Some Warriors may find this offensive...

13 years ago

Isn't it ALL about making money ? That's one of the reasons why I try to establish a contact online that is more then just selling or buying. Sometimes this works but most of the time it is ''take the money and run'' ... Spamming is just part of it.

But you got a point there, sure ! I have +25 years offline experience, you can look the customer in the eye and say something...nice.

Online is virtual but in the end I think we have a responsability towards our consience....at least.

PS Put up your public profiles and a correct picture to start with.

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AdwordsMogul 13 years ago

Originally Posted by Gijsbertus

Isn't it ALL about making money ?
.....

PS Put up your public profiles and a correct picture to start with.

There is nothing wrong with making money.

What I'm talking about is spamming the web, which is a widely discussed topic here. Even though nobody calls it that.

You can create products that give people more value than what they are paying for it.

The sad part is that people think IM is about pushing the right buttons and waiting for profits to come in. People think marketers a scammers, and one way or the other we are contributing to that view - spinning articles, autoblogs, comment bots etc.

The point is not about the morality of it. It's about the practicality. In the long run, you're better off creating value (even if it's for the wrong crowd) than trying to get something for nothing.
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johnapo

13 years ago

AdwordsMogul you have a point but nothing will stop people from their desire to exploit situations with one way or the other. It's a battle of good and bad. These methods have short terms results and fortunately make engines better creating new products and new approach to better serve the actual needs of people.

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addykho 13 years ago

I guess those who sell should sell with their heart. There should not be a hit a run product. One should only sell if he or she herself has benefited from the product or system .
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JohnMcCabe 13 years ago

What do I think? I think you're trying to stir the pot to put some attention on your sig (in a legit way).

Many of the things you mention are tools. Whether they create value or garbage lies in the hands of the user.

Just like one person will take a block of wood and a knife, and end up with a pile of shavings, and another person will take the same items and create art.

On the other hand, there are a lot of tools sold by appealing to the dark side, the lazy, the greedy and the 'stick it to the man' types. And the pitch has nothing to do with adding value to anything.

I look at those tool sellers like drug peddlers. They all say 'the junkie is going to get their fix somewhere, why shouldn't I be the one with their money in my pocket?'
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- AdwordsMogul 13 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe
  
  What do I think? I think you're trying to stir the pot to put some attention on your sig (in a legit way).
  
  .....'
  
  Hahaha! I was just waiting for someone to say that!
  
  Mr John McCabe (forgive me if I didn't get that right) , you make a good point, although I can't see how an autoblog will create value?
  
  On the flip site, if people who are in position to make a difference won't, the world will be (and is) overrun with mediocrity.
  
  It's just sad that there isn't much effort on WF to take things to the next level. We all have our selfish motives, and they need to be catered to. However, I just believe we can take some responsibilty, and find ways to create better products for those who give us money.
  
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- WriterWahm 13 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe
  
  What do I think? I think you're trying to stir the pot to put some attention on your sig (in a legit way).
  
  I didn't even notice his sig until you mentioned it.
  
  He does have a point but when it comes down to it, it's about the money. We try to salve our consciences by offering stuff people need but it is about the money.
  
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Zeus66

13 years ago

Email spam often involves what amounts to theft of service. Senders exploit servers they are not paying for. That puts them in a different and much more egregious category than what you call web "spam." At least autobloggers and garbage site creators are paying for hosting and domain names.

John

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Paul Myers 13 years ago

John,

At least autobloggers and garbage site creators are paying for hosting and domain names.

True. But there's a whole other type in the group he's talking about. The "Blast out your illegible garbage (er... spun articles) to every site you can," or "spam the hell out of forums with this nifty crapware," or "backlink your way to millions on other people's blogs and message boards" spammers. Not to mention the social media spammers.

Milton missed a circle.

Paul
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sbucciarel

Banned 13 years ago

Originally Posted by Zeus66

Email spam often involves what amounts to theft of service. Senders exploit servers they are not paying for. That puts them in a different and much more egregious category than what you call web "spam." At least autobloggers and garbage site creators are paying for hosting and domain names.

John

Talk about theft of service, wait til text message marketing starts hitting everyone's cell phones.

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Greg guitar 13 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

Talk about theft of service, wait til text message marketing starts hitting everyone's cell phones.

Agreed, but "spam" calls have been plaguing us for years.

In the past, I've been charged 45 cents just for answering one of those long enough to tell them not to call again before hanging up. (on months when I underestimated the minutes I needed)
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Frank Donovan

13 years ago

Originally Posted by AdwordsMogul

Since this is the biggest IM forum in the world, maybe we have some kind of responsibility. What's your opinion about this?

Actually, you'll find that posts advocating underhand tactics tend to get called out (if not immediately nuked) in this forum.

If you really think the WF is that bad, you haven't spent much time in other IM forums where borderline spamming techniques are often actively encouraged.

Frank

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Nail Yener

13 years ago

When it comes to make more money, people stop worrying about ethics or making the internet a better place. Warrior Forum is just another internet marketing forum and as far as I see, they (some members and admins) are abandoning the rules that made this forum once great in exchange with making more money. Because I cannot see another explanation of allowing a WSO about a spamming software that creates thousands of automatic forum profiles with backlinks. Is this SEO? Is this Internet Marketing? Is this what you would like to see on this forum?

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JohnMcCabe 13 years ago

Originally Posted by AdwordsMogul

Mr John McCabe (forgive me if I didn't get that right) , you make a good point, although I can't see how an autoblog will create value?

My friend, there are autoblogs out there that are well-managed enough that you can't tell they are autoblogs. By skilfully aggregating content from around the web into one place, they do provide value.

The autoblogs you are talking about are indeed garbage, but the result lies in the execution, not the technology.

That's exactly the point I was trying to make with my woodcarving analogy. Some people use tools and materials to create value; others use the same tools and materials to create pollution.
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Paul Myers 13 years ago

Nail,

I cannot see another explanation of allowing a WSO about a spamming software that creates thousands of automatic forum profiles with backlinks.

