The NEW Fake Screenshot?

by WillR
98 replies
Is it just me or have others noticed a big increase in the amount of people now using images of cheques as their so-called income proof? I can see it's becoming VERY popular in the WSO forum.

I'm sorry, but when I see a cheque scribbled with some random amount I give that about as much weight as I would the good old Clickbank screenshot. Yes, we all know how simple it is to have your friend write a cheque out in your name... and I love the way they always block out the information on the cheque that actually means anything... 'for security reasons' of course!

I must say, these days I actually believe the claims of a product more so when I DON'T see any proof of income provided. The moment I see a screenshot or an image of a cheque I know it's more than likely a fabrication (who are we trying to kid, right?) and their sales pitch loses all credibility.

What are your thoughts? Are the use of earnings screenshots the sign of a weak salesman?

#fake #screenshot
  • Profile picture of the author IM Godfather
    The cheque is right up there with the fancy sports car for me.

    In general if you are making *that* much money doing something so secret, why would you ever sell it for $37-97? That's right you wouldn't
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    • Profile picture of the author AdwordsMogul
      Originally Posted by IM Godfather View Post

      The cheque is right up there with the fancy sports car for me.

      In general if you are making *that* much money doing something so secret, why would you ever sell it for $37-97? That's right you wouldn't
      Not true. If a 100 people buy you will make $3700 - $9700. A thousand -> $37000 - $97000.

      Enough to buy a couple of nice toys, or a gift for your favourite damsel. Few people say no to a bit of extra cash.
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      • Profile picture of the author WillR
        Originally Posted by AdwordsMogul View Post

        Not true. If a 100 people buy you will make $3700 - $9700. A thousand -> $37000 - $97000.

        Enough to buy a couple of nice toys, or a gift for your favourite damsel. Few people say no to a bit of extra cash.
        Let's get serious. The guys who are releasing the new WSO every 2 weeks (and there are quite a few of them) are making more money from the WSO's than the methods they are selling. There is no question. That is why they focus the majority of their time on the WSO creation. They wouldn't have time to properly implement all the methods they are selling.

        This doesn't apply for those selling softwares or tools because obviously they are not claiming any specific results.
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        • Profile picture of the author fitz10
          Originally Posted by WillR View Post

          That is why they focus the majority of their time on the WSO creation. They wouldn't have time to properly implement all the methods they are selling.
          This is probably true for many serial WSO creators, but some people just outsource it so they're not really wasting their own time.
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          • Profile picture of the author WillR
            Originally Posted by fitz10 View Post

            This is probably true for many serial WSO creators, but some people just outsource it so they're not really wasting their own time.
            If it's a technique they are claiming ownership of and they are outsourcing the creation of it, that's even worse! But you can see through these people pretty quickly. I can spot the money grabbers from a mile away. What a lot of them don't seem to realize is, if they created better quality products from the get-go they wouldn't need to create so many of them, so often.

            1 quality product will easily outsell 4 crap products - with a lot less work too.
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            • Profile picture of the author fitz10
              Originally Posted by WillR View Post

              If it's a technique they are claiming ownership of and they are outsourcing the creation of it, that's even worse! But you can see through these people pretty quickly. What a lot of them don't seem to realize is, if they created better quality products from the get-go they wouldn't need to create so many of them.
              I should have clarified. That would be terrible if that was their technique. Although I do think it happens.

              In my original statement I meant some marketers will doing something like create a video, which only takes a few hours, and then outsource things like the transcriptions and making mindmaps out to someone else. Their total time making the project could be only a few hours thus not really wasting much of their own time.
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        • Profile picture of the author salegurus
          Originally Posted by WillR View Post

          Let's get serious. The guys who are releasing the new WSO every 2 weeks (and there are quite a few of them) are making more money from the WSO's than the methods they are selling. There is no question. That is why they focus the majority of their time on the WSO creation. They wouldn't have time to properly implement all the methods they are selling.
          Totally agree, the problem is that there are tons of desperate people willing to believe any outrages claim made by these sellers. And in fact the more outrages and unbelieveable the claim the better the WSO seems to sell...
          It's a damn shame it's being overrun by all the BS, there are some very good deals every now and then...

          Final Thought
          I wish more people would actually post their results, how often do you see: "Yes i followed the steps explained, did all the work and 2 weeks later i made X amount" or " I did everything explained in the WSO and a month later i have not made a dime"
          Cheers
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          • Profile picture of the author WillR
            Originally Posted by salegurus View Post

            Final Thought
            I wish more people would actually post their results, how often do you see: "Yes i followed the steps explained, did all the work and 2 weeks later i made X amount" or " I did everything explained in the WSO and a month i have not made a dime"
            Cheers
            Thats true BUT there are two problems with that:

            1. The 80/20 rule applies here. This means the majority of people who purchase a product will never take any action and thus will never have any quantifiable results to speak of. That's not to say the product does not do what it states. It just means most people are lazy and/or lack focus.

            2. Even if x amount of people told you they made x amount of dollars using this technique, the majority of people still expect to achieve those results by doing nothing. The truth is you don't get anything by doing nothing. Two people following the exact same system will always have two very different results and that comes down to motivation and persistence.
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            • Profile picture of the author Cogitationalist
              Honestly, with increasing skepticism nowadays, what really is the ideal way to provide proof? No one thing can be faked and others cannot, and there will always be someone who won't believe whatever money is being presented to them in whatever form is real.

              I think the best way to do things nowadays is with a video. I mean, if you insist on needing to know whether or not someone is earning, and NEED to use that to gauge whether or not their product is worth it for you..what can they do?

              I think there are two options. Both require a video, and both can be faked anyway. The first obvious choice is to go and get a bunch of cash and just present it. Money doesn't come from nowhere, so if someone has $50,000 on a table and they're saying they made it from what you're gonna buy, then you may as well just believe it. They either..know someone who has 50k cash to 'borrow' and film, made money elsewhere and went and did that anyway..or just have counterfeit bills. How paranoid/skeptical do you wanna be, is the real question.

