Is IM a dirty business?

Great post!

Firstly, there are a whole lot of "jobs" within IM..

A lot of people are ethical and a lot of people are unethical.

With so much of this industry saturated (to a closed minded person), it is easy for internet marketers to make one desperate last attempt at redeeming their money back from all those WSOs and products that didn't get them anywhere by selling what they know sells hot.. "make money online" products...

People who make money by selling make money products and the like are extremely unethical and give a bad name to internet marketers.

It's the old story of a forum post:

Anyway...

There are tons of ways to build a "real" and "ethical" business online.

Personally I found that I am very savvy with Search Engine Optimization (SEO). That is my love and have built my business around it.

I ensure that my business uses ethical practices to rank pages and I closely monitor and improve on success. That is my idea of an ethical business.

You could build a "real" business around creating websites, writing code, writing blog content, making sales videos, making premium wordpress themes, promoting products as an affiliate. etc.

It's all about how you do it and how serious you are about it.

My main idea of an ethical business is the business owners intent... if they intend to build a successful and fulfilling business it is ethical, if they are just in it to make a buck it could be ethical and borderline scamming.

Cheers,
Dave

Its all up to you my friend.

If you do things with the purpose of adding value, helping other people and bringing light to their lives you aren't doing something dirty...

If you are into making money on the pain and suffering of other people then that's something else.

In the end of the day YOU are the person who should take responsibility on your actions and how you do what you do.

Its easy to sit on the fence and say that IM is Dirty, so take a plunge and find your own way to do things if you think what other people are doing is wrong.

If you will feel guilty about what you're doing you won't succeed.

So find ways to do things from your heart.

Now whats left is to find those things.

Good luck with your journey and welcome to the warrior forum.

Ari F

Hy. AT first you must understand whats the IM is? Its a huge area. And I am agree with you that there are so many unethical thins involve. But there are lots of real people out there who provide value.

So we can't blame IM for some fake marketers(!!??).
Thanks

I have not seen a "clean" business in my entire life, all types business seems to have one goal:

Haha, you got the point and struck the nerve!
The answer is - absolutely.

Why don't you actually sell something which is worth its cost? Rather than worthless stuff.

Sam

Of course it's a real business, there's people who make real good living from Internet Marketing and for trying to make people buy worthless stuff well it's up to you what stuff you decide to promote so if you decide to provide people with crappy products then that's entirely your choice and your problem.

The internet redefined what it meant to be a businessman. Ultimately, this is no different than setting up a physical store front dedicated to health products and selling those. Instead, we use virtual websites, affiliate programs and eBooks. Same difference.

Additionally, this definitely has the potential to become a 'real job' if not more than that. It gives you the same (or greater amounts of income) with lots of flexibility. Any business has its ethical code which people choose to follow or not so there is nothing to say that this is any dirtier than cold callers ringing you, offering insurance/loans etc.

Great question

As others have mentioned, IM is such a broad term, and covers all kinds of professions from article writing and seo services to product launch "gurus" and "run-away-with-your-money-before-you-can-say-refund" scammers.

I'd say that WF is a place where a high percantage of people are genuine about their IM and strive to provide value and build sustainable businesses as opposed to getting-rich-quick.

It's just one of many ways to do IM.

How about creating hundreds of sites and videos with valuable content that provides great value to the visitors and makes them want to get more from you, and even purchase something after having started to trust/bond with you? Better, eh

Very well put, Afreidman!

A great quote springs to mind:

letsgetstarted, as you continue with your IM journey your own morals and ethics will guide you down the right path.

I believe that by offering a 100% money back guarantee on all of my information products, the customer decides if the value of the information is worth the price paid. I use Clickbank and my refund rate is less than 2% so I have no problem with sleeping at night.

However, my son has friends who believe that it is unethical to produce a digital document and sell it thousands of times at $27. I have tried to explain that the customers get a full refund, no questions asked if they request it from me (or Clickbank) and that the information is guaranteed to save the buyer hundreds of dollars... But, they still believe it's unethical.

I think it's more a case of not understanding the business...

Cheers
Ian McConnell

Wow, seriously? Great post, but what I see right off the bat is that you need to be able to change your mindset, not just about Internet Marketing but about Business as a whole. Being a business person, ONE of the main priorities is to be profitable, otherwise why get into business, or to take it to another level, why even work? So mindset must be changed in order to succeed in business, whether it's internet marketing or not.

All money is not dirty business. If you see money as dirty business, you won't be getting much of it. But if you see money as a tool, something that makes life a little easier, something that can change your situation, the people around you, etc., then you'll start getting more of it. The only thing that will make money dirty business is YOU, the person holding the money.

