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Are WSO "Dream Merchants" Really Scamming People?

by JohnMcCabe
189 replies
Before you blast away, hear me out...

I was reading a thread in the War Room just now:

http://www.warriorforum.com/my-ideas...herd-mind.html

And came across this bit of wisdom:

What people really buy is the dream, the idea - never the work that goes along with it. I am probably one of the worst victims of this. I bought the BowFlex because of the dream body the commercial presented. It's still sits in a barn where it was put a week after we bought it. I've bought hundreds of reprint right packages, every time with the same thought of making the easy money by just being able to throw it up. They all still sit in the same folder on my hard drive they have always been in. But yet, I'll by another one soon. It's as if the act of buying alone will claim the goal.

Many People Actually Enjoy The High Of Buying The Dream In The Same Way An Addicted Gambler Enjoys Spending $1000 In A Machine Where You Can Only Win A Maximum Of $500!!
If people buy a dream and never really intend to pursue it, and they get to experience the high of buying, were they really scammed? Or did they get exactly what they really wanted?

Fire up the popcorn machine, and let's have some fun...
#dream merchants #people #scamming #wso
  • Profile picture of the author Istvan Horvath
    My popcorn machine sits in the shed... never unpacked it
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    • Profile picture of the author myob
      .... just sitting on my ass dreaming of fresh popcorn. With butter, easy on the salt.
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    • Profile picture of the author ReachOneMedia
      Originally Posted by Istvan Horvath View Post

      My popcorn machine sits in the shed... never unpacked it
      I'll give you $10 for it lol
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael Mayo
    You asked for it!

    Get your Popcorn Here!



    Have a Great Day!
    Michael
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    • Profile picture of the author myob
      Originally Posted by Michael Mayo View Post

      Get your Popcorn Here!
      Do I have to get up and go get it?
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    • Profile picture of the author Ryan David
      If people buy a dream and never really intend to pursue it, and they get to experience the high of buying, were they really scammed? Or did they get exactly what they really wanted?
      I used to have no sympathy for people that should have the mental capacity to make decisions with money, but made stupid decisions. Now, my old age has softened me a bit. Now I kinda think it goes both ways. Ultimately, the responsiblity in any situation is on the buyer. But that doesn't mean that scumbag sellers shouldn't feel a little guilty. Just like a crack dealer shouldn't put all the blame on the addict.

      But to your question, I don't think there are many buyers that actually KNOW upfront they aren't going to pursue it. They have good intentions.

      Getting excited about a purchase is not unique to MMO products. Several years back I bought a new flatscreen for my basement and couldn't wait for it to arrive. I've probably watched it for maybe 100 hours because I'd rather be upstairs at my house.

      Same thing here.
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  • Profile picture of the author David Keith
    i have always told anyone who asked me for online business advice that i could teach virtually anyone to make a decent living online if they bring EFFORT.

    i think that statement is exactly right on about selling the dream. and while i do think people take advantage of the dreamer mentality, i am a big believer in personal responsibility.

    at some point you decide to either die fat and lazy with the workout machine in the barn, or you decide to go off you ass and do a few pushup and situps and live a better life.

    i learned a long time ago in business that its not my job, nor can i, make sure that other people succeed in their ventures...thats their job.
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    • Profile picture of the author moneycometh
      Originally Posted by owslaw123 View Post

      i have always told anyone who asked me for online business advice that i could teach virtually anyone to make a decent living online if they bring EFFORT.

      i think that statement is exactly right on about selling the dream. and while i do think people take advantage of the dreamer mentality, i am a big believer in personal responsibility.

      at some point you decide to either die fat and lazy with the workout machine in the barn, or you decide to go off you ass and do a few pushup and situps and live a better life.

      i learned a long time ago in business that its not my job, nor can i, make sure that other people succeed in their ventures...thats their job.
      I have to agree with you a point. And that is when I buy a product I have every attention of following through on what the author recommends. I follow thorough for a period of time, even make a sale or two.

      Then I check my email from someone that I've been following and low and behold a new product launch! I read it, watch the video, get enticed with the possibility and viola, my focus get skewed and the target that I've been aiming for is now pushed even further away.

      The way that I've since remedied this situation (because I've done this for years now) when I check my email no matter how enticing the subject line might be or whether it's from someone I know who is probably pitching a great product.

      I simply archive the message to be read 'AFTER' I've completed the project I'm currently working on and making sure that it gets my undivided attention.
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  • Profile picture of the author redbaron13
    My vote is that probably 90%+ are scams, taking advantage of the dreamers. All you need to do is read the reviews of a few WSO's to see a distinct pattern. All are basically the same.
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    • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
      Originally Posted by redbaron13 View Post

      My vote is that probably 90%+ are scams, taking advantage of the dreamers. All you need to do is read the reviews of a few WSO's to see a distinct pattern. All are basically the same.
      But are they "taking advantage of the dreamers" or are they giving them what they really crave?

      I think that a lot of the serial buyers know in their heart of hearts that they are not really going to do anything, but buying another product makes them feel productive. And reading the new product while comparing it with the past products makes them feel smart.

      Productive and Smart are pretty entertaining.

      It's much the same with people who collect stacks of gourmet cookbooks, pore over them for hours at a time, and end up nuking a frozen dinner anyway.

      PS - Thanks to all who replied so far... (conserving my thanks button count so I don't stiff anybody )
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      • Profile picture of the author Ryan David
        Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe View Post

        But are they "taking advantage of the dreamers" or are they giving them what they really crave?
        I don't think selling a one-off product is really a big deal, regardless of the price point. If people buy it, that's their responsibility.

        The stuff that was going on in 2005-2007 was pretty sick. Every week a new launch with fake scarcity,artificially high prices, and MAJOR hype. And when it got to the point where people were then sent to boiler rooms to get soaked even more, well, that's where some shame for the seller SHOULD set in.

        I'm not saying the buyers aren't stupid or that the sellers really owe them anything. But geez....I don't know how they sleep at night.

        Like 5-6 years ago, I saw this seminar that Howie and Dr Mike put on. It was a small group, maybe 10 people, so they went around the room and introduced each other. There was a lady there that apparently had bought TONS of their products and hadn't done ANYTHING to implement it. This seminar was like $5K from what I understood. And I don't know....it's not their fault she hadn't done anything, but I wouldn't take her money. I'd say go do something prior to signing up. That's just me though.
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      • Profile picture of the author Gee S
        Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe View Post

        But are they "taking advantage of the dreamers" or are they giving them what they really crave?

        It's both, they're taking advantage of the dreamers by giving them what they crave. It's like a dealer selling drugs to an addict. Is the dealer right to sell the addict drugs because he craves it?

        Btw, I'm not necessarily talking about the product owners who create maybe a product every few months. The problem is with the WSO creators who create one every two weeks. There are a group who collude and plan when they create WSO's and take turns taking advantage of the same people (as they're on the same list). If you're getting emails from 4-5 "trusted" warriors telling you to buy the same WSO almost everyday, I don't really blame the buyers. They trust these people (right or wrongly) and buy what they recommend.

        One minute they recommend and say

        "Hey buy this WSO on SEO it's the only way to make money"

        Then the next day you'll get a recommendation...

        "Hey, SEO is dead, you need to buy this product on how to create products blah blah blah".

        Oh and it just so happens the recommendations they make (everyday) has an affiliate link. These guys need to provide the people that trust them value, not an obvious affiliate link.

        Guys like Don and Jeremy are perfect examples of how to work WSO's and their list. They provide value, tell you when NOT to buy a product and sometimes...get this....their emails don't have an affiliate link in them! (Shock Horror!!)

        That forum is beginning to turn into these Clickbank launches which most of us despise. It doesn't look good folks.

        There needs to be a cap on the amount of WSO's a product owner can release per month because people are getting swindled and thrown on the buying merry go round and don't even know it. Eventually that forum will get a reputation.....but for the wrong reasons when people wake up and realise they're not making money, just spending it because of people they "trust".
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        • Profile picture of the author Mr Bill
          Originally Posted by G Singh View Post

          ...It's like a dealer selling drugs to an addict. Is the dealer right to sell the addict drugs because he craves it?

          Btw, I'm not necessarily talking about the product owners who create maybe a product every few months. The problem is with the WSO creators who create one every two weeks.


          That forum is beginning to turn into these Clickbank launches which most of us despise. It doesn't look good folks.

          There needs to be a cap on the amount of WSO's a product owner can release per month...
          Truly absurd comments G. I (or any free thinking people) do not need idea or thought or commerce police telling me how many WSOs I can release. Frequency has nothing to do with quality. I'd release a WSO every day if I had that many ways to save people some time or money. Anyone who saves me more than 1 hour of work, any frustration at all or more than $10 or makes me more than $10 is a bargain. If I buy a WSO for $10 and make $20 from it I have realised a 100% return. How could that possibly ever be a bad thing?

          In all my dealing with people who buy and make WSOs I have never once heard anyone say they felt "roped in" or taken advantage of in any way. Never once have I ever heard anyone ever claim to be looking for a shiny button or instant solution either. In some cases we might chuckle at the headline but honestly, I think the people you are trying to "protect" with your moral stance don't even exist and are a figment of your own imagination.

          Every single person I have spoken to (and I speak to a LOT of WSO buyers - probably more than most) has found the WSO section to be great value and packed full of useful ways to make or save time or money and the refund button keeps every other normal person happy.

          I see a lot of people underestimating the intelligence of the people on this forum and it urks me every time I see it. We buy, we're happy, if not we refund. No big deal. Even the thinnest of WSOs is helpful to me in some way. If I was paying $1,995 - that would be different but less than $20 is not ever worth insulting people for. Drug dealers? Drug takers? Ummm a TAD harsh don't you think?

          Thanks but I do not need protecting and no one I have ever spoken to about WSOs feels the need to be "protected". Thanks anyway. :rolleyes:
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          • Profile picture of the author sal64
            Great perspective Bill.

            Ironically, many of those decrying WSO's will happily part with hundreds for what are essentially glorified WSO's.

            I tend to pick and choose which ones I buy.

            By the way, there are quite a few on here that do release wso's almost every 2 weeks.

            One of them is Paul Coleman (aka ic7). I am a religious buyer of his stuff for one simple reason... he provides great information.

            Do I take action on each report? No. But I pick the eyes out of them for helpful hints and resources.

            Like you said, it saves me hours of research... and believe me, I DO value my time with two zeroes on the end.

            But hey, let's not get facts get in the way of a good argument.

            Sal

            Originally Posted by WSOHelp View Post

            Truly absurd comments G. I (or any free thinking people) do not need idea or thought or commerce police telling me how many WSOs I can release. Frequency has nothing to do with quality. I'd release a WSO every day if I had that many ways to save people some time or money. Anyone who saves me more than 1 hour of work, any frustration at all or more than $10 or makes me more than $10 is a bargain. If I buy a WSO for $10 and make $20 from it I have realised a 100% return. How could that possibly ever be a bad thing?

            In all my dealing with people who buy and make WSOs I have never once heard anyone say they felt "roped in" or taken advantage of in any way. Never once have I ever heard anyone ever claim to be looking for a shiny button or instant solution either. In some cases we might chuckle at the headline but honestly, I think the people you are trying to "protect" with your moral stance don't even exist and are a figment of your own imagination.

            Every single person I have spoken to (and I speak to a LOT of WSO buyers - probably more than most) has found the WSO section to be great value and packed full of useful ways to make or save time or money and the refund button keeps every other normal person happy.

            I see a lot of people underestimating the intelligence of the people on this forum and it urks me every time I see it. We buy, we're happy, if not we refund. No big deal. Even the thinnest of WSOs is helpful to me in some way. If I was paying $1,995 - that would be different but less than $20 is not ever worth insulting people for. Drug dealers? Drug takers? Ummm a TAD harsh don't you think?

            Thanks but I do not need protecting and no one I have ever spoken to about WSOs feels the need to be "protected". Thanks anyway. :rolleyes:
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            • Profile picture of the author Exel
              Are WSOs scamming people? I really don't think they are, considering I
              bought a few and got exactly what was advertized. But just in case some
              are, I have this principle and I accepted it fully, and not only for WSO or
              IM, but for every situation imaginable.

              If someone scams me, I don't hold him responsible. I consider myself
              responsible for allowing him the opportunity. I see it as valuable experience
              that will prevent me from making same mistake ever again. Needless to say,
              I'm almost never scammed, because I don't give them them the opportunity.

              If people make a mistake (in this case being scammed) and not learn
              anything from it in order to prevent the same mistake in the future, they
              deserve everything that comes their way and to be scammed one million
              times. Unfortunately, most people are just like that. They don't want to
              learn from their mistakes. They don't want to accept reality and take
              responsibility. That gives plenty of opportunity for scammers, which is
              exactly why there are so many in every area.

              My advice is - take responsibility for your actions, learn from your mistakes,
              never to repeat them again.