              Secondly, they can record a video of their screen, be it with a recorder like Camtasia or a legit video camera recording a monitor..and just go through the motions of logging in and viewing their account information. Yeah, maybe that might be super 'secure' for whatever bits of info being onscreen not meant to be public, but that's part of what I'm driving at. To what end does a person have to go nowadays to prove that they mean what they say, that their credible? You used to need a college degree if you didn't want to be a deadbeat (or I guess be a gambler or criminal..some illegal means of making a living) and you can now get rich with a good idea and some hardcore time spent on the internet doing research.

              I don't know, if people can't read through the copy, gauge how much work was put into presenting something and just decide for themselves if they think someone is worth it I really ask what good proof images are anyway. Yeah, okay, if a guy can prove he's made a million bucks with something it does mean more than a guy who can't prove he's made a tenner. But I like to think that I can determine for myself whether or not something is worth it by looking through it. Proof is nice when it's done well, but you can't fight paranoia. Proof helps conversions, so therefore it should be there, that's just common sense. It shouldn't be too hard to provide SOMETHING that doesn't look completely doctored, even if you don't have anything.
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              • Profile picture of the author WillR
                Originally Posted by Cogitationalist View Post

                Honestly, with increasing skepticism nowadays, what really is the ideal way to provide proof?
                Great question and the answer is simple.

                A strong refund policy. A refund is the only thing that cannot be faked. If you are willing to give people their money back if the product does not work for them (no questions asked) then you shouldn't need to use any screenshots to back up your claims. You should be willing to take all the risk if you truly believe your product does what it claims.
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                • Profile picture of the author Paul Barrs
                  Originally Posted by Cogitationalist View Post

                  Honestly, with increasing skepticism nowadays, what really is the ideal way to provide proof?
                  Originally Posted by WillR View Post

                  Great question and the answer is simple.

                  A strong refund policy. A refund is the only thing that cannot be faked. If you are willing to give people their money back if the product does not work for them (no questions asked) then you shouldn't need to use any screenshots to back up your claims. You should be willing to take all the risk if you truly believe your product does what it claims.
                  Will - Fantastic Answer!

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                  • Profile picture of the author Jill Carpenter
                    Great job on the check Will! Wishing you many more.
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                  • Profile picture of the author Ru1N
                    Although I have yet to purchase a WSO, here is how the process would work for me.

                    I read a lot of the free methods on here, there are a bunch that are very credible and do work. Those who release this free information for the community, gain my trust. Thus, if they release something that I need to pay for, I am more likely to buy it.

                    For me it is a trust factor. If you have given me information I can use, and be successful with, then of course I would like to bite into whatever else you can give me.

                    I am also more likely to believe a method that claims, "10-25 dollars a day doing virtually nothing"

                    Or, "you may not make much, but it's enough for pocket change"

                    Why? Because these claims are typically based in reality...and if it is a good idea...it will be scalable. Would I pay for this kind of information? Probably not. I'm not rich by any means, but I have a decent job and make some good side money.

                    When I was in highschool I probably would have snatched this type of thing up...but now that I am older and wiser.

                    Despite being unethical, scammers just confuse me. Anyone who willingly and knowingly takes advantage of someone elses insecurities or short comings, is not fit to be labeled a human being.

                    Most people who live by ABC and do everything they can to get the sale, are unhappy people and cause others to be unhappy. Check out Glengarry Glen Ross and Boiler Room.

                    Anyways, that's just my little rant, you want me to buy, gain my trust..haha
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                    • Profile picture of the author AdwordsMogul
                      Originally Posted by Ru1N View Post

                      ....Anyone who willingly and knowingly takes advantage of someone elses insecurities or short comings, is not fit to be labeled a human being.
                      ...
                      With all due respect...

                      This is the warm, fuzzy stuff that keeps people broke. Everybody makes money on someone else's shortcomings. MacDonalds, the government, banks, fashion designers, you name it.

                      Everybody buys based on their insecurities. Everybody. Including you and me.
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                      • Profile picture of the author Ru1N
                        Originally Posted by AdwordsMogul View Post

                        With all due respect...

                        This is the warm, fuzzy stuff that keeps people broke. Everybody makes money on someone else's shortcomings. MacDonalds, the government, banks, fashion designers, you name it.

                        Everybody buys based on their insecurities. Everybody. Including you and me.
                        Very True, but that does not make them any less scum does it? If everyone went around eating poop, it would not make it any more healthy.

                        But I guess what I mean was that, people who purposefully trick and decieve others. Like Bernie Madoff, or any pyramid/ponzi scheme. When you show a check and say you earned this...and its a lie...that's what makes it wrong...it's like the tobacco company claiming that tobacco does not cause cancer. It's wrong to do so.

                        Editing a check or screenshot is done with full intent to deceive.
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                • Profile picture of the author dorianjohn425
                  Originally Posted by WillR View Post

                  Great question and the answer is simple.

                  A strong refund policy. A refund is the only thing that cannot be faked. If you are willing to give people their money back if the product does not work for them (no questions asked) then you shouldn't need to use any screenshots to back up your claims. You should be willing to take all the risk if you truly believe your product does what it claims.
                  I strongly agree with your sentiment. With all the fakeness we see out there, the only real thing that we can probably bank on is the refund policy (although, some may be fake as well). But, a good refund policy should be enough proof that the system or product works. That alone should tell people to stop placing images of fake results and statements of fake money earned.
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        • Profile picture of the author IM Godfather
          Originally Posted by Gordon Gekko View Post

          Yeah exactly, pal. That's why one of the most profitable niches is creating a product teaching people how to sell WSO's. Basically, the blind leading the blind. If you can't make money, then teach others how to make money.
          That's pretty much the Internet Marketing niche in general though to be fair... or maybe the old saying: "Those who can, do -- Those who can't, teach"

          It would have more authenticity to simply say: "Listen, I've bought every program out there about XXXXX and here is the best info I've compiled"
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      • Profile picture of the author IM Godfather
        Originally Posted by AdwordsMogul View Post

        Not true. If a 100 people buy you will make $3700 - $9700. A thousand -> $37000 - $97000.

