Article Syndication Question

173 replies
Does Google penalise for syndicating articles across multiple sources?

I'm reading through xfactors guide, and noticed he only uses ezine. If I was to submit the articles to a couple of web 2.0 directories and article sites would this have any negative effect on my SERP when gaining a backlink from the article?
#article #question #syndication
  • Profile picture of the author Psst
    Banned
    1. xfactor's guide is 2 or 3 years old. (correct me if I'm wrong)

    2. If you think that web 2.0 sites like hubpages work the same as article directories, then I say that is a misunderstanding.

    3. no negative effect at all but a little positive effect IMO

    4. elaborate more on your question.
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    • Profile picture of the author JamesJeffery
      Originally Posted by Psst View Post

      1. xfactor's guide is 2 or 3 years old. (correct me if I'm wrong)

      2. If you think that web 2.0 sites like hubpages work the same as article directories, then I say that is a misunderstanding.

      3. no negative effect at all but a little positive effect IMO

      4. elaborate more on your question.
      1. Still works very well though. There are threads all over the net, even recent ones, where people are reporting success.

      2. I know the difference between them both. But an article can be submitted to a Web 2.0 site such as blogger, wordpress, squidoo the same as it can to Articlebase, eZine etc. Unless you thought I mean bookmarking and such like when I said Web 2.0.

      3. Thanks for the the opinion

      4. I'm writing niche related articles that contain a backlink to my current site. The aim is to submit quality content, as well as gaining a backlink. Currently only submitting to eZine but if I can squeeze some extra juice per article then thats a bonus all around.

      The question is would submitting the same articles to a handful of places over the web (other article directories and some web 2.0 sites) have any negative impact on my site when gaining a backlink. Would Google see this as an attempt to gain backlinks, or see it as syndicating articles around the web?

      I do have SENuke lifetime license, but I have no intention of using that for this project.
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  • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
    Banned
    Originally Posted by JamesJeffery View Post

    Does Google penalise for syndicating articles across multiple sources?
    No.

    Originally Posted by JamesJeffery View Post

    I'm reading through xfactors guide, and noticed he only uses ezine.
    I haven't read it. But so do I (more or less - I admit I sometimes submit to either GoArticles or ArticleBase as well). For a year before that I submitted regularly to about 8 directories.

    The reason I'm submitting to directories at all is so that people will then syndicate my articles from directories ("from EZA", I should say) to their own websites, and I'll get more widespread syndication. One is hardly using EZA (or any other directory) for its own backlinks, and least of all for its own traffic. (One wants traffic coming to one's own site, for all the obvious reasons, rather than going to an article directory where one loses most of it).

    Originally Posted by JamesJeffery View Post

    If I was to submit the articles to a couple of web 2.0 directories and article sites ...
    I don't know what you mean by "web 2.0 directories".

    Some "article sites" will not accept syndicated articles, but those are not in any sense of the words "article directories". (InfoBarrel is one example. It's never been intended to be an article directory at all, and it isn't one. But whatever one leans by "article sites" I think it's pretty clearly one of those? It's a site to which one can submit articles, after all).

    And different people mean different things by "article sites". Some people even consider Squidoo and places like that to be "article sites" although they're obviously not "article directories" by any stretch of the imagination.

    An "article directory" is a depository of content freely available for syndication by people searching for content (webmasters and ezine compilers in the appropriate niche) - no more and no less.

    It's a way of propagating your work (via people who use the article directory to find publishable content) to attract targeted traffic to your site.

    It isn't there for authors to use it for its own backlinks (those backlinks are non-context-relevant, PR-0 backlinks of negligible value) or its own potential-customer traffic.

    When a potential customer finds one of our articles by putting one of its keywords into a search engine, the last thing article marketers want them finding is a directory copy. We want potential customer traffic coming to our own sites, not going to an article directory.

    Those are not the people we're submitting our articles there to attract.

    "I have a 25% click through rate from this article directory" is just another way of saying "I lose 75% of my traffic at this article directory".

    It's a mistake to try to use an article directory as a traffic-source in its own right, anyway: they just don't rank well enough for that, as even their owners are openly admitting. Of course, contrary to the impression given in some forum discussions of article marketing (typically they're actually only about article directory marketing in the sense of "trying to use article directories for their own traffic and/or their own backlinks"), that was clearly never what they were there for, in the first place.

    Originally Posted by JamesJeffery View Post

    ... would this have any negative effect on my SERP when gaining a backlink from the article?
    Clearly not: when articles are syndicated across different sites, many of the copies (often not all of them, as is claimed) will be indexed only in Google's supplemental index rather than its main index, which doesn't affect the value of backlinks contained in its resource-box at all.

    I've never seen it suggested by anyone, regardless of their views and experiences of article marketing, that the SERP's position of a site linked to in a syndicated article could suffer any negative effect "because the article had been syndicated". That would be both bizarre and quite unaccountable (and would clearly make people like Reuters and Associated Press look very silly indeed). Indeed, the forum's full of successful, professional article marketers whose businesses have been built up by getting their articles as widely syndicated as possible.
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    • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
      Another reason for wide syndication across a variety of sites is the nature of search engines and searchers themselves.

      Here's a simplified example...

      I'm in the USA, Alexa is in the UK. We both syndicate the same article to our sites, either from a directory like EZA or through other private arrangements.

      If all else is equal (admittedly a stretch), a searcher in the USA is more likely to see the copy on my site. While a searcher in the UK would most likely find the copy on Alexa's.

      Whoever the original author is (it doesn't matter for this example), they benefit from the placement on our sites due to a) our own seo efforts, b) our built-up audience and c) our tacit endorsement simply due to the fact that we chose to place the article on our sites.

      Scale that up, and you start to see the power...
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  • Profile picture of the author JamesJeffery
    But xfactor (John) states he only uses a handful of article directories and that he uses them for syndication. He states his sites rank on page 1 (sometimes 2 depending on the competition). These ranks are from his submissions and syndication of others. So the backlinks on the syndication must have some sort of effect.

    Google neither say yes, or no, as to whether syndication adds or negates to a sites SERP.

    This is why I asked. I was looking for some answers from people who have had success (or the opposite) from syndication relating to backlinking and SERP.
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    • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
      Banned
      Originally Posted by JamesJeffery View Post

      But xfactor (John) states he only uses a handful of article directories and that he uses them for syndication. He states his sites rank on page 1 (sometimes 2 depending on the competition). These ranks are from his submissions and syndication of others.
      All of that is true for myself, too (and for many others here, I'm sure).

      Originally Posted by JamesJeffery View Post

      So the backlinks on the syndication must have some sort of effect.
      Clearly they have a very beneficial effect. That's part of how article marketing works, and is why so many of us here are using article syndication as the way we make our livings and build our businesses.

      (You originally asked only whether they had any negative effect, and the answer to that is "no".)

      Originally Posted by JamesJeffery View Post

      I was looking for some answers from people who have had success
      Well, it appears that you have a couple, so far.

      There are a few hundred other threads on this subject where you can read of many others.
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  • Profile picture of the author warriorkay
    Originally Posted by JamesJeffery View Post

    Does Google penalise for syndicating articles across multiple sources?
    No, Google does not penalize for syndicating articles across
    multiple sources. Google only FILTERS OUT the duplicates. In
    other words, if you submit the SAME article to multiple sources,
    Google will only index and present (when people search) a few
    copies and will FILTER out the rest of them.

    This means that if you had the intention of getting the backlink
    value from each of the, say 100 submissions you did, you will
    only end up with 1 or FEW backlinks that would be counted
    by Google.

    Solution? "Right" Article Spinning, !

    Some of the things to accomplish with "Right" article spinning:

    • You will be able to get MORE search engine traffic
    • You will be able to get MORE backlinks counted by Google
    • You will be able to get MORE search engine rankings for MORE keywords

    Originally Posted by JamesJeffery View Post

    I'm reading through xfactors guide, and noticed he only uses ezine.
    I have also read his guide. Using only EzineArticles at the time
    was enough, but not anymore. Things have changed. I should know.
    I have tons of articles published in EzineArticles as well as tons
    published in many THOUSANDS of article directories, web 2.0 sites,
    press release sites, etc. So, I know... from DOING both just
    submitting to EzineArticles and submitting spun versions to tons
    of other places.

    Originally Posted by JamesJeffery View Post

    If I was to submit the articles to a couple of web 2.0 directories and article sites would this have any negative effect on my SERP when gaining a backlink from the article?
    Negative effect? No, because there's no penalty. But like I
    said above, the duplicates will be FILTERED out and the backlinks
    you hoped to gain from the mass submission will NOT be,

    Kingsley

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    • Profile picture of the author aaronngoh
      I like the discussion here and really want to know what is the latest effect of syndication of articles over the internet.

      People are still teaching the same thing today. Just wonder if they have done it themselves.

      Love to hear from the practitioner here.
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      • Profile picture of the author warriorkay
        Originally Posted by aaronngoh View Post

        I like the discussion here and really want to know what is the latest effect of syndication of articles over the internet.

        People are still teaching the same thing today. Just wonder if they have done it themselves.

        Love to hear from the practitioner here.
        Every single day my staffs submit incredibly unique spun articles
        to TONS of sites for my sites and my company's clients' sites to
        rank them highly in the search engines... and every single day we
        check and see the sites CLIMBING IN RANKINGS for their keywords...

        We don't get these same results from "syndicating" the SAME
        article to multiple websites!!!

        And by the way, I personally own HUNDREDS of article directories
        and my company manages HUNDREDS MORE for my clients, so I
        have done and continually do tons and tons of tests almost daily...

        Go figure,

        Kingsley

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    • Profile picture of the author tpw
      Originally Posted by warriorkay View Post

      No, Google does not penalize for syndicating articles across multiple sources. Google only FILTERS OUT the duplicates. In other words, if you submit the SAME article to multiple sources, Google will only index and present (when people search) a few copies and will FILTER out the rest of them.

      This means that if you had the intention of getting the backlink value from each of the, say 100 submissions you did, you will only end up with 1 or FEW backlinks that would be counted by Google.

      This is close to accurate.

      Google will still index all the copies of the article they find, so long as they find a link to the copy of the article, on a page that they considered worthy of counting.

      The Duplicate Content Filter does not affect whether an article will be indexed or not. It only affects whether they will show more than one copy of the article on a single page in their SERPs -- they hope...

      I have in fact seen multiple copies of a particular article on the same page in Google, but it is rare, so their dupe content filter mostly works, just not always 100%.

      Spinning is one potential solution, but certainly not the only one.

      Spinning has the same issues with it that duplicate syndicated articles have, in fact.

      1. If you spin an article and put it on an article directory, the article directory has been designed to syndicate that content. If the article directory successfully syndicates the content, then the article directory has defeated the purpose of spinning the article, because now there will be more than one copy of the article in circulation.

      2. Google only counts links from pages that already have link popularity inside of Google's algorithm (pages that have their own inbound links as counted by Google). Regardless of whether the article is unique or duplicated, the page where the article is posted will only pass Google value to your website, IF the page where the article is posted has Google value to pass on.

      Most articles have the potential, whether unique or syndicated, to gain link popularity value where they are posted, in order to be counted by Google as a valid link to your website. Although most articles, unique and syndicated, have the potential to gain recognition from Google's algorithm as being a quality link, most copies of the article will never achieve that.

      With spun content, if you manually spin the content, you can retain some control over the value of the spun output. If you are lazy about how you spin or let a computer make the decisions for you, your spun articles could come out looking like crap.

      If you syndicate the same article across a multitude of websites, you retain full control over the one thing that will determine whether real people consider your article worth linking to on that website -- the quality of its message.

      The factor that determines whether people will link to your article or not, is whether people consider your article worthy of sharing with others.

      This can be achieved with spun articles AND syndicated articles.

      Depending on how committed your are to maintaining the quality of your article's message will determine how many of your spun articles come out the other side with enough quality built-in to ensure that people will link to it or not.

      And the same applies to your syndicated content. So long as you remain committed to giving people good quality content, others will be more inclined to link and share your articles with others.

      This brings us back full circle.

      Spun content and duplicated syndicated content both offer the same potential, so long as people are willing to link to the content, from pages that Google's algorithm has determined to be trustworthy sources of links.

      Whether you choose spun or syndicated, choose to create articles that people will consider useful to them and valuable to others, and you will win.

      Choose the opposite of quality, and you will lose.
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      • Profile picture of the author warriorkay
        Thanks for addressing the issues professionally. I like it when
        these threads work this way, instead of "childish" arguments just
        for the sake of it.

        I will however be happier if we provide more EMPIRICAL data,
        based on EXPERIENCE when talking about these issues,

        Originally Posted by tpw View Post

        This is close to accurate.

        Google will still index all the copies of the article they find, so long as they find a link to the copy of the article, on a page that they considered worthy of counting.

        The Duplicate Content Filter does not affect whether an article will be indexed or not. It only affects whether they will show more than one copy of the article on a single page in their SERPs -- they hope...

        I have in fact seen multiple copies of a particular article on the same page in Google, but it is rare, so their dupe content filter mostly works, just not always 100%.
        I said "index AND present (when people search)", not just
        index. So, my initial statement is accurate, not close to accurate,

        More so, I don't think you are 100% correct on saying Google's
        Duplicate content filter will NOT affect whether an article will
        be indexed or not. My TESTS have in fact showed that lots of
        times duplicate content doesn't even get indexed. I mean - why
        would Google index hundreds or thousands of EXACT DUPLICATES?!

        And if Google does index hundreds or thousands of duplicates,
        why don't they count the backlinks from all the duplicates?!

        Originally Posted by tpw View Post

        Spinning is one potential solution, but certainly not the only one.
        Glad to hear it's one solution,


        Originally Posted by tpw View Post

        Spinning has the same issues with it that duplicate syndicated articles have, in fact.

        1. If you spin an article and put it on an article directory, the article directory has been designed to syndicate that content. If the article directory successfully syndicates the content, then the article directory has defeated the purpose of spinning the article, because now there will be more than one copy of the article in circulation.
        And that's IF...

        What IF the articles don't get syndicated? Don't you STILL get
        the value of that particular backlink? Even if it gets syndicated,
        you still get the value of that particular backlink and a few of
        others that get submitted elsewhere.

        More so, using a service like Unique Article Wizard to submit
        your articles to the article directories/blogs prevents this problem.
        It allows webmasters to spin and create a unique version, from
        the articles they want to syndicate, thereby getting a
        unique version to use on their sites.

        But that aside, like I will elaborate below, professional article
        spinners DON'T WAIT for their articles to be syndicated by
        webmasters before they get the results they want! They
        achieve the results from the initial submissions themselves.


        Originally Posted by tpw View Post

        2. Google only counts links from pages that already have link popularity inside of Google's algorithm (pages that have their own inbound links as counted by Google). Regardless of whether the article is unique or duplicated, the page where the article is posted will only pass Google value to your website, IF the page where the article is posted has Google value to pass on.
        Not entirely correct, from my experience. I have had backlinks
        from ZERO link popular pages being counted by Google, mostly
        because the content is unique! Remember I said I have hundreds
        of directories and I test these things. Apart from just testing with
        my own directories and site, I also test by submitting to other
        directories, web 2.0 sites, press release sites, etc.

        Originally Posted by tpw View Post

        Most articles have the potential, whether unique or syndicated, to gain link popularity value where they are posted, in order to be counted by Google as a valid link to your website.
        Yes, if they get indexed in the first place! That's the issue!

        Originally Posted by tpw View Post

        With spun content, if you manually spin the content, you can retain some control over the value of the spun output. If you are lazy about how you spin or let a computer make the decisions for you, your spun articles could come out looking like crap.
        I agree, 99% and that's the MAIN method of article spinning
        I recommend and use! But the truth also remains that there are
        people spinning crap and still getting the results they want. I
        don't spin crap because I suspect Google will get good enough
        in the future (if they haven't got that good yet) to be able to
        know crap articles from quality articles. So, I am doing article
        spinning the "right" way to get ready for the future that might
        come (or is already here),

        Originally Posted by tpw View Post

        If you syndicate the same article across a multitude of websites, you retain full control over the one thing that will determine whether real people consider your article worth linking to on that website -- the quality of its message.
        There are MILLIONS of articles, I think, being syndicated
        almost daily nowadays... I prefer to concentrate on the LINK
        value of such syndication (submissions), rather than wait
        for that ONE super article that will do it for me. That's why
        I use "right" article spinning to create very unique and
        readable articles that when submitted to thousands of sites
        will give me MORE links value than submitting the exact
        same versions to same thousands of sites.

        Originally Posted by tpw View Post

        The factor that determines whether people will link to your article or not, is whether people consider your article worthy of sharing with others.

        This can be achieved with spun articles AND syndicated articles.
        Not really. People who do article spinning, like I have explained,
        don't WAIT to have others link to their articles before they can
        get the link love. They take the process into their own hands and
        get the links love they want by submitting very unique versions
        to tons and tons of places.

        Originally Posted by tpw View Post

        Depending on how committed your article to maintaining the quality of your article's message will determine how many of your spun articles come out the other side with enough quality built-in to ensure that people will link to it or not.

        And the same applies to your syndicated content. So long as you remain committed to giving people good quality content, others will be more inclined to link and share your articles with others.
        I agree 100%,

        Originally Posted by tpw View Post

        This brings us back full circle.

        Spun content and duplicated syndicated content both offer the same potential, so long as people are willing to link to the content, from pages that Google's algorithm has determined to be trustworthy sources of links.

        Whether you choose spun or syndicated, choose to create articles that people will consider useful to them and valuable to others, and you will win.

        Choose the opposite of quality, and you will lose.
        Sorry, I don't agree that duplicated syndicated content offers
        the SAME potential as spun content because unlike syndicated
        duplicate content, you don't need people to be willing to
        link to your spun content to get the BACKLINK VALUE that you
        want to get.

        In other words, with submitting (or syndicating, ) uniquely
        spun content to thousands of places, I CONTROL what results
        I get. I don't have to wait (and hope) that someone would
        find my super duper article and deem it valuable enough to be
        linked to. I have already achieved the BACKLINKING results I
        wanted,

        There... almost an hour gone just replying to this. That's why
        I stay away from such threads and rather use the time to get
        more quality spun articles out there... and get more backlinks
        juice to my sites (and clients' sites)... and make more money,

        Lastly, no one ever wins these debates. What I'd say is for
        people to TEST things out themselves and see what RESULTS
        they get, then they will have EMPIRICAL data to rely on, rather
        than just want I or anyone else says!


        Empirical: Derived from experiment and observation rather than theory

        Kingsley

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        • Profile picture of the author drmani
          Originally Posted by warriorkay View Post

          .... What I'd say is for
          people to TEST things out themselves and see what RESULTS
          they get, then they will have EMPIRICAL data to rely on, rather
          than just want I or anyone else says!


          Empirical: Derived from experiment and observation rather than theory

          Kingsley
          THIS = GOLD!

          All success
          Dr.Mani
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          • Profile picture of the author drmani
            What I hope to PROVE with this challenge is not that
            syndicating 100% duplicate articles don't work. Of course
            they work. But they don't work as MUCH as syndicating
            uniquely spun high quality articles, ESPECIALLY for SEO
            purposes. Plain and simple!

            Again, rather than engage in these unending debates and
            THEORITIZING, let's get it on and REALLY DO THIS!

            Kingsley, I'm a wee bit confused about this "challenge" - which
            I considered with curiosity, as I'd be interested in taking
            part

            I *think* (might be completely wrong, though) that there's a
            lot of discussion at cross-purposes going on here.

            Both sides seem to agree that 100% duplicate syndication works
            and that correctly spun articles provide SEO value... even if
            everyone doesn't agree to use both, or even have never tried
            other versions than what they regularly do.

            BUT...

            The REAL argument of the pro-syndication group is that they
            rely on syndicated articles THEMSELVES for traffic - and NOT
            upon the SEO boost that 'spinners' count on... so the 'challenge'
            won't answer that question/debate completely or conclusively.

            While widely distributing (and getting indexed) correctly spun
            articles across thousands of sites/directories will give your
            primary money-site an SEO boost, your traffic will essentially
            be coming from the SERPs listing that's consequent on this
            backlinking - and not mainly from the spun versions directly
            (Or is that your contention?)

            So what do we measure? SERP ranking? Article traffic? And
            if the latter, it opens another can of worms - about quality
            of that traffic in delivering the value you seek.

            Far simpler to stick with the earlier FANTASTIC advice you
            gave - TEST IT!

            All success
            Dr.Mani
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            • Profile picture of the author warriorkay
              Originally Posted by drmani View Post

              Kingsley, I'm a wee bit confused about this "challenge" - which
              I considered with curiosity, as I'd be interested in taking
              part

              I *think* (might be completely wrong, though) that there's a
              lot of discussion at cross-purposes going on here.
              There ALWAYS is - with one part only reading what it wants
              to read and ignoring the rest and the other part doing same.
              It's just human nature,

              Originally Posted by drmani View Post

              Both sides seem to agree that 100% duplicate syndication works
              and that correctly spun articles provide SEO value... even if
              everyone doesn't agree to use both, or even have never tried
              other versions than what they regularly do.
              Sadly no. If you go through the many threads in here about this
              issue you will see how the "article spinning haters" just throw
              mud on the concept completely. What's wrong is wrong article
              spinning, not the concept itself.

              Like I have been saying - if 100% duplicate syndication works
              best for you, go ahead and do it... don't condemn others who
              submit correctly spun articles for SEO value!



              Originally Posted by drmani View Post

              BUT...

