Bought a WSO that claimed to be closing in few weeks, now it's not, fair?

14 years ago

If someone says something they should stick to it as it shows they are credible, by not doing it I feel they lose instant credability.

Bit like on Clickbank where they have that little red counter that says download link will expire in 1 Hours (when its up for weeks lol)

Laughable really and they would be better putting a notice like

I THINK YOU ARE A SUCKER AND WILL FALL FOR THIS

Kinda insulting really

kickin it on Amazon

Gaz Cooper
Amz Training Academy

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Matt Briggs 14 years ago

Maybe they just extended the opening time for a few more sales before closing it? It happens sometimes when the demand for that particular WSO is high..
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- Marx Vergel Melencio 14 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Jeff Whiz
  
  Maybe they just extended the opening time for a few more sales before closing it? It happens sometimes when the demand for that particular WSO is high..
  
  What then are your opinions about sellers who:
  
  •Guarantee a limited sales period or a limited number of products sold which can be perceived by possible buyers as among the most beneficial features of the product, enough for them to buy it, though the sellers don't keep their end of the deal regarding this limited sales period or limited number of products sold...
  
  •Inform their buyers that it'll be taken down real soon after a few buyers ask about them keeping their end of the deal about the limited sales period or number of products sold, though the sellers don't comply even after several months...
  
  •Give answers to buyer questions of why the product has yet to be taken down several months after the supposed end of the limited sales period or number of products sold, like "We overlooked it, and it's our decision to keep it running, thank you..." and "It's shallow thinking if you believe that the market will be saturated..." and "We decided to keep it running for the benefit of the greater good since doing this will mean more people will be able to benefit from it..." and "Compensated or let know of? No..."?
  
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fitz10

14 years ago

Unethical, yes. In my opinion, it's just good business to stick to your word. There isn't anything illegal about it though. Overall, it just represents a really poor business model on behalf of the product owner. He/she probably lost a lot of credibility from this mistake.

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rosetrees

14 years ago

Originally Posted by fitz10

..... There isn't anything illegal about it though.

I'm not sure the FTC would see it that way.

..... Clearly it's not being offered elsewhere publicly at a higher price. ....... More importantly, that the price or something else about the offer makes it significantly better than what can be had if purchased outside the WF.

The most under-enforced rule here on this forum. I guess Paul just doesn't have the time to do it.

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WillR

14 years ago

In short I do NOT think that type of behaviour is fair and I think you should report it to the moderators. If they are willing to deceive people on that basis then it means they are probably also willing to deceive in other parts as well.

I remember seeing a banner ad running on this forum that kept saying... Today Only... yet the deal kept running for weeks and weeks. Their (WSO owners) excuse was it was too hard to change the banner over... yeah right! It doesn't matter how hard it is to change the banner over... it's no excuse for blatant lies.

Originally Posted by fitz10

Unethical, yes. In my opinion, it's just good business to stick to your word. There isn't anything illegal about it though.

I'm not 100% sure about that. If you are purchasing a product based on the promises given by the seller and they then break those promises, is that not illegal or at the very least, intentional deception? You do have the right to ask for your money back in that situation - even if they offer no refund policy.

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Gaz Cooper

14 years ago

Originally Posted by WillR

In short I do NOT think that type of behaviour is fair and I think you should report it to the moderators. If they are willing to deceive people on that basis then it means they are probably also willing to deceive in other parts as well.

Looks like the Mods are already aware since they censored the OP's original post.

Its deceit plain and simple and whomever it was should send a big thank you to the MODS here because if they did allow the product to be identified I for one would never beleive or give any credability to this marketer as its clear he is deceiving and lying to his customers.

You only have one reputation you should protect it at all costs and being honest really is not that difficult.

kickin it on Amazon

Gaz Cooper
Amz Training Academy

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thedog

14 years ago

Originally Posted by GazCooperOnline

Looks like the Mods are already aware since they censored the OP's original post.

Its deceit plain and simple and whomever it was should send a big thank you to the MODS here because if they did allow the product to be identified I for one would never beleive or give any credability to this marketer as its clear he is deceiving and lying to his customers.

You only have one reputation you should protect it at all costs and being honest really is not that difficult.

kickin it on Amazon

Gaz Cooper
Amz Training Academy

Just noticed that Gaz... I never named anyone?

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Ken Strong 14 years ago

Originally Posted by GazCooperOnline

Looks like the Mods are already aware since they censored the OP's original post.

No -- the details were pretty vague. But this isn't the place to review WSOs, positively or negatively. We don't need to know the exact WSO to discuss the topic.
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fitz10

14 years ago

Originally Posted by WillR

I'm not 100% sure about that. If you are purchasing a product based on the promises given by the seller and they then break those promises, is that not illegal or at the very least, intentional deception? You do have the right to ask for your money back in that situation - even if they offer no refund policy.

I'm not 100% sure either to be honest. I do agree that if the OP feels taken advantage of he/she has the right to ask for a refund. Unfortunately though this is not an uncommon tactic to see in the IM world.

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radhika

14 years ago

Welcome to IM World

To start with, these are different type of tactics sellers use to push sales up or to urge the buyers to buy something.

Don't stress yourself too much on this.

.

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Tina Golden 14 years ago

I don't see anything unfair about it. You get the same information whether it was open for 2 weeks or forever.

The only way that I would see this as a breach of the terms of the sale would be if the product had rights that were promised to be limited.

However, that doesn't mean that I think it's right for the seller to go back on their word. I very likely would not buy anything from them again.
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thedog 14 years ago

Cheers for the feedback. Yes, I'm well aware of all the gimicks out there to get people to buy, telling people the offer will end at midnight etc...

The difference is, this was from a well known warrior, and one that has lots of good references.

When I confronted him about it he said I didn't want to give everyone else the same chance! And the course has probably paid for it's self.

Not going to stress about it, was just wondering if it was common practice, on this forum.
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thegabrieljibril

Banned 14 years ago

[DELETED]

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Tsnyder

14 years ago

Originally Posted by thegabrieljibril

Wait a minute. Are we really focusing on whether or not the wso is open or not? Or whether the wso actually delivers. If a wso is working for a lot of people and the owner decides to let it run, i see nothing bad about it.

The important issue is if there is value in the wso.

Nonsense... the important thing is to be able to know
that, as a Warrior Forum member, you can buy in complete
confidence knowing that the seller has integrity and stands
up to what they say.

Saying that an offer will close after a specified time is no
different than saying you will only sell 100 copies. Going
beyond either is a false scarcity tactic that should not be
condoned by anyone on this forum.

Anyone who believes this seller's motivation is making sure
everyone gets the same benefit and opportunity is hopelessly
naive.

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fluffythewondercat

14 years ago

This is a great topic. I'm bookmarking it. At my fingertips I'll have a reference for who thinks lying is perfectly fine as well as those with integrity who are appropriately aghast.

Sometimes it's hard to know who to trust on WF but not today.

fLufF
--

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robertahill

14 years ago

Originally Posted by fluffythewondercat

This is a great topic. I'm bookmarking it. At my fingertips I'll have a reference for who thinks lying is perfectly fine as well as those with integrity who are appropriately aghast.

Sometimes it's hard to know who to trust on WF but not today.

fLufF
--

I feel the same way - what a great reference. "Sometimes it's hard to know who to trust on WF but not today." Amen.

"Legality" is based on the relevant law but ethics is often more vague. It is the conversations here that really determine one's integrity and it is great to be able to determine who shares my values and who doesn't.

Admitting wrong versus an "error" or "oversight" would go a long way to getting my trust back. Fixing an oversight would be even better.

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salegurus 14 years ago

Originally Posted by Tsnyder

Anyone who believes this seller's motivation is making sure
everyone gets the same benefit and opportunity is hopelessly
naive.

LOL, yeah i'm breaking a promise i made to make sure everybody gets a chance to get my WSO, all the while my Paypal account is getting fatter. :rolleyes:
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Jesus Perez

14 years ago

This happens all the time. Scarcity is employed to generate sales during launch due to insecurity about their product's potential success. Then, when sales take off, these product owners "extend" sales in an attempt to milk the cow as long as possible. They usually tell you "people are complaining" and reopen the doors for another 100 sales. This may be true, but once people catch on, irreparable damage is done to their reputation.

There are plenty of marketers (Chris Rempel, Jimmy Brown come to mind) that stick to their promises and when they say "24 hours only" or "300 copies", they mean it. In the long run, keeping your word works far better than short-term gains.

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Joe Benjamin

14 years ago

I have a question...

Is it *WRONG* to give others the opportunity to buy a
product that COULD make some difference in their life?