        Enough to buy a couple of nice toys, or a gift for your favourite damsel. Few people say no to a bit of extra cash.
        It's also rather easy to
        a) Test Drive a nice car
        b) Rent a nice car

        Perhaps the point should be .. let your software/tool/program speak for itself. Because there is no real "proof" that the cheque or the car, etc actually came from the specific thing you are being asked to buy.
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    • Profile picture of the author Ray Erdmann
      Originally Posted by IM Godfather View Post

      The cheque is right up there with the fancy sports car for me.

      In general if you are making *that* much money doing something so secret, why would you ever sell it for $37-97? That's right you wouldn't
      I'm with you on that..if I was making *that much money*...and I actually decided to sell my secrets...You better bet the house I'd be charging at least $997...if not higher...

      Just because someone sells something at $37, $47 or even $67...doesn't always mean MORE PEOPLE will buy it versus those who would buy at say a price point of $197, $297 or even $997...and if you think differently, then I'm open to hearing how that thought process can be PROVEN with ACTUAL FACTS!
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    • Profile picture of the author JustVisiting
      Originally Posted by IM Godfather View Post

      The cheque is right up there with the fancy sports car for me.

      In general if you are making *that* much money doing something so secret, why would you ever sell it for $37-97? That's right you wouldn't
      Sales funnel...

      First Product $37 - $97

      Second product $197 - $297+

      Third Product $997+ Online Coaching


      Just a thought


      Cheers

      Paul
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    • Profile picture of the author PatrickP
      Originally Posted by IM Godfather View Post

      The cheque is right up there with the fancy sports car for me.

      In general if you are making *that* much money doing something so secret, why would you ever sell it for $37-97? That's right you wouldn't

      Post of the decade right here!


      Exactly why rich dad is a bunch of crap. He made his money selling his book via MLM

      It reminds me how there are WSOs that tell you how to do a WSO lol It is like a new type of ponzi scam
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  • Profile picture of the author AdwordsMogul
    Originally Posted by WillR View Post

    ...
    What are your thoughts? Are the use of earnings screenshots the sign of a weak salesman?
    If the shots increase sales, they are a sign of a smart salesman. Of course, they need to be real.
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    • Profile picture of the author kbailey1734
      Originally Posted by AdwordsMogul View Post

      If the shots increase sales, they are a sign of a smart salesman. Of course, they need to be real.
      Which often times are not real though
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  • Profile picture of the author fitz10
    I definitely agree with you and it's quite obvious that the check thing can be fabricated. I don't use income shots in any of my marketing but it seems to be exactly what people in the WSO forum and Clickbank junkies crave. I don't know if it's week salesmanship so much as people catering to the desires of their audience.
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  • Profile picture of the author petelta
    Originally Posted by WillR View Post

    Is it just me or have others noticed a big increase in the amount of people now using images of cheques as their so-called income proof? I can see it's becoming VERY popular in the WSO forum.

    I'm sorry, but when I see a cheque scribbled with some random amount I give that about as much weight as I would the good old Clickbank screenshot. Yes, we all know how simple it is to have your friend write a cheque out in your name... and I love the way they always block out the information on the cheque that actually means anything... 'for security reasons' of course!

    I must say, these days I actually believe the claims of a product more so when I DON'T see any proof of income provided. The moment I see a screenshot or an image of a cheque I know it's more than likely a fabrication (who are we trying to kid, right?) and their sales pitch loses all credibility.

    What are your thoughts? Are the use of earnings screenshots the sign of a weak salesman?
    I agree with you Will that when I see a proof shot it means nothing... because more than likely it's faked.

    But, as a regular WSO creator, proof boosts conversions big time. I don't think you should release a product on "how to do method x" without being able to show you have done it successfully yourself.

    I think as long as you look into the product creator a little bit or you join their list, you will know if they are for real or not.

    Travis
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Barrs
      Originally Posted by WillR View Post

      Is it just me or have others noticed a big increase in the amount of people now using images of cheques as their so-called income proof? I can see it's becoming VERY popular in the WSO forum.
      Will, I would like to see these "income claims" banned completely. Having working in the trenches for over a decade now I know for FACT that many of them are BS... just from personal experience.

      But it's not me that get's bummed, its' the poor sob "we-beleive-in-BS-dreams" that get's nicked and then he's left thinking we're all liars.

      Seems that gone are the days that quality of product means anything - it's just "look at me", "look at me", "look at me".

      Originally Posted by petelta View Post

      I agree with you Will that when I see a proof shot it means nothing... because more than likely it's faked.

      But, as a regular WSO creator, proof boosts conversions big time. I don't think you should release a product on "how to do method x" without being able to show you have done it successfully yourself.
      And there's the problem Travis... "proof"... a .gif or a .jpg or a 'check' or 'bank statement' ISN'T PROOF. It's just an image.

      I see it as a shining example of piss-poor sales copy.

      Paul Barrs
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      • Profile picture of the author Bill Farnham
        Originally Posted by Paul Barrs View Post

        I would like to see these "income claims" banned completely. Having working in the trenches for over a decade now I know for FACT that many of them are BS... just from personal experience.
        Wait a minute Paul, half of those products have only one useful purpose in being created...they give hope to the lazy.

        Please don't tell me you're in favor taking that away from them...:rolleyes:

        ~Bill
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        • Profile picture of the author Paul Barrs
          Originally Posted by Bill Farnham View Post

          Wait a minute Paul, half of those products have only one useful purpose in being created...they give hope to the lazy.

          Please don't tell me you're in favor taking that away from them...:rolleyes:

          ~Bill
          Bill.. "one" useful purpose? You're being generous!

          However, for many of them, HOPE may be the ONLY thing they offer LOL.

          P.
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      • Profile picture of the author Shannon Herod
        Originally Posted by Paul Barrs View Post

        Will, I would like to see these "income claims" banned completely. Having working in the trenches for over a decade now I know for FACT that many of them are BS... just from personal experience.

        But it's not me that get's bummed, its' the poor sob "we-beleive-in-BS-dreams" that get's nicked and then he's left thinking we're all liars.

        Seems that gone are the days that quality of product means anything - it's just "look at me", "look at me", "look at me".



