Suggestion for the WSO Forum -- Just a curious idea

by tpw
68 replies
Please be advised that this is not my idea, but it was an idea given to me, and I am the person who felt confident enough to mention it in public.



As we all know, around the first of the year, the WSO sub-forum began changing in a significant way.

It was around about that time that people were selling reports on other websites saying the fastest way to bank online was to put together a simple 3-5 page report and sell it to the newbies at the Warrior Forum.

To my knowledge, there were at least two people who were making money teaching newbies to create products to sell to other newbies in the WSO forum.

Unfortunately, the nature of the Internet is any system that can be abused, will be abused. It seems to be the law of the jungle.

This was about the same time that people were selling products that taught people to buy PLR and Public Domain content, so they could create Kindle books and reports, and they could make that fast buck on the backs of people who were using the Kindle marketplace to buy books. :rolleyes:

What started happening in the WSO forum was not unique to the Warrior Forum. It is happening all over the Internet now, and many websites are responding with a heavy hand.



There was a thread here at the forum about a month back where the OP said that Amazon was rejecting his submission to Kindle on the basis of the content not being unique.

He kept changing the title and cover of the book, and the Amazon editors continued to reject his PLR submission to their catalog.

He asked what he could do to get his submission passed the editors at Amazon.

Many people asked why he just did not take the time to write his own book as writers have historically done. :p



We have all seen this, and we all generally know what is going on here.

In the old days of the Warrior Forum, people who had relationships with others in the WF community were typically the only people submitting offers in the WSO sub-forum.

In the old days, with no real rules in place, 90% of new WSO offers were presented by people who were very active in the WF. And as a result, we often knew who we were buying products from, because we would either recognize the seller or we could learn about the vendor by looking at their track record on the forum.

These days, it is not uncommon to see 50% of offers being made by people who have never participated in the WF. There are tons of WSO vendors whose only contribution to the forum is the WSO they submitted and any answers they have given on those WSO threads.

I don't know about you, but I have bought a few products from these 0-post members, and I have pretty much decided against doing so in the future.

I don't have anything against people who are new to the WF, since those folks may actually teach something that I might find useful and valuable to me.

But given my experience of the last year, I believe the odds of a 0-post WF member having a good WSO is pretty darn slim.

My tendency now is to only buy from people I know in the WSO sub-forum.

Which brings me to the purpose of this thread.



Let me reiterate that this was not my idea, but it is one that I am presenting to you tonight, because a few people thought it was a really good idea.

The suggestion was made to split the WSO sub-forum into two sub-forums, with the following configuration:
  • New WF members and 0-post Warriors would have a WSO section of their own;
  • Experienced members with an accepted level of presence in the forum would also have their own WSO-section.


Now, I do realize that if a system such as this were to be set up, those who are quick to pull shenanigans would race to meet the new rules and get elevated to the WF active participant WSO forum, but most of the people chasing the fast buck won't do the work necessary to achieve any status here in the forum.

With some kind of measuring stick that could not be easily manipulated, the system could survive the new changes, with the intended effects.

Maybe the criteria for the Experienced Members WSO Section would be at least 6-months of participation in the forum, with an emphasis on participation, i.e. 20 posts per month for 6 months.

I know that any possible solution would perhaps discriminate against some very good people. For example, (View Profile: KamauAustin) has been a member of the WF for less than two months, but he has been marketing on the Internet as long as I have been or longer -- more than ten years. And he has a lot he could teach all of us.

If Kamau were making WSO's, he would be stuck in the kiddie room for another 4 months, before he could join the experienced and proven WSO vendors in the main WSO forum.

But that might be a small price to pay, to ensure that more WSO-buyers would not be taken advantage of by those who come to the WF, simply to take advantage of the newbies in the forum, for their own personal gain.



There is never a perfect solution for anything like this, but consider it as food for thought.

What do you folks think?

Is it really that much of a problem?

And keeping in mind that any solution created must be easy to enforce and easy to program, what ideas would you have that could allow the owner and the mods of this forum to be able to quickly separate the wheat from the chaff in the WSO-section?


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#admin #curious #forum #idea #mods #suggestion #wso
  • Profile picture of the author Rus Sells
    Personally I think the barrier to entry to offer a product in the wso section should be elevated.

    This is my opinion and only that, this is Alan's sandbox and he's free to run things how he wishes.

    Now on to my opinion! = )

    By barrier to entry I mean the following:

    Length of membership

    Contribution to the forum other then post's on other people wso's.

    Proof that you have a website for your product which abides by most payment processors terms of service.

    Proof that you have a help desk or some sort of product support system.

    Mandatory interstitial terms of service agreement that buyers must agree to
    prior to being taken to the payment processor.

    Now its only my opinion here but I think people should not be selling products online unless they can prove they are a real business entity and not just some one creating reports that can be delivered via aweber or some other system that is unrelated to the actual product owner.

    That's my 2 cents! Let the rants begin! hehe
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    • Profile picture of the author Michael Shook
      @Rus.

      What kind of thing did you have in mind for interstitial terms of service?
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      • Profile picture of the author Rus Sells
        An intermediary page that the buyer arrives at before being taken to the payment processor.

        This page is the terms of service the buyer agrees to "before" the purchase is made.

        It could also contain the refund policy and privacy statement as well and the user must check the box to agree before being taken to the payment processor.

        That's what i have on all my products and even those who purchase from my wso have to get to see it too.

        Originally Posted by JMichaelZ View Post

        @Rus.

        What kind of thing did you have in mind for interstitial terms of service?

        Also as was mentioned before I don't think having a sub forum for newer vendors is viable in that many users may have the perspective that these vendors are to new, unlearned and therefor suffer in the experience and trust factor.

        While this could not be further from the truth in some cases, I'm willing to bet that for most vendors it is true.

        Look, I know we all started somewhere! I was not a noob when I started participating here but of course my post count was low. But having been in business for over 20 years I also new I could not just make a product, post it on the WSO section and be seen as credible. I waited and participated in the forums first and I firmly believe every one looking to sell a product here should do the same. Its like paying your dues!
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        • Profile picture of the author Michael Shook
          OP talks about the Kindle and PLR issue. For the Kindle marketplace, that was one of the more public ways that some of the stuff in IM came into the public limelight so to speak.

          Personally, I really like publishing to Kindle, I have had no problems with any of my books being deleted or not accepted, but they are not made from PLR either. And I like PLR, I sell it and it is an area that has also done well for me.

          I am thinking that an issue might be that some of the WSO's that give people some heartache are more to do with quick fixes or blitz attacks or ways to skirt around some sort of TOS. Some of the WSO's I have seen, not all by any stretch of the imagination, are produced from a single event experienced by the WSO seller. But they are sold as a system. And while they are true reports of something that indeed happened, they are not reproducible.

          The PLR Kindle idea seemed to be more of a case where it was an unsustainable idea once so many people got hold of it.
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          • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
            Bill,
            Sometimes the best answers are in someone else's head other than mine.
            That's almost always true, even for me.

