and it did work pretty well, you can read about it here:

Behind the scenes: Highrise marketing site A/B testing part 1 - (37signals)

So there, now you've seen a long form sales letter outside IM.

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MichaelHiles

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Marian Berghes

Here it is, 37signals tested a long form sales letter and it did work pretty well, you can read about it here:

Behind the scenes: Highrise marketing site A/B testing part 1 - (37signals)

So there, now you've seen a long form sales letter outside IM.

Awesome Marian!!! Great find.

I knew those guys were hardcore direct marketing folks... apparent in their book Rework.

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- Mike Anthony 14 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by BIG Mike
  
  They're testing it, but it's not being used on their home page.
  
  plus its for just one of their products with major referrals from their main site. In the normal sales flow it is not the first page their customers come to.
  
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xavierfok

14 years ago

It looks like the common answers that warriors agree upon are that

1. People don't do IM-style sales letters it because they don't know how to do it
2. People do it because it works, gets sales, get sign ups etc

I have recently learnt about behavioral selling, and would like to share with fellow warriors.

There are generally 2 types of people buying online, generally those who prefer to "stay safe", and those who require alot of information. They make up about 80% of the population. People also buy on emotion.

IM-style sales letters therefore appeal to the "stay safe" crowd by saying there are refunds and 10000 people have already tried it, and gives the 99 benefits to the other group that wants more information.

Of course there are different buying behaviours, but they make up the minority 20% that people may not find worth the time to target.

There is one more point to take note though, on why people do not use IM-style sales letters. Its just a personal style, and their beliefs. They may also be appealing to the other 20% of the people, which simply appears to us as "non-IM style"

Hope this helps!

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Kierkegaard

14 years ago

You still get long sales letters in magazines. Take Private Eye* in the UK (Private Eye | Official Site) they often run full page sales letters. Probably the best example, as any current Eye reader will easily recognize, is the long running Mr. Daswani's A Fitting End To The Ill-Fitting British Suit.

I've read his sales letters myself, several times.

They work because people buy magazines to read them. Once they've read all the articles they want to read, they read the one's they weren't particularly interested in. Then they read the sales letters and glance through the classified ads.

Often the long sales letters are more interesting that the regular articles you're not particularly interested in. This, I suspect, is because the article writers assume readers are already interested whereas the copy writers do everything they can to grab attention.

*More low-brow readers can think of the long running Mr. Memory Ads in Viz.

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Michael Daniels

14 years ago

Sales pages mean something to some and nothing to others.. some of the psychology that goes into making them works but at times others are turned off by "this" or "that". We can't assume that they use that particular method because it "works". It might be the worst thing for their business. "who knows?".. it takes testing and practice to see what works for your particular common visitor.

Alot of testing.. but one thing is for sure if your website gets a huge amount of traffic, it really doesn't matter either way.

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Daniel Harper

14 years ago

I guess I'll take down my long form sale page.

Josh from the Warrior Forum doesn't like it.

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dagaul101

14 years ago

I think for software developers they are targetting a different audience, who already know what they need, rather than the generic sales copy associated with IM

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Scott Kennedy

14 years ago

The majority of people outside the IM arena who try to promote products are copywriters.

The majority of people inside the IM arena who try to promote products are "copy" writers.

Good copy is good copy, no matter what form it comes in. Unfortunately those in the IM niche see long winded sales pages with crazy bold text and non pausable videos and think "Hey! if this guy does it like this, maybe I should too!".

And thus you have a whole bunch of crappy sale/squeeze pages written by people who pretty much just copy and paste a template because it's the "norm".

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AverageGuy

14 years ago

so called "Squeeze Page" are everywhere. many of them are not even being noticed by visitors. you do not want people feel you are selling, you want to be a friend of your visitors,

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ghostrecon

14 years ago

It really depends on the product as well. I've seen a few companies employ a number different strategies which in part also include things like sales pages and 'squeeze' videos.

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Ansar Pasha

Banned 14 years ago

Is the horse dead yet?

Seriously, you think "long copy" doesn't work outside IM... what about the countless weight loss products, dating products, golf products?

... if you don't know what you're talking about, don't act like you do.

Direct response principles have been tested over many, many years... and salesmanship at its core, has existed since the beginning of time.

What I'm saying is this: If it ain't broke, don't fix it!

Ansar

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Why is it that outside of IM, I never encountered a Squeeze Page?

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