Exactly who are you calling a douchebag?

44 replies
I was recently sent one of the latest clickbank promotion products presented with a video on the sales page. Near the beginning of this 25 minute video the owner of this product referred to the common collective of gurus (or perhaps just other IMers in general), as douche-bags. Without naming names or products he went on to slur them in an attempt to build credibility for his own product.

Oddly, it was one of those gurus that actually sent me the link hoping to make an affiliate sale.

This post is not about how I feel about gurus, but how so many marketers, including the gurus themselves, use uncomplimentary remarks about other gurus (IMers) in order to promote their own product.

In my mind, it makes the presenter look small, even pathetic.

As soon as I hear stuff like this in video presentations now, I am inclined to dismiss the product and the person behind it. Firstly, if you cannot back up your slurs with concrete examples and start naming names, then to me you are doing yourself a disservice by not being factual or relevant in your delivery. Furthermore, it is spineless. I would respect you much more if you gave me specific examples.

Secondly, it does nothing for your product to diss your competition. And I for one certainly do not want to waste my time on a video with no controls listening to unsubstantiated comments. If you got something that's worth my time, then just deliver it to me like a someone who really believes in their own product. Maybe this goes against standard copywriting strategy, but it just ain't working on me.

Is it working on you?
#calling #douchebag
  • I have to agree with you here on this one Marty. I personally don't want to deal with anyone who is not mature enough to find words other than "douche bag" when describing someone. I think it says a whole lot about that person. The old saying "Treat others how you want to be treated" rings true here. I just feel like if they're saying about someone else, what about me?
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  • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
    Banned
    Originally Posted by Marty S View Post

    Oddly, it was one of those gurus that actually sent me the link hoping to make an affiliate sale.
    They deserve one another!
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    • Profile picture of the author David Morris
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

      They deserve one another!
      LOL..Funny, even though I didn't get it..:rolleyes:
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      • Profile picture of the author Heidi White
        Originally Posted by David Morris View Post

        LOL..Funny, even though I didn't get it..:rolleyes:
        Totally, David

        had the same reaction...


        :p
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        • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
          Banned
          Originally Posted by Heidi White View Post

          Originally Posted by David Morris View Post

          LOL..Funny, even though I didn't get it..:rolleyes:
          Totally, David

          had the same reaction... :p
          Oops, sorry, wasn't trying to be "mysterious", there. They're not funny anyway, if you have to explain them, but I was only trying to allude to the fact that if one guru is trying to market something by calling other gurus "douchebags", while the affiliate who was promoting the product was himself one of the people referred to on the sales page as a "douchebag", then they're both as stupid as each other - that's all. As Bob Puddy wisely mentions just above, marketing to the disaffected (and especially marketing to them as "the disaffected" and trying to make them more disaffected) isn't necessarily an optimal approach, to put it politely. But there you are: these people are gurus. It must be true: they say so themselves.
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  • Profile picture of the author RayWhittaker
    I've seen a few marketers use this tactic.

    The thing is I don't think they acually believe what their saying; it's just some kind of reverse hype marketing.

    They're obviously targeting the people who have tried and, so far, failed to build an IM business. You know the ones who haven't taken responsibility for their own failure and decided to blame their misfortune on the successful 'gurus'.

    The tactic probably gets sales and that's all they are concerned about really.
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    • Profile picture of the author SKWeaver
      Originally Posted by RayWhittaker View Post

      I've seen a few marketers use this tactic.
      They're obviously targeting the people who have tried and, so far, failed to build an IM business. You know the ones who haven't taken responsibility for their own failure and decided to blame their misfortune on the successful 'gurus'.
      This comment is spot on! The name calling is obviously poor form and leaves a bad taste in your mouth. But the whole approach of empathizing with people who haven't been successful because they haven't taken any responsibility (or action) obviously sells. After all, it's a HUGE market with a desperate need!
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      • Profile picture of the author Targeted Traffic
        Bashing the competition makes you look petty and foolish. Not only are you giving people an alternative to your product or service, you're telling them that you're AFRAID, and it looks like you're so much afraid of your competition that you are going on the defensive and attacking them. tsk tsk..Waste of energy and Time...:rolleyes:
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        • Profile picture of the author Raydal
          Originally Posted by Targeted Traffic View Post

          Bashing the competition makes you look petty and foolish. Not only are you giving people an alternative to your product or service, you're telling them that you're AFRAID, and it looks like you're so much afraid of your competition that you are going on the defensive and attacking them. tsk tsk..Waste of energy and Time...:rolleyes:
          In the context of the original post, the gurus are not the competition.
          They are the common enemy. It's an "us vs. them" situation. It's not
          a matter of "buy my products because they are better than those
          of the gurus".