PM me the link, please.

Paul
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- sueandsteve 13 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Paul Myers
  
  Nail,PM me the link, please.
  
  Paul
  
  I have lots of opinions on ethics... none of them need to matter to anyone else.
  
  But I just downloaded Paul's PDF, and that rocks!!
  
  Steve
  
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omavo

13 years ago

I am against any form of spamming either done creatively or not. SEO should come naturally. Trying to fool the search engines bcos we want to be ranked high will definitely cause bigger problems later.

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Morphius

13 years ago

I totally agree with you, but for the name of the money, it seems OK around here. Look how many people do buy these products?

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Alexa Smith

Banned 13 years ago

Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe

I look at those tool sellers like drug peddlers.

Very neat analogy, John: it encapsulates exactly how I feel about them, too.

Originally Posted by AdwordsMogul

For instance, look at autoblogging. Isn't that "glorifed web spam?"

I think it can actually be done without being "glorified web spam" but in reality it very often isn't.

Originally Posted by AdwordsMogul

Or the blog commenting tools, as well as virtually any kind of bot.

Again, I think - arguably - they can just about be defended (I can't quite remember how people justify "bots", generally, but I know they like to try) though the reality is clearly that they're misused overwhelmingly more often than "decently used" and their creators and vendors are perfectly well aware of that and typically (I won't say "universally") of their own inability to sell them without that being possible.

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espe

13 years ago

i couldn't agree more

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John Mogusar

13 years ago

Spamming of any kind presents problems to the IM community as a whole. People become skeptical of everything they see on the Internet. They are inundated by so much trash that it's too much work to find the good stuff.

That being said, if a method makes money (or it's claimed that it does), then people are going to try it. I don't blame them for trying, and this IM forum is a place to discuss all ethical ways of making money. I don't believe creating spam sites is unethical. If there is a sliding scale, it's certainly less ethical than making money through providing high-quality information, but that doesn't make it unethical.

That being said, it's probably a waste of time for most people compared to what would happen if they invested their time in creating quality content. Google will become much better at filtering trash as time goes by, and people will turn to other ways to find quality information.

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David Keith

13 years ago

google will continue to update their algorithm to not only make any sort of spam content more irrelevant, but it will in fact penalize those who use these tactics.

it is already doing it with several of the updates over the last few years, and the trend will continue.

google is going to continue to find ways to only have sites in its database that are built for human consumption.

they days of any system or strategy that use content created for the purpose of seo and not for humans is numbered. there will always be a very select few that are able to stay slightly ahead of google for a bit and make good money doing it, but google is steadily putting content spam out of business.

this stuff is absolutely blackhat. anything created without your customer in mind is not good for the web. period.

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Clyde

13 years ago

It's not our fault that Google chose to index spammy autoblogs.

I'm a strong believer that we oughta be able to do whatever we want with the blogs we own.

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David Keith 13 years ago

Originally Posted by uniches

It's not our fault that Google chose to index spammy autoblogs.

I'm a strong believer that we oughta be able to do whatever we want with the blogs we own.

you can. but google will catch up to you. and they have the right to do what they want with their search results. which includes penalizing those they feel use blackhat tactics to spam content without their users best interests in mind.
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Alexa Smith Banned 13 years ago

Originally Posted by uniches

It's not our fault that Google chose to index spammy autoblogs.

No, quite right, it isn't. Thankfully, Google's doing something about that, though, with each algorithm update it produces. It's not so easy to rank, I gather, for blogs containing only syndicated content.

Originally Posted by uniches

I'm a strong believer that we oughta be able to do whatever we want with the blogs we own.

It's a view.

A very small minority view, perhaps, if you extend it to breaching people's copyrights (as some autobloggers routinely do) and to many other activities, too, but a view. :confused:
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AdwordsMogul 13 years ago

Originally Posted by uniches

It's not our fault that Google chose to index spammy autoblogs.

I'm a strong believer that we oughta be able to do whatever we want with the blogs we own.

You can look at it this way... you're right.

The point here is that, as John Mogusar suggested creating quality products and content is much more profitable in the long term.

Therefore it's an absolute irony, that on the world's biggest IM forum, the most focus seems to be on the least profitable ways of making money.
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fluffythewondercat 13 years ago

Originally Posted by uniches

I'm a strong believer that we oughta be able to do whatever we want with the blogs we own.

Certainly. And the rest of society is able to react to you accordingly.

Although, now that I think of it, "own" is a little strong. You don't own your domain name, you merely have a lease on it.

I think Google missed a bet by not buying GoDaddy. Take Random Dude My-Blog-Is-Complete-Garbage-and-I'm-A-Spammer. Instead of penalizing him algorithmically (and risk netting innocent dolphins), charge him $1,000 the next time his domain comes up for renewal.

That's how society works in real life. You want to be an egregious wastrel of common resources, we have any number of ways to fine and even arrest you.

fLufF
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Patrick

13 years ago

Every man for himself..

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doingwrite

13 years ago

Originally Posted by schwarzes

Every man for himself..

Well that's a bombshell of a saying, now isn't it? Yes, we are all trying to make money or else why would we be in the IM world. But I don't agree that the everyman/woman for him/herself is the way to go. I think that is how the world economy got in this mess in the first place.

It's all about balance.

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Patrick

13 years ago

Originally Posted by doingwrite

Well that's a bombshell of a saying, now isn't it? Yes, we are all trying to make money or else why would we be in the IM world. But I don't agree that the everyman/woman for him/herself is the way to go. I think that is how the world economy got in this mess in the first place.

It's all about balance.

I meant it for the IM world and not the world economy.

And the world economy is down, due to people being lazy.

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Greg guitar 13 years ago

Originally Posted by schwarzes

I meant it for the IM world and not the world economy.

And the world economy is down, due to people being lazy.