            I fail to see how adding another of these threads is helpful. It's easy to say "You never know when someone will come up with a great answer." That's true, but it could just as easily be the justification for any question taking up the top spot on page 1 full-time.

            I'll be less cynical about it when I hear a suggestion that's practical and hasn't been suggested over and over for the past 8 years.


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            • Profile picture of the author tpw
              Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

              I'll be less cynical about it when I hear a suggestion that's practical and hasn't been suggested over and over for the past 8 years.


              Paul

              There is nothing wrong with cynicism. I suffer from it too.

              In fact today, I had to give the Best Post Of The Day Award to this post. :p
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            • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
              Russ,

              Again, I am not questioning your sincere desire to help. I will ask you a favor: Go through those suggestions and think about how you would circumvent them if you were the kind of person who wanted to cheat.

              I think I can ask you that one, since I doubt anyone will think I'm implying anything.

              Bill,

              Adding posting requirements just increases the number of garbage threads that are posted. Or, in the case of the slightly smarter creeps, the number of articles they post in the discussion sections.

              Jenny,
              Post counts, thanks, length of membership just don't do it for me anymore.
              Good choice. They're mostly meaningless by themselves.


              Paul
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              • Profile picture of the author tpw
                Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                Adding posting requirements just increases the number of garbage threads that are posted. Or, in the case of the slightly smarter creeps, the number of articles they post in the discussion sections.


                Paul

                Yes, and that is why I think it might be an idea worthy of consideration.

                The other morning, there were four WF accounts blasting the crap out of the forum with junk comments.

                Yet, with member moderators on the job, all 4 were identified, nuked and banned from the forum within one hour.

                With so many moderators working on your team, most of the bad eggs will be identified and terminated before they even reach the WSO forum.
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              • Profile picture of the author Jill Carpenter
                Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                Who does all that checking, and how much do you charge for a WSO in order to pay people to do it? And who handles the arguments when would-be sellers want to debate the TOS of another site?
                Not every user of that type of system would need to be checked on every WSO or bump.

                I think getting through the requirements, and an initial test - with warning you may be checked at any time in the future unannounced - would reduce the burden significantly.

                For example - Those who get approved are in, and might get a surprise checkup (like a drug test) but for the most part can shuffle back through.

                Now - I personally would offer services to check a checklist and monitor fellow warriors in exchange for something simple - like a credit to a banner in my sig or credits toward posting a WSO. Like a community watch - where folks could opt to either do their part or pay some extra funds for someone else to do this.


                Just tossing some ideas out from the top of my head.
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                • Profile picture of the author tpw
                  Originally Posted by Jill Carpenter View Post

                  Now - I personally would offer services to check a checklist and monitor fellow warriors in exchange for something simple - like a credit to a banner in my sig or credits toward posting a WSO. Like a community watch - where folks could opt to either do their part or pay some extra funds for someone else to do this.


                  Just tossing some ideas out from the top of my head.

                  And who polices the police? LOL

                  Imagine if someone at WFS got on the police force -- a deliberate worst case scenario demonstrated.



                  AND if you are willing to play watchdog in exchange for a banner, you are a cheap date. :p
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                  • Profile picture of the author Jill Carpenter
                    Originally Posted by tpw View Post

                    AND if you are willing to play watchdog in exchange for a banner, you are a cheap date. :p
                    Only online. Out for a dinner and a night in the bar is a whole other story. :p
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                  • Profile picture of the author kindsvater
                    There is already a high barrier to entry: one must pay to be a War Room member and pay for the WSO. The fee is, I believe, the highest on the net.

                    There is also a public review system.

                    Combined, that should reduce the number of junk offers.

                    Heck, there is a higher barrier to entry to post a WSO than there is to put that WSO on DVD and sell it on Amazon.


                    Off the top of my head, the "problem" may be the market. People who cannot afford much, forever looking for the next magic ticket that will make them a fortune with little work. People who fall for any hype. A never ending stream of newbies.

                    So sellers give them what they want.


                    I'm looking at a WSO right now - guaranteed $200 a day Affiliate Cash Machine using ClickBank. A very general proposition and offer.

                    I've been online long enough to have seen that offer a hundred times.

                    The title reminded me of another ebook in .exe format I just started up for grins ...

                    Internet Cash Machine - copyright 2000 by The Internet Marketing Warriors

                    Is that any better than this 2011 WSO? I don't know - didn't get the WSO. But someone may still have it on their computer a decade later because it was their first exposure to general money making concepts.

                    .
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                    • Profile picture of the author Tina Golden
                      I know this is a radical thought but why not let everyone be responsible for their own purchases?

                      Either they have brains enough to learn what to be wary of pretty quickly or they won't.

                      I don't think it's the forum's responsibility although people keep trying to put it on the forum.

                      Put it this way, if people can't be responsible for their own actions and know how to think for themselves, how successful will they be in business anyway?
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                      • Profile picture of the author AnitaCross
                        I think the WSO forum would benefit from being split into subforums, but I disagree with Bill's idea.

                        Creating a subforum for new members would be like putting their offers in a 'supplemental index'. Sure, they'd be listed, but how often would anyone see the offer?

                        What I would suggest instead is creating subforums based on topics: offline, copywriting, and plr, for example. In the application process, the product creator would specify which subforum, so there is no extra work for the mods.

                        To prevent the same conjestion we now see in the WSO forum, the rule could be that a product only be promoted in one subforum at a time. Offers would remain on the first page longer, not competing with unrelated offers. And when the time comes, the creator could choose to bump the offer, or to close the offer in one subforum and promote it in another, if it were appropriate.

                        This organization would also make it much easier for one to browse the WSOs looking for a specific type of product, easier to find a product that suits one's needs, and easier to find and discard offers of dubious value. I suspect it would result in an increase in sales for many of the solid offers, as well.

                        Of course, there will always be those who think they can skirt around the rules, spinning the product and the offer to have it live in multiple subforums at the same time. This should result in the member being banned from offering WSOs, at least for a time. However, it should not be the place of the mods to look for these. Rather, when it is brought to the attention of the mods by a member who has discovered it, the mods should then look into it and take appropriate action.

                        I'm sure there are flaws with the idea, but even so, I think topical subforums for the WSO forum would still be beneficial and an improvement on a good system that is getting bogged down by sheer volume.

                        -Anita

                        P.S. Tina. You hit the nail on the head.
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                        • Profile picture of the author Ken Strong
                          I'm getting tired just reading this thread. Most of these suggestions would be hugely complicated to implement and police, and may not do any good anyway after people figure out how to game them.

                          I like Tina's idea of forcing everyone to take responsibility for their own purchases -- just like in the real world!

                          Having said that, I sure wouldn't miss the huge number of people who have recently joined solely for the purpose of running WSOs (or creating bogus WSO-review sites to pimp their WSO affiliate links) if they disappeared. But that barn door shut a long time ago.
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                          • Profile picture of the author Mr Bill
                            I don't see it that way unless there is deception going on.