        And there's the problem Travis... "proof"... a .gif or a .jpg or a 'check' or 'bank statement' ISN'T PROOF. It's just an image.

        I see it as a shining example of piss-poor sales copy.

        Paul Barrs
        Well said Paul, and I completely agree. I actually used income screen shots once and after I produced the video i felt sick to my stomach, so I never used it.

        Not to mention that 99% of the WSO offers are in direct violation of FTC regulation regarding income claims. I wonder how many know what the "average" user of their products make. I bet 0% do.

        Shannon
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        • Profile picture of the author retirewithsandie
          Originally Posted by John Alves View Post

          I don't visit the forum too often because I don't buy anything there. However, from what I have seen in the past, most WSOs that make a lot of money are sold with earning screen shots or they are sold by Warrior Forum members that are well known and have built up reputation.
          I've bought from folks who have been around since the beginning of time, those who are pretty new & all those inbetween.

          I've had a few I've bought that had income "proof" but that's not why I bought. Many of them *didn't* have it but were hounded by others requesting it so they put it up. And one the other day the poor fella was hounded by someone who wanted proof that the income he did finally put up was from the WSO & not from other ventures.

          Sometimes you can't win for losing. Some people will never be satisfied regardless of what you do.

          Originally Posted by PatrickP View Post


          What do you suggest for a WSOer to verify income?
          As others stated, stand behind your product & honor your refund policy (which is not required but if you do have one honor it). Give it a reasonable time frame to take into account time folks to watch videos & implement especially if they're 45 to an hour not everyone is going to have time to watch in one sitting.


          Originally Posted by Gordon Gekko View Post

          I've always said that I'm only impressed with a product when I see that a buyer of the product has gotten results. I know that can be easily faked as well. But if you can show me someone whose really made money with your system. Of course you'd have verify those claims as well, but still, that to me, holds more weight than everything else.
          Originally Posted by fitz10 View Post

          Further, this proof can just as easily be faked as those check shots. Who's to say someone couldn't hire someone to write a post about how they're having mega success with this WSO and everyone better buy, buy, buy?
          Agree...very few come back to tell of their experiences. And many cases unless someone is specifically looking for that thread because they saved it or looking for that topic they're not going to see it unless the WSO seller pays to bump it up because by the time it takes to truly implement & earn or see results if SEO/Traffic related, it could be on page 10 by then. I doubt many folks searching by pages would go past 3 or 4.

          Even the "make money in the next 30 seconds" products rarely have folks coming back within a 24-48 hours even. Now there might be, but the ones I've seen haven't had that. Even a week out, folks are still inquiring if anyone has actually taken action & gotten results.
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          • Profile picture of the author Jill Carpenter
            Originally Posted by PatrickP View Post

            What do you suggest for a WSOer to verify income?


            What Brian said above, and basically reputation.

            A couple of crumbs of where you've been on the internet and what you have done can give me enough to make my own judgement.
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  • Profile picture of the author imdomination
    I don't trust screenshots either, and that's one of the reasons I don't include them in my products.

    Too many people faking them these days, it's to the point where even videos can be faked.
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    • Profile picture of the author E. Brian Rose
      Originally Posted by imdomination View Post

      it's to the point where even videos can be faked.
      Lol. Ya up until now everything on tv has been real.
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  • Profile picture of the author ProfessorSeo
    Banned
    Yea it is pretty easy to fake a check but this has been going on for years! It's sad but its hard to tell what's real and what's fake. But luckily we can read reviews and check Google for scams.

    I have purchased so much crappy products from clickbank it should be a crime thank God for refunds!
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    • Profile picture of the author timpears
      Originally Posted by ProfessorSeo View Post

      Yea it is pretty easy to fake a check but this has been going on for years! It's sad but its hard to tell what's real and what's fake. But luckily we can read reviews and check Google for scams.
      I have gotten to the point that I don't even read the testimonials any more. Some WSO's have more testimonial text than they do sales text. I think most of it is just friends and acquaintances giving each other a boost. You do it for me, and I will do it for you next time you create a WSO. Maybe I am wrong, but that is how it seems to me.
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  • Profile picture of the author MarkJones
    Income claims have been around for years, "scammers" are just getting smarter about how they make these claims...

    The best are the people logging into their "Clickbank" accounts showing *real* proof of income which really is just a flash video that has been made..

    But as said above, if it increases sales and is real why not use it..

    Mark
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    • Profile picture of the author WillR
      Originally Posted by MarkJones View Post

      Income claims have been around for years, "scammers" are just getting smarter about how they make these claims...

      The best are the people logging into their "Clickbank" accounts showing *real* proof of income which really is just a flash video that has been made..

      But as said above, if it increases sales and is real why not use it..

      Mark
      Exactly. Even if it were a REAL video of them logging in to their Clickbank account it does not prove the income we are seeing was actually derived from the method they are trying to sell us. It's just as likely the income *proof* they show us is money made from them selling other similar 'how to make money' products.

      I remember a few people were caught out doing exactly that a few years ago.
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  • Profile picture of the author Will Perkins
    I've noticed this myself, but never really thought about it until recently.

    I used checks myself in some of my WSOs, just makes you wonder how many people actually are using fake ones...
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  • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
    Originally Posted by WillR View Post

    Yes, we all know how simple it is to have your friend write a cheque out in your name...
    It isn't even that much trouble ... 5 minutes in Photoshop and I can have an image of a check in any amount from anyone you want. What's next, fake celebrity endorsements?
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    • Profile picture of the author Will Perkins
      Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

      It isn't even that much trouble ... 5 minutes in Photoshop and I can have an image of a check in any amount from anyone you want. What's next, fake celebrity endorsements?
      Aww you mean if I had Bill Gates saying buy this you wouldn't think it was real? Darn...
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      • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
        Originally Posted by Will Perkins View Post

        Aww you mean if I had Bill Gates saying buy this you wouldn't think it was real? Darn...
        If you said it, Will, then it would surely be true. It's "those other guys" I would be skeptical about. Besides, everyone knows Bill Gates is one of your best customers.
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    • Profile picture of the author Marhelper
      Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

      It isn't even that much trouble ... 5 minutes in Photoshop and I can have an image of a check in any amount from anyone you want. What's next, fake celebrity endorsements?