              The REAL argument of the pro-syndication group is that they
              rely on syndicated articles THEMSELVES for traffic - and NOT
              upon the SEO boost that 'spinners' count on... so the 'challenge'
              won't answer that question/debate completely or conclusively.
              Good on them. What I am saying is they shouldn't condemn
              the concept of article spinning
              . If they are condemning the
              "wrong" article spinning methods of spinning gibberish and
              polluting the web with them, then it's understandable. But no,
              they are condemning article spinning in it's entirety and saying
              it's a waste of time. How wrong!


              Originally Posted by drmani View Post

              While widely distributing (and getting indexed) correctly spun
              articles across thousands of sites/directories will give your
              primary money-site an SEO boost, your traffic will essentially
              be coming from the SERPs listing that's consequent on this
              backlinking
              - and not mainly from the spun versions directly
              (Or is that your contention?)
              ABSOLUTELY. That's my contention and that's mainly WHY
              I do article spinning, especially "right" article spinning.

              Originally Posted by drmani View Post

              So what do we measure? SERP ranking? Article traffic? And
              if the latter, it opens another can of worms - about quality
              of that traffic in delivering the value you seek.
              Yes, we measure SERP ranking for the keywords and domain,
              being targeted in the submission process ... to show that
              there's INDEED SEO value from submitting spun articles than
              from submitting 100% duplicate articles across the web!


              Originally Posted by drmani View Post

              Far simpler to stick with the earlier FANTASTIC advice you
              gave - TEST IT!

              All success
              Dr.Mani
              Of course. That's it. I TEST daily. And I have been TESTING
              for years... from the early days of only submitting 100% duplicate
              content, to today. So, I know, from my tests, not from theory!

              Again, true - everyone should also TEST, rather than come
              in here to give advice based on theory!



              Kingsley

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      • Profile picture of the author mattlaclear
        Originally Posted by tpw View Post

        Whether you choose spun or syndicated, choose to create articles that people will consider useful to them and valuable to others, and you will win.

        Choose the opposite of quality, and you will lose.
        That is an interesting theory you have there. So the auto spun plr articles I submit to my blog network all need to be useful to others before they are able to generate any link juice?

        Please explain our success then. Most likely I misunderstood your point. If so you have my apologies.
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        • Profile picture of the author warriorkay
          Originally Posted by mattlaclear View Post

          That is an interesting theory you have there. So the auto spun plr articles I submit to my blog network all need to be useful to others before they are able to generate any link juice?

          Please explain our success then. Most likely I misunderstood your point. If so you have my apologies.
          While I don't agree with your method of article spinning, it
          gives you RESULTS, hence buttressing the aspect that spun
          unique articles work and give SEO benefits!

          That's the point that many just don't want to accept!

          And the fact that you submit your spun articles to YOUR
          network of blogs and mainly to generate link juice, it's your
          right to do what you want to do... to YOUR blogs. Why
          should anyone crucify you for that?!

          As for me (and my house, ), I try to spend the time and
          effort, to do "right" article spinning, since I know, firsthand,
          the SEO benefits I can get from it.

          Kingsley

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        • Profile picture of the author Shannon Herod
          Originally Posted by mattlaclear View Post

          That is an interesting theory you have there. So the auto spun plr articles I submit to my blog network all need to be useful to others before they are able to generate any link juice?
          Hey Matt,

          Auto-spun crap articles will still provide link juice "if" they get indexed. However, the vast majority of those crap articles will land in the supplemental index.

          From what I have found these links still count as links, however, their weight is noticeably diminished. Therefore it takes a lot more articles to see any results.

          You see, in the latest update (slap) I believe Google implemented a algorithm that weights what it believes to be a spun article less than what it believes to be well written articles.

          Not to mention, I believe the net is a place to add value, not just litter it with crap for your own gain. I have been guilty of this to so I am not judging, i am just saying.

          Shannon
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          • Profile picture of the author mattlaclear
            Originally Posted by Shannon Herod View Post

            Hey Matt,

            Auto-spun crap articles will still provide link juice "if" they get indexed. However, the vast majority of those crap articles will land in the supplemental index.

            From what I have found these links still count as links, however, their weight is noticeably diminished. Therefore it takes a lot more articles to see any results.

            You see, in the latest update (slap) I believe Google implemented a algorithm that weights what it believes to be a spun article less than what it believes to be well written articles.

            Not to mention, I believe the net is a place to add value, not just litter it with crap for your own gain. I have been guilty of this to so I am not judging, i am just saying.

            Shannon
            I love it when someone explains my business to me as to what works and what doesn't. We even have a service where we guarantee all 5,000 article links in the package will be indexed by Google. We would not be able to offer anything like that if our article links were not being indexed at high rates.

            But please go ahead and explain my business to me some more. I personally think "right spun" articles are the biggest rip off on the net. They never read right. Ever. I have blown over $10k this year alone buying spinners that were supposedly good enough to read like real articles. I have never been happy with what I received.

            But I digress.

            So what is it to anyone if I want to put autospun plr content on my own blog network sites?

            Edit: Okay maybe spinner vendors aren't the biggest ripoff on the net. Apologies for being a bit over dramatic there. But I dislike being lectured from article spinners letting me know my autospun content is inferior to their own.

            You can't really think you can take both sides of the argument can you?

            Either you are for quality or you are for quantity. You can't be for both.
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[4566585].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author Shannon Herod
              Originally Posted by mattlaclear View Post

              I have blown over $10k this year alone buying spinners that were supposedly good enough to read like real articles. I have never been happy with what I received.
              Spinners will never produce results that read like real articles.

              Humans imputing the variations inside those spinners will.

              Shannon
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            • Profile picture of the author drmani
              Originally Posted by mattlaclear View Post

              So what is it to anyone if I want to put autospun plr content on my own blog network sites?
              Great question.

              One everybody who is presuming to advise others about their
              business needs to ask themselves - and consider the answer to
              - before continuing!

              Long ago, I asked Chris Knight (of Ezine Articles) if he would
              promote my ebook to his list, including EA members.

              He asked if the ebook taught "junk article marketing" - and I
              referred him to a section of it, which pertains to this part
              of our discussion here. I'll excerpt it for reference (oh, and
              btw, he did endorse my ebook to his list after seeing it!):


              Your Content Philosophy

              Maybe this sounds like hocus-pocus, but I believe it is critical to
              your success or failure as an information marketer. So please bear
              with me and read this section carefully.

              There's a lot of confusion and controversy about fair, ethical use of
              articles and other forms of content on the Internet. They apply
              particularly to content that you haven't created yourself.

              Broadly, in content marketing (just as in life itself) there are two
              categories of people:

              • those who exploit a situation, and
              • those who make the world a better place.

              Now, I'm not getting into a debate or discourse on which is better,
              holier, or more 'right'. Which path you opt to tread is entirely your
              choice, and might depend upon factors I don't know and cannot
              imagine. Just understand that there are two distinct paths.

              Those who exploit the prevailing content-marketing scenario are
              focused on one thing, and that alone. They want to obtain a high
              ranking on search engines for competitive keywords (ones that offer
              multiple quick ways to make money from visitors) and drive floods
              of traffic to their sites... never mind how they do it.

              And there are many 'black hat' tactics to achieve this end . They can
              use scripts and software, ingeniously mixed together, to throw up
              'junk content sites' that often make very little sense, purposely look
              ugly or repulsive, and are geared to doing one thing well: getting
              visitors to click on money-spinning links that are placed on these
              websites.

              I have little experience with this style of content marketing, but I
              know it is profitable. During the heyday of Google Adsense - a
              contextual advertising program launched by the search engine
              giant, Google.com - many folks were banking five-figure checks
              every month, based on this kind of strategy.

              Here's the downside: these sites may not last for long in search
              engines. When Google realized that the black-hat techniques being
              used by some content publishers were adversely affecting the
              experience their service was delivering to the search users, they
              cracked down heavily on the 'junk content' sites. Big checks
              magically vaporized into thin air.

              The owners of this type of content sites will always be scrambling
              to stay ahead of the game. If you decide to follow them, you
              shouldn't mind if you too lose your cash-generating high-traffic
              magnets overnight. Just keep building some more. And then more.

              If this sounds like working for money, you're right. It is. Don't
              confuse this with a real 'infopreneur business'.

              Sure, you'll make money - maybe a lot of it. But you don't have a
              sustained process for acquiring clients, making repeat sales to
              them, building a list, and achieving steady growth across a longer
              time frame. That approach, by the way, is at the core of a
              successful, sustainable infopreneur business.

              The other category of people is the ones who want to 'make the
              Internet a better place'. They do this by adding valuable content to
              the Web.

              While this is a harder path to tread, in the longer term it is more
              sustainable and can be scaled up over time. There's some hard
              work involved while things get going, but after a while it can be
              organized to be 'set-and-forget' simple.

              There are some content sites I built in 1999, and haven't touched
              since then except for renewing the domain names. Even today,
              these sites get hundreds or even thousands of visitors every month;
              and they bring in a few hundred dollars in profit each month,
              hands-free.

              That's the difference. With this strategy, in the end the result is a
              high-quality, content-rich website. This site is a useful online
              resource many people visit over and over again, because it truly
              adds value to their lives in some way. It's a place people tell other
              people to go for quality information and support. It's a portal that
              search engines will find and reward, sooner or later. It's even a
              website that could become an authority on the niche topic around
              which it is built.

              This kind of site will easily be able to create a sense of online
              community among users, nurture a loyal following and have staying
              power. And this can become the kernel for a business built around
              that theme.

              Which model do you want to follow?

              As I said before, it's your choice to make. Both are lucrative
              models. Both need some work. They have some significant
              operational and strategic differences. Most important, they are
              philosophically distinct.

              Your choice of one over the other is a reflection of your own
              attitude and approach towards your online business. Just make
              sure you're clear about which kind you're going after, since much of
              what you'll do in the weeks ahead will be determined by this
              decision.
              All success
              Dr.Mani
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            • Profile picture of the author Shannon Herod
              Originally Posted by mattlaclear View Post

              I love it when someone explains my business to me as to what works and what doesn't. We even have a service where we guarantee all 5,000 article links in the package will be indexed by Google. We would not be able to offer anything like that if our article links were not being indexed at high rates.

              But please go ahead and explain my business to me some more. I personally think "right spun" articles are the biggest rip off on the net. They never read right. Ever. I have blown over $10k this year alone buying spinners that were supposedly good enough to read like real articles. I have never been happy with what I received.

              But I digress.

              So what is it to anyone if I want to put autospun plr content on my own blog network sites?

              Edit: Okay maybe spinner vendors aren't the biggest ripoff on the net. Apologies for being a bit over dramatic there. But I dislike being lectured from article spinners letting me know my autospun content is inferior to their own.

              You can't really think you can take both sides of the argument can you?

              Either you are for quality or you are for quantity. You can't be for both.
              I actually did not say your business does not work. What I said was it takes more of your auto spun articles to produce the same result. [edit: this is based on my testing. I use to submit auto spun crap articles. However I stopped for two reasons... 1. I was submitting them to other peoples sites. 2. I found it was not working as well any more.] So, were you need 5000 links I can see results with less.

              Also, you see higher indexing rates because you are submitting to your own network. That allows you to make sure you keep the spiders coming.

              I never said your business does not work. I believe it does. However, I also believe that if you are submitting content to other peoples sites it needs to be quality content and not garbage.

              You do not need to worry about that because you are submitting to your own site. However I do not believe your method is not a long term method. Google has employees that are way smarter than me and I will go out on a limb and say they are smarter than 99% of the people in this forum.

              So, eventually crap content will not work at all and all the links you built will become useless.

              Originally Posted by mattlaclear View Post

              You can't really think you can take both sides of the argument can you?

              Either you are for quality or you are for quantity. You can't be for both.
              Actually I can and I do. My writer spend up to 10 hours per day per article to make sure I can have the best of both worlds.


              Shannon
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              • Profile picture of the author drmani
                Originally Posted by Shannon Herod View Post

                So, eventually crap content will not work at all and all the links you built will become useless.

                Shannon
                And for someone following that strategy, it's an acceptable risk, Shannon.

                Once that's pointed out clearly, one's duty is done. Too many debaters on
                the forum try and STEER people away from a method based on ONLY their
                own experience with an alternative. That's where the acrimony begins

                All success
                Dr.Mani
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              • Profile picture of the author mattlaclear
                Originally Posted by Shannon Herod View Post

                Google has employees that are way smarter than me and I will go out on a limb and say they are smarter than 99% of the people in this forum.

                So, eventually crap content will not work at all and all the links you built will become useless.

                Shannon
                Seems like the Google brain trust would of solved xrumer links by now. But they haven't. Do you know how long xrumer has been blasting out forum links by the millions?

                Given the fact that all xrumer links stem from the same 10k or so forums it would be very easy for them to devalue the juice coming from them.

                But they haven't.

                Besides the minute autospun plr content quits working I'll move over to Alexa's side of the tracks and rock it out that way. I just chose the route I did because of scalability.
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              • Profile picture of the author mattlaclear
                Originally Posted by Shannon Herod View Post

                I actually did not say your business does not work. What I said was it takes more of your auto spun articles to produce the same result. [edit: this is based on my testing. I use to submit auto spun crap articles. However I stopped for two reasons... 1. I was submitting them to other peoples sites. 2. I found it was not working as well any more.] So, were you need 5000 links I can see results with less.

                Also, you see higher indexing rates because you are submitting to your own network. That allows you to make sure you keep the spiders coming.

                I never said your business does not work. I believe it does. However, I also believe that if you are submitting content to other peoples sites it needs to be quality content and not garbage.

                You do not need to worry about that because you are submitting to your own site. However I do not believe your method is not a long term method. Google has employees that are way smarter than me and I will go out on a limb and say they are smarter than 99% of the people in this forum.

                So, eventually crap content will not work at all and all the links you built will become useless.



                Actually I can and I do. My writer spend up to 10 hours per day per article to make sure I can have the best of both worlds.


                Shannon
                Got your pm friend. I would be honored to do that. My email is mattl@seotrafficservices.org. Hit me up and we can get everything set up.
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            • Profile picture of the author warriorkay
              Originally Posted by mattlaclear View Post

              We even have a service where we guarantee all 5,000 article links in the package will be indexed by Google. We would not be able to offer anything like that if our article links were not being indexed at high rates.

              But please go ahead and explain my business to me some more. I personally think "right spun" articles are the biggest rip off on the net. They never read right. Ever. I have blown over $10k this year alone buying spinners that were supposedly good enough to read like real articles. I have never been happy with what I received.

              But I digress.

              So what is it to anyone if I want to put autospun plr content on my own blog network sites?

              Edit: Okay maybe spinner vendors aren't the biggest ripoff on the net. Apologies for being a bit over dramatic there. But I dislike being lectured from article spinners letting me know my autospun content is inferior to their own.

              You can't really think you can take both sides of the argument can you?

              Either you are for quality or you are for quantity. You can't be for both.
              Com'on now, Matt. You and Shannon are on the same team
              here. The only difference is the method of spinning,

              Yes, article spinners may be rip-offs because no matter what
              the creators say, they just can't produce high quality "right"
              spun articles, automatically. Like you, I blew lots of money on them
              in the past, even hiring a $5,000 per month USA programmer
              who was developing and trying to perfect one for me, for SEVERAL
              months, to no avail.
              Like I said in my course, it's still NOT yet possible
              to program a software that will produce high quality spun articles
              all the time. Not yet doesn't mean it's impossible... but not yet!

              "Rightly" spun spin ready articles, on the other hand are NOT
              rip-offs, if you get them from the right sources.
              Every IMer
              who has done article spinning obviously knows Vitavee's
              Ultra Spinnable Articles, they are of extreme quality. He
              recently confessed to me (after the release of my course) that
              I just revealed the secrets that he uses to create his ultra
              spinnable articles. Point is - when EFFORT is expended in it,
              spun articles can be high quality. So, yes, one can get quality
              and quantity with spun articles, Matt,

              Again, like I said - what is it to anyone if you want to put
              autospun PLR content on YOUR blogs?!


              Kingsley

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              • Profile picture of the author mattlaclear
                Originally Posted by warriorkay View Post

                Point is - when EFFORT is expended in it,
                spun articles can be high quality. So, yes, one can get quality
                and quantity with spun articles, Matt,
                So your premise is a rightly spun article will look better than an autospun article. On that I agree. But if you're admitting those same spinners will never read as a quality article then no you cannot claim them to be quality. I have never seen a spinner cross that divide. When it does happen I think the Internet will be completely changed from it because we'll have folks actually trying to learn something from the rightly spun articles. When that happens all hell will break loose.

                Imagine spun text books. Spun news casts. Spun constitutions.

                Since the Internet serves as the worlds largest classroom what you a re saying could prove to be very harmful to mankind if it were true.

                Cognitive thought needs to follow linear routes of development. If you write a spinner that is so well done it has 1000 different viewpoints being expressed in it all I see is one whopping huge problem.

                But from a pure seo standpoint such a spinner would be worth it's weight in gold.

                So I cannot see how "rightly spun" vendors can argue their case as one of quality as well as quantity.

                It's a nice position to portray yourself in but it is no where near accurate in my humble estimation.

                Either you're for quality or you are for quantity. You cannot claim both. Yet.
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          • Profile picture of the author tpw
            Originally Posted by Shannon Herod View Post

            Originally Posted by mattlaclear View Post

            That is an interesting theory you have there. So the auto spun plr articles I submit to my blog network all need to be useful to others before they are able to generate any link juice?

            Please explain our success then. Most likely I misunderstood your point. If so you have my apologies.

            Hey Matt,

            Auto-spun crap articles will still provide link juice "if" they get indexed. However, the vast majority of those crap articles will land in the supplemental index.

            From what I have found these links still count as links, however, their weight is noticeably diminished. Therefore it takes a lot more articles to see any results.

            Shannon answered correctly in my mind, but I want to add just a bit more context to his response.

            As I answered previously in this thread, it is all about link juice.

            According to your own testimony, you don't invest at all in creating quality content.

            Also by your testimony, it doesn't seem to hurt your results.

            But, there are exceptions to all general rules, and you know it. You have an advantage that few people who spin articles can duplicate, and you know that too.

            What is your advantage?

            You syndicate your less-than-good-quality spun articles through your own private network, providing link juice back to the individual blog placements from within your network.

            For someone who does not have a network such as you have, then the only hope of obtaining the link juice that their articles need is to create quality content that the public-at-large will be willing to link.

            Because in the end, without link juice, few articles will achieve any real link popularity or provide any sustainable SEO value.



            p.s. My answer is based on my understanding of your SEO model. Correct me where I have made any mistakes.


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            • Profile picture of the author warriorkay
              Originally Posted by tpw View Post

              Shannon answered correctly in my mind, but I want to add just a bit more context to his response.

              As I answered previously in this thread, it is all about link juice.

              According to your own testimony, you don't invest at all in creating quality content.

              Also by your testimony, it doesn't seem to hurt your results.

              But, there are exceptions to all general rules, and you know it. You have an advantage that few people who spin articles can duplicate, and you know that too.

              What is your advantage?

              You syndicate your less-than-good-quality spun articles through your own private network, providing link juice back to the individual blog placements from within your network.

              For someone who does not have a network such as you have, then the only hope of obtaining the link juice that their articles need is to create quality content that the public-at-large will be willing to link.

              Because in the end, without link juice, few articles will achieve any real link popularity or provide any sustainable SEO value.

              p.s. My answer is based on my understanding of your SEO model. Correct me where I have made any mistakes.

              .
              Exactly right, Bill. That's why is said there's no issue between
              Shannon and Matt... only in the method of spinning,

              But there you go again about the public willing to link to the
              articles. I (like many who spin and submit spun articles) don't
              wait for the public to link to our articles. We do that mainly
              to get the link juice from the submitted articles in lots of
              websites. The best we proceed to do is work to ensure Google
              finds the articles, to ensure MOST of the backlinks, if not
              all, get indexed and REWARDED by Google!

              Kingsley

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  • Profile picture of the author allina11
    Hi all,

    When you make your articles available syndication, several things can happen, such as an increase in popularity, opportunity to reach new customers, and improved traffic surge to your website. Only one thing needs to remember, content will not be copied from other website, otherwise it will cause an negative promotion of the website.
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    • Profile picture of the author warriorkay
      Originally Posted by allina11 View Post

      Hi all,

      When you make your articles available syndication, several things can happen, such as an increase in popularity, opportunity to reach new customers, and improved traffic surge to your website. Only one thing needs to remember, content will not be copied from other website, otherwise it will cause an negative promotion of the website.

      Say what? :confused:

      You lost me right there, pal.

      Kingsley

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  • Profile picture of the author Traveler66
    I really enjoyed this thread.

    It answered a lot of questions that I had been wondering about.

    Thanks
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  • Profile picture of the author DireStraits
    Just a quick comment on the whole XFactor thing, since the OP brought him up ....

    In his first old "Micro Niche AdSense Course" from 2009 or so, and in the WF thread that was ultimately responsible for it coming into being, John spoke of his exclusive method of building backlinks: writing articles and submitting them to directories.

    Now, at the time, he was relying (or so he thought) on the backlinks from the directories themselves. Many "SEO gurus" swore blind that John couldn't be ranking all these pages/sites using backlinks from the same limited number of sources and that something was seriously amiss. They had a point.

    Why?

    Because backlinks from the same sources to the same "target" sites begin to diminish in value. They'd have to or else manipulation of Google's search results would be a piece of cake: just keep spam-building links on a single site you own/control, rank for anything you want, and you're laughing. Well no, it doesn't work that way.