                            One good thing about the WSO forum is all the new people who are joining just to share their information. With that crowd come some rif-raf but it's good to see a lot of genuine people offering interesting new services, ideas and advice. Most is honest and useful. The more (quality information) the merrier. Choice and variety are always good.

                            Bill
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                            • Profile picture of the author Frank Donovan
                              Originally Posted by WSOHelp View Post

                              One good thing about the WSO forum is all the new people who are joining just to share their information. With that crowd come some rif-raf but it's good to see a lot of genuine people offering interesting new services, ideas and advice.
                              Call me a traditionalist, but it would be refreshing to see some of these newcomers sharing their information, advice and ideas in the main forum rather than heading straight for the WSO section.

                              It might actually help them in the longer term if they built some rep first. And it's what a discussion forum is primarily designed for.

                              Otherwise, it'll just become more and more like the tail wagging the dog.


                              Frank
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                              • Profile picture of the author Kay King
                                it would be refreshing to see some of these newcomers sharing their information, advice and ideas in the main forum rather than heading straight for the WSO section.
                                Frank - that brings to mind what I consider one of the most disturbing trends I've noticed here.

                                There are a full three pages and more of search results with "WSO" in the title for this month alone. More than 75 threads with questions by new members asking for help in how to configure, write, add a paypal button or an image for "my upcoming WSO". These are posts in the main forum sections and not a day goes by now without several such threads appearing.

                                Most of the people doing this are not members of the War Room. They have contributed little or nothing in the way of advice or answers - but they want help in order to make money from members here. It's a new trend and not a good one in my opinion.

                                I don't know that anything will change - or even if it should change. I do think it's good to vent on occasion though.

                                kay
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                                • Profile picture of the author Frank Donovan
                                  Kay,

                                  Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

                                  Most of the people doing this are not members of the War Room. They have contributed little or nothing in the way of advice or answers - but they want help in order to make money from members here. It's a new trend and not a good one in my opinion.
                                  Yep. And, of course, there's suddenly no shortage of WSOs offering such help. :rolleyes:

                                  I don't know that anything will change - or even if it should change. I do think it's good to vent on occasion though.
                                  Nothing wrong with venting now and then.

                                  Still, it just seems "right" that the privilege of running a WSO should in some way be earned, rather than be immediately available to all.


                                  Frank
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                      • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
                        Originally Posted by Tina Golden View Post

                        I know this is a radical thought but why not let everyone be responsible for their own purchases?

                        Either they have brains enough to learn what to be wary of pretty quickly or they won't.

                        I don't think it's the forum's responsibility although people keep trying to put it on the forum.

                        Put it this way, if people can't be responsible for their own actions and know how to think for themselves, how successful will they be in business anyway?
                        THIS^^

                        I don't buy any WSO's unless it's someone I know and respect or it's a specific angle of this business I need to learn.

                        Perhaps people need to realise that wild income claims that frequently look like a 10 year old child has written them should be avoided.

                        It won't stop people falling for them but people just need to be a bit more clued up and look at what's happening, it's not hard to see who knows what they're doing and who's worth listening too but sadly you'll always have people that are chasing dreams and believe anything and there are always s***bags that will abuse any system they see a chink in the armour of.

                        ....And Mr Farnham, please don't post anymore psychedelic images like that, it made my eyes go all funny and I fell off my chair.
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                • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                  Bill (tpw),
                  With so many moderators working on your team, most of the bad eggs will be identified and terminated before they even reach the WSO forum.
                  Do you really think so? You're nopt thinking like these people think, dude. They'd pay someone to start the requisite number of sensible threads, or just post a bunch of questions that would pass the filters, and that'd be the end of that.

                  How do you distinguish between real people withy real questions and the creeps posting the same questions for other reasons?

                  Bill (WSOhelp),

                  It's an ongoing topic that gets raised 3 to 4 times a month (minimum), and has for the past 9 years or more. It's gotten more common recently, as people who don't frequent the discussion areas are pushed to the WSO section by affiliate-based emails. Those folks get recommendations from people they've placed orders with, and don't know how to distinguish the legit stuff from the might-be.

                  Jill,

                  Having dealt with the chaos that is neighborhood watch, I can assure you it's not a dynamic that would be conducive to cleaning anything up here. Too much incentive for people to game the system. And too many additional subjective variables introduced into the equation.

                  As for the initial check... It'd be easy to fake that stuff every time. Keep in mind that we have recurring creeps who manage to get past what's there now, and then think of how it would work when anyone certified that people had passed the "test." That gets too close to an endorsement, which would make people less careful than they are now.

                  The logistics would be a nightmare, the liability would be huge, and the outcome would be people trusting the judgement of folks who don't have the access to really make good judgements of that type.


                  Paul
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                  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                    Russ,
                    While my suggestions might not be new as you've pointed out. I do think my idea for implementing them are new and novel. No?
                    Yep, but the basic assumption is the same: Raising the bar cuts down abuse. That has consistently been proved not to be the case.

                    For example, people have long said "Charge more, and it will reduce the bad stuff." Never works that way.

                    We had post count barriers, and they just resulted in more garbage posts, and more arguments about why something shouldn't have been deleted.

                    Raising the barrier has had one consistent result: Keeping out a few more people with useful knowledge to offer, but few resources.


                    Paul
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                    • Profile picture of the author Rus Sells
                      Well i will take your word for it, you know more about what happens around here then I do!

                      Thanks for being patient in regard to my opinion!

                      Peace!

                      Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                      Russ,Yep, but the basic assumption is the same: Raising the bar cuts down abuse. That has consistently been proved not to be the case.

                      For example, people have long said "Charge more, and it will reduce the bad stuff." Never works that way.

                      We had post count barriers, and they just resulted in more garbage posts, and more arguments about why something shouldn't have been deleted.

                      Raising the barrier has had one consistent result: Keeping out a few more people with useful knowledge to offer, but few resources.


                      Paul
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            • Profile picture of the author Bill Farnham
              Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

              I'll be less cynical about it when I hear a suggestion that's practical and hasn't been suggested over and over for the past 8 years.
              Paul,

              I think I found the solution to all those WSO problems.

              Look carefully, it's right in the middle down there somewhere...





              ~Bill

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          • Profile picture of the author Adam X
            If you want to improve the quality of the content on the WSO forum, we could have a requirement to include an annonymous poll at the start of each WSO thread. This would be a standard poll which could be added by moderators.

            Such as:

            -Did you receive positive results after implementing the wso
            -Would you recomend this wso to friends
            -Do you feel this wso is worth the price you paid for it

            and so on.

            I'm sure there are many who buy a wso and never leave comments. Such polls will make it easy and would mostly get you more honest fedback.
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            • Profile picture of the author Rus Sells
              Wouldn't work because you'd have to only allow verified buyers to respond to the pole which is to much information to give to the forum. You'd have a big privacy issue I think.

              Originally Posted by Adam X View Post

              If you want to improve the quality of the content on the WSO forum, we could have a requirement to include an annonymous poll at the start of each WSO thread. This would be a standard poll which could be added by moderators.

