Never buy a product WITHOUT an upsell...

Upsells are fine (I suppose - not a fan personally) as long as they are not needed to fulfil the original promises of the sales copy. When I buy something I expect to get it, not bits of it and then if I "really" want to get the "whole and proper" job done I have to pay more. That just makes me angry and I immediately feel ripped off. I sat through 5 upsells once...lot's of swearing that day could be heard eminating from my office.

I think it's a bit sad that upsells are considered "fundamental" actually. But that's just me.

I don't really think that just because someone doesn't have an upsell that means they are not an authority, does it?

I mean they might have tested their sales funnel and found that having an upsell was not the most profitable thing for them. Couldn't that be possible?

Also, not sure how you could tell beforehand that a product has an upsell and, therefore, avoid buying the ones that don't.

Lee

This doesn't make any sense at all. How does an upsell have anything to do with whether or not someone knows what they teach? Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see any direct relation with upsells and proving authority on a topic because you offer them.

So, if I walk into a hardware store to buy some nails and they don't try to upsell me a hammer, does that mean they aren't a trusted source for all of my hardware supplies and don't really know anything about hardware?

How about a guy on the street corner that's trying to sell me a watch out of his coat pocket and tells me that for only $5 more, I can buy the necklace that he has with him, too. Does that mean he's an authority on selling jewelry and is someone I can trust?

Haha, I actually just bought one and personally as a buyer and seller I think they are perfectly fine .

As a buyer, you get more "hopefully" quality info on that you are interested in learning/doing.

As a seller, you can make that extra dollar, it is always up to the buyer if they purchase it or not.

Have a great holiday weekend USA

Having 1 upsell is ok for me. If it's helpful then why not buy it, but adding more than 1 upsell and downsells, its just annoying.

There is definitely a wrong way to do it, like saying the main product wont work unless you have this, or using extreme pressure, that type of thing. But as annoying as 5 upsells are, can you (as a marketer) really blame them for doing it?

Dodgy tactics aside, a good upsell should be like when you buy a car. They've got extra options like sunroof, leather seats, mag wheels, etc because some people want all the bells and whistles and the dealer is more than happy to accommodate and take their money. Sure, it's still a car and it works just fine without all those things, but they're damn nice to have!

I've seen people ask for refund purely based on the fact that an upsell existed. This business is all about selling, I just think some warriors need to approach the matter as a marketer and not just a consumer.

I'm not really sure if that is a correct assumption. If a course is bad then i won't really expect much from up or downsells.

But what if this person's course doesn't require any upsells? Maybe it is already awesome as it is.

i will also point out that i have done some testing on this issue, and in many cases sellers can actually make more money by separating the upsell and making it another stand alone offer.

if you have went through the trouble to create a 2nd product to be used as an upsell, there is definitely a good chance you would in fact make more money offering your upsell as a second product and using all the mainstream marketing methods you would use for product 1 on product 2 (your old upsell)

this will always depend on the offer of course, but i have definitely seen that combing offers just to have an upsell may in fact be taking money out of your pocket.

its a concept called opportunity cost.

Sometimes dropping the upsell doubles your conversion.

But hey! Everyone knows you have to have an upsell, right? Hahaha, what idiot wouldn't have an upsell. Screw your silly test results and math, I have a generally accepted aphorism!

upsells do help in boosting your bottom line income.

Around 30% of my clients end up purchasing my upsell.

What I also do is get my clients to subscribe to a squeeze page after they make a purchase and then you can promote them 2 more products at the thankyou and confirm thanks page.

Also you can list more products at the backend on the download page.

As long as your other products are adding value to your initial offer and as long as you are providing value in all of them, these simple tricks can end up making you thousands additional...

Just because it may be a fundamental doesn't mean that it's a requirement. In baseball, sinkers, sliders and curve balls are among the fundamentals for pitching, but that doesn't mean a pitcher is no good if he doesn't use them for each opponent's at-bat. If you know you can get the job done with a particular batter with a mix of fastballs and change-ups, there's no need to toss in a slider just because it's one of the fundamentals.