...or is it equally wrong to SAY you're limiting a number
of copies or stopping sales of a product and continue
selling it anyways?

It's a polarizing situation - because those who make it
BEFORE the time limit or before xxx number of copies
are sold - are GENERALLY the ones who complain (and
rightfully so).

...on the flip side, those who make it AFTER designated
end date are *ecstatic*. THEY feel lucky it's still on sale
and are GRATEFUL it's still being sold.

So who's right...and who's wrong?

But MY challenge to the OP and all those who think this
person is *morally wrong*...

why does it bother you so much?

Is it more important you spend your time asking WHY a
product owner is selling more than he promised, who is,
theoretically serving more people?

Or...

is your time better spent APPLYING or DOING what you
purchased?

Before you answer those questions...

I do NOT condone the behavior or false scarcity . And, if
it makes you feel better - don't buy from them again.

...but painting a BROAD picture saying, "If he or she is
lying about THIS, chances are they will lie about any-
thing..." is simply unfair.

This guy is not some *criminal* out to get your money,
but he DID make a bad judgement call and MAY have to
suffer the consequences to his reputation.

...and so be it.

In business people make bad calls like this all the time,
it's just part of it. Even with good intentions you can still
be misunderstood...

I don't know anyone who has done business on a large
scale who has NOT made bad judgement calls.

Some offenses are obviously much WORST than others
(Enron).

But in most cases they are minor and can be overcome if
the marketer is willing to overcome it and rectify it.

Other than that there's nothing much YOU can do, except
apply the information you PURCHASED (if it's good), and
move forward with YOUR business.

If it helps, take the lessons you learned from him and do
NOT fall for the temptation to do what HE did to you when
you're making a good deal of money.

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thedog

14 years ago

Originally Posted by WhoIsBenjamin

But MY challenge to the OP and all those who think this
person is *morally wrong*...

why does it bother you so much?

Besides the fact that the seller didn't tell the truth, my real concern is that it devalues the product.

The course in question is extremely popular, and the sites it helps you create all pretty much look the same. Myself and others have seen many copies of the same sites during our niche research. The longer this stays up, the more copies, the less valuable it is.

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jan roos

14 years ago

Originally Posted by thedog

Besides the fact that the seller didn't tell the truth, my real concern is that it devalues the product.

The course in question is extremely popular, and the sites it helps you create all pretty much look the same. Myself and others have seen many copies of the same sites during our niche research. The longer this stays up, the more copies, the less valuable it is.

Dude it's only Amazon review sites. There are over 10 courses out there teaching and lots of them have sold a lot more copies than I have.

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WillR

14 years ago

Originally Posted by WhoIsBenjamin

...but painting a BROAD picture saying, "If he or she is lying about THIS, chances are they will lie about any-thing..." is simply unfair.

Unfair?! You gotta be joking...

Totally disagree! If someone wants to deceive you by saying they will limit the quantity and then because the money keeps rolling in they go back on their word, then that is a blatant lie.

The only reason people limit the quantity of their products in the first place is to help their product convert better and faster. If you want to use that tactic and take the extra profits that come with it then you at least have to stand by your word and remove the offer when you promised you would.

Customers are purchasing that product on the condition only x amount of copies are going to be sold. This definitely increases the perceived value of that product in the eyes of the customer. To then go back on that is no different to removing a part of that product the customer has purchased.

As far as I am concerned, if someone is willing to deceive you on that point then they are willing to deceive you in other areas as well. It just means this is the type of person who is willing to put money BEFORE morals... which tells me a LOT about that person.

As they say... once a thief always a thief.

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Paul Myers

14 years ago

We don't tell people what terms they have to offer in their WSOs, but we do expect them to live by those terms once they're set.

Additionally, if there is some real value to be had by being one of a smaller number of people who have the use of a product and you use that as an inducement to purchase, failing to limit the number sold to the stated quantity is materially deceptive.

A lot of this depends on how it's described. If someone says "I'm only selling 50 of these until I get some feedback, so I can make the product better," they're fine opening it back up later. If they say "Only 24 copies ever," they'd better not re-open it and get caught.

Dog... PM me the link to that offer, please. I want to look at it and see where it falls in that spectrum. If it looks like you're right about the decreasing value of the product with increased numbers of users, the guy won't have the option of continuing. I'll have to see the offer to form a useful opinion, though.

Personally, I think you shouldn't make promises you can't, or don't intend to, keep. People invest in your word, and lying can screw them up in a lot of ways.

Paul

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jan roos

14 years ago

Well I am very flattered that my product is so good that people want me to close it.

And btw, I was going to close it but decided not too and that is my decision and mine alone thank you very much.

You are concerned that people is going to saturate all the niches on Amazon and that you will have some competition on the search engines. I told you already that this is shallow thinking and that there are millions of keywords and lots of other ways to get traffic to your sites and you WILL always have competition no matter what niche you are in.

That's all I have to say.

Cheers

Jan

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CyberSorcerer

14 years ago

Originally Posted by jan roos

Well I am very flattered that my product is so good that people want me to close it.

And btw, I was going to close it but decided not too and that is my decision and mine alone thank you very much.

You are concerned that people is going to saturate all the niches on Amazon and that you will have some competition on the search engines. I told you already that this is shallow thinking and that there are millions of keywords and lots of other ways to get traffic to your sites and you WILL always have competition no matter what niche you are in.

That's all I have to say.

Cheers

Jan

Well personally, if I'm one of the first buyers believing that you're going to take it down and RUSHING me into purchasing before you do, then yes I am a little upset. AND, it has absolutely NOTHING to do with how much competition I'm going to have or how many niches Amazon has available or anything else.

It has to do with you pressured me into believing that there was a time limit on the availability of your product that's why I purchased; because, I believed you and took you at your word. But now I know what your word mean to you, so I won't be so quick the next time to believe what you say.

Money is money and your word is your word. Some people compromise one for the other. I guess which one depends on what type of person you are.

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Joe Benjamin

14 years ago

Originally Posted by thedog

Besides the fact that the seller didn't tell the truth, my real concern is that it devalues the product.

The course in question is extremely popular, and the sites it helps you create all pretty much look the same. Myself and others have seen many copies of the same sites during our niche research. The longer this stays up, the more copies, the less valuable it is.

I understand.

I KNOW what course you're talking about, btw (it's not
that hard to find).

It's natural. Your REAL issue isn't so much that he's sell
-ing MORE courses than promised...

you're issue comes from the BELIEF it will over-saturate
if he continues to do so.

That belief is based on fear someone else has power to
keep YOU from getting the results YOU want.

In your JUSTIFIED complaint that he's selling to many
Amazon courses...

you ALSO admit that you lack control over your own suc
-cess...

and that YOUR success is *contingent* on what OTHER
people do to get THEIR success.

In other words, *their gain, is YOUR loss*.

Because, if they're are TOO many people succeeding it's
bad news for YOU.

You have this perception that you and a bunch of other
marketers are over-flooding the system...

but your perception comes from someone (you) who is
*playing the game*.

It's SO easy to believe it's you and thousands of other
marketers using the same system - but I promise you it
is NOT the case.

It's you and a small handful of individuals out of millions
of people in the world.

...and your concern is that there are too many people
succeeding for YOU to succeed?

No judgement here. Just something to think about...

Secondly...

I appreciate you taking the time to answer THAT specific
question, but you have yet to answer THIS one I asked
as well:
Is it more important you spend your time asking WHY a
product owner is selling more than he promised, who is,
theoretically serving more people?

Or...

is your time better spent APPLYING or DOING what you
purchased?

if you're going to answer any questions, don't pick and
choose the ones convenient for you to answer.

I know it's more *comfortable* that way - heck, for all
of us. But, if you want a *true* breakthrough to move
forward in business, I would certainly respect any com
-ment you have on that question as well.

Originally Posted by WillR

Unfair?! You gotta be joking...

Totally disagree! If someone wants to deceive you by saying they will limit the quantity and then because the money keeps rolling in they go back on their word, then that is a blatant lie.

The only reason people limit the quantity of their products in the first place is to help their product convert better and faster. If you want to use that tactic and take the extra profits that come with it then you at least have to stand by your word and remove the offer when you promised you would.

As far as I am concerned, if someone is willing to deceive you on that point then they are willing to deceive you in other areas as well. It just means this is the type of person who is willing to put money BEFORE morals... which tells me a LOT about that person.

As they say... once a thief always a thief.

At first, I wasn't going to respond to this comment...

because...

It's clear you nitpicked one comment out of the rest
I made that closely resembles what you believe.

And that's *unfortunate*.

...again you *criminalize* and judge his moral being
based on a rather small and insignificant thing.

It's clear he's doing a lot more GOOD (morally) for this
forum than most people here combined.