              Best of luck,

              Exel
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          • Profile picture of the author Patrick Pretty
            Originally Posted by WSOHelp View Post

            If I buy a WSO for $10 and make $20 from it I have realised a 100% return. How could that possibly ever be a bad thing?
            The WF and other marketing sites have nightmare stories aplenty. So does eBay. So do the court dockets in venue after venue. Lots of IM-related litigation these days, some of it worrisome for the future of the trade.

            It is my belief that both Google and PayPal have been signaling that a sea change is coming. Certain spheres of the marketplace have evolved in ways that are dangerous and possibly could become unmanageable.

            Your $10 expenditure and $20 return could prove to be a bad thing in any number of ways. I pose these as hypotheticals, but ones based at least in part on current events:

            Your purchase could be for something that is BlueFart or outright illegal, but not instantly recognizable as such. You spend your $10, make $20 in return -- and find out later that your site has been de-indexed or that your payment processor wants to lock you out or that your registrar/host has and/or wants to suspend you.

            Or maybe you find out after you make your $20 that the Post Office has a certified letter for you from an attorney -- and your sudden legal problem is all traceable to the $10 WSO you bought that taught you how to siphon traffic by registering a domain name that is essentially the same or largely similar to a trademarked brand.

            Or maybe a WSO or other IM product encouraged theft, but sugarcoated it or sanitized it by coming up with another name for theft: "article writing tips," for example -- when the tips consist of ways to infringe copyrights or to turn writers and publishing companies into sources of free labor.

            Or maybe you spent $10 and didn't have the time to earn anything, but now suffer from the monumental inconvenience and embarrassment of having to open a both a new payment-processing account and new bank account because you were susceptible to this sort of message and incorporated this sort of advice: PayPal is the devil. It is out to get you. To make doubly sure you are protected, sweep the money out of your PayPal account and put it into your bank account. And then open a second bank account and sweep the money you just swept into your first account into the second account to prevent PayPal from reaching into your first account and grabbing your cash. You might even want to open a third account to make triply sure.

            You don't discover how bad the WSO or other IM-product advice you acted on actually was until you go to your bank on a Friday at closing time to get some money for the weekend. The usually pleasant teller appears to be nervous and tells you the manager needs to speak to you. After you sit down with the manager, she informs you that the bank no longer wants your business because of a pattern of "suspicious" transactions -- and she asks you to destroy or surrender your debit card and hands you a cashier's check that makes you whole.

            It's Friday. The banks are now closed. You're not broke in a technical sense, but a cashier's check you'll have to deposit elsewhere because your own bank no longer wants your business isn't doing you any good. It may do you some good on Monday when you lug it to another bank, but there may be hassles there, too.

            In any event, you leave your now-former bank -- and on the way home it hits you: "My God!" you think. "Do they think I'm laundering money?"

            On Saturday you pick up the morning paper and read a story about an Internet Marketer who stole a total of $10 million from a total of 1,000 people, but stayed under the radar before finally getting caught by constantly moving and shifting money between and among accounts. The story points out that some banks have failed or are on the verge of failing because of their links to IM schemes and money-laundering.

            As one final hypothetical example, let's say you spend $200 for an SEO package that promises the world and actually delivers. You find out later, however, that the SEO "expert" was deploying a reckless BlueFart strategy by which her "SEO" service included the willynilly spamming of Blogs, .edu sites, popular domains and junk sites -- and that her ISP got complaints and shut her down after discovering she was cloaking her IP through a series of proxies so she could perform "SEO" via mass spamming without getting caught.

            You initially were pleased with your newfound SERPS penetration, but now discover not only that you've lost the love, but also that you have the equivalent of the J.C. Penney PR problem:

            http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/13/bu...pagewanted=all

            It gets even worse because you are a part-time IMer; your real job is as the pastor of the local church, and you turned to IM because your church wages are insufficient to meet the needs of your family and the congregation itself is struggling because of high unemployment in your town and a devastating plunge in property values.

            After your Sunday sermon, the worst gossip in the entire congregation whispers in your ear as you greet her on the sidewalk that leads to the parking lot and her 1978 Buick in pristine condition.

            "What's this I hear about your website being linked to pornography and gambling sites?" she softly inquires.

            Naturally you're horrified.

            Later in the afternoon, your hometown newspaper calls you and says its wants to send over a reporter to get "your side of the story." Your truthful side of the story is that you paid a contractor for a service and wasn't aware that anything untoward was going on, and you're alarmed that, after 25 years of unquestioned integrity in your community, someone seems to want to question the thing you value most.

            Patrick
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            • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
              Patrick, let's extend your bank hypothetical one more step...

              You arrive home, clutching the cashier's check in your hand, and see a black SUV parked in your driveway. You go inside, and your wife (who has obviously been crying) says, "Honey, these men from the FBI/DEA/Homeland Security want to talk to you about that Internet stuff you do. They've already taken the computer and scared the kids half to death. What's going on?"
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              • Profile picture of the author Tom B
                Banned
                There is responsibility on both sides of the coin here. I don't see a problem with the seller using the dream to sell as long as they keep their promise.

                If a seller sells a push button, million dollar over night maker and it turns out to be a turd in the box then it is part of the seller that is the problem here.

                The buyer should know that pushing a button won't give you a million dollars but only leave their hands all brown and smelly.

                This is a major problem in our society. No one wants to take responsibility. They don't want to work.

                Some buyers and some sellers want easy cash and when something goes wrong it is never their fault.

                Sellers could be building a business instead of worrying about dimes and nickels.

                Buyers could be building a business instead of jumping from one $7 get rich quick scheme after another.

                By selling the dream, you have to be very careful that you are not crossing the reality line. As long as your product helps them get to the dream you are selling then pitch away.
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              • Profile picture of the author Patrick Pretty
                Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe View Post

                Patrick, let's extend your bank hypothetical one more step...

                You arrive home, clutching the cashier's check in your hand, and see a black SUV parked in your driveway. You go inside, and your wife (who has obviously been crying) says, "Honey, these men from the FBI/DEA/Homeland Security want to talk to you about that Internet stuff you do. They've already taken the computer and scared the kids half to death. What's going on?"
                Yes, John. Let's extend the hypothetical above. I'll add a real-life kernel from a 2010 case for background.

                In Philly, an IMer was accused of obstructing justice even as the FBI was carrying out the raid. The specific allegation is that, as the search was being conducted, the guy hopped on a computer and transferred $225,000 to prevent it from being seized.

                In the strange-but-true category, things got even crazier.

                The guy had an upcoming product launch. He did not delay it, despite the felony charges against him and a civil complaint that represented the government's opening of a second line of attack.

                The government suspected he had hidden a pile of cash and had a bunch of shell companies and bank acccunts, so it kept a close watch on him while he awaited trial on both the criminal and the civil matters. Eventually investigators determined that he established a bogus Facebook identity to keep his launch intact and used a "flurry of incorporations" in a bid to stay under the radar.

                Here's the kicker:

                In 1986, the same guy was convicted of wire fraud and larceny in Delaware. In 1987, he was convicted of forgery and larceny in New Jersey -- and mail fraud in Pennsylvania.

                In 1996, he tallied another conviction in Pennsylvania, this one for criminal conspiracy. Five years later, in 2001, he was convicted of bank fraud.

                There were two bankruptcy filings along the way, along with a judgment from 1990 in which he was charged civilly in yet another fraud case.

                BTW, the launch never occurred: The court-appointed receiver seized the website.

                Patrick
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      • Profile picture of the author vitalgirl
        Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe View Post

        But are they "taking advantage of the dreamers" or are they giving them what they really crave?

        I think that a lot of the serial buyers know in their heart of hearts that they are not really going to do anything, but buying another product makes them feel productive. And reading the new product while comparing it with the past products makes them feel smart.
        If there was no 'taking advantage' marketers wouldn't feel it necesary to appeal to hype on hyperbole to the seeming exclusion of all else (inc sometimes the quality of the product) ... you don't need to persuade a junkie to buy crack.

        They wouldn't arm themselves with their 'hypnotic' 'ninja' sales copy ... because they wouldn't need to. They wouldn't need to appeal to the irrational over the rational, they wouldn't need to convince us that they and they alone hold the 'key', the 'secret' to 'unlocking' the dream. {with the implication that *you* can't do it on your own with what you have}

        People can be distractable, and there is no place anywhere for an abdication of peronsal responsbility (unless you're a politician or a bureacrat or ... well, you get the idea :-))

        But marketers can be manipulative. I think the better ones are just so good at it that people don't often realise it.

        And from what I've heard, crack dealers don't hit you with OTO's before they even hand their product over. At least they wait till you've used their crack before they try and sell you some more...

        now - would that lead to an interesting discussion on the ethics of marketers vs the ethics of crack dealers :-)
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    • Profile picture of the author BlueCollar
      Originally Posted by redbaron13 View Post

      My vote is that probably 90%+ are scams, taking advantage of the dreamers. All you need to do is read the reviews of a few WSO's to see a distinct pattern. All are basically the same.
      Agree wholeheartedly. I've purchased a few wordpress tools and have been happy with them but most everything in there is worthless.
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  • Profile picture of the author da1fitz
    After all of the popcorn replies what should I say hmmmmmm.

    Well back to the original context, I originally bought an IM product pursuing site flipping and thought that was my way, until I bought other WSOs that contradicted the original product. So I gave up and found a CB affiliate program and thought this is my way forward so I grabbed loads of affiliate marketing WSOs, then I messed up and looked at other options, n kept doing this until I became unemployed, and suddenly couldn't afford popcorn anymore, but realised that the basics of each of the above all held the key...

    Click! ...
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    • Profile picture of the author AdwordsMogul
      Originally Posted by da1fitz View Post


      ...
      Well back to the original context, I originally bought an IM product pursuing site flipping and thought that was my way, until I bought other WSOs that contradicted the original product. ...
      That's not necessarily a valid argument.

      Different methods may have different underlying principles. Yes, human nature is the same, but ways to get an emotional reaction are different for different people.

      When you buy a product, keep in mind that there is only one way to find out what really works - and that's by actual seeing an idea through (a.k.a taking action)
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  • Profile picture of the author timpears
    We all have good intentions, but most of us get side tracked before we ever put a method to use. There is always another shiny object that is going to make like and work much easier and make us more money. And there are many of us that will fall for it over and over again, because of that dream.

    If we would just get to work on the last one we bought, we would probably make a decent living. But the lure of the next shiny object is always there. Every day there are a dozen or more popping up in the WSO forum or Clickbank or other places.
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    • Profile picture of the author Suellen Reitz
      Originally Posted by timpears View Post

      We all have good intentions, but most of us get side tracked before we ever put a method to use. There is always another shiny object that is going to make like and work much easier and make us more money. And there are many of us that will fall for it over and over again, because of that dream.

      If we would just get to work on the last one we bought, we would probably make a decent living. But the lure of the next shiny object is always there. Every day there are a dozen or more popping up in the WSO forum or Clickbank or other places.
      People love to buy... but no one likes being sold to.... That said... as long as the sales pitch is not to hyped.. and it sounds real... people will buy as long as the sales keep coming. The act of buying actually releases endorphins and makes you feel good. This is the same release known as a "runners high".
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  • Profile picture of the author Daniel Rickfold
    Most people don't do sh*t and...
    (this may sound funny)
    IT'S NOT THEIR FAULT!

    It's education that's the problem. Look at how the world is shaped today. We're taught to buy ourselves everything from since we're a child.

    We get sick. We buy our health through a PILL, and amazingly, the cold disappears. We want to get somewhere fast we buy a car, TRANSPORTATION. Before there were any airplanes we used to do 30 day voyages across the sea, now we BOUGHT our way into something better.

    THEN, if we're ugly, hey! who says you can't buy beauty? Get your fat sucked out of you, your nose crushed into place, your teeth realigned, your hair colored, all can be fixed! with a price. You walk in fat, you get your fat sucked out of you and you walk out slim!

    The amazing thing is some of the stuff works!

    We want to feel better we buy some nice chocolate, we don't want to prepare our own food, we go to the restaurant, we want to be entertained we get a TV, we don't want to wash our own clothes we buy a washing machine, etc. etc. etc.

    The thing is, we are TAUGHT to do these things. We're taught that when we have a problem we can just buy a fix for it!

    And it's nothing wrong with that... this WORKS to some extent...

    Unfortunately...
    NOT EVERYTHING WORKS THIS WAY!
    At least NOT YET!

    But even though not everything works this way, most people gotten into this MINDSET of simply thinking that if they're purchasing something they're on their way to getting better and having the problem fixed.

    It's CREATOR vs BENEFITOR! (is that a word?)

    And this is what's stopping most people from succeeding in this online marketing. The fact that they think that just purchasing something gets them closer to a goal.

    Well it doesn't!

    But it CAN! IF you actually USE what you're getting. USE THAT PRODUCT. This is INFORMATION we're buying here, or little fixes and help, it can be useful if used, but WE need to assemble the washing machine this time!

    Because in this business, even though we can use different parts of someone's idea, time or resources, we're the creators! We need to assemble everything together.

