Do The Nice (Internet Marketing) Guys Really Finish Last?

48 replies
I'm sure by now you've heard the latest report that's dominating news and talk radio. About the latest research study that said the more arrogant, pushy, selfish, or in a word meaner you are the more you earn. In fact, it said the mearner bosses, managers and employees can earn up to $10,000 more than their nicer counterparts?

Do you agree or disagree?

Personally I'm wondering how long they earn the $10,000. In other words how long do those people last in the long run by being meaner, pushier and more arrogant?

What's your thoughts or experiences?
#finish #guys #internet #marketing #nice
  • Profile picture of the author JamesGw
    I think it has to do with mentality more than anything else. Those type of people put earnings first, whereas money might not be as important to a "nicer" person. That said, you can still market very successfully and do very well if you're a nice person. You just need to have your head in the right place.

    Priorities, man.

    If you can keep a cool head and still really care about how much you earn, I'm sure you can do better than the "mean" people. From my experience, a lot of them are mean due to stress from wanting to do well.
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  • Profile picture of the author JasonParker
    That's probably true.

    But I also think it's possible to not be a pansy but also be a nice person at the same time.

    It really comes down to confidence rather than being nice or mean.

    Unfortunately a lot of nice people seem to not have much confidence in their abilities.

    I guess...

    What do I know
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  • Profile picture of the author uebomoyi
    I believe it's true to a certain degree and false to a certain degree. I feel as if the meaner a boss is, the more resistance and anger he'll create for his workers---Then these workers will probably start looking for another place to work. However, some people need a kick in the butt sometimes in order to get the ball rolling. For example, a trainer who is trying to help someone lose 20lbs in a month--- do you think he would be more effective in helping them if he was strict and harsh about their diet and workout routine or if he was nice and lenient?
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  • Profile picture of the author Steven Miranda
    Yes, I think it is true to a certain extent but never become someone you are not to chase the love of money. It would come back to bite you in the you know... Treat others as you would like to be treated and be the best you can while being profitable.
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    • Profile picture of the author uebomoyi
      Originally Posted by Steven Miranda View Post

      Yes, I think it is true to a certain extent but never become someone you are not to chase the love of money. It would come back to bite you in the you know... Treat others as you would like to be treated and be the best you can while being profitable.
      I agree completely. You can have all the money in the world and manipulate many people to get it, but in the end you could be very lonely and have no friends and a lot of people wishing evil upon you. Some people who are money hungry need to ask themselves what they are going to do with all of that money once they get it. At times I think it's the simple things in life we forget like the love of family and friends. If we lost them over money, which is replaceable, life would be much more miserable. So people should really focus on helping their fellow man instead of taking advantage of him.
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  • Profile picture of the author RobertMandrake
    It could be true... sort of the old "ask for what you want" etc. may come off as pushy, etc.
    But, then those that are always "asking for what they want" end up getting what they want more often than those that expect to have "what they want" fall on their head out of the sky...


    Robert
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    • Profile picture of the author lisakleinweber
      I think the question isn't even important if you look at this in terms of quality of life. A person who is capable of being mean to accomplish financial goals is not going to be able to enjoy life on anything more than a surface level.

      If real joy and happiness is important to you, then being 'mean' has no place in your life whether it can bring you an extra $10,000 or not.
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  • Profile picture of the author harrel
    oh come on!
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  • Profile picture of the author Rod Cortez
    I don't buy it for one second because a person can still be firm and assertive without having to be pushy or a complete a-hole. It's okay to be nice, just not too nice where one becomes a door mat.