    What John (along with his doubters) later admitted to discovering, however, was that it wasn't the article directory links themselves that were ranking his sites; it was all the additional backlinks he was receiving over time, as his articles became syndicated/republished across countless other sites.

    Now, John didn't exactly follow the same "quality over quantity" principles as many of the other article syndicators here - he was hardly the poster-boy for high-quality syndication, and did some things a little backwardly, including writing unique articles to give to the directories. And sometimes even writing off-topic articles unrelated to his sites, just to make the process of writing "easier". The latter, especially, would've probably hindered his syndication potential a lot, and certainly would've rendered his articles useless for anything but backlinks (such as targeted referral-traffic). But that's pretty much irrelevant now, anyway, as those kinds of articles wouldn't be accepted anymore at places like EzineArticles.

    Again, this is not me condoning or encouraging John's original backlinking / article marketing method of "churn out as many articles as quickly as you can and slap them up at EzineArticles". As I say, you cannot get away with that anymore, either there or at any other article directory of consequence (of which there are few, in my opinion).

    I'm merely making the point that John's sites were ranking from syndication that he didn't even know was happening, and that many of these so-called "SEO experts" didn't even care to consider as a possible explanation (despite the fact I, myself, on several occasions, remember asking them to do so). He was achieving, through an admittedly low-grade form of article marketing, more or less what others were attempting (and struggling) to achieve by means of article spinners, mass submission software, forum profile "backlink packets" and other such nonsense.

    These days, he's a lot wiser and talks more directly about the benefits of article syndication as well as focusing on quality in everything you do.

    John did very well anyway, but just imagine what he could've achieved with article marketing - with potentially much less work and in much less time - if he'd simply prioritised quality over quantity to begin with, and actually written with syndication in mind!

    A few small lessons to take away from this:

    (1) Article syndication works (it worked for John, and he wasn't even "doing it properly" at the time! )

    (2) It offers SEO advantages as well as the possibility of referral-traffic, "branding", etc.

    (3) Don't let anyone tell you that backlinks from syndicated articles don't count: they do, and there's no conclusive (or even remotely convincing) evidence to suggest they count for any less than from unique articles.

    And remember, it's very shortsighted to look at article syndication exclusively for SEO purposes: it's far more powerful than that. Good backlinks (if you syndicate to relevant, high-quality sites) are just one of the numerous benefits. Referral-traffic and "personal"/site branding and authority-building are the other biggies, but all of these benefits only come into effect with any real force if you syndicate great articles to relevant, high-quality sites.

    And on that note, having repeated myself countless times, I'll shut up.
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  • Profile picture of the author warriorkay
    .
    I am not saying 100% DUPLICATE article syndication doesn't
    work at all. I am simply saying UNIQUELY spun articles work better
    for SEO purposes.



    ULTIMATE CHALLENGE FOR ALL
    WHO SAY "Right" ARTICLE SPINNING
    PRODUCES NO SEO VALUE AT ALL:


    I really hate getting drawn into these "back and forth" debates
    and like I said above, they serve no purpose as most people
    are programmed NOT to accept they are wrong. I see many of
    these threads almost daily here and I just look away.

    But today I have decided NOT TO look away because if we
    continue like this we end up giving WRONG information to those
    who really want to know.
    The fact that you DON'T use a
    particular method for your marketing doesn't mean it doesn't
    work. Just say you don't use it... don't say it doesn't work!
    It may not work for you, but it works VERY well for others,
    especially others who KNOW how to do it "right" and go ahead
    to actually do it DAILY and smile to the bank with the results.

    So... here's my ULTIMATE challenge...

    Those who INSIST that submitting the exact same article across
    HUNDREDS or THOUSANDS of article directories or web 2.0 or
    other sites have the SAME SEO value as submitting spun versions,
    let's carry out a PUBLIC CASE STUDY right here on this forum:

    You go ahead to submit the exact same article (call it syndication
    or whatever you want to call it) across thousands of sites...


    and

    I will go ahead to use my "right" article spinning system to spin
    and submit UNIQUE versions, each, to thousands of sites...


    Before doing that we will both document where the keywords
    we want to rank our websites currently rank in the search
    engines, then we check back again and show where the
    keywords rank one week, two weeks and 4 weeks later!


    Of course we will monitor where our various articles ARE in
    the search engines - your 100% DUPLICATE syndicated articles
    and my UNIQUELY spun articles... to show that we really only
    used these methods for the case-study.

    If anyone is up to this challenge, let's get it on. We can create
    a new thread for this. You create yours and I create mine and
    we carry out the case-study, providing all the information, the
    domain we are using for the case-study, the keywords we are
    using for the case-study, where the keywords currently rank,
    the current number of backlinks for the domain (as reported by
    YahooExplorer, MajesticSeo and BacklinkCheck), ETC. We will
    do these case-studies and let fellow warriors WATCH and decide
    whether to go with 100% duplicate article syndication or uniquely
    spun articles submission!

    If anyone is not up to this challenge, then let's just let this
    debate be and we go face our individual businesses!


    Lastly, this is what I do... all the time. I own hundreds of article
    directories and manage hundreds more for my clients. I do this
    and KNOW, from EMPIRICAL DATA, that there's more SEO value
    in submitting unique articles than from submitting 100% duplicate
    articles. So, if anyone wants to take me up on this challenge,
    let's get it on... or YOU forever STOP BASHING article spinning
    ,
    especially "right" article spinning as I have taught in my 330+
    monster "right" article spinning course!


    Kingsley

    .
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    • Profile picture of the author mattlaclear
      Originally Posted by warriorkay View Post

      .
      I am not saying 100% DUPLICATE article syndication doesn't
      work at all. I am simply saying UNIQUELY spun articles work better
      for SEO purposes.



      ULTIMATE CHALLENGE FOR ALL
      WHO SAY "Right" ARTICLE SPINNING
      PRODUCES NO SEO VALUE AT ALL:


      I really hate getting drawn into these "back and forth" debates
      and like I said above, they serve no purpose as most people
      are programmed NOT to accept they are wrong. I see many of
      these threads almost daily here and I just look away.

      But today I have decided NOT TO look away because if we
      continue like this we end up giving WRONG information to those
      who really want to know.
      The fact that you DON'T use a
      particular method for your marketing doesn't mean it doesn't
      work. Just say you don't use it... don't say it doesn't work!
      It may not work for you, but it works VERY well for others,
      especially others who KNOW how to do it "right" and go ahead
      to actually do it DAILY and smile to the bank with the results.

      So... here's my ULTIMATE challenge...

      Those who INSIST that submitting the exact same article across
      HUNDREDS or THOUSANDS of article directories or web 2.0 or
      other sites have the SAME SEO value as submitting spun versions,
      let's carry out a PUBLIC CASE STUDY right here on this forum:

      You go ahead to submit the exact same article (call it syndication
      or whatever you want to call it) across thousands of sites...


      and

      I will go ahead to use my "right" article spinning system to spin
      and submit UNIQUE versions, each, to thousands of sites...


      Before doing that we will both document where the keywords
      we want to rank our websites currently rank in the search
      engines, then we check back again and show where the
      keywords rank one week, two weeks and 4 weeks later!


      Of course we will monitor where our various articles ARE in
      the search engines - your 100% DUPLICATE syndicated articles
      and my UNIQUELY spun articles... to show that we really only
      used these methods for the case-study.

      If anyone is up to this challenge, let's get it on. We can create
      a new thread for this. You create yours and I create mine and
      we carry out the case-study, providing all the information, the
      domain we are using for the case-study, the keywords we are
      using for the case-study, where the keywords currently rank,
      the current number of backlinks for the domain (as reported by
      YahooExplorer, MajesticSeo and BacklinkCheck), ETC. We will
      do these case-studies and let fellow warriors WATCH and decide
      whether to go with 100% duplicate article syndication or uniquely
      spun articles submission!

      If anyone is not up to this challenge, then let's just let this
      debate be and we go face our individual businesses!


      Lastly, this is what I do... all the time. I own hundreds of article
      directories and manage hundreds more for my clients. I do this
      and KNOW, from EMPIRICAL DATA, that there's more SEO value
      in submitting unique articles than from submitting 100% duplicate
      articles. So, if anyone wants to take me up on this challenge,
      let's get it on... or YOU forever STOP BASHING article spinning
      ,
      especially "right" article spinning as I have taught in my 330+
      monster "right" article spinning course!


      Kingsley

      .
      I'll back you up on this challenge as well Kingsley. We only use autospun plr articles and see huge juice coming in from them. Yesterday alone we had 50 brand new page one rankings come in from them. The day before 35. The day before that another 40.

      The juice we generate every month is almost growing exponentially from the month previous.

      If spinning doesn't work then I must be one of the luckiest men on the face of this planet.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[4566494].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author warriorkay
        Originally Posted by warriorkay View Post

        .
        I am not saying 100% DUPLICATE article syndication doesn't
        work at all. I am simply saying UNIQUELY spun articles work better
        for SEO purposes.



        ULTIMATE CHALLENGE FOR ALL
        WHO SAY "Right" ARTICLE SPINNING
        PRODUCES NO SEO VALUE AT ALL:


        I really hate getting drawn into these "back and forth" debates
        and like I said above, they serve no purpose as most people
        are programmed NOT to accept they are wrong. I see many of
        these threads almost daily here and I just look away.

        But today I have decided NOT TO look away because if we
        continue like this we end up giving WRONG information to those
        who really want to know.
        The fact that you DON'T use a
        particular method for your marketing doesn't mean it doesn't
        work. Just say you don't use it... don't say it doesn't work!
        It may not work for you, but it works VERY well for others,
        especially others who KNOW how to do it "right" and go ahead
        to actually do it DAILY and smile to the bank with the results.

        So... here's my ULTIMATE challenge...

        Those who INSIST that submitting the exact same article across
        HUNDREDS or THOUSANDS of article directories or web 2.0 or
        other sites have the SAME SEO value as submitting spun versions,
        let's carry out a PUBLIC CASE STUDY right here on this forum:

        You go ahead to submit the exact same article (call it syndication
        or whatever you want to call it) across thousands of sites...


        and

        I will go ahead to use my "right" article spinning system to spin
        and submit UNIQUE versions, each, to thousands of sites...


        Before doing that we will both document where the keywords
        we want to rank our websites currently rank in the search
        engines, then we check back again and show where the
        keywords rank one week, two weeks and 4 weeks later!


        Of course we will monitor where our various articles ARE in
        the search engines - your 100% DUPLICATE syndicated articles
        and my UNIQUELY spun articles... to show that we really only
        used these methods for the case-study.

        If anyone is up to this challenge, let's get it on. We can create
        a new thread for this. You create yours and I create mine and
        we carry out the case-study, providing all the information, the
        domain we are using for the case-study, the keywords we are
        using for the case-study, where the keywords currently rank,
        the current number of backlinks for the domain (as reported by
        YahooExplorer, MajesticSeo and BacklinkCheck), ETC. We will
        do these case-studies and let fellow warriors WATCH and decide
        whether to go with 100% duplicate article syndication or uniquely
        spun articles submission!

        If anyone is not up to this challenge, then let's just let this
        debate be and we go face our individual businesses!


        Lastly, this is what I do... all the time. I own hundreds of article
        directories and manage hundreds more for my clients. I do this
        and KNOW, from EMPIRICAL DATA, that there's more SEO value
        in submitting unique articles than from submitting 100% duplicate
        articles. So, if anyone wants to take me up on this challenge,
        let's get it on... or YOU forever STOP BASHING article spinning
        ,
        especially "right" article spinning as I have taught in my 330+
        monster "right" article spinning course!


        Kingsley

        .


        Originally Posted by mattlaclear View Post

        I'll back you up on this challenge as well Kingsley. We only use autospun plr articles and see huge juice coming in from them. Yesterday alone we had 50 brand new page one rankings come in from them. The day before 35. The day before that another 40.

        The juice we generate every month is almost growing exponentially from the month previous.


        If spinning doesn't work then I must be one of the luckiest men on the face of this planet.

        Awesome, Matt. I know you get RESULTS, men, even though you
        are doing autospinning, but like I have said a gazillion times already,
        it's YOUR blogs, who should crucify you for that.

        About the challenge...

        Sadly, those who are AGAINST article spinning are not
        up to this challenge
        . Seems they are indeed all just THEORISTS?

        I thought one was "digging successfully"? Why not take
        US up on this challenge and let's see who will dig more
        successfully at the long run?

        Kingsley

        .
        Signature
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        Is The ONLY Coaching Program That Does 99% Of The Work
        TO MAKE MONEY FOR STUDENTS FROM 1ST DAY
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  • Profile picture of the author DireStraits
    Kingsley, I don't see how your test would prove much either way. The way you're talking about "ranking articles" and article syndication in more or less the same sentence indicates to me that you might not even have a clear grasp of what most article syndicators' primary goals are (hint: it is not about ranking articles on others' sites highly in the SERPs).

    Personally, I won't be partaking in yet another "spinning vs. syndicating" debate. We've been over the same old ground a zillion times and nothing ever comes of it.

    My own contribution to this thread was mainly for the benefit of the OP, who asked specifically whether syndicating articles would negatively impact his own site. The answer, quite simply, is no. The rest of my post intended only to provide a little background information about John "XFactor" Robinson's positive experiences with "unintentional" syndication, since the OP mentioned him in his post.
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    • Profile picture of the author warriorkay
      Originally Posted by DireStraits View Post

      Kingsley, I don't see how your test would prove much either way. The way you're talking about "ranking articles" and article syndication in more or less the same sentence indicates to me that you might not even have a clear grasp of what most article syndicators' primary goals are (hint: it is not about ranking articles on others' sites highly in the SERPs).
      Hahaha, where did I talk about "ranking articles" ???
      I am talking about ranking YOUR WEBSITES for your
      target keywords, using the power of "right" article spinning,
      rather than trying to achieve same thing with 100% duplicate
      articles, submitted across the directories.


      Originally Posted by DireStraits View Post

      Personally, I won't be partaking in yet another "spinning vs. syndicating" debate. We've been over the same old ground a zillion times and nothing ever comes of it.
      This is NOT about partaking in debates. This challenge is
      about DOING IT right before all warriors and letting the
      EMPIRICAL data speak for itself, rather than mere words!

      Either you are ready for that or you are not, simple!

      Originally Posted by DireStraits View Post

      My own contribution to this thread was mainly for the benefit of the OP, who asked specifically whether syndicating articles would negatively impact his own site. The answer, quite simply, is no. The rest of my post intended only to provide a little background information about John "XFactor" Robinson's positive experiences with "unintentional" syndication, since the OP mentioned him in his post.
      I also answered NO to the OP,

      I decided to have this challenge because you said...

      Originally Posted by DireStraits View Post


      (3) Don't let anyone tell you that backlinks from syndicated articles don't count: they do, and there's no conclusive (or even remotely convincing) evidence to suggest they count for any less than from unique articles.
      What I hope to PROVE with this challenge is not that
      syndicating 100% duplicate articles don't work. Of course
      they work. But they don't work as MUCH as syndicating
      uniquely spun high quality articles, ESPECIALLY for SEO
      purposes. Plain and simple!

      Again, rather than engage in these unending debates and
      THEORITIZING, let's get it on and REALLY DO THIS!

      Am still waiting...

      Anyone up to this...

      But jokes or kidding aside, I think it's time we warriors
      start being SERIOUS about the things we say here. There
      are MANY newbies who come in here expecting to hear
      EMPIRICAL TRUTHS from expert warriors, who have been
      there and done that. And they end up REALLY believing
      what they are taught here... and even spending money
      to implement what they learn. If we continue leading
      them astray, intentionally or unintentionally, it's not fair.

      If we haven't tried something well enough, we shouldn't
      condemn it based on what we THINK or what others say!

      I have used EzineArticles very extensively and have tons of
      100% unique articles submitted there. I have won all their
      Hundred Articles In Hundred Days contests. I know, from
      my various TESTS that there's MORE SEO value in submitting
      quality and uniquely spun articles across multiple directories
      than submitting 100% duplicate articles
      .

      So...

      Rather than continue talking and talking and arguing and even
      resulting to INSULTS in the many "article spinning versus duplicate
      articles", "is the spin necessary", and similar threads, let's
      get down to RAW PUBLIC EMPIRICAL CHALLENGE...


      Proof it or just shut up. I am also talking about ME. If I fail
      to proof that submitting spun articles give more SEO benefits
      than submitting (or as you call it - syndicating) 100% duplicate
      articles, then I will also SHUT UP, after the case-study!


      Kingsley

      .
      Signature
      Kingged.com Coaching and Partnership Program
      Is The ONLY Coaching Program That Does 99% Of The Work
      TO MAKE MONEY FOR STUDENTS FROM 1ST DAY
      So they EARN while they LEARN

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      • Profile picture of the author DireStraits
        Originally Posted by warriorkay View Post

        Hahaha, where did I talk about "ranking articles" ???
        I am talking about ranking YOUR WEBSITES for your
        target keywords, using the power of "right" article spinning,
        rather than trying to achieve same thing with 100% duplicate
        articles, submitted across the directories.




        This is NOT about partaking in debates. This challenge is
        about DOING IT right before all warriors and letting the
        EMPIRICAL data speak for itself, rather than mere words!

        Either you are ready for that or you are not, simple!



        I also answered NO to the OP,

        I decided to have this challenge because you said...



        What I hope to PROVE with this challenge is not that
        syndicating 100% duplicate articles don't work. Of course
        they work. But they don't work as MUCH as syndicating
        uniquely spun high quality articles, ESPECIALLY for SEO
        purposes. Plain and simple!

        Again, rather than engage in these unending debates and
        THEORITIZING, let's get it on and REALLY DO THIS!

        Am still waiting...

        Anyone up to this...

        But jokes or kidding aside, I think it's time we warriors
        start being SERIOUS about the things we say here. There
        are MANY newbies who come in here expecting to hear
        EMPIRICAL TRUTHS from expert warriors, who have been
        there and done that. And they end up REALLY believing
        what they are taught here... and even spending money
        to implement what they learn. If we continue leading
        them astray, intentionally or unintentionally, it's not fair.

        If we haven't tried something well enough, we shouldn't
        condemn it based on what we THINK or what others say!

        I have used EzineArticles very extensively and have tons of
        100% unique articles submitted there. I have won all their
        Hundred Articles In Hundred Days contests. I know, from
        my various TESTS that there's MORE SEO value in submitting
        quality and uniquely spun articles across multiple directories
        than submitting 100% duplicate articles.

        So...

        Rather than continue talking and talking and arguing and even
        resulting to INSULTS in the many "article spinning versus duplicate
        articles", "is the spin necessary", and similar threads, let's
        get down to RAW PUBLIC EMPIRICAL CHALLENGE...

        Proof it or just shut up. I am also talking about ME. If I fail
        to proof that submitting spun articles give more SEO benefits
        than submitting (or as you call it - syndicating) 100% duplicate
        articles, then I will also SHUT UP, after the case-study!


        Kingsley

        .
        Such a test cannot prove anything of the sort, empirically. It'd be far too difficult to set one up that is fair and unbiased. You know that as well as I do.

        A few points, though:

        (1) No-one here should be relying on article directory backlinks alone, anyway. They're weak, have little-to-no PR and they're non-context-relevant. The only reason we (i.e. syndicators) really want to submit to article directories is for the benefit of wider syndication. The backlinks we get as a result of syndication to high-quality, niche-relevant authority sites are much, much stronger. That was the main point of my post about XFactor: his sites weren't ranking well from the few backlinks he garnered directly from article directory submission, but from syndication to other sites beyond article directories as a result of submitting to them (although in his case I doubt those were high-quality authority sites, because he was churning out those articles one after the other - they can't have been that great).

        (2) As Bill Platt said above, even if you submit 100% unique articles to directories, by the time they're syndicated beyond them they're not unique anymore. And once you've submitted them, you cannot decide how many times they're syndicated or to whose sites (unless you syndicate them by hand).

        (3) It's difficult to track precisely how many times an article has been syndicated, and therefore "how many backlinks you have" from them. You can't rely on the backlinks data from Yahoo Site Explorer, and you couldn't rely on the data from Webmaster Tools (more accurate, but incomplete). The "best" way is to run chunks of your article in quotes through Google and see how many instances show up.

        (4) But even then you'd need to know that neither person was then building backlinks to each article-page individually to in turn increase its backlink strength. How can one do that when one cannot get an accurate count of how many backlinks a particular page on the 'net has? We can't even count the backlinks to our own sites properly, never mind the backlinks to pages on which our backlinks reside. That would be absurd, and flat-out impossible.

        Don't you see the problem? This is just the tip of the iceberg. It's virtually impossible to conduct such a test fairly and therefore totally pointless bothering.
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        • Profile picture of the author warriorkay
          Originally Posted by DireStraits View Post

          Such a test cannot prove anything of the sort, empirically. It'd be far too difficult to set one up that is fair and unbiased. You know that as well as I do.
          It will ABSOLUTELY prove A LOT, empirically... only that it will
          be VERY difficult to carry out, that's why MOST people prefer to
          theorize, than actually DO,


          But I am READY to carry it out, re "right" article spinning. I have
          the skills and the resources to PROVE that uniquely spun articles
          indeed have more SEO benefits than 100% duplicate articles,
          when submitted (or syndicated)!


          Originally Posted by DireStraits View Post

          A few points, though:
          Sure, let's hear them,

          Originally Posted by DireStraits View Post

          (1) No-one here should be relying on article directory backlinks alone, anyway.
          I agree 100%. For one I am not talking about "article directory"
          backlinks alone. Heck, who ever said article marketing or article
          spinning is ALL about submitting spun articles to article directories??!!!