So if you think that all Internet Marketing is an easy way, or dirty way of making a living, it'll be that way for you. But if you believe it can be a great business that truly adds value to other people, then that's what it'll be for you.

Got me thinking how different is it to the make-up adverts that use false eyelashes to sell mascara... the razors for shaving that constantly come out (and cost a fortune)... and the amount of insurance sold to people who don't necessarily need it.

I think there are more cynics online in the IM niche because they see and are educated to what is going on. But I'm not so sure the offline world is so very different... albeit a little more regulated.

Last weekend I was watching a new toothpaste launch. The small text said 82% of 29 people reported their teeth as being one shade whiter by the end of a week.

Hardly a significant number of people but it was obviously ok to run with and a nice new marketing angle.

I doubt many people notice or even care because they'd be prepared to take a punt on the new toothpaste if it got their teeth one shade whiter (even though good old bicarbonate of soda and cutting your caffine would probably have a greater effect).

I think the frustration is that old skool strategies are what work but buying new products and systems is so much more fun and entertaining.

wait guys all fo you think that im is not legal or it is dirty??? why??

IM isn't a dirty business but unfortunately it has become dirty because some of the people who's attitudes are stinking.

As a famous anonymous Sage once said... "One Man's Trash is another Man's Treasure."

I build websites and mobile sites for people for a living. I also sell domains. Have a couple of info products that have nothing to do with a secret "method" to rake in cash by the thousands.

How is that dirty? There are a lot of people here who have real businesses. And I've been doing it full time for over 12 years. That DOES make it a REAL JOB. And yes, I am proud of my products.

I agree that any business is not "clean". The main objective of a business is to make money. On the sidelines we have helping people.

Great post! There are unethical and ethical people in all businesses not just the IM industry. If you can provide a difference and be unique and be helpful that's where you will stand out from the rest and grow, be consistent and persistent and build relationships in your niche. Most businesses fail because they don't care about support or long term aspects, they want a quick buck so they fail quickly, as the saying goes, easy come easy go. Good luck on your journey!

Right and wrong is subjective just as what is considered "dirty" can be subjective also. It seems as if the general consensus is more conservative in their methods and techniques when it comes to IM. Anything outside of that is considered "dirty". Personally, I think that "dirty" is anything illegal. Certain things can be done that are against policies but are not necessarily illegal....is that dirty? To the conservatives, yes. But to those that know how to really "get it"....if something works, it works.

Again, agreed with most people in the thread. It is subjective and there are always unethical things in everything. I believe though if you sell a product that actually WORKS that you have tried out yourself then you are only helping people out that are looking for what you are offering.

Well, the major issue here is that you are prejudiced against web sites that sell stuff. So let's look at the reality of internet marketing.

My friend Chris Yates has a site where he sells poop signs.

OH MY GOD IT'S THE POOP SIGN

For $10, you can get an 8" aluminum sign that looks like a stop sign but it says "poop." Chris invented this. He is the brilliant artistic mind that realised an 8" aluminum sign that looks like a stop sign but says 'poop' would be pretty much the best thing ever. He's the one in the middle.

You may think this is worthless, but I think it is pretty much the best thing ever, so I bought one. You can see me holding it up on my Facebook profile picture, because I'm immature that way. Here's a somewhat larger version of my FB profile picture where you can actually tell I didn't iron my shirt that day, primarily because I was so excited to have finally gotten my poop sign and couldn't wait to take a picture of it. Plus, I'm totally flipping you off.


I also have an affiliate link to Topatoco, which pays me almost a dollar when someone buys a poop sign through it.

TopatoCo: Poop Sign

Now, my strategy for selling a poop sign is to say "Holy crap, it's the poop sign. It's like a stop sign, but it says 'poop.' It is pretty much the best thing ever." This is very much like the sales approach Chris uses on his own site, because I happen to agree with him. And then I put up my affiliate link.

This is not going to make anyone buy anything. They will buy a poop sign if they agree that yes, it is the best thing ever, and they want one of their very own... in fact, that they want it somewhat more than they want that silly old $10.

What can you do with $10, anyway? Buy a couple of coffees at Scarbutt's? Who cares! This is like a stop sign, but it says "poop." That is pretty much the best thing ever.

Once they have it, well, it's an 8" aluminum sign that is like a stop sign but it says "poop." It's about as useful as... um... well, any other sign. You can hang it up. Or carry it around. Or show it to people. That's about it.