An upsell is a tool. Just because some may not use it on all their products doesn't mean they don't know how to use to effectively. It just means they didn't need it for that particular job.

Apart from the fact you can never know if there is an upsell until you have purchased the original product

The rest of the advice is sound, take no notice of those arguing the point with you, your correct in your original thought

here is another reason for upselling (despite the comment about upsetting a reviewer further up the thread) as a prospective affilliate i want to see upsells in the marketing sytem or i'm not going to promote you.

I want the biggest bang for my buck if i am going to email my list and recieve the normal downside of mailing and get people unsubscribe.

Most people with a decent list and who know what they are doing will not normally promote something that doesnt stick to good marketing procedure. There are exceptions but not many.

And 100% if i dont know you and you approach me to promote for you, then the first thing i will check to see is if your covering all the bases, and upsells must be part of the process or i wont even answer your request.

If i like the product and feel inclined to do a promotion and I think you have done the upsell badly i will offer up some changes for you to make before I promote.

An upsell is supposed to enhance the product or service. For instance buying an upsell that automates step makes sense. with that said, seller must be sure to deliver all that's promised for the product and disclose that that is an upsell that will make life even easier.

I have found that when you are upfront with your buyer, it tends to build trust much quicker and that buyer will normally buy your future products.

Couldn't of put it myself.

James Scholes

I think an upsell can be a good idea but I hate it when I say no thanks and another sales page comes up, then say no thanks again and yet another appears. Sometimes it's just annoying abit like when you walk over to a car lot and the salesman pounces.

I have just created my first ever product and it is a free report. I decided not to add an upsell page as the report is free, or is this a bad idea not using an upsell page

This statement is on par with those who bitch about upsells and OTO's -- ludicrous.

Some people in this thread really hate money.

Upsells aren't evil, only evil upsells are evil.

"Do you want fries with that for an extra buck?" - There is nothing wrong with offering them something extra that complements the original purchase.

"Do you want the meat patty in the burger for an extra buck?" - This makes the original promise a complete lie and there is everything wrong with that.

Stop moaning about how much you hate marketing on a marketing forum and go apply some of it to your own businesses.

Having a sales funnel is certainly a smart marketing idea, but like anything else it's not an absolute. Time & testing will tell whether your market responds well to upsells or not. In the Internet Marketing realm, visitors are accustomed to seeing upsells so it's not that unusual. If you tried that with a puppy training ebook, you may make your buyer jittery & cause them to immediately feel distrust, like they got ripped off or something like that.

It depends on the product/service too. If I sign up for a low $37 ebook & then the upsell is a monthly membership site or $100+ software to automate/improve upon the book then that works well together. It's an enhancement rather than a withholding of what was promised in the initial sale.

However if I pay $1000 for an all inclusive service & then get hit with upsells, I get a little ticked off. That's just getting greedy at that point or really your all inclusive service isn't as great as it should be.

I see upsells as additional supplemental material that a warrior can use to further his or her internet marketing career. As someone said earlier, the original WSO the warrior paid for should be given at the outset, and then any additional information, resources or services should be then added for an extra cost.

More than one way to skin a cat...

Instead of trying to get ANOTHER sale right away, maybe another approach is to provide them VALUE First then ask for another purchase...

For example, if it's a video product - don't just make it a zip file - also make it so they can watch it online. Under the video you put related products...

I'm still testing both - but the latter is working best for me at the moment...

I'm a little tired of upsells (or promotions within a product) where the upsell itself seems to be the whole reason the product was put together in the first place. I'm also increasingly suspicious of those upsells that may not be "required" for the product to work, but sure make it way better. I'd rather marketers just package the whole thing together, spell it out, and charge more from the get go. OR, at least spell out the upsell details in the original sales page.

The other day -- on the strength of his reputation for over-delivering and my own very happy experience of that -- I bought Jason Fladlien's product on QR codes. It was $27, and the report itself was frankly a little thin, IMO. The $27 did include, however, access to online software so you could create QR codes (as if there aren't plenty of other free resources for that online).