    So go ahead and assemble your business!
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    • Profile picture of the author Ram
      I like the way Alan refers to himself as a "victim" of Bowflex's marketing and then admits he never used the damn thing.

      Of course, he really isn't saying that. But so many people do have that mentality. They are eternal "victims" - even if they don't follow the instructions.

      As long as your product will do what you say it will do, you are not scamming anyone. As far as I recall, Bowflex always said you had to use the thing for it to work.

      Same with most infoproducts. You have to put the info to use for it to be any good. if the buyer does not, that's not the seller's fault.
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    Why would one adult be responsible for another just because they are in sales? I agree completely - if a product works as it is purported to, then there is no scam, just customers who need to get a grip on reality.

    The day I have to be responsible for another adult who can't handle their money or make a discernment that they will not put a product to use that they choose to buy of their own free will -- is the day I start demanding babysitting payments.
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    • Profile picture of the author Karen Connell
      Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

      Why would one adult be responsible for another just because they are in sales? I agree completely - if a product works as it is purported to, then there is no scam, just customers who need to get a grip on reality.

      The day I have to be responsible for another adult who can't handle their money or make a discernment that they will not put a product to use that they choose to buy of their own free will -- is the day I start demanding babysitting payments.
      My sentiments enitrely.

      A good quote that I saw recently:

      "never mistake activity for acomplishment"

      I have have been guilty of being the 'perpetual student' in the past but am now focused on the end result. I'll willing buy into a 'dream' as long as the product delivers what it says it will deliver.Then it's up to me to implement the method.

      As long as the product that I have purchased is everything as described in the sales page, then it's my problem if I don't achieve the results.

      Achieving my dreams are my responsibility.
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      • Profile picture of the author ShayB
        I read through the whole thread. Holy cats.

        You know, I sold over 2000 copies of a WSO that was less than 5 bucks.

        It laid out a complete biz model in it. One that I'd used personally. One that I had a lot of personal satisfaction in doing, and one that made me good money while doing something worthwhile.

        Some people bought it because they were curious. (Due to the nature of the biz model, the sales copy was somewhat vague, but I answered a lot of questions via PM.)

        Some people bought it just to be "part of the crowd." (It had gotten WSO of the Day.)

        Some people got it because it was less than 5 bucks.

        But there were some who bought it because they wanted a way to make money and actually did the work involved. And they are making a very nice living at it. The emails I get warm my heart.

        IMHO, everyone got what they wanted - it depended on what they were looking for as to what they got out of it. The product was the same for everyone - what they sought was very different.

        Why on earth would I sell something like that for less than 5 bucks?

        Well....it's the way I wanted to do it. I think that it's a good thing to be able to offer something that's actionable without needing a lot of money to invest.
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        • Profile picture of the author Karen Connell
          Originally Posted by ShayRockhold View Post

          But there were some who bought it because they wanted a way to make money and actually did the work involved. And they are making a very nice living at it. The emails I get warm my heart.
          As Shay herself says, the sales copy was somewhat vague but I bought this on the strength of a couple of excellent reviews.

          Yes, I was curious, which is not the best motivation for spending money but I was prepared to risk $5.

          This is one of the better WSO's that I purchased because it played to my strengths so I was motivated right from the beginning. I earn a good amount doing this because I got to work and made it happen.

          Thanks Shay!

          This 'Dream Merchant' is definately not 'scamming' anyone!

          I made my own decision and would not have run off crying if the product was not a method that interested me.

          If you can't afford to risk the money - don't buy it!
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    • Profile picture of the author Mary Wilhite
      Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

      Why would one adult be responsible for another just because they are in sales? I agree completely - if a product works as it is purported to, then there is no scam, just customers who need to get a grip on reality.

      The day I have to be responsible for another adult who can't handle their money or make a discernment that they will not put a product to use that they choose to buy of their own free will -- is the day I start demanding babysitting payments.
      I agree with Sal,

      As product creators it is our responsibility to bring the truth on how things work in our niche not just by giving concepts, but by doing things and then sharing others how we made things happen.

      Do this and you're not deceiving anybody.
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      • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
        The coffee example is a good argument for using one's brain for something besides keeping one's ears apart...

        The cup warns people that the coffee is HOT - in multiple languages.

        It comes with a cover to keep people from spilling it on themsleves.

        Unfortunately, it does not come with a big warning that says "do not pour hot coffee on your crotch"...

        If I ignore that warning, take that cover off the cup, stick it between my legs, and hit the gas, why should I be surprised when I scald my nads off?

        On my last engineering job, I was talking to one of the company's lawyers about a warning sticker for one of our products. He told me a story about why lawn mowers have to have a warning label telling people not to stick their hands under the mower when it's running.

        Seems two neighbors got really bored with trimming the hedge that separated their yards. One of them got the bright idea to fire up the power mower, and each of them would pick it up from one side. They could then lift the mower up and walk it along the top of the hedge and be done in minutes.

        This worked fine until one of them tripped, tried to catch the mower, and severed several of his fingers. He sued the manufacturer, saying they should have warned him that putting his hand into the path of the moving blade could injure him.

        Must have been the same idiot judge as quoted above, because he won.

        1,000 years from now, archeologists are going to dig up some of our products and write academic papers about the low mental capacity of the average citizen of this time...
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      • Profile picture of the author AdwordsMogul
        Originally Posted by Mary Wilhite View Post

        I agree with Sal,

        As product creators it is our responsibility to bring the truth on how things work in our niche not just by giving concepts, but by doing things and then sharing others how we made things happen.

        Do this and you're not deceiving anybody.
        A lot of people underestimate the discipline needed to create a product, or to apply a certain strategy.

        For example, it's totally realistic to make $h!tl0ads of money working 4 hours a day. However, most people cannot maintain a routine that allows them to work productively for those hours.

        So people read the information they get, but with the wrong mindset. They end up thinking they've been scammed, because their belief system cannot grasp the reality of life.

        Having said that, there are many people who will lie you in the eye just to take your money. And many do.
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  • Profile picture of the author vk3
    :long sigh: - well.. I think this gets into the ethical realm for most people..

    Unfortunately, that is the true.. selling the dream works, no doubt. But, to a certain extent, if the product really does deliver, and would help the buyer on their journey, then I personally feel like it's up to the buyer to take action..

    It's basically true with selling anything.. if you want total piece of mind, you'll have to avoid selling - it's basically a gamer of numbers..

    With that being said though, you can also do things to help buyers get started.. I've noticed it helps a lot when you do an introduction, and then give them small things to work on, so they can build up momentum.

    Anyways, that's about all I have to say - everything else gets too personal, and we all just care about ourselves anyways.

    EDIT: one other note.. if the seller is "selling the dream" and they don't live the dream.. then I think that's quite unethical, especially if it's a MMO product.. if they're living it, I think they have the right to.
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  • Profile picture of the author Istvan Horvath
    If anybody ever went to a seminar/crash course/whatever teaching sales in real life... you know they always teach you to sell the dream. Not the product but the BIG DREAM!

    If it's a car - the dream of speeding faster then anyone else on the Autobahn...
    If it's investment - the dream of having a comfortable retirement...
    If it's life insurance - the dream that your loved ones will be taken care of when the truck hits you...
    If it's a bubble-jet printer - the dream of having beautifully printed fliers and whatnot...
    If it's time-share - the dream of vacationing in luxury places all around the world...

    The whole IM thing is just mimicking what already has been invented offline. Have you ever watched a TV commercial selling the simplest thing? Do it next time, instead of going for another beer or to the washroom

    It sounds like somebody reading (very fast) a long salesletter:
    - the problem
    - the solution
    - but wait, we'll double the offer
    - 30 days moneybackguarantee
    - call now and have your CC ready
    - only 17 left

    P.S. I am selling the "dream" that you will not make any more mistakes with your WP sites
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    • Profile picture of the author Vanessa Reece
      If anybody ever went to a seminar/crash course/whatever teaching sales in real life... you know they always teach you to sell the dream. Not the product but the BIG DREAM!
      So true. I was in offline shop floor sales for over ten years, in a highly competitive industry. On my first day's training it was exactly about selling the dream.

      I know we had to use the word 'imagine' a lot when selling.
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      • Profile picture of the author paulie888
        Originally Posted by Vanessa Reece View Post

        So true. I was in offline shop floor sales for over ten years, in a highly competitive industry. On my first day's training it was exactly about selling the dream.

        I know we had to use the word 'imagine' a lot when selling.
        This is a classic, tried and true copywriting practice that has been employed for many, many years (because it works really well). Whether this is done in person or through sales copy, this is a quintessential marketing technique that should garner you plenty of sales (assuming the product or service does deliver on its promises) for the long term if employed ethically and responsibly.
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  • Profile picture of the author Patrick
    I had started a similar thread a couple of months ago, and it was deleted. I am still wondering why it was deleted.

    Its a common practice "some" people do. Just after releasing their WSO, they will come to the main thread and say "hey i earned this much, hey i earned that much", followed by some astonishing remarks and congratulations by some people who have 0 posts ( their own accounts but differnet id).

    And all their signatures will be leading to that WSO.
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  • Profile picture of the author mikemcmillan
    When I've helped people with sales letters I've always told them, sell the dream, not the product. That's just good marketing. We all flux in and out between the life of our dreams and our real life. It's great when the two come together.

    I have no problem if the product is actually capable of delivering on the dream that was promised. If it doesn't in a real way... then it's a scam.

    Sell 'em on the dream and deliver a product to help them achieve that dream. Unfortunately, a lot of the biggest WSO vendors have got the "sell the dream" thing down quite well. It's the part about delivering on the dream that falls apart often.

    So John, I agree 100% with what you said. (I've forgotten exactly what you said, but yes--I agree).

    Forget the popcorn. I've got red & green peppers, sweet onions, garlic, and tomatoes with keilbasa over a plate of rice steaming until Tiger baseball comes on at 7. Yeah, those Tigers! --Mike
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  • Profile picture of the author E. Brian Rose
    Mike Carraway (winebuddy) used the metaphor of a magic shop at the Warrior Event. He said that people often buy magic tricks just to see how the trick is done.
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    • Profile picture of the author cestrian
      yes i agree with you mikemc selling the dream is what thier good at without it they wuldn't make a dime
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  • Profile picture of the author ColinChia
    Just turn on your TV!

    The dream is being SOLD to everyone all over the world everyday...

    Would McDonalds be as successful as they are today if it was advertised as the truth “Fat, Greasy Food with Absolutely no health benefits?” probably not!

    Who is responsible the Marketer or the Consumer?
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  • Profile picture of the author suigeneris
    I think it depends on the situation and the type of product you are selling... Here's a for instance..

    #1. If you are with your daughter @ the Amusement Park and you buy her magical seahorse that grow in a week [which we all know never survive and often times never even make it out the box!].. then you Sir just bought a dream. But a harmless dream that served it's purpose. [OK]

    #2. You are a used car salesman and a guy comes in who obviously has a life that necessitates a minivan and you convince and sell him a sports car that goes 200 mph... [NOT OK]

    That's my take on it. Now the logistics of determining which is which is something else entirely...
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    • Profile picture of the author E. Brian Rose
      Originally Posted by suigeneris View Post


      #2. You are a used car salesman and a guy comes in who obviously has a life that necessitates a minivan and you convince and sell him a sports car that goes 200 mph... [NOT OK]
      Not ok for who? The salesman or the guy that made an irresponsible choice?
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  • Profile picture of the author Rach72
    Lol - sometimes I am sure that the vendor has spent far more time on the sales page than the product itself!

    But does that make it a scam?

    If the vendor is 'selling the dream' knowing that their product will do little to provide that dream then yes I would call it a scam.

    BUT

    If the vendor knows that what they are selling will function in the way that they advertise that it will, when used according to instructions, and realistically provide the results that they advertise then it is not a scam.

    If in doubt only buy products that have a refund option!
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  • Profile picture of the author LarryC
    << If people buy a dream and never really intend to pursue it, and they get to experience the high of buying, were they really scammed? >>

    Part of the dream usually includes the idea that you don't have to pursue it -it will just come to you effortlessly once you obtain the magical solution. Sometimes it's a thin line between a scam and a legitimate product with great copy. That's true of all advertising, though, not just WSOs.
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    • Profile picture of the author vitalgirl
      Originally Posted by LarryC View Post

      Part of the dream usually includes the idea that you don't have to pursue it -it will just come to you effortlessly once you obtain the magical solution.
      Is that really part of the dream or part of the sales copy -the way that it is associated with the dream it is usually positioned as a solution. You play by inference and you play by association - but you still play.

      The sales copy creates an expectation of a product. I think as has been said earlier in this thread, a lot of the time the two don't match.
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  • Profile picture of the author TimGross
    It's extremely important to differentiate terms:

    Selling The Dream: Pitching the best potential end result a prospect could get by buying a product

    Scamming: An illegal, deceptive way of tricking a potential prospect into buying something under false pretenses

    They are nowhere near synonymous, although "Scamming" is a subset of "Selling The Dream", albeit in an illegal manner.

