Refund requests - have a think about it.

72 replies
I just received a refund request on a product that contains a 217 page ebook, along with 80 ready made business contracts. This is a product that I invested quite literally 3 months of my time and approximately $3,000 to put together.

Receiving the refund request isnt what made me upset. Its the fact that I received the refund request just 4 minutes after purchase.

Now think about it. It would've taken at least a minute to finalise the payment, then probably another minute to download and extract the files. Then of course, at least 2 minutes to go about actually raising the refund request itself.

I really dont see how its possible that this person could have even LOOKED at the material in this kit, let alone feel that it didnt meet his expectations!

I do apologise for venting but this infuriates me!

To those of you who think that its "funny" or "smart" to purchase products then immediately refund them, let me tell you - ITS NOT.

Im trying to make a living here, just like everyone else. Ive got rent to pay, bills and living expenses too.

</rant>
#refund #requests
  • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
    Banned
    Yes, clearly purchased with the intention of refunding - infuriating.

    "Part of the cost of doing business" and so on and so forth ... but still pretty unpleasant. These people are just dishonest. Call me a judgemental skepchick but I suspect they're also the ones who upload them to subfusc-headware sites as illegal downloads, too.
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    • Profile picture of the author AnniePot
      There is one form of document protection I tested a year or so ago, which in some way disables the document in the event of a refund, etc. Can't remember the name of the website, but I'll search through all my "stuff" and see if I can dig it out for you.

      Of course, it involves a monthly subscription.

      EDIT: Sorry, I've had a quick look, but can't locate the website. Maybe they have gone out of business. I'll look again later
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    • Profile picture of the author tbp
      That's the main reason I have stopped giving refunds the past 4 years. Unless I'm sure that the customer has a very serious reason asking for the refund. I'n my web site I state clearly that all sales are final. On the other hand we offer a free DEMO so if a user test it and like it then they buy the product. If they come to scam they hit the wall cause we also protect our software the best way possible. So even in case of refund or charge back, they get nothing...!!! Consider protect your products before expose them online. Then if you choose to keep on giving refunds, then you know that they get nothing unless you get something. In other words No money = No Honey!!!

      Regards
      James Saunders
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      • Profile picture of the author John Romaine
        Originally Posted by tbp View Post

        In other words No money = No Honey!!!
        Thanks James. Out of interest, are you selling your products using CB as a payment processor?
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      • Profile picture of the author Kay King
        It's not funny - or smart - but you have to look at it from a different perspective.

        This refund says nothing about your product or about you - the only thing it says is about the person who bought and immediately refunded.

        You are reacting normally in defense of the quality of your product - and that's not at issue. The real problem is a low class buyer/scammer.

        kay
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        I'm going to work on being less condescending
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      • Profile picture of the author scrofford
        Originally Posted by tbp View Post

        That's the main reason I have stopped giving refunds the past 4 years. Unless I'm sure that the customer has a very serious reason asking for the refund. I'n my web site I state clearly that all sales are final. On the other hand we offer a free DEMO so if a user test it and like it then they buy the product. If they come to scam they hit the wall cause we also protect our software the best way possible. So even in case of refund or charge back, they get nothing...!!! Consider protect your products before expose them online. Then if you choose to keep on giving refunds, then you know that they get nothing unless you get something. In other words No money = No Honey!!!

        Regards
        James Saunders
        They can still get a refund by going through their credit card company and forcing the refund from your account. A lot of people may not know that they can do this but a lot do. It may not be the easiest way or work 100% of the time, but they can still get the money back and keep the product. So you aren't completely protected.
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    • Profile picture of the author All Night Cafe
      Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

      Yes, clearly purchased with the intention of refunding - infuriating.

      "Part of the cost of doing business" and so on and so forth ... but still pretty unpleasant. These people are just dishonest. Call me a judgemental skepchick but I suspect they're also the ones who upload them to subfusc-headware sites as illegal downloads, too.
      Alexa, did you change your picture? What up..

      You are right refunds are part of our business. I refund and then
      unscribe the address. I laugh out loud, then get back to work.
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  • Profile picture of the author Margo Tuul
    Serial refunders and nothing you can do about them.

    Don't get your head around it or be upset. It's not worth it. Take it like this: you take action, get something done and make money online....they buy, download, buy, download...but don't make money. Most serial refunders never take any action and are just looking for a "magic bullet"...

    Not sure where you sold your product, but in some places you can blacklist this buyer and their paypal ID. That's what i'm doing...
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    • Profile picture of the author John Romaine
      Originally Posted by Margo Tuul View Post

      Serial refunders and nothing you can do about them.
      Is this really the mindset we should all adopt though :confused:

      Im beginning to think, more and more buyers see Clickbank products as "free" because of this mentality.
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      • Profile picture of the author Margo Tuul
        Yes. Nothing you can do about. They get their refund one way or another.

