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Underhanded, Dishonest, Or Just Marketing

by jamawebinc
24 replies
Many people in the "how to make money on the internet" niche get a rap from other people as "scammy" or "dishonest" on varying levels.

Let me just throw this out and see what your reaction is.

When a launch is in process and affiliates (which by a conservative estimate I will number at 100 for the sake of this example although I'm sure it's closer to 1000) are sending out this swipe email which contains the following line, or something very similar:

so I asked (the person who made the products name) to make ANOTHER free video to not just tell you about it, but to demonstrate it live:

First off, the person sending this email clearly did not ask the marketer to make the video as it was the marketer who came up with the words to use and in most cases, probably never met the affiliate.

Second, this video was already made or planned to be made. The making of it was not a reaction to a personal request as the email implies.

So what is you're take on this. Underhanded? Dishonest, Just part of marketing?
#discussion #throwing
  • Profile picture of the author lilc800
    I think its a little bit of all of them...

    Most of marketing is lies.. To be honest with you.. People say you can make this much daily.. you never do!

    So they way I look at it.. People just want money
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    • Profile picture of the author ajwilliams
      Man, you hit it on the head......

      Everyone falls for that one when they first start out looking for a way to make money online. I did and so did you probably, you being most of those that are reading this.

      I guess that the seller thinks that the affiliates can't come up with their own words to get prospects over to them.

      Or, could it be that most of their affiliates have not really used the product, so they do not know what to say and need that help.

      I realize that most everything that is sold is done through affiliates in some way. Why else would large companies offer affiliate programs on everything from hair cream to foot powder?

      I know that many affilites work hard to make a living on the intenet and are just doing what they believe is what needs to be done to make it.

      Although, I have seen many affiliate emails that simply say "perhaps you should look into this. It might help you" or something of that nature. I think those are the ones that feel a little squeemish about going all out to describe the product with someone elses words.

      I could go on for a while on this, but let's here from some others out there about how they feel about this. Thanks for opening up this can of worms.

      A J
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      • Profile picture of the author jamawebinc
        It's like, where is the line crossed? When you are trying to instruct others on how to create their businesses online, and you are touting to always be cool to your list and always put the needs of your list first, and never treat them badly, etc.

        What do you think if you write a statement in your email like "I asked him to make a video for you" - when that statement, is nothing but a lie.

        Or, in reality, giving people a swipe file to send to their list, with that statement, that you know is a lie.

        Isn't that just, writing words, to try to get the best response, whether those words are true or not? Because those words are believable rather than something like...

        "He just posted the absolute best marketing video I've ever seen. This is sure to make you $10,000 in the next 30 minutes"

        Maybe it's "not that big a deal".

        Like I said, I'm just opening it up for discussion.
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    • Profile picture of the author EugeneA
      Originally Posted by lilc800 View Post

      I think its a little bit of all of them...

      Most of marketing is lies.. To be honest with you.. People say you can make this much daily.. you never do!

      So they way I look at it.. People just want money
      Heres the thing... you can make as much as they say, With tons of knowhow, hours upon hours of working, and great amounts of luck. :rolleyes:
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  • Profile picture of the author salaka
    Hi

    Just part of marketing BS would be my openion
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  • Profile picture of the author PPC-Coach
    Too true. Marketers that do that crap are not thinking long term and have no regard for the black marks they're putting on the industry. I don't believe all marketing is lies, but there's a lot of b.s. out there.

    I think the only way to stand up to it is to stop buying crap that makes ridiculous promises. Then the marketers won't do it anymore. Fat chance of people not falling for the lies though.
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  • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
    Banned
    On a scale of 1 to 10 with 10 being the highest amount of deception, I'd put this at a 1 or 2. Insignificant. I'd rather worry about real fraud and scams rather than a play on words ... a swipefile, etc.

    Far more concerning to me is fake testimonials, fake income claims, fake performance claims, etc.
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  • Profile picture of the author andyweb
    Marketers, advertisers, salespeople all puff. It's part of the game.

    Yes, it's all a game.

    In some industries saleman's puffery is a requirement for success. Used car sales comes to mind as a great example. It goes so far that one of the problems used car salespeople have in their personal lives is that they get to the point where they actually believe their own baloney even when not at work.

    And, over the decades, ethics have changed, or been bent. 50 years ago, an advertiser would never bring up the name of a competitor and slam them in an ad. It just wasn't ethical, not to mention slanderous or libelous. Since then, attorneys have convinced marketers that truth is an absolute defense, so as long as it's true, it's okay. So, today, we have major corporations naming their competition and telling the world how bad they are. Even showing comparision charts.

    Baloney? Competition? Puffery? Sleazy? All of them?

    That's how the game is played today.