      "Buy from this guy, he is the answer to all your financial problems!!!"

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  • Profile picture of the author WillR
    Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill View Post

    If a sales pitch includes proof of income, it is most likely a lie.

    Why else would it be included?

    If there was a guaranteed wealth system, everyone would be wealthy.
    Ken,

    That's a bit harsh!

    It may actually be a legitimate proof of income... just not THEIR income

    One of my mates is a cop and has been for many years. He told me the easiest way to spot a liar is the person who tries to provide the most amount of proof to back up their story. The person telling the truth doesn't bother because they don't feel the need to. It's so true.

    The argument, "I use proof of earnings screenshots because they increase conversions", doesn't hold any weight for me either. If you have to lower yourself to those levels to get people to buy your product then you clearly are not very confident in your product to begin with - and there's probably a good reason for that.
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Barrs
      Originally Posted by WillR View Post

      One of my mates is a cop and has been for many years. He told me the easiest way to spot a liar is the person who tries to provide the most amount of proof to back up their story.
      I've heard this one also... it ties in with the fact that "too much detail" isn't believable. In those types of situations its the guy or girl who ads in tons of unnecessary detail who is probably making it up.

      Paul
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    • Profile picture of the author AdwordsMogul
      Originally Posted by WillR View Post

      ...
      The argument, "I use proof of earnings screenshots because they increase conversions", doesn't hold any weight for me either. If you have to lower yourself to those levels to get people to buy your product then you clearly are not very confident in your product to begin with - and there's probably a good reason for that.
      I disagree strongly. If it sells the product, and makes more money, without adverse effects then it should be done.

      The sales copy exists to sell. You have to do whatever it takes, as long as you are not lying, cheating, or breaking the law.
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      • Profile picture of the author WillR
        Originally Posted by AdwordsMogul View Post

        You have to do whatever it takes
        No you don't. Only desperate people call for desperate measures.

        Learn how to sell properly and that sort of thing is not needed.
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        • Profile picture of the author AdwordsMogul
          Originally Posted by WillR View Post

          No you don't.
          Why not?

          You cut out the part that says within the law, and moral rules.
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        • Profile picture of the author AdwordsMogul
          Originally Posted by WillR View Post

          No you don't. Only desperate people call for desperate measures.

          Learn how to sell properly and that sort of thing is not needed.
          Haha...

          What is selling properly? As defined by whom?

          As long as the check is real, it shouldn't be a problem.

          And even if the seller is desperate, it still doesn't make such a method 'wrong'.
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  • Profile picture of the author LegitIncomes
    Originally Posted by WillR View Post

    Is it just me or have others noticed a big increase in the amount of people now using images of cheques as their so-called income proof? I can see it's becoming VERY popular in the WSO forum.

    I'm sorry, but when I see a cheque scribbled with some random amount I give that about as much weight as I would the good old Clickbank screenshot. Yes, we all know how simple it is to have your friend write a cheque out in your name... and I love the way they always block out the information on the cheque that actually means anything... 'for security reasons' of course!

    I must say, these days I actually believe the claims of a product more so when I DON'T see any proof of income provided. The moment I see a screenshot or an image of a cheque I know it's more than likely a fabrication (who are we trying to kid, right?) and their sales pitch loses all credibility.

    What are your thoughts? Are the use of earnings screenshots the sign of a weak salesman?
    For my very first product, which was about 5-years ago, I used pictures of checks I had earned. However, in the time since then, with other products and with my most recent product, I don't use screen shots of checks, or earnings, etc... nothing.

    Why? Well, they are so easily faked that I don't think it matters if you include your legit earnings, when someone else can fake a check for any amount they like. What people want now is credibility. And if you have credibility they are going to believe what you say, screen shots or not.
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  • Profile picture of the author Cali16
    Originally Posted by WillR View Post

    I'm sorry, but when I see a cheque scribbled with some random amount I give that about a much weight as I would the good old Clickbank screenshot.
    I hear what you are saying, Will. In my observation, these checks are used most often in WSOs pertaining to offline marketing. But what I find most amusing, is when the check (for an offline service) is for some odd amount like $583.13. Seriously, why wouldn't the amount be a rounded number? Maybe it's just me, but those are the checks that make me the most suspicious.

    As far as a marketing technique - to me it's no different than screen shots of bank accounts, PayPal accounts, CB sales, or CPA earnings. Those can easily be faked, and many are. But, for people who don't realize that, they can be very convincing and that's why they are used so frequently. Plus, a lot of buyers demand "proof of earnings". :rolleyes:
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  • Profile picture of the author Qamar
    Seasoned marketers like most of us here may not like to see these screenshots, but many newcomers to IM loves to see them and that is what matters to the opportunist marketers.



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  • Profile picture of the author kindsvater
    One possibility is to have a CPA or other professional verify the income. Not a high chance they would risk their license over the issue.

    Of course there remains the question of what actually resulted in the income. But verifying the amount of income from ClickBank or someplace else is not difficult.

    .
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  • Profile picture of the author livitweb
    Totally agree... Fake cheques and fake click bank screen shots... Pretty sad really.
    Get in and doa real video of your actual takings is so much better (and so much harder to fake)...
    It goes to show there is a lot of shonky IM websters out there.
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    • Profile picture of the author fitz10
      Originally Posted by livitweb View Post

      Totally agree... Fake cheques and fake click bank screen shots... Pretty sad really.
      Get in and doa real video of your actual takings is so much better (and so much harder to fake)...
      It goes to show there is a lot of shonky IM websters out there.
      Harder? Maybe, but it's not impossible. I think the point here is that showing income shots is kind of pointless since they can be faked, exaggerated and just because I earned $XXXXXX doesn't mean you, the buyer, can earn $XXXXXX.
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  • Profile picture of the author John Alves
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    • Profile picture of the author WillR
      Originally Posted by John Alves View Post

      They are the sign of how to make money in the WSO forum. I have tried selling stuff in there with no screen shots, and no one bought anything. Most people don't buy anything without screen shots.
      I totally disagree. That's just a poor excuse on the sellers part.

