I have a question?

But how realistic is that for the average Joe buying products on this forum?

Nope. $400 a day with 5 minutes work. We talked about this last night.

We've also talked at many times in the past about how "doing the math" doesn't work.

If I get paid $25 an hour, I don't get paid $600 a day because there are 24 hours in a day. I don't work 24 hours a day. I can't work 24 hours a day. It's not possible.

Similarly, just because I can do something in 5 minutes that will return a $400 profit in 24 hours, that does not mean I can do it twelve times in an hour. In fact, it doesn't even mean I can do it every day.

There are a lot of methods out there which take only a little work to get rolling, but need a day or a week or even a month to generate any income - and they just plain can't be done over and over again.

In fact, a lot of the stuff you see in WSOs will work precisely once for the average person who actually does it. And that's what the WSO vendor is saying - he did it once, it worked, you could probably do what he did and you'd probably get what he got.

That's not my idea of a good product, but it's not a fraud or a scam or a lie. It's just one business owner to another. If you played golf with that vendor, or were on the same private forums, or hung out in the same bars, you could probably get that advice for free. But since you're not, you have to pay $5. Not a lot of money, really.

I am, of course, assuming that the vendor of these WSOs is honest. Because in my experience, the overwhelming majority of them are.

And that's really what pisses me off about the furor surrounding these two WSOs... neither you nor Chris Worner have actually checked out these WSOs. You're complaining because you think the vendor is lying, but you have absolutely no evidence of that.

And yes, most WSOs are garbage. But they're not garbage because the vendor is scum. They're garbage because the vendor is lazy, sloppy, or just plain wrong.

You know, like most human beings. Like the person who "does the math" on a headline without paying too much attention to it or really caring whether he's accurately portraying the product in question, let alone if he's unfairly trashing a fellow marketer for no good reason.

ANYTHING that misleads newbies is my flavor of the week WillDL.

And I totally agree Paul. There is value in the WSO forum but the problem that I see most is people teaching newbies that, yea there is an easy way to make money just re-purpose some PLR and put up a WSO and sit back and watch your paypal.

Now granted that falls on the people buying this stuff too looking for the easy out, push button solution, etc. But still there are serious people out there that are looking to REALLY make money using the internet, freelancing, or internet marketing, etc.

I know people think I'm different because I actually care about the success of newbies instead of my bottom line but that because I take pride in what I teach and I want EVERYONE of my students to make it.

That's why I'm not very big on WSO for the majority of the part.

Now Caliban has spoke of James, and some of his other products, and that's fine. I understand some people can make a product work and some can't. But the outrageous claims is my main grip.

I did purchase the product and have read it, but I'm not going to post a review of it because someone else already did in the actual thread and it was deleted. My review probably would go along the same lines.

And I agree George about what you say with the names that don't have WSO's. As for my signature, yes I have a course. No it's not open to everybody for the simple fact that I offer ABSOLUTELY NO REFUND and it's clearly stated in my terms and the sales video. Therefore, no one from WF, or any other IM forum for that matter, will sign up and that's fine. I said it plenty of time over and over, the course isn't my main income and I could do without if need be.

And no I'm not showing my 'sanctimonious' attitude just answering a question about my signature.

And actually I have removed my signature just to stop all the confusion and any thoughts that I might be two faced about my opinions but yet still offering a course for newbies.

It started out as a private course and I believe that's what it's going to go back too.

OK, I'll bite.

First off Legend Dude, I'll review the product just for you. I just bought it and I'll read it and PM you my thoughts. However, It is currently under $5 and comes with a money back guarantee. This fits the criteria I mentioned above for giving it a try. Not much risk at all.

Anyway you will hear from me within 24 hrs. Off to spend Sunday with my family now. See ya soon.

George Wright

Team X, I'd like to know this, too. We hear people all the time claiming that negative reviews aren't allowed, and yet the section has tons of them. They stick because they're from people who've paid for the product and posted according to the rules.

I wonder if Lonnie thinks it's a problem to delete reviews that accuse the poster of being a thieving scammer because the person posting thinks s/he's seen the ideas before? Or who bought, immediately refunded, and posted a nasty review of a 6-hour video course 15 minutes after ordering. (Yeah. That happened.)