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  • Profile picture of the author tpw
    A wise man I know says that as sellers, "we should sell people what they want, then give them what they need."
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    • Profile picture of the author E. Brian Rose
      Originally Posted by tpw View Post

      A wise man I know says that as sellers, "we should sell people what they want, then give them what they need."
      Was that wise man your marriage councilor?
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      Good ad copy - or an outrageous headline promise - can't convince you to buy anything. It leads you to create a dream vision in your own mind - and that dream appeals because it is YOUR vision of what YOU want to happen in YOUR life.

      I found long ago I could avoid buying many things if I just waited 24 hours to make the purchase. From clothing to furniture to IM products, often that dream in your mind becomes more realistic in a day's time.

      Very few wild dreams survive a cooling off time period.

      kay
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      • Profile picture of the author CMCarlin
        Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

        Good ad copy - or an outrageous headline promise - can't convince you to buy anything. It leads you to create a dream vision in your own mind - and that dream appeals because it is YOUR vision of what YOU want to happen in YOUR life.

        I found long ago I could avoid buying many things if I just waited 24 hours to make the purchase. From clothing to furniture to IM products, often that dream in your mind becomes more realistic in a day's time.

        Very few wild dreams survive a cooling off time period.

        kay

        Which makes a dime sale, or any scarcity tactic all the more powerful. It re-enforces the desire to "get it now" and caters to instant gratification.
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        • Profile picture of the author Kay King
          Any copywriter knows the psychological power of ad copy fades quickly if the prospect leaves without buying.

          If you read the copy, wait 24 hrs and then make your decision - it's one thing. If you read the copy AGAIN after 24 hrs it might only reinforce the dream and put you back to square one.
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  • Profile picture of the author sal64
    Of course they but the dream.

    The whole sales and marketing industry is based on selling a dream and the perceived benefits of a product.

    What was that stat again about buying on emotion?

    Whilst I hate hyped lies, there has be some element of Caveat Emptor when buying a WSO.

    In reality, almost everyone does it. Just look at people who line up at 2am just to be the first to own the latest Apple gadget. Is it that good? Or do they want to feel they belong to an exclusive group?

    On a side note...

    I used to do speaking gigs selling my real estate rehabbing program.

    There were multiple speakers at the event. Here's the rub...

    My system was all about making smaller, almost guaranteed results and building a lucrative portfolio.

    Another speaker was all about how to have your free house by becoming a developer and buying and developing large tracts of estates. She explained how in 2 years you can have a $1m home for free. Never mind that this sort of venture is beyond the realms of 98% of the population...

    She outsold me 9 : 1.

    So there's your answer.
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  • Profile picture of the author MissLauraCatella
    People love buying (yet hate being sold to).

    For some, WSOs and info products can become just another thing one gets addicted to buying, especially with WSOs getting cheaper, and cheaper.

    It's like how I think "Ohhh, I have some extra cash. Let me buy a lip gloss." I don't need any more f'king lipgloss. Most people don't need any more info products.

    Generally the act of buying is the thrill, and that's the moment endorphins get released. The work one has to do after buying is not nearly as fun.

    If there's a money-back guarantee that the seller actually fulfills, you're never scammed.
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  • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
    Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe View Post

    If people buy a dream and never really intend to pursue it, and they get to experience the high of buying, were they really scammed? Or did they get exactly what they really wanted?
    A couple years ago, a gentleman approached me in the parking lot of a drugstore and made me a proposal. He needed car repairs, but he had no cash, only a $50 gift card. So he suggested that he buy what I was going to buy on this gift card, and then I could give him $50 and he would give me both the gift card and my stuff. He could even show me the receipt which would display the balance of the gift card.

    Now, this is an old con. Basically, you steal a stack of "rechargeable" gift cards from a store (which do not work because they've not been activated), then buy another one. You use the one you bought to show the mark it's a completely full $50 gift card, then swap it for one of the empty ones to make the exchange.

    In this manner, you sell worthless stolen gift cards for $50 a pop to people who will not discover your trickery until you are long gone. Once you've got their money, you "top off" the gift card to $50 again so you can pluck the next chicken.

    I agreed to this scenario, not because I didn't know about the con, but because I knew about it. I'd heard about this trick, but never actually seen it performed. Basically, the grifter needs to somehow swap the cards right in front of me without my noticing. And if he can do it, I thought, if he can pull the change without me seeing... well, I'd pay $50 for that. So I picked up about $15 worth of stuff and handed it over to him to buy with the card.

    He did an absolutely incompetent job and may as well have jumped up and down shouting "look at me, I'm switching the cards." I guess most people are really stupid and don't see that, which wouldn't surprise me, but the guy had no skill whatsoever. So instead of giving him $50, I gave him $20 and told him to just keep the card.

    But let's imagine he'd done a good job and I'd given him $50. I got exactly what I wanted: I got to see him run the con. BUT:

    - That's still a con
    - He's still a cheat
    - It's still against the law

    It doesn't matter how happy the customer is. It matters how honest the vendor is. There are marketers out there who sell me stuff with false claims and promises they never keep. I'm still very happy with what I got from them and what I learned in their products, but that doesn't change the basic reality that they did not deliver.
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    • Profile picture of the author bizlinkx
      I personally never understood why someone would put forth all the time and effort into creating an ebook or opportunity , just so they can scam others. Being the victim of a scam or two in my day , I always wondered why some people would'nt put forth the same effort into creating something worthwhile.

      I simple hate the feeling of ordering a product only to find out I've been the victim of the bait and switch, or their something missing from the program or worse, it has nothing to do with the product you thought you
      were ordering.


      On the other hand when you find a great opportunity, I believe it's your
      responsibilty to atleast put forth the effort to try it out and see it through.

      If at first you don't succeed it doesn't mean it was a scam, It may just mean you need to try a little harder.

      I know some people who never even order the program, system or opportunity and they are saying its a scam when they never tried it out.


      I guess in the end they all sound great on paper.

      It's like the law of attraction , so many people think they can just wish, and hope and imagine things into existence.

      Sorry to say but nothing beats good ole fashion action speaks loader than words.
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      • Profile picture of the author Alan Petersen
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      • Profile picture of the author moneymicg
        Originally Posted by bizlinkx View Post

        I personally never understood why someone would put forth all the time and effort into creating an ebook or opportunity , just so they can scam others. Being the victim of a scam or two in my day , I always wondered why some people would'nt put forth the same effort into creating something worthwhile.

        I simple hate the feeling of ordering a product only to find out I've been the victim of the bait and switch, or their something missing from the program or worse, it has nothing to do with the product you thought you
        were ordering.


        On the other hand when you find a great opportunity, I believe it's your
        responsibilty to atleast put forth the effort to try it out and see it through.

        If at first you don't succeed it doesn't mean it was a scam, It may just mean you need to try a little harder.

        I know some people who never even order the program, system or opportunity and they are saying its a scam when they never tried it out.


        I guess in the end they all sound great on paper.

        It's like the law of attraction , so many people think they can just wish, and hope and imagine things into existence.

        Sorry to say but nothing beats good ole fashion action speaks loader than words.
        I think you hit the point exactly. there are just way too many offers, especially in the IM arena where the product is pure vapor ware or just some guys "theory" at best. Then he pays someone for a good enough to convert sales page to get people into his funnel. then he makes the purchaser feel like it's their fault the "product" doesn't work because they-the purchaser- can't afford all the other products you would need to purchase in addition, to get the first guys "product/theory" to work.
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  • Profile picture of the author drmani
    Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe View Post

    If people buy a dream and never really intend to pursue it, and they get to experience the high of buying, were they really scammed? Or did they get exactly what they really wanted?

    Fire up the popcorn machine, and let's have some fun...
    Jay Abraham put it nicely in the introductory lecture of his
    26 week mentoring program when he classed business owners as
    being of 3 types:

    * those who run a business

    * those who learn a business

    * those who PLAY at the above

    The 3rd group, he said, are just as serious about what they
    do as those in the other 2 groups - but didn't get anything
    done by way of developing a business.

    The reason he brought it up was to encourage anyone in the
    third category to seriously re-consider their decision of
    being on the program, as it was an expensive way to get an
    'intellectual orgasm'

    But the deeper psychology lesson I learned was that for
    some buyers, the 'process' is the real thrill - NOT the
    'result'.

    And for these 'buyers', you're not selling information or
    education - you're selling ENTERTAINMENT!

    But what if you're making CLAIMS not borne out in your
    product or service? That's a SCAM - regardless of which
    of the 3 groups your buyer is.

    My 2 cents.

    All success
    Dr.Mani

    P.S. - Save some popcorn for me, please!
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  • Profile picture of the author Anonymous Affiliate
    I have been saying EXACTLY the same thing for years:
    People don't want to buy reality. Reality doesn't sell. People want to buy a dream regardless of whether it's a feasible dream or not. And, as a result, as long as there are pipe dream buyers, there will be pipe dream vendors.
    Is that scamming? Quite frankly, I am not so sure, as it's in fact nothing but marketing 101: provide the market what it demands: in this case, a pipe dream. And by pipe dreams I refer to the typical "make thousands of dollars per month by clicking a few buttons" type of products.

    What I'm trying to say here is that buyers need to grow some responsibility for their own purchasing habits. You cannot act foolishly, endlessly buying crap that a blind monkey could spot from a mile away, and then cry that you've been scammed. I honestly believe that reckless buyers are as much to blame as preying vendors.

    Originally Posted by suigeneris View Post

    #2. You are a used car salesman and a guy comes in who obviously has a life that necessitates a minivan and you convince and sell him a sports car that goes 200 mph... [NOT OK]
    And this is precisely what I was talking about... why should we blame the car salesman for trying to maximize his business? I would say that the reckless purchaser is to blame here: he was irresponsible with his money by voluntarily agreeing to buy something he didn't need.

    So how again has been scammed in any way? he wasn't.
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    • Profile picture of the author Shaun OReilly
      Originally Posted by Anonymous Affiliate View Post

      I have been saying EXACTLY the same thing for years:
      People don't want to buy reality. Reality doesn't sell. People want to buy a dream regardless of whether it's a feasible dream or not. And, as a result, as long as there are pipe dream buyers, there will be pipe dream vendors.
      Is that scamming? Quite frankly, I am not so sure, as it's in fact nothing but marketing 101: provide the market what it demands: in this case, a pipe dream. And by pipe dreams I refer to the typical "make thousands of dollars per month by clicking a few buttons" type of products.
      If the results promised in the sales letter have no chance
      of being achieved - no matter how hard the person tries -
      then it's a scam. Period.

      Making thousands of dollars per month by clicking a few
      buttons has no basis in reality - for most prospects.

      People who sell those type of BS products are scammers
      and should be wiped off the face of the WSO Forum,
      ClickBank and elsewhere.

      Originally Posted by Anonymous Affiliate View Post

      What I'm trying to say here is that buyers need to grow some responsibility for their own purchasing habits. You cannot act foolishly, endlessly buying crap that a blind monkey could spot from a mile away, and then cry that you've been scammed. I honestly believe that reckless buyers are as much to blame as preying vendors.
      Without a doubt irresponsible buyers are a part of the
      problem. But the biggest part of the problem is unethical
      sellers who have no qualms about selling a BS pipe dream
      that can't be achieved no matter how hard someone tries.

      It reminds me of the illicit drugs industry - you've got the
      drugs, the drug taker and the drug seller.

      Some drug pushers sell drugs that are the real deal and
      'work' as intended - and it's what junkies want.

      Other drug pushers cut their drugs with filler such as talc
      to make more money for the same amount of drugs - even
      though some junkies lose their eyesight or have amputations
      over that kinda stuff.

      Without unethical sellers - of drugs, infoproducts or anything
      else - there would be no scams. But in the real world, there's
      no shortage of wankers with ethical bypasses who are prepared
      to step in and knowingly supply BS products.

      I choose to be part of the solution, not part of the problem.

      Dedicated to mutual success,

      Shaun
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      • Profile picture of the author Anonymous Affiliate
        Originally Posted by Shaun OReilly View Post

        Without a doubt irresponsible buyers are a part of the problem. But the biggest part of the problem is unethical
        sellers who have no qualms about selling a BS pipe dream
        that can't be achieved no matter how hard someone tries.
        You got it wrong. It's actually the other way around: Marketers CANNOT create a niche. Marketers simply RESPOND to an already-existing niche.

        Therefore, the problem is not in marketers selling a pipe dream. The problem is people foolishly seeking the pipe dream to begin with. As long as there's a market, there will be a marketer catering to it. No market = no marketer.

        If buyers grew a sense of responsibility in their purchasing habits, I can assure you that sales on pipe-dream-products would drop and thus marketers would search for other niches. The key to solve the problem lies in the buyer's side: wisen up and stop the reckless pipe dream hunting, and you will stop the preying pipe dream vendors.