              Such as:

              -Did you receive positive results after implementing the wso
              -Would you recomend this wso to friends
              -Do you feel this wso is worth the price you paid for it

              and so on.

              I'm sure there are many who buy a wso and never leave comments. Such polls will make it easy and would mostly get you more honest fedback.
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            • Profile picture of the author George Wright
              Adam,

              With all due respect, to answer those questions on most ways to make money SHOULD take weeks if not months of testing. It would be long after the buyers have moved on to other products. Most buyers get WSOs to get ideas. (I'm giving us all the benefit of the doubt by not saying we just buy them to collect them.)

              Any answer to any poll before the method is tested would be purely opinion.

              George Wright

              Originally Posted by Adam X View Post

              If you want to improve the quality of the content on the WSO forum, we could have a requirement to include an annonymous poll at the start of each WSO thread. This would be a standard poll which could be added by moderators.

              Such as:

              -Did you receive positive results after implementing the wso
              -Would you recomend this wso to friends
              -Do you feel this wso is worth the price you paid for it

              and so on.

              I'm sure there are many who buy a wso and never leave comments. Such polls will make it easy and would mostly get you more honest fedback.
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            • Profile picture of the author Bill Farnham
              Originally Posted by Adam X View Post

              I'm sure there are many who buy a wso and never leave comments. Such polls will make it easy and would mostly get you more honest fedback.
              Honest feedback from Fiverr vendors more likely.

              Since the new model being heavily used in the WSO forum is to sell cheap products to build a list perhaps a $7 and under list building forum could handle some of the strain.

              Not likely, of course.

              ~Bill
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            • Profile picture of the author J Bold
              Originally Posted by Adam X View Post

              If you want to improve the quality of the content on the WSO forum, we could have a requirement to include an annonymous poll at the start of each WSO thread. This would be a standard poll which could be added by moderators.

              Such as:

              -Did you receive positive results after implementing the wso
              -Would you recomend this wso to friends
              -Do you feel this wso is worth the price you paid for it

              and so on.

              I'm sure there are many who buy a wso and never leave comments. Such polls will make it easy and would mostly get you more honest fedback.

              And you don't think people could game the heck out of that?

              I sure think they could.

              As it stands, the longer a WSO goes and the more buyers post, the better idea you get of its true value.

              I think that's a great feature. This is a forum, so buyers can leave comments and discuss the WSO with others.

              It's not foolproof, but generally if something stinks to high heaven, you are going to know about it. I was looking at a WSO just today that go closed because the methods sounded questionable with regards to legality and/or breaking other sites TOS without regret.

              Buyers saw it and at least one was brave enough to be the first to openly question the report, and for good reason. If you buy something, you have the right to comment on it and should give your honest review.

              The system is not perfect but I actually think it's working pretty well, if just not as speedy in some cases, as the forum has to be sure about shutting down a WSO instead of just doing it willy-nilly.
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  • Profile picture of the author TiffLee
    I'm all for this.

    ... I don't visit the WSO Forum often, but that is because of how 'diluted' it has become. I'm more than capable of filtering through what offers are legitimate and which ones are not -- but I just do not have the patience, nor the time, to do so.

    And I'm sure that many other Warriors face this same problem.

    The proposed solution would certainly make navigating the WSO forum a bit easier.
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  • Profile picture of the author ZachWaldman
    I like the idea a lot. The details, as you mentioned, would have to be sorted out, but the intention is great.

    In my opinion, people have forgotten that the idea of the WSO section is to offer a product you're offering to general public for a discount.

    I'm sure if you go looking for many of the products being offered as WSO's, you won't find them being sold anywhere else.

    Perhaps it should be required that you include a link to where you're selling the product to the public, proving that you at least have a separate website up for the product at a higher price. Make sense?
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Bill,

      You covered the objections to your own suggestion with the statement that any system that can be abused online will be abused online. I can think of several ways people could easily make a mockery of the approach you offered.

      I'll bet you can too, with just a little thought.

      Russ,

      Who does all that checking, and how much do you charge for a WSO in order to pay people to do it? And who handles the arguments when would-be sellers want to debate the TOS of another site?

      While I understand that the intentions here are the best, none of these suggestions is new. I would personally love to hear of something that would eliminate the problems and leave the solid offers alone, but I haven't yet. Not that would be practical, at any rate.

      "Use good judgment" is the best advice I've heard, but it doesn't help the people who don't have enough experience to know what separates a good call from a bad one.

      I'm not sure there is an answer to that one. Here or anywhere else.

      Consider the common response from people who have no problem finding the gems in the WSO section. There is clearly a lot of good stuff in there. They're not making it up. They "know how to pick 'em."

      Others have consistent issues. Telling them why doesn't help, because they don't want to believe that there is no magic button. The fault in those situations lies on both sides of the sale. (Clearly doesn't cover sellers who just don't deliver anything, but that's a much smaller problem.)

      My advice to people who regularly have problems with things they buy is to consider their own role in those problems. It's not 100%, certainly, but it's a factor they can control.


      Paul
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      • Profile picture of the author tpw
        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

        Bill,

        You covered the objections to your own suggestion with the statement that any system that can be abused online will be abused online. I can think of several ways people could easily make a mockery of the approach you offered.

        I'll bet you can too, with just a little thought.


        Paul

        Of course you are right. There are several ways I could easily shred my post... Easily and without much thought or effort. :p

        But the point is to explore ideas that others might offer... Sometimes the best answers are in someone else's head other than mine.
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      • Profile picture of the author Rus Sells
        I think there is a very simple solution.

        When the seller creates a product the submission page for the wso thread could include the fields for the required information which once submitted are parsed into hyperlinks. The person reviewing the wso for acceptance only need click the link and do a visual scan to make sure all is in order.

        Or...

        Even easier the submission page could embed an iframe code automatically.
        So when user submits his wso he enters the link to his site, etc. etc.

        When the review examines the wso for approval the vendors site is iframed right there for them to see, no need to even leave the site.

        Also it could monitor the vendors page and deactive the wso should the vendor remove the site. This would prevent vendors from merely slapping up a product page to get a wso approved.

        As for post counts and length of membership it could also display the vendors membership length and could even break down the post counts to show what part of the forums the vendor has had the most participation in. Namely we are just looking for post on sections of the forum other then in the wso section itself so it could discount those.

        In all sincerity Paul, I think enough money goes through this forum to make something like that happen and it wouldn't cost that much extra in manpower if any, especially if the iframe and post breakdown was used.

        But hey! This isn't my sandbox so I'll just go with the flow either way! = )

        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post


        Russ,

        Who does all that checking, and how much do you charge for a WSO in order to pay people to do it? And who handles the arguments when would-be sellers want to debate the TOS of another site?

        While I understand that the intentions here are the best, none of these suggestions is new. I would personally love to hear of something that would eliminate the problems and leave the solid offers alone, but I haven't yet. Not that would be practical, at any rate.

        "Use good judgment" is the best advice I've heard, but it doesn't help the people who don't have enough experience to know what separates a good call from a bad one.

        I'm not sure there is an answer to that one. Here or anywhere else.