        If your sales page offers moneyback guarantee, then you accept refunds. And it looks like you were selling your product on CB, so you need to offer moneyback guarantee anyway.

        Maybe then use some other affiliate network to sell your products without moneyback guarantee? PayDotCom for example?

        Originally Posted by ramone_johnny View Post

        Is this really the mindset we should all adopt though :confused:
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  • Profile picture of the author John Romaine
    Its very annoying Alexa. I know its just part of doing business, but surely the staff of Clickbank can decide between a legitimate refund request, and one thats carried out with obvious intent.

    Im more than happy to give refunds. Ive given plenty, as Im sure we all have.

    But when someone requests a refund within 4 minutes, its just aggrevating.

    On another note, has anyone had any luck escalating something like this to CB staff and denying the request?
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    • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
      Banned
      Originally Posted by ramone_johnny View Post

      Its very annoying Alexa. I know its just part of doing business, but surely the staff of Clickbank can decide between a legitimate refund request, and one thats carried out with obvious intent.
      I think, unfortunately, they may possibly be right in refusing to do that, because if they did, it could so easily be held against them and people would say "They're scammers because they don't honour their 60-day refund". And that would be bad for all of us. I think I do understand their policy, in that regard, to be honest.

      They do ban people who make a habit of it - this much I know, for sure. But you were caught by one who hasn't yet "made a habit of it". But given that they do ban people whom they classify as serial refunders there, I think they're probably right to honour all other refunds ... :confused:
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    • Profile picture of the author Robert Puddy
      Originally Posted by ramone_johnny View Post

      Its very annoying Alexa. I know its just part of doing business, but surely the staff of Clickbank can decide between a legitimate refund request, and one thats carried out with obvious intent.

      Im more than happy to give refunds. Ive given plenty, as Im sure we all have.

      But when someone requests a refund within 4 minutes, its just aggrevating.

      On another note, has anyone had any luck escalating something like this to CB staff and denying the request?
      Another reason to deliver content from inside a members area, with proper software so it immeadiatly closes their account the minute they refund.
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  • Profile picture of the author WinXPrize
    When they get their refund doesn't that mean they keep your book as well? That really sucks.
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    • Profile picture of the author John Romaine
      Originally Posted by WinXPrize View Post

      When they get their refund doesn't that mean they keep your book as well? That really sucks.
      Yeah they keep the lot.
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  • Profile picture of the author JasonParker
    Originally Posted by ramone_johnny View Post

    I just received a refund request on a product that contains a 217 page ebook, along with 80 ready made business contracts. This is a product that I invested quite literally 3 months of my time and approximately $3,000 to put together.

    Receiving the refund request isnt what made me upset. Its the fact that I received the refund request just 4 minutes after purchase.

    Now think about it. It would've taken at least a minute to finalise the payment, then probably another minute to download and extract the files. Then of course, at least 2 minutes to go about actually raising the refund request itself.

    I really dont see how its possible that this person could have even LOOKED at the material in this kit, let alone feel that it didnt meet his expectations!

    I do apologise for venting but this infuriates me!

    To those of you who think that its "funny" or "smart" to purchase products then immediately refund them, let me tell you - ITS NOT.

    Im trying to make a living here, just like everyone else. Ive got rent to pay, bills and living expenses too.

    </rant>
    Refund him, blacklist him, and go make money.
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    • Profile picture of the author John Romaine
      Originally Posted by JasonParker View Post

      ....blacklist him
      How Jason?
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      • Profile picture of the author JasonParker
        Originally Posted by ramone_johnny View Post

        How Jason?
        You should be able to blacklist him from your list and whatever shopping cart you're using.
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  • Profile picture of the author electroglyder
    Refunds are a necessary if not bothersome part of doing business period! Without the possibility of having any recourse with a purchase, we could sell you the Brooklyn Bridge and not worry if it wasn't real because you were stuck with WHAT? So as aggravating as it is ,it's necessary . Luckily ,with a good product,refunds will be few!
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  • Profile picture of the author SUPER Louie
    Think of it this way...
    1) Maybe the refunder wants to review your product and become an affiliate but doesn't really need the product
    2) Maybe your product is so good that people with no money make all the means to obtain a copy of it
    3) Maybe the person thought your products was something else, and was surprised it wasn't what he/she was looking for

    Don't bother understanding why they do these things anymore. I think it's an isolated case. Just worry about the people who bought your product. That would make things much better.