On the notion that telling too much of the idea is frowned on... Sometimes that's a problem, but not as often as sellers seem to think. We have had more than one person howling that the buyer was "giving away the method," when the only reference in the post was to a free service. Just the URL.

Sorry, folks. If your offer is so lame and thin that publicly mentioning a single URL kills it, it deserves to be dead.

Oh yeah... Giving a customer a refund does not mean we'll delete a legitimate review. And for the people who like to play the sabotage game, keep in mind that "Gimme my money back!" is not a review.

Lonnie,

Where can I get one of those clue-resistant hoodies?


Paul

You should try to leave your review.

Does the product deliver what the sales letter promises? That is the main point to cover.

Reviews are not automatically removed because they are negative. If you can back up why your negative points are justified and the review is not an attack on the product creator but just a review of the product then it should stick.

Actually espe,

It will take WF members like you to turn things around. I was saying yesterday in chat that the WSO section is heading down a future path of when someone mentions a WSO people are just going to shrug their heads and say "No Thanks, haven't really heard much of anything good in regards to WSO's".

It's not ALL WSO's at the moment, at least in my opinion, it's just the majority meaning that there are good ones there just outnumbered. There is nothing saying that those numbers can't change; but it will take the people that are putting out WSO's to take a little more pride in what their putting out.

I understand that it's all the so called "Guru's" who are putting out ebooks, courses, etc on "How To Make A Killing Selling WSO's", and these are being marketed to people who are just starting out because the WSO section is such easy money.

Go ahead, continue working on putting out your WSO, just make sure it's something that is worth something. That it's actually helping someone other than you and people will respect you for it and continue buying your products. The WSO forum needs this kind of attention and to help gain the respect that it use to have.

Granted the above is my opinion and doesn't reflect the actual value of the WSO forum to people purchasing it's products or the attitude of the product creators. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and naturally I have mine.

Lonnie,

I'm not looking for an apology. Your opinion is based on your experience, and is what it is. I was looking for the statistical basis for the statement, if any. 132 WSOs over a 1-year period is a pretty good sample, if somewhat biased by your purchasing habits.

The interesting thing is that my purchases in there are at about the same level over a year, give or take a few. Leaving out offers I've purchased to check on the validity of reported problems, I'd say better than 90% of it has been at least worth the investment. A few have been extreme value for the money spent.

I've also found there the first few products that even I can't extract enough ideas or techniques from to have been worth what was being asked. A product has to really suck for that to be the case.

Different objectives and criteria is the thing.

When we look at what "bad" offers do, it comes down to who's buying them. For someone with experience, they're a very small loss compared to the benefits of the good ones. We know enough to not chase things that will end up wasting time.

For the really new person, even the cheap $7 reports can chew up enough time and motivation (if they really don't work) to discourage them from keeping on. To me, that's the main risk.

The expensive stuff that ends up being worthless, or that simply doesn't get delivered, is another story. Bigger abuse, smaller group. The answer to that one is easy: Don't invest what you can't afford to lose. Especially with a new member.

I think it's irresponsible to label a "majority" of the offers there as problems, without at least qualifying the statement to your own experience. That said, I think it would be just as irresponsible to pretend there aren't some bad offers in the mix. There are. We do what we can when they're reported, but a surprisingly small number are.

Example: We got a report about someone not honoring their refund policy this week. I went in and looked, and there were at least a dozen complaints about the product not being as advertised. The OP had not logged in for at least a week, all that was going on, and only one person bothered to bring it to the moderators' attention.

5 minutes later, that offer was closed and the seller was contacted.

One of the people complaining was griping about the mods not doing anything to fix the problem, yet he had never reported it. Another had posted early on that he was buying, but his review (more of a warning to stay away) was buried half way down page 3. He could as easily have edited his first post to include the review.

The moderators can only do so much. "Crappy product" is not a basis for deleting an offer. Far too subjective a measurement. The members have much more control over the general theme and quality of the offerings, based on their own buying and commenting decisions.

Want to know the worst advice you can give people if you want to improve the tone of that section? "I won't bother posting a negative review because it will just be deleted."

That's not true, as long as you stay within the very reasonable limits for reviews, and it encourages the marginal producers and outright scammers to keep on keeping on.

When you say things like that, you help to perpetuate the problem. Which just ensures you'll have a podium from which to preach next year, rather than actually helping the new folks you want to defend.


Paul