          In fact, there are no comparison made on the product level--so that
          my SEO software is better than that of the "gurus". It's a matter of
          giving the prospect a REASON WHY they have failed in the past. And
          the "gurus" are to blame, not them.

          So all the post about not hitting the competition don't apply to this
          discussion in my humble opinion.

          The technique fits in with "What XXXXX don't want you to know"
          Where XXXXXX is some authority figure. This figure may not even
          be selling a product that competes with yours. But people always
          believe that people in authority are hiding some secret from them.

          -Ray Edwards
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          The most powerful and concentrated copywriting training online today bar none! Autoresponder Writing Email SECRETS
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      • Profile picture of the author RayWhittaker
        I didn't say people don't take action. I think this is a fallacy that the IM world puts about that people are lazy and don't get off their butts.

        I've been in the position of buying IM business systems and not able to make them work. Some are basically crap but I don't blame the guru that sold it to me. They may have essential things missing or I may have missed an important lesson. Whatever the reason, I've still had some value.

        What I said is people don't take responsibility for their own mistakes. That's not the same as taking the blame. Taking responsibility is saying 'OK, this didn't work as I thought it would. What do I do about it'. Rather than saying 'this doesn't work, that b*****d lied to me'!

        Having said that, there should be responsibility on both sides of the transaction. Maybe some of the gurus have forgotten that. Does anyone know another industry where a 90% failure rate is acceptable?


        Originally Posted by SKWeaver View Post

        This comment is spot on! The name calling is obviously poor form and leaves a bad taste in your mouth. But the whole approach of empathizing with people who haven't been successful because they haven't taken any responsibility (or action) obviously sells. After all, it's a HUGE market with a desperate need!
        Originally Posted by RayWhittaker View Post

        I've seen a few marketers use this tactic.

        The thing is I don't think they acually believe what their saying; it's just some kind of reverse hype marketing.

        They're obviously targeting the people who have tried and, so far, failed to build an IM business. You know the ones who haven't taken responsibility for their own failure and decided to blame their misfortune on the successful 'gurus'.

        The tactic probably gets sales and that's all they are concerned about really.
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  • Profile picture of the author cheilman
    I agree with you anyone who can't just stick to what they are trying to sell or information they are giving you isn't worth anyone's time.

    When you have to start calling names about other people it means you really don't believe in the product or service you are trying to sell.
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  • Profile picture of the author Melanie Crouse
    Hey, I'm all for using humor, slang, trendy terms, etc. where they are appropriate. Calling people douchbags, or any other childish derogatory names has no place in business.

    What the heck is wrong with people these days?
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  • Profile picture of the author Doot
    Really on a sales page he called others "douche-bags?" wow that is truly amazing I wouldn't touch that product with a ten foot pole
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  • Profile picture of the author Istvan Horvath
    "Douchebag" or any other similar term is OK - in itself. (At least for me...)

    It becomes an issue when - as described clearly by the OP, if you took the time to read it! - an IMer is using it in order to diminish the value of other IMers (competitors?) to position himself as the 'friend of the masses' who fights against the 'evil douchebags'.

    That's just crappy marketing. If you don't respect your own fellow marketers... I suspect you don't respect your customers either.
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  • Profile picture of the author Chase Shelby
    I have to agree also. This person is either a) one of these "gurus" themselves or b) striving to become one. Either way, he's hurting his own self image by belittling other IMers.

    Also I would think many of their would-be customers could be put off by it.
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  • Profile picture of the author Raydal
    From a persuasion/copywriting point of view, this technique is
    not to bash the gurus, but to capitalize on the general feelings
    of people who have been disappointed thus far with products
    they have already bought from 'gurus'.

    Empathy. I understand your failure and it's not your fault, it's
    the gurus fault.