    RoD
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  • Profile picture of the author gmcdonald
    Good question Niche Man.
    I would relate business to the dating game of life. We all see the man who plays the woman to the T and is "meaner" and rude and flaky typically get many woman. But watch that man ten years from now, still running the same game, quick dates, short relationships. Now the man that is nice , cordial, reliable. This man gets the right girl and keeps her. I business do you want to be the guy always chasing the new deal cause you burned the old, or the one who has long term consistent revenue streams. Be nice, regardless of how much money you see the a-hole making. And Smile even when your typing.
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  • Profile picture of the author YasirYar
    Unfortunately that is the case with almost everything nowadays. People that are willing to override their conscience usually get farther than others. But I'm too scared of Karma to let the possibility of more money legitimize ripping off others.
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  • Profile picture of the author Keen creations
    Tough question but overall I believe you can be a nice person but still get **** done...period
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    • Profile picture of the author myob
      Whether you are running a business or managing a team as an employee, you are held to certain performance standards.

      As a business owner, minimum standards are required to stay in business, and as a manager you are expected to meet specific objectives.

      In such situations you must in turn set minimum performance standards for those under you. Dealing with substandard performance or disciplinary issues are often not "nice".

      Leaders who can communicate vision, know how to motivate, make tough decisions, and act decisively are the ones who are in demand and make the big bucks.

      Being "mean", "pushy" or even seeming to be "arrogant" in the context of demanding mission expectations are actually some of the many virtues of effective leadership.
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  • Profile picture of the author oda
    I don't think being an A-hole and ripping people off go hand in hand.

    The arrogant person is more likely to ask for the sale or the signature a lot more times than the quite nice guy. The arrogant guy uses PERSISTANCE and therefore succeeds.

    The nice guy will see a negative reaction (Objection) and may back down from chasing the end result to spare the feelings etc of the potential buyer.
    (empathy)

    I think its finding a balance between being an A-hole and being a nice guy. Sometimes people need that A-hole to get moving, other times they need the nice guy.

    The A-hole will get more money up front, the nice guy will get more in the longer term through repeat business.

    BALANCE and realising that Confidence is often mistaken as arrogance.

    My 2 Cents

    Oda
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  • Profile picture of the author g36
    Disagree. In fact, nice guys are the ones who make more money, because simply they're nice. Nice people are likeable, sometimes people hire someone not because he's skillful, but because he's nice.
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    :)

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  • Profile picture of the author Ofthemix
    Now that you mention it, I've noticed in corporate America that most people who are higher up on the pay ladder usually don't have the nicest attitudes. Then again, these are also the people who are ridiculously business focused and dedicated to their jobs.
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    • Profile picture of the author advertisethis
      All of the most effective sales copy on the internet is solidly open, honest, straight-forward, and completely void of any unwarranted hype... Indeed. :rolleyes:

      The reality is we have a lot of options in every sphere of life that come down to personal values stemming from our own individual concepts of happiness and success.
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  • Profile picture of the author drmani
    Originally Posted by The Niche Man View Post

    ... the more arrogant, pushy, selfish, or in a word meaner you are the more you earn. In fact, it said the meaner bosses, managers and employees can earn up to $10,000 more than their nicer counterparts?

    Do you agree or disagree?

    In a very general sense, I agree with that. "Nicer" people do tend
    to be less pushy - both with others and themselves... and so make
    less money or attain higher levels of a conventionally defined "success".

    But change the frame of reference to "being happy with yourself",
    and "nice" people trump the "dirty bastiches" all day long!

    For oneself, it's always a 'trial and error' process to set the line
    you won't cross. It's NICE to be able to be NASTY when necessary!!!

    It's also an art form to APPEAR to be Mr.Nice Guy - while actually
    being something totally different ;-)

    All success
    Dr.Mani
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  • Profile picture of the author Mukul Verma
    I dont think nice people finish last (Pushover may).

    Nice people who build good business systems and marketing and customer service wont

    Nice people who build poor business systems and marketing and customer service will finish last.

    Cheers,
    Mukul
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  • Profile picture of the author michaelcorvin
    Originally Posted by The Niche Man View Post

    I'm sure by now you've heard the latest report that's dominating news and talk radio. About the latest research study that said the more arrogant, pushy, selfish, or in a word meaner you are the more you earn. In fact, it said the mearner bosses, managers and employees can earn up to $10,000 more than their nicer counterparts?

    Do you agree or disagree?