          Even Unique Article Wizard and the other article submission
          services submit to everyday sites and blogs that are NOT
          traditional article directories.

          Originally Posted by DireStraits View Post

          They're weak, have little-to-no PR and they're non-context-relevant.
          This doesn't mean they don't work! They work for me, but
          apart from just me, there are warriors in here who are ranking
          people's keywords in the top of Google using these same
          "have little-to-no PR and non-context-relevant" backlinks,

          Originally Posted by DireStraits View Post

          The only reason we (i.e. syndicators) really want to submit to article directories is for the benefit of wider syndication. The backlinks we get as a result of syndication to high-quality, niche-relevant authority sites are much, much stronger. That was the main point of my post about XFactor: his sites weren't ranking well from the few backlinks he garnered directly from article directory submission, but from syndication to other sites beyond article directories as a result of submitting to them (although in his case I doubt those were high-quality authority sites, because he was churning out those articles one after the other - they can't have been that great).
          To each his own. What I am saying is stick to what works
          for you, but DON'T condemn what works for other people!


          Originally Posted by DireStraits View Post

          (2) As Bill Platt said above, even if you submit 100% unique articles to directories, by the time they're syndicated beyond them they're not unique anymore. And once you've submitted them, you cannot decide how many times they're syndicated or to whose sites (unless you syndicate them by hand).
          And as I replied to Bill (you missed the reply? )...

          And that's IF...

          What IF the articles don't get syndicated? Don't you STILL get
          the value of that particular backlink? Even if it gets syndicated,
          you still get the value of that particular backlink and a few of
          others that get submitted elsewhere.

          More so, using a service like Unique Article Wizard to submit
          your articles to the article directories/blogs prevents this problem.
          It allows webmasters to spin and create a unique version, from
          the articles they want to syndicate, thereby getting a
          unique version to use on their sites.


          Originally Posted by DireStraits View Post

          (3) It's difficult to track precisely how many times an article has been syndicated, and therefore "how many backlinks you have" from them. You can't rely on the backlinks data from Yahoo Site Explorer, and you couldn't rely on the data from Webmaster Tools (more accurate, but incomplete). The "best" way is to run chunks of your article in quotes through Google and see how many instances show up.
          Of course you can't rely on the backlinks data from Yahoo
          explorer alone... that's why I included 2 other more accurate
          backlinks checkers. You missed that too?

          And no, using a combination of the various backlinks checkers
          will give you better idea of where your backlinks are, than using
          quotes to search through Google!

          Originally Posted by DireStraits View Post

          (4) But even then you'd need to know that neither person was then building backlinks to each article-page individually to in turn increase its backlink strength. How can one do that when one cannot get an accurate count of how many backlinks a particular page on the 'net has? We can't even count the backlinks to our own sites properly, never mind the backlinks to pages on which our backlinks reside. That would be absurd, and flat-out impossible.

          Don't you see the problem? This is just the tip of the iceberg. It's virtually impossible to conduct such a test fairly and therefore totally pointless bothering.
          Again, it's not absurd nor is it flat-out impossible. It's just
          time-consuming (like most aspects of IM are). That's why
          MOST people DON'T DO. They prefer to theorize,


          Kingsley

          .
          Signature
          Kingged.com Coaching and Partnership Program
          Is The ONLY Coaching Program That Does 99% Of The Work
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        • Profile picture of the author drmani
          Originally Posted by DireStraits View Post

          (1) No-one here should be relying on article directory backlinks alone, anyway. They're weak, have little-to-no PR and they're non-context-relevant. The only reason we (i.e. syndicators) really want to submit to article directories is for the benefit of wider syndication. The backlinks we get as a result of syndication to high-quality, niche-relevant authority sites are much, much stronger.
          Michael,

          That's factually incorrect from my own (somewhat limited) testing.

          I've been pleasantly surprised to have my niche sites' SUB-pages
          (which have only ever been linked to from article directory submissions)
          gain PR4s from time to time. 'Weak' backlinks can't do that.

          Non-context-relevant linking still has the SEO jury out - so can't
          carry any convincing 'recommendation-value' one way or the other.

          As a general or blanket statement, I'd also debate the point about
          backlinks from syndication being uniformly stronger or higher
          value, UNLESS you control the syndication tightly enough and have
          a say on where your articles are re-published.

          All success
          Dr.Mani
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          • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
            Originally Posted by drmani View Post


            The REAL argument of the pro-syndication group is that they
            rely on syndicated articles THEMSELVES for traffic - and NOT
            upon the SEO boost that 'spinners' count on... so the 'challenge'
            won't answer that question/debate completely or conclusively.
            This is very important. ^^^

            I syndicate articles to high authority or heavily visited sites and ezines in whatever niche I target.

            I don't very often submit to directories or syndicate with SEO value being a primary goal. I do it to get my articles directly in front of eyeballs that are interested. That way I'm not competing with the other 9 sites on Googles first page but going direct to the source.

            If it ranks well too then it's a bonus. I've never understood why people wait for articles to get syndicated on directories when one can be actively building a very profitable relationship with the owners of sites and Ezines where one's target market is hanging out.

            Incidentally I'm not knocking either method. I know Kingsley is successful doing what he does like others here are successful at syndication.
            Signature

            Wibble, bark, my old man's a mushroom etc...

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          • Profile picture of the author DireStraits
            Originally Posted by drmani View Post

            I've been pleasantly surprised to have my niche sites' SUB-pages
            (which have only ever been linked to from article directory submissions)
            gain PR4s from time to time. 'Weak' backlinks can't do that.
            Glad to hear it, if that's been the case for you, Mani.

            However, I think you'd need an awful lot of them, or somehow have had your article featured on the homepage of one of these directories, or whatever, to get any real link-juice from them.

            Most article directories have far too many pages of content (whether it be spun/unique or syndicated) and just not enough backlinks (or linkjuice). PageRank only gets passed through links, so they can't very well have any PageRank unless (a) the page itself has backlinks built to it, or (b) the article (or a link to it) gets featured on some already-high-PR page within the site.

            PR flows around a site's internal linking structure, too, of course, so it's difficult to ascertain exactly where this PageRank came from, I would think?

            Originally Posted by drmani View Post

            Non-context-relevant linking still has the SEO jury out - so can't
            carry any convincing 'recommendation-value' one way or the other.
            Well, that's really no different to any of the other arguments about SEO. E.g. how much weight does PageRank really carry these days, does context-relevance really matter, do "nofollow" links still count, etc, etc. The list goes on ...

            Originally Posted by drmani View Post

            As a general or blanket statement, I'd also debate the point about
            backlinks from syndication being uniformly stronger or higher
            value, UNLESS you control the syndication tightly enough and have
            a say on where your articles are re-published.
            Of course, it's all about where your articles are published. It's just that non-article-directories typically have fewer outgoing links, a better pages:backlinks ratio (and remember it's not just about number of backlinks, but strength), and so on, and for all these reasons and more, a single backlink from such a site will typically have or accumulate and pass on more "oomph" than anything you'd get from an article directory. And that's without considering "context-relevance", if indeed you believe that counts for anything.

            Actually, I'm as sick of these endless, unproductive debates/arguments as everyone else, but I'm being realistic, here: what Kingsley is proposing just won't work, no matter how he tries to spin it or convince us otherwise. It wouldn't be fair, and it'd be wide open to interference and manipulation.
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        • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
          Banned
          Originally Posted by DireStraits View Post

          Don't you see the problem?
          Some people genuinely don't see that problem, Mike. I'm "just saying".

          With absolutely no disrespect to Kingsley, it's always possible that people advertising spinning services may look at what they think of as "article marketing" in SEO terms.

          To those of us "digging successfully", rather than "selling shovels", of course, article marketing is about getting high quality articles in front of highly targeted traffic. But as long as there are people who regard articles as "a form of SEO", there'll be "challenges" like that. :p

          Best just to point out their utter irrelevance and move on, in my view.
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          • Profile picture of the author DireStraits
            Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

            Some people genuinely don't see that problem, Mike. I'm "just saying".

            With absolutely no disrespect to Kingsley, it's always possible that people advertising spinning services may look at what they think of as "article marketing" in SEO terms.

            To those of us "digging successfully", rather than "selling shovels", of course, article marketing is about getting high quality articles in front of highly targeted traffic. But as long as there are people who regard articles as "a form of SEO", there'll be "challenges" like that. :p

            Best just to point out their utter irrelevance and move on, in my view.
            I am slowly edging my way out of here (or trying to), don't worry, LOL!
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          • Profile picture of the author warriorkay
            Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

            Some people genuinely don't see that problem, Mike. I'm "just saying".

            With absolutely no disrespect to Kingsley, it's always possible that people advertising spinning services may look at what they think of as "article marketing" in SEO terms.

            To those of us "digging successfully", rather than "selling shovels", of course, article marketing is about getting high quality articles in front of highly targeted traffic. But as long as there are people who regard articles as "a form of SEO", there'll be "challenges" like that. :p

            Best just to point out their utter irrelevance and move on, in my view.

            In response to what you just said... what better response
            can I give than what has already been said, thus:


            Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post


            Alexa,

            Would you be so kind as to stop with the artificial dichotomy silliness? Article marketing is a superset that includes both of the techniques you refer to in your usual discourses on the subject.

            The primary approaches of each are different. One looks to generate traffic through better rankings in the SERPs, while the other looks to create traffic and authority through the quality of the content. But they both involve marketing through the use of short content pieces, commonly called "articles." And they overlap in significant ways when done correctly.

            Different roads to Rome.


            Paul
            That's not mine, by the way, that's Paul Myers, ...
            but the emphasis are mine,

            Or do you profess to KNOW more than Paul, Alexa?

            Or Paul is also selling shovels, rather than digging successfully?

            Kingsley

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          • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
            Kingsley, you brought up Unique Article Wizard. I tried that service on the receiving end - added the plugin to an article site that was sitting more or less dormant because I was working on other things.

            What I got from that plugin was some of the worst garbage I've seen from article spinners. I have to assume that these people (about 95%+ of submissions received) were not doing "right article spinning" as you call it.

            Even the moderately readable articles were often submitted to the wrong categories. One lost soul seemed bound and determined to get his toy train articles published in my fishing and outdoors category.

            As for the concept of spinning, I've always maintained that if I can't tell, I don't care.

            And I've never said that articles that meet that criteria had no SEO value. I just don't think that the fact that the article is spun adds all that much. At least not the way I do things.

            About the only advantage I can see from spun articles, if they are readable, is that they may tick off additional long tail keywords.

            I think we can all agree that the end result we all want is interested human eyeballs on our offers. Eyeballs connected to human brains with bank accounts and credit cards.

            In the ancient days, it was said that "all roads lead to Rome." We all want to get to Rome. Some of us are just travelling different roads.
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            • Profile picture of the author tpw
              Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe View Post

              What I got from that plugin was some of the worst garbage I've seen from article spinners. I have to assume that these people (about 95%+ of submissions received) were not doing "right article spinning" as you call it.

              Any system that can be abused will be abused. It is the rule of the jungle.

              Any spinning system that can create great spun content will be abused by any half-wit who thinks that quality doesn't count. :rolleyes:

              Any syndication system that accepts content from the general public will be abused by any half-wit who thinks that volume can defeat quality.

              What people on both sides of this argument keep forgetting is that the collective "WE" are the exceptional ones, among the masses of lazy folks who spend their time online chasing the fast buck!!



              On the spinning side of the table, there is Kingsley, Kurt and Shannon, plus others whose names elude me at the moment, who do spin articles with the intent of creating quality.

              On the syndication side of the table, there are folks like myself, Alexa Smith, Michael, John McCabe, Dr. Mani, Richard Van, and many more whose names escape me in this moment.

              In the middle are the 90% of the online marketing community who don't give a rat's ass about quality or giving value to the public-at-large.

              The 5% of people on the spinning side who do spinning the right way, do it well and see fantastic results in SEO.

              The 5% of people on the syndication side of the table who want to create good quality content, frequently find publication on high authority websites and newsletters, and they see fantastic results in acquiring direct traffic from their articles, which was their original goal in the first place.

              The 5% of writers at each end of the spectrum have different goals and different measuring sticks to determine a successful article marketing campaign... And both sides perform miracles that wanna-be marketers can only dream about...

              And those 90% in the middle still don't give a **** about quality or giving value to others!!


              .
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              • Profile picture of the author warriorkay
                Originally Posted by tpw View Post

                Any system that can be abused will be abused. It is the rule of the jungle.

                Any spinning system that can create great spun content will be abused by any half-wit who thinks that quality doesn't count. :rolleyes:

                Any syndication system that accepts content from the general public will be abused by any half-wit who thinks that volume can defeat quality.

                What people on both sides of this argument keep forgetting is that the collective "WE" are the exceptional ones, among the masses of lazy folks who spend their time online chasing the fast buck!!



                On the spinning side of the table, there is Kingsley, Kurt and Shannon, plus others whose names elude me at the moment, who do spin articles with the intent of creating quality.

                On the syndication side of the table, there are folks like myself, Alexa Smith, Michael, John McCabe, Dr. Mani, Richard Van, and many more whose names escape me in this moment.

                In the middle are the 90% of the online marketing community who don't give a rat's ass about quality or giving value to the public-at-large.

                The 5% of people on the spinning side who do spinning the right way, do it well and see fantastic results in SEO.

                The 5% of people on the syndication side of the table who want to create good quality content, frequently find publication on high authority websites and newsletters, and they see fantastic results in acquiring direct traffic from their articles, which was their original goal in the first place.

                The 5% of writers at each end of the spectrum have different goals and different measuring sticks to determine a successful article marketing campaign... And both sides perform miracles that wanna-be marketers can only dream about...

                And those 90% in the middle still don't give a **** about quality or giving value to others!!


                .

                You SHOULD be a POLITICIAN...


                Kingsley


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              • Profile picture of the author drmani
                Originally Posted by tpw View Post

                On the spinning side of the table, there is Kingsley, Kurt and Shannon, plus others whose names elude me at the moment, who do spin articles with the intent of creating quality.

                On the syndication side of the table, there are folks like myself, Alexa Smith, Michael, John McCabe, Dr. Mani, Richard Van, and many more whose names escape me in this moment.
                .
                Bill, I've got feet in BOTH camps - and will for as long as they work.

                The only other caveat that guides my article marketing is that it
                must add value to readers.

                All success
                Dr.Mani
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          • Profile picture of the author Shannon Herod
            Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

            Some people genuinely don't see that problem, Mike. I'm "just saying".

            With absolutely no disrespect to Kingsley, it's always possible that people advertising spinning services may look at what they think of as "article marketing" in SEO terms.

            To those of us "digging successfully", rather than "selling shovels", of course, article marketing is about getting high quality articles in front of highly targeted traffic. But as long as there are people who regard articles as "a form of SEO", there'll be "challenges" like that. :p

            Best just to point out their utter irrelevance and move on, in my view.
            My opinion is biased because spinning works for me, and I sell a service that provides them. There for my points are mute.

            However, in regards to this quote...

            Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

            To those of us "digging successfully", rather than "selling shovels", of course, article marketing is about getting high quality articles in front of highly targeted traffic. But as long as there are people who regard articles as "a form of SEO", there'll be "challenges" like that. :p
            I have been successfully digging long before you even considered putting your first article on the net.

            Oh... and by the way, if you did any research on me you would find that 90% my business lies outside of the "make money" niche. i.e "digging"

            Also, most of what you know was being pioneered by me and many others while you were still in middle school.

            Regards,

            Shannon
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            • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
              Banned
              Originally Posted by Shannon Herod View Post

              I sell a service that provides them.
              I hadn't actually realised, to be honest.

              But obviously I'm aware that when spinning and mass-submission and the concept of "article marketing" as being intrinsically "a branch of SEO" () are discussed, those collectively in disagreement with all of us earning our livings as article marketers do tend to be those selling spinning and submission tools/services. That's true of three of the people who regularly debate this issue here, anyway. And with absolutely no disrespect at all to any of them, everyone knows it.

              But I do appreciate that you're totally open and honest about that and I respect that and thank you for mentioning it.

              Originally Posted by Shannon Herod View Post

              most of what you know was being pioneered by me and many others while you were still in middle school.
              I'm sorry that my age apparently gives you a problem, Shannon. There's simply nothing I can do about it.

              And just as you're too open and honest to conceal your financial interest in what we're discussing, I'm not willing to pretend to be older than I am, or to pretend to have been making my full-time living from article marketing for more than about 2 and a half years.

              If it makes you feel better, I'm nearly a year older now than I was last time you brought up the subject.
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              • Profile picture of the author Shannon Herod
                Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

                And just as you're too open and honest to conceal your financial interest in what we're discussing, I'm not willing to pretend to be older than I am, or to pretend to have been making my full-time living from article marketing for more than about 2 and a half years.

                If it makes you feel better, I'm nearly a year older now than I was last time you brought up the subject.
                It has nothing to do with your age, I am simply pointing out that you know how to successfully do article marketing today, because of what people like me and many others were testing and perfecting while you were still an adolescent.

                You may not believe that to be true, but me and many others were on this very forum (different platform) many moons ago talking about how syndication works and the best ways to leverage it. I started this game when I was about your age... 21 and that was in 2002. My biggest point is do not disrespect the ones that paved they way for you and others.

                I actually respect you because of your age. Half the time you post I need a dictionary just to decipher it, and I am smarter because of it.

                However, you are mistaken if you believe that spinning and mass submission is not a legitimate branch of article marketing.

                I mean the food on my table and the roof over my head proves that to be false.
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                • Profile picture of the author mattlaclear
                  Originally Posted by Shannon Herod View Post

                  I mean the food on my table and the roof over my head proves that to be false.
                  That right there is why we all get incensed with one another. Most of us are putting bread on the table with our systems and their experience would seemingly prove your assertions false as well.

                  Sooner or later we have to get together and realize that Google is accepting link juice from just about anything that even remotely looks like a backlink.

                  It's this point that causes the fuss.

                  We're all right.
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                • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
                  Banned
                  Originally Posted by Shannon Herod View Post

                  you are mistaken if you believe that spinning and mass submission is not a legitimate branch of article marketing.

                  I mean the food on my table and the roof over my head proves that to be false.
                  With respect, to me it proves two things: (a) that it used to work (which I've never questioned), and (b) that people are still paying you to do it now.

                  We're - sadly but inevitably - back to "digging for gold" and "selling shovels in a gold rush", simply because nobody here can seriously doubt that those in these conversations who are opposed to spinning and mass submission are making our livings without it (many of us having tried it for long enough to conclude that it no longer works for most people, most of the time - and there are a thousand threads testifying to that - and that's all I've ever said about it) while the incentive of those apparently in favour of it is clear for all to see.

                  It seems puzzling to me that my age isn't an issue to you, when you've brought it up three times now, and seem to attach such significance to the fact that you were doing article marketing when I was in middle school (which - by the way - I don't doubt and have never once questioned). But maybe when I'm older and have more experience I'll be able understand that apparent dichotomy more clearly.

                  I prefer other methods, myself, as increasingly do other people trying them, too. But I have less incentive than some here to debate them for ever, as I'm not selling/promoting anything and my income doesn't depend on whether or not people believe me. Maybe if you were younger and had less experience you'd be able to understand that more clearly?
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            • Profile picture of the author warriorkay
              Originally Posted by Shannon Herod View Post

              My opinion is biased because spinning works for me, and I sell a service that provides them. There for my points are mute.

              However, in regards to this quote...

              I have been successfully digging long before you even considered putting your first article on the net.

              Oh... and by the way, if you did any research on me you would find that 90% my business lies outside of the "make money" niche. i.e "digging"

              Also, most of what you know was being pioneered by me and many others while you were still in middle school.

              Regards,

              Shannon
              That's why I don't like getting involved in such threads...
              they start to get personal. While I can understand how irked
              you may be hearing Alexa talk like she has been doing this
              for MANY YEARS, take it easy, . Age doesn't matter, especially
              when we stick to what WORKS, based on experience, rather
              than what we THINK or what we HEAR others say.

              Again, am having fun with this and will try not to get personal,
              no matter how irked Alexa will make me, with her sometimes
              plainly inaccurate statements,

              Kingsley

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              • Profile picture of the author mattlaclear
                Originally Posted by warriorkay View Post

                That's why I don't like getting involved in such threads...
                they start to get personal. While I can understand how irked
                you may be hearing Alexa talk like she has been doing this
                for MANY YEARS, take it easy, . Age doesn't matter, especially
                when we stick to what WORKS, based on experience, rather
                than what we THINK or what we HEAR others say.

                Again, am having fun with this and will try not to get personal,
                no matter how irked Alexa will make me, with her sometimes
                plainly inaccurate statements,

                Kingsley

                .
                You think the back and forths are tough between article writers and article spinners you ought to check out the battle between blog network owners. It is completely vicious.
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                • Profile picture of the author warriorkay
                  Originally Posted by mattlaclear View Post

                  You think the back and forths are tough between article writers and article spinners you ought to check out the battle between blog network owners. It is completely vicious.
                  Hahaha, I saw one of the threads between you and them and
                  nearly joined in, being that I also own a network of HUNDREDS
                  of sites myself, but the VICIOUSNESS was just too much for
                  me to bear,

                  Kingsley

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                  • Profile picture of the author mattlaclear
                    Originally Posted by warriorkay View Post

                    Hahaha, I saw one of the threads between you and them and
                    nearly joined in, being that I also own a network of HUNDREDS
                    of sites myself, but the VICIOUSNESS was just too much for
                    me to bear,

                    Kingsley

                    .
                    I guess every dog has to bark at the moon once in awhile. Plenty of barking going on in that section of the forum for sure.
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            • Profile picture of the author mattlaclear
              Originally Posted by Shannon Herod View Post

              Also, most of what you know was being pioneered by me and many others while you were still in middle school.