      I have sold thousands of copies of a WSO that have no proof of earning screenshots at all, as have others - and there are tons of WSO's with proof of earnings screenshots that have sold little to no copies.

      If you can't sell a product without using some piffy screenshots then you are probably in the wrong industry. Besides, using screenshots are going to attract the type of customer who is a complete pain in the backside.
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      • Profile picture of the author John Alves
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        • Profile picture of the author WillR
          Originally Posted by John Alves View Post

          You are making money off your reputation. Whether you add a screen shot or not isn't going to matter.
          Once again, I disagree. That's just another excuse for the lazy sellers.

          I have seen loads of VERY successful WSO's from people who are relatively new to the forum.

          Originally Posted by John Alves View Post

          However, for someone new to this forum launching a WSO or someone that doesn't launch a lot of products, adding a screen shot is going to sell more than not having one.
          That's why we have the problem we have - because of that belief. Sellers think they need a screenshot to sell gear so naturally they have to go and fake one. Monkey see monkey do.

          It's just not the case.
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  • Profile picture of the author BloggingPro
    Think that is bad, I was in the WSO section just yesterday and came across a thread. The guy had placed what "appeared" to be six or seven envelopes from that said "Clickbank" on them.

    How F'ning easy would it be to fake that? My gut tells me anybody with a Word processor template could easily print the words Clickbank on those envelopes. LOL, but it was used to show payment from that company.

    The bottom line is that I don't think you can really "ban" income claims. If you do then everyone and their dog will have headlines like...

    I Make My Car Payment With This Method!

    For most people a car payment is between $300-$500 a month. Again, I said MOST people, not all, so don't quote me on that. Or they could say.

    I Make My Mortgage Payment Every Month Utilizing These TWO Simple Steps!

    Again, for most a mortgage payment is in the $1000-$1500 range. So essentially because you banned a "monetary" figure your still stuck with an income claim, even though they didn't state exactly how much they make with the method.

    You could get even more creative with it, but I'll save those headlines for my eventual WSO haha.

    You "ban" something and the bull**** will just flow around your ban. It's educating a new generation of marketers on ethical marketing that will limit the bull**** in the future--and sadly I do not see that happening anywhere, offline or online.
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  • Profile picture of the author kaper7
    When newbies first get into this business, they are told that one of the main component of a good copy is "proof" in the form of screenshots, mansions, or at the least, testimonials. They get the impression that their copy will not convert without these things.

    As far as I'm concerned, a lifetime guarantee is proof that the product is quality and that it works. That said however you must test to sell what coverts as long as you are telling and showing the truth.
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    • Profile picture of the author BloggingPro
      Originally Posted by kaper7 View Post

      When newbies first get into this business, they are told that one of the main component of a good copy is "proof" in the form of screenshots, mansions, or at the least, testimonials. They get the impression that their copy will not convert without these things.

      As far as I'm concerned, a lifetime guarantee is proof that the product is quality and that it works. That said however you must test to sell what coverts as long as you are telling and showing the truth.
      I don't know who the hell your listening to, but that's not what I learned when I was new. I learned from many a Warrior on this very forum, and I don't think one has ever preached that. Not one.
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  • Profile picture of the author BloggingPro
    I know I personally didn't include income claims in my one WSO I ran. This was because I didn't want the whole, "it's fake, no its not" argument to dominate my paid thread. Plus I write in a specific style that you can go back and look at the PDF as a reference.

    So I think it depends on your product. If your selling a "blue print" on how to make money online I'm sure an "earnings proof" means you'll make more sales.
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  • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
    Banned
    Whether it's a big scribbled fake check or an income screenshot, I ignore them. They aren't the kind of WSOs I buy anyway, but income proof will kill my interest in the WSO. I buy things that will help me in my business ... not methods that guarantee a certain income.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mr Precision
    My 2 cents-
    Screen shots of checks and fancy cars are about as stale as a two year old loaf of bread, but.... what would you replace them with? I assume that everyone agrees you need images, because a page of nothing but text would be more boring than a chess game with grandma. If your selling cars, then you put up pics of nice exotic vehicles. If your trying to push health and fitness products then you nab a picture of a babe in a swimsuit. I think pictures should be at least somewhat relevant to content or people start to get confused. With that said its only natural that checks, exotic cars, and money bags fill the gaps on these types of pages. Like I said before I'm not a fan of these screen shots, but the big question would be what do we replace them with? This is where you really need to think outside the box. How about a title "guru steals millions from unguarded internet bank vault!" and throw in a comical video with an old school face painted burglar sneaking into a bank vault while dodging banana peels. Appeal to peoples humor, capture their attention, and it will probably loosen up their tight grip on their wallets as well. If anyone is up for making the video, give me a shout lol.
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  • Profile picture of the author danieldroga
    It is definitely fabricated. It is not really fun to get sales with that kind of technique and people are getting smarter, you can't fool them around with that crap.
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  • Profile picture of the author PatrickP
    Ok so to keep the conversation going.

    If people are saying not to show a check NOT to show the cars you own and NOT to show the houses you own as proof of your success and income.

    What do you suggest for a WSOer to verify income?


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    • Profile picture of the author fitz10
      Originally Posted by Gordon Gekko View Post

      I've always said that I'm only impressed with a product when I see that a buyer of the product has gotten results. I know that can be easily faked as well. But if you can show me someone whose really made money with your system. Of course you'd have verify those claims as well, but still, that to me, holds more weight than everything else.
      Even this seems false though. Most people will not take any action on the WSOs they buy. They read or watch them for a few hours and then they're onto the next WSO. I've been shocked to see that there are people buying WSOs that never even bother to download them. :confused: That doesn't mean that the WSO creator didn't have success with the method, it just means that no one who bought the WSO took action. And those who do take action rarely come back to tell their story.

      Further, this proof can just as easily be faked as those check shots. Who's to say someone couldn't hire someone to write a post about how they're having mega success with this WSO and everyone better buy, buy, buy?
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    • Profile picture of the author BrianMcLeod
      Originally Posted by PatrickP View Post

      Ok so to keep the conversation going.