Really-personal laziness is the reason the economy is down? What a brilliantly simple analysis of a problem some silly people think is more complex!

I assume since you stated "people being lazy" in general terms, in reference to the "world economy" you're referring to people in general the world over. In other words, the overall global output of honest work per capita must be down, causing the current global economic crisis (we can dismiss banking crimes, capital flight, environmental degradation, short term profit taking at the expense of longer term investment, merger fever, etc-which all pale in comparison to the dreaded plague of individual laziness currently gripping the globe).

Since the majority of hours worked around the world come from the "working poor", it follows that the companies who outsource labor to where the cheapest is found, simply don't drive the poor buggers hard enough. I guess the lion's share of blame for our horrible economic woes can be shared equally between the lazy workers who are locked in filthy, airless factories for 12+ hour shifts from early childhood, and those corporate managers who've gone soft, and don't drive them with sufficient zeal.

Come to think of it, it's been awhile since I read a news report of the entire workforce of a factory burning to death because the fire exit doors were locked to prevent unauthorized bathroom breaks (not as unreasonable as it sounds-some managers were generously allowing 2 or 3 per 12 hour shift). That surely indicates an unacceptable trend toward coddling the worker ants.
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sbucciarel

Banned 13 years ago

Originally Posted by schwarzes

Every man for himself..

hmmm ... great philosophy. If that were universally true of everyone here, this isn't a place that I would want to hang out. In fact, a lot of people here spend their time and sometimes even money or resources to help out others.

Thank goodness this is not the attitude of the majority, both in Internet Marketing and in real life. I wouldn't want to imagine this type of response to the Tsunamis of recent past or other natural disasters.

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Patrick

13 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

hmmm ... great philosophy. If that were universally true of everyone here, this isn't a place that I would want to hang out. In fact, a lot of people here spend their time and sometimes even money or resources to help out others.

Thank goodness this is not the attitude of the majority, both in Internet Marketing and in real life. I wouldn't want to imagine this type of response to the Tsunamis of recent past or other natural disasters.

OMG there is nothing to get snarky about it.

All I meant was, that whoever is doing it... will do it.. no matter what you guys discuss here

And it also does not mean that I am doing it.

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sbucciarel

Banned 13 years ago

Originally Posted by schwarzes

OMG there is nothing to get snarky about it.

All I meant was, that whoever is doing it... will do it.. no matter what you guys discuss here

And it also does not mean that I am doing it.

Trust me ... that wasn't snarky, at least by my snark meter. But you just threw that out and didn't qualify it in any way at all, so I imagine I'm not the only one who thought it was "remarkable".

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Greg guitar

13 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

Trust me ... that wasn't snarky, at least by my snark meter. But you just threw that out and didn't qualify it in any way at all, so I imagine I'm not the only one who thought it was "remarkable".

I took it the same as you and thought your response was reasonable. In fact, it could have been a lot harsher given that the post you responded to was a one liner, and something people shout when they really mean it.

How were we to know it was a comment about other people's philosophy, rather than a statement about his own? If you want people to understand you, you have to explain yourself.

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davidtong

13 years ago

Funny, I just wrote a post about internet marketer's ethics and intent a few minutes ago...

I agree that no matter what others may say, people will do what they think is right (or profitable), we don't live in an honest world unfortunately.

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Patrick

13 years ago

Originally Posted by davidtong

Funny, I just wrote a post about internet marketer's ethics and intent a few minutes ago...

I agree that no matter what others may say, people will do what they think is right (or profitable), we don't live in an honest world unfortunately.

Yes..That is what my point is !

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Ruth Hendrickson

13 years ago

Originally Posted by davidtong

Funny, I just wrote a post about internet marketer's ethics and intent a few minutes ago...

I agree that no matter what others may say, people will do what they think is right (or profitable), we don't live in an honest world unfortunately.

Yes we do live in an honest world -- and a dishonest one. We live in a rich world -- and a poor one. This forum is full of honest and rich internet marketers, as well as dishonest marketers (some rich, some poor). It all depends on your perspective.

If you see something unethical, report it. This forum does a great job of taking care of dishonest and unethical practices, but they can't see everything without some help. All you have to do is tell someone.

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eskimoto

13 years ago

It can be confusing sometimes. I personally got slapped today for spamming, which i apologised for and it will not happen again. However it seems like 80% of succes in IM is about spamming. All the backlinking - especially automated - is nothing but spam, also press releases submission.
I suppose there is a fine line between spamming and Internet Marketing but i am still learning how to find one.

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Paul Myers 13 years ago

Tom,

It can be confusing sometimes.

Yeah, and sometimes the mods get so busy we screw up.

Folks, I told Tom the Hostgator coupon was okay to include in his signature, so don't get on him about it. That's my fault. He asked.

Tom... I dropped the ball on that one. That's an affiliate offer, and so can't be used in sig files here. My apologies for giving you bad advice.

Paul
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Clyde

13 years ago

Originally Posted by eskimoto

It can be confusing sometimes. I personally got slapped today for spamming, which i apologised for and it will not happen again. However it seems like 80% of succes in IM is about spamming. All the backlinking - especially automated - is nothing but spam, also press releases submission.
I suppose there is a fine line between spamming and Internet Marketing but i am still learning how to find one.

SPAM = without consent.
i.e: Unsolicited emails, forum profile backlinks, blog comment backlinks.

Not-SPAM = with consent.
i.e: Distributing articles to article directories, posting to privately owned blogs etc.

SPAMMY = subjective. An article can be "spammy" if it's garbage, spun and redistributed to 1000 other blogs.

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davidtong

13 years ago

Eskimoto: You bring up an interesting point to ponder...

Is spamming Google (and search engines) the same as spamming people in terms of 'weight'?

For example, those bulk links created by backlinking software are often never seen by humans to begin with. All those single-page profiles/web 2.0 properties, etc. probably never get seen by anyone but the crawling bots of search engines...

Should those kinda spam be treated with the same severity as email spam, for example...