              Regards,

              Shannon
              The fact I disagree with Alexa quite regularly has nothing to do with her young age or the way she constantly updates her avatar. I started in business for myself right out of college so I have a ton of respect for the way she is handling her affairs here on the forum.

              What were you doing when you were 21? Any posts from back then that we can check out?
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            • Profile picture of the author Psst
              Banned
              Originally Posted by Shannon Herod View Post


              Also, most of what you know was being pioneered by me and many others while you were still in middle school.

              Regards,

              Shannon
              Ya we all know that. Weren't you the one who invented the internet ?
              You even pioneered the concept of Search engine when Larry Page and Seregy Brin were still wishing they touched a keyboard.
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              • Profile picture of the author Shannon Herod
                Originally Posted by Psst View Post

                Ya we all know that. Weren't you the one who invented the internet ?
                You even pioneered the concept of Search engine when Larry Page and Seregy Brin were still wishing they touched a keyboard.
                Nope.

                However, I was testing add developing the successful systems most marketers use today almost 10 years ago.

                So, be as sarcastic as you want, but I built a successful business long before most of this forum even knew what internet marketing was.
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    • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
      Banned
      Originally Posted by DireStraits View Post

      Kingsley, I don't see how your test would prove much either way.
      Indeed, it can't, in my opinion.

      Originally Posted by DireStraits View Post

      The way you're talking about "ranking articles" and article syndication in more or less the same sentence indicates to me that you might not even have a clear grasp of what most article syndicators' primary goals are
      He doesn't, in my opinion.

      Originally Posted by DireStraits View Post

      (hint: it is not about ranking articles on others' sites highly in the SERPs).
      Michael, with respect, however many hints you drop, it will - as ever - be unproductive to discuss this without them being picked up, and that isn't within your control.

      Originally Posted by DireStraits View Post

      My own contribution to this thread was mainly for the benefit of the OP, who asked specifically whether syndicating articles would negatively impact his own site. The answer, quite simply, is no.
      Of course it is.
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  • Profile picture of the author JamesJeffery
    I've ran challenges on other forums, and sometimes the unexpected results work.

    I'm up for this. I have 2 fresh adsense sites I'd be willing to use to participate plus various tools to aid in the process.

    Very interesting topic to wake up to this morning.
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    • Profile picture of the author warriorkay
      Originally Posted by JamesJeffery View Post

      I've ran challenges on other forums, and sometimes the unexpected results work.

      I'm up for this. I have 2 fresh adsense sites I'd be willing to use to participate plus various tools to aid in the process.

      Very interesting topic to wake up to this morning.

      Hey James,

      Thanks, men. I appreciate it, but seriously - I am focusing on
      those who are ALWAYS quick to jump and slash article spinning,
      when it's clear they haven't done any real TESTS to see
      whether doing it right can work or not. They are the people
      I want to do this challenge with. It's time for them to DO, rather
      than continue talking... without EMPIRICAL DATA to prove.

      But of course, you can WATCH as a participant, when the
      challenge kicks in. I am going to wait for the "usual" article
      spinning and "article directory marketing" haters to take me
      up on the challenge,

      And by the way, I am all for having FUN... this means I intend
      to have fun with this, not make war, . I am a happy warrior,
      who try not to hold any grudges. I try to like every warrior in
      here and will NEVER intentionally try to ridicule anyone. I am
      doing this to HELP all of us in setting the records straight. Who
      knows, I might be "convinced away" from my current system,
      if it's proven, beyond all reasonable doubts, that I am wasting
      my time with "right" article spinning, for SEO purposes!

      Kingsley

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  • Profile picture of the author Kierkegaard
    Duplicate articles aren't filtered out of the SERPS as anyone who has experienced the frustration of searching Google and finding all 10 results on the first page are the same article published on 10 different sites knows.
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    • Profile picture of the author warriorkay
      Originally Posted by Kierkegaard View Post

      Duplicate articles aren't filtered out of the SERPS as anyone who has experienced the frustration of searching Google and finding all 10 results on the first page are the same article published on 10 different sites knows.

      Hmmm, are you really sure?

      Does that mean if I submit the SAME article to 1,000 sites,
      all 1,000 duplicate copies will be indexed in Google's SERPS and
      will all show up when people search?!

      Kingsley

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      • Profile picture of the author Kierkegaard
        Originally Posted by warriorkay View Post

        Hmmm, are you really sure?

        Does that mean if I submit the SAME article to 1,000 sites,
        all 1,000 duplicate copies will be indexed in Google's SERPS and
        will all show up when people search?!

        Kingsley

        .
        Of course not, don't be silly.

        However, the same article can appear on 10 different sites taking up all 10 spots on page 1 of Google.
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        • Profile picture of the author warriorkay
          Originally Posted by Kierkegaard View Post

          Of course not, don't be silly.

          However, the same article can appear on 10 different sites taking up all 10 spots on page 1 of Google.
          All 10 spots on page 1 of Google?

          Google has gone more ADVANCED than that, nowadays, I'd say.
          I will love to see such example TODAY. Please show me,

          Kingsley

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  • Profile picture of the author Kierkegaard
    WarriorKay: Just search for keywords with the word review at the end. You'll find plenty of duplicate reviews all on different sites.

    My posts are actually intended for the OP who asked about possible Google penalities for syndicating articles across multiple sources. Your posts seem only to be about defending article spinning.
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  • Profile picture of the author jezbiz
    wow really great thread,I just finished making my little site for my targeted niche and it ranked well on google, now I'm trying to find ways to drive traffic into it.
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    Need Articles? chek my gig @ http://fiverr.com/markwilson

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  • Profile picture of the author Shannon Herod
    I have tested Right spun articles, which I call Crazy spin articles, and found when you spin the right way there are big advantages.

    Here is why... indexing is a big issue when it comes to link building. Next you need to concider the weight that link has.

    So here is my test... Does a link that is in the supplemental index carry the same weight as one in the actual SERP's.

    What I found is that the link inside the SERP's carry more weight. Therefore they are more valuable to me.

    Here is a training I did on that test...

    http://focused2win.com/fastwebsite/106-2/
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  • Profile picture of the author warriorkay
    Hey John,

    You have a point with garbage being submitted by many
    people, in the name of article spinning. That's the problem.
    You have no idea what Unique Article Wizard goes through
    trying to manually check the articles before they get submitted.
    I should know. I was on the receiving end sometime back,
    with my own article distribution system,

    Being one of the owners of the article directories, that's
    one of the PRIMARY reasons I spent the last 6+ months to
    put together my comprehensive article spinning secrets
    course - to teach people how to do it RIGHT. I am right now
    working with Unique Article Wizard and other such services
    to teach their members my concept of "right" article spinning!

    Kingsley

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  • Profile picture of the author Traveler66
    I have never noticed Google penalizing for this.

    I publish several online publications and often publish the same or a similar article in more than one. I also submit my articles to other publications and blogs.

    It has always helped me.


    Traveler66
    Author of Finding New Customers On the Backroads
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    • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
      Originally Posted by Traveler66 View Post

      I have never noticed Google penalizing for this.

      I publish several online publications and often publish the same or a similar article in more than one. I also submit my articles to other publications and blogs.

      It has always helped me.


      Traveler66
      Author of
      Hi,

      You haven't actually read the thread have you?

      Are you just here to get us all to buy your book you keep linking to in each one of your posts you managed to write since you got here today?
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      Wibble, bark, my old man's a mushroom etc...

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  • Profile picture of the author warriorkay
    .
    Shannon... spun articles get SEO benefits, rightly spun,
    or wrongly spun. And Matt gets amazing results from his
    system. There's no denying that.

    Like I said earlier, I have no problems with his system, since
    he submits his articles to HIS blog network, but I prefer
    to do "right" article spinning, to stay on the SAFE side
    of Google's future improvements... and because I also
    submit my spun articles to websites/blogs other than mine...
    so it has to be quality, to contribute to the blogs while
    also getting the SEO benefits I want.

    Kingsley

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  • Profile picture of the author mattlaclear
    I would be willing to do a test though. Should be fun to set up. I'll have my staff create 200 new blogs on separate ip's.

    We'll split the blogs into two groups. One we'll write a quality article and get it indexed on one of the blogs. Once it is indexed we'll submit the same article as syndicated content on the other 99 blogs in that group.

    Then we'll submit one autospun plr article to the 100 blogs in the other network.

    For the test money sites we'll set up two blogs on top level domains with non emd's. We'll use a 1000 word unique articles with the same level of on page optimization on both the money sites.

    Then we check out to see which network produced the most juice.

    Make sense?
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    • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
      I'd love to see the results of this challenge.

      Like I've already said though, I don't do syndication for SEO purposes. I want my article directly in front of my potential customers. It is a simple as that. I don't like relying on Google for traffic and what I get from them is a bonus.

      Please also Kingsley, don't make any assumptions about me or anyone else being theorist's, I'm testing your book out now and I've been using Matt's services as well.

      I test everything relentlessly and I'm not a theorist.
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      • Profile picture of the author warriorkay
        Originally Posted by Richard Van View Post


        Please also Kingsley, don't make any assumptions about me or anyone else being theorist's, I'm testing your book out now and I've been using Matt's services as well.

        I test everything relentlessly and I'm not a theorist.
        Of course I am not referring to you, Richard. 6 months ago when
        I shared my tips in my thread below, you were receptive and you
        listened, desiring to know more... meaning you were willing to learn
        and TEST things out to see what results you would get.

        The thread in question:

        http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...ens-souls.html

        I am referring to those who have NOT done any TESTS but are
        willing to happily condemn a system and those who do it,

        Kingsley
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    • Profile picture of the author warriorkay
      Originally Posted by mattlaclear View Post

      I would be willing to do a test though. Should be fun to set up. I'll have my staff create 200 new blogs on separate ip's.

      We'll split the blogs into two groups. One we'll write a quality article and get it indexed on one of the blogs. Once it is indexed we'll submit the same article as syndicated content on the other 99 blogs in that group.

      Then we'll submit one autospun plr article to the 100 blogs in the other network.

      For the test money sites we'll set up two blogs on top level domains with non emd's. We'll use a 1000 word unique articles with the same level of on page optimization on both the money sites.

      Then we check out to see which network produced the most juice.

      Make sense?
      Now that's what I am talking about - real TESTS to get some
      EMPIRICAL data based on experience, not theory!

      That's the benefit of running a company with staffs that you
      can assign tasks to do. You can actually carry out TESTS to
      see what works and what doesn't work, rather than just TALK!
      Truth is we all get lazy to DO what needs to be done. Heck,
      I also get lazy and I don't think I can happily sit down right
      now to write a "right" spin ready article. Yes, I could, in the
      past, but with more on your plate you just can't anymore.
      That's why I have tons of staffs to assign that tedious task
      to,

      I have carried out such tests in the past, Matt and I KNOW
      what results I have achieved. The trouble is that those who
      are against article spinning here will, mostly, NOT believe,
      even if you show them your results. That's why I would have
      preferred if such haters of article spinning get involved in this
      challenge - let them do their thing and we do our thing... at
      the end of the day let's see whose give more SEO benefit!!!


      So, if none of the haters of article spinning are willing to get
      involved in this challenge, I'd say save yourself the trouble, Matt!

      Kingsley

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    • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
      Banned
      Originally Posted by mattlaclear View Post

      Make sense?
      To me, no - not at all.

      It entirely misses the point and clearly won't and can't measure what it purports to, for the reasons explained by Michael above but conveniently ignored by some.

      It will, however, provide something useful to those here who are promoting spinning and submission software and services, for the glaringly obvious reason that that's what it been designed to do. So that's ok, then: it is a marketing forum, after all.

      Originally Posted by Shannon Herod View Post

      I built a successful business long before most of this forum even knew what internet marketing was.
      Oops - there you go showing your age yet again!
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      • Profile picture of the author mattlaclear
        Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

        To me, no - not at all.

        It entirely misses the point and clearly won't and can't measure what it purports to, for the reasons explained by Michael above but conveniently ignored by some.

        It will, however, provide something useful to those here who are promoting spinning and submission software and services, for the glaringly obvious reason that that's what it been designed to do. So that's ok, then: it is a marketing forum, after all.

        Oops - there you go showing your age yet again!
        So you admit that spun articles generate more juice than non spun syndicated articles?
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      • Profile picture of the author myob
        Hell, I've been writing articles long before Al Gore thought of inventing the internet. And I'm old and cranky and just too damn lazy to spin articles "right". I write them right the first time and send them off to my syndicated network of over 25,000 websites, blogs, ezine publishers, offline magazines, trade journals and newspapers.

        Writing one or two articles every two-three weeks for each niche generates a fairly consistent average of 70,000 targeted visitors daily of which 48,000 buy or subscribe to my lists. And every week I'm adding 15-20 new syndicated outlets for my articles. Nothing I have seen so far can beat that.
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        • Profile picture of the author mattlaclear
          Originally Posted by myob View Post

          Hell, I've been writing articles even before Al Gore thought of inventing the internet. And I'm old and cranky and just too damn lazy to spin articles "right". I write them right the first time and send them off to my syndicated network of over 25,000 websites, blogs, ezine publishers, offline magazines, trade journals and newspapers.

          Writing one or two articles every two-three weeks for each niche generates a fairly consistent average of 70,000 targeted visitors daily of which 48,000 buy or subscribe to my lists. And every week I'm adding 15-20 new syndicated outlets for my articles. Nothing I have seen so far can beat that.
          Nothing you have seen can beat that?
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          • Profile picture of the author myob
            Originally Posted by mattlaclear View Post

            Nothing you have seen can beat that?
            You put a nice, respectable spin on my statement. Good job, keep it up.
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            • Profile picture of the author mattlaclear
              Originally Posted by myob View Post

              You put a nice, respectable spin on my statement. Good job, keep it up.
              Wasn't spinning anything. Was just asking you a question regarding your very definitive statement.

              Edit: I don't know how a respectable spin of your statement would read. But here is how our autospinner spins it:

              Hell, {I've been|I have been} writing articles {long|lengthy} {before|earlier than} Al Gore {thought of|considered} inventing the internet. And {I'm|I am} {old|previous|outdated} and cranky and {just|simply} too {damn|rattling} lazy to spin articles "{right|proper}". I write them {right|proper} {the first|the primary} time and {send|ship} them off to my syndicated {network|community} of over 25,000 {websites|web sites}, blogs, ezine publishers, offline magazines, {trade|commerce} journals and newspapers.

              Writing one or {|two} articles {every|each} {|two}-three weeks for {each|every} {niche|area of interest} generates {a fairly|a reasonably} {consistent|constant} {average|common} of 70,000 {targeted|focused} {visitors|guests} {daily|every day|day by day|each day} of which {48|forty eight},000 {buy|purchase} or subscribe to my lists. {And every|And each} week {I'm|I am} {adding|including} 15-20 new syndicated {outlets|retailers|shops} for my articles. Nothing {I have|I've} seen {so far|thus far|up to now|to date|to this point} can beat that.
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              • Profile picture of the author myob
                Originally Posted by mattlaclear View Post

                Wasn't spinning anything. Was just asking you a question regarding your very definitive statement.

                Edit: I don't know how a respectable spin of your statement would read. But here is how our autospinner spins it:

                Hell, {I've been|I have been} writing articles {long|lengthy} {before|earlier than} Al Gore {thought of|considered} inventing the internet. And {I'm|I am} {old|previous|outdated} and cranky and {just|simply} too {damn|rattling} lazy to spin articles "{right|proper}". I write them {right|proper} {the first|the primary} time and {send|ship} them off to my syndicated {network|community} of over 25,000 {websites|web sites}, blogs, ezine publishers, offline magazines, {trade|commerce} journals and newspapers.

                Writing one or {|two} articles {every|each} {|two}-three weeks for {each|every} {niche|area of interest} generates {a fairly|a reasonably} {consistent|constant} {average|common} of 70,000 {targeted|focused} {visitors|guests} {daily|every day|day by day|each day} of which {48|forty eight},000 {buy|purchase} or subscribe to my lists. {And every|And each} week {I'm|I am} {adding|including} 15-20 new syndicated {outlets|retailers|shops} for my articles. Nothing {I have|I've} seen {so far|thus far|up to now|to date|to this point} can beat that.
                I like to keep things simple. All of my niches are in some of hottest and most fiercely competitive arenas. Generally, tough competition means there's a whole lot of money being made. Huge entrenched budgets are spent in SEO, SERPs ranking, and copywriting. Anyone going up against this kind of competition by spinning articles for backlinks has less than a snowball's chance in hell.

                But getting quality articles accepted by authoritative, context-relevant sites ranking in the top 1-3 for your keyords is better than being there yourself. The marketing model of article syndication provides leveraging your proxy positition across potentially thousands of other websites ranking for thousands of iterations for your long tail keywords or phrases. Quantifying in empirical terms, this results in an average monthly revenue of $5,000-$7,000 for each article I write.
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                • Profile picture of the author mattlaclear
                  Originally Posted by myob View Post

                  I like to keep things simple. All of my niches are in some of hottest and most fiercely competitive arenas. Generally, tough competition means there's a whole lot of money being made. Huge entrenched budgets are spent in SEO, SERPs ranking, and copywriting. Anyone going up against this kind of competition by spinning articles for backlinks has less than a snowball's chance in hell.

                  But getting quality articles accepted by authoritative, context-relevant sites ranking in the top 1-3 for your keyords is better than being there yourself. The marketing model of article syndication provides leveraging your proxy positition across potentially thousands of other websites ranking for thousands of iterations for your long tail keywords or phrases. Quantifying in empirical terms, this results in an average monthly revenue of $5,000-$7,000 for each article I write.
                  We must be one fire resistant snowball because were ranking top 5 for some of the toughest keywords on the Internet. Our gross sales are now nearing the $1M a year mark.

                  At first the argument against our service is that we didn't allow for tough keywords. When that was disproven the argument switched to us not being able to get in the top 3 for tough keywords. Also we get accused of only ranking long tail terms like you just did yourself. Just not true. You can spin yourself to the top position using only autospun plr content.

                  If that is hard for you to swallow then I ask you to hate the game not the player. I only found something that worked well despite what everyone else was teaching on the forum at the time.
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                  • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
                    Banned
                    Originally Posted by mattlaclear View Post

                    At first the argument against our service is that we didn't allow for tough keywords. When that was disproven the argument switched to us not being able to get in the top 3 for tough keywords. Also we get accused of only ranking long tail terms like you just did yourself. Just not true. You can spin yourself to the top position using only autospun plr content.
                    On that exact subject, please excuse the observation - offered with absolutely no hostility at all - that I've really been very surprised how openly people have been promoting the SEO-based services they're selling in this thread. Kingsley, it seems, thinks nothing even of making three consecutive posts in the thread without bothering to disable his sig-file. Surprising to me ... not my business, I admit, but I was just wondering, if you guys want to preserve the thread, whether it might be a good idea to think about perhaps doing that?

                    I'm sure none of it was intentional, of course.
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                    • Profile picture of the author mattlaclear
                      Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

                      On that exact subject, please excuse the observation - offered with absolutely no hostility at all - that I've really been very surprised how openly people have been promoting the SEO-based services they're selling in this thread. Kingsley, it seems, thinks nothing even of making three consecutive posts in the thread without bothering to disable his sig-file. Surprising to me ... not my business, I admit, but I was just wondering, if you guys want to preserve the thread, whether it might be a good idea to think about perhaps doing that?

                      I'm sure none of it was intentional, of course.
                      Disable yours and I'll disable mine.

                      Edit: Done. Now your turn. You're pitching the virtue of quality writing while pimping a sig file pitching that sort of service. Since you brought it up.
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                      • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
                        Banned
                        Originally Posted by mattlaclear View Post

                        You're pitching the virtue of quality writing while pimping a sig file pitching that sort of service.
                        This is wrong.

                        I have no service to offer.

                        I haven't written for anyone for over a year and a half. I get asked by p.m. about twice a day, on average, and always reply the same way, mentioning that I don't take writing clients any more because I'm building my own business exclusively. I'm very fully booked up just with my own work. And there are hundreds of people here who can vouch for that - and nobody who can contradict it, because it's true. And you can judge for yourself that I could hardly say it so openly if there were even one person who could contradict it, can't you?

                        So, Mr. Quick-To-Make-False-Accusations, are you going to be equally quick to offer an apology and retraction now that you know the facts? :confused:
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                        • Profile picture of the author mattlaclear
                          Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

                          This is wrong.

                          I have no service to offer.

                          I haven't written for anyone for over a year and a half. I get asked by p.m. about twice a day, on average, and always reply the same way, mentioning that I don't take writing clients any more because I'm building my own business exclusively. I'm very fully booked up just with my own work. And there are hundreds of people here who can vouch for that - and nobody who can contradict it, because it's true. And you can judge for yourself that I could hardly say it so openly if there were even one person who could contradict it, can't you?

                          So, Mr. Quick-To-Make-False-Accusations, are you going to be equally quick to offer an apology and retraction now that you know the facts? :confused:
                          Just to be clear on this...

                          We are now switching the argument over to sig files? You made a point that we were only posting to pimp our sigs. I'm guess you did so to make diminish the points we were making. Never mind the fact I pay Allen lots of cash to get our message across.