But I was even more disappointed that within the document was a sales pitch for a $77 product that allows you to edit the QR codes so you can create them and rent them for changing clients or change where they point to, etc. Very useful -- but also very pricey and I felt the report itself was intended primarily to sell access to that. It wasn't Fladlien's usual good stuff and his reputation with me suffered greatly -- near terminally -- as a result.

The problem is a lot of people use upsells incorrectly these days. Instead of creating something that makes using the front end product easier or more effective they will instead just take something away from the front end product and then offer it as an upsell.

Balls to those people.

Sorry, but that's just a ridiculous comment. People who do not use upsells are NOT ineffective marketers. I have been marketing for over 6 years and I know exactly how to do upsells. It doesn't mean I use them every time. There are times where I care more about helping people than making a few extra bucks - I guess that's the difference between some of us.

Um... no, people don't. They don't have to accept anything. If your customers are complaining about the way you are upselling then maybe you would actually do better to sit back and LISTEN to your customers for a change instead of TELLING them the way it should be. Then again, maybe that's only what us ineffective marketers do...

This is a weird post.
I just don't see the logic... sorry.
Upsells typically mean the main product isn't strong enough perhaps?
That's the way I see it.

It depends, based on most of the claims I see in the WSO section, if they are true, then the $500-$5000 they will make from a typical WSO is peanuts in comparison to how much their method makes.

If they are telling the truth, then rather than create upsells their time is better spent on the method they are selling rather than on product #2 the upsell.

The WSO is often just a brain dump of the method and can be done in a couple of hours to a day, but creating a new product to upsell would take much longer.

Coaching is another option but I reckon many warriors prefer not to sell their time either, unless they particularly love doing coaching and helping people.

So in summary it makes perfect sense to not upsell in many cases. I'd even say that the lack of an upsell can be good sign that the product is quality.

I never got any complains about upsells what so ever..

Personally when i buy online products, i love upsells..

Even if i don't buy them i learn from them .i.e how the sellers has setup the upsells, sales page, follow up email etc.

Cheers,

~Gary

It is interesting how everyone sees this differently... For me, upsells are annoying because of the extra step. Why didn't you just throw it in with it at the beginning as part of a full package and just charge me more? Jumping through extra hoops to get everything you are offering is a waste of my time, and I find it difficult to forgive people who waste my time.

And because I am the center of my own Universe, I know that everyone puts out all of their products and create different salespages just for me.

I can see both sides of this coin. Upsells can be great for all involved if they make sense in the context of the product or system. In some cases or niches, they absolutely don't make sense and should be avoided.

<rant>There have been times when I had to pass on an upsell or a OTO because it was "out of reach". I'm not saying you should avoid upsells due to potential buyer's fiscal abilities, but as a consumer, I do sometimes HATE having to jump through hoops to get what I want. I REALLY hate when upsells form an endless loop of exit pops that bring you back to where you've already been. That is buyer's remorse just waitin' to happen! </rant>

Jim

Upsells are just fine, had them with my product and that it is only offered to increase productivity though they are not a necessity in order for the product to work. Subscribers can still make the initial product to work even without the upsells. This being the scenario then I would definitely have no problems with offering or being offered upsells/upgrades.

Upsells are fine as 'Further reading', but never to fulfill the promises of what it is you just bought.
Not all products need an upsell. Check out my WSO in my link, its a simple and powerful tool but doesnt have a natural product to upsell.

Well, I sure am glad that you put in the line about exceptions.

My last product I wrote in response to a genuine need I saw in this forum for the information I have. It isn't something that just anyone could duplicate without the right educational background. It's not something that I care to continue as a course of business, though. That doesn't make the information less valid.

This is a bit of rehash but it's the way I feel.

I'm not real excited about buying a product that is just a light-weight teaser for the real one either. While I think a continuum is a good thing to look for, the "up-sell" isn't necessarily what I want to see at all.

I might look at other products the person has created and see what the their flow is, but an "up-sell" has become such a diluted idea that I tend to avoid them. Once a technique hits the mainstream, it becomes abused by every Tom, Dick, and Harry that wants to make a buck.