BTW, I've been receiving A LOT of spam from IMers promoting Eben's upcoming $1997 program hehe, quite amusing coz many of these guys have been providing great free content in the past and it gives me a chuckle when I click the link and see the same video all the time the past 4 days.

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sbucciarel

Banned 13 years ago

Originally Posted by davidtong

BTW, I've been receiving A LOT of spam from IMers promoting Eben's upcoming $1997 program hehe, quite amusing coz many of these guys have been providing great free content in the past and it gives me a chuckle when I click the link and see the same video all the time the past 4 days.

You aren't receiving spam if you opted in to those lists. There's a simple solution. Unsubscribe. I haven't received ONE offer for said promotion.

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scottmanesis 13 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

You aren't receiving spam if you opted in to those lists. There's a simple solution. Unsubscribe. I haven't received ONE offer for said promotion.

I usually stay subscribed to one guru in a group of circle jerks just to see what they are doing.

Most times, the moment I see someone mail me one of these syndicate crime waves, I just go ahead and unsubscribe from them.
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JohnMcCabe

13 years ago

Originally Posted by davidtong

Eskimoto: You bring up an interesting point to ponder...

Is spamming Google (and search engines) the same as spamming people in terms of 'weight'?

For example, those bulk links created by backlinking software are often never seen by humans to begin with. All those single-page profiles/web 2.0 properties, etc. probably never get seen by anyone but the crawling bots of search engines...

Should those kinda spam be treated with the same severity as email spam, for example...

Actually, I think it's every bit as bad. Spamming people directly or spamming online properties owned by others is still exploiting someone else's resources for your own gain without worrying about whether or not your actions hurt the resource owner.

How many valuable resources (blogs, forums, etc.) are abandoned because the owner of that resource either can't or hasn't the desire to participate in an ever-escalating war with the exploiters?

Scan through some of the previous discussions on the topic and see just some of the people who have abandoned or shut down projects because the spambots were relentlessly sapping the resource.

(Cue the smartass with the lecture on server mechanics.)

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dee4d

13 years ago

Yes, you are right. Let this forum be more interactive, informative and not so much a place to make your sale. Let's avoid spamming at all costs to make warrior forum what it should be. For the genuine ones, I think the approach should be more professional, as opposed to just mentioning it so that it doesn't look like spam.

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BIG Mike

Banned 13 years ago

[DELETED]

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AdwordsMogul

13 years ago

Originally Posted by BIG Mike

So are you saying that automatic tool in your signature is a Spamming tool? And you're going to take responsibility for selling it to others? Will you be refunding everyone? :rolleyes:

Thanks for the heads up on it

Big Mike, you know that's not what I'm saying. Plus, you know you need to find out what it does before commenting. But you didn't...

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BIG Mike

Banned 13 years ago

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AdwordsMogul

13 years ago

Originally Posted by BIG Mike

I already did - and my "Snarky" response was because you're trying to talk about taking responsibility for spamming the web with automatic tools and also selling an automatic tool that could be potentially used for FaceBook spam.

Or did I miss out on how taking content from your blog and then simply duplicating it on FaceBook adds value? It doesn't...and I suspect you know that as well.
....

Big Mike, you didn't find out what it does. You just jumped to a conclusion, I wonder why.

Can you give at least one scenario in which this tool could be used for spam? I doubt you can't think of anything reasonable, but feel free to state your case.

I can give you at least 10 ways this product HAS created value, and continues to do so, but that will be advertising in the wrong section. The mods, and other members won't be happy about that.

In any case, your comment is just an attack for no reason.

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azmanar

13 years ago

Originally Posted by AdwordsMogul

Big Mike, you didn't find out what it does. You just jumped to a conclusion, I wonder why.

Can you give at least one scenario in which this tool could be used for spam? I doubt you can't think of anything reasonable, but feel free to state your case.

I can give you at least 10 ways this product HAS created value, and continues to do so, but that will be advertising in the wrong section. The mods, and other members won't be happy about that.

In any case, your comment is just an attack for no reason.

Hi,

I think it is not an attack but rather a challenge.

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R Hagel

13 years ago

Originally Posted by AdwordsMogul

Can you give at least one scenario in which this tool could be used for spam? I doubt you can't think of anything reasonable, but feel free to state your case.

First off, your site says:

Your Fan page will be updated anytime you update your site/blog

You don't even have to go back to edit your fan page. When you choose the Blog-Style layout, content from your site will be pulled onto your fan page, by default.

That makes it sound like your tool automatically accesses FB to update the Fan Page.

Here's what FB says about this kind of stuff in their TOS:

You will not collect users' content or information, or otherwise access Facebook, using automated means...

Now, as for a specific example...

First off, let me say that just about any automation tool can be used for good or bad. Like the saying goes: You can use fire to cook your dinner... or burn your house down. But you keep pushing Big Mike for a specific example and not accepting what he's already told you. So let me give you something very specific, just to illustrate that it could be used for nefarious purposes.

Joe Blow the Warrior has a blog. On this blog he shares marketing strategies as well as advertises WSOs.

So his blog has content like, "$1 to $5000... FAST!"

And, "Discover This Money-Making Secret and Kiss Your Boss Goodbye!"

So what happens when his blog is automatically converted into a FB Fan Page? He runs square into FBs prohibited content terms, which include:

Get rich quick and other money making opportunities that offer compensation for little or no investment, including "work from home" opportunities positioned as alternatives to part-time or full-time employment or promises of monetary gain with no strings attached;

IANAL, but I expect that FB would consider Joe Blow to be spamming since his content ran afoul of their terms.

So... it is possible.

[ 1 ] Thanks

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warriorjohn1444

Banned 13 years ago

Originally Posted by AdwordsMogul

Here is another observation you may find interesting.

Do you realize that a lot of the products (and advice) on the Warrior Forum is about... spamming the web?

For instance, look at autoblogging. Isn't that "glorifed web spam?" . Or the blog commenting tools, as well as virtually any kind of bot.