                          But am I clear the argument is no longer about whether to spin or not spin articles?

                          And btw...

                          It has been you all along making the false accusations regarding services such as what we offer.

                          Now that you have admitted you know why we do what we do and that it is effective. Will you apologize?

                          Edit: My wife just came in and said I have to go furniture shopping with her. So I'm out for a bit. Rock on without me Warriors.

                          When I get back we can dive into why the hell a lime isn't a kumquat.
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                          • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
                            Banned
                            Originally Posted by mattlaclear View Post

                            JYou made a point that we were only posting to pimp our sigs.
                            On the contrary, I mentioned specifically that I knew you weren't doing that, but I was concerned that the whole thread might vanish because you'd apparently forgotten to disable your highly relevant sig-files, even - in your case - when you posted specifically about your own service and its testimonials.

                            Then you mistakenly accused me of offering a writing service, which I don't.

                            And now we're waiting to see whether you have the guts to apologise for your mistake and retract it. My guess is that you don't, but (unlike some people around here) I'm willing to be wrong.
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                            • Profile picture of the author mattlaclear
                              Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

                              On the contrary, I mentioned specifically that I knew you weren't doing that, but I was concerned that the whole thread might vanish because you'd apparently forgotten to disable your highly relevant sig-files, even - in your case - when you posted specifically about your own service and its testimonials.

                              Then you mistakenly accused me of offering a writing service, which I don't.

                              And now we're waiting to see whether you have the guts to apologise for your mistake and retract it. My guess is that you don't, but (unlike some people around here) I'm willing to be wrong.
                              Now I'm gutless? Whatever.

                              You have been pretty cool to debate with until you lost the debate.

                              / thread As it is no longer worth my time. Just don't be surprised when folks don't kiss your backside when you go around slamming others business models.

                              This is something you'll learn as you grow a little older and wiser.
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                          • Profile picture of the author Shannon Herod
                            Originally Posted by mattlaclear View Post


                            When I get back we can dive into why the hell a lime isn't a kumquat.
                            Actually, I believe that a lime is a kumquat.
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                            • Profile picture of the author mattlaclear
                              Originally Posted by Shannon Herod View Post

                              Actually, I believe that a line is a kumquat.
                              To be honest I don't know what a kumquat is either. When I tried to spell it the first time it came back looking obscene.

                              Now I'm really out. Wifey is standing over me looking a little too serious.
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                    • Profile picture of the author warriorkay
                      Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

                      On that exact subject, please excuse the observation - offered with absolutely no hostility at all - that I've really been very surprised how openly people have been promoting the SEO-based services they're selling in this thread. Kingsley, it seems, thinks nothing even of making three consecutive posts in the thread without bothering to disable his sig-file. Surprising to me ... not my business, I admit, but I was just wondering, if you guys want to preserve the thread, whether it might be a good idea to think about perhaps doing that?

                      I'm sure none of it was intentional, of course.
                      Com'on now, Alexa, . I didn't need to get into this thread
                      to promote my sig file. I've been EASILY paying $100 to $200
                      daily for my banner ads promoting my article spinning course
                      in here for many days now and get a ton of sales from that.


                      I wonder - seems you have forgotten that my VERY first thread
                      on the issue of "right" article spinning was about 6 months ago, when
                      I wasn't even selling any article spinning course like I am now.

                      You even thanked me in that thread because of what I shared.

                      The thread again?

                      http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...ens-souls.html


                      EDIT - I just checked... the thread was actually 9 months ago,
                      In that thread I talked about perhaps writing a course on "right"
                      article spinning. So, the course actually took 9+ months in the making!

                      Kingsley



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                  • Profile picture of the author myob
                    Originally Posted by mattlaclear View Post

                    We must be one fire resistant snowball because were ranking top 5 for some of the toughest keywords on the Internet. Our gross sales are now nearing the $1M a year mark.

                    At first the argument against our service is that we didn't allow for tough keywords. When that was disproven the argument switched to us not being able to get in the top 3 for tough keywords. Also we get accused of only ranking long tail terms like you just did yourself. Just not true. You can spin yourself to the top position using only autospun plr content.

                    If that is hard for you to swallow then I ask you to hate the game not the player. I only found something that worked well despite what everyone else was teaching on the forum at the time.
                    Matt, you and others promoting article spinning would not survive in this business without selling your services, and I think you realize that. I am just an affiliate marketer, selling non-IM products, not shovels. By comparison, article syndication is my bulldozer - generating about 11 times your shovel-selling revenue. We're both in the same game, but I know far better how it's played.
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                    • Profile picture of the author mattlaclear
                      Originally Posted by myob View Post

                      Matt, you and others promoting article spinning would not survive in this business without selling your services, and I think you realize that. I am just an affiliate marketer, selling non-IM products, not shovels. By comparison, article syndication is my bulldozer - generating about 11 times your shovel-selling revenue. We're both in the same game, but I know far better than most how to play.
                      If you make $11 M a year in article marketing then hats off! But don't assume I don't own any sites of my own. I have been at this game for over a decade and a half after all. We make very good cash off of of those as well. This whole system I designed was to grab page one rankings for my own sites. When it worked really well I decided to open a wso offering the service to other Warriors.

                      Do I sell shovels to folks looking to find gold. You bet I do. I will until the day I retire too. Which is something I will never apologize for. But I would not be able to sell my services as well as we are if we were not producing results for Warriors.

                      But like I just mentioned what you and Alexa do is completely different than what we do. Apples to oranges.

                      Arguing over the fact that an apple isn't an orange is something I'm not prepared to do at this time. It would be fruitless (pardon the pun) to attempt to do so.

                      So what is a common denominator that quality writers have in common with the spinning crowd. I bet we can find some if we look hard enough.

                      Otherwise we'll all be doomed to repeating this discussion over and over every few weeks like we have been.

                      So I'll end my part in it with this:

                      We spin and submit articles solely to create link juice to money sites. You write and submit articles to deliver traffic from article directories over to your money site.

                      End of argument?
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                      • Profile picture of the author warriorkay
                        Originally Posted by mattlaclear View Post

                        If you make $11 M a year in article marketing then hats off! But don't assume I don't own any sites of my own. I have been at this game for over a decade and a half after all. We make very good cash off of of those as well. This whole system I designed was to grab page one rankings for my own sites. When it worked really well I decided to open a wso offering the service to other Warriors.

                        Do I sell shovels to folks looking to find gold. You bet I do. I will until the day I retire too. Which is something I will never apologize for. But I would not be able to sell my services as well as we are if we were not producing results for Warriors.

                        But like I just mentioned what you and Alexa do is completely different than what we do. Apples to oranges.

                        Arguing over the fact that an apple isn't an orange is something I'm not prepared to do at this time. It would be fruitless (pardon the pun) to attempt to do so.

                        So what is a common denominator that quality writers have in common with the spinning crowd. I bet we can find some if we look hard enough.

                        Otherwise we'll all be doomed to repeating this discussion over and over every few weeks like we have been.

                        So I'll end my part in it with this:

                        We spin and submit articles solely to create link juice to money sites. You write and submit articles to deliver traffic from article directories over to your money site.

                        End of argument?

                        Excellently said. It's so funny when people think just
                        because one sells a system they don't make money with
                        the system themselves.

                        Anyway, again, well said, Matt!

                        Kingsley
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                      • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
                        Originally Posted by mattlaclear View Post


                        We spin and submit articles solely to create link juice to money sites. You write and submit articles to deliver traffic from article directories over to your money site.

                        End of argument?
                        Almost but it would be foolish to think you'll get highly targeted traffic from article directories. It can be useful but I prefer to actually seek out ezines and authority sites and recently offline magazines, where my potential customers actually hang around.

                        The trouble with relying on directories alone is you are waiting for articles to get picked up, I much rather seek out a where my potential customers are and go direct to them because they're not by and large looking through directories. In fact I've recently not even been using directories at all and I've not noticed a drop in traffic.

                        As you've quite rightly said though, we're operating from two very different angles. The method I use is very different from yours. I'd also like to clarify that at no point did I say your system, Kingsleys or anyone else's doesn't work.
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        • Profile picture of the author DireStraits
          This thread turned from neutral, to bad, to worse, to atrocious, and now it's just starting to be downright laughable.

          Heyyyy you guyyyssssss....

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          • Profile picture of the author MikeFriedman
            Matt,

            Your proposed challenge wouldn't really settle anything in this dispute.

            SEO results is not the only thing that Alexa, and other marketers like her, are after, although I'm sure they do quite well in their rankings. They also get direct traffic (and I would bet quite a bit of it) from the articles that get syndicated on other webmaster's sites.

            In other words, Alexa's model brings in a lot of income that has nothing to do with her rankings in the search engines. Her model is casting a bigger net seeking out buyers, rather than relying on just search engines to bring in traffic.
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            • Profile picture of the author warriorkay
              Originally Posted by MikeFriedman View Post

              SEO results is not the only thing that Alexa, and other marketers like her, are after, although I'm sure they do quite well in their rankings. They also get direct traffic (and I would bet quite a bit of it) from the articles that get syndicated on other webmaster's sites.

              In other words, Alexa's model brings in a lot of income that has nothing to do with her rankings in the search engines. Her model is casting a bigger net seeking out buyers, rather than relying on just search engines to bring in traffic.

              Then let everyone do what works for them, without condemning
              what works for other people, without EMPIRICAL evidence to
              show it doesn't work.
              That's the point I have been trying to pass
              across all day. Is it so hard to accept,

              To say that those in support of article spinning are supporting it because
              they sell spinners or articles is just plain silly... and childish!

              Kingsley

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              • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
                Originally Posted by warriorkay View Post

                Then let everyone do what works for them, without condemning
                what works for other people, without EMPIRICAL evidence to
                show it doesn't work. That's the point I have been trying to pass
                across all day. Is it so hard to accept,

                To say that those in support of article spinning are supporting it because
                they sell spinners or articles is just plain silly... and childish!

                Kingsley

                .
                Kingsley, even if a fair test could be designed (and Matt's comes close), it would only 'prove' that one side or the other was right in that test. And we wouldn't be any closer to a definitive answer than we are now. We'd have an interesting bit of anecdotal evidence to discuss, but not more.

                For real empirical evidence, we'd need to repeat the test under controlled conditions enough times to establish statistical significance.

                "To say that those in support of article spinning are supporting it because
                they sell spinners or articles is just plain silly... and childish!"

                Actually, no. Incomplete, maybe. Unless the purveyors of spinners/articles are complete charlatans (not a category I associate with you, Matt or Shannon), there have to be some results or the service would fold. I've a feeling that without the commercial incentive, or the urge to protect that which pays the bills, your defenses would be much less vigorous. Only human nature...

                At the risk of playing pot to your kettle, calling someone silly and childish because they don't acquiesce to your opinions is, well, silly and childish...
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                • Profile picture of the author warriorkay
                  Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe View Post

                  At the risk of playing pot to your kettle, calling someone silly and childish because they don't acquiesce to your opinions is, well, silly and childish...
                  Please don't say what is not. I didn't call anyone silly and
                  childish because they don't agree with my opinions...

                  What I said is simple...

                  Then let everyone do what works for them, without condemning
                  what works for other people, without EMPIRICAL evidence to
                  show it doesn't work. That's the point I have been trying to pass
                  across all day. Is it so hard to accept,

                  To say that those in support of article spinning are supporting it because
                  they sell spinners or articles is just plain silly... and childish!


                  Again, I am having fun here and am not taking anything personal,


                  Kingsley

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                  • Profile picture of the author mattlaclear
                    Originally Posted by warriorkay View Post

                    Please don't say what is not. I didn't call anyone silly and
                    childish because they don't agree with my opinions...

                    What I said is simple...

                    Then let everyone do what works for them, without condemning
                    what works for other people, without EMPIRICAL evidence to
                    show it doesn't work. That's the point I have been trying to pass
                    across all day. Is it so hard to accept,

                    To say that those in support of article spinning are supporting it because
                    they sell spinners or articles is just plain silly... and childish!


                    Again, I am having fun here and am not taking anything personal,


                    Kingsley

                    .
                    Think of the rift between the different factions on this thread like this:

                    Would Ernest Hemingway agree to spin his stories for publication if he were still around? Of course not he was an artist who cared about his art.

                    Would PT Barnum resort to autospun backlinking if it generated more ticket sales for him?

                    You bet your sweet behind he would.

                    Hemingway was an artist. Barnum was a promoter.

                    Quality Article Marketers have learned how to be both to some degree. While the PT Barnums could give a hoot about artistry.

                    So we have two different schools of thought clashing here.

                    Are you Hemingway with what you do or do you see things like PT would of?

                    That's why the two sides clash on this particular topic.
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              • Profile picture of the author MikeFriedman
                Originally Posted by warriorkay View Post

                To say that those in support of article spinning are supporting it because
                they sell spinners or articles is just plain silly... and childish!.

                I don't know. I can kind of see a point to it. Not saying it is true or not in this particular case, but...

                I originally started shopping at Best Buy over Circuit City because the employees at Best Buy were only paid hourly, but the employees at Circuit City (at that time. They later changed the policy) were paid a commission on top of their hourly wages. I trusted the advice I was receiving from the people at Best Buy when I had questions about purchasing a new television over the advice I received at Circuit City. They had something to gain at Circuit City by me not only purchasing from them, but also by selling me a higher priced model, whether that higher priced item suited my needs or not.

                I feel more comfortable talking to salespeople at CarMax (no commission) versus the salespeople at a Honda car dealership.

                So yeah, I can kind of understand someone arguing that those who have something to gain directly from their point of view in an argument might be making their argument from a point of bias.

                What's that line near the end of the movie Devil's Advocate? "Consider the source, Son."

                Again, I'm not saying that is or isn't the case in this argument, but doing so is neither silly nor childish.
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          • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
            Banned
            Originally Posted by warriorkay View Post

            I am referring to those who have NOT done any TESTS but are willing to happily condemn a system and those who do it
            I think we all agree about those people, don't we?

            (It does often strike me, during such discussions, that there are actually quite a lot of things about which we all agree, however much these discussions tend to draw attention to the other things.)

            From what I know (which - as is true for all of us - is obviously partial and may not necessarily be representative of "the forum in general"), I can't actually think of any people I know who are using the same sort of model of article marketing that I do who didn't adopt it after at least some kind of testing, which they did - as I did - only when it became so clear that spinning and mass submission wasn't working for them.

            As so many of us have commented in so many threads, the striking thing is the way that people switching (as many do - as I did myself) from one method to another, are not switching back.

            This, I admit, isn't "adding much", because we all know that all the threads started off by people with titles like "Article Marketing Is Dead" and "Article Marketing Doesn't Work Any More" are referring to a model of "article marketing" which revolves around using article directories and or blog networks, typically in conjunction with spinning and/or automated submissions, for their own backlinks. In other words, an SEO-based approach which (it's clear from their collective threads) has served them badly - which is why they're starting all those threads, as they so openly explain.

            Article marketing, to those of us making a living and building successful businesses from it, rather than from selling things to new participants in it, has comparatively little to do with SEO. So it's kind of amusing - albeit in a macabre sort of way - that anyone could dream up a way of trying to monitor anything much about article marketing in SEO terms. But unsurprising, of course, that both the suggestion itself and its eager adoption should come from those promoting SEO-based products/services.

            Originally Posted by DireStraits View Post

            now it's just starting to be downright laughable.
            Well ... it does have its grotesque side, if that's what you mean. But to be fair to the guys, at least they're not trying to conceal the all-too-obvious incentive behind what they're trying to do.

            Call me young (Shannon does) and idealistic, but for myself, it still disappoints me that people can read threads like this and come away with the impression that article marketing is necessarily "SEO-based".

            Expect another few hundred of those "Is Article Marketing Dead?" threads in 6 months' time. Nothing new there, then.
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            • Profile picture of the author warriorkay
              Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

              Call me young (Shannon does) and idealistic, but for myself, it still disappoints me that people can read threads like this and come away with the impression that article marketing is necessarily "SEO-based".
              Why do you not care to listen to other people's opinions
              that differ from yours, Alexa?

              Perhaps that's why Shannon refers to your age...

              But like I said earlier...

              In response to what you just said... what better response
              can I give than what has already been said, thus:


              Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post


              Alexa,

              Would you be so kind as to stop with the artificial dichotomy silliness? Article marketing is a superset that includes both of the techniques you refer to in your usual discourses on the subject.

              The primary approaches of each are different. One looks to generate traffic through better rankings in the SERPs, while the other looks to create traffic and authority through the quality of the content. But they both involve marketing through the use of short content pieces, commonly called "articles." And they overlap in significant ways when done correctly.

              Different roads to Rome.


              Paul
              That's not mine, by the way, that's Paul Myers, ...
              but the emphasis are mine,

              Or do you profess to KNOW more than Paul, Alexa?

              Or Paul is also selling shovels, rather than digging successfully?

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              • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
                Banned
                Originally Posted by warriorkay View Post

                Or do you profess to KNOW more than Paul, Alexa?
                Far from it, and I value his opinions highly, Kingsley.

                I saw no reason to drag him into this conversation, and I tried ignoring you the first time you did so, but if you're going to keep repeating it, shall we see what he said about "spinning"?

                Unlike you, I won't fiddle about with the emphasis to suit my own purposes, I'll just paste it in from here, exactly as he expressed it ...

                Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                I hate article spinners. I hate what they produce, I hate what they represent, and I'm not at all fond of the fact that many of their users are also thieves, stealing the work of people who actually create something useful and original.

                Yeah, yeah. I know. "The way I do it is different." If so, good for you. You're just stuck in a game that's going to end up a losing bet. The fact remains that most spinners and most people using them churn out nothing but garbage, which they then spew across the web, screwing things up for sites and searchers, and adding no value at all to the digital environment.
                As I said at the time, I agree with him.

                Sorry about that.
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                • Profile picture of the author warriorkay
                  Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

                  Far from it, and I value his opinions highly, Kingsley.

                  I saw no reason to drag him into this conversation, and I tried ignoring you the first time you did so, but if you're going to keep repeating it, shall we see what he said about "spinning"?

                  Unlike you, I won't fiddle about with the emphasis to suit my own purposes, I'll just paste it in from here, exactly as he expressed it ...

                  As I said at the time, I agree with him.

                  Sorry about that.

                  Thanks for making my point with the quote from Paul.

                  I have said it repeatedly, especially in my article spinning
                  course that I do "right" article spinning without even
                  touching an article spinner. I am not doing automated
                  article spinning. Or did you intentionally miss that part?

                  Paul was referring to article spinners (software).

                  The full quote?


                  Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                  Here is a classic example of doing this really, really badly, and why you ought to be careful of who you ask for reviews. I just got a request from a new member to review his ... wait for it ... article spinner.

                  Could you possibly demonstrate any worse targeting in your requests? I hate article spinners. I hate what they produce, I hate what they represent, and I'm not at all fond of the fact that many of their users are also thieves, stealing the work of people who actually create something useful and original.

                  Yeah, yeah. I know. "The way I do it is different." If so, good for you. You're just stuck in a game that's going to end up a losing bet. The fact remains that most spinners and most people using them churn out nothing but garbage, which they then spew across the web, screwing things up for sites and searchers, and adding no value at all to the digital environment.

                  And this dude wants me to review his product?

                  I should have said yes, just so I could post my thoughts in his WSO thread.


                  Paul

                  Kingsley

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                  • Profile picture of the author mattlaclear
                    Originally Posted by warriorkay View Post

                    Thanks for making my point with the quote from Paul.

                    I have said it repeatedly, especially in my article spinning
                    course that I do "right" article spinning without even
                    touching an article spinner. I am not doing automated
                    article spinning. Or did you intentionally miss that part?

                    Paul was referring to article spinners (software).

                    The full quote?

                    Kingsley

                    .
                    The fact Paul Meyers thinks of those who use spinners as tantamount to thievery is something he has every right to believe. Though I do not follow his logic on that at all.

                    Does it mean he thinks I'm a thief too? That would suck. But like I said he is entitled to his opinion.
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                    • Profile picture of the author warriorkay
                      Originally Posted by mattlaclear View Post

                      The fact Paul Meyers thinks of those who use spinners as tantamount to thievery is something he has every right to believe. Though I do not follow his logic on that at all.

                      Does it mean he thinks I'm a thief too? That would suck. But like I said he is entitled to his opinion.
                      Read the full post, He was particular about those who go
                      to directories or other people's sites to STEAL their articles
                      and then use an automated article spinner to spin the articles!
                      Of course such actions are indeed tantamount to thievery!

                      But YOU, Matt, use PLR articles, you have said and you submit
                      the spun versions to YOUR network of blogs.

                      Kingsley

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                      • Profile picture of the author mattlaclear
                        Originally Posted by warriorkay View Post

                        Read the full post, He was particular about those who go
                        to directories or other people's sites to STEAL their articles
                        and then use an automated article spinner to spin the articles!
                        Of course such actions are indeed tantamount to thievery!

                        But YOU, Matt, use PLR articles, you have said and you submit
                        the spun versions to YOUR network of blogs.

                        Kingsley

                        .
                        Yeah I just did reread it. I guess I can put him back on my Christmas card list. He was very close to missing out on seeing a pic of my family and pets wearing dorky sweaters and plastic smiles come December.

                        But...

                        Why would people want to steal articles when they can buy plr for dirty cheap? You can literally buy 25k of plr articles for under $20.