...even me.

It has over like 100,000k viewers - it's mind-boggling,
and I tip my hat to him.

There is no WAY the man would have this kind of suc-
cess with a WSO and *get away with it* if his MORAL
character was wrong.

He would have been shut down long ago...

His decision to NOT put a limit on courses to sell has
made a significant impact in a POSITIVE way.

I'm sure it was a tough decision to decide NOT to hold
up on the original deal, but by not DOING so...

he's helped more people make their first dollar and in
some cases make 4 to figures a month.

How many people have YOU helped in this way to judge
this mans morals?

Anyways, you don't have to answer this. I know you
are not capable ofn a intelligent conversation based on
your first response...

you'll pick one or two things out THIS response, ignore
the rest, and be done with it.

And that's fine.

I can't lead a blind man to see who doesn't want to
open his eyes...and I don't care too.

It's not worth my time.

But...

hopefully this post IS of some use educational wise...

because I'm learning a lot from it.

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jan roos

14 years ago

Originally Posted by WhoIsBenjamin

I understand.

I KNOW what course you're talking about, btw (it's not
that hard to find).

It's natural. Your REAL issue isn't so much that he's sell
-ing MORE courses than promised...

you're issue comes from the BELIEF it will over-saturate
if he continues to do so.

That belief is based on fear someone else has power to
keep YOU from getting the results YOU want.

In your JUSTIFIED complaint that he's selling to many
Amazon courses...

you ALSO admit that you lack control over your own suc
-cess...

and that YOUR success is *contingent* on what OTHER
people do to get THEIR success.

In other words, *their gain, is YOUR loss*.

Because, if they're are TOO many people succeeding it's
bad news for YOU.

You have this perception that you and a bunch of other
marketers are over-flooding the system...

but your perception comes from someone (you) who is
*playing the game*.

It's SO easy to believe it's you and thousands of other
marketers using the same system - but I promise you it
is NOT the case.

It's you and a small handful of individuals out of millions
of people in the world.

...and your concern is that there are too many people
succeeding for YOU to succeed?

No judgement here. Just something to think about...

Secondly...

I appreciate you taking the time to answer THAT specific
question, but you have yet to answer THIS one I asked
as well:
Is it more important you spend your time asking WHY a
product owner is selling more than he promised, who is,
theoretically serving more people?

Or...

is your time better spent APPLYING or DOING what you
purchased?

if you're going to answer any questions, don't pick and
choose the ones convenient for you to answer.

I know it's more *comfortable* that way - heck, for all
of us. But, if you want a *true* breakthrough to move
forward in business, I would certainly respect any com
-ment you have on that question as well.

At first, I wasn't going to respond to this comment...

because...

It's clear you nitpicked one comment out of the rest
I made that closely resembles what you believe.

And that's *unfortunate*.

...again you *criminalize* and judge his moral being
based on a rather small and insignificant thing.

It's clear he's doing a lot more GOOD (morally) for this
forum than most people here combined.

...even me.

It has over like 100,000k viewers - it's mind-boggling,
and I tip my hat to him.

There is no WAY the man would have this kind of suc-
cess with a WSO and *get away with it* if his MORAL
character was wrong.

He would have been shut down long ago...

His decision to NOT put a limit on courses to sell has
made a significant impact in a POSITIVE way.

I'm sure it was a tough decision to decide NOT to hold
up on the original deal, but by not DOING so...

he's helped more people make their first dollar and in
some cases make 4 to figures a month.

How many people have YOU helped in this way to judge
this mans morals?

Anyways, you don't have to answer this. I know you
are not capable ofn a intelligent conversation based on
your first response...

you'll pick one or two things out THIS response, ignore
the rest, and be done with it.

And that's fine.

I can't lead a blind man to see who doesn't want to
open his eyes...and I don't care too.

It's not worth my time.

But...

hopefully this post IS of some use educational wise...

because I'm learning a lot from it.

Thanks for that. The OP is pissed that others are also using the techniques in my WSO and he is now scared he is going to lose out because he is making money with what I taught him and this is what I get for it?

Damn!

There are over 1000 comments on that WSO and it's been open for 7 months and also I am not even promoting it anymore and sales are not that good anymore so chill out por favor.

Cheers

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Gaz Cooper

14 years ago

Originally Posted by jan roos

Thanks for that. The OP is pissed that others are also using the techniques in my WSO and he is now scared he is going to lose out because he is making money with what I taught him and this is what I get for it?.

Cheers

Hey Jan

Had no idea who it was until you posted and identified yourself, and your obviously a stand up guy and have a good rep on WF

However the OP from what I initally read, is not pissed off that others are using it more like the statement you were closing it and limiting it, and then you did not, thats what I undertood to be the issue here.

Since its a 7 month old thread maybe it was just an oversight.

I don't own your course but have heard good things about it.

Kickin it on Amazon

Gaz Cooper
Amz Training Academy

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jan roos

14 years ago

Originally Posted by GazCooperOnline

Hey Jan

Had no idea who it was until you posted and identified yourself, and your obviously a stand up guy and have a good rep on WF

However the OP from what I initally read, is not pissed off that others are using it more like the statement you were closing it and limiting it, and then you did not, thats what I undertood to be the issue here.

Since its a 7 month old thread maybe it was just an oversight.

I don't own your course but have heard good things about it.

Kickin it on Amazon

Gaz Cooper
Amz Training Academy

Yeah it was a small thing that got overlooked. Not a deceitful tactic to rob everyone's wallet from their hard earned money . lol

Cheers

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Paul Myers

14 years ago

Jan,

And btw, I was going to close it but decided not too and that is my decision and mine alone thank you very much.

Actually, it's not. Not when you change the terms after someone has purchased.

You said 4-6 weeks, 8 or 9 months ago. I'm surprised this hasn't been brought to our attention earlier.

Note: This has nothing to do with the quality of the product. The reviews seem quite good, in fact. This is about doing what you promise people you'll do - or not do - in exchange for their money.

Paul

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jan roos

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Jan,Actually, it's not. Not when you change the terms after someone has purchased.

You said 4-6 weeks, 8 or 9 months ago. I'm surprised this hasn't been brought to our attention earlier.

Note: This has nothing to do with the quality of the product. The reviews seem quite good, in fact. This is about doing what you promise people you'll do - or not do - in exchange for their money.

Paul

Ok so I said I was going to close the WSO in 4 weeks and I changed my mind. I apologize.

I know from the emails I get from thankful people thanking me for changing their lives that I didn't want to close the WSO. I changed my mind and didn't tink it was such a big deal so I apologize for that ok.

I can't believe we are really in a pissing contest over this.

Cheers

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Paul Myers

14 years ago

Jan,

I can't believe we are really in a pissing contest over this.

It's hardly that. We're clarifying something that's relevant to what is and is not acceptable for sellers here. My comments have been based on the facts of the circumstance. No personal reference was made.

As far as your stated motivations, I have no reason to question them. You've never given me any. That doesn't change the reasonable expectation on the part of your early customers that you would do what you said you would do.

You made the box. If it turned out to be too small for you, that's not the customer's responsibility. There were perfectly acceptable alternatives to escape the box and still keep your promises regarding the limit you set.

Paul

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jan roos

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Jan,It's hardly that. We're clarifying something that's relevant to what is and is not acceptable for sellers here. My comments have been based on the facts of the circumstance. No personal reference was made.

As far as your stated motivations, I have no reason to question them. You've never given me any. That doesn't change the reasonable expectation on the part of your early customers that you would do what you said you would do.

You made the box. If it turned out to be too small for you, that's not the customer's responsibility. There were perfectly acceptable alternatives to escape the box and still keep your promises regarding the limit you set.

Paul

Ok, let me ask you this. That thread is like 7 months old. I was going to limit the copies on the forum and then launch to CB for a higher price but I decided t keep the WSO open for longer so sorry about that.

Do you really want me to go and close it? Seriously? lol

Just let me know and I will.

Cheers

Jan

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ExRat

14 years ago

Hi Jan,

Yeah it was a small thing that got overlooked

Perhaps you should go and read the threads about false scarcity and observe how people feel about it. Perhaps you should put yourself in the shoes of your customer. Perhaps you should consider what effect your deceit has on the rest of the sellers in the forum and the reputation of the forum in general.

Where do you draw the line on this 'small thing?'

How many 'small things' is each seller allowed to get away with for each WSO?

Turning 'a few weeks' into 'seven months' doesn't necessarily seem like a small thing to everyone.

If someone asked if they could doss on your sofa for a few weeks and that was OK to you and they were still there seven months later, is it still a small thing?