One reason why you could view these as spam is that these products, and techniques have nothing to do with creating value - it's all about extracting money from people.

Since this is the biggest IM forum in the world, maybe we have some kind of responsibility. What's your opinion about this?

Men I LOVE this! Cars are spams, Computers are spams. Everything created in this world has two sides. Guns are for defense but it can get into the wrong hands, computers are meant to ease our jobs but unscrupulous individuals hide behind the scene to do a lot of ungodly things.

Oh, i should be walking miles and miles, why did they create CAR when they fully understand that there can be collision.

Well, i think this all depends on the hand that uses it.

Thanks

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azmanar

13 years ago

Hi,

I have an acquaintance who is a spammer. He spams monthly to recruit people into his MLM programs. And each time he spammed, he got scores of new recruits. And he is making money.

In the past, I have adviced him against spamming several times. He just won't listen. He said it is lucrative and no one complained.

What intrigues me is the sort of positive responses he got from his unsolicited emails. It seems, the ANTI-SPAM campaigns were not really effective. Some people seemed to be oblivious of so many risks.

Probably, this is the same scenario for other spammers. They are willing to take the risk because a significant percentage responded positively. And as a result, make them money.

I think SPAMMING the WEB (with garbage or not), is a personal choice. Spammers don't really care about the legal risks because of the response from so-called "victims".

And my personal choice is not to spam. I'm able to sustain myself without it.

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shuvo

13 years ago

I think you are right.The best way to do this is avoiding those posts and threads.However its only possible when we really want a spam free web from our heart and accept it as our basic responsibility rather than only making money which is also possible without spamming.

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JasonGiorgini

13 years ago

The internet was founded on SPAM! Who am I to mess tradition up?

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cscarpero

13 years ago

You can use tools and still provide value. Sadly, you are right a lot of people are not providing any value at all. Google is penalizing most of them anyway if it makes you feel any better.

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Tony Marriott

13 years ago

First off I am going declare that I do not support spamming but I find it interesting on how things change over time.

What practices were acceptable, if not compulsory, that are now not.

It is the level of acceptability that decides what a (general) person will or will not do. That level of acceptability is set by one's peers. By either actual behavior or expressed behavior.

At any one time it all depends on where you are prepared to draw the line.

Google have set the requirements by becoming the dominant search engine. It is Google's "policies" and the continued changing of those policies that cause people to try alternative methods to get there sites and products in front of the general public.

At any point in time those methods may, or may not, be acceptable.

Acceptability does not define the right and wrong of it, merely how far people are willing to step over the line.

In one of Google's publications discussing the ethics of SEO (in Google's eyes) it states (Words to the effect of)
"Ask Yourself, would you do this if there were no search engines"

If this is the measure by which to judge then any attempt to create backlinks or other SEO advantage, either manually or automatically is not acceptable to Google.

Although I am confident that most IMrs will say that the likes of "Added value" manual blog commenting is an acceptable practice along with ensuring articles are "keyword rich" and your sites are social bookmarked.

So what is "acceptable" is not always in line with the defined "rules". I guess in this arena the acceptable practices will change until such time as they all fall within the policies of Google and the rules of the FCC.

However, trying to block the path to someone making money (ethically or not) will always be an uphill struggle.

Expecting the forum (moderators) to police that fine, ever changing line, line of acceptability is unrealistic. Of course they can "ban" extremes that are clearly unacceptable but who defines the line that you cannot cross?

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fluffythewondercat

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Tony Marriott

It is the level of acceptability that decides what a (general) person will or will not do. That level of acceptability is set by one's peers. By either actual behavior or expressed behavior.

I snipped this quote because I think it's important.

Choose your peer group wisely. Evaluate people not by what they say but by what they do. As you learn, hopefully you grow.

For example, I won't associate with spammers but that wasn't always the case. It wasn't until I started blogging heavily that I realized how much value is destroyed by opportunistic dimwitted scumbags every day...if you let them.

I've never bought a WSO and probably never will, because I can't be sure it doesn't advocate shady methods. I don't want to be a party to that.

Some people in this thread have said there's no use bringing up this subject, because some people will cheat and they never change. Well, they do sometimes change, particularly if they come to learn it's in their best interest to play nice.

fLufF
--

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Brandon Bell 13 years ago

Hey,

Google invented the rules, we only play by them.

If autoblogs didn't hold value, people wouldn't buy and sell them.

Autoblogs are among the most frequently bought and sold sites on Flippa.

I would also add that most organic backlinks are acquired from someone scraping content and providing a link back to the original source. *cough cough* Google *cough cough*

Needless to say, backlinks are an essential part of Google's algorithm. Without backlinks, Google couldn't rank sites in terms of popularity of links to other relevant sites.

Truth be told, spamming and autoblogging are staples in internet marketing because of Google. The Warrior Forum simply provides the products and information that internet marketing demands.
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AdwordsMogul

13 years ago

Big Mike, you still haven't stated exactly how this could be used to spam the web...

Maybe you are one of those Warriors who are offended by this post so you're just taking the thread in a different direction.

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BIG Mike

Banned 13 years ago

[DELETED]

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AdwordsMogul

13 years ago

Originally Posted by BIG Mike

Get over yourself - you started the thread specifically promote the product in your signature. Then you get all worked up because it got mentioned.

Sheesh...:rolleyes:

Well Big Mike, you see, you don't have a point. You made an accusation that you can't substantiate.

And as the title of the thread, this is to be expected.

You can believe that you want - this is a public forum and everyone is allowed to start a thread.

In order to show respect to everyone else, I think it's best we stay on topic. As long as you are not stating facts, you are wasting everyone's time. And so am I by not ignoring your remarks.

So either state your case properly, or just say something that contributes to those who read this thread.