I think I'll just stick to due dilligence on the product creator to find out if the first product is even going to be an enticement and worry about upsells later if the product I already bought blows me away.

Toby,

I think JohnMcCabe, CDarklock and others have exposed flaws in this curiously sweeping piece of IM advice and reasoning, but if you remain committed to this line of thought moving forward, I have a simple question:

Should IMers who adopt this reasoning for the presumptive good of the trade demand a refund if they purchase a product and make the horrifying discovery when the sales process ends that they hadn't been asked to spend more money?

Gawd, the serial refunders looking for new and better excuses must be loving this thread. The italicized passage immediately below remains fiction, at least for now:

From: John Doe IMer
To: Jane Doe IMer
SUBJ: I want my money back pronto!

Ms. Doe,

As an IMer and an IM coach who practices what he preaches by ALWAYS including an upsell and teaching his students NEVER to buy a product without one for the continued good health of the trade and its professional JV partners worldwide, I choose to do business ONLY with those clear-thinking IMers who ALWAYS offer upsells. I didn't realize you had no upsell until AFTER I paid for your product. This is bad for IM and a horrible way to do business. Don't you realize you're leaving money on the table and screwing your JV partners? The nerve of some people who call themselves IMers!

I doubt that you even have JV partners. What clear-headed IM professional looking for affiliate and JV opportunities would want to do business with a woman stupid enough not to offer an upsell? These poor people suffer from unsubscribes every time they do a mailing. If they mailed for you, not only would they get unsubscribes, they'd also have no chance to make money from a back-end sale to ease the pain of the unsubscribes!!

Why? BECAUSE YOU DON'T HAVE ONE IN CONTRAVENTION OF THE GENERALLY ACCEPTED IM APHORISM THAT YOU *MUST* HAVE ONE AND THAT FELLOW IMERS *NEVER* SHOULD BUY A PRODUCT WITHOUT ONE!!

Get a clue, lady. And send me back my money or I'll file a chargeback and put you on the "bad seller's" list. We IM and JV professionals know exactly how to deal with amateurs like you. Not offering an upsell is a clear sign that you're a hack and maybe even a scammer, and I demand a refund!

John Doe

P.S. Consider this a friendly dispute for now, one IMer to another. I'll escalate it into a full-blown dispute with your payment processor if I don't get a satisfactory result from you in 24 hours.

Serious question: Did you pay a fee to hear this advice, and then adopted it for your business? Did you incorporate this advice after seeing it proffered on an IM forum?

IMHO, what IMers need to embrace is common sense -- all while constantly questioning the conventional wisdom and being on the lookout for approaches that sound good (and are designed to confirm biases), but are exposed as sweeping generalizations or the byproducts of insular thinking when subjected to the barest of scrutiny.

Patrick

P.S. I think upsells and cross sells and upgrades and OTOs can be designed in tasteful ways that speak well of IM and affiliate marketing -- all while creating value to the IM consumer and providing legitimate affiliate profit opportunities whether the economy is good or bad.

But inelegant, gimmicky and deceptive upsells and cross sells and upgrades and OTOs make consumers wretch and are viewed as nothing more than just another IM "trick" to separate people from their money. Some Warriors have openly shared their feelings in this thread about being treated like cash cows and not customers. I can't help but wonder how many Warriors reflexively will be inclined to dismiss them as haters or whiners and people who don't "get it."

There was a particularly hideous "upgrade" scam last year in which more than 100,000 IMers got roped into enrolling during the free "prelaunch" phase of a purported data-entry "opportunity" -- only to be told later that they only real way they could profit was by purchasing a $126.95 "Pro" software package with a continuing monthly charge of $29.95. This software purportedly would make the lives of "Pro" members more efficient by providing a tool that would improve the speed at which data could be entered -- while setting the stage for them to create enormous riches.

Enrollees unwilling to pay for the "Pro" upgrade still would get a data-entry tool, but it would be slower . . . than . . . painfully . . . slow.

Here, verbatim, is part of the pitch. Mind you, IM customers were NOT told these things when they signed up for the "free" affiliate "program":

With PRO Upgrade Software an entry takes up to 1 minute. Without takes up to 3 to 5 minutes.