I changed my mind

a small thing that got overlooked

Did you change your mind or was it overlooked? They are two different things.

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jan roos

14 years ago

I changed my mind and didn't take it off the sales page and pretty much forgot about it. That's what I overlooked.

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ExRat

14 years ago

Hi Jan,

Did you change your mind or was it overlooked? They are two different things.

I changed my mind and didn't take it off the sales page and pretty much forgot about it. That's what I overlooked.

You didn't think that your previous buyers needed to be told, or compensated in any way for the change of mind? Or did you overlook that as well?

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jan roos

14 years ago

Originally Posted by ExRat

Hi Jan,

You didn't think that your previous buyers needed to be told, or compensated in any way for the change of mind? Or did you overlook that as well?

Compensated or let know? No I don't.

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ExRat 14 years ago

Hi Jan,

Compensated or let know? No I don't.

Thanks for clearing that up.
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- jan roos 14 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by ExRat
  
  Hi Jan,
  
  Thanks for clearing that up.
  
  You're welcome.
  
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  DR's Fynest 14 years ago
  
  I TRIED to just sit by the sideline and watch... The need to express my opinion on this HUGE issue got the better of me...
  
  First off, I want to say that I bought Jan Roos' product a few months ago. It actually is a GREAT product on how to build Amazon product review sites.
  
  I was already making some money with Amazon because of the training I got from another WSO. However, in my quest to learn as much as I could about successful techniques for promoting Amazon products, I wanted to buy Jan's WSO.
  
  Before buying it, I had this voice in the back of my head telling me that the price seemed a bit too high for being a WSO. However, due to all the incredible reviews (well deserved reviews by the way,) AND the fact that it had a notice informing the WSO was closing soon, I decided to take the plunge. So for my situation, the mention of the offer coming to an end in a few weeks was a deciding factor in me purchasing at that time.
  
  Now, while I don't regret the purchase one bit, I do feel I was lied to. I can only imagine what the real early adopters must feel like to watch the offer still go on.
  
  To me, someone's word is MUCH more valuable than anything else. If a person can't do right by their word, that immediately makes me think WAY differently about them.
  
  I want to also make it clear that this has NOTHING to do with creating more competition. There are PLENTY of other Amazon products in the WSO section. Heck, GazCooper offers a really good FREE course on it.
  
  The issue being discussed is simply whether WSO sellers need to stick to their word regarding scarcity.
  
  I'm sorry but the whole, "I'm trying to help as many people as I can" and "I forgot to adjust the title" replies sound like obvious excuses to just keep raking in the money. Sorry to sound so harsh, but it's what a lot of people ARE thinking but only a FEW are brave enough to say it.
  
  How could you overlook the title when you had people such as the OP asking you about it?
  
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Marx Vergel Melencio

14 years ago

In my opinion...
•The OP believed the seller's guarantee of closing down the WSO after a couple of weeks. This could've most likely caused the OP to buy the WSO, aside from other benefits guaranteed by the seller, as described by the WSO thread...
•After all: The OP stated that he or she believes in the devaluation of the WSO if it's sold to more people than what the OP perceives as the largest possible volume of buyers in the couple of weeks the WSO should've remained open, as guaranteed by the seller...
•If not for this guarantee, then most likely: The OP wouldn't have bought it, right then and there, because the OP believes what he or she stated above...
　
Now, the OP thinks and feels he or she has been deceived in buying the WSO...
•He or she saw the limited number of possible buyers as among the most beneficial features of the WSO, and he or she didn't get that particular benefit, as guaranteed by the seller...
•After a few months, in which the seller also informed buyers that it will be closed down: The OP learns the WSO doesn't come bundled with the feature the OP believes as among the most beneficial features of the product, because the WSO has yet to be taken down at the time the OP posted this thread...
　
Based on the OP and Jan's quoted posts below, it seems the OP contacted Jan, and Jan responded with an explanation which the OP doesn't perceive as a helpful solution to his or her concerns...
　
OP's First Concern

Originally Posted by thedog

I bought a WSO. In the sales pitch it was claimed that it would be closing in a couple of weeks. After more than a couple of weeks, it was still open, sales were good. Some people brought this up, and we were told that it was to be extended, but assured that it would be closed. More time passed and it was still open, again this was brought up and the seller told us he's decided to leave it open, as he wanted to give everyone the same opportunity. Do you think this is fair?

　
Seller's Response to OP's First Concern

Originally Posted by jan roos

Well I am very flattered that my product is so good that people want me to close it. And btw, I was going to close it but decided not too and that is my decision and mine alone thank you very much.

　
OP's Second Concern

Originally Posted by thedog

Besides the fact that the seller didn't tell the truth, my real concern is that it devalues the product. The course in question is extremely popular, and the sites it helps you create all pretty much look the same. Myself and others have seen many copies of the same sites during our niche research. The longer this stays up, the more copies, the less valuable it is.

　
Seller's Response to OP's Second Concern

Originally Posted by jan roos

You are concerned that people is going to saturate all the niches on Amazon and that you will have some competition on the search engines. I told you already that this is shallow thinking and that there are millions of keywords and lots of other ways to get traffic to your sites and you WILL always have competition no matter what niche you are in. That's all I have to say.

Now, when Roger asked Jan these things:

Originally Posted by ExRat

Perhaps you should go and read the threads about false scarcity and observe how people feel about it. Perhaps you should put yourself in the shoes of your customer. Perhaps you should consider what effect your deceit has on the rest of the sellers in the forum and the reputation of the forum in general.
Where do you draw the line on this 'small thing?'
How many 'small things' is each seller allowed to get away with for each WSO?
Turning 'a few weeks' into 'seven months' doesn't necessarily seem like a small thing to everyone.
If someone asked if they could doss on your sofa for a few weeks and that was OK to you and they were still there seven months later, is it still a small thing?
Did you change your mind or was it overlooked? They are two different things.

Originally Posted by ExRat

You didn't think that your previous buyers needed to be told, or compensated in any way for the change of mind? Or did you overlook that as well?

Jan answered:

Originally Posted by jan roos

Compensated or let know? No I don't.

What gives? If I were the OP: I for one would file a PayPal dispute, because I received an item/product not as described in the WSO thread.
In my opinion: If Jan gave me the answers quoted above regarding the OP's first and second concerns: I would've filed the PayPal dispute right then and there, but that's just me, because I expect a seller to keep his or her end of the deal, as described, and there isn't any room for multiple interpretations about a guarantee of a limited sales period for the WSO...
I believe the OP's concern now has transformed into a question about WSO sellers in general, given his or her experience...

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ExRat

14 years ago

Hi,

I didn't realise until it was mentioned here that the 'limited' scarcity angle was actually used in the headline, with multiple variations, presumeably altered when bumping. The word 'limited' even shows up in the tags as one of the automatically selected keywords.

You can see the original salespage here

Which shows some of the claims such as -

(Right at the top) -

Very Limited Number Of Copies Available!

(Lower down) -

I am going to LIMIT the number of copies to only 300.

Fact: Your Competition is not doing all of this and if you do it consistently you will blow them out of the water. I blew away many authority niche sites with my simple 7 page blogs just by using these techniques consistently.

(Yet the defence now is that competition isn't an issue -

This WSO will never be saturated because there are hundreds of thousands of niches out there waiting to be tapped.

Quote from here

So you paid $97 for a complete business model that has probably paid you back more than $97 in return and you are complaining telling me to close this WSO because you don't want others to have the same chance as you?

Come on dude. Get real.

For each niche there are hundreds of profitable keywords and I can build 10 sites in the same niche and probably turn a profit on them all. Couple that with thousands of products and aff programs out there and you will not get saturation.

Think a bit for yourself mate. I can't teach you that.

Quote from here)

Bottom of original salespage -

I am not offering a money back guarantee for this product because I know for a fact that this stuff is cutting edge and it works. I am not promising some new super slick technique of making a million dollars online. You are paying for an insider look at my system and exactly how I research, build and promote sites that sold over $300,000 worth of products in the last few months.

If you are already a know it all type of person and also if you are one of the many people on this forum that basically steals other people's products by buying the product and then immediately ask for a refund pls don't buy this course as I do not want to share my techniques with you anyways.

Since only 300 people will get access I want to reserve the spots for those that truly want it.

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Paul Myers

14 years ago

Jan,

Ok, let me ask you this. That thread is like 7 months old. I was going to limit the copies on the forum and then launch to CB for a higher price but I decided t keep the WSO open for longer so sorry about that.

Do you really want me to go and close it? Seriously? lol

No need. It's done. That thread was posted on October 9th of last year. That's just shy of 10 months, which is a bit more than 4-6 weeks...