    Personally I'm wondering how long they earn the $10,000. In other words how long do those people last in the long run by being meaner, pushier and more arrogant?

    What's your thoughts or experiences?
    I don't think it's an issue of being meaner or nicer. I think it is an issue of confidence. People are more likely to do business with a sales person who is more confident of the product they are selling.

    It's very similar to the old adage the "nice guys finish last" in the dating the world. Which is FALSE...it has nothing to do with being a "nice guy"...it has everything to do with that fact that a woman is looking for a strong confident man.

    Nice, mean...the real issue is be strong, confident in what you are offering and you will go far no matter what you do.

    Michael
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  • Profile picture of the author nicholasb
    I don't personally think it's that there just out right being mean. It's just that they don't take no S**T from others and have the balls or the metaphorical balls (for the Ladies) to stand up for themselves and present their ideas in a confident manner.

    There's a difference between being nice and being a pushover. Sometimes not being a push over will have you classified as an assh*le if that's the case I would rather be an a hole than a push over
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  • Profile picture of the author Shannon Herod
    I do not think that the nice guys finish last. However, if you do not have thick skin you will not to be able to make it in this game.

    Also, I think that it is true when they say that people that are not very agreeable get further. The reason being is because they have an opinion. People like people that stand out. You cannot stand out if you just follow the crowd. You need to have an opinion and you need to stand on that opinion. If you don't have an opinion or you don't stand out you're just another marketer.
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    • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
      Originally Posted by myob View Post

      Whether you are running a business or managing a team as an employee, you are held to certain performance standards.

      As a business owner, minimum standards are required to stay in business, and as a manager you are expected to meet specific objectives.

      In such situations you must in turn set minimum performance standards for those under you. Dealing with substandard performance or disciplinary issues are often not "nice".

      Leaders who can communicate vision, know how to motivate, make tough decisions, and act decisively are the ones who are in demand and make the big bucks.

      Being "mean", "pushy" or even seeming to be "arrogant" in the context of demanding mission expectations are actually some of the many virtues of effective leadership.
      When I was working my way through college on commission sales, I worked for a small business where the owners could be seen, from the outside, as the kind of aggressive, mean jerks described in the original post.

      Those on the inside knew it was an act. Both owners had the proverbial heart of gold. But they were also astute judges of potential, and had the stones to let you know when you weren't living up to yours.

      Early on, I asked one of them why he was riding me, and not one of the full time salespeople, for basically the same behavior. He looked me right in the eye and said, "because you're better than she is - this is as good as she's ever going to be and you're just getting started."

      Within a few months, I was making as much as she was even though I only worked nights and weekends. It used to piss her off royally when people would come into the showroom, ask for me, and when they found out I wasn't there, they'd leave and come back when I was...
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  • Profile picture of the author glasshalffull
    in the office, people wouldn't be interested in going the extra mile for me if i was a jerk all the time....and at some point you're gonna need them to...that's the way work goes.

    you're work will be affected and it'll reflect badly on you..then the snowball rolls

    same goes with your online biz...leave people with a good taste in their mouth from there first experience with your products and they'll be more likely to come back and buy your next, bigger, more expensive product in the future.

    that is...if you raise the price to meet the true value of your content.
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  • Profile picture of the author Jacob Cuculiza
    Be honest and nice and I think it will pay in the end... :-)
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  • Profile picture of the author FileRev
    Definitely has to do with the mentality.
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  • Profile picture of the author Targeted Traffic
    As to being 'pushy' and arrogant this may be referred to as Authoritarian leadership style, where in the boss doesnt care anything aside from perfect and on-time output. Everything should be how, what were you instructed and when it should be delivered as instructed. The boss directs EVERYTHING and looks at his employees as per output. This can actually be very helpful for a company which is only starting out or the employees are inexperienced. But generally I believe this should normally be used on rare occassions...or when the situation really calls for it.