                        That's almost on par with stealing water or breathable air. You can do it but why???
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            • Profile picture of the author Shannon Herod
              Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post


              This, I admit, isn't "adding much", because we all know that all the threads started off by people with titles like "Article Marketing Is Dead" and "Article Marketing Doesn't Work Any More" are referring to a model of "article marketing" which revolves around using article directories and or blog networks, typically in conjunction with spinning and/or automated submissions, for their own backlinks. In other words, an SEO-based approach which (it's clear from their collective threads) has served them badly - which is why they're starting all those threads, as they so openly explain.

              Article marketing, to those of us making a living and building successful businesses from it, rather than from selling things to new participants in it, has comparatively little to do with SEO. So it's kind of amusing - albeit in a macabre sort of way - that anyone could dream up a way of trying to monitor anything much about article marketing in SEO terms. But unsurprising, of course, that both the suggestion itself and its eager adoption should come from those promoting SEO-based products/services.

              You are actually very wrong. The people that start the threads "article marketing is dead" and things of that nature are doing so because they used article marketing as a filtration device.

              Let me explain...

              These marketers relied on the authority of the article directories to get them traffic. They would write a keyword optimized article and submit it to the directory. They would then use the authority that Google has given the directory to rank the that longtail keyword in the search engines.

              They then would filter that traffic to their websites through their link in their signature or bio box.

              That method I just described above is dead. Considering how article directories lost 90% or more of their traffic in the latest Google update.

              On the other hand, people like me who use article directories for SEO purposes have seen a gain in their traffic. This is true in many accounts. Which brings me to your next little quote…



              Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

              Well ... it does have its grotesque side, if that's what you mean. But to be fair to the guys, at least they're not trying to conceal the all-too-obvious incentive behind what they're trying to do.

              Call me young (Shannon does) and idealistic, but for myself, it still disappoints me that people can read threads like this and come away with the impression that article marketing is necessarily "SEO-based".

              Expect another few hundred of those "Is Article Marketing Dead?" threads in 6 months' time. Nothing new there, then.
              I do not point out your age because you are young. I Point it out because of your lack of experience, and your immaturity.

              You refuse to believe anything works except your way of doing it. And when someone disagrees with you, you use your penmanship to lash out at them and attempt to make them look stupid.

              Also, I have built my business around article marketing. SEO based article marketing.

              My article service is less than a week old. So, I have been making more money than most people can fathom for years before I even considered providing this resource.

              So your assumption that I am on this side of the fence because I sell a service is very wrong.

              Plus, you keep referring to yourself as a marketer who earns a "real" living from building a "real" article marketing business. Well, one could argue that your "real" business could die a pretty quick death if anything ever happens "clickbank" or the other affiliate networks you rely on to provide income for your business.

              So quit referring to us as people that do not have "real businesses". Because I assure you my business has withstood the test of time and is growing each and every day.

              So, If you are such an SEO expert lets do this...

              You pick the keyword and lets rank it. 60 days later we will see who ranks better. I already know the results, but lets do it.

              You pick the keyword, and I will even let you use an aged domain that already has authority. After 60 days, I will beat you though.

              Shannon


              Now that we know your stance on SEO this challenge is closed and there is no reason for me to continue this debate. You obviously are building your case on opinion and not testing.

              Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

              Why would I be interested in "who ranks better"?! :confused:

              I'm an article marketer.

              I care about building my business, producing increasing residual monthly income from the work I've done.

              I don't give a toss "who ranks better"
              .

              That has nothing to do with the kind of successful article marketing to which so many people are now switching with such relief and enthusiasm.
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              • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
                Banned
                Originally Posted by Shannon Herod View Post

                You pick the keyword and lets rank it. 60 days later we will see who ranks better.
                Why would I be interested in "who ranks better"?! :confused:

                I'm an article marketer.

                I care about building my business, producing increasing residual monthly income from the work I've done.

                I don't give a toss "who ranks better"
                .

                That has nothing to do with the kind of successful article marketing to which so many people are now switching with such relief and enthusiasm.
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                • Profile picture of the author Shannon Herod
                  Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

                  Why would I be interested in "who ranks better"?! :confused:

                  I'm an article marketer.

                  I care about building my business, producing increasing residual monthly income from the work I've done.

                  I don't give a toss "who ranks better"
                  .

                  That has nothing to do with the kind of successful article marketing to which so many people are now switching with such relief and enthusiasm.
                  Here is the thing, your whole argument is that article marketing for SEO is not a reasonable form of article marketing.

                  Then, you will publicly admit that you do not care about SEO. I.E who ranks better.

                  So Alexa, if you have no interest in SEO how can you possibly argue that article marketing for SEO is not a valid form of article marketing?

                  You see you are basing you stance on this subject based on opinion. I am basing my stance based on years of testing.
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                  • Profile picture of the author warriorkay
                    Originally Posted by Shannon Herod View Post

                    Here is the thing, your whole argument is that article marketing for SEO is not a reasonable form of article marketing.

                    Then, you will publicly admit that you do not care about SEO. I.E who ranks better.

                    So Alexa, if you have no interest in SEO how can you possibly argue that article marketing for SEO is not a valid form of article marketing?

                    You see you are basing you stance on this subject based on opinion. I am basing my stance based on years of testing.

                    I think I can safely REST MY CASE here now. Clearly, she hasn't
                    done article marketing for SEO benefits, then why say it's a waste
                    of time and advice others NOT to do it?!

                    Again... my previous statement comes in...

                    Then let everyone do what works for them, without condemning
                    what works for other people, without EMPIRICAL evidence to
                    show it doesn't work. That's the point I have been trying to pass
                    across all day. Is it so hard to accept,

                    To say that those in support of article spinning are supporting it because
                    they sell spinners or articles is just plain silly... and childish!


                    Kingsley

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      • Profile picture of the author Shannon Herod
        Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

        Oops - there you go showing your age yet again!
        Not an oops... very deliberate.

        It is not about age, it is about experience. I have tried and failed more than my post count. And as the great Jordan said... "I have failed over and over and over again, and that is why I succeed."

        So let me point this out again for you. It is not about age, it is about experience.

        Shannon
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  • Profile picture of the author warriorkay
    See, Matt... I already told you...

    I have carried out such tests in the past, Matt and I KNOW
    what results I have achieved. The trouble is that those who
    are against article spinning here will, mostly, NOT believe,
    even if you show them your results. That's why I would have
    preferred if such haters of article spinning get involved in this
    challenge - let them do their thing and we do our thing... at
    the end of the day let's see whose give more SEO benefit!!!


    So, if none of the haters of article spinning are willing to get
    involved in this challenge, I'd say save yourself the trouble, Matt!

    Kingsley

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  • Profile picture of the author warriorkay
    .
    Again, why is Alexa running away from the challenge??!!

    If you believe that strongly in what you say, let's get it
    on... and save ourselves all these back and forth debates!

    Kingsley

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    • Profile picture of the author MikeFriedman
      Originally Posted by warriorkay View Post

      .
      Again, why is Alexa running away from the challenge??!!

      If you believe that strongly in what you say, let's get it
      on... and save ourselves all these back and forth debates!

      Kingsley

      .

      I don't think Alexa is running from a challenge. The challenge presented proves nothing. And if she is "running" from the challenge, it is probably just because she is more mature, even at a younger age, than most of us, and is instead using her time to focus on things that matter (like growing her business).

      Alexa's business model relies on more than just rankings. To base any kind of a challenge on just ranking results is just flat out ignoring a large segment of the plan that Alexa's model derives results from.
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      • Profile picture of the author Shannon Herod
        Originally Posted by MikeFriedman View Post

        I don't think Alexa is running from a challenge. The challenge presented proves nothing. And if she is "running" from the challenge, it is probably just because she is more mature, even at a younger age, than most of us, and is instead using her time to focus on things that matter (like growing her business).

        Alexa's business model relies on more than just rankings. To base any kind of a challenge on just ranking results is just flat out ignoring a large segment of the plan that Alexa's model derives results from.
        Here is the thing, Alexa's whole argument is that Article Marketing for SEO purposes is not a valid form of article marketing.

        Then openly admits that she "does not give a toss" So, I think her reply is valid enough proof to dismiss her "opinions" not facts on the subject.

        Shannon

        [EDIT] The vast majority of here argument is article marketing for SEO purposes is not a valid form of article marketing. The other small percentage, which is article spinners produce crap content I agree with. Humans rewriting the article variations is the valid way to spin[/edit]
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        • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
          Banned
          Originally Posted by Shannon Herod View Post

          Alexa's whole argument is that Article Marketing for SEO purposes is not a valid form of article marketing.
          That just isn't my whole argument at all.

          You may fool yourself into believing that, but as you can see from 1,000 other threads, you're not fooling many article marketers into believing it.

          Originally Posted by mattlaclear View Post

          We're in it for page one rankings.
          I accept this.

          I'm not going to apologise for being in it to pay money into the bank, myself.

          I do actually have plenty of top-position rankings on Google (not for keywords like "make money online", obviously), and I admit I've achieved them more slowly than you might, through having my articles voluntarily syndicated by people who wanted to share my work with their already-targeted audiences, so I'm not dependent on my rankings to produce most of my income.

          More comes from getting high quality writing in front of highly targeted traffic (that's what article marketing's mostly about) than from depending only on SEO.

          My resulting SEO, beneficial though it can be, is largely a side-effect ... albeit a very successful one ... it's just not the "be all and end all" of my business, which (fortunately) has a far broader base than just the parameters you're talking about measuring, as if they're all that matter.

          No secret there, though: the board's covered in threads from people who've been experiencing many of those non-SEO benefits for thesmeves.
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          • Profile picture of the author Shannon Herod
            Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

            I'm not going to apologise for being in it to pay money into the bank, myself.
            Want to compare?
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            • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
              Banned
              Originally Posted by Shannon Herod View Post

              Want to compare?
              Nah ... you're too old for me.

              I've been building up my income this way for only 2.5 years. I wasn't building it up in the stone ages. I'd expect your income to be far higher than mine. I've never denied that selling shovels is a profitable business, and I congratulate you on it.

              It's interesting, though, judging by other threads, how many Warriors have struggled for a year or two (or sometimes more) with spinning and/or auto-submission, "switched models" and reaped the benefits of having done so pretty quickly, by comparison.

              It interests me, anyway. Perhaps less so yourself.

              Originally Posted by Shannon Herod View Post

              I do that too. Except I call it guest posting and it produces much faster results than article marketing. Again, based on testing, not opinion.
              That's one of the (many, I suspect) things about which we agree. I do some of this, also. Again, I get targeted traffic, opt-ins and sales from it.
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              • Profile picture of the author Shannon Herod
                Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

                I've never denied that selling shovels is a profitable business, and I congratulate you on it.
                Let me point this out one more time for you... The vast majority of my business comes form working in the trenches. Only a small portion of my overall income comes from "selling shovels" in the IM niche In fact I have paid you commission before. Well, clickbank did

                Shannon
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          • Profile picture of the author Shannon Herod
            Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

            through having my articles voluntarily syndicated by people who wanted to share my work with their already-targeted audiences, so I'm not dependent on my rankings to produce most of my income. More comes from getting high quality writing in front of highly targeted traffic (that's what article marketing's mostly about) than from depending only on SEO.

            No secret there.
            I do that too. Except I call it guest posting and it produces much faster results than article marketing. Again, based on testing, not opinion.

            Shannon
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        • Profile picture of the author warriorkay
          Originally Posted by Shannon Herod View Post

          Here is the thing, Alexa's whole argument is that Article Marketing for SEO purposes is not a valid form of article marketing.

          Then openly admits that she "does not give a toss" So, I think her reply is valid enough proof to dismiss her "opinions" not facts on the subject.

          Shannon

          Thanks for rephrasing that. Perhaps it's more understandable now.

          No one, let alone me, would have spent time to talk about this if
          Alexa didn't insinuate (as she has done a gazillion times in other posts)
          that article marketing for SEO purposes is not a valid form of
          article marketing!!!


          That's the freaking point!!!

          There... I let it out,

          Kingsley

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          • Profile picture of the author mattlaclear
            Originally Posted by warriorkay View Post

            Thanks for rephrasing that. Perhaps it's more understandable now.

            No one, let alone me, would have spent time to talk about this if
            Alexa didn't insinuate (as she has done a gazillion times in other posts)
            that article marketing for SEO purposes is not a valid form of
            article marketing!!!


            That's the freaking point!!!

            There... I let it out,

            Kingsley

            .
            I think we finally settled this debate once and for all. Agreed?
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            • Profile picture of the author warriorkay
              Originally Posted by mattlaclear View Post

              I think we finally settled this debate once and for all. Agreed?
              Indeed, Matt... and like Alexa, I will set an alert for any article
              spinning, duplicate content, article marketing related new thread
              that comes up here and be quick to jump in and refer to this
              thread... IF she goes ahead to say article marketing for SEO
              benefits is rubbish!

              I would... but sadly I am way busy banking IN the money from
              my article marketing for SEO using "right" article spinning,

              Gosh, how do you guys manage to keep up with such threads?
              I have spent MANY hours in here already... with undone tasks
              waiting for me to do,

              Kingsley

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              • Profile picture of the author Shannon Herod
                Originally Posted by warriorkay View Post

                Gosh, how do you guys manage to keep up with such threads?
                I have spent MANY hours in here already... with undone tasks
                waiting for me to do,

                Kingsley

                .
                I agree, this is the most I have ever replied to one thread in the 6 years I have been here. However, I just get heated when someone bashes me and my business models.
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                • Profile picture of the author warriorkay
                  Originally Posted by Shannon Herod View Post

                  I agree, this is the most I have ever replied to one thread in the 6 years I have been here. However, I just get heated when someone bashes me and my business models.
                  Exactly... especially when your business models give you the
                  results you want and make you smile to the bank all the time,

                  You have no idea how long I have swallowed such debates and
                  let them be, even though I know better. But like I said in the
                  beginning of this discourse, it's time to speak up!

                  Edmund Burke once said: "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing"

                  Thankfully however, there's no evil been done in here and there
                  are no good men being talked about here... but there's
                  "misinformation" going on here and those who KNOW, from
                  their experiences need to TALK or the misinformation will just
                  go on. I am concerned because many new warriors and those who
                  don't know will simply accept the misinformation as TRUE and
                  waste time and money trying to implement what they have learned.

                  Many people look up to this forum and up to us Warriors, as the
                  source of genuine information, based on what WORKS for us, not
                  theory. I feel if we continue this way... and continue to mislead
                  others, intentionally or otherwise, they will eventually find out
                  and hate us; and hate the forum as well, after wasting time
                  and money!


                  Kingsley

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    • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
      Banned
      Originally Posted by warriorkay View Post

      .Again, why is Alexa running away from the challenge??!!
      I'm not "running away from a challenge".

      I'm dismissing it as the irrelevance it is.

      The "challenge", as you call it, is irrelevant to any of the contentions of successful article marketers and revolves around defining (and monitoring) article marketing solely and purely in SEO terms.

      I recognise entirely that that perspective, fundamentally flawed though it is, is suitable to a few members here who are selling spinning/submission services.

      However, it has very little to do with the frame of reference of those of us who are "gold-diggers" earning our livings and building up our asset-based residual income businesses as article marketers rather than that of a few of you who are "selling shovels" (promoting services based on spinning and/or mass-submission).

      It's just not relevant to what I - and so many others, and increasingly so - have been saying for so long.

      Originally Posted by MikeFriedman View Post

      To base any kind of a challenge on just ranking results is just flat out ignoring a large segment of the plan that Alexa's model derives results from.
      This. Exactly.

      Originally Posted by MikeFriedman View Post

      I don't think Alexa is running from a challenge.
      Clearly I'm not.

      But for obvious reasons, you won't stop people whose financial interests involve selling these SEO-based services from pretending that "article marketing" in itself is inherently "SEO-based". :rolleyes:
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      • Profile picture of the author mattlaclear
        Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

        I'm not "running away from a challenge".

        I'm dismissing it as the irrelevance it is.

        The "challenge", as you call it, is irrelevant to any of the contentions of successful article marketers and revolves around defining (and monitoring) article marketing solely and purely in SEO terms.

        I recognise entirely that that perspective, fundamentally flawed though it is, is suitable to a few members here who are selling spinning/submission services.

        However, it has very little to do with the frame of reference of those of us who are "gold-diggers" earning our livings and building up our asset-based residual income businesses as article marketers rather than that of a few of you who are "selling shovels" (promoting services based on spinning and/or mass-submission).

        It's just not relevant to what I - and so many others, and increasingly so - have been saying for so long.

        This. Exactly.
        So why do we bother debating this issue on threads like this anymore? You obviously are in it to for artistry purposes. If you're into polishing pennies then good for you. We're in it for page one rankings. If you don't like the smell of our bait you can kindly keep it to yourself.
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        • Profile picture of the author warriorkay
          Originally Posted by mattlaclear View Post

          So why do we bother debating this issue on threads like this anymore? You obviously are in it to for artistry purposes. If you're into polishing pennies then good for you. We're in it for page one rankings. If you don't like the smell of our bait you can kindly keep it to yourself.
          ... and REFRAIN from telling other people that what you don't
          know and haven't EVER tried, doesn't work!

          Kingsley

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      • Profile picture of the author Shannon Herod
        Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

        I'm not "running away from a challenge".
        The "challenge", as you call it, is irrelevant to any of the contentions of successful article marketers and revolves around defining (and monitoring) article marketing solely and purely in SEO terms.
        Here is were you really go off board and become insulting...

        I am a very successful Article marketer. I just do it differently. Also, Go back to the last time I stood up for spinning and look at if I was selling a service then.

        You are blinded by your opinions, not facts, and are very rude as well.

        Go back and read the thread. Not one of us bashed your method, nor did we imply that your way is not a valid business model as you have done repeatedly through this thread.

        Again, I point out your age not because you are young, but because of the immaturity.
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        • Profile picture of the author Spartacus
          Well, this thread took an interesting turn.

          Go on...

          I'm also interested in the results of the mentioned tests, even though it doesn't prove anything to certain people, I just like to see.....the results.
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  • Profile picture of the author warriorkay
    Originally Posted by Chris Kent View Post

    Kingsley is right. Spun articles have more value than the same article syndicated all over the place.

    The idea that the dupe content penalty only applies on your own site and not elsewhere is not borne out in my experience.

    If you have a site that is full of content already appearing elsewhere (e.g. PLR content that's been out for months) then good luck getting any SE traffic at all.

    On the other hand, PLR subscribers know that if they quickly publish newly released content and get a head start on everyone else then they can seize the lion's share of Google traffic going to those articles.

    The exceptions that I've found to these rules are the real keyword "gold". Phrases that are highly searched but barely represented on the internet. With these, you can use a 100% copy article and rank well for it because google is gagging to show your content in the results because it is starved of anything relevant.

    I've also found that sites that are 90% unique and 10% already published elsewhere are fine. But, again, if you try to make your site 100% full of articles already published elsewhere then unless it is ultra-gold keywords then good luck getting SE traffic.

    Alexa, I know you are steadfast on your Google dupe content theory but I have to disagree with you, it is not borne out by my own experience. And hence why spun distributed content has an advantage over content that is unchanged and distributed.

    Here goes another "article spinner" trying to sell his wares...

    Oh, there's no article spinner or spinning product in your sig?

    Kingsley
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    • Profile picture of the author cypherslock
      Originally Posted by Chris Kent View Post

      lol, I am not a fan of spinning especially. I do think they can be highly readable (I was one of the first to do great manual spinning and I never use synonym replacement) but I feel that what is spun is always going to be slightly inferior (though still highly readable) to the original in terms of trying to get a conversion and leading the prospect. This doesn't detract from SEO or backlink value though, of course.

      I am still waiting for someone to provide a total service of writing the article (or taking one of mine), spinning to a high standard and then distributing via several article distribution services. There is always at least one failing: be it too expensive to get a good ROI or only uses one service or poor English. Please someone do it properly, you can make a killing! I'd do it myself but I find spinning done well to be incredibly tedious.

      I know that some spinning fans have said in the past on here that the main advantage is that articles get more easily picked up by site owners because they think prefer stuff that hasn't been pasted everywhere but I seriously doubt that this really concerns the average site owner who is using such content. I think simple automated distribution is good enough.
      I do everything you've just described. I learned awhile ago that if you want to do it truly correctly, manually is the best way. SpinChimp will do the {|} but I rewrite paragraph/sentence/word. And the results are fully readable. Would I want to do it for 500 + articles? no, I'd go nuts, but there is still a place for this. The problem is, many want this stuff instantly and are willing to sacrifice quality. Or are too "budget conscious" to get it done properly.
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  • Profile picture of the author mattlaclear
    So should we still do the tests? I'm game. Would be a great learning experience to say the least for all of us interested in SEO rankings. You could feasibly purchase a well wriiten article for under $10. Then mass syndicate it to a blog network. If it works at egnerating a decent amount of juice I'll start offering that service as well.

    I'm not married to any one way of marketing. If it works I continue using it. If it doesn't I move on.

    But as far as test goes it should be pretty informative.
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    • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
      Banned
      Originally Posted by warriorkay View Post

      I have spent MANY hours in here already... with undone tasks waiting for me to do, .
      Yes - that's another of the things I think we all agree about.

      Originally Posted by mattlaclear View Post

      as far as test goes it should be pretty informative.
      I think we agree about that point, too, though we don't agree about what subject it'll say something about and the extent of its relevance to article marketing.

      I recognise, of course, that it'll provide you with something helpful for selling SEO-based services, because that's how it's been devised, but those monitoring-parameters obviously have very limited relevance to article marketers taking the broader perspective of getting high quality articles in front of highly traffic, with some slower-moving but very powerful SEO benefits arising from having done so.
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      • Profile picture of the author warriorkay
        Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

        Yes - that's another of the things I think we all agree about.