      If people are saying not to show a check NOT to show the cars you own and NOT to show the houses you own as proof of your success and income.

      What do you suggest for a WSOer to verify income?


      Case Studies

      In depth analysis of how someone just like your prospect had a problem, found your solution, and benefited from it.

      Demonstration & Illustration

      Break what you're selling apart and show people how it delivers the results so predictably, so reliably, and so easily.

      Use animations, presentations, screencapture videos and images. Watch how it's done on Direct Response TV. Live motion for what you can demonstrate, illustration for what you can't.

      Risk-Reversal

      Challenge people to put your claims to the test by completely reversing the risk onto yourself. This doesn't necessarily have to include instant refunds. There are other "losses" than directly financial ones that your prospect is worried about before he/she buys.

      Raise Your Prices

      Sounds crazy, right? Make more sales by raising the price?

      Yes. Better buyers buy better.

      Communicate The Value More Clearly

      At some point in an effective sales argument, the prospect stops arguing with you and starts arguing with himself... and justifying to himself why he should give himself permission to say yes. He is now emotionally "sold" but needs the logical ammunition to shoot down that nagging naysayer on his other shoulder.

      Tie Your Proof Directly To Your Claims

      Faster? Prove it. Easier? Prove it. Simple? Prove it.

      Proof doesn't need to be financial.. and there are myriad reasons why smart business people cannot and will not make income claims that have nothing whatsoever to do with their ability to produce blindingly persuasive ones.

      Ok, that's a good start, yes?

      This could be a useful discussion if we can all agree that the lowest common denominators with fraudulent claims are NOT the examples we should be using to talk about the way forward.

      Best,

      Brian
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      • Profile picture of the author PatrickP
        Originally Posted by BrianMcLeod View Post

        Case Studies

        In depth analysis of how someone just like your prospect had a problem, found your solution, and benefited from it.

        Demonstration & Illustration

        Break what you're selling apart and show people how it delivers the results so predictably, so reliably, and so easily.

        Use animations, presentations, screencapture videos and images. Watch how it's done on Direct Response TV. Live motion for what you can demonstrate, illustration for what you can't.

        Risk-Reversal

        Challenge people to put your claims to the test by completely reversing the risk onto yourself. This doesn't necessarily have to include instant refunds. There are other "losses" than directly financial ones that your prospect is worried about before he/she buys.

        Raise Your Prices

        Sounds crazy, right? Make more sales by raising the price?

        Yes. Better buyers buy better.

        Communicate The Value More Clearly

        At some point in an effective sales argument, the prospect stops arguing with you and starts arguing with himself... and justifying to himself why he should give himself permission to say yes. He is now emotionally "sold" but needs the logical ammunition to shoot down that nagging naysayer on his other shoulder.

        Tie Your Proof Directly To Your Claims

        Faster? Prove it. Easier? Prove it. Simple? Prove it.

        Proof doesn't need to be financial.. and there are myriad reasons why smart business people cannot and will not make income claims that have nothing whatsoever to do with their ability to produce blindingly persuasive ones.

        Ok, that's a good start, yes?

        This could be a useful discussion if we can all agree that the lowest common denominators with fraudulent claims are NOT the examples we should be using to talk about the way forward.

        Best,

        Brian

        Brian do you REALLY think that is a GOOD start????





        I think it is a GREAT GREAT start. Thank you so much for taking the time to post all that.

        Much appreciated!
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  • Profile picture of the author Frank Ayres
    i have to say the things that make me click off a sales page straight away are Sports Cars, Big Houses, Someone with a laptop on the beach, loads of dollar bills!
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    • Profile picture of the author AdwordsMogul
      Originally Posted by PatrickP View Post

      ...

      It reminds me how there are WSOs that tell you how to do a WSO lol It is like a new type of ponzi scam
      I don't get it - you can learn a lot from those WSOs. Many people who create a special offer would do much better if they studied some of those guides.

      Originally Posted by PatrickP View Post

      Ok so to keep the conversation going.

      If people are saying not to show a check NOT to show the cars you own and NOT to show the houses you own as proof of your success and income.

      What do you suggest for a WSOer to verify income?


      This I have to absolutely agree with.

      Originally Posted by Frank Ayres View Post

      i have to say the things that make me click off a sales page straight away are Sports Cars, Big Houses, Someone with a laptop on the beach, loads of dollar bills!
      Well, that's the idea. Repel those who won't buy, and attract magnetically those who will.

      These screenshots tend to work well with the biz opp market. I have to admit though, they are not my favourite market at all.
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  • Profile picture of the author PatrickP
    I REALLY want to know what laptop they use on the beach. You can read a kindle or nook easily in full sun but even the IPad with a screen it is impossible.

    Anyone know of ANY laptop or tablet you can actually see in full sun?
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    • Profile picture of the author DaveWildash
      A good refund policy should be a type of proof, but that's been available at Clickbank for ages yet it hasn't stopped the faked images and videos.

      Surely the best type of proof is the independently verifiable kind. If someone's making money online they must be getting good traffic. What's their Alexa rank? Google rank for relevant keywords? Backlink profile? PPC spend? Number of clicks on links in their Twitter account?

      Is there proof of their back story? When did they register domain names? If they've been testing something on a website and made a breakthrough it's possible to trace the changes as the marketer experimented. If they've invested in outsourcers they can direct prospects to job posts on freelancer sites.

      All these are available independently and there must be other ways the product vendor can show the prospect how to join the dots for greater credibility. If success leaves a trail, don't point to the fakable end result, point out the trail to the prospects as proof.
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    • Profile picture of the author wordydiva
      Originally Posted by PatrickP View Post

      Anyone know of ANY laptop or tablet you can actually see in full sun?
      I don't know of one, but I really I wish I did. It would be nice to work outside and get a bit more sun .

      As to the topic, I try to focus on the actual text content presented in a WSO or any sales pitch instead of gazing at the pretty pictures. The problem is (if it really is a problem) so many people just have to see what they believe is *proof*...
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  • Profile picture of the author theory expert
    Banned
    There is no real way to police a con man. Any social proof someone who really is making money can do, so, can the con man. Take out income claims cool. The con man can create great copy just like the legit person.