The product sounds excellent, based on the reviews. I hope you sell a ton on Clickbank.

Paul

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WillR 14 years ago

Originally Posted by jan roos

I changed my mind and didn't take it off the sales page and pretty much forgot about it. That's what I overlooked.

Unfortunately the law doesn't just 'forget about things' as easily as you do. If you make a promise and a person purchases from you based on that promise then you have an obligation to keep that promise. It's basic consumer law.

Let me ask you this question. If I offered a 60 day guarantee on a product, I then sold 1,000 units of that product and then 'changed my mind' and decided to remove the guarantee, do you think that is fair?

That's no different from what has been done in this situation. A guarantee is used as a selling point as is a limited quantity. You can't then decide to remove that selling point simply because it suits your bottom line better. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

Note: I DIDN'T purchase this product from you and also have never dealt with you before. You're probably a nice guy. However I think people have a valid reason to be annoyed and I think this type of thing needs to be stamped out of the WSO forum. Imagine one of your customers comes along another WSO with a GENUINE limited quantity - do you think they are going to believe that? No, because of their previous experience with you.

So this type of thing does effect others.
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boxoun

14 years ago

Originally Posted by jan roos

Ok so I said I was going to close the WSO in 4 weeks and I changed my mind. I apologize.

I know from the emails I get from thankful people thanking me for changing their lives that I didn't want to close the WSO. I changed my mind and didn't tink it was such a big deal so I apologize for that ok.

I can't believe we are really in a pissing contest over this.

Cheers

This is my opinion.

You used it as a scarcity tactic. After the buzz was over you simply just got too lazy and didnt actually take it down. Nothing more nothing less.

Or..

Just another case of product creator caring so much for the people that they couldnt take the wso down. It would be morally wrong. Especially in this economic crisis.

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Paul Myers 14 years ago

Roger,

Boot: (verb) To remove from the forum, with extreme prejudice.

Note that I was speaking there of a clear-cut instance of outright fraud. Violations of a noticeably lesser standing might result in lesser punishment.

Paul
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Chri5123

14 years ago

NOTE: Teach me not to read the entire thread - ok I see that he clearly was not wording it properly - agree you can't set an offer IN STONE and then go back on it - which is why it is not a good idea!

Chris

Originally Posted by boxoun

This is my opinion.

You used it as a scarcity tactic. After the buzz was over you simply just got too lazy and didnt actually take it down. Nothing more nothing less.

Or..

Just another case of product creator caring so much for the people that they couldnt take the wso down. It would be morally wrong. Especially in this economic crisis.

I disagree, he didnt take it down because it is a sought after service.

It makes money...

Also judging by the feedback he is getting a good service too.

I am not saying he is RIGHT to keep it open but it is HIS business!

We are ALL in the business of making money here right?

Ethics don't come into this really...

If I have an offer or service and as a test I release 100 copies and then decide to put something like:

"Thank you to everyone that ordered - the service/product has been a HUGE success so I am happy to say we have decided to open to everyone until further notice...

Obviously the initial offer was for 100 spots and we don't want to upset our existing customers with that special deal so we can't offer the same price.

However you can STILL get a spot at just $xx.xx - not sure how long this will last!..."

Don't see anything wrong with running your business the way you want...

Good luck to him I say!

Chris Jones

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thedog

14 years ago

Originally Posted by WhoIsBenjamin

[FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=3]

I appreciate you taking the time to answer THAT specific
question, but you have yet to answer THIS one I asked
as well:
Is it more important you spend your time asking WHY a
product owner is selling more than he promised, who is,
theoretically serving more people?

Or...

is your time better spent APPLYING or DOING what you
purchased?

Fair question. Most of my time is better spent working on my sites of course.

I did find the seller was a little abrupt when I confronted him about not closing the wso (I'm not the only one who brought this up by the way). So I simply asked the board what they thought of this, and, is this common? This is a discussion forum after all.

I'm done with this, I think most of the feedback so far speaks for its self.

Thanks for yours.

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lacraiger

14 years ago

they could have changed their mind...

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fitz10 14 years ago

Originally Posted by lacraiger

they could have changed their mind...

I think the point here is that a more ethical marketer would stick to their original promise even if they they did have a change in thinking.
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vivekvig

14 years ago

Hi, i think there is no wrong in this. He stated that it will close "After couple of weeks". He not stated the numbers. Be it 2, 20, 40, 100 etc. so i think its not wrong.

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Black Hat Cat

Banned 14 years ago

Originally Posted by vivekvig

Hi, i think there is no wrong in this. He stated that it will close "After couple of weeks". He not stated the numbers. Be it 2, 20, 40, 100 etc. so i think its not wrong.

How many is a couple in your world, because everywhere else a couple = 2.

Meanwhile, the "I want to help as many as possible" argument is BS. If that's the case, why did he ever put the limit on to begin with?

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timpears

14 years ago

It isn't fair, life isn't fair. That is the way it is though.

That trick is a marketing trick of limited availability. Often used, and often abused just to create buying frenzy. I have been caught by it before, but I am getting wise to it lately and will write the OP to find out the truth.

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GoldenGlovez

14 years ago

Seller should be held to their word. Limited offer is limited; nothing more. Not fair at all to say a particular product is only available to a certain time/buyers. It's a bad tactic that will hurt their reputation.

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BIG Mike

Banned 14 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

There were perfectly acceptable alternatives to escape the box and still keep your promises regarding the limit you set.

For all of you folks who run WSO's, that's something to print out and tape to your monitor.

As a bit of a sidebar to this topic, I'm curious as to how it falls into compliance with part of WSO Rule #3, ...This is not a "buy my product" forum, it is a "Special Offer" forum"...

Below is a quote from Jan's last comment in the WSO that I think best illustrates my confusion:

Originally Posted by jan roos

This thread is like 7 months old. I was going to limit it in order to launch somewhere else for more expensive but I decided to keep it here in the forum for longer.

This isn't the only WSO I've seen that has run for months on end, and the scarcity issue notwithstanding, makes me wonder how "Special" of an offer it really is. Clearly it's not being offered elsewhere publicly at a higher price. Seems to me that the $97 price point is the only "Retail" price because it looks like at one point within the WSO's run, it was offered at a 50% discount (30 copies).

I guess I'm still living with the past notion that a WSO shouldn't run for more than 2 or 3 weeks and the same offer shouldn't be run twice within six months. More importantly, that the price or something else about the offer makes it significantly better than what can be had if purchased outside the WF.

To be honest, the WSO forum looks more and more like a "Buy My Product" forum than it does a special offer forum. In checking a few random offers the OP's aren't selling their product anywhere else and don't even have so much as a basic sales page set up.

From what I see, this particular offer should have been closed after a couple of weeks and re-opened in the classifieds section at a higher price, assuming he doesn't want to set up a sales page.

It wouldn't break my heart to see mods deleting WSO's sometime after three weeks has elapsed...

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vok 14 years ago

For all those who laugh and think it's not a serious topic. There's a lot of lawsuits that come about because of false advertising. So you may just want to keep that in mind for all those who like to run up the BS'o'meter.

It'll also nothing for your long term business, people will brand you as a fake.
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- 1stwarrior 14 years ago
  
  The problem isn't that is unfair. This is commonly used by some marketers because is a sale tactic. Nothing illegal, but unethical. So nothing to do about it, just keep in mind that this happens all the time.
  
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  Paul Myers 14 years ago
  
  mijagi,
  
  Anyways, if moderators/owners of WarriorForum are kind enough to take the money for the WSO, they may as well do something to protect the buyers.
  
  None of the people involved can know beforhand that someone is going to pull a stunt like that. None of us has any ability to force the seller to refund your money. All we can do is boot the folks who pull such things, and try to keep them out in the future.
  
  Hence the warnings in the WSO section rules. You are ultimately responsible for your decisions.
  
  Paul
  
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  ExRat 14 years ago
  
  Hi Paul,
  
  All we can do is boot the folks who pull such things, and try to keep them out in the future.
  
  It would be appreciated if you could clarify 'boot' in this instance, if that's at all possible, thankyou.
  
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- rts2271 14 years ago
  
  Is lying fair?
  
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  CyberSorcerer 14 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by rts2271
  
  Is lying fair?
  
  I guess for some, it depends on if they get away with it or not?
  
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- dshipman 14 years ago
  
  Perhaps I'm jaded, but I never believe someone when they say their product's going to be closed or no longer available. Now if what they're selling is some precious or rare physical object, I'll be more likely to believe them.
  
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WillR

14 years ago

Originally Posted by BIG Mike

As a bit of a sidebar to this topic, I'm curious as to how it falls into compliance with part of WSO Rule #3, ...This is not a "buy my product" forum, it is a "Special Offer" forum"...