    Just my opinion
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    • Profile picture of the author eskimoto
      Originally Posted by Louie Sioco View Post

      Think of it this way...
      1) Maybe the refunder wants to review your product and become an affiliate but doesn't really need the product
      2) Maybe your product is so good that people with no money make all the means to obtain a copy of it
      3) Maybe the person thought your products was something else, and was surprised it wasn't what he/she was looking for

      Don't bother understanding why they do these things anymore. I think it's an isolated case. Just worry about the people who bought your product. That would make things much better.

      Just my opinion

      Or the refunder is now selling this product on Fiverr or some blackhat website...
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  • Profile picture of the author WillR
    I think it is about time Clickbank rethought their refund policy. The reason their refund policy has been so laxed over the years is because they know themselves that a lot of the products being sold through their system are of poor quality and/or misleading.

    If the new vendor requirements they have implemented are suppose to clean up their marketplace and get rid of a lot of the crap products then they shouldn't need to be so laxed with their refund policy anymore. Their marketplace has become a well known hangout for serial refunders and those who want to purchase through their own affiliate link.
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    • Profile picture of the author genew
      Originally Posted by WillR View Post

      I think it is about time Clickbank rethought their refund policy. The reason their refund policy has been so laxed over the years is because they know themselves that a lot of the products being sold through their system are of poor quality and/or misleading.

      If the new vendor requirements they have implemented are suppose to clean up their marketplace and get rid of a lot of the crap products then they shouldn't need to be so laxed with their refund policy anymore. Their marketplace has become a well known hangout for serial refunders and those who want to purchase through their own affiliate link.
      I agree. I don't like selling on Clickbank anymore because of their "no questions asked" refund policy. In forums etc I often see people encourage others to "what the heck, go ahead and buy it, if you don't like it you can get a refund" just because it's on Clickbank.
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  • Profile picture of the author seobirk
    You probably do have a money back guarantee on your eBook. However, you can play it in a way that first hand you give the person a "free consultation" to hear what was wrong with it, why the customer didn't find it useful, is there a way you can help him/her out still and then if it won't work give the money back. This way if the person is going for a refund, you do all you can to understand why the customer didn't find it useful. And hopefully such refunders don't want to get into the hassle. At least keeps you in control of the situation
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    • Profile picture of the author John Romaine
      Originally Posted by WillR View Post

      I think it is about time Clickbank rethought their refund policy. The reason their refund policy has been so laxed over the years is because they know themselves that a lot of the products being sold through their system are of poor quality and/or misleading.

      If the new vendor requirements they have implemented are suppose to clean up their marketplace and get rid of a lot of the crap products then they shouldn't need to be so laxed with their refund policy anymore. Their marketplace has become a well known hangout for serial refunders and those who want to purchase through their own affiliate link.
      I would have to agree with you Will.

      Originally Posted by siocowiz View Post

      Think of it this way...
      1) Maybe the refunder wants to review your product and become an affiliate but doesn't really need the product
      If that were the case, I wouldve been far happier with a polite email asking for a review copy.

      Originally Posted by siocowiz View Post

      2) Maybe your product is so good that people with no money make all the means to obtain a copy of it
      Well that would be a nice thought

      Originally Posted by siocowiz View Post

      3) Maybe the person thought your products was something else, and was surprised it wasn't what he/she was looking for
      I offer a free trial sample that can be downloaded on my site. So not sure about that.

      Originally Posted by siocowiz View Post

      Don't bother understanding why they do these things anymore. I think it's an isolated case. Just worry about the people who bought your product. That would make things much better.

      Just my opinion
      You're right.

      Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

      It's not funny - or smart - but you have to look at it from a different perspective.

      This refund says nothing about your product or about you - the only thing it says is about the person who bought and immediately refunded.

      You are reacting normally in defense of the quality of your product - and that's not at issue. The real problem is a low class buyer/scammer.

      kay
      Well said Kay, and thanks. I admit, I posted this whilst being a bit emotional.

      Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

      I think, unfortunately, they may possibly be right in refusing to do that, because if they did, it could so easily be held against them and people would say "They're scammers because they don't honour their 60-day refund". And that would be bad for all of us. I think I do understand their policy, in that regard, to be honest.

      They do ban people who make a habit of it - this much I know, for sure. But you were caught by one who hasn't yet "made a habit of it". But given that they do ban people whom they classify as serial refunders there, I think they're probably right to honour all other refunds ... :confused:
      All valid points and I agree with you Alexa. Trying to decifer, at least from CB's perspective whats a legitimate request and what isn't, isn't probably something they want to get involved in - for obvious reasons. :confused:

      Originally Posted by seobirk View Post

      You probably do have a money back guarantee on your eBook. However, you can play it in a way that first hand you give the person a "free consultation" to hear what was wrong with it, why the customer didn't find it useful, is there a way you can help him/her out still and then if it won't work give the money back. This way if the person is going for a refund, you do all you can to understand why the customer didn't find it useful. And hopefully such refunders don't want to get into the hassle. At least keeps you in control of the situation
      Ive asked for a reason from the buyer. Yet to hear back.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mike Hill
    I would go out on a limb here and say that due to the quick refund this person may be putting your product up on one of those freebie download sites. On the bright side you've located a person who you should blacklist right away.