        Let's take **** Berry for example: how can ANYONE truly believe that you can lose weight without dieting and without sweating by simply munching a few pills? isn't that totally silly?!?! and thus, obviously, vendors saw the business opportunity and exploited it to oblivion. Why are they to be blamed? shouldn't the irresponsible purchaser to be the one to be blamed just as much?
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        • Profile picture of the author Shaun OReilly
          Originally Posted by Anonymous Affiliate View Post

          You got it wrong. It's actually the other way around: Marketers CANNOT create a niche. Marketers simply RESPOND to an already-existing niche.

          Therefore, the problem is not in marketers selling a pipe dream. The problem is people foolishly seeking the pipe dream. As long as there's a market, there will be a marketer catering to it. No market = no marketer.

          If buyers grew a sense of responsibility in their purchasing habits, I can assure you that sales on pipe-dream-products would drop and thus marketers would search for other niches. The key to solve the problem lies in the buyer's side: wisen up and stop the reckless pipe dream hunting, and you will stop the preying pipe dream vendors.
          It's true that if the BUYERS grew a sense of responsibility
          then the market would begin to disappear.

          However, it's also true that if SELLERS grew a sense of
          responsibility then the market would begin to disappear.

          It's an inter-dependent problem involving the behavior of
          the buyer AND the seller.

          Meanwhile, in the REAL world, there's no shortage of
          wankers who are prepared to knowingly sell complete
          BS products.

          A key difference is that the BUYERS want to achieve
          the pipe dream and are led to believe that it's possible
          by the SELLERS who sell a pipe dream that they know
          is total BS in the first place.

          In my book, the sellers with the ethical bypasses are
          therefore a bigger part of the overall problem.

          Con-artists are the bigger part of the problem - not
          just those who are gullible enough to be conned.

          Dedicated to mutual success,

          Shaun
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          • Profile picture of the author Anonymous Affiliate
            Originally Posted by Shaun OReilly View Post

            However, it's also true that if SELLERS grew a sense of
            responsibility then the market would begin to disappear.
            I believe that here's where we disagree.

            The lack of offer (vendors) will NOT kill the demand (buyers). Quite the contrary: the lack of offer spurs the price of the product (pipe dream) demanded by the demand. Example: Think back to the 20's when the govt prohibited alcoholic drinks. Did that kill the demand? no it didn't! Instead, it spurred an enormous black market that sold whiskey at 3 times the former price!

            In the other hand, the lack of demand (buyers) can indeed kill the offer (vendors), since the price of their product (pipe dream) would be shot to zero.

            That's economics 101, really.

            Thus, I repeat: the key to the solution lies within the side of the demand (buyers), not the side of the offer (vendors). Freaking pipe dreamers gotta get a reality check to end this non-sense, or else it will keep on going forever!
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            • Profile picture of the author Kurt
              Originally Posted by Anonymous Affiliate View Post

              You got it wrong. It's actually the other way around: Marketers CANNOT create a niche. Marketers simply RESPOND to an already-existing niche.

              Therefore, the problem is not in marketers selling a pipe dream. The problem is people foolishly seeking the pipe dream to begin with. As long as there's a market, there will be a marketer catering to it. No market = no marketer.

              If buyers grew a sense of responsibility in their purchasing habits, I can assure you that sales on pipe-dream-products would drop and thus marketers would search for other niches. The key to solve the problem lies in the buyer's side: wisen up and stop the reckless pipe dream hunting, and you will stop the preying pipe dream vendors.

              Let's take **** Berry for example: how can ANYONE truly believe that you can lose weight without dieting and without sweating by simply munching a few pills? isn't that totally silly?!?! and thus, obviously, vendors saw the business opportunity and exploited it to oblivion. Why are they to be blamed? shouldn't the irresponsible purchaser to be the one to be blamed just as much?
              Originally Posted by Anonymous Affiliate View Post

              I believe that here's where we disagree.

              The lack of offer (vendors) will NOT kill the demand (buyers). Quite the contrary: the lack of offer spurs the price of the product (pipe dream) demanded by the demand. That's economics 101, correct?

              In the other hand, the lack of demand (buyers) can indeed kill the offer (vendors), since their price of their product (pipe dream) would be shot to zero.

              Thus, I repeat: the key to the solution lies within the side of the demand (buyers), not the side of the offer (vendors). Freaking pipe dreamers gotta get a reality check to end this non-sense, or else it will keep on going forever!
              Since it's your opinion sellers have no obligation to not sell pipe dreams, should I assume the promise in your sig that your offer will result in a 62% opt-in rate isn't true and you are just trying to recruit people that chase pipe dreams?
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              • Profile picture of the author Anonymous Affiliate
                Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

                Since it's your opinion sellers have no obligation to not sell pipe dreams, should I assume the promise in your sig that your offer will result in a 62% opt-in rate isn't true and you are just trying to recruit people that chase pipe dreams?
                I shouldn't bite into this personal attack, but what the heck it's saturday morning and I feel joyful today... You could assume that I *could* be lying IF I was a pipe dream vendor. However, I'm not a pipe dream vendor and I can prove that I score up to 70% with my squeeze pages (70.54% exactly after 2811 visitors, as per my current metrics - I just checked :p ).

                Regardless, my point is that buyers are responsible of filtering solid offers from pipe dream offers. Vendors put their wares in the markets, and the buyer is the one to make the choice, thus they gotta wisen up to discern what's solid and what's BS.

                I was not saying at any point that vendors have green lights to lie in their advertisement. What I was saying is that buyers need to apply common sense in their purchasing habits.
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                • Profile picture of the author Kurt
                  Originally Posted by Anonymous Affiliate View Post

                  I shouldn't bite into this personal attack, but what the heck it's saturday morning and I feel joyful today... You could assume that I *could* be lying IF I was a pipe dream vendor. However, I'm not a pipe dream vendor and I can prove that I score up to 70% with my squeeze pages (70.54% exactly after 2811 visitors, as per my current metrics - I just checked :p ).

                  Regardless, my point is that buyers are responsible of filtering solid offers from pipe dream offers. Vendors put their wares in the markets, and the buyer is the one to make the choice, thus they gotta wisen up to discern what's solid and what's BS.

                  I was not saying at any point that vendors have green lights to lie in their advertisement. What I was saying is that buyers need to apply common sense in their purchasing habits.
                  My comments were not a personal attack, it was a hypothetical question from which I formed no opinion of you or your offer. However, the less you believe vendors are responsible, I believe it's follows that you hold the same opinion for yourself and your own offers and your promises are less likely to be "accurate" than Shaun's, based on the info you both provided on this thread. Where's the flaw in my logic?

                  Yes, I agree that buyers are responsible for their actions. But sellers should also be responsible for their promises.

                  Just because there's a market doesn't mean it should be exploited. There's also a market for hit-men and crack dealers. Does a market's existence justify a seller of a killer? How about selling "anger management" or "addiction guidance" programs instead?
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                  • Profile picture of the author Kurt
                    Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe View Post

                    I clicked the link just to check, and to be fair, AA's headline does not promise 62% opt-in rate. It declares that such a rate is possible, with the right template. At worst, he stretches the truth a bit thin when he says that "all it takes is the right template".

                    I don't see a promise made. Implied, maybe. But not promised.
                    Originally Posted by ExRat View Post

                    Hi John,

                    On the one hand, it is just an implied promise.

                    But on the other hand, if you examine the wording -

                    '62% opt-in rate is possible. You just the right squeeze page template.'

                    ...then unless the free downloaded templates are not connected in any way with this statement, then it is a pretty strong implied promise, especially when you also view the wording on the screenshots.

                    You could also argue that the wording of the sig ad strongly implies the result to be a given for anyone who uses it - '62% opt-in rate squeeze page template.' Those kind of statements are often seen carrying an explanatory disclaimer in differing circumstances, such as 'typical result for the average user*, but your mileage may vary.' (*based on 2009 tests involving X amount of people.)

                    But of course, it's worth noting taht this is a free download for an opt-in and I'm not trying to suggest that AnonymousAffiliate has done anything wrong or is in any way unethical. I was just making a seperate point about the 'personal attack' statement in reference to Kurt's comment about the implied promise.

                    I can't think of an example I have seen in all of my years where the marketer in question has not in all probability planned things to be that way in order to encourage the prospect to make that leap, for nefarious reasons - for example, when they want to give themselves ammunition to discourage a refunder at the first refund attempt.

                    And it should be noted that my comment was about his sig, not the sales page the sig links to. The sig says "62% optin page Free", which to me indicates that it is ME that will get the 62%...Why else use the word "free"? "Free" indicates someone else other than the giver/seller will be the beneficiary of the 62%.

                    He may qualify it on the squeeze page, but that wasn't my point. My point is, after reading his comments on this thread, why shouldn't we believe that he feels hype is better than substance, at least relative to many other marketers on this thread? He said it himself. And since the discussion brings up respnsibility, shouldn't he be responsible for his own posts?
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                • Profile picture of the author John Hocking
                  I think a lot of time the process is harder than the vendor thinks it is or that he makes it appear to be.

                  If the user has no experience or frame of reference, then they may not be able to act without very detailed step by step instructions.

                  If you have never changed car tire before, I could lay all the tools before you, but you would not know how to change the tire. You might be able to figure it out without step by step instructions but you would become very frustrated in the process.

                  I believe that it is this frustration and incomplete instruction that gets a lot of people to never take action.
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                • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                  This is not a black and white issue. Few things in life are.

                  If the product being sold says it will do XYZ and has NO chance of doing XYZ
                  because it's nothing but an empty box of cornflakes then this has nothing to
                  do with buyer responsibility. It is an outright lie.

                  Think about this. If I go to a hardware store and tell the salesman that I am
                  looking for a tool that will drive nails into a wall and he points me to a roll
                  of scotch tape and says "this will do the job" and I have no idea what scotch
                  tape REALLY does, then it's not my fault if I bring it home and can't drive nails
                  with the scotch tape.

                  But if he sells me a hammer and I can't drive the nails because...

                  1. I am too weak to lift the hammer.
                  2. I don't have the hand eye coordination to strike it correctly.
                  3. Don't use it because it requires too much work.

                  Then it's MY fault that I can't drive the nail home and NOT the salesman.

                  And yes, there are people who DREAM about being able to buy that hammer
                  and have it automatically drive that nail into the wall without having to do
                  the physical labor required to make that hammer work.

                  I bought one of those "do it yourself" cabinets once. It looked so nice on the
                  box. But then I got it home and saw how much work was involved in putting
                  it together.

                  That cabinet ended up on the curb with the rest of the trash.

                  So was it the seller's fault that I couldn't put it together? No, it was mine
                  for not asking "How easy is this REALLY to put together?" making him aware
                  that I was totally incompetent with tools.

                  We all buy the dream to some extent. I buy it less than most people...thank
                  God...or I'd be broke.

                  Most items I buy, I know for certain what I am going to get out of it.

                  For example. One of my biggest hobbies today is Magic The Gathering. I
                  play with my friends on Friday night.

                  When I buy a pack of cards I know exactly what I'm getting...a chance to
                  maybe get a good rare card. I realize I may NOT get a good one but I know
                  I have a chance.

                  When I buy a box of cards, I know exactly what I am getting...a better
                  chance of getting quite a few good rares. In fact, at one rare per pack, 36
                  packs in a box, I'm getting 36 rares. There are usually 3 or 4 mythic rares in
                  a box.

                  When I go to Ebay and buy a specific card, I know exactly what I'm getting.

                  The EXACT card I want.

                  Do I pay more? Yes, but there is no chance involved. I know that the card
                  I want is the card that will be delivered.

                  Now, if the salesman doesn't send that card and sends another one, or
                  doesn't send anything at all, THEN I was scammed.

                  But...if I DO get that card, even if it doesn't perform in my deck the way I
                  expected it to, I got exactly what I paid for...the card itself.

                  See, a lot of MTG players expect the cards they buy to automatically win
                  games for them. It doesn't work that way. They have to learn how to play
                  the game. The cards themselves DON'T win games...no matter how good
                  they are.

                  I don't buy a card expecting it to win a game of Magic for me, though I hope
                  that it will help. I buy it for one reason only...to get the card and then do
                  my best to make it work for me.

                  If this is sounding at all similar to buying make money online products, it
                  should. For that matter, it should sound similar to just about anything we
                  buy in life that comes with a "promise" attached to it.

                  Too many people buy the "dream" without realizing that there is a price to
                  be paid for that dream...a price way beyond what we paid in dollars and
                  cents for the product itself.

                  I have over 35,000 Magic The Gathering cards. Yet, I am a below average
                  player.

                  Why? Because of several reasons.

                  1. I don't have a real talent for the game. It doesn't come easy to me.

                  2. I don't really put in the kind of time into the game that the pros do. Some
                  of these guys practice morning, noon and night and play tournaments all
                  the time. I play Friday Night Magic. It's NOT the same thing.

                  3. I don't understand the mechanics as well as the pros. They'll see combos
                  of cards that I'll never see in a million years. It's called insight and it's
                  something that's hard to teach.