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BIG Mike

Banned 13 years ago

[DELETED]

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AdwordsMogul

13 years ago

Originally Posted by BIG Mike

Ah, then allow me to stop wasting everyone's time - your product needlessly duplicates blog content to FB FanPages automatically. That's link and content spam...it adds absolutely no value to the user searching and no value to the blog or FaceBook.

When I search on a topic that returns results based on someone who has used it, it will return links to different platforms that contain the same content (just reformatted). There's no value in that for the searcher.

I took that directly from your sales page - is that not what it does?

Incidentally, I am on topic and am free to post my comments within reason, whether you like them or not.

P.S. Please, do not say untrue things that can be easily verified. You will just make yourself look bad.

I wonder know why you're so afraid to admit your product is an automated spammer? Why are you afraid to talk about it honestly?

And I'd better stop there before I say something I'll regret...

Wow Big Mike, you just shot yourself in the foot!

Let's just say what you are saying is completely not true, and you are beginning to act like someone who has no trouble with saying something that's... simply not true.

No, that is not what the plugin does.(and if you read the sales page, you know it. In fact there is a video that demonstrates what it does.)

I'm not sure if I'm allowed to describe it's functionality, according to the forum's TOS. That would be almost a direct advertisement.

But since you are capitalizing on the word "automatic" let me explain that bit. It simply means that the plugin works without requiring additional input once it's been set up.

What you have described can't even be done by this plugin - even if someone wanted to.

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Tom Brownsword

13 years ago

I know that we have people with different philosophies on creating an online business, so this is definitely an opinion...

Back in my high school days, one of the first things I learned in my Distributive Education class (their term for "business") was that a business has to do two things:

1. Make a profit.
2. Provide a valuable product or service.

The two are complimentary, if you stop to think about it.

So I personally cannot agree with the "make money only" aspect and consider "splogs" to be a low to no value way of making money.

I see the consumer side of things a lot in my computer security work and can assure you that most of the world does not look too kindly at any type of spam or low value way of making money. Governments eventually listen to the people and start cracking down on it. When that happens, the legitimate businesses who have built relationships with customers and provided value will be light years ahead of those who decided to offer low- to no-value "stuff" that has been banned.

I'd encourage anybody who took the time to read this to choose the harder, but ultimately more valuable, approach.

Best wishes,
Tom

P.S. -- Agreed; you can use tools and still provide high-value content...

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That Guy

13 years ago

OK, if you're talking about seeing crappily-made products then I guess I see where you're coming from. But I focus more on adsense and tinker in amazon products and I think that even having a spammy site is fine if the end results are good.

If someone clicks on my google ad and it converts, then I did my job right. Everyone benefits, the buyer, the company selling the product/service, Google, and more importantly me.

[ 1 ] Thanks

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AdwordsMogul

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Chris Kent

Autoblogs are illegal, plain and simple. Or do the blog owners seek permission to make money out of using someone else's content?

Hmmm....I don't think so! Can't believe people are defending autoblogs at all.

PS we are getting way off-topic here. Rule #1 folks. Take it outside, please.

My apologies, you're absolutely right.

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Paul Myers 13 years ago

Chris,

Rule #1 folks. Take it outside, please.

Rule #1 is not meant to prevent arguments. There are lines for that, but they're in a different set of conventions, and these folks aren't even close to the edges yet.

Besides, I'm mildly amused at "Mogul" trying to dictate the terms of the discussion.

Paul
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Targeted Traffic

13 years ago

Well what's interesting to remember is that these "spams" are also but human made...and these tools wouldn't sell if they aren't really needed....

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Harold Lindsey

13 years ago

Yeah AdswordsMogul, that is exactly how I feel.

For a while there I was still buying those autobloging scripts, and content scrapers and the like. But I could never use them. Not because I didn't know how. It was because I felt like I would be just building a what I call a, "Hit & Run" site.

Just send them in one end and squeeze out the coin, and leave them with nothing.
I couldn't do that. No matter how much I tried to be one of them. I just couldn't do it.

I would rather recieve an email from a subscriber telling me that my info really helped them or that they loved the content. Then make fast "Hit & Run" money.

I don't know, maybe I'll never make as much money as they will. But I'll know that I provided my people with the best content and value that I could.

Thanks

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RussRuffino

13 years ago

Guys, it comes down to this: are you creating VALUE in the world? If you're not, then you don't have a real business model. It's that simple.

If you're not actively helping people solve their problems, your business is an ILLUSION.

One day you'll wake up and find that the MONEY was an illusion, too.

Russ

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Rsberg

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Chris Kent

Autoblogs are illegal, plain and simple. Or do the blog owners seek permission to make money out of using someone else's content?

Hmmm....I don't think so! Can't believe people are defending autoblogs at all.

PS we are getting way off-topic here. Rule #1 folks. Take it outside, please.

All I can say is WOW....

Thanks

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BIG Mike

Banned 13 years ago

[DELETED]

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Alexa Smith Banned 13 years ago

Originally Posted by Chris Kent

Autoblogs are illegal, plain and simple. Or do the blog owners seek permission to make money out of using someone else's content?

Some take only content which is available for free syndication, and take the associated and required links with them.

That clearly isn't illegal.

Many others do steal content, which obviously breaches people's copyrights, but that doesn't make the autoblogs themselves illegal: it just means that many people use them for illegal purposes.

I'm no greater admirer of autoblogs, collectively, than you are, Chris, but to assert flatly that "autoblogs are illegal, plain and simple" is just bizarre.

Originally Posted by BIG Mike

Bottom line is any tool that's used to throw up crap content and links online does not add value to anything.

I don't think anyone, on any "side" of the discussion, can dispute that.
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Rsberg

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Chris Kent

What I mean is that 99% of them are ripping off other people's content.

True, the worst autoblogs are those that rip off content AND don't provide value.

But even those that provide value are nearly always ripping off content too.

99% of these autoblogs are ripping off other people's content.

If someone breaches copyright, then they are breaking international copyright law. They are breaking the law. The product of their law breaking must surely be considered illegal in itself, no?