    Mike Hill
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  • Profile picture of the author colinph970
    The best response is to change your policy and not offer refunds......at least for this type of product
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  • Profile picture of the author webfighter
    That's why you never should give a no questions asked money back guarantee. I always try to convince those who ask for a refund and I've been able to keep some of them with myself.

    The problem is, you can seldom do anything about baseless refund requests. Even if you refuse to refund, these are the people who won't think twice before filing a chargeback. And with all kind of PayPal horror stories, I try to keep my record clean.
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  • Profile picture of the author AndrewStark
    I've refunded within 10 minutes of downloading when I found out that the salespage didn't match what the product said it would be.

    It could be that the person was overwhelmed with all this information you provided and thought I'll never get through all of this and decided to put the refund in as they're scared of hard work.

    As has been said if you keep your content inside a members area you can delete access just as fast as you can grant it.
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    • Profile picture of the author kindsvater
      Even if there is a refund policy, where there is obvious fraud I don't have a problem denying a refund.

      A refund policy is a contractual matter, and part of an enforceable contract is a lack of fraud and good faith and fair dealing dealing by both parties.

      It is not a license to steal.

      But since you're dealing with ClickBank you know the refund will be granted.

      You could go to ClickBank, read their refund policy very carefully, and tell them (1) there are no grounds for a refund, and (2) if ClickBank refunds that is on their nickel but you expect to be fully paid.

      (Undoubtedly, 5 minutes after purchase your product hit the Black Hat sites).

      .
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      • Profile picture of the author Dexx
        Originally Posted by kindsvater View Post

        Even if there is a refund policy, where there is obvious fraud I don't have a problem denying a refund.

        A refund policy is a contractual matter, and part of an enforceable contract is a lack of fraud and good faith and fair dealing dealing by both parties.
        Then they will most likely do a chargeback through their credit card company, which causes even more pain and hassle for you in the long run.

        Personally I just get the refund done and over with and focus on profit-generating activities.

        ~Dexx
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        • Profile picture of the author kindsvater
          Originally Posted by Dexx View Post

          Then they will most likely do a chargeback through their credit card company, which causes even more pain and hassle for you in the long run.
          Doubtful. Chargebacks are not automatic. What you do is what I've done, and I've never lost a chargeback, is supply all the documents including a timeline showing their receipt of the product and the fraud - and you request that the scammers credit card be terminated.

          Of course, since this is ClickBank they may not be as aggressive in defending your desire to not be defrauded.

          The ClickBank written policy is not an automatic refund policy. Too bad that is the way they treat it in practice.

          .
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  • Profile picture of the author Tsnyder
    colinph970 wrote:
    The best response is to change your policy and not offer refunds......at least for this type of product
    webfighter wrote:
    That's why you never should give a no questions asked money back guarantee. I always try to convince those who ask for a refund and I've been able to keep some of them with myself.
    Not possible if you sell through Click Bank. With Click Bank you
    aren't even the seller so you really have nothing to say about it.
    60 days... no questions asked... Click Bank refund policy... period.
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    If you knew what I know you'd be doing what I do...
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  • Profile picture of the author Dexx
    Don't think about how many serial refunders could be stopped by changing the guarantee...think about how many additional sales you've generated because of it.

    Serial refunders are infuriating, yes. But at the end of the day you are looking to increase sales, and a "no questions asked" refund policy will give the majority of your customers the risk-free confidence they need to buy from you.

    One of the best pieces of advice I heard from a Guru once (in terms of dealing with piracy) was:

    "Build your products so that even if you gave them away for free, you'd make money."

    Whether that's affiliate recommendations inside the report, promoting your other training materials, etc.

    The reality is, "theft" happens in the "real world" (physical retail stores, dine-and-dashes from restaurants, etc.), so it's only logical that it'd happen online as well (movie and music downloads, etc.)

    Just My 2 Cents

    ~Dexx
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    • Profile picture of the author scottmanesis
      Originally Posted by Dexx View Post

      Don't think about how many serial refunders could be stopped by changing the guarantee...think about how many additional sales you've generated because of it.

      Serial refunders are infuriating, yes. But at the end of the day you are looking to increase sales, and a "no questions asked" refund policy will give the majority of your customers the risk-free confidence they need to buy from you.