                  Again, does this sound similar to running a home business?

                  I don't care what money making product you buy. Your success is governed
                  by factors way beyond the actual product itself.

                  1. How much innate talent you have to get the most out of information.

                  2. How much work you're willing to put in to making the product work.

                  3. How you intend to use the product.

                  Let's look at number 3. If a product is rather generic, such as a course for
                  teaching you how to create an autoresponder series, the success that you
                  will have with it will depend a lot on what niche you're targeting.

                  Some niches just don't respond well to newsletters. I've learned this the
                  hard way.

                  Does that mean that the autoresponder series course is a scam or doesn't
                  work? NO, it means that you're trying to use it for a niche that doesn't
                  respond well to autoresponders.

                  Or maybe the course suggests you use a top service like Aweber or
                  GetResponse but because you don't have the money, you go with a free
                  solution that has no track record for high delivery rates. Then you go find
                  out that your emails aren't being delivered.

                  Whose fault is that?

                  Finally, and this is really the bottom line to all of this, we're all responsible
                  adults here. Nobody is putting a gun to our heads saying "You better buy
                  this WSO or I'm going to blow your brains out."

                  Do you know how many products I've purchased in the 8 plus years I've
                  been running my own business?

                  I can probably count them on two hands.

                  And as for WSOs, I think I have purchased maybe 1 or 2 in the 5 years I
                  have been here.

                  If you're sick about being sold the dream then stop BUYING the dream.

                  It's THAT simple.

                  Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

                  My nickel on the subject.

                  Given the length of this reply I felt it was worth more than 2 cents.
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            • Profile picture of the author Shaun OReilly
              Originally Posted by Anonymous Affiliate View Post

              I believe that here's where we disagree.

              The lack of offer (vendors) will NOT kill the demand (buyers).
              A market consists of supply and demand.

              No demand, no market.

              No supply, no market.

              If suppliers don't supply pipe dreams then people can't
              buy pipe dreams.

              For me, it's an ethical question of whether or not the
              seller is prepared to sell a pipe dream that they know in
              advance is complete BS.

              Whether or not there are enough 'marks' foolish enough
              to buy them shouldn't enter into the equation.

              There are some things I'm NOT prepared to do for money
              and one of them is selling bull**** products using wild
              claims.

              That said, I'm not so naive to believe that there aren't
              some ethically-challenged sellers who'll be more than
              prepared to step into the breach.

              Dedicated to mutual success,

              Shaun
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        • Profile picture of the author ExRat
          Hi Anonymous Affiliate,

          Let's take **** Berry for example: how can ANYONE truly believe that you can lose weight without dieting and without sweating by simply munching a few pills? isn't that totally silly?!?! and thus, obviously, vendors saw the business opportunity and exploited it to oblivion. Why are they to be blamed? shouldn't the irresponsible purchaser to be the one to be blamed just as much?
          Simple. Because a large majority of the buyers are in a very vulnerable mental state. It doesn't take much knowledge of psychology and human nature to understand this.

          Think about the lonely person who has always been called 'fatty' for decades and only ever finds abusive and dishonest partners. They may have complexes, neuroses, self-harm issues (incuding over-eating) possibly depression and a serious confidence problem.

          Now tell me that those people deserve to be blamed for being irresponsible.

          Hi ColinChia,

          The dream is being SOLD to everyone all over the world everyday...

          Would McDonalds be as successful as they are today if it was advertised as the truth "Fat, Greasy Food with Absolutely no health benefits?" probably not!

          Who is responsible the Marketer or the Consumer?
          I can't provide proof, but what if someone did prove that this product actually injures or kills people? There is some speculation around that it does.

          Who is responsible then?
          Signature


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          • Profile picture of the author BIG Mike
            Banned
            [DELETED]
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            • Profile picture of the author ExRat
              Hi Big Mike,

              I think that this epitomizes the entire discussion - McDonalds or other fast food chains are not the underlying cause of obesity nor do their products kill people.
              With respect, I do too, but for different reasons.

              It epitomises the discussion because you chose to use the more extreme possibility I gave while totally ignoring the less extreme one (injury) to make your point. In other words, most of these discussions don't make much difference or change minds too much, because the subject is very deep and complicated.

              No one addressed the actual question I asked which was - 'if Mcdonalds does kill or injure people, who is responsible?' IE is the consumer still responsible, or should a civilised society disallow corporations/companies to market unhealthy products to children using bribery (free toys) and conditioning (clowns and parties)?

              I do agree with your conclusion in terms of internet products -

              It's your choice - be scammed or not. You control it, you have the power to change it.
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        • Profile picture of the author vitalgirl
          Originally Posted by Anonymous Affiliate View Post

          You got it wrong. It's actually the other way around: Marketers CANNOT create a niche. Marketers simply RESPOND to an already-existing niche.
          Really? So marketers don't have a 'choice' as to whether they 'respond' to a 'niche'.

          So, buyers HAVE to admit their personal responsibility but marketers are the 'unwitting' victims (who had no choice ....)
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  • Profile picture of the author IMWinner
    The intention of buying and purchasing a product and idea is to attain one's dream. We have our goals and motives why we used money to purchase these products and ideas for our own sake, especially the fulfilment of our dream. But to some people, the intentions are always there especially before and during the purchase of products and ideas. This is to really make their dreams come true.
    But the problem here is on the person themselves. Yes, the intention is there when the product was purchased but on how to do it and what to do with it, is the start of the problem. The most challenging part is on how people would be able to attain and reached their goal after the purchase of the product. It is NOT an instant money result that when you buy some product and idea on how to earn will automatically give you the idea that you will instantly earn that money.
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  • Profile picture of the author Chri5123
    Yes this IS Sales!

    EVERYTHING is sold in this way i.e selling the dream.

    Or focusing on benefits not features, sell the sizzle not the steak.

    All you have to do is look at some adverts for beer and why is it that everyone is smiling, not a beer belly in sight and getting on well?

    In truth we all know what happens when you get a lot of drunk people together.

    To focus on the thread topic though I think that people do the first part right - they believe it is possible to "live the dream".

    The second part is trial and error, and not stopping until you get there.

    Unfortunately a lot of people fall at the wayside when they find out most of the time obtaining the dream is "hard work!"

    Let me put it this way:

    What are the odds of winning the lottery?

    You probably have more chance of being successful at ANYTHING else you choose to do in life.

    How many people play the lottery though?

    Chris
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  • Profile picture of the author Regional Warrior
    Snake oil is Snake oil in any fashion...!
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    • Profile picture of the author ExRat
      Hi Chri5123,

      All you have to do is look at some adverts for beer and why is it that everyone is smiling, not a beer belly in sight and getting on well?
      This fallacy comes up in every one of these discussions.

      'Because beer is sold in this way, then it must be OK for me to sell things this way too.'

      But what if that beer commercial is unethical or morally wrong?

      Yes this IS Sales!

      EVERYTHING is sold in this way i.e selling the dream.
      A few posts back Shaun claimed that he successfully sells things but never in that way, hence your statement is false - 'EVERYTHING' is not sold in that way, unless Shaun is lying.

      Hi AnonymousAffiliate,

      Originally Posted by Kurt
      Since it's your opinion sellers have no obligation to not sell pipe dreams, should I assume the promise in your sig that your offer will result in a 62% opt-in rate isn't true and you are just trying to recruit people that chase pipe dreams?
      I shouldn't bite into this personal attack, but what the heck it's saturday morning and I feel joyful today
      It's not actually a personal attack, it's actually a legitimate and logical assertion.

      Plus, your response avoids answering the question.

      However, I'm not a pipe dream vendor and I can prove that I score up to 70% with my squeeze pages (70.54% exactly after 2811 visitors, as per my current metrics - I just checked :p ).
      You are stating that these figures are for your results. Kurt was asking about a promise you have made regarding others gaining these results.
      Signature


      Roger Davis
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      • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
        Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

        Since it's your opinion sellers have no obligation to not sell pipe dreams, should I assume the promise in your sig that your offer will result in a 62% opt-in rate isn't true and you are just trying to recruit people that chase pipe dreams?
        Originally Posted by ExRat View Post

        Hi AnonymousAffiliate,

        It's not actually a personal attack, it's actually a legitimate and logical assertion.

        Plus, your response avoids answering the question.

        You are stating that these figures are for your results. Kurt was asking about a promise you have made regarding others gaining these results.
        I clicked the link just to check, and to be fair, AA's headline does not promise 62% opt-in rate. It declares that such a rate is possible, with the right template. At worst, he stretches the truth a bit thin when he says that "all it takes is the right template".

        I don't see a promise made. Implied, maybe. But not promised.

        ...

        Another round of thanks to everyone who posted. I came back this morning to find things going in all sorts of interesting directions.

        Here's another angle to ponder...

        Several of you have offered the opinion (which I tend to agree with) that if someone is selling a completely bogus product, it is a scam, whether the buyer ever tries it and learns the truth or not.

        What if the promise is only implied, as is the case with Anonymous Affiliate's sig offer? If he has the stats to back it up, and he says he does, his main headline is a statement of fact. The subhead is a statement of opinion.

        What if it's the buyer's leap of imagination to convert that into a promise that using said templates guarantees or promises a given result? Does the seller have an obligation to quell that leap?
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        • Profile picture of the author ExRat
          Hi John,

          On the one hand, it is just an implied promise.

          But on the other hand, if you examine the wording -

          '62% opt-in rate is possible. You just the right squeeze page template.'

          ...then unless the free downloaded templates are not connected in any way with this statement, then it is a pretty strong implied promise, especially when you also view the wording on the screenshots.

          You could also argue that the wording of the sig ad strongly implies the result to be a given for anyone who uses it - '62% opt-in rate squeeze page template.' Those kind of statements are often seen carrying an explanatory disclaimer in differing circumstances, such as 'typical result for the average user*, but your mileage may vary.' (*based on 2009 tests involving X amount of people.)

          But of course, it's worth noting that this is a free download for an opt-in and I'm not trying to suggest that AnonymousAffiliate has done anything wrong or is in any way unethical. I was just making a separate point about the 'personal attack' statement in reference to Kurt's comment about the implied promise.

          What if it's the buyer's leap of imagination to convert that into a promise that using said templates guarantees or promises a given result? Does the seller have an obligation to quell that leap?
          I can't think of an example I have seen in all of my years where the marketer in question has not in all probability planned things to be that way in order to encourage the prospect to make that leap, for nefarious reasons - for example, when they want to give themselves ammunition to discourage a refunder at the first refund attempt.
          Signature


          Roger Davis
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        • Profile picture of the author vitalgirl
          Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe View Post

          What if the promise is only implied, as is the case with Anonymous Affiliate's sig offer? If he has the stats to back it up, and he says he does, his main headline is a statement of fact. The subhead is a statement of opinion.

          What if it's the buyer's leap of imagination to convert that into a promise that using said templates guarantees or promises a given result? Does the seller have an obligation to quell that leap?
          Maybe the seller has an obligation to at least try and deliver, in a way that is meaningful to the target audience. An implied promise is still a promise. You can choose whether or not in your sales letter you imply those things (and whether in your product you then deliver).

          I think that then comes back to the product, and the quality of the product - and maybe the intention and integrity of the people making it (and selling it).

          Instead of blaming the people who buy it for not succeeding when it was essentially sold on implication, perhaps the makers of the product could go back to the drawing board and figure out why there is a disconnect between what their product may do and what most people's experience of it is (if indeed there is a disconnect - I do not beleive for one minute that all WSO's are bad, nor are all products bad, if they are sold on implied benefit).

          IMHO I think sometimes it comes down to people actually caring about their customers and people who don't.

          And for those who dismiss everyone who 'fails' with their product automatically as someone who is stupid or just lazy or whatever, I leave you with a quote from Seth Godin:

          "You're smarter than your boss or your friends or your organization believes. And you are way smarter than the marketers selling to you every day give you credit for, that's for sure.

          I've been betting on the intelligence of my readers for almost a decade, and that bet keeps paying off.

          They just don't get it. Not you, you get it. It's the other guys who don't. The people who deceive or cut corners or refuse to change in the face of overwhelming opportunity and evidence..." - Seth Godin, Small Is The New Big
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          • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
            @Big Mike and @ExRat

            I have to agree with Mike on this.

            I don't eat at McDonald's or any fast food place because the food makes me
            sick. In fact, I'm on a very strict diet.

            But...I did eat a lot of Mickey D's and Burger King when I was a kid. A lot
            meaning once a week. That's a lot.

            It didn't kill me. Had I eaten it every day, might have been a different story.
            Of course with my metabolism (I still weigh 120 at age 53) I probably could
            have gotten away with pigging out a bit. I just burn calories like water.

            But I had a mother who said to me flat out, "You're not living on Burger King...
            Period." Once a week was my treat. The rest of the week it was healthy
            eating.

            My health problems, ironically, were not because of bad eating but because
            of not drinking enough water. I never realized how important water was until
            it was too late. Today, I live on water and my health is back to normal.