With PRO Upgrade Software you may repeat address for entry with a click of a button. Without you need to re-enter all address data manually.

With PRO Upgrade Software many fields will be already filled in. Without you need to re-enter all address data manually.

With PRO Upgrade Software you may enter as many entries as you wish at one time. Without you are limited to 5 entries per day.

With PRO Upgrade Software you may enter data for others who also have PRO Upgraded Software. Without you can only enter for yourself and not receive any entries from anyone else who may wish to help.

On a concluding note, numerous herd IMers -- hundreds or even thousands -- did mailings and created websites for this purported affiliate "opportunity" that offered a purportedly exciting chance to get rich. No verifiable evidence has surfaced that anybody other than the "opportunity" sponsor got paid, but "Pro" affiliates who paid for the upgrade complained that their credit cards continued to get dinged and that getting a refund was next to impossible.

I'm not very sure what some of you complain about.

• From the marketer's point of view: A properly-chosen and properly-priced upsell can score a 30+% conversion ratio. That's a 30% extra you add to your bottom line by doing virtually nothing.

• From the customer's point of view: a good upsell that adds value to the original purchase ("would you like some chicken nuggets with your BigMac menu, sir?"), can round up his original order into a complete package, and he will be happy to pay extra for that "completeness".

So, as long as you offer the correct up-sell or cross-sell, it's a win/win situation for both the marketer and the customer, so why not?

Without a doubt, upsells are a powerful tool in the hands
of a skilled marketer.

Applied skilfully, an upsell is a great way to add more value
to the customer's purchase and increase your customer lifetime
value too.

Applied without sufficient skill however, upsells can be
a disaster.
Upsells are NOT a fundamental at all.

Fundamentals, are basic, foundational principles that
need to be applied to generate results in the field.

Upsells, cross-sells, etc are more advanced stuff that
you can apply when you have developed the skills and
judgement on when (and when not) to use them.

HINT: Smart marketers do NOT ALWAYS use upsells
in EVERY sales situation.

Dedicated to mutual success,

Shaun

Toby

I totally disagree. Upsells are there for one thing only " To get more money from you whilst you are in the buying phase"

If a product needs an upsell to make it work it shouldn't be on sale in the first place. Just another trick to fleece a bit more money from buyers in my humble opinion.

Anton

I personally like upsells. I have 2 qualifications for every product I offer.

1. It exceeds expectations

2. It makes me a boat load of money.

Honestly from my experience customers who complain excessively or even refund a product because of an upsell are usually terrible customers (great people 75% of the time) but still TERRIBLE customers. You don't make a boat load of cash with terrible customers.

I can kind of see what you're saying that marketers shouldn't be putting out marketing products without knowing the fundamentals of, well, marketing. It sort of reminds me of people coming on here and asking for basic SEO advice while they have links to their "SEO" services in their signature.

That said, maybe the marketer just didn't want to upsell something on that product. Or maybe he found that he got better conversions offering the whole package at a higher price vs large + small portions (upsell). The particular product could just be a little project too designed to give back while making a little bit of cash.

There are too many variables to say whether or not a marketer who forgoes the upsell in a marketing product is actually a good marketer.

Dennis Gaskill, I totally agree with you 100%

At the very least, being subjected to upsells is an accepted (if not acceptable to all) nuisance of doing business online. It's akin to being bombarded with commercials just so you can watch the Superbowl on TV. Not too many people complain about that. I remember a time when commercials didn't exist on Cable TV. In fact, no commercials was the initial selling point for cable. Now, commercials are all too commonplace there, yet few complain because SLOWLY, we've all be trained to accept them if we want the shows. Thanks for pointing out the importance and acceptability of upsells! Where would we be without them?

Hey Toby,

I completely agree with you. Upsells is a strategy in any online business. It also provides the buyer of better alternatives once he purchases the upfront product.

The only thing online product creators musk keep in mind is the factor of providing upsells that add value to the initial purchase. Not the ones that make it impossible to use the front-end without the upsell.

As long as the front-end delivers the initial sales page promise made by the seller to the buyer, upsells are totally a great way to take the online business to the next level.