        It's not a bad thing to disagree, Alexa. You have made many
        good posts in this forum and I have thanked you for some. I have
        also made good posts and you indeed thanked me for some. You
        are one of those in my friends' list in here because we obviously
        agreed about the same things in the past.

        The fact that we disagree on this particular subject matter doesn't
        mean we should break our friendship. What irked me was how you
        seem to vigorously insist that article marketing for SEO benefits
        was a waste of time. And if you look through the thread I tried,
        very hard, to NOT refer to you but to stick to the facts on ground.

        Anyway, again, it's not a bad thing to disagree or to agree to
        disagree, to be able to agree later on,

        Now, can we get back to the main tasks that put money on the
        table for us,

        Kingsley

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  • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
    Originally Posted by Chris Kent View Post

    To be fair here, I think there has been some major ganging up on Alexa which needs cooling down now, let's not turn Warrior Forum into a nasty place.
    So let's all be friends now, m'kay?
    I agree, I've been thinking it's all been a bit nauseating watching three grown men trying to bash a 21 year old girl.

    I know Shannon thinks Alexa is rude but I can assure you I've seen quite a lot of rudeness in this thread.
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    • Profile picture of the author Shannon Herod
      Originally Posted by Richard Van View Post

      I agree, I've been thinking it's all been a bit nauseating watching three grown men trying to bash a 21 year old girl.

      I know Shannon thinks Alexa is rude but I can assure you I've seen quite a lot of rudeness in this thread.
      Not once did we bash a 21 year old girl. It was quite the opposite. The 21 year old girl was bashing us and our business models over and over again. We were simply replying to her attempts to making what we do look bad.

      The difference is she is a master penman, and one I could only wish to be as good as. So here lashings were more subtle and meant to hit the subconscious.

      She is smart and you can tell just from reading one paragraph. That, however, does not give here the right to refer to us and our business models in an unprofessional and insulting way.
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    • Profile picture of the author mattlaclear
      Originally Posted by Richard Van View Post

      I agree, I've been thinking it's all been a bit nauseating watching three grown men trying to bash a 21 year old girl.

      I know Shannon thinks Alexa is rude but I can assure you I've seen quite a lot of rudeness in this thread.
      She became more than a 21 year old girl when she joined the Warrior Forum. The fact we are debating with her is a tribute to that fact. You attempt to lessen her with such statements. She knows why we're calling her out. She has been subtly slamming our business models for months now. We'd be less than Warriors ourselves if we didn't share our exact opinions on the matter. If that seems offensive to you then I don't know what to tell you.
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      • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
        Originally Posted by mattlaclear View Post

        You attempt to lessen her with such statements.
        I certainly don't Matt and she didn't think so either, that's why she thanked me.

        If that seems offensive to you then I don't know what to tell you.
        It doesn't offend me at all Matt, I just thought it was as good a time as any to break the arguement up a bit.

        Now you enjoy the rest of your day.
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        • Profile picture of the author mattlaclear
          Originally Posted by Richard Van View Post

          I certainly don't Matt and she didn't think so either, that's why she thanked me.



          It doesn't offend me at all Matt, I just thought it was as good a time as any to break the arguement up a bit.

          Now you enjoy the rest of your day.
          So she can claim to play the role of the innocent young girl when it suits her. That's pretty much what I gathered from her thanking you. So you rescued a damsel in distress from three evil trolls who were planning on cooking her up with some lentils. (Not that I know what a lentil even is).

          Close call for sure.

          When I have a disagreement with my 21 year old daughter it is usually because she forgot to take the trash out. Not because she thinks my business model is ineffective.

          We now know after months of subtle attacks that she now considers our system valid for what we're wanting to accomplish with it.

          As far as I am concerned any future discussions like this should be considered apples to oranges.

          Which is what I have been saying all along on the threads.
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          • Profile picture of the author warriorkay
            Originally Posted by mattlaclear View Post


            We now know after months of subtle attacks that she now considers our system valid for what we're wanting to accomplish with it.

            As far as I am concerned any future discussions like this should be considered apples to oranges.

            Which is what I have been saying all along on the threads.

            And we ALSO consider her system valid for what she,
            and others who use the system, are trying to accomplish
            with it.

            As they say - to each his (or her) own!

            Kingsley

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            • Profile picture of the author drmani
              Take-aways:

              * Article marketing works by delivering traffic through syndication
              * Article marketing works by delivering backlinks for SEO

              * Syndication relies on visitors who read the article and following through
              * SEO relies on articles giving backlinks which boost SERP ranks

              * For SEO-style article marketing, spinning works (at least for now/short term)
              * There are "right" and "wrong" spinning styles; both work. Choice is individual

              * The SEO style of article marketing pre-supposes that one accepts the 'risk'
              of the backlinks losing power over time or being subject to vagaries of
              Google's algorithm

              * The syndication style of article marketing bypasses the dependence upon
              search engine ranking or traffic - allowing competition even in tough niches

              * Not everyone who endorses 'spinning' has a 'spinner' to sell... but as
              Caesar's wife must be above suspicion, having an ad for it in a sig file
              leaves some cynical and doubting about the post's content!
              (sorry, couldn't resist that!)

              All success
              Dr.Mani

              P.S. - Oh, and this is named the WARRIOR forum for a reason. Can't you see it?!
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              • Profile picture of the author mattlaclear
                Originally Posted by drmani View Post

                Take-aways:

                * Article marketing works by delivering traffic through syndication
                * Article marketing works by delivering backlinks for SEO

                * Syndication relies on visitors who read the article and following through
                * SEO relies on articles giving backlinks which boost SERP ranks

                * For SEO-style article marketing, spinning works (at least for now/short term)
                * There are "right" and "wrong" spinning styles; both work. Choice is individual

                * The SEO style of article marketing pre-supposes that one accepts the 'risk'
                of the backlinks losing power over time or being subject to vagaries of
                Google's algorithm

                * The syndication style of article marketing bypasses the dependence upon
                search engine ranking or traffic - allowing competition even in tough niches

                * Not everyone who endorses 'spinning' has a 'spinner' to sell... but as
                Caesar's wife must be above suspicion, having an ad for it in a sig file
                leaves some cynical and doubting about the post's content!
                (sorry, couldn't resist that!)

                All success
                Dr.Mani

                P.S. - Oh, and this is named the WARRIOR forum for a reason. Can't you see it?!
                I agree 100% with your summary Dr. Mani. There are many methods to skinning a cat. We have been arguing two different methods that have both been proven to produce results.

                What's the best method to use?

                That's easy...

                Both.
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              • Profile picture of the author warriorkay
                Originally Posted by drmani View Post

                Take-aways:

                * Article marketing works by delivering traffic through syndication
                * Article marketing works by delivering backlinks for SEO

                * Syndication relies on visitors who read the article and following through
                * SEO relies on articles giving backlinks which boost SERP ranks

                * For SEO-style article marketing, spinning works (at least for now/short term)
                * There are "right" and "wrong" spinning styles; both work. Choice is individual

                * The SEO style of article marketing pre-supposes that one accepts the 'risk'
                of the backlinks losing power over time or being subject to vagaries of
                Google's algorithm

                * The syndication style of article marketing bypasses the dependence upon
                search engine ranking or traffic - allowing competition even in tough niches

                * Not everyone who endorses 'spinning' has a 'spinner' to sell... but as
                Caesar's wife must be above suspicion, having an ad for it in a sig file
                leaves some cynical and doubting about the post's content!
                (sorry, couldn't resist that!)

                All success
                Dr.Mani

                P.S. - Oh, and this is named the WARRIOR forum for a reason. Can't you see it?!

                I agree with your summary, Mani... except that I see no reason
                for removing my sig file. I am currently paying $100 to $200 daily
                for my banner ads promoting my article spinning course, so I didn't
                need to have gotten involved in this thread just to pimp my sig file.

                I didn't start this thread. I got involved and answered a simple
                question. I had no idea it would get to this point, but I am glad
                it did,

                Also...

                All these while, even when I launched my article spinning course and
                had it in my sig file, I deliberately stayed away from the dozens of
                similar threads on the subject. If I wanted to pimp my sig file, I would
                have painstakingly looked for and got involved in any and every other
                thread on the subject in here. Going through ALL the other such
                threads you won't find me in them, despite my extensive experience
                on the subject of article spinning. Like I also said elsewhere, my
                first thread on "right" article spinning, 9 months ago, was done with
                NO article spinning course to sell.

                Lastly, warriors are not dumb. They will read through and believe
                what they want to believe. As they say - to each his own,

                Kingsley

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                • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
                  Originally Posted by warriorkay View Post

                  I think I can safely REST MY CASE here now. Clearly, she hasn't
                  done article marketing for SEO benefits, then why say it's a waste
                  of time and advice others NOT to do it?!

                  Again... my previous statement comes in...

                  Then let everyone do what works for them, without condemning
                  what works for other people, without EMPIRICAL evidence to
                  show it doesn't work. That's the point I have been trying to pass
                  across all day. Is it so hard to accept,

                  To say that those in support of article spinning are supporting it because
                  they sell spinners or articles is just plain silly... and childish!


                  Kingsley

                  .
                  Kingsley, are you saving time with a copy and paste maneuver? Several people offered an opinion. You disagree with both the opinion and the manner in which it was expressed. You start in calling names like silly and childish.

                  Paste away, but that's the way it reads to me. And, as it's outside the scope of this subject, I'm willing to drop it if you are.

                  Originally Posted by mattlaclear View Post

                  But...

                  Why would people want to steal articles when they can buy plr for dirty cheap? You can literally buy 25k of plr articles for under $20.

                  That's almost on par with stealing water or breathable air. You can do it but why???
                  Matt, for some people the gap between 'free' and a penny is wider than they are willing to attempt. Even if 'free' is achieved by stealing.

                  Others are simply amoral sociopaths who don't give a rat's behind about right and wrong, only about what they want.

                  IMO, neither type should be allowed to splash around in the gene pool.

                  Have fun at the furniture store...
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                  • Profile picture of the author myob
                    Originally Posted by mattlaclear View Post

                    ...So I'll end my part in it with this:

                    We spin and submit articles solely to create link juice to money sites. You write and submit articles to deliver traffic from article directories over to your money site.

                    End of argument?

                    LOL! And you're still making less than $1M a year after 15 years pimping keyword ranking? You are being so much fun to play with. What is so indefensible, however, is that your method is not easily adapted for most people, unless of course they use your services.

                    It can otherwise take months or longer to achieve meaningful ranking in the SERPs for those who do it themselves. Rather disengenuous or egregious positioning on your part, don't you think?

                    My argument is that a new person entering into IM would have a much greater chance of success by learning how to write effectively, directly to their targeted prospects before even learning SEO. No matter how high one ranks in the SERPs, ultimately that traffic will need to be somehow converted for any real commercial viablity.

                    Ranking number #1 in the SERPs for something is meaningless without effective writing skills. For an example, Google the keyword "something", and tell me if the number one position there is worth anything.

                    Calling for an end of the "argument" appears more to be a feeble appeal to end the "calling out". But thanks for playing.
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                    • Profile picture of the author mattlaclear
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                      • Profile picture of the author myob
                        Originally Posted by mattlaclear View Post

                        Paul...we make $1M gross from the wso's we're running (started only 15 months ago). If you think that's small potatoes then good on you. But I doubt there have been that many wso's as successful as ours.

                        Plus, it's none of your business what we're making on the other endeavors we have rolling.

                        Go bait someone else Mr. $11 Million man.
                        I never asked about your other endeavors, nor was I the one that even brought up the braggadocio topic.

                        Have you ever tasted limes and kumquats mixed together?
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  • Profile picture of the author warriorkay
    Originally Posted by Chris Kent View Post

    I don't think tests will be definitive for a number of reasons.

    First of all, SEO being what it is, you would have to do a large number of trials to see the true "average" result. We've all had our share of hit and miss anomolies.

    Second, there are many ways to do syndication and many ways to do SEO. I don't think a test is more a measure of individual abilities rather than the broader technique type itself.

    You can still have a competition to "win" against the other but a single competition won't prove anything about the techniques themselves. This is turning into more of a cockfight than anything else...I think you guys gotta understand that women aren't interested in this sort of proving of mettle and raising a challenge. It's a guy thing!

    There's no longer any need for this test, Chris...

    She has said she doesn't care nor does she do article
    marketing for SEO benefits. So, clearly she doesn't
    know about it as much as we do... as she has said,
    she doesn't care about it!

    What we hope is that she refrains from giving advice
    on the subject in future. It can be misleading!

    Kingsley

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    • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
      Banned
      Originally Posted by warriorkay View Post

      She has said she doesn't care nor does she do article marketing for SEO benefits.
      Not primarily for that, no. I did plenty of that in 2008/9, including spinning and automated submission, and (like so many others here) have now switched with relief to article syndication, which can also have tremendous SEO side-benefits of its own. But they're not its primary objective, which is simply getting high quality writing in front of highly targeted traffic. But as many people have been commenting in hundreds of threads, it's great to be able to build a residual-income-based article marketing business without being so dependent on Google.

      Originally Posted by warriorkay View Post

      What we hope is that she refrains from giving advice on the subject in future.
      Please excuse my not dignifying that insult with any response.
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      • Profile picture of the author warriorkay
        Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

        Not primarily for that, no. I did plenty of that in 2008/9, including spinning and automated submission, and (like so many others here) have now switched with relief to article syndication, which can also have tremendous SEO side-benefits of its own. But they're not its primary objective, which is simply getting high quality writing in front of highly targeted traffic. But as many people have been commenting in hundreds of threads, it's great to be able to build a residual-income-based article marketing business without being so dependent on Google.
        .
        This going back and forth is confusing, Alexa. In one
        post you say you don't care for SEO benefits... in
        another you say you do, etc.

        About the article spinning and automated submissions
        you said you did in the past, I doubt it. If you did, you
        would have seen some results. Matt is not crazy to
        talk about the STAGGERING results he gets from article
        spinning. Vitavee (yes, he sells spin ready articles) is
        not also crazy to talk about the results he gets from
        article spinning - his forum ranks top 10 in Google for
        crazily competitive keywords as well as lots of other
        sites of his clients - all from article spinning. I can go
        on and on but I won't.

        I think we are done with this discussion. The points
        have been made. It's left to other warriors to read
        and decide what they want to decide.

        Again, no grudges thus far. I actually had fun,

        Kingsley

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        • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
          Banned
          Originally Posted by warriorkay View Post

          In one post you say you don't care for SEO benefits... in another you say you do, etc.
          There was context, though, K. I said I didn''t care for SEO benefits as a way of measuring the validity of a method of article marketing. Which I don't.

          Because that isn't what article marketing's about.

          It's about paying money into the bank.

          I do care for my top rankings in Google, but they're slow-moving, longer-term, inevitable consequences of getting widely enough syndicated for not-too-competitive keywords. I don't deny that they can bring something extra, and I'm glad I have them. But I'd hate them to be my "objective"!!

          Like so many here, I spent a long time wanting that and not earning much as a result, before understanding that article marketing's far broader than that, and that that's just one small part of it - and mercifully not the most important one.

          Originally Posted by warriorkay View Post

          The points have been made.
          For sure.

          Originally Posted by warriorkay View Post

          Again, no grudges thus far. I actually had fun
          Same here, to an extent ... it was only the totally mistaken and untruthful allegation that I'm offering a writing service, and especially the refusal to retract it even on learning the facts, that offended me. (And that was nothing to do with you!).

          But people can see that for what it was, anyway, I think.
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          • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
            Banned
            Originally Posted by Chris Kent View Post

            With respect Alexa, no single person, including yourself, can create the definition of article marketing.
            Hi Chris,

            That's fair in so far as it goes, but I think can "report" the reality that article marketing isn't only about SEO without "creating" anything, Chris?

            It's just isn't. And I'm one of a large number of people reporting that.

            Look at Paul Uhl, who has a 7-figure income from article marketing without any of his sites ranking in the first few thousand listings of Google. Are we supposed to accept that he, and many others like him, simply don't exist? :confused:

            I'd like to think that it's possible to mention that article marketing isn't just about SEO without the conversation turning into (in places) rambling rants about me, how old I am, what I earn, what I'm doing and why, and so on and so forth.

            Ok, we all know that it isn't possible, because people openly have commercial interests involved in trying somehow to detract from what I'm reporting, and I accept that, but I think it's a shame.

            Not only from my perspective (and if I were selling something here related to the subject, as are those very few arguing with my perspective, I'd perhaps even welcome the attention!), but a shame for the forum and its members, too. Just my opinion, there - and I'm not asking you to agree with it.

            Originally Posted by Chris Kent View Post

            I think this is what grates with some people when you occasionally make such statements.
            Well, they need to get used to it, then, because I'm far from the only one saying it. (And in fact there are more and more people saying it, month by month). I'm just the one who's easiest to denigrate with condescending comments about my age. And with totally untruthful accusations (not retracted) that I'm promoting a fictitious writing service by making comments about "quality content". That's the reality, here, isn't it?

            Originally Posted by Chris Kent View Post

            Yes, the original point of article marketing was not to siphon off some SE traffic from high authority sites. It was to get republished elsewhere. But who can deny that it has evolved since then?
            It's evolved and re-evolved. The idea of trying to use article directories for their own backlinks and their own traffic was a latecomer to the game. I don't do that. But it remains factual that countless people (as I did) try it, find (as I did) that it doesn't work for them, and start threads here (as I didn't) with titles like "Is Article Marketing Dead?" and very similar sentiments. Because (unlike me) they often think that that IS article marketing. Which it ain't. As so many of us can attest to.

            I'm not the person starting those threads.

            There are hundreds of them: we can all see that.

            What their participants nearly all have in common is that they're using spinning and/or submission software in an attempt to use article directories for their own traffic and/or their own backlinks. They are taking a solely SEO-based approached to article marketing. And (in most cases) saying so openly. This is simply factual, Chris.

            Originally Posted by Chris Kent View Post

            Many people are successful without using it for syndication purposes whatsoever
            I don't believe that to be true.

            I think the proportion of them making a living that way is infinitessimally small. We've had perhaps 30 or 40 of these threads without one single person ever popping up and saying "That's all I do and I make a good living from it".

            I see that there's a small number of people selling services to people trying it "that way" and that they're successful. Nobody's disputing that selling shovels in a gold-rush earns a good living.

            And the fact that I am who I am and I say what I say, with whatever interest, enthusiasm, relevance and even gratitude it's received in other quarters, obviously rankles them. This is understandable, of course.

            In some cases, it apparently rankles them so much so that in their efforts to distract attention from the reality of what I'm saying, they'll even make untruthful allegations about me and my motivation for posting, and then even fail to correct them when their mistaken and inaccurate nature is firmly and clearly pointed out! This isn't understandable - in fact it's lamentable and disgraceful.

            But however lamentable it is, I'll just have to live with it.

            It is what it is, and as Kingsley says, Warriors are not stupid. They can see it for what it is. (My inbox, in fact, is currently overflowing with people seeing it for what it is.)

            I didn't start this thread, you know? Nor did I even start the contentious part of the conversation in it.
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    • Profile picture of the author DireStraits
      Originally Posted by warriorkay View Post

      There's no longer any need for this test, Chris...

      She has said she doesn't care nor does she do article
      marketing for SEO benefits. So, clearly she doesn't
      know about it as much as we do... as she has said,
      she doesn't care about it!

      What we hope is that she refrains from giving advice
      on the subject in future. It can be misleading!

      Kingsley

      .
      Ahahahaha.

      Alexa is one person. I don't know what her plans are (though I can guess ), but I can speak of my own and aren't inclined in the slightest to stop pointing out the disadvantages of flawed systems and the fallacies potentially spread deliberately by those with vested interests in promoting them.

      Sorry.

      I will not refrain from giving advice on the subject - based on my experiences - in the future; so if you wish to debate/argue with me again, feel free.

      I can't guarantee that I will always entertain you. That really depends on the length of my tether on any given day, and my own workload.

      Just please don't try to recruit me again into some flawed "experiment", the outcome of which being positively predetermined and/or blatantly open to manipulation.

      This thread has achieved nothing and proved nothing. Except, perhaps, that those arguing in favour of spinning and against syndication apparently - apart from being very childish at times - have very short memory spans and are unable to recall points which were explained to them mere moments before - multiple times, no less.

      Nice try at "silencing us", though, and (much!) better luck next time.
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  • Profile picture of the author KamauAustin
    TPW makes excellent points about articles and he's a pro on these issues. I agree that the most important issue with both duplicate content and spun articles is quality content. I've invested money in a staff of excellent writers and editors.

    This costs a lot more money than cheap articles. But investing in creating quality articles has gotten me featured on Web Pro News and even in ezines reaching a million people. So have articles created and spun for your sites or clients with high quality.

    If you do you'll get more quality backlinks and moreover featured on sites with real traffic juice. Good luck
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    Kamau Austin, helps emerging businesses vibe, survive, and thrive online. He is a Dadpreneur and Publisher of: eINFoNews . Austin is also a author of Raise Cash Fast and a SEO and Social Media Professional. Contact him at: Search Engine Plan

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  • Profile picture of the author Kierkegaard
    As an objective observer, I say the pro-spinners seem to be winning the debate.
    (Whether they're right or not is another matter)

    What I can't understand is that Google doesn't like site owners manipulating the SERPs and spinning is an attempt to do this. Surely it would be easy for Google to spot links coming from networks of blogs etc. with spun articles and then discount those backlinks. So why doesn't it?
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