      One of the best pieces of advice I heard from a Guru once (in terms of dealing with piracy) was:

      "Build your products so that even if you gave them away for free, you'd make money."

      Whether that's affiliate recommendations inside the report, promoting your other training materials, etc.

      The reality is, "theft" happens in the "real world" (physical retail stores, dine-and-dashes from restaurants, etc.), so it's only logical that it'd happen online as well (movie and music downloads, etc.)

      Just My 2 Cents

      ~Dexx
      IMHO that is the best approach. Steal my stuff, you help me....go ahead. Karma is a biatch.
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  • Profile picture of the author underworld
    Banned
    He has clearly purchased with the intention of refunding and nothing can done about that.
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  • Profile picture of the author John Romaine
    Hey guys, Ive escalated this to CB support. Will post the outcome as soon as I hear back from them.

    Not sure Ill acheive anything, but its worth a try.

    Good night
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  • Profile picture of the author max5ty
    I may be way off base here -- since I've never done any selling over the internet, but I'm wondering...

    Why wouldn't you set up things so that you mail a great bonus to them (maybe samples, etc.)...in actual snail mail form.

    Just one example, but there's other ideas to use as well. Maybe a part II that they would get after 30 days, etc.

    Of course you would include shipping in the price.

    Then in order to get a refund, the person would have to mail the bonus back to you.

    It's so easy to download a PDF, then ask for a refund knowing they don't have to send the PDF back.

    Seems most of you could get creative with your offers.
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    • Profile picture of the author Dexx
      Originally Posted by max5ty View Post

      I may be way off base here -- since I've never done any selling over the internet, but I'm wondering...

      Why wouldn't you set up things so that you mail a great bonus to them (maybe samples, etc.)...in actual snail mail form.

      Just one example, but there's other ideas to use as well. Maybe a part II that they would get after 30 days, etc.

      Of course you would include shipping in the price.

      Then in order to get a refund, the person would have to mail the bonus back to you.

      It's so easy to download a PDF, then ask for a refund knowing they don't have to send the PDF back.

      Seems most of you could get creative with your offers.
      Because your conversion rate would plummet and cost you more in lost sales than you'd have made as a result of increased sales from a more appealing "no risk" offer.

      ~Dexx
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      • Profile picture of the author max5ty
        Originally Posted by Dexx View Post

        Because your conversion rate would plummet and cost you more in lost sales than you'd have made as a result of increased sales from a more appealing "no risk" offer.

        ~Dexx
        Ok Dexx, I see your point.

        I'm saying give them the meat and potatoes up front -- then send something later maybe in the mail that would be of value to keep them from refunding immediately.
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  • Profile picture of the author lovenot
    So what happened in the end? Does these kind of stuffs happen often when you deal with files online? How can you prevent people like that or tell when they aren't really normal customers?

    Is there no protection??

    Why wouldn't you set up things so that you mail a great bonus to them (maybe samples, etc.)...in actual snail mail form. Then in order to get a refund, the person would have to mail the bonus back to you.
    This is a good idea but snail mail means more work for us.
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    • Profile picture of the author R Hagel
      Originally Posted by lovenot View Post

      This is a good idea but snail mail means more work for us.
      Not necessarily. You can run it through a fulfillment company, so it can still be a hands-off operation.
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  • Profile picture of the author Ben Gordon
    Since I do offer a no questions asked money back guarantee I can't not give the money back... but what I do is I ask them why they wanted it in the first place.

    Then, if they don't reply I go into PayPal, find they address, email and name and practically SPAM them until they do give me an answer or reverse the money.
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    • Profile picture of the author Black Hat Cat
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Ben Gordon View Post

      Since I do offer a no questions asked money back guarantee I can't not give the money back... but what I do is I ask them why they wanted it in the first place.

      Then, if they don't reply I go into PayPal, find they address, email and name and practically SPAM them until they do give me an answer or reverse the money.
      So, basically, your no questions asked guarantee is a lie? Seriously.....what does "no questions asked" mean to you, lol?
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    • Profile picture of the author wsocrazy
      Lots of people ranting about serial refunders... but let me speak up for the other side too. Many people state they will give a refund but they never do. I've been scammed that way many times. In fact I've even bought plugins which the developer either sold to someone else or does not support anymore and that's just within a month or 2 from the date of release and my purchase... and I'm talking about plugins bought right here as WSOs. Scammers are there on both sides... gurus who know nothing and want to rip people off and serial refunders who want the product but have no intention of paying for it.

      But genuine people will survive and thrive... after all the times I've been scammed I've finally found people who really know their stuff and are honest and now I am making money following them and generally limit my purchases to only such people. Simlarly geniune product owners too will thrive and make good sales... nevermind the odd serial refunder.