This isn't the only WSO I've seen that has run for months on end, and the scarcity issue notwithstanding, makes me wonder how "Special" of an offer it really is. Clearly it's not being offered elsewhere publicly at a higher price. Seems to me that the $97 price point is the only "Retail" price because it looks like at one point within the WSO's run, it was offered at a 50% discount (30 copies).

I guess I'm still living with the past notion that a WSO shouldn't run for more than 2 or 3 weeks and the same offer shouldn't be run twice within six months. More importantly, that the price or something else about the offer makes it significantly better than what can be had if purchased outside the WF.

I can't for the life of me remember in which thread but I do seem to remember Paul clearing up this very point recently.

Please, correct me if I'm wrong.

The fact a WSO is ONLY available on the Warrior Forum and nowhere else still makes it a valid WSO. If it is not available anywhere else then clearly it IS a special offer as it's only available to the Warrior Forum. Often people will use the WSO forum to test products BEFORE they launch them to the public and I can't see the harm in that.

The problem that rule (you quoted) was trying to eradicate is people who are already selling their product elsewhere and come here for more exposure. They are allowed to do so IF they offer Warriors a better deal than that already being advertised to the general public.

You need to remember also that not all WSO's are products... some people offer services as well. Should they also be deleted after 2-3 weeks? I don't believe there is any mention of a time limit in the WSO rules and don't see the need for it either BUT if you decide to create your own scarcity then you need to stick by it.

Originally Posted by Chri5123

Ethics don't come into this really...

WHAT?! Ok, remind me never to purchase any of your products!

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WD Mino 14 years ago

If you have a product and say it is going to have a limited time offer you need to make sure it is a limited time offer.

Well it is doing real well I don't want to take it down.
I wish you well in your endeavor then.However short it may be.

Integrity is what people need to see and that should be the focus of any person offering any product to the public.quite ridiculous really, Lying is lying no matter how sugar coated you make the crap it is still what it is
don't use false scarcity
don't misrepresent your product or yourself
don't take advantage of people
how hard is this stuff?:confused:
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ExRat

14 years ago

Hi WillR, BIG Mike, rosetrees,

Originally Posted by WillR

Originally Posted by BIG Mike

As a bit of a sidebar to this topic, I'm curious as to how it falls into compliance with part of WSO Rule #3, ...This is not a "buy my product" forum, it is a "Special Offer" forum"...

This isn't the only WSO I've seen that has run for months on end, and the scarcity issue notwithstanding, makes me wonder how "Special" of an offer it really is. Clearly it's not being offered elsewhere publicly at a higher price. Seems to me that the $97 price point is the only "Retail" price because it looks like at one point within the WSO's run, it was offered at a 50% discount (30 copies).

I guess I'm still living with the past notion that a WSO shouldn't run for more than 2 or 3 weeks and the same offer shouldn't be run twice within six months. More importantly, that the price or something else about the offer makes it significantly better than what can be had if purchased outside the WF.

I can't for the life of me remember in which thread but I do seem to remember Paul clearing up this very point recently.

Please, correct me if I'm wrong.

The fact a WSO is ONLY available on the Warrior Forum and nowhere else still makes it a valid WSO. If it is not available anywhere else then clearly it IS a special offer as it's only available to the Warrior Forum. Often people will use the WSO forum to test products BEFORE they launch them to the public and I can't see the harm in that.

The problem that rule (you quoted) was trying to eradicate is people who are already selling their product elsewhere and come here for more exposure. They are allowed to do so IF they offer Warriors a better deal than that already being advertised to the general public.

Rosetrees -

The most under-enforced rule here on this forum. I guess Paul just doesn't have the time to do it.

I brought that up here

It was addressed by mods here -

(Ken Strong)

Personally, I've never interpreted that to mean that WSOs were required to also be available outside the forum.

Seems to me that something only available here definitely qualifies as a special offer.

And here -

(Paul Myers)

This is an area that's caused some confusion as things evolve. We had the choice of allowing the confusion or writing ever more and stricter rules. The former seemed preferable.

As it stands now, I think the only condition you'd have to watch for with your idea is that the product should not be the same or lower price on a public offer that's made later.

..............................

Hi WD Mino,

don't use false scarcity
don't misrepresent your product or yourself
don't take advantage of people
how hard is this stuff?:confused:

It's clearly very hard for some people.

Take a look at the WSO in question. I think it's 36 pages, 30 sold at reduced price, the rest at $100. Take a guess or look at WSO pro figures to work out the revenue.

I'm sure some might think, 'perhaps he regrets using the scarcity at all when it has sold so well?'

But who can quantify the benefit of all of the early buyers, providing social proof and testimonials, creating a flaming thread etc - perhaps it would have flopped and disappeared without them? Who knows.

How many other people were selling Amazon courses (or any other product) and missed out on sales because buyers plumped to spend what they could spare on this course on the basis that it might sell out? That's part of the cost.

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jeffster 14 years ago

Most people are honest and try to do the right thing and they believe others are the same. That's why it's easy for some unscrupulous individuals to come along and create a false sense of scarcity to sell a few extra copies... but are you ever going to buy from them again?

I guess you could also ask for a refund if you think that whatever's being sold might become saturated.
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Michael Oksa 14 years ago

Originally Posted by ExRat

I brought that up here

And I will respond the same way...

The way I've always seen it is that it's a better deal if it's ONLY available to Warriors. In other words, exclusivity counts for something, doesn't it?

I look at the Warrior Forum as a community, and I'm happy to share with this community, but there are things that I don't want to share with the public at large.

BIG Mike said (emphasis added)...

More importantly, that the price or something else about the offer makes it significantly better than what can be had if purchased outside the WF.

I agree, and to me that "something else" INCLUDES exclusivity to the WF.

If they suddenly said exclusivity wasn't enough and that you HAD to have an external page with the same offer, I would simply set up a generic page where the public price was 5 times higher. I wouldn't promote that page in any way, but it would be ready and waiting for "proof". I can also guarantee that I wouldn't be the only one doing this.

Another thing to consider: What if it's a limited PLR package? How do you set up the tracking at different prices? Say you wanted to sell 50 total packages, but you do not want to set 25 at one price and the other 25 at another; you want to do it on a first-come, first-served basis. I'm not sure how that could be done.

As I've said, exclusivity to the forum can make an offer "special". There really are things that I create SOLELY for the benefit of my friends here at the forum.

All the best,
Michael
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BIG Mike

Banned 14 years ago

Originally Posted by WillR

The fact a WSO is ONLY available on the Warrior Forum and nowhere else still makes it a valid WSO. If it is not available anywhere else then clearly it IS a special offer as it's only available to the Warrior Forum.

I know I'm going to get slapped for this, but if also it's available through WSO Pro/Warrior Plus I don't see it as being quite so special :rolleyes:

Often people will use the WSO forum to test products BEFORE they launch them to the public and I can't see the harm in that.

I agree and don't have a problem with this - except 10 months is a long test even for NASA

You need to remember also that not all WSO's are products... some people offer services as well. Should they also be deleted after 2-3 weeks? I don't believe there is any mention of a time limit in the WSO rules and don't see the need for it either BUT if you decide to create your own scarcity then you need to stick by it.

A few years ago (as I said, I was living in the past), I'm positive that WSO's were deleted sometime after they hit three weeks and you weren't allowed to post the same offer twice within six months.

Whether it's a new product in testing, an existing product or a service, the idea was to give members a special deal on what you offered - not use it as your sole marketplace. There's another section of the WF for doing just that - the Classified Ads Forum, isn't there?

@Michael O., Roger, et al., - I brought up the ...This is not a "buy my product" forum, it is a "Special Offer" forum"... part, because even with exclusivity, WSO's that run for months/years on end just don't seem so special to me any more - they're just pimping their products here.

I missed most of the thread Roger pointed out, but see Paul cleared it for the new generation, LOL.

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Paul Myers

14 years ago

TL,

Nearly a YEAR later and STILL on about it?...Really?

Actually, the offer was closed within a fairly short amount of time after it was brought to the attention of a moderator. And this thread has been going on for less than a day.

Jan,

The plan was to release the WSO to 300 people and then close it in order to launch it outside of the WSO section for a higher price.

You said "4 to 6 weeks." I can get you the exact date if you like?

I didn't see anything in there about 300 copies, but I will freely admit I didn't read every post in the extended thread. The time limit was enough.

Paul

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jan roos

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

TL,Actually, the offer was closed within a fairly short amount of time after it was brought to the attention of a moderator. And this thread has been going on for less than a day.

Jan,You said "4 to 6 weeks." I can get you the exact date if you like?