            Point is, at what point do we take responsibility for the choices we make
            and stop expecting the government or whoever to protect us from the
            evils of the world?

            I don't need Burger King to be put out of business to know that eating fast
            food is bad for me.

            If you're going to put a gun to your head and pull the trigger, expect to
            blow your brains out.

            My additional 2 cents on the subject.
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          • Profile picture of the author BIG Mike
            Banned
            [DELETED]
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            • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
              For some reason, I keep coming back to the notion of implied promises. I believe I should have said something more like "assumed promises"...

              Anonymous Affiliate, forgive me for going back to your sig as an example, but it fits right in with what I want to bring out.

              The banner simply says "62% Opt-In Rate Squeeze Template", which to me says a template that achieved a 62% opt-in rate.

              Beneath that is the line:

              ">>> Free Download: 62% Opt-in Rate Squeeze Page Template."

              The only explicit promise is a free download of a template that AA claims got a 62% opt-in rate. Again, since he claims to have the data to back up his claim, I take it at face value.

              Yet two highly intelligent, experienced marketers came away with the belief that AA was promising a 62% opt-in rate to anyone getting and using the templates.

              How many Warriors of whatever experience level create the promise of the results they dream about out of the words that are actually present? And then when the product does not deliver on that promise blame the seller and the ad copy?

              Know this...

              I am not condoning or making excuses for sellers that outright lie or deliberately deceive. A con is a con.

              I'm talking more about folks seeing the mirage and believing it's an oasis because they're desperate to reach an oasis.
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              • Profile picture of the author ExRat
                Hi John,

                The banner simply says "62% Opt-In Rate Squeeze Template", which to me says a template that achieved a 62% opt-in rate.

                Beneath that is the line:

                ">>> Free Download: 62% Opt-in Rate Squeeze Page Template."

                The only explicit promise is a free download of a template that AA claims got a 62% opt-in rate. Again, since he claims to have the data to back up his claim, I take it at face value.
                Forgive me if my use of analogies skews the point.

                If I advertise this -

                200mph top speed sports cars for sale

                Would you feel duped if the one you bought only did 30mph whatever you did, or would you blame yourself and your driving?

                If I advertise this -

                Rifle for sale - hits the bullseye from 200yds

                Would you feel duped if you couldn't hit a barn door with it from 200yds, considering that you weren't completely incapable of firing a gun?

                Same difference with -

                62% Opt-in rate squeeze page template

                If there is a difference, please elaborate on exactly what that difference is.

                Hi Steven,

                @Big Mike and @ExRat

                I have to agree with Mike on this.

                I don't eat at McDonald's or any fast food place because the food makes me sick. In fact, I'm on a very strict diet.

                But...I did eat a lot of Mickey D's and Burger King when I was a kid. A lot
                meaning once a week. That's a lot.

                It didn't kill me.
                Even though you're agreeing with Big Mike, you're not actually disagreeing with me, as far as I can see, plus you're actually agreeing with me when you say that it 'makes me sick.'

                See here -

                Hi Big Mike,

                First, I think we have to define "Injury" and "Unhealthy" for this discussion.

                In terms of McDonalds, there is no short-term or imminent danger of injury or health related problems to having a meal there, right? It's a potential cumulative effect over years (or am I not understand your comment?) that's compounded by many other factors.
                Yes, the context I was using was the literal one - if it injures you in any way at all (even to the extent that it makes you feel sick) then that is what I meant.

                Food that is offered for sale should not cause any kind of injury in my opinion. There's absolutely no need for this to happen, unless you are selling absolute trash that's not fit for a junkyard dog.
                Signature


                Roger Davis
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                • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                  Originally Posted by ExRat View Post


                  Hi Steven,

                  Even though you're agreeing with Big Mike, you're not actually disagreeing with me, as far as I can see, plus you're actually agreeing with me when you say that it 'makes me sick.'
                  The difference is, McDonald's didn't ALWAYS make me sick. In fact, it didn't
                  start making me sick until I was in my 30s. As a kid, didn't bother me at all.

                  And I know people who to this day eat McDonald's and WORSE without any
                  ill effects at all.

                  One could argue that the problem is not McDonald's but something inside
                  of us. But then why is it "good" food doesn't make ME sick.

                  If McDonald's was pure poison, people would die on ingestion. Yes, I know,
                  you can argue that's not true because of tobacco. It doesn't kill you right
                  away but takes years.

                  But again, where do we draw the line? We live in an age where we have
                  access to tons of information. We are reasonably certain that fast food, if
                  eaten day after day, year after year, is going to make us overweight and
                  eventually kill us. So if we still choose to walk into McDonald's and scarf down
                  a Big Mac, Fries, Shake and Apple Pie, and do this every single day, then
                  whose fault is it if we get violently ill?

                  If you can't make tobacco illegal, there is no chance to make fast food
                  illegal. So the best we can hope for is to educate the public, make them
                  aware of the dangers and THEN...if they choose to continue to eat this
                  crap, it's THEIR fault...and NOT the fault of the company selling the food.

                  FWIW...I'm not claiming that my view on this is the right one. It's simply
                  my opinion. Again, if I put a loaded gun to my head and pull the trigger,
                  I should expect to get my head blown off.
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              • Profile picture of the author vitalgirl
                Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe View Post

                How many Warriors of whatever experience level create the promise of the results they dream about out of the words that are actually present? And then when the product does not deliver on that promise blame the seller and the ad copy?

                Know this...

                I am not condoning or making excuses for sellers that outright lie or deliberately deceive. A con is a con.

                I'm talking more about folks seeing the mirage and believing it's an oasis because they're desperate to reach an oasis.
                Hi John

                But given that in a sales letter, like poetry, every word is there for a reason - to move the prospect towards a sale - then surely the seller has to take responsibility for what is implied by his or her words. A lie is still a lie (or a deception) whether it is implied or not. If you create a mirage with your words then surely you have a responsibility to make sure there is as little disconnect between your product and the 'mirage' in your sales letter as is humanly possible.
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                • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
                  Originally Posted by ExRat View Post

                  Hi John,

                  Forgive me if my use of analogies skews the point.

                  If I advertise this -

                  200mph top speed sports cars for sale

                  Would you feel duped if the one you bought only did 30mph whatever you did, or would you blame yourself and your driving?

                  Roger, it would depend on whether or not the car was capable of reaching 200 mph. And the reason why I could not make it do over 30.

                  I've driven cars capable of going those speeds, the trick is that there are very few places in the US where it is legal to drive that fast.

                  Should I blame the car maker or dealer if the car will go 200, but if I go much over 80, I'm looking at a ticket or worse?

                  If I advertise this -

                  Rifle for sale - hits the bullseye from 200yds

                  Would you feel duped if you couldn't hit a barn door with it from 200yds, considering that you weren't completely incapable of firing a gun?

                  I've owned rifles like that. Out of the box, with no instruction or practice, hitting anything but the dirt backstop was pure luck. Properly sighted in, with a modicum of technique and practice, tight groups were the norm at 200 yds and more.

                  Is the seller to blame if the buyer can't duplicate the conditions for success, assuming such conditions are fairly easily achievable?

                  Same difference with -

                  62% Opt-in rate squeeze page template

                  If there is a difference, please elaborate on exactly what that difference is.
                  I would put this template package closer to the rifle than the sports car. The template, out of the box, would be hard pressed to get any opt-ins under any circumstances.

                  Add a proper offer, halfway decent copy, and point it at a receptive audience, and good results should be expected.

                  Originally Posted by vitalgirl View Post

                  Hi John

                  But given that in a sales letter, like poetry, every word is there for a reason - to move the prospect towards a sale - then surely the seller has to take responsibility for what is implied by his or her words. A lie is still a lie (or a deception) whether it is implied or not. If you create a mirage with your words then surely you have a responsibility to make sure there is as little disconnect between your product and the 'mirage' in your sales letter as is humanly possible.
                  While this sounds good on paper, it is harder to do in practice. Even with a best effort to make the mirage match the reality, some people will see what they want to see, same as with the illusion of water in a desert or in the distance on a hot blacktop road.

                  And, since the objective is to move the prospect towards a sale, one has to balance the copy carefully between selling the product and trying to make sure that no reader draws the wrong conclusion. Go to far one way, and too many people get the wrong idea. Go to far the other way, and you wring all the life out of the copy and make it about as interesting as the disclaimers in the drug ads.
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                  • Profile picture of the author vitalgirl
                    Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe View Post

                    While this sounds good on paper, it is harder to do in practice. Even with a best effort to make the mirage match the reality, some people will see what they want to see, same as with the illusion of water in a desert or in the distance on a hot blacktop road.

                    And, since the objective is to move the prospect towards a sale, one has to balance the copy carefully between selling the product and trying to make sure that no reader draws the wrong conclusion. Go to far one way, and too many people get the wrong idea. Go to far the other way, and you wring all the life out of the copy and make it about as interesting as the disclaimers in the drug ads.
                    I agree, but I think that some people really don't even try. And then you get those 'great sales letter, crap products' scenarios.
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            • Profile picture of the author vitalgirl
              Originally Posted by BIG Mike View Post

              That's actually one of the core purposes of the WSO forum - testing a product and getting feedback (or rather it used to be).

              That said, is the seller really to blame if someone who has no clue buys his product? I'm not talking about everyone or "Most" of those who bought, but rather a small percentage who don't know what to do with it?

              ....

              We get routine support requests daily from people who can't be bothered to crack open the help documentation. They ask questions that are specifically answered there.

              These same people will call us scammers, tell us our products are crap, threaten us and then brag about all their years of experience to justify to themselves that they weren't wrong.

              I could go on and on, but assuming we have good quality products, provide decent support and do everything we can to avoid any real disconnects, should we stop promoting our products because a minority don't understand them and shouldn't have bought them? Is it really our fault that they bought them in the first place?

              Of course not...
              Hi Big Mike

              I 100% agree with you here. I wasn't really talking those people (and they certainly do exist) - offline & online. Buyers do have a personal responsiblity, and they can exhibit all sorts of behaviour. But I'm not talking about the good products, even the products that are being tested (because usually those people release updates and act in good faith - their goal in fact IS to make their product better & I think that's great).

              I'm talking about those products that are pitched at people that make promises (implied or otherwise) that the person to whom they are being advertised, the 'target market', couldn't really achieve, with reasonable effort.

              It could be that the product doesn't communicate well, or it could simply be that it is pitched to the wrong audience. Or it could be that the audience is the right one but the expectations created by the sales letter are not likely to be achieved by most of them, for whatever reason.

              What I can't agree with is putting ALL of the responsibility on the seller either. Yes, they should provide a product that works as advertised, no doubt about it. Even anything they imply should be reasonably achievable.

              Always assuming the seller is living up to what he or she said, then I have to think the buyer needs to be responsible for their own actions.
              Completely, 100% agree :-)

              Actually, for a story on 'bad beh'r' from a customer (actually this guy wasn't a customer - he was trying to steal from my parent's shop & I caught him)...

              He was off his face (I think) & trying to steal some mouth wash (I think they have alcohol in them). I saw him put in under his shirt & in his pants and went over and spoke to him & asked for it back. He tried to deny it at first (but it was on camera anyway). So I said to him "Look I know you put it under your shirt. I'm just giving you the opporunity to give it back before I call the police." I then pointed to the camera(s). He gave it back then, but what he said next really made me laugh: "Will you buy it for me?"

              Ummm - I said no ...

              But yes, there are people who will take advantage on both sides of the fence (as it were).
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              • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                Originally Posted by vitalgirl View Post

                I'm talking about those products that are pitched at people that make promises (implied or otherwise) that the person to whom they are being advertised, the 'target market', couldn't really achieve, with reasonable effort.
                The problem is, everybody's idea of reasonable effort is different. For me,
                when I was working full time, reasonable effort was working 14 hour days in
                order to achieve my goals. It was spending money that I didn't have to get
                the tools I needed. It was sacrificing my personal and social life to make my
                business a success.

                For some people, they'd rather be homeless than do all that.

                When you start dealing with broad generalizations, that's when you get
                into trouble. To say that a product is a scam or misleading because it
                requires more than "reasonable" effort opens up a whole can of worms
                that, trust me, you do NOT want to open.

                Because if you compare most people's work ethic to what mine used to be
                when I needed to work, you'll lose every time.

                So again, where do we draw the line? At what point do we simply say...

                "Hey stupid...use some freaking common sense. If something sounds too good
                to be true, it probably is."

                That train of thought has always worked for me anyway.
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                • Profile picture of the author Rick Britton
                  I am totally and utterly sick of the whole thing, being sold the "dream" only to find out well I got duped again. Happened to me recently and the guy not only failed to produce what he promised he refused to refund my money and fobbed me off with a bunch of "quick cash online" PDFs about selling stuff on Craigslist but having an affiliate link in there and stuff like that. I spent money I couldnt afford believing finally someone would help me out... yet again only to find out it is all BS. Never again.
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                  • Profile picture of the author Istvan Horvath
                    Originally Posted by JudoRick View Post

                    I spent money I couldnt afford believing finally someone would help me out...
                    Did anybody mention "buyers' responsibility"?