    Great product? No problem, the con man can get a product rehashed/revised, broken down, edited, and, proofread just like the legit person does for themself.

    If a con man is creative his social proof can match the legit persons. Granted it may alleviate the less prolific, but, the best of the crooks will bypass the smell test anytime, anyplace, anywhere.
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  • Profile picture of the author AdwordsMogul
    We are forgetting something. We are all marketers here. So we know how this stuff works. A regular person may need to be burnt a few times before they learn their lesson.

    On the other hand, someone who is new to marketing may think a screenshot of a check proves a product's validity.

    So again, if the check is real, and it helps increase sales, with no adverse effects, use it!
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  • Profile picture of the author Steve Diamond
    I think it's time to trot out a link to the grandaddy spoof of all overhyped make-money products - Buy My Stupid Ebook, Overly SEO d Title, Keywords Crammed like Make Money Online Make Money Online Make Money Online. It makes me laugh out loud every time.

    By the way, for those sellers who reside in the U.S., the FTC has some very specific guidelines for income claims. I don't believe I've ever seen a WSO that actually complies with them. You'll have to Google for details, but the essence is that if you make any income claims at all, you have to provide real statistics that say what percentage of all the people using your system have actually made the income you're claiming.

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  • Profile picture of the author JustFelix
    That picture you showed us look fake mainly because of all the people in the background.
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  • Profile picture of the author onegoodman
    I don't really bother wasting my time looking at these in the first place. Anyone can make one
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  • Profile picture of the author Patricia Sphar
    Willr, Mr. Precision and Brian all made excellent points. I agree: offer solid refunds, use humor in your screenshots, videos. etc., and follow infomercial formats on tv where you demonstrate/illustrate what your product does. People are getting smarter about IM and it really doesn't take long to develop an internet rep (good or bad). Mr. Adwordsmogul is an example of what NOT to do in marketing; all he does is make excuses for behaving like an unethical, greedy jerk. "No adverse effects"?--I can't believe he actually said that. No adverse effects for HIM, the heck with anyone else. Keep selling your crap to the newbies, Adwordsmogul; you wont get any business from me. If the gov't decides to regulate IM, it will be YOUR fault, dude.
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  • Profile picture of the author dagaul101
    It's unfortunate that especially in this economic situation folks are trying to get the edge anywhich way they can
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  • Profile picture of the author PhodM
    Okay let me chime in here..

    The reason that people feel compelled to use income proof is cause the over-heating WSO market constantly craves for the bigger shinier cheque!So the mentality would be; for them to buy my $7 product(or whatever price it is) they need to think it will make them more money than the President(which by the way,is quite possible with correct IM strategies)

    The bigger question I think is ;Why are people so gullible?!Like I know the majority of people who have been on the WF for at least 12 months(and actually READ threads,asked questions etc) should by now know that nothing comes easy..There is always a learning and DOING curve..but it seems the bulk of WSO buyers are trying to short circuit the process.

    Oh well
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  • Profile picture of the author savvybizbuilder
    Showing numbers always works in marketing. You can often see this in Multi-level marketing business. It is how they encourage people to join or purchase their product. I don't go with this kind of campaign.
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  • Profile picture of the author Marketing Ignite
    I think they are all tacky at best. Someone who is truly successful does not have to show paychecks in front of you. Ppl will talk about you as a consequence of how good you are. If you are the real deal, sales will come automatically..
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  • Profile picture of the author PatrickP
    what? There are literally thousands of millionaires out there no one knows about let alone talks about.

    The Millionaire Next Door book talks about this. I guarantee no one except my wife, not even my son, grandchildren nor siblings know I am a multimillionaire.
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  • Profile picture of the author colinph970
    my main interest is in what a WSO an provide in terms of new knowledge etc. Most of those WSO's with so called proof of income also have disclaimers saying that no guarantee of income is made and everybody may have a different experience.
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  • Profile picture of the author WebPen
    I gotta say that I thought this thread would be about videos.

    You can't look at a IM Clickbank product anymore without the guy "logging into his Clickbank account that he JUST created and turned on this magic software to start getting thousands a day!"
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  • Profile picture of the author RokDot
    I think it's weak. To be honest, that does make the sales thread or whatever lose credibility. When I see someone promoting with pictures like that one, it puts me off. Because most the the screenshots are too good to believe anyway.
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  • Profile picture of the author bagpuss0001
    Who uses cheques these days?
    Its all paypal or the such. Even most of the shops in the UK dont take cheques anymore... its all 'chip and pin'
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  • Profile picture of the author IMWinner
    The question that I always had in mind when I see pictures of the so-called successful person posting their cheque with such large amount is "why on earth would they want to post their money if they are truly earning that much?" A friend had told me that in the IM world, there are those who really tried to posts their earnings to say that they are earning that much and would offer their services to help for a corresponding amount. I mean, for what? Why offer their services for a specific rate if they can earn more than that in their IM business?
    As what he had told me, it is all business in here. Screenshots of cheques can be fabricated and that when newbies or people who are new to this business will feel amazed by the figures that this people are showing to them.
    It's like propaganda movement but using technology nowadays. Never believe what you see, you hear and you read unless you test it for yourself.
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    • Profile picture of the author dhpkc
      No I don't believe that screenshots of income - be it fake or real - are a sign of a weak salesman. Quite the opposite actually. A salesman is trying to get a sale and the truth is, those screenshots sell. I know I was affected by them my first couple times around.

      However, they absolutely drive me crazy now and I get just as turned off when I see one now as you do because as you pointed out there really is no way to prove that what they are showing you is a result of what they are trying to sell you or that it's even their account!

      The sad truth of the matter is that screenshots sell. Although generally only a newbie would be affected by them (as I was), they sell. I find them deceptive and certainly don't view them as "proof" of anything other than the seller targeting and trying to exploit newbies. I find it deceptive and often times flat out dishonest to use a sales tactic that would only work on (fool) a newbie.

      Screenshots aren't a sign of a weak salesman, but they are often a sign of a deceptive salesman.
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