Where exactly are you getting your figures and numbers from? Is there some autoblog statistics site I am unaware of?

www.autoblogssuckbecause99%ofthemareillegalbecause theysteal.com

Seriously man...you are WAY off base!

Have you ever considered that you (and others) only think the numbers and percentages of those ill conceived autoblogs are as high as they are because you never hear complaints about the quality autoblogs out there? You never hear complaints from site owners who don't mind having their content (and links) syndicated to autoblogs from sites that allow this...

I realize you probably had some of your content taken without permission and I (along with many others) do not agree with that. I also realize you may have tried and failed with autoblogging which left a "bad taste" in your mouth for it...but seriously man...not every autoblogger out there is trying to steal your content. Not even close!

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Rsberg

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Chris Kent

What I'm talking about is what John is talking about - that taking someone's content without explicitly asking their permission is (unless they have a Creative Commons license stated or similar) illegal. It's theft.
Just because an RSS feed is published, doesn't mean one can steal the content and make some money from affiliate links/Adsense/CPA or whatever.

With these two points I agree with you so no issues there, however, I have seen many of your posts throughout the forum that are very similar to this one and you very rarely make that distinction. You (as well as many others) have a tendency of lumping all autobloggers together in what you view as the same group...and I'm sorry, thats simply not the case.

Originally Posted by Chris Kent

How many autobloggers do you think have asked the content owners for their permission. It must be infinitesimally small.

How do you know that? Is that once again just an assumption on your part or did that come from the autoblog stat site I mentioned before?

Originally Posted by Chris Kent

The whole point of autoblogs is that they are easy to set up and maintain. Those with autoblog farms are not asking every single content source for their permission, no way in hell are they.

Once again...an assumption¸probably a fairly valid one in most cases but still an assumption.

Seriously, I don’t like Hondas but that doesn’t mean I am going to condemn all foreign cars…think about it.

You are correct that part of the point is that they are easy to set up, however, many of those style of AB are dying out as they simply don’t offer value so as time continues to pass you will need to change your opinions (or at least what you openly voice in public) because those type of autoblogs days are limited. The owners will either have to change the way they autoblog or find something else to do. Many of us changed a couple of years back and have learned a better way to do it that’s not only beneficial to us but (IMO) to the reader, the net as a whole and yes…even the source of the content.

Originally Posted by Chris Kent

As for your assertions, yes I have had content stolen and used against me to outrank me. Have I tried autoblogging myself? No, I haven't. I've investigated what it is and thought about using it for a private blog for my eyes only, as a way of aggregating news stories for my personal consumption (just like igoogle or using a feed aggregator) but not for personal consumption and certainly not for making money.

That’s usually the case, most times the "haters" either fail with it or may have had content stolen. In the case of stolen content I completely understand why people don’t like autoblogging as I don’t agree with that either. Often times the case is that the hater simply failed at it and then wants to bash it on a regular basis because it can’t possibly work since they couldn’t make it work for them. There are a few people here who seemingly go out of their way to bash Autoblogging every chance they get.

Originally Posted by Chris Kent

And you talk about blog owners who "don't mind" their content being used. How do you know? Is this another assumption? Were they asked before their content was stolen?

You just answered you own question with your statement below...

Do you realize how many sources of what your calling legal content there is on the net? It’s ridiculous, content (legal content) can be found all over the place. Decent autobloggers are getting content from sites like Ezine where it’s not only allowed...it's in the TOS. There are literally hundreds upon hundreds (probably far more in reality) of smaller, much lesser known (to the average Joe, but not many autobloggers) article directories that have similar rules and TOS as Ezine. Tons of content!

Don’t forget open source video sharing sites, picture sharing sites, Yahoo Answers, Ebay and Amazon, RSS feeds that do permit the use and syndication of content (yes they do exist) and the list goes on and on Chris...seriously man, there are tons and tons of content sources on the net that we can use that are totally legit. To quote the infamous MC Hammer… “Too legit to quit”!

Having said all of that, I will agree not many do this (although I know several I’m sure the % is small) but there are some of us who actually do contact a site owner and ask before simply taking their content. I have 1 particular blog owner who I have developed a good friendship with over the last year or so and they are more than happy to let me take any content I want from their site because they know I will link back to them in return. Our friendship started simply because I was courteous enough to contact him and ask him if he minded if I used one of his posts on one of my sites.

Moral of the story...

We aren't all evil thieves sent from hell to steal your content. Assuming we are is a bad move on your part.

Originally Posted by Chris Kent

When I submit an article to EZA, I don't mind that they make money from my content either. But I explicitly give them permission to do so. It's a wilful partnership.

When you submit to Ezine your also giving autobloggers permission to use and therfore make money off of your content, not just Ezine themselves...just in case you didn't know that. If you don't believe me go check out their TOS.

I should probably apologize now, I don't mean to come off like a jerk, I really don't (most people say I am a pretty nice guy). I just get so darn tired of hearing crap like you have been posting (not only in this thread), it gets old sometimes ya know...

Thanks

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Burton Lancaster

13 years ago

People always have and always will do what they can get away with. It forces search engines to hone their craft, and educates people to seek out reliable news sources. Without the Black there is no White.

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BIG Mike

Banned 13 years ago

[DELETED]

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andreasnrb 13 years ago

Autoblogging and the use of content spinners is popular. Most people have no respect for copyrights really and most seem to think that because you have "spun" the copied text its no longer under the copyright of the original author. Well it is. Spinning and posting other peoples content without consent is still copyright infringement( even if you give a link back).
But don't know if its lack of respect for copyright or if its just plain ignorance. I think I'll with ignorance. Its very obvious when it comes to talk of software licenses anyway.

Originally Posted by BIG Mike

Wow, and I didn't even feel it :rolleyes:
... lots of text
...