I didn't see anything in there about 300 copies, but I will freely admit I didn't read every post in the extended thread. The time limit was enough.

Paul

Yeah, I did say somewhere in the comments 4 - 6 weeks still around before sold out. I did have 300 copies on the sales page for a while.

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Paul Myers 14 years ago

Roger,

Thanks. I didn't see the original. I only saw the edited version, and the quote where he said "4 to 6 weeks."

Paul
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John Taylor

14 years ago

One of the most important asset of any business
is it's brand and how it's perceived.

The Internet Marketing niche isn't any different
from any other market. Brand is important.

Customer's don't just decide to buy on price alone.

Value is a better indicator and value includes the
whole package... Product quality, customer service,
timely delivery, honesty and integrity, length of time
in business, long term prospects, continuity, oh yeah
and price, to name but a few.

When there's a lack on congruity between what you
do and what you say... you're in trouble. If you need
an example look up "Gerald Ratner" a well know UK
based businessman who jokingly described his retail
jewelry products as crap.

Your values should be important to you. Because they
are certainly important to your prospects & customers.

Sure, we can all make mistakes. How you handle those
mistakes can offer a real picture of your real values.

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johndougs

14 years ago

You think everyone on the net is honest as you are? Think again.

THat's how they make their sales - unfortunately all honesty and truth are tossed out the window with such people and marketers.

Anyway, welcome to the world of Marketing!

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ExRat 14 years ago

Hi johndougs,

You think everyone on the net is honest as you are? Think again.

Who are you addressing?

THat's how they make their sales - unfortunately all honesty and truth are tossed out the window with such people and marketers.

Who are they?

Anyway, welcome to the world of Marketing!

Who is this that you are addressing in a manner that appears to suggest that they are naive and new to marketing? The OP who started the thread?

Perhaps they (whoever that is) had multiple reasons for their post(s) that had nothing to naivety or newness to the market?
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mijagi 14 years ago

Most WSOs I bought were legitimate and the sellers were honest...

But not so long ago, I bought a WSO (Wordpress templates for offline businesses) that made me feel like I was being scammed.

Why? Well, the guy moved the themes to another server/domain (his explanation) and then sent me email informing me that due to additional costs (?!) I now have to pay another payment to access the themes I have already bought.

I went back to the WSO thread but it was closed because seller apparently broke someone's copyright. Funny, isn't it?

Anyways, if moderators/owners of WarriorForum are kind enough to take the money for the WSO, they may as well do something to protect the buyers.
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Chri5123

14 years ago

I think it comes down to this:

"Take EVERYTHING you see and hear with a pinch of salt"

For instance if I have a service and it is selling well and I say that spaces (or whatever) are limited and then close the offer.

If someone then gets in contact and says they really want a space and will pay 4x the asking price I may well accept the offer.

Business after all is just a series of offers...

Another example:

Due to the wonders of online business I recently purchased my first BRAND NEW car!

Was really chuffed...still am it was an awesome experience going out for a test drive etc...

Anyway I digress, the car salesman was good and I wanted to get the best deal...

Being in sales I was saying "I know the way it works - what is your best deal?"

He said "OK, I can sell you the car for £xx,xxx BUT only today..."

I laughed and said "OK so you are saying if I walk out now you can't offer me the same deal tomorrow?"

He said "No"

I said "OK, I am going to have to test this..." got up to leave and he said:

"Hang on...OK of course we could this is sales..."

I said:

"Brilliant can you offer me a better deal for TODAY then?"

He did!

The car was sold!

I hope that makes sense?

The point I am trying to make is:

Yes you DO need to stick by what you said to begin with but YOU as the customer also must know WE are all in sales and just take everything with a pinch of salt.

Just my 2 pence...

Chris Jones

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magnates

14 years ago

You cannot afford to lie to people and deceive people .

It would always create bad feelings

You are as good as your word and if you do not keep it ... you are keeping a bad reputation

If you lie to me about the number of copies , what else are you going to lie about ...

If i bought , i would less likely to believe what you say next even if what you are promoting sincerely works because you have lied to me the previous time

To be honest , i would have unsubscribed from your list like i have from some other people looking to pull the wool over eyes

Just saying ...

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TLCarroll

14 years ago

Seriously?

OP,
This has had you upset for 10 months??? Really??? No kidding???

Wow. OK, so now the WSO has been closed, you still get to keep the product and benefit from it well into the future and you have the warm blanket of your fellow outraged product buyers to keep you warm at night. This thread must be extremely satisfying.

Thank goodness the product seller has other outlets to market in or the angry/righteously indignant/torch wielding villagers might never leave go until the product seller is crucified/vivisected.

I'd offer a bit of caviar and toast points to accompany that lovely Merlot but I've been too busy making money over the last 10 months to be that bothered.

I swear sometimes...

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fluffythewondercat

14 years ago

Originally Posted by TLCarroll

Thank goodness the product seller has other outlets to market in or the angry/righteously indignant/torch wielding villagers might never leave go until the product seller is crucified/vivisected.

Noted.

Amazing, really, how many people are lining up to expose themselves.

fLufF
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TLCarroll 14 years ago

Originally Posted by fluffythewondercat

Noted.

Amazing, really, how many people are lining up to expose themselves.

fLufF
--

Not really all that amazing. I have nothing to hide and therefore nothing to expose.

And since I don't sell anything here you needn't worry your fluffiness so as to avoid buying anything from me.

Um. Actually, if you do a Warrior Forum search under my screen name, you'll see I've voiced similar sentiments all the way back to 2006.

Whiners and bullies are my downfall I'm afraid. I despise them with a passion.

Your mileage, of course, may certainly vary.

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DeborahDera

14 years ago

Here's the real question.

Did he promise the WSO would be closing in a couple of weeks (as in no one else can get that great price) - or did he promise that he would stop selling the product altogether in a couple of weeks?

There's a huge difference here.

He may have said he was going to close the WSO in order to entice you to buy more at the lower price. But if he didn't say he was going to *stop selling the product* he could easily continue selling it on other sites, at whatever price he wants. How would you know the difference?

If he promised to limit the # of copies he sold, you have a different issue.

Either way, it is unethical to make a promise and not keep it, but the underlying issue is really what would be more important to me - saturation of the product.

Originally Posted by thedog

Hi guys, I bought a WSO [identifying details removed by moderator].

In the sales pitch it was claimed that it would be closing in a couple of weeks.

After more than a couple of weeks, it was still open, sales were good. Some people brought this up, and we were told that it was to be extended, but assured that it would be closed.

More time passed and it was still open, again this was brought up and the seller told us he's decided to leave it open, as he wanted to give everyone the same opportunity.

Do you think this is fair? Is this common practice on WF?

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Danielm

14 years ago

I bought a WSO a few weeks ago where the WSOPro buy button said 1 more left. i bought it and the WSO closed after that. I was so blown away that it was actually legit that I emailed the seller commending him on not using the common BS tactic.

I agree that if you said it is going to be limited, you should follow through. If you decided you wanted to sell 300 copies and they sold in 15 minutes, then you did what you wanted and maybe the next product won't be so limited.

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ExRat

14 years ago

Hi TLCarroll,

Seriously?

OP,
This has had you upset for 10 months??? Really??? No kidding???

Wow. OK, so now the WSO has been closed, you still get to keep the product and benefit from it well into the future and you have the warm blanket of your fellow outraged product buyers to keep you warm at night. This thread must be extremely satisfying.

Thank goodness the product seller has other outlets to market in or the angry/righteously indignant/torch wielding villagers might never leave go until the product seller is crucified/vivisected.

I'd offer a bit of caviar and toast points to accompany that lovely Merlot but I've been too busy making money over the last 10 months to be that bothered.

I swear sometimes...

Haha!

I love the way you finished off your diatribe with the standard 'I've been busy making money.'

You must be one of those gooroos. One day, I hope I can reach the same heights of pomposity as you and eat some caviar rather than beans on toast down here in the village with the righteously indignant torch-bearing peasants.

Interesting to note that a few posts ago in a different WSO, you said this -

My favourite part about this WSO is that it doesn't have that annoying "Hurry up and buy it now because the price goes up as you're saving to buy the damned thing!" feature.

I despise those types of offers that try to bully you into buying faster. UGH.

You only recently left the village yourself then?

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TLCarroll

14 years ago

Originally Posted by ExRat

Hi TLCarroll,

Haha!

I love the way you finished off your diatribe with the standard 'I've been busy making money.'

You must be one of those gooroos. One day, I hope I can reach the same heights of pomposity as you and eat some caviar rather than beans on toast down here in the village with the righteously indignant torch-bearing peasants.