    So, you ask, "what about the purchaser / consumer/ buyer / prospect ?"

    That's the other side of the game board. In today's world of education and instant digital communication, it's expected of YOU to be a good buyer. To be suspicious of all claims.

    The words "due diligence" come up in many high school courses. As do expressions like "Caveat Emptor" which are explained in classes on social studies, economics, and even history.

    The people who sleep through school, or drop out early, or aren't properly parented, become prime targets for sleaze. Which they call lies.

    And yes, some marketers provide this sleaze to affiliates to swipe, because they understand human psychology. They know that many affiliates are lazy or incompetent or both. And the only way to get them to do something is to make it incredibly easy. So that's what they do to get sales.

    Yes, it's a shame. In today's world you have to keep your head up. Those who don't are repeatedly victimized.

    Underhanded? Dishonest?

    Caveat Emptor. That's the way it goes.
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  • Profile picture of the author JamesGw
    It's just marketing, unfortunately. That's you have to do when you don't have brand recognition. It'll hurt more than help in the long term, though.
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  • Profile picture of the author Sandra Martinez
    Originally Posted by jamawebinc View Post

    So what is you're take on this. Underhanded? Dishonest, Just part of marketing?
    My take: a weak business model, and the best way to burn your list.
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  • Profile picture of the author lotsofsnow
    Yes, there are a lot of dishonesty and lies used in marketing.

    But it does not have to be that way.

    Try it for yourself:

    Tell the truth and you will make A LOT more money.

    All these shady "gurus" are here today and gone tomorrow. I am in this industry since 1999 and I have seen many things come and go.

    If you do things right and treat people right you will have more fun and more business in the long run.

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  • Profile picture of the author BIG Mike
    Banned
    I want to add something to Andyweb's insightful comments - this sort of thing has been around for as long as humans have been involved in any kind of commerce, whether it involved money, goods, services or whatever.

    As I've often said in the past in response to posts like these, this behavior is represents a smallish percentage of those in business. Unfortunately, they get all the press so on the surface it appears that just about everyone is a bit scammy.
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  • Profile picture of the author Austin357
    I guess those play of words and the infamous "fear of loss" on these type of offers will always exist. I try and focus on the product itself and see what kind of real value it offers. At the end of the day, we are all marketers and our goal is trying to get people to look, click and take action on our offers.
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    • Profile picture of the author rts2271
      The excuse of "It's just marketing" does not fly. Ethics are ethics and if you are going to exaggerate or lie, then you will also rip off your customer base. You can successfully market your business and products without resorting to lying or exaggerating. Look at the hoopla with Maybeline and it's photoshopping the results from use of it's products with Julia Roberts. Now Maybeline has its image damaged, Julia Roberts has had damage to her brand and women are up in arms about being lied too.

      I prefer to be able to sleep at night and know I am doing right by my clients.
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  • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
    Originally Posted by jamawebinc View Post

    So what is you're take on this. Underhanded? Dishonest, Just part of marketing?
    All of the above.

    I don't deal in an underhanded or dishonest fashion with my list, so when someone provides an email like this in their affiliate centre, I just don't use it. Instead, I write my own email, in which I tell the truth and give my honest opinion of the product.

    But I don't get a bug up my arse and start raising hell about how underhanded and dishonest it was to put that email in the affiliate centre. That's just marketing.

    And besides, if there weren't people like that all over this industry, I would have to do something else to brand myself instead of just being honest. It would probably be more difficult.
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    • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
      Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

      All of the above.

      I don't deal in an underhanded or dishonest fashion with my list, so when someone provides an email like this in their affiliate centre, I just don't use it. Instead, I write my own email, in which I tell the truth and give my honest opinion of the product.

      But I don't get a bug up my arse and start raising hell about how underhanded and dishonest it was to put that email in the affiliate centre. That's just marketing.

      And besides, if there weren't people like that all over this industry, I would have to do something else to brand myself instead of just being honest. It would probably be more difficult.
      That pretty much sums it up for me with the exception of the last sentence, which I disagree with. If you have no established relationship with a potential customer, that person doesn't know if you're honest or not. If they've been burnt by dishonest marketers before then the old, "once bitten, twice shy" axiom applies, IMO, making it more difficult to establish trust with them. Honesty doesn't set you apart until after a certain level of trust is established, not before.

      I think part of the problem with "dishonesty" is that people say and do things online that they wouldn't in person. They see a faceless public as opposed to real individuals. Some of these folks aren't necessarily being intentionally dishonest, they've been taught this is how it's done. Rather than thinking about what they're doing and saying they just follow instructions. They play by the rules they've been taught, like it's a game.