    But..however...being 'mean' if that would refer to as yelling, using demeaning language, and leading by threats and abusing their power, this is not the authoritarian style, rather it is an abusive, unprofessional style called “bossing people around.” It has no place in a leader's repertoire and I do not believe this will drive you to success both personally professionaly.
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  • Profile picture of the author Harold Lindsey
    Wow what a provocative discussion. I think A-holes and Meaner people do make more money than your typical Nice guy or Nice Gal. Like others have said, most of the time they will usually step on or over anyone or anything to get what they want.

    And unfortunately I think that a lot of them get even worse as time goes on because of in-security, and the sense that others are always after what they have. And in a way, of course we all know that they are usually their worst enemies; and usually self-distruct sooner or later.

    But I do think that most of them will usually out perform a nice person financially if you compare a certain number of both over a long period of time.

    I'll always take the middle ground and be a nice guy, until someone helps me not to be.... Lol.
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  • Profile picture of the author mikelmraz
    Depends on how you define nice ... ?
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  • Profile picture of the author sweety555
    Banned
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    • Profile picture of the author bointer
      This does not hold in sales. If you are mean and pushy you might get one sale but definitely not any resales. To be service minded, is the name of the game.That means be friendly and helpful.
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  • Profile picture of the author gananathan
    Originally Posted by The Niche Man View Post

    I'm sure by now you've heard the latest report that's dominating news and talk radio. About the latest research study that said the more arrogant, pushy, selfish, or in a word meaner you are the more you earn. In fact, it said the mearner bosses, managers and employees can earn up to $10,000 more than their nicer counterparts?

    Do you agree or disagree?

    Personally I'm wondering how long they earn the $10,000. In other words how long do those people last in the long run by being meaner, pushier and more arrogant?

    What's your thoughts or experiences?
    Maybe in a corp env. But in IM, especially if you are a lone wolf, it is a lot easier to be nice and make a great living instead of being mean.

    Try being mean and see how long you last in the IM world. It may work as long as people are able to sense that it is an 'image'. If one is truly mean and people perceive it as such, then they will disappear, in a jiffy.
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    • Profile picture of the author Sandor Verebi
      Greetings Everyone,

      Originally Posted by myob View Post

      Whether you are running a business or managing a team as an employee, you are held to certain performance standards.

      As a business owner, minimum standards are required to stay in business, and as a manager you are expected to meet specific objectives.

      In such situations you must in turn set minimum performance standards for those under you. Dealing with substandard performance or disciplinary issues are often not "nice".
      It goes without saying. But you're there to solve the situation. A good leader knows what those under you are capable off in something, and brings out their best from that. Therefore it is useful if you know your affiliates well.

      Leaders who can communicate vision, know how to motivate, make tough decisions, and act decisively are the ones who are in demand and make the big bucks.
      It should be. Of course, it may be quite a few case, where this is not enforced because of jealousy, envy, malice, etc. The picture may be a bit mixed. LOL

      Being "mean", "pushy" or even seeming to be "arrogant" in the context of demanding mission expectations are actually some of the many virtues of effective leadership.
      Myob, Agreed.

      Originally Posted by drmani View Post

      ... For oneself, it's always a 'trial and error' process to set the line
      you won't cross. It's NICE to be able to be NASTY when necessary!!!

      It's also an art form to APPEAR to be Mr.Nice Guy - while actually
      being something totally different ;-)...
      Well, Dr Mani, I'm sure you know, people obey the WISE governance with smiling. As for beeing totally different - it may be difficult to balancing so that people do not come out what they see is a 'mask'. Yes, it is an art.

      My experience were in some case that if you are too close to a problem, it is possible that you can not weigh objectively. In that case, a good idea might be to ask an impartial outsider's opinion.

      Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe View Post

      ...Early on, I asked one of them why he was riding me, and not one of the full time salespeople, for basically the same behavior. He looked me right in the eye and said, "because you're better than she is - this is as good as she's ever going to be and you're just getting started."

      Within a few months, I was making as much as she was even though I only worked nights and weekends. It used to piss her off royally when people would come into the showroom, ask for me, and when they found out I wasn't there, they'd leave and come back when I was...
      Good story, John. Appreciate it.