    This is not a judgment call but a simple explanation of the
    technique.

    -Ray Edwards
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    The most powerful and concentrated copywriting training online today bar none! Autoresponder Writing Email SECRETS
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    • Profile picture of the author MValmont
      I'm a Douchebag
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  • Profile picture of the author Ken Leatherman
    As a young boy (yes, I was young once) one of the first things I learned about selling for the newspaper I worked for, "Is Don't Knock The Other Newspapers. Stress the benefits of your own newspaper and you will get more subscribers".

    And my route manager was right, I won almost ever subscription contest the newspaper ran for 2 years. In fact I won one of the best trips, I had ever been on as a kid, and a $25.00 savings bond in my 3rd contest. And it was because I didn't knock the competition and stressed the benefits of my own newspaper.

    Unfortunately today in the IM world a trend has developed over the last 2 years or so, of "bash the gurus and I'm not like that". As soon as I see that on a sales page or hear it, I'm not about to check it out. I click away if I'm on the net are delete the e-Mail.

    But it is a marketing technique that seems to work and appeals to those who think "Oh Man! This guy has the "gold egg secret". IMO all the "anti--guru" guy does is shoot himself in the foot for having a long term customer. You may get him the first time but the chances of keeping that client for the long term are nil next to none.

    Ken Leatherman

    The Old Geezer
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    • Profile picture of the author David McKee
      Originally Posted by Ken Leatherman View Post

      As a young boy (yes, I was young once) one of the first things I learned about selling for the newspaper I worked for, "Is Don't Knock The Other Newspapers. Stress the benefits of your own newspaper and you will get more subscribers".

      And my route manager was right, I won almost ever subscription contest the newspaper ran for 2 years. In fact I won one of the best trips, I had ever been on as a kid, and a $25.00 savings bond in my 3rd contest. And it was because I didn't knock the competition and stressed the benefits of my own newspaper...
      Wow... I did the same thing in my town... now I don't think there is such a thing as a "paper boy" (yes I am using the old-fashioned sexist name, deal with it). I remember the subscription contests - I won several pro football and basket basketball games, a calculator when they were just invented... same thing too: stress the benefits to the customer, give away a free newspaper to someone you want as a customer.

      Brings me back.

      -DTM
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    • Profile picture of the author Nanaswhimsy
      [QUOTE=Ken Leatherman;4479928]As a young boy (yes, I was young once) one of the first things I learned about selling for the newspaper I worked for, "Is Don't Knock The Other Newspapers. Stress the benefits of your own newspaper and you will get more subscribers".

      That s Soooo true!

      Let's see if I can show my age:

      "You catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar!"
      (Sorry, just seemed appropriate response to "douchbag" LOL

      Suzanne
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  • Profile picture of the author Robert Puddy
    Rich people admire other successful people; poor people resent them. If you view wealthy people as bad..., you can never be rich..." T.H.E.
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  • Profile picture of the author Ansar Pasha
    Banned
    You guys are failing to see this from "average Joe's" point of view... yes, you might think it's cheesy and stupid. But the "us against them" positioning works.

    Same stuff goes on in other industries and I don't see any marketers, or even "average Joe's" whining about them (because from what THEY'VE (prospect) experienced, it's true) ... in the weight loss/bodybuilding/health industries, it's the evil corporate pill pushers who promise magic results for sitting on ye olde ass.

    What makes you think it's any less effective for someone who's just getting into marketing or isn't hip to these direct response tactics?

    Don't let personal judgements and feelings stop you from doing what has worked, is working, and what will work.

    That said, as experienced marketers (or at least, those of us who know what's going on behind the message), it's plain and pure BS. I wish some of these guys could just put as much effort into creating a good product, instead of bash other crappy products to try and sell their own.

    Ansar
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  • Profile picture of the author imback
    Guru's are fake! Imers are real!

    The warrior forum over the past year has had more Guru's than any other website I belong too. I am sure they stick around because of the amount of money they bring the WF. I miss the 08' 09' years when it wasn't so hard to understand a sales copy

    CHAD
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    • Profile picture of the author Heidi White
      Originally Posted by imback View Post

      Guru's are fake! Imers are real!