And if you buy it through my affiliate link, I'll get like 70 cents. I sell about two a month. That's not much of an income. And it's not much of an income for Chris, either.

But if I make hundreds of sites like this (presumably for different products, but retaining the average performance of two sales a month at 70 cents per sale), I'll make hundreds of dollars a month. Thousands, if I put more than one product on each of them.

Where people get into trouble is when they try to make this "efficient." They want to make ten sites a day, for example. Or have an income of $X per month by this-and-that date. Or they only promote products that pay $X or more in commission. Or they want to be on the first page of Google for their niche.

What this leads to is people going "the poop sign just is not all that popular," and instead they go "ooh, yoga mats, those are popular and OMFG look how much I get paid every time I sell one."

Notice the complete lack of anything like "these are f!#king awesome and everyone should buy one." The decision was not made because the product was good and they believed in it, but because it would make them money.

That's where things start to get "dirty" on you. Because when you stop thinking about the people who buy from you, you start making stupid decisions about what to sell and why. Efficiency is bad for people you care about. The last thing your friends or family want is to be treated with efficiency: to have maximum value extracted from them with minimal effort in the shortest time possible.

Do not trust anyone who says IM is a "numbers game." Among other things, they do not care about you or your business. They care even less about their customers, and if they are trying to sell you something, they are actively trying to care less about you.

I didn't read all the responses and I'm almost sure this has been mentioned but here goes anyway.

IM is as clean or dirty as you make it. Most people see this as a business with the business model being that they provide quality products and services and offer great customer support. They are in it for the long haul and strive to build lasting relationships with their customers.

A much smaller faction does exactly the opposite. They operate by spamming and other hit and run tactics. They sometimes steal the work of others and call it thier own. There is literally no end to what they might do to get the fast buck. Fortunately, these people are not the majority in IM.

They sometimes appear to be the norm because they get so much of the attention while others quietly go about the business of providing value. The fast buck crowd also attracts the attention of the regulators and others who are always placing more and more restrictions on the entire marketplace because of their nonsense. This hurts everyone. It also gives people who don't know better the impression that the whole industry is crooked. It's not.

That's how it goes. If you're looking to get into marketing online you can align yourself with one crowd or the other. Good luck.

mmm..

I registered at clickbank. And I just chosed randomly a product. It was fullmovies.com The site looks like a big scam. Pretent they have the lastest movies, while people on forums say they only have very old ones. Also when I google for other people that are selling fullmovie tickets I see them with a copy past of the orginal site. And then saying to people, they have to click on the link on there site because other ones can be fake copy's. What the hell, its so obvious, THAT is a dirty business. The whole fullmovies.com site does alarm bells rining in my head.

Is this just bad luck on my side?

If you sell goods and services that people want and that actually
help to improve their lives in some way, then internet marketing,
or any type of sales is very honorable.

Sales people who sell things that they don't believe will eventually
burn out.

Also, selling isn't about tricking people into buying things that they
know that they don't want. It is about helping them to see that
your product is a solution to their problem... and there are people
out there who would sell anything to anybody, regardless of whether
it works or not. I don't believe that those people are in the
majority.

Willie

In My opinion, this is how life in general works.... The internet as a whole (irrespective of how you make your online money) is based on the structures and business practices that have worked since the dawn of time. There are Dirty businesses offline and on. Dirty businesses in the IM niche as well as every niche online.

The beauty is this. If there is so much rubbish out there then that leaves a small gap for you to offer something of value. Something customers will love you for

Rich

Well before moving to marketing you need to know if you have what it takes. Do you think the marketing company working for Marlboro, for example, should refuse a campaign because is bad for the health, etc. etc.???

The same question you should ask on the microniches you are mentioning. Is up to you to decide where is that line.

DH

its all about how you roll in the internet marketing world. You can either choose to roll with those bad guys that don't care about their customers and make crappy products that don't work. Or you can choose to be friends with those who have integrity and care about their customers success, its all down to you my friend

I know a lot of sales pages look scammy, but there are some great products under some of those pages.

Some people (like my wife) are still convinced that IM is a huge scam.

Even when I tell her that you can promote other things besides MMO products (maybe you can promote treadmills for example), she says something like "if you havent tried the treadmill, how do you know how good it is? Why would I buy it from your site?"

Bottom line is- some people are always going to think the internet is just scammy, not a legitimate business, etc.

But the truth of the matter is that you can market very legit, life-changing stuff and make a difference AND earn money at the same time.

Plus when I think of business models like Mary Kay or MLM where you're basically exploiting friendships and relationiships for money- that's jacked up.