      Originally Posted by Ben Gordon View Post

      Since I do offer a no questions asked money back guarantee I can't not give the money back... but what I do is I ask them why they wanted it in the first place.

      Then, if they don't reply I go into PayPal, find they address, email and name and practically SPAM them until they do give me an answer or reverse the money.
      Not sure what you mean here Ben. If you don't have an intention of giving a refund then why even promise it... just state clearly no refunds whatsoever/all sales final.
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  • Profile picture of the author espe
    why do you offer a refund policy?

    Are you actually telling them what they are getting for the money?
    if so there is no reason to offer a refund policy, people should understand that
    it took you time, effort to put that product for sale and if they are not *really* sure about
    buying your product they shouldn't.. after all you dont have nothing to hide so you do not have any obligation on giving them their money. They CAN'T give you your product and effort back!

    think about that.
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  • Profile picture of the author Ben Gordon
    Another solution is creating a DVD and shipping it to them. If they are unhappy then they simply ship the DVD back to you.

    Most serial refunders won't even want to do that so that'll keep them away.
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  • Profile picture of the author Alan Petersen
    I sell a template and I do not offer a refund. It's not on ClickBank obviously but since they get the actual source file, I do not offer a refund.

    No way would I offer 80 business contracts in the IM niche on ClickBank, home of the serial refunder!

    You should get those business documents/templates type products off of ClickBank. That way you can either control your refund process or just not offer one.
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    • Profile picture of the author John Romaine
      Originally Posted by Alan Petersen View Post

      No way would I offer 80 business contracts in the IM niche on ClickBank, home of the serial refunder!
      My product isnt in the IM niche.

      Im still waiting to hear back from CB. Id say it might take a day or two.

      The more I think about it, the more Im thinking it might be worthwhile considering a service like kunaki.
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      • Profile picture of the author Alan Petersen
        Originally Posted by ramone_johnny View Post

        My product isnt in the IM niche.

        Im still waiting to hear back from CB. Id say it might take a day or two.

        The more I think about it, the more Im thinking it might be worthwhile considering a service like kunaki.
        Legal Zoom does that. If you want a refund you have to mail back the materials to them and then they'll refund you. You would have more control over of the process.
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  • Profile picture of the author max5ty
    I'm simply saying that by offering a killer bonus via snail mail, etc., you quickly eliminate the serial refunder -- they also have the added work of returning the bonus for a refund. If the bonus is advertised right, they'll be eager for it to arrive.

    If they decide to resell your WSO anywhere else, the person reading it will want the bonus (as long as you mention it in your PDF).

    If properly done...I think it would be a solution.

    Most serial refunders, knowing they have to return an actual tangible item, are less likely to take the risk of buying -- serious buyers would only look forward to the bonus arriving.
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  • Profile picture of the author dgaubatz
    I hate hearing that, they just buy download,do whatever they do with it, get refund and move on.

    This isn't a software product, info products are harder to lock up. Even with a members area they can still get their info and get a refund.

    Even people who do get banned after making a habit with it can still make another account under a proxy server.

    What difference does it make to mail them a good bonus if they cancel within 4 minutes?

    What is your refund rate? Sometimes people with clickbank can be real frustrating. These kinds of things, sometimes can cost you customers, because you could have a good product, with people that still will get refunds even though the product helped them and drive your refund rate up. Half the time before i have bought a product on clickbank i check the refund rate too and with someone else doing that, the difference between a 4% and 6% refund rate can cost a sell even though the other 2% could be from these dishonest refunders.

    I know this is not something you want to do, especially if you do the research and their isn't much demand for the topic your dealing with. You could expand your business beyond Clickbank, put your stuff on dvd or print in packages and sell on Ebay. First you could do all the shipping yourself and if everything actually grew and went really good you can go even further and use a fulfillment center (amazon has one) they will deal with the storage and the shipping, sometimes even handle customer service. It's a long shot... just felt like putting it out there.
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  • Profile picture of the author LeeLee
    Pardon my lack of technical jargon, I can only wrap my mind around concepts.

    There is a way to lock a document that you are offering for download. The receiver of the download must request the password from you in order to open it.

    This won't stop serial refunders but it might slow a few of them down or even give them pause.
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  • Profile picture of the author JimmyRose
    I wonder how many of my refunders think they are getting away with a free copy only to have it remotely shut down Benefits of a software product.
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    • Profile picture of the author Dexx
      Originally Posted by JimmyRose View Post

      I wonder how many of my refunders think they are getting away with a free copy only to have it remotely shut down Benefits of a software product.
      Unless they download it to crack it.