      The warrior forum over the past year has had more Guru's than any other website I belong too. I am sure they stick around because of the amount of money they bring the WF. I miss the 08' 09' years when it wasn't so hard to understand a sales copy

      CHAD

      Guru's use real names, Imers use code names
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  • Profile picture of the author RyanHend
    Some marketers like to put down others just to build their position. It's a negative form of marketing
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  • Profile picture of the author Willie Crawford
    It's just a marketing ploy designed to get readers
    emotionally charged, even if on a subconscious level.

    Emotionally charged readers are more likely to
    respond.

    Willie
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  • Profile picture of the author Jaymark
    You make some very sound points. It is never a constructive thing to slam another person or their products. In sales we learn that it is always best to compliment the competition. Say that they make great products but show them why yours is superior.
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  • Profile picture of the author JasonParker
    Originally Posted by Marty S View Post

    I was recently sent one of the latest clickbank promotion products presented with a video on the sales page. Near the beginning of this 25 minute video the owner of this product referred to the common collective of gurus (or perhaps just other IMers in general), as douche-bags. Without naming names or products he went on to slur them in an attempt to build credibility for his own product.

    Oddly, it was one of those gurus that actually sent me the link hoping to make an affiliate sale.

    This post is not about how I feel about gurus, but how so many marketers, including the gurus themselves, use uncomplimentary remarks about other gurus (IMers) in order to promote their own product.

    In my mind, it makes the presenter look small, even pathetic.

    As soon as I hear stuff like this in video presentations now, I am inclined to dismiss the product and the person behind it. Firstly, if you cannot back up your slurs with concrete examples and start naming names, then to me you are doing yourself a disservice by not being factual or relevant in your delivery. Furthermore, it is spineless. I would respect you much more if you gave me specific examples.

    Secondly, it does nothing for your product to diss your competition. And I for one certainly do not want to waste my time on a video with no controls listening to unsubstantiated comments. If you got something that's worth my time, then just deliver it to me like a someone who really believes in their own product. Maybe this goes against standard copywriting strategy, but it just ain't working on me.

    Is it working on you?
    Bashing your competitors... goes against 100% Claude Hopkins 101...

    But the way they're doing it is also "Negative Optism" which is David Garfinkel 101...

    It's powerful stuff to connect with the prospect in an empathetic way like that.

    They have a bonding moment as they connect with the same strong emotions about "scammers" and what not.

    That said...

    It's pretty funny how someone will promote a sales page that's bashing their own sales page.

    What's even funnier is that the same copywriter who wrote the last sales page that the current sales page is bashing is the same copywriter who wrote the current sales page that's bashing the other one.

    lol...

    It's an entertainment industry.

    I'm not saying what's right or wrong... I'm not going to bring my opinions in on this.

    I'm just pointing out a few things that are happening.

    I DO think this stuff is both powerful and funny.

    I wouldn't ever do it, but it's funny to me and it's certainly powerful.
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  • Profile picture of the author handy
    They should focus on the quality of their own product instead of bashing the competition!
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  • Profile picture of the author Jim X
    That kind of stuff turns me off to a product real quick.

    It seems as though they are saying "These guys are bad because they try to trick you into buying their products by showing you all this hype. I'm better than that." But they turn around and do the EXACT same thing in their video (or sales page)!! So it's bad if those guys do it, but if I do it in the guise of criticizing others for doing it, it's OK. HUH?

    Oh yeah, I've also noticed that some of the new products that bash the last big launch are from the same people. Try and figure that one out.

    I don't have a product to sell yet but I've already decided to be honest and positive with people. I agree 100% with Ken Leatherman's post. I believe in stressing the benefits of my product rather than bashing my competitors.

    And if I ever try to pull any kind of crap, I expect you guys to call me out!

    James
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    • Profile picture of the author BillyBee
      The term "guru" doesn't really have any meaning anymore.

      It's become this diaphanous, slippery term, sort of like when people gripe about "The System" failing us, or how "They" are out to get you, or how "The Man" is trying to hold you down. Any time I see people in the forum railing against "gurus" it usually strikes me as misplaced anger.
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  • Profile picture of the author Daniel Harper
    Hmmmm....

    There's a vein of "blame the customer" running through this thread.