(I know thats not the only way to do it, but when your wife gets invited to a Mary Kay party by a friend, its tough to say no even though she KNOWS she'll be sold to)

To answer your question: that depends entirely on you. There is more to IM than making a fast buck, or for that matter, IM itself as a niche. Its only one of several niches that Internet Marketers operate in.

I think the IM niche takes the most fire because its the most visible among any niches that anyone involved in internet marketing will deal with, and where you get to see the best & worst of it, and everything in between. Its unfortunate, but the worst of it is what makes the biggest impression. Which is also unfair to those in the IM niche who have nothing in common with the low grade IM niche operators.

Either way, whatever niche you go into it, YOU decide whether or not its a dirty business, and nobody else. That's the real beauty of IM: you're in control, its your baby, and you determine the rules you play by.

Those rules, the type of content you develop, how you choose, market, and sell your product, and how you regard and treat your customers will determine whether its a dirty business or not.

My approach is really very simple, although there's a lot of technical things involved which aren't so simple. Develop your website, and every aspect of it (including layout, content, your list and how you use it, etc) with basic questions in mind which all address the same essential ingredient: does the look and layout of my site mesh with what a customer coming here will hope to find? Does my content provide value which will not only keep them interested and provide some solution, but make them want more of it? Were I the customer, would I be satisfied with the product I'm selling at the price being asked for to the degree that I would buy again from you? Am I mailing those on my list so frequently that rather than look forward to reading my e-mail, they'll delete it unread or mark it as spam? Does my e-mail plant in the customer's mind that I have their interests at heart and value them, or is it impersonal and a monologue instead of an attempt to create a dialogue? Am I providing them with the useful information in my e-mail, such that they'll want to buy any product I link in it, or does it come off as an empty sales pitch?

Your answers to those kinds of questions, and yours alone, define exactly what kind of marketer you are. And nothing else - not the niche your in, nor its sub-niche.

-Spyder

If you're selling junk at inflated prices and treating customers poorly, then you would be contributing to the poor image IM has. Instead, if you provide good value for products that help people, then you are are a part of the solution, not the problem.

Along with the harsh reality of the previous posts, the marketing industry is just inherently like that. But even deeper, the whole of consumerism is about selling things people don't want to those who have disposable income. It really starts to get shady and morally wrong when you are taking advantage of feelings or when it is misleading as a necessity and therefor negates the disposable income aspect. Some companies have ethics, some do not...that is up to the regulators to do something about...meanwhile its their world, we just play in it.

If you feel wrong about it then maybe marketing is not the career choice for you.

And there is nothing wrong with that.

However, I will say that what seems worthless to YOU may not be to others. I personally find those "self motivation" products to be a serious waste of time. But obviously others find great value because its a huge industry/niche.

As I said, maybe marketing isn't for you. It's what we do. We promote things, products, and services. The marketing industry hasn't really changed all that much over the years, but the platforms and channels most definitely have.

Name one business that is clean through out. These threads are boring.

To be honest I don't think you could understand it unless you were in it. And it's not too far from the commercial you watch on TV.... excepts WAY MORE opportunity to earn WAY MORE money. Don't knock it til you try it.

It's only as dirty as you are...

James

IM, like most things, is as dirty as your conscience allows.

Is roofing a dirty business? Well, the guy who encouraged me to cheat my insurer and offered to certify non-existent wind damage sure was dirty.

The contractor that I actually hired wasn't.

The stock broker who pushes whatever his company is trying to unload on lower end customers certainly is dirty.

The financial adviser who my wife works for isn't.

I think you get the idea.

It's like anything else, there are people who take shortcuts and have no problem ripping people off, and there are people who sincerely want to provide value and make an honest buck.

You get a lot more scammers in IM, though, than in real life because of 1) The anonymous nature of the internet and 2) A lot of the get-rich-quick type products play to a desperate-for-answers crowd.

I think you're taking one small part of Internet marketing and assuming it represents the entire industry.

Here are my 4 concerns :-

1) There are good product in the IM business, but there is also a dark side filled with scams and crap out there.

2) Most people are losing their jobs with the economy the way it is, and some fly by nighters are taking advantage of those looking to make money online.

3) There are scammers putting a bad name on the legitimate sellers in the IM game.

4) The dirty side of IM will get worse when the US does actaully collapse (which is in the process of happening now) When people get desperate they will do anything to pay the bills.

Just my 2 cents.

Compared to porn, stripping or drug dealing, being involved in Internet marketing really isn't THAT bad.