      If Windows and other mega million software companies have to constantly fight piracy, you can bet it'll happen to your software to if they really put the effort in...such is the life of internet pirates.

      ~Dexx
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  • Profile picture of the author IMWinner
    I don't have problem about giving refunds, as long as the buyer can justify his/her claim about returning the item that he bought. Although there are people that wanted the item as free, and that, after using the item for some time, they will demand for a refund. And that's what I have learn that I have to impose time of warranty and the date that I allowed items to be shipped back to me.
    A friend of mine was selling DVDs in eBay and that he had closed an agreement with his buyer who purchases two of his DVDs. It was brand new and 6 days after it was received by the buyer, he demanded that it was not a good copy. I was having this assumption that the buyer just wanted to view that movie then will demand a refund for something that he claimed as not a clear copy of the movie.
    Be careful sellers, for buyers who are attempting to have their money back after utilizing the item that you sell.
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  • Profile picture of the author Matt Poc
    Ha ha, that has happenned for me a few times, I am happy that I am not alone, because sometimes when someone requests a refund it hurts me a little bit

    But as other people said, it's a cost of doing business.
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  • Profile picture of the author Bruce NewMedia
    Have to say I empathize with the OP....

    and while I get very few refund requests, those few are usually immediately after purchase, and rather rude about it, as well...."Refund" is often all they write, like they are barking out a command to some underling or whatever!

    I've always felt the biggest value you get in a buying a product, any information product, is the seller's assistance and support - likely worth more than the product itself...so refunding so quickly robs the buyer of the full experience anyway.

    Anyway, I've been investigating ways to protect my products more and ran across this recently. (not an affiliate link) http://www.digitallockdownpro.com/

    I always hesitate on these technologies, figuring they will be more work than they're worth...any opinions?
    _____
    Bruce NewMedia
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  • Profile picture of the author John Romaine
    Well unfortunately I just got a refund confirmation email from CB.

    No questions, no discussions, nothing.

    They just refunded it.

    F'ing lousy.
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    • Profile picture of the author genew
      Originally Posted by ramone_johnny View Post

      Well unfortunately I just got a refund confirmation email from CB.

      No questions, no discussions, nothing.

      They just refunded it.

      F'ing lousy.
      Yea, it is lousy, but that's what clickbank has become
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  • Profile picture of the author Sabiha
    I googled "ebook lock upon refund" and found two products with which you can put a digital lock on your product specially if the buyer gets a refund on them.

    One is a one time payment product. EBooksWriter, add "Lock to PC" personal key protection to your ebook
    The other is a monthly subscription type. :: CB Protect :: The Virtual Vault Total Protection System

    Hope these help...
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  • Profile picture of the author John Romaine
    Yeah, pretty dissapointing outcome.

    Just a matter of time before I ditch CB altogether and start pushing physical products.

    Im growing tired of Clickbanks ways.

    I mean, can you imagine walking into a store, purchasing a product, then returning 4 minutes later demanding a refund, then getting to keep it????

    It just wouldnt happen.
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    • Profile picture of the author celente
      Originally Posted by ramone_johnny View Post

      Yeah, pretty dissapointing outcome.

      Just a matter of time before I ditch CB altogether and start pushing physical products.

      Im growing tired of Clickbanks ways.

      I mean, can you imagine walking into a store, purchasing a product, then returning 4 minutes later demanding a refund, then getting to keep it????

      It just wouldnt happen.

      Hey ramone,

      I make my living on clickbank and other sources. but we have added a physical product (as affiliate in a popular niche ) to the mix. Our commissions are $800 every sale, and its going gang busters.

      We have had a few refunds, but by the time people see the value rocking up at their door, and the extra suppor they get its killer.

      I hate when people order, and then 2 minutes later refund.

      Sometimes on a statement I have seen somone refund exactly 1 minute after order time. Insane. But we are digital marketers and I guess you just have to accept that.

      I do recommend you get into physical products though. They are much easier to sell if you spend a bit of time with funnels and pre selling. But its worth it.
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      • Profile picture of the author John Romaine
        Originally Posted by celente View Post

        Hey ramone,

        I make my living on clickbank and other sources. but we have added a physical product (as affiliate in a popular niche ) to the mix. Our commissions are $800 every sale, and its going gang busters.

        We have had a few refunds, but by the time people see the value rocking up at their door, and the extra suppor they get its killer.

        I hate when people order, and then 2 minutes later refund.

        Sometimes on a statement I have seen somone refund exactly 1 minute after order time. Insane. But we are digital marketers and I guess you just have to accept that.

        I do recommend you get into physical products though. They are much easier to sell if you spend a bit of time with funnels and pre selling. But its worth it.
        Hey celente, thanks for commenting.