        Consider the common response from people who have no problem finding the gems in the WSO section. There is clearly a lot of good stuff in there. They're not making it up. They "know how to pick 'em."

        Others have consistent issues. Telling them why doesn't help, because they don't want to believe that there is no magic button. The fault in those situations lies on both sides of the sale. (Clearly doesn't cover sellers who just don't deliver anything, but that's a much smaller problem.)

        My advice to people who regularly have problems with things they buy is to consider their own role in those problems. It's not 100%, certainly, but it's a factor they can control.


        Paul
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      • Profile picture of the author Mr Bill
        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

        Bill,

        You covered the objections to your own suggestion with the statement that any system that can be abused online will be abused online. I can think of several ways people could easily make a mockery of the approach you offered.

        I'll bet you can too, with just a little thought.

        ...
        Paul
        True, of course. Hopefully this thread will come up with much better suggestions.

        Bill
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      • Profile picture of the author JennySweets
        Just a little input from a "newbie" (not so green anymore though I can tell you that!)

        Post count and thanks do not always equate to a quality WSO. I've bought my fair share now, and one thing I see is sometimes when a warrior launches a great WSO with a fabulous response, they may quickly dump several more WSO's in the next weeks. And the quality goes down.. I don't know why that is, though I guess the desire to capitalize on a success is driving the next projects at too frantic a pace for quality control. (outsourcing without checking, sales pages getting sloppy, content getting thinner and sloppier, etc.)

        Anyway I'm thinking it would be GREAT to be able to filter out the type of crap / scam WSO's aimed at milking us fresh meat, but I can't see what the rules would be. Post counts, thanks, length of membership just don't do it for me anymore.
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  • Profile picture of the author Sam England
    I love the forums and most of the people here...

    Therefore I have nothing real bad to say...

    BUT...there is a problem here...

    I am super glad someone finally stepped up to the plate and at least mentioned an idea to combat the ongoing problems that are plaguing the forums lately...

    Personally I think the idea of a "Starters WSO Section" would be a perfect solution for the new members that have no real contribution on the forums to prove themselves worthy of selling real products in the WSO section...

    Sometimes the WSO section looks like the wild, wild west with some of the totally useless offers being presented to sale...people selling other peoples PLR and refuse to admit they are in the wrong...most of the time they are banned or there thread is taken down...

    These are usually the people with very little post and/or a profile name with random numbers or letters...

    Where are these people coming from?

    Well, I don't know...so I am gonna end it here...

    Thanks again my friend for a great post....

    My 2 Cents...for what it's worth...
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  • Profile picture of the author Mr Bill
    Thanks for posting this. I must say that I have never got really bad value out of a WSO and never saw the need to ask for a refund. I think they are cheap enough to be grateful for the tips and most appear to offer great tips. The ones I like the most are the ones who show me how to do some specific task. I always remove a zero from any money claims made and make that my expectation.

    Obviously, I get approached all the time to help with the WSOs. A lot of those queries come from newbies but not all and when I get an experienced Warrior on the line I always listen and interview and you are right. There is a feeling of questionable quality but everyone who I speak to wants to offer tremendous value. I have only had one client who wanted to do the wrong thing and I tore him a new one.

    I always advise not posting a WSO (funny as that may sound) unless it's original and useful. Not only useful but it needs to be VERY useful or they should just post it in the general forum as a general help tip. I believe the WSO section is like no other commerce field on the net and it needs to be protected. I have got amazing value and when I add it all up it's still less than some courses I've bought.

    I am doing my best to bring quality products to the WSO forum as I see it as a very unique way to make some cash while HELPING other Warriors do the same. I generally advise (almost 100%) against showing anyone how to make a specific amount of money and to stick to helping them with some task or to reveal are REALLY cool service or to de-mystify some process or introduce a new one.

    As long as new people (with valid, useful and genuine experience) are not stopped from making quality WSOs and you see a need to protect the service then I'm happy to abide by any new rules. I think that all discussion on WSOs is useful and I really hope this thread doesn't descend into a newbie hate bashing thread because I am personally helping quite a few newbies get their first WSO up and though they are new they are definitely not new to the internet or to internet marketing.

    I get a lot of people saying "I'm not making much money online so I don't feel good telling others how to do it" to which I say "GOOD - DON'T! Make a WSO that will massively help a Warriors life. Let them decide how to use it. Make no promises without solid undeniable and obvious proof so maybe there could be a division between "how to make money" and "How to do something"?

    I'm all in favour of taking any measure to protect the WSO concept as long as newbies can still post somewhere because (some of them) really do have something valuable to add. It's just a shame that commerce attracts flies but please whatever happens let's make sure we don't throw the baby out with the bath water.
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    • Profile picture of the author PhodM
      Originally Posted by WSOHelp View Post

      Thanks for posting this. I must say that I have never got really bad value out of a WSO and never saw the need to ask for a refund. I think they are cheap enough to be grateful for the tips and most appear to offer great tips. The ones I like the most are the ones who show me how to do some specific task. I always remove a zero from any money claims made and make that my expectation.

      Obviously, I get approached all the time to help with the WSOs. A lot of those queries come from newbies but not all and when I get an experienced Warrior on the line I always listen and interview and you are right. There is a feeling of questionable quality but everyone who I speak to wants to offer tremendous value. I have only had one client who wanted to do the wrong thing and I tore him a new one.

      I always advise not posting a WSO (funny as that may sound) unless it's original and useful. Not only useful but it needs to be VERY useful or they should just post it in the general forum as a general help tip. I believe the WSO section is like no other commerce field on the net and it needs to be protected. I have got amazing value and when I add it all up it's still less than some courses I've bought.

      I am doing my best to bring quality products to the WSO forum as I see it as a very unique way to make some cash while HELPING other Warriors do the same. I generally advise (almost 100%) against showing anyone how to make a specific amount of money and to stick to helping them with some task or to reveal are REALLY cool service or to de-mystify some process or introduce a new one.

      As long as new people (with valid, useful and genuine experience) are not stopped from making quality WSOs and you see a need to protect the service then I'm happy to abide by any new rules. I think that all discussion on WSOs is useful and I really hope this thread doesn't descend into a newbie hate bashing thread because I am personally helping quite a few newbies get their first WSO up and though they are new they are definitely not new to the internet or to internet marketing.

      I get a lot of people saying "I'm not making much money online so I don't feel good telling others how to do it" to which I say "GOOD - DON'T! Make a WSO that will massively help a Warriors life. Let them decide how to use it. Make no promises without solid undeniable and obvious proof so maybe there could be a division between "how to make money" and "How to do something"?

      I'm all in favour of taking any measure to protect the WSO concept as long as newbies can still post somewhere because (some of them) really do have something valuable to add. It's just a shame that commerce attracts flies but please whatever happens let's make sure we don't throw the baby out with the bath water.
      I concur with that sentiment..I think ultimately the real value that anybody can provide in the WSO section comes from making another warrior's life a little easier i.e. doing some research work for them(to save them time) or giving them a piece of software to make running their sites easier.