Standard? I wouldn't know. And anyone can eat caviar, it's simply fish roe. BTW, nothing wrong with beans either. (Being an American we don't traditionally eat them on toast, but they are delicious with rice.)

[/quote]

Interesting to note that a few posts ago in a different WSO, you said this -

You only recently left the village yourself then?

I remain a villager, just not a torch wielding bully.

After someone makes thier point, however valid or invalid, then continues to whine until there is some sort of pacifier stuffed into thier puss...it's rather annoying.

The OP never mentioned that the methods IN the product didn't work or that the product was faulty or lacking. His sole complaint was that the seller, capitalist swine that he must be....Um...KEPT SELLING his product...

Imagine that.

A seller SELLING...Yipes!

And not a complaint that he sold it cheaper somewhere else...Simply that he sold it to other Warriors for the same price for longer than the buyer expected...

Um...SO WHAT???...Sheesh...GTFOI...

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Michael Oksa

14 years ago

Originally Posted by TLCarroll

The OP never mentioned that the methods IN the product didn't work or that the product was faulty or lacking. His sole complaint was that the seller, capitalist swine that he must be....Um...KEPT SELLING his product...

Imagine that.

A seller SELLING...Yipes!

You are choosing your facts very carefully, and ignoring others completely.

Nobody is faulting a seller for selling. Nobody is saying they are "capitalist swine".

And not a complaint that he sold it cheaper somewhere else...Simply that he sold it to other Warriors for the same price for longer than the buyer expected...

LOL - No, not exactly. The buyer didn't magically make that "expectation" appear out of thin air. The SELLER intentionally created that expectation when they said they would only be selling it for a set amount of time. THE SELLER, NOT THE BUYER. Hello?

Um...SO WHAT???...Sheesh...GTFOI...

So what? There is nothing wrong with using scarcity tactics, as long as you stick to them. The problem is using FALSE SCARCITY. Surely you can see the problem there.

Or maybe not.

You seem to be pretty upset about people expecting sellers to be honest. And, yes, you are upset. People normally don't say "get the **** over it" if they aren't upset.

So, if you don't care about honesty in selling, that's up to you, but don't fault us for expecting and valuing honesty.

All the best,
Michael

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ExRat

14 years ago

Hi TLCarroll,

His sole complaint was that the seller, capitalist swine that he must be....Um...KEPT SELLING his product...

Imagine that.

A seller SELLING...Yipes!

And not a complaint that he sold it cheaper somewhere else...Simply that he sold it to other Warriors for the same price for longer than the buyer expected...

If you read the thread you'll see that what he actually stated in the OP was -

a) when he inquired about the issue, the seller misled him again

b) a question - which was 1) is this fair 2) is this common practice?

Rather than 'continuing to whine' he then pointed out that he felt that this devalued his purchase. He again asked if it was considered fair and commonplace.

Then the OP took a back seat and others (myself included) pointed out that the seller had used false scarcity. The seller then dug a deeper hole for himself by providing his own BS responses.

You can continue to play the apologist, invoke the BS 'anti-capitalism' fallacy and make blanket generalisations tied to insults all you like, but it doesn't change a thing.

Imagine that.

A seller SELLING...Yipes!

That's absolutely pathetic. You must be trying really hard to fail to see the issues, some of which I have highlighted - for example - this behaviour directly affects the sales prospects of other WSO sellers who operate ethically.

That may not be important to you and you may not understand other people's motivations for posting here - that still doesn't give you the right to start throwing insults around directed at everyone else who has taken their time out to contribute to this thread.

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John Taylor

14 years ago

No, no, no... I must not be tempted to
mention pheasant pluckers! ;-)

John

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LMC

14 years ago

3...2...1

Popcorn is done...

Just looking for my seat... excuse me... pardon me... ah here is a good spot.

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TLCarroll

14 years ago

Um. Yeah.

*sigh*

I'll go order more igniter fluid for the torches...Carry on then.

*salutes*

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Kurt

14 years ago

Not only did the seller not live up to his promises, I think he needs a few more demerits for total lack of creativity.

Something like "Hurry, I MAY end this offer at any time"

Or possibly, "After I sell 300, I may take this off the market for a little while, so order now to ensure you won't miss out".

It doesn't take a lot of thought...

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jan roos 14 years ago

So I see this thread is still thriving. Ok, let me explain myself one last time and that's the end of it.

I am a marketer and my main business is building Amazon affiliate sites. I got quite good at it and decided to do a WSO on it. I am not a WSO junkie who's only business is creating and selling WSO's btw. (not that there is anyting wrong with that)

Now onwards, The plan was to release the WSO to 300 people and then close it in order to launch it outside of the WSO section for a higher price.

I said in the thread that I was going to sell it to 300 people and close the WSO. Now, I should of added that I am closing the WSO only to resell it outside of the forum for a higher price and get affiliates involved etc.

I can see how that could be misinterpreted for sure and for that I apologize. IF I do another WSO I will make sure to state that differently and mention that the price will be going up elsewhere after x amounts of copies were sold.

So what then happened was that the WSO became a big hit and it literally changed people's lives which is cool. In the mean time I started a bigger project of building over 80 sites for myself (practicing what I teach) and therefore the launch outside of the forum kinda got put on the back burner.

What happened next was that lots of people started coming to the thread after they made the purchase and started discussing the project, discussing SEO techniques, posting Aff lnks to other WSO's and so forth which is against the rules here as far as I know and I tried to stop it once as well.

But then I realized that people are actually helping each other and getting a lot of value in there and that it would be selfish of me to try and stop that so I didn't and just let it roll.

What gets me is that people that do not even know me (EXRAT) is trying to call me a crook and dishonest etc. I am one of the most ethical marketers you'll meet mate. Just go and read all the comments on that WSO and you'll see.

Now let's get over this silly little Typical WF drama and get on with business.

Cheers,

Jan
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TLCarroll

14 years ago

Gee...Mebbe I'd be a bit more understanding of all the whimpering IF IT HAD HAPPENED SOONER THAN 10 MONTHS AFTER THE FACT...

Nearly a YEAR later and STILL on about it?...Really?

Oh and those new to the fray who got all indignant, et all...The WSO was closed and what else do ya'll want???...It seems as if ya'll still aren't satisfied.

So now what?...Public execution?

When is it ENOUGH?

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The Revolution is in progress since Spring of 2007!
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espe

14 years ago

not fair :/ just a dirty trick to make more sells

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Victoria Gates

14 years ago

Scarcity is a good tactic but should only be done IF you mean it.

Credibility means a lot in this business.

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Victoria Gates - Digital Marketing Specialist

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Michael Mayo

14 years ago

Hi Victoria,
You do realize that using your WSO as an example of how you handle scarcity and
having your Signature on in your post isn't a good ideal.

You could get your WSO Locked/Deleted because of it.

Just thought you should know.

Hope that Helps,
Have a Great Day!
Michael

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2 replies

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ExRat 14 years ago

Hi Paul,

I didn't see anything in there about 300 copies, but I will freely admit I didn't read every post in the extended thread. The time limit was enough.

See my earlier post and the post the quotes are taken from, which reproduces the original salespage.
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Roger Davis
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Victoria Gates

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Mayo

Hi Victoria,
You do realize that using your WSO as an example of how you handle scarcity and
having your Signature on in your post isn't a good ideal.

You could get your WSO Locked/Deleted because of it.

Just thought you should know.

Hope that Helps,
Have a Great Day!
Michael

Dont know what you mean.

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Victoria Gates - Digital Marketing Specialist

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TLCarroll

14 years ago

Paul,
I know, darlin'...I read this day old thread as it happened...I was reading when you closed the WSO...

S'ok...I give up...They simply wanna argue even after they've won the battle.

I don't get it, but whatever...Hopefully, if no one else challenges them, they'll lose momentum and stop...or not.

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The Revolution is in progress since Spring of 2007!
"I only want to do it once, by myself, for free and never touch it again...EVER...then I'll retire."
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Michael Oksa

14 years ago

I didn't see the WSO in question, so my comments are only based on the other comments in this thread. Also, I just wanted to add that my remarks are not pointed at Jan, but sellers using false scarcity.

My comments have nothing to do with the time that has elapsed.

So...

This is what it comes down to: Intentional false scarcity is a problem. However, we are all human and if a seller learns something about HOW to better use scarcity (or any other sales technique), then I say we can give them a second chance and chalk it up to experience.

Getting back to this specific offer (again, based only on the comments in this thread), the only question seems to be whether or not the seller already had their "second chance" in the WSO. I don't know, because I didn't witness it as it unfolded.

All the best,
Michael

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Bought a WSO that claimed to be closing in few weeks, now it's not, fair?

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