Regards,

Aaron Salian

Very good point Toby! People should expect the upsells, and it's not that difficult to use your own judgment as to whether or not you want the upsell. But I can see both sides point of view.

a few things came to mind while I read this thread:

1) most people are complaining about the quality of the upsell, which I don't feel is the point/topic.

2) others are complaining about their experiences with "upsell hell". Again, I feel this is not really the topic.

... both of these are issues about bad upsells.. keep in mind: saying all good marketers should be using upsells is not the same thing as saying everyone who uses upsells is a good marketer.

3) the WF is a world onto it's own.. the average consumer doesn't get up in arms over decent upselling, doesn't cry about his/her product "being held hostage" via an opt-in, etc. WF members and WSO buyers who have been around here for even a modest amount of time are not represntative of the "typical consumer" by any means.

Thanks for all the replies guys! Definitely a very controversial topic and a good one to think about.

Upsells are a way of life for many marketers, but for many newbies it might seem they might feel they are not buying the full product and may wonder why the full product was not offered even at a higher price

So you're saying I should toss up a crappy OTO just to look like I know what I'm doing?

Shouldn't the product and person be judged on the product and person, and not some requirement they include a OTO?

Sometimes people are people first, marketers second. Ever heard of JC Penny? He was one of the greatest marketers of all time. After going public, JC was on the "Board" for Pennys and a vote came up whether to begin a JC Penny charge card.

The vote was 49-1 "for" a charge card. The only dissenting vote was JC himself. He said he knew the card was good for business, but said he was concerned about his customers going into debt by buying things they couldn't afford.

JC put his heart before his wallet. Yet, according to the "logic" of the OP, JC Penny would have no right teaching us anything about making money, since credit is a tool used by virtually every other major retailer.

Maybe some of us that don't have OTOs do so simply because we hate them as customers and don't want to put our own customers through that BS and prefer making a little less money over being a hypocrite?

If you want to use them, then fine, that's your business. However, making public statements insulting the credentials of those that don't use them is a classic logical fallacy known as an "ad hominem attack"...And if you make your own decisions based on illogical assumptions, what should we think about your own advice?

I would like to repeat my opposition to upsells. It makes me feel like I'm getting taken advantage of when I go for a product that costs $35, $45, $55. Then you find yourself being urged to buy an "add on" that often times costs a lot more. I believe it adds to the poor reputation internet marketing has to those not involved in it. If you have to have upsells, you should at least give a hint that the upsell is coming and not have it come out of the blue. It is when it is a complete surprise that I feel taken advantage of.

What if they put everything into the one product rather than hold some of it back to have an upsell?

I think you're right Anjine, the acceptability is more to do with *how* the up-sell is offered.

That being said, several of my products do NOT have upsells...simply because I chose to offer a silver/gold version and forget about taking on the OTO.

I do have to update that some year.

It's all about where you choose to invest your energies and what methodology works best for you.

If you're selling to a MMO audience, offer MRR to a product as a OTO just makes sense (as your customer can then use it as fodder for their business online too).

If you're offering a How To Make Money During the Holidays product, then offering a collection of Holiday templates/graphics/images/etc. for the customers' website...that just makes sense too.

I firmly believe upsells should simply complement the original purchase.

As a consumer, this is what upsells say to me:

"That product I just convinced you to buy isn't as good as I led you to believe. If you really want a full product you need to spend more" - this lowers credibility and I already start to have buyers remorse. Why sell me an incomplete product? Seems unethical to me

It makes me feel like I have just done business with a sleazy, stereotypical used car salesman. If there is a recurring option, you can bet I have no interest in it anymore. I will also be much more aggressive in determining if the product needs to be returned. I don't want a product that was sold as a complete product and now you are telling me I only received part of it.

I don't care what market you are in. If you want to cross sell me, within reason, that is fine. But if you keep telling me that what I just bought from you isn't good enough and I need to pay more for the rest then I won't ever buy from you again.

Apparently every newbie marketer in the MMO niche who employs an upsell in his sales process is thereby an expert marketer.