      While I read it, I"m pondering whether the professional knowledge and skills she disposed were enough to fulfill she's duty. But, to recognize that is the matter of leadership, always.

      Cheers,

      Sandor
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  • Profile picture of the author dennis19601
    I see some really great comments here!
    I agree with many of them, this is an open question that has a lot of variables, that being said I feel that there is sometimes a fine line between sometimes making the hard choices and being considered an A-hole, so much depends on your perception of what and why it's being done as well as how it affects you personally! (As an example) we all see the videos that play automatically without controls and we pretty much all don't like the fact that we only have 2 choices, ( watch or click away) but it's been tested and proven that in most markets this type will outperform others. So the question is, is the person making this video an A-hole or a smart business person that is not trying to alienate others but just trying to use what works?
    Sometimes you try to make choices that's good for you and your business as well as the other folks around you that may piss someone off!
    The best course of action in my opinion is to treat people with respect and use the golden rule as your guide (and know I don't mean the he who has the gold rule), but you still need to be able to sometimes make the unpopular choices.
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  • I believe nice guys do finished last! Nice guys are easily to be push over. I do believe that you have to provide value to people and understand your worth. Now if you mean you want last long in the business world or know where for that matter. You can't be a push over. Focus on creating a win win situation for all party involve. Most nice guys go for a win lose situation.
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  • Profile picture of the author Big Al
    I think this is from the book "Black Swan"...

    If you jump from a plane without a parachute and start falling 10,000 feet... the first 9,500 feet are ok and you're really flying... it's that last 500ft that's the problem.

    The 'not so nice guys' - and maybe the get rick quick crew - are moving fast and everything seems ok... because that first 9,500 ft are cool... but will they survive the last 500 ft when they've burned their subscribers, shafted their JV partners and ruined their reputations?
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  • Profile picture of the author grover69
    $10,000? Even an extra $10,000 every year? Not worth it. Being mean makes you die sooner too.
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  • Profile picture of the author IsayHey
    When it comes to business, it would be better to be a worse person because if you aren't nice then you won't do any favors for anybody or give out anything, where as if you are nice you will help people out and not charge for certain things.

    Just my two cents.
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  • Profile picture of the author Ansar Pasha
    Banned
    A few weeks back, some jerk backed into my rear view mirror. I was pretty angry about it because they did a runner on me, but luckily, I managed to find 2 breakers that had them in stock...

    Anyway, when I called up the first garage, I asked a few questions about what color it was, and some questions about other parts I needed for my interior that got lost... he was nice and sounded very helpful. I let him know I'll be coming in a little later if I didn't find anywhere closer to pick the parts up from.

    The second garbage, I mean garage I called, same story. Except I could tell the guy sounded like a jerk and wasn't very helpful... I could hear the agitation in his voice as I asked him about what other parts he had in stock for my particular model. He started raising his voice and getting more and more pissed off for no real reason!

    ... Finally, it got to the point where I was extremely irritated and said "Mate, you have a real f***ing attitude problem you know that?"

    "Well if you'd stop asking questions and just get to the point, maybe I'd stop aye?"

    "Yeah, well piss off, I'm not coming in, ever"

    Then I hung up.

    Nice guys win in my book

    Ansar
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  • Profile picture of the author fitz10
    I read another perspective on this issue this morning on CNN: Not nice guys, but cowards, finish last - CNN.com

    Rich Dad, Poor Dad's opinion was that people who are cowards and not able to stand up for what they believe in finish last and that some people with those traits just see themselves as being "agreeable" or "nice guys".
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    • Profile picture of the author larkykid
      Sometimes I get that feeling too. If you are genuinely nice, then it's more likely due to your nature that you would be conscientious and less likely to cut corners. This could result in maybe you reaching your goals at a much slower pace than someone who is perhaps meaner and is ready to do whatever it takes regardless of getting on the wrong side of others.