      The beauty of this type of WSO is you are not promising anything mega(or at least in my estimation you should not) but you are basically giving them something to save their time or money(or both)..That is a real Warrior Special Offer in my books
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  • Profile picture of the author Dan Allard
    What about making the requirements to posting a WSO at least 300 posts and 100 "Thanks", or something like that. And like others have said, having the product for sale somewhere else online.

    I like the idea, I've heard some bad things about WSO's. But I'd imagine that a separate forum for newer members wouldn't do so well, who would buy them? Might as well only allow experienced members to post WSO's then. Maybe members that don't meet certain requirements could only post in the Classified Ads section?

    Just my 2 cents.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mr Bill
      Originally Posted by Dan Allard View Post

      What about making the requirements to posting a WSO at least 300 posts and 100 "Thanks", or something like that. And like others have said, having the product for sale somewhere else online.
      That would be a little too radical for my tastes. There are a lot of genuine people who are new to this forum but not new to IM who would not be able to share information that would help using that strict a criteria. But I do agree that maybe some sort of meaningful community participation would be a good idea. That way they could be seen as genuine. I reckon half a dozen or so useful contributions and a thread might be useful. It takes a bit of guts to start a thread in such a serious community as this.

      A "Post A Useful Thread" rule (with at least 5 replies?) might be a good idea. I'd vote for that if asked and it would at least be a glimpse into the person. But not an introduction or anything like that, I'm thinking of something like a tech tip or net tip or a question...hmmm, I can see that getting out of hand too actually but for sure there should be a way to make sure the person is genuine without adding too much admin to the task.

      Great thread. I see nothing but improvements ahead. The WSO concept is unique and working well. I have received so much value personally that I can barely believe it. Like a natural reserve it should be protected.

      Bill
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      • Profile picture of the author tpw
        Originally Posted by WSOHelp View Post

        A "Post A Useful Thread" rule (with at least 5 replies?) might be a good idea. I'd vote for that if asked and it would at least be a glimpse into the person. But not an introduction or anything like that, I'm thinking of something like a tech tip or net tip or a question...

        hmmm, I can see that getting out of hand too actually but for sure there should be a way to make sure the person is genuine without adding too much admin to the task.

        Paul: Here is an idea that might have some merit. The member mods are pretty good at spotting the spammers when they arrive and dropping a dime on their heads quickly and efficiently.

        People might need to post 5-10 threads before setting up a WSO? In this way, people could be vetted before going to the WSO forum?

        I see problems here too, such as people coming into the forum when no one is watching, or running over to the test forum or another low traffic forum to post, just to get their thread starters up.
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  • Profile picture of the author onegoodman
    I agree with you tpw.

    It is rare for me to check the WSO, I feel it is hard to find the good deal. I am aware WSO is famous but I think it attracted even spammers.

    I think with a better supervision, the WSO can give a better value
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  • Profile picture of the author Patricia Sphar
    The age-old problem of trying to legislate ethics....now you know how Congress feels. I respect the WF and its WSOs but I do recognize the problem of low-quality WSOs that target the newbies. I applaud the creation of this thread and who knows? Maybe someone will come up with practical ways to offset the greed and relieve poor Paul's well-earned cynicsm. If vendors would put the same effort into a quality WSO that they put into trying to game the system, the WSO world would truly be the Garden of Eden----before the serpent, that is.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mr Bill
    Paul, your experience here gives you a perspective I could not imagine. I wish I could curb my comments to only those which have not already been expressed by others and I totally understand your sigh. I would sigh as well. I really didn't know this was such a thrashed out topic. It's hard to know what to search for to get a grasp of how many times this has already been raised before and I guess we get swept up in our enthusiasm for the topic. Maybe some older hands can throw up a link to an older thread and say "guys this has already been thrashed out in this thread - link".

    Bill
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    • Profile picture of the author tpw
      Originally Posted by WSOHelp View Post

      Maybe some older hands can throw up a link to an older thread and say "guys this has already been thrashed out in this thread - link".

      As soon as those threads have run their course, they are promptly deleted, as this one will likely be.

      We might have the opportunity to discuss this for up to about 24 hours, then my post count is going to drop again.
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  • Profile picture of the author Rus Sells
    Paul,

    I am sure there are always people willing to get around the system, however raising the barrier to entry will eliminate a large percentage .

    While my suggestions might not be new as you've pointed out. I do think my idea for implementing them are new and novel. No?
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  • Profile picture of the author pbdollars
    A week ago or so I read a thread of introducing rating. I think that will be a good suggestion. Also, a survey can be sent to users who purchased a WSO. That survey rating can be used to determine the quality of the wso.

    Yes, this is not a perfect one but helps a bit a guess...
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    • Profile picture of the author tpw
      Originally Posted by pbdollars View Post

      A week ago or so I read a thread of introducing rating. I think that will be a good suggestion. Also, a survey can be sent to users who purchased a WSO. That survey rating can be used to determine the quality of the wso.

      Yes, this is not a perfect one but helps a bit a guess...

      I could seriously toast my competitors if they did that.
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  • Profile picture of the author Texas_Guns
    Another idea...

    Maybe a win-win for everyone (Including Allan) would be a
    "Platinum WSO" section.

    - $100 to post a PSWO
    - Must be a member of WF for 1+ years to post
    - No commissions offered to promote the PWSO's
    - In order to see the killer offers, it costs $5 per month to see the PWSO's
    (if you buy one, you get the $5 back)

    As a product creator, you know your offer is going to be seen
    by active buyers who pay to see the offers. Nice.

    At the top of the PWSO is the ultimate transparency. It shows
    the number of buyers and provides the rating on a scale of 1-100
    that buyers rate. Possibly rate on a few areas such as: usability,
    uniqueness, value, etc.

    Sellers earn a "Trust Seal" that is displayed on the section on
    the right under "social networking" or "Contact info" after they
    have achieved at least 100 sales and a rating of at least 90
    or whatever metrics. Adds instant credibility and they get to
    puff out their chest on the forum because they have a cool
    badge not many others have.

    Sellers can only post 1 PSWO per month.

    Allan adds at least $2,000++ a day in revenue between the $5
    monthly charge to view the PSWO section and $100 fees.

    Saves those who are looking for more advanced materials
    a LOT of time sifting through the current list of 100 or so
    WSOs that are launched daily.

    I'd be more than happy to pay a monthly fee to access the
    more advanced materials myself! The time saved sifting
    would more than make up for it.

    Just a thought...

    PS - I lost about an hour of my life lost in the non-stop
    crayons moving. It hypnotized me. I don't know what
    happened except my PayPal account is $2,827 less than
    it was before I looked into the crayons - or whatever
    they are.
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      I don't have the answers but I do see the problems with most of the solutions suggested.

      I think WSOs shoudl have specifed run and then be closed. I don't think someone should be able to join the WF and immediately start posting one WSO after another. But that's just my thinking.

      The WSO section has become a cottage industry. People make their entire internet income in some cases by running WSOs. Sites that feed into the business are developed to capitalize on the profits from WSO's. I don't think there's a practical way to limit the growth or the crap that's become common.