    Look, I'm not going to weigh in on the merits or appropriateness of calling someone a douchebag on a sales page (although I do exactly that inside one of my products), but anyone who's operated in this space for more than 6 months knows (or should know) that there are some truly vile people involved in IM.

    And some of them are at the top of the food chain.

    Not all.

    Not everyone.

    But let's be real.

    And blaming customers for being angry and upset about getting ripped of by these scammers is bull****.

    Some people don't succeed because they aren't willing to do what it takes.

    Others don't succeed because a bunch of scammy douchebags promise them the world and then deliver phony "systems" into their hands that have never worked and NEVER WILL.
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  • Profile picture of the author m2carbine
    As I do agree that bashing other so called gurus and calling them names may
    illicit a negative mark from a readers point of view, it is on the attention it creates thaat makes it a bit "effective" if the term would suffice that is.

    Being effective in a sense that it has caused attention, proof enough of this discussion. Advertising need not be always positive advertising and we have seen a number of products out there that trash each other out. . . Pepsi and Coke, Verizon and AT&T and so on and so forth. The question is that would it make for a good marketing strategy or would it be one marketing mistake? This being the case, well the results would definitely prove its worth.
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  • Profile picture of the author royljestr
    Yeah it's funny too how all of these guys claim to NOT be gurus. Well...maybe THAT'S the problem!!! Maybe we need some REAL gurus to start teaching this stuff
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  • Profile picture of the author Rod Cortez
    Hey, not all d-bags are created equal.......

    RoD
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    "Your personal philosophy is the greatest determining factor in how your life works out."
    - Jim Rohn
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  • Profile picture of the author N4PGW
    "Guru" originated as a term for spiritual leader or teacher. In the west, it been used for just "Teacher or leader" usually of a technical field and not necessarily religious.

    So I find it amusing to hear them say bad things about gurus. "I hate teachers, don't you? If so, buy my product and I'll be proud to be your teacher."

    Then there is the love triangle. One guru uses an actress to show the fakery of other gurus with push button affiliate software and tells you that the guru who has a russian programmer is fake. Then the guru with the russian programmer complains about the one who wrote the program for another guru who didn't use it. Then the guru who wrote the program for the guru complains about the guru with the fake actress.

    They each claim to have the only working version of what must be the same software for affiliate marketing.

    I know it is all marketing. As Densel Washington says in one of his movies: "Don't Bull sh.. the bull sh..er! By now most people in this niche know how the game is played and it is ridiculous what some marketers are trying to pull on the rest of us.

    I have come to the conclusion that all these newfound twists to making instant money will be fun to test AFTER one's business is operating well enough to support the time and money to test it. Otherwise, it is better to stick to the tried and true basics that have always worked and still work today to build a genuine income.

    Everyone who teaches someone how to make money is a 'guru'. Some are considerate and caring, others are bad and douchebags. It is up to you to choose which one you want to be and not worry about what someone calls you.
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  • Profile picture of the author N4PGW
    I just thought of an important point. What kind of attitude do people have that run to the product sellers who are using "bash the other guy" advertisiing?

    It is VERY NEGATIVE!

    The read all that negative crap, believe all that negative crap and become that negative crap. And negative crap ain't gonna make it in this business no matter what they buy!

    They are part of the infamous "95%"
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  • Profile picture of the author DPM70
    I don't know about the word "douchebag" - I got a great little (oxymoron?) chuckle out of that word when I watched the movie "Kickass" last night.

    What turns me off is the word "guru". Unless you're talking about The Beatles in their Revolver/Maharishi days or your man out of Gang Starr, or even Guru Josh from the Madchester 90's rave era, I don't even want to know.
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    I don't build in order to have clients. I have clients in order to build. - Ayn Rand
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    • Profile picture of the author myob
      It's really an insult to douchebags and a$$holes everywhere to be called a "guru".
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      • Profile picture of the author Karen Blundell
        bottom line, it's a marketing ploy, pure and simple as Willie and others pointed out, albeit a very tacky one, in my humble opinion. I would never use it and I won't buy from someone who uses it.
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  • Profile picture of the author g36
    Originally Posted by Marty S View Post

    Oddly, it was one of those gurus that actually sent me the link hoping to make an affiliate sale.
    Maybe he didn't watch the presentation before promoting?
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    :)

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