      Another quality, I seem to detect from some business owners both offline and online is that they are "fly" or like to think they are. But, usually this would come back to bite them in the butt
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  • Profile picture of the author Nick Lawless
    Maybe it's true, but if it is, I think that in general nice people aren't as money focused as the arrogant pushy people. So maybe arrogant people make more money but at the end of the day who likes them??

    You can't take the money with u when u die people!
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    • Profile picture of the author Sandor Verebi
      Originally Posted by Nick Lawless View Post

      Maybe it's true, but if it is, I think that in general nice people aren't as money focused as the arrogant pushy people. So maybe arrogant people make more money but at the end of the day who likes them??
      Hey Nick, I see what you say, but do you suppose those who are arrogant do have a slightest interest in what others think about them? I don't know what would be Madoff's opinion on this, anyway.

      You can't take the money with u when u die people!
      Right. As you know, the path taken in pursuit of wealth says to the world much about one's values as a business leader. Anyway, if I'm not mistaken, there is a song says:

      "It's so easy to laugh, it's so easy to hate;

      It takes guts to be gentle and kind."

      All the best,

      Sandor
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      • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
        Originally Posted by Sandor Verebi View Post

        Right. As you know, the path taken in pursuit of wealth says to the world much about one's values as a business leader. Anyway, if I'm not mistaken, there is a song says:

        "It's so easy to laugh, it's so easy to hate;

        It takes guts to be gentle and kind."

        All the best,

        Sandor
        Sandor, I think a lot of people on here are confusing arrogance and meanness with strength and humility and niceness with weakness.

        Over my lifetime, I've met very successful people who are both considerate and genuinely nice and have a spine of iron.

        And some of the worst, meanest, most arrogant ****s I've ever met were so poor that if pennies were gasoline, they would not be able to fuel a flea's motorcycle around a dewdrop.

        NFL Hall of Famer Cris Carter once told a rookie symposium:

        "A lot of you are going to have a lot of money that you've never had before, and you're afraid it will change you. Money does not change you. It makes you more of whatever you were before you had money."
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        • Profile picture of the author Sandor Verebi
          Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe View Post

          Sandor, I think a lot of people on here are confusing arrogance and meanness with strength and humility and niceness with weakness.
          John, I also think so when I read some of their posts.

          Over my lifetime, I've met very successful people who are both considerate and genuinely nice and have a spine of iron.

          And some of the worst, meanest, most arrogant ****s I've ever met were so poor that if pennies were gasoline, they would not be able to fuel a flea's motorcycle around a dewdrop.
          In my whole life I hardly met people beeing in charge that wanted to hear the truth. They were confident persons by accepting their weaknesses or faults, despite the fact they might not like them.

          The others want to hear what they want to hear and that's how they operate their business and life. Anyway, I read somewhere, that arrogancy usually accompanies insecurity, in order that the arrogant individual still hurts underneath.

          NFL Hall of Famer Cris Carter once told a rookie symposium:

          "A lot of you are going to have a lot of money that you've never had before, and you're afraid it will change you. Money does not change you. It makes you more of whatever you were before you had money."
          How true.

          Cheers,

          Sandor
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  • Profile picture of the author IMWinner
    In a way, I could say that it is true, but in my opinion, it has nothing to do with being mean to people can generate more money. It is being stated that being mean, which I could translate, being strict to your workers is you wanted your office to perform freely and productively. Probably the word mean boss is the strict boss, and I myself am strict when it comes to work so that we could be productive to our customers. If we are weak and kind to our workers, they would at sometimes abuse the boss's kindness. That is why, meaner boss are more successful.
    Mean boss are not bad boss, there are good boss that are mean since it is necessary to impose our rules on them for them to do what they are supposed to be doing.
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  • Profile picture of the author Elion Makkink
    Confidence, it's definitely confidence that sells. This person might be arrogant, but people can't resist his confidence in what he's selling. Of course, it also depends on what you sell. But a balance with being a nice person, and convincing/influencing another to buy with confidence if the formula to sell. (Robert Cialdini - Influence, great read!)
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    Cheers,
    Elion Makkink

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