      Brian is right - as long as people believe in fairyland and instant income, sellers will sell hype. Hopefully, newbies will learn after buying a few bad WSOs and maybe it will be a cheaper lesson than buying more expensive crap on other sites.

      I think WSO sellers are taking unnecessary risks with some of their claims. Catching the eye of regulators or paypal is not a great idea.

      kay
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      • Profile picture of the author WillR
        Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

        I think WSOs shoudl have specifed run and then be closed. I don't think someone should be able to join the WF and immediately start posting one WSO after another.
        Kay,

        I actually like that as an idea. A limit on the frequency of posting WSO's. Say a maximum of 1 per month maybe. That would mean those people who are relying on it as their sole income are going to have to produce better quality products for it to work.

        I think one of the problems is the people who rely on quantity - they know if they can put out several mediocre offers per month, all they need is x amount of sales of each and they will make x amount of dollars.

        The WSO forum was never designed to be a full-time income marketplace (I don't believe) so people should have no problems with being limited to only 1 WSO every month or 2 months...?

        There seems to be an increase in the number of people lately who are pumping these things out every couple of weeks - clearly their focus is on quantity and not quality. Hopefully this would shift the focus back to quality.

        In terms of the WF losing income over such a move, they need to think long-term. If things continue the way they are now the WSO section may not even be there in a few years.
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        • Profile picture of the author JennySweets
          Originally Posted by WillR View Post

          I actually like that as an idea. A limit on the frequency of posting WSO's. Say a maximum of 1 per month maybe. That would mean those people who are relying on it as their sole income are going to have to produce better quality products for it to work.

          I think one of the problems is the people who rely on quantity - they know if they can put out several mediocre offers per month, all they need is x amount of sales of each and they will make x amount of dollars.

          ....

          There seems to be an increase in the number of people lately who are pumping these things out every couple of weeks - clearly their focus is on quantity and not quality. Hopefully this would shift the focus back to quality.
          I think a limit like that would be great. As I said in my earlier reply, one of the things I've learned avoidance wise is to avoid buying subsequent WSO's from a member if I've gotten a good WSO from them recently. This may not be fair, and I may be missing out, but in my experience the quality goes down noticeably with each release, if they are coming fast enough. I can think of two marketers this has happened with, who have a great rep and lots of posts and thank you's and all of that.

          In fact I just got finished going through a WSO I bought yesterday that I *thought* would be a great filler / complement / more detailed information on a subject I'd previously purchased from the same seller on. I clicked close on the last mp4 file, and am seriously asking myself if I should, for the first time, go ahead and ask for a refund.

          Why never before? I figured, my mistake, small investment, my loss.

          However this time.. I'm just plain peeved that this marketer with this great trustworthy rep can put out something so weak, with so little actual information, or at least, not at all what was implied. (I mean come on.. I'm new, and I pretty much already knew everything that was in the WSO, thanks in large part to this sellers previous WSO. What the heckadoodle?) I won't get a refund if, once I start going through the bonuses, I find the value THERE (which I suspect I might.. gee I hope so) but it certainly wasn't in the main product.

          Anyway my point is, this person is dropping a WSO a month, and I think they seriously need to take a break. As do other marketers that come to mind.

          A time limit between WSO's *might* help with the problem. Or, they might continue to churn them out and just wait for their timer to reset.. who knows..
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      • Profile picture of the author Mr Bill
        Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

        ...I don't think there's a practical way to limit the growth...

        ...I think WSO sellers are taking unnecessary risks with some of their claims. Catching the eye of regulators or paypal is not a great idea...

        kay
        I hope no one tries or wants to limit growth in any way and there is definitely no room for false claims but I'm obviously pro this cottage industry because it's helped me and others.
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      • Profile picture of the author Bill Farnham
        Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

        I don't think someone should be able to join the WF and immediately start posting one WSO after another. But that's just my thinking.
        Actually Kay, there are a lot of people who think that way. In a large sense allowing that type of activity dilutes the meaning of what it is to be a Warrior (if there ever was one), and also dilutes the meaning of a Special Offer.

        Non-Warriors running non-special offers with questionable benefits for the community (excepting profit) as a whole.

        One good thing about the WSO forum is all the new people who are joining just to share their information.
        And the other side to that coin of allowing anyone off the street to run WSOs so as not to miss any potential 'new info' is the not so small group of Warriors who do have valid offers but don't run WSOs due to the velocity and noise of questionable offers.

        ~Bill
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  • Profile picture of the author Mr Bill
    I think the Platinum idea is interesting. I know I would work damn hard to get and protect a seal of approval from the WF. $5 is fair especially if I get it back when buying a PWSO.

    I also think Tina raises a very valid point. We're all grown ups. Are any of the WSOs really that bad? It takes a lot for me to click that buy button and if the WSO does not meet or exceed it's headline I would be upset. Some were a little thin on exact detail but I've never wanted to give any back.

    Bill
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  • Profile picture of the author WillR
    You would think I'd be all for something like this but I have to agree with Paul.

    You can raise all the barriers of entry as much as you like but all it means is these people will just have to try a little harder or pay a little bit more money to pollute us with their crap. It won't stop them.

    We are talking about money here. The same reason people rob banks and kill each other. Do you really think a small post count or a little increase in the WSO listing fee is really going to stop them? It may stop a small few but not the people we are actually trying to get rid of here - they are the people who are most likely to find a way around any rules you put in place.

    Like you, I used to get a little annoyed by all the rubbish surfacing in the WSO forum but recently I've changed my mind. I think it actually makes those products that ARE quality stand out even more so than they used to. Besides, those who aren't offering any real value don't seem to last long around here anyway - their day comes pretty quickly.

    I think if you want to run a WSO and take advantage of all the traffic that hangs around that forum and is now being sent there by a ton of Warrior Plus affiliates, you also need to expect this popularity will attract some less than desirable characters. I've seen more than my fair share of them over the last few weeks.

    This is a forum at the end of the day. We are all in this together and if we all keep an eye on things then the crap offers get weeded out pretty quickly - I've seen this happen several times lately. That's the great thing about a forum. So long as there are more people here doing good than evil we should be ok.

    I must admit, sometimes the easiest thing to do is blame the mods and tell them to do more. What I've realized only lately is how much these guys are actually up against on a daily basis. I think we should just be thankful they are there and doing the job they are doing. I know for a fact if they weren't this place would have gone down the toilet a long time ago.
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  • Profile picture of the author RefundHost
    The WSO listings generate the income that pays for you to be on this forum
    AND cause a lot of the traffic to the forum - the more, the better, see?

    So ownership can't make the barriers too high, or it all goes away.

    HOWEVER ...