From what I understand nothing is copied on to Facebook fanpages. There is no spam involved, there is no automatic access of Facebook accounts etc etc. This I got from visiting his site.
He is using an iFrame application support in Facebook Fanpages. So the content is loaded in an iFrame on Facebook. Its the new way of doing things on Facebook Fanpages. And showing something different after people clicking like is like standard practice it seems. Also its Facebook that gives you this possibility in their SDK.
All the plugin does is adapt the WordPress content to the Facebook iFrame.
I can't find any rules that are violated by doing this. The automatic part is that you don't have to create separate pages/sites inorder to have your content easily accessible with the iFrame. The plugin does it for you.

AdwordsMogul is taking some heat for something as simple as adapting content to a frame. Soon people will call it spam to have a plugin that adapts your site to a visitor on a mobilephone or iPad the horror.

But I might be totally wrong and all I wrote is total hogwash plz correct me if it is.
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- BIG Mike Banned 13 years ago
  
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  andreasnrb 13 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by BIG Mike
  
  That's not what he's taking heat for...
  
  Not? Since thats whats his tool does. There is no duplication of content, there is no link spam etc. You don't get backlinks from your own website in a frame on other sites or on your own site. All links counts as internal links. Theres nothing spammy about it. Please explain the spam, autoblog etc part of his plugin?
  You can PM me if you want too an go through it step by step because I fail to grasp this apparently obvious connection.:confused:
  
  Thanks
  
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bwh1

13 years ago

Aren't tools made to....

Fulfill a DEMAND?

So if you wanna start combat spam (what I definitely support as I can't handle the stupid spam comments in my Blogs) why we don't go to the root of problem.

The GOOGLE INDEX.

With all the money they have and the gazillion of reps, they can't get the first 10 pages of their index cleared out.

So the conclusion must be that Google actually support SPAM.

And who are we to fight against the big G.

G. (small G.)

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Affililancer

13 years ago

I've noticed that whenever a SEO technique is suddenly transformed because of a magical piece of software - watch out!!! The spammers are seconds away!

Originally Posted by AdwordsMogul

Here is another observation you may find interesting.

Do you realize that a lot of the products (and advice) on the Warrior Forum is about... spamming the web?

For instance, look at autoblogging. Isn't that "glorifed web spam?" . Or the blog commenting tools, as well as virtually any kind of bot.

One reason why you could view these as spam is that these products, and techniques have nothing to do with creating value - it's all about extracting money from people.

Since this is the biggest IM forum in the world, maybe we have some kind of responsibility. What's your opinion about this?

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YasirYar

13 years ago

I guess in a way Google promotes spamming by making it so difficult for the little person to rank at the top.

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Paul Myers 13 years ago

Yasir,

I guess in a way Google promotes spamming by making it so difficult for the little person to rank at the top.

Ummm... No.

This gets said a lot, but all it shows is that the people saying it aren't thinking very clearly about the situation. Or they're rationalizing their own behavior.

Google's algorithms "consider" the factors their programmers believe best reflect informed human opinion. Most of what is called "SEO" is about faking those factors to manipulate the algorithms into ranking a site higher in the SERPs than it deserves or would otherwise reach.

Most of what people in this industry think of as "search engine optimization" is destructive and deceptive.

It's also based around the foolish notion that Google is the best/only way to get traffic or exposure for a site. That's as dangerous as any other process that makes your business too dependent on a single source of interaction with the people you're trying to reach.

The question I have for those who say things like this is simple: What would happen to your business if Google disappeared tomorrow?

Paul
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- mattlaclear 13 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Paul Myers
  
  The question I have for those who say things like this is simple: What would happen to your business if Google disappeared tomorrow?
  
  Paul
  
  That's easy. Anyone care for a guaranteed page one ranking on Bing and Alta Vista?
  
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outwest

13 years ago

i would not call that spamming

heck back in the mid 90s you would open alta vista and find one company holding the top 10 spots or top 20 spots for a kw

now thats spamming

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JohnMcCabe

13 years ago

Originally Posted by peterjamesmorris

The one question I would have about it, though, is whether it is really ethical to scrape someone else's content automatically without their permission.

Ask a tough one. No, it is not ethical to scrape someone else's content without their permission, automatically or otherwise. Period. Full stop.

And the fact that an RSS feed exists is NOT evidence of permission to scrape, regardless of what the 'situational ethics' crowd might say.

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tpw

13 years ago

Originally Posted by AdwordsMogul

One reason why you could view these as spam is that these products, and techniques have nothing to do with creating value - it's all about extracting money from people.

LOL

Are you trying to say that people should focus on creating real value, instead of sucking the value out of other people's resources?

Blasphemy!!! :p

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sdentrepreneur

13 years ago

IMO, Spam is bad.
What I do is place ads (Facebook, Google/Yahoo/Bing PPC, Banner Ads) in places where people are searching the web for solutions to their problems.
When you place a ad for a biz opp on a Brittney Spears keyword, then you are spamming.
Don't even mess with emailing anybody unless they have double opt in for my list.

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Rsberg

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Chris Kent

Dude I'm a Hammer fan too, lol!

I stand corrected on the sources, there are indeed many more than I had thought.

As for the directories, there are so many people who rip off EZA articles and de-hyperlink the links, grr...

Yeah...now this last part I totally agree with!

I'm not a fan of those who take content from sites like EZA and either spin it or take out the links or both in some cases. That does get on my nerves when I see it and I completely agree that it's wrong!

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Viramara

13 years ago

automation is not spamming if you use it wisely. It's basically a help tool. Technology is like a knife depends on how to and who use it

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danieldroga

13 years ago

Desperate people would really do anything just to get money from other people by hook or by crook. If you are not confident on your own capability of selling your products or services, there is always an option to just cheat. It depends on your conscience, anyway, there is always what we call "karma" to come and pull those cheaters down.

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vliddico

13 years ago

The same rules apply online and offline. You must provide content to your customers. If you want a lasting buisness and REPEAT customers then you must give before you get. This rule will always apply. Not everyone will apply it and may see short term results but nothing sustainable because what goes around always comes around.