        Out of interest, do you actually handle the physical products themselves or are you using a service like Kunaki?

        Id be very interested in hearing from those that moved from digital products to physical and whether or not this reduced refunds significantly.
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  • Profile picture of the author John Romaine
    Just received an email from Clickbank client support. Thought Id share it.

    Hello John,
    Thank you for your inquiry. We understand how frustrating it can be to have a customer receive a refund for a product that has already been fulfilled. If a customer states that they want help, then we always refer them to you first. However, when one of your customers contacts us and requests or demands a refund, we will refund the order as long as the request is within our 60 day refund policy.

    Refunding the transaction immediately protects your account from chargebacks

    A chargeback occurs when the customer goes through his credit card company to obtain a refund. In this case, the charge is reversed from the vendor's account plus a bank fee is debited from the account. This fee may range from $5 to $50, and is dictated by factors beyond our control.

    Please keep in mind that with credit cards the customer can always receive a refund -- if not through the Vendor or ClickBank, then through their own issuing bank. Most banks will always provide a chargeback, no questions asked.

    Fortunately, most people are honest and it does not happen very often.

    Thank you for your understanding in this matter.
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  • Profile picture of the author LegitIncomes
    Originally Posted by ramone_johnny View Post

    I just received a refund request on a product that contains a 217 page ebook, along with 80 ready made business contracts. This is a product that I invested quite literally 3 months of my time and approximately $3,000 to put together.

    Receiving the refund request isnt what made me upset. Its the fact that I received the refund request just 4 minutes after purchase.

    Now think about it. It would've taken at least a minute to finalise the payment, then probably another minute to download and extract the files. Then of course, at least 2 minutes to go about actually raising the refund request itself.

    I really dont see how its possible that this person could have even LOOKED at the material in this kit, let alone feel that it didnt meet his expectations!

    I do apologise for venting but this infuriates me!

    To those of you who think that its "funny" or "smart" to purchase products then immediately refund them, let me tell you - ITS NOT.

    Im trying to make a living here, just like everyone else. Ive got rent to pay, bills and living expenses too.

    </rant>
    Yes, this kind of things irritates me too.

    I would venture that over 90% of the refunds I get, are what you described above, and as you said, they couldn't have possibly looked over the information. I believe their intention from the very beginning was to purchase, and then refund.

    But, when you offer a 100% guarantee, what else is there to do except refund and move on?

    Best thing to do is just not worry about it, someone who is a "serial refunder" is never going to be successful anyway, so we have the last laugh.
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  • Profile picture of the author LegitIncomes
    I had another "serial refunder" request a refund within the last few hours.
    So I notice their huge sig file promoting their product, and I click on it.

    At the very bottom, not even in the sales page copy itself, but a link at the very bottom in very small font (much smaller than the sales page text) I find their refund policy. And what is this policy? No refunds.

    Why doesn't that surprise me? LOL
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  • Profile picture of the author yragcom1
    We need to look at it like this: if you've got everything set up right, not only are you selling a product, but you're also building a list. Even if they DO ask for a refund, you still have the lead. Maybe something else will get them next time. Always a upside.
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    • Profile picture of the author dylanloh
      May I offer a little bit of defense for Clickbank?

      1. I agree that instant refund-ers are annoying and to be honest I don't know if Clickbank really do 'blacklist' them as they claim they do.

      2. BUT Clickbank has been responding to changes and will continue to morph. I can think of a few examples of changes that has been borne out of comments/complaints/suggestions: Expansion of ad offerings to not just the login page, the implementation of a JV contract system within Clickbank, 2nd tier payments for easy JV recruitment, customized order pages, creation of master accounts, direct deposit payments, 1 click upsells...etc...while not forgetting to mention the good parties they throw at their meetups I think they DO listen and if its worthwhile (or loud enough) they are willing to evolve.

      3. I don't think its such a good idea to give up just because of these refund-ers. This is my personal opinion. One reason why - the huge amount of affiliates Clickbank can offer. They have over 100,000 affiliates and about 35% of those are active money making affiliates. If you have a good product and good copy, affiliates will pick it up and promote...making you good residual income doing almost no promotion on your end. I don't think any other payment processors allows for such easy creation of an affiliate link (just plug in your Clickbank ID!) in such a easy, simple method.

      Real life example: My good friend created a guide for a (then) popular game. Affiliates picked it up like mad and it banked him half a million in that year. He had no prior JVs in that niche and no list. I have to say this was only possible using the Clickbank platform.

      4. Yes, you might not get that much refunds using other processors but you might not get that many sales as well.

      5. The people are actually quite nice and responsive. This is my personal opinion dealing with my account representatives.

      Hope this balances the argument a little!
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