      If those same people were sitting across the table from them perhaps most of the dishonest marketers wouldn't lie to them. The scammers would I'm sure, and perhaps I'm being naive, but I have faith that most people would not tell the same marketing lies to someone face-to-face that they tell in digital form to a faceless email list.

      The lesson for newbies is this: if you don't want to build a reputation for dishonesty, don't say anything in your emails that you wouldn't say in person to a friend; and don't say anything you can't explain to a judge ... because every single person on your list is your judge.
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    • Profile picture of the author tpw
      Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

      All of the above.

      I don't deal in an underhanded or dishonest fashion with my list, so when someone provides an email like this in their affiliate centre, I just don't use it. Instead, I write my own email, in which I tell the truth and give my honest opinion of the product.

      But I don't get a bug up my arse and start raising hell about how underhanded and dishonest it was to put that email in the affiliate centre. That's just marketing.

      And besides, if there weren't people like that all over this industry, I would have to do something else to brand myself instead of just being honest. It would probably be more difficult.

      LOL

      I am starting to think that Caliban and I were separated at birth, but then I look closer and see that just cannot be the case. :p

      I always put my own thoughts down about the product when I send the email, and I never use the swipe files provided, except to understand what the seller thought the products' good points were.

      I actually have a goal to use my own words to describe the product, to set myself apart (branding) from those who were too lazy to take two minutes to do the same for their own lists.

      Yeah, yeah... I know...

      Most people aren't "too lazy".... They just don't know what to write...

      But even if you were to write a gibberish description of the product, people would be more inclined to look at the sales copy to see if it is something they really want for themselves, because they know you recommend good products...

      Case In Point: Mike Lantz Have you read some of his mailings? He seems to do all right in the sales dept, despite how he describes the products he lists as WSO of the Day.
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      • Profile picture of the author TracyNeedham
        Originally Posted by tpw View Post

        LOL

        I always put my own thoughts down about the product when I send the email, and I never use the swipe files provided, except to understand what the seller thought the products' good points were.

        (snip)

        But even if you were to write a gibberish description of the product, people would be more inclined to look at the sales copy to see if it is something they really want for themselves, because they know you recommend good products...
        As a copywriter, I always write my own because no one else's email swipe is going to have my tone and personality anyway. And, OK, I often think I can do it better. LOL

        But as Bill said, it IS useful to have those swipes to see what the seller was thinking.

        And, if you're not good at writing email copy, those swipes are good to have. I don't agree that even a gibberish description will work because I've seen gibberish that didn't remotely resemble the selling points of the product.

        But I would recommend taking those fake-y lines out because more than likely your list is getting the same exact email from someone else and it just makes you look silly.

        Instead, take 2 seconds to note how you know the seller or what you plan to do with the product or something that's a bit more personal.
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        • Profile picture of the author Chris Sorrell
          There's billion dollar marketing frauds going on all around you, not just on some piddly product launch designed to hook the many moronic fools of the internet marketing world. Look at any picture of a women advertising almost any kind of product = photoshopped to within an inch of their life. You end up with someone like Julia Robert's who's around 47 I believe, getting made to look like she's got the skin of a 2 year old toddler.

          Frauds, lies and deception are a part of life just as much as breathing. If you wanted to avoid all of that then avoid all contact with human beings and anywhere where there's any kind of financial transactions whatsoever. So, someowhere like the moon maybe?
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  • Profile picture of the author Lucas Adamski
    There is a lot of dishonesty in marketing, especially IM but also other niches. Still I see some trendy of selected few individuals that do really well being totally transparent and honest. Now, it's not a standard but maybe that's where the future is heading to?
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  • Profile picture of the author gerry.c
    I wouldn't write a JV/Affiliate marketing letter in this way... yes, it's a little sneaky. And, it's also a sign of a lazy affiliate/JV who just doesn't want to personalize or stand behind a product they promote by investing anything "real" into it.

    If anything... it's a good indicator to the receiver of who's list to unsubscribe from. My JV partners that perform best, almost always either a) write their own version of a letter or b) customize my pre-written letter to be much more personal.
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  • Profile picture of the author George Wright
    Dear Affiliates,

    I haven't made a video for this launch yet and don't want to bother with it unless enough of you want it.

    Drop me a line and ask for a video, with a lot of interest I'll make one.

    Thanks,

    Mr. Marketer.....




    It could happen

    George Wright
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  • Profile picture of the author DogScout
    Frauds, lies and deception... When I get 10 exact duplicate emails... all with the same personal experience... from people whose lists I had already opted out of...

    This ex-used car salesman knows I was 100% above board and NEVER told a customer something I thought they wanted to hear or make up an answer to a question I didn't know. It is the wrong way to do business, but unfortunately, honesty is the biggest handicap in business!

    (& it'd be a great business if it were not for the damn customers!)

    LMAO!!!
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