    An optional rating system by, say, 100 WF vets to review the content
    and rank each WSO it in terms of

    Online / Offline:
    75% / 20%
    or
    100% / 0% etc

    Doable by:
    Beginner / Intermediate / Advanced

    Knowledge /Skill Requirements:
    Format & Add links to website or blog etc
    Keyword Research

    Earning Potential + Details
    Under $100 + but can be done over multiple niches
    $101 - $1,000 + niche specific
    Unlimited +

    Earning Recurrence:
    One Time
    Ongoing ( turn it on and let it work )
    Ongoing but fading ( works forever but might need rank boost later )


    Requirements:
    None / Existing Webstie or Blog with 100+ hits a day /
    Certain Accounts, ( Paypal, ClickBank Aff or Vendor )
    credit card types, live in certain country or region

    Minimum Actual Work Time:
    Less than 1 hour / 10 - 20 Hours / 100 hours


    Minimum Cash In Hand Time + Reason:
    Less than an hour ( eg if they'd receive payment by paypal or OFFLINE method )
    Less than 1 week
    Less than 1 month
    Less than 1 quarter ( eg. for a clickbank product to promote - takes about that long to actually get paid - also if paypal limits their withdrawals for 45 days or so on most paypal accounts )

    Additional Investment or Risk:
    $0
    or
    $ 100 in advertising / business cards/ domain name & hosting


    That way-

    The site earns from the CRAP WSOs
    and
    people get to see even new member WSOs ( more content, more traffic to YOURS )

    ...the well- known providers don't NEED TO allow unpaid reviews
    but the new people can BENEFIT from the reviews
    or
    ... the new members and crap WSOs will be identified as crap
    since they did not ask for a rating.

    Ya, ya - there will be WARS about that, too.

    But ...

    If the first 10 reviewers did not like it
    they can ask for 10 more to rate it
    and if still not happy
    they can choose to NOT SHOW the results and let it stand on its own.



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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      So you would turn successful members into testors so new members wouldn't have to do their own due diligence? Do you think people with real businesses have that kind of time to donate so you don't make a mistake on a $9+ purchase? Could we have a reality check please?

      That's the best argument I've seen for making no changes at all. Too bad we can't just prohibit any refunds on WSOs - maybe people would have to THINK before buying.

      ...totally new concept?
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    • Profile picture of the author WillR
      Originally Posted by RefundHost View Post

      The WSO listings generate the income that pays for you to be on this forum
      AND cause a lot of the traffic to the forum - the more, the better, see?

      So ownership can't make the barriers too high, or it all goes away.

      HOWEVER ...

      An optional rating system by, say, 100 WF vets to review the content
      and rank each WSO it in terms of
      Sorry, but that is a nightmare of an idea. You will basically have a WSO forum exactly as it is now... just with a whole lot of complicated steps in the way.

      I say just leave it as it is. There will always be idiots around, let Karma take care of them.

      Besides, I really don't see what the ACTUAL problem is. Good products are still selling thousands of copies in only a few days and bad and/or copy-cat products are being found out within hours of launching and immediately shut down.

      So what is the actual problem we are trying to solve here?

      Competition? Competition is good. Especially when that competition is crap.
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  • Profile picture of the author sethczerepak
    I bet this discussion is similar to those going on at Google. Trying to find ways to filter out the spammers. Speaking of, I think the solution would be to make the requirement votes. votes from other users. If you have a certain amount of "thank yous" on your posts or threads from other users, you get "promoted." The level of your membership could also determine how valuable one of your votes were.

    Social proof baby! Having a post count or time frame just causes people to make posts like this:

    "Sounds like a good idea"

    Time periods could be just as bad...you just set up an account, pay an outsourcer to post garbage and wait til you "make quota." The social votes system would be perfectly automated, require no supervision...scalable.

    Damn, I'm creating my own membership site right now, more upscale version of WF...I might just do this myself.
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    • Profile picture of the author WillR
      Originally Posted by sethczerepak View Post

      I bet this discussion is similar to those going on at Google. Trying to find ways to filter out the spammers. Speaking of, I think the solution would be to make the requirement votes. votes from other users. If you have a certain amount of "thank yous" on your posts or threads from other users, you get "promoted." The level of your membership could also determine how valuable one of your votes were.
      ... and when those votes start getting sold like Facebook likes, Youtube ratings, etc what do you do then? Go back to the drawing board yet again?

      Anything left in the hands of members is going to be a target for manipulation.
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      • Profile picture of the author Kay King
        The thanks button is an interesting little tool. I don't look at the number of thanks a member has received....but I do look at the number of "thanks" he has given to others. To me, that indicates someone who is participating in the forum discussions.

        Threads like this end up having two conversations going on. The first is what tpw posted about higher standards for the WSO section as a whole. The second conversation is started by those who think newer members need to be protected from making bad buying decisions.

        If you see a "mob consciousness" in this civil thread, you probably are participating in the second conversation. You should have seen some of our previous free-for-alls on this topic:p
        Signature
        Saving one dog will not change the world - but the world will change forever for that one dog.

        I'm going to work on being less condescending
        (Condescending means to talk down to people)
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  • Profile picture of the author Cool Hand Luke
    As Paul points out, the idea that the WSO forum needs more regulation is far from new. From what I understand the barriers to entry have been adjusted several times, and when you think about it, are actually pretty substantial as is.

    The simple fact of the matter is that when emphasis is put on "policing" the WSO section, we are affirming the belief that people are not intelligent and insightful enough to judge for themselves what products may or may not have value for them.

    Personal responsibility is HUGE in any type of business, and people need to be held accountable for their decisions concerning any type of business transactions. This is not only a hallmark of an insightful businessperson, it is a much needed tool in all of life.

    I don't think the members of this forum are babies who need to be looked after, and as such we shouldn't treat them that way.

    Let's give the members of this forum some credit. If anyone is interested in a WSO, it is up to them to read through the sales copy, read the testimonials and the posts in the thread, and judge for themselves whether or not they want to buy.
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  • Profile picture of the author davejug1
    How about doing it through the War Room?

    Say for example the Warrior wants to post a WSO, s/he placed a thread in the War Room and members view it and judge it's viability. Let's say 5 people click the download link and the thread is closed. When the five Warriors have read it, they have the chance to vote yes or no based purely on value. Most Warriors will have a good understanding of whether or not it has value. If 3/5 members say yes than it is passed. To stop people just taking advantage of the system, they are only allowed to judge 5 per month and the forum locks until they vote on the specific one they are looking at.

    Just an idea, but it would not interfere with the staff, they all have their own jobs to do.
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  • Profile picture of the author Steve Wells
    Can't post a WSO unless you have been referred by at least 5 other warriors with good credibility and standing on the forum.

    Would need to open a section, where request are made by those wanting to be sponsered/referred to run a WSO.

    This has not been thought out all the way, but it could be a viable option.

    It may kill revenue a bit on the WSO forums, but it would eliminate many people from posting WSO's who have not made a substantial contribution to the forums. Who have not been recognized by others as being credible.

    Again, this is a rough idea, that could be revamped, added to, taken away from, etc.... I am not to alert right now, I need to sleep.......
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  • Profile picture of the author dagaul101
    I don't see how it would work, as you rightly notice new members with 0 posts wuld simply do anything they needed to do to elevate themselves to post in the regular WSO forum
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