                    When I wanted to sell my very first product, I wasn't ready to spend too much money on tools but I was ready to spend quite a bit of time to learn. In order to set up my sales funnel I needed some solution that would help me to "automate" the sales process, connect to Paypal, deliver safely the product and, eventually, helps getting affiliates.

                    Let's take 2 scripts that provide (more or less) all of the above: $7Script and RAP (Rapid Action Profits). They both do what I outlined above, although in a different way, and RAP has more 'bells and whistles'. With the $7Script you need to learn to edit the code in files; the other one has a nice interface...

                    However, one costs literally $7 and the other $197.

                    At the time when I could afford only $7, I've spent only $7. It is that simple. (Yes, later, when I made enough money with it, I bought RAP, too...)

                    Final note: As you may have figured it out, none of these products sell the dream. They are tools to make your dreams come true. Still, the analogy works - spend responsibly only what you can afford.
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                    • Profile picture of the author Rick Britton
                      No, that is not what happened and it was XXXXXXXXX many times more than $7 I can tell you

                      the guy promised a turn key solution "buy a domain and I will build you a blog to make you money straight away"

                      I have got SQUAT, he then decides he cant finish it and sends me 10 ebooks he had on his computer in compensation.

                      I asked for a refund and he refused.

                      What do I do next?
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                    • Profile picture of the author Chri5123
                      Originally Posted by Istvan Horvath View Post

                      Did anybody mention "buyers' responsibility"?

                      When I wanted to sell my very first product, I wasn't ready to spend too much money on tools but I was ready to spend quite a bit of time to learn. In order to set up my sales funnel I needed some solution that would help me to "automate" the sales process, connect to Paypal, deliver safely the product and, eventually, helps getting affiliates.

                      Let's take 2 scripts that provide (more or less) all of the above: $7Script and RAP (Rapid Action Profits). They both do what I outlined above, although in a different way, and RAP has more 'bells and whistles'. With the $7Script you need to learn to edit the code in files; the other one has a nice interface...

                      However, one costs literally $7 and the other $197.

                      At the time when I could afford only $7, I've spent only $7. It is that simple. (Yes, later, when I made enough money with it, I bought RAP, too...)

                      Final note: As you may have figured it out, none of these products sell the dream. They are tools to make your dreams come true. Still, the analogy works - spend responsibly only what you can afford.
                      This is spot on! ^

                      However correct me if I am wrong:

                      The products may not sell "the dream" but they sell the benefits of the product right?

                      In turn "make money online" products sell the benefits too - and what are the benefits of having spare cash for a lot of people?

                      What do people want?

                      Fast cars, big houses?

                      Here we are back at the dream again...

                      "The dream" is nothing but a benefit of having money.

                      So is it wrong to sell the benefits of a product as YOU (the creator) see it?

                      Chris Jones
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                  • Profile picture of the author Anonymous Affiliate
                    Originally Posted by JudoRick View Post

                    I am totally and utterly sick of the whole thing, being sold the "dream" only to find out well I got duped again.

                    I spent money I couldnt afford believing finally someone would help me out... yet again only to find out it is all BS.
                    Hasn't it crossed your mind that perhaps, only perhaps, you're the one to be blamed for your reckless buying filters? I mean, if you get duped over and over again... don't you reckon it's your fault that you didn't wised up by the second time? perhaps the third time? Perhaps you should have stopped buying "the dream" over and over?

                    You know what they say: "fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. Fool me three times, I am a @#@¢# !!!"
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                    • Profile picture of the author Rick Britton
                      Originally Posted by Anonymous Affiliate View Post

                      Hasn't it crossed your mind that perhaps, only perhaps, you're the one to be blamed for your reckless buying filters? I mean, if you get duped over and over again... don't you reckon it's your fault that you didn't wised up by the second time? perhaps the third time? Perhaps you should have stopped buying "the dream" over and over?

                      You know what they say: "fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. Fool me three times, I am a @#@¢# !!!"
                      no xxxx you

                      the guy had a list of "reviews" from all the big faces saying how awesome his deal was, he promised to deliver XYZ and then didnt come close, refuses to refund and substitutes a load of ebooks in place

                      are there not rules for this?
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                      • Profile picture of the author Anonymous Affiliate
                        Originally Posted by JudoRick View Post

                        no xxxx you

                        the guy had a list of "reviews" from all the big faces saying how awesome his deal was, he promised to deliver XYZ and then didnt come close, refuses to refund and substitutes a load of ebooks in place

                        are there not rules for this?
                        Didnt you say that you got duped AGAIN? (I'm quoting you here).

                        Didn't you say you were buying stuff with money you couldnt afford? (I'm quote you again)

                        So, if you're being repeatedly scammed for money you cannot afford spending, perhaps you should apply some common-sense in your purchasing decisions? some self-accountability perhaps? Just saying man...
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                        • Profile picture of the author ExRat
                          Hi JudoRick,

                          Did you buy through paypal?

                          Was it using a credit card, debit card or paypal funds? (I ask because if it was all on a credit card, that leaves you in a stronger position).

                          If it was paypal, and the seller hasn't delivered what was promised, and/or promised refunds but didn't deliver a refund then I would approach paypal and open a dispute.

                          Does that help?

                          Hi precious007,

                          Here's an example of a real system and THIS guy has something to offer.

                          Internet Marketing Training and Coaching Site With Sean Mize

                          He charges no more, no less than $10,000 for his coaching program - Most people might think he's selling a dream. Actually he's not. He's selling a system that works.
                          I'm aware of who Sean is, but when I scan his salespage I see that he doesn't look for absolute newbs, but he also doesn't require people to bring any expertise along, but one of his bullet points says -

                          Learn to create your own high priced class ($2000 to $10,000) and release it within weeks of enrolling in my Platinum Coaching Program
                          That looks a little 'dream-like' to me.

                          Also, you say -

                          Every single month he puts in about $5K and earns around $30K.

                          Just saying.. $5K is quite a lot of money to invest and most people would dream to earn that much online every month, let alone investing such amounts.
                          What does he invest $5k into?

                          His salespage says -

                          I work alone, except for a couple of outsourced article writers and one submitter. Simple. No big payroll.
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                • Profile picture of the author vitalgirl
                  The problem is, everybody's idea of reasonable effort is different. For me,
                  when I was working full time, reasonable effort was working 14 hour days in
                  order to achieve my goals. It was spending money that I didn't have to get
                  the tools I needed. It was sacrificing my personal and social life to make my
                  business a success.

                  For some people, they'd rather be homeless than do all that.
                  I think if you sold a product and it required you to

                  * work 14 hour days
                  * spend money you don't have

                  to achieve your goals (and what the product PROMISED and IMPLIED), then most people would not actually define that as 'reasonable effort' (and neither would the FTC) but in fact 'unreasonable effort' (especially the part about spending money you don't have...)

                  "rea·son·a·bleAdjective/ˈrēz(ə)nəbəl/
                  1. (of a person) Having sound judgment; fair and sensible.
                  2. Based on good sense: "a reasonable request". More »
                  Dictionary.com - Answers.com - Merriam-Webster - The Free Dictionary"

                  I personally find it a little odd that you would then go on to write "For some people, they'd rather be homeless than do all that", as if it was a matter of 'do that or be homeless'. Perhaps you weren't trying to say that???

                  When you start dealing with broad generalizations, that's when you get
                  into trouble. To say that a product is a scam or misleading because it
                  requires more than "reasonable" effort opens up a whole can of worms
                  that, trust me, you do NOT want to open.
                  "reasonable' - dictionary definition above involved the words 'fair' and 'sensible'. I think you can get a pretty good idea of reasonable that most people would agree with... certainly with what your target market thinks. I mean, as marketers, we do take the time to research our target market don't we?

                  Because if you compare most people's work ethic to what mine used to be
                  when I needed to work, you'll lose every time.
                  It sounds like you have a single mindedness and a strong work ethic. But if, for example, you used that to base a product's claims on, if you extrapoloated that to the people whom you were trying to sell to, without taking into account the reality for those people (in your target market), and more importantly, not telling them about the sacrifices (time, money etc) along the way, then it would be misleading if your sales copy implied they could achieve that success without time, effort, money invested.

                  So again, where do we draw the line? At what point do we simply say...

                  "Hey stupid...use some freaking common sense. If something sounds too good
                  to be true, it probably is."

                  That train of thought has always worked for me anyway.
                  I think we draw the line every day, by choosing carefully what we say and how we say it, and whether we fudge over the details (or not).
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      • Profile picture of the author Chri5123
        Originally Posted by ExRat View Post

        Hi Chri5123,



        This fallacy comes up in every one of these discussions.

        'Because beer is sold in this way, then it must be OK for me to sell things this way too.'

        But what if that beer commercial is unethical or morally wrong?
        I didn't say this!

        I am simply stating that IS the way beer is sold!

        There are enough beer drinkers to prove that they don't disagree that much.


        Originally Posted by ExRat View Post


        A few posts back Shaun claimed that he successfully sells things but never in that way, hence your statement is false - 'EVERYTHING' is not sold in that way, unless Shaun is lying.
        I am not calling anyone a liar nor am I going to pick my words so carefully because this is an open discussion and I would hope people can take my thoughts not as gospel.

        I simply said that MOST if not EVERY successful product I have seen focuses on selling the BENEFITS of that product.

        Show me a product that is sold by not mentioning the benefits of that product?

        If YOU buy that product and you do not get the advertised benefits for WHATEVER reason does that mean it was missold?

        Chris
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  • Profile picture of the author Marketing Merit
    Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe View Post

    What people really buy is the dream, the idea - never the work that goes along with it.
    I think that quote sums up the position succinctly John

    However, Internet Marketers play their part in this dreamworld fantasy. How many times have we all read copy that says something along the lines of "automatic cash income" or "copy me and earn $10,000 working just 4 hours a week."

    People want to believe it and the copy plays on this desire.

    I can honestly say that I do have numerous sites that now generate income, on auto-pilot, with very little maintenance from myself. HOWEVER, I had to put the work in first to get them to that stage.

    I think of IM as pushing a large round boulder up and over the top of a mountain. You bust a gut getting it to the top but, once you've reached the summit, the boulder rolls freely down the other side, with little or no effort.
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  • Profile picture of the author sal64
    Mmmmmmm, I love the smell of irony just before bedtime.

    So what's worse?

    Someone selling a cr@p WSO or an affiliate marketer who posts reviews on products he has never used or owned?

    @ Big Mike: you posted the following...

    Every time someone buys up some crappy WSO for seven bucks that doesn't come close to delivering, they're casting a vote. They're sending a message to the seller that the market demands these kinds of worthless products.

    Not sure about this, because you often cannot tell if something is good or bad. However, the customer should never be afraid of leaving a negative review if warranted.
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  • Profile picture of the author Kurt
    Posted by JohnMcCabe
    But are they "taking advantage of the dreamers" or are they giving them what they really crave?
    Here's the problem I have with this comment, it puts all buyers in the same "group" and that is all buyers are dreamers.

    Let's say this is 99% true...What about the 1% that take really take action and apply the "dream strategies" and fail, not because of what they did, but because of what they were told to do? Where do they factor into the discussion?
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  • Profile picture of the author sadiecopywriter
    Gyms do the same thing. Do you know how many gym memberships go unused every year? Me either, but I bet it's a lot.
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  • Profile picture of the author BabyMama
    What an interesting thread. I definatly believe that there are so many people online who are dreaming about making money and want something for nothing.

    It can be motivating to read a success story of someone and as long an you put the effort in and actually impliment what the WSO tells you to do then potentially your dream may even come true.

    If you are one of these people who is happy to read a book and dream away then I guess you should be satisfied by the high of buying and reading the WSO. It is your choice to implement it or not and if you choose not to then that is not the sellers problem.

    Just my 2c
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  • Profile picture of the author bmotronic
    The person meeting the potential buyer at the Zero Moment of Truth is the affiliate(s). If you hang around this place long enough, or the IM community in general, you will start to notice that you get emails from multiple affiliates about the SAME product from time to time.

    This has a tremendous affect on the buying decision. After enough emails about the same product, you decide "eh, I guess I need to go over to the WF and check this out". Then you might as well just get out your wallet. The sad part is that the affiliates that met you at the Zero Moment of Truth probably don't even know what it is they are promoting...

    In many cases it isn't about the sales thread at all, it is about the affiliate emails. Often, by the time the buyer gets to the thread they have already made their decision...
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  • Profile picture of the author David Keith
    i am one who would definitely lean towards the responsibility being on the buyer rather than the seller.

    lets face it, until people step up their level of personal responsibility, there is always going to be a seller or a fast food chain willing to sell them an easy, probably over-hyped, probably over not good for them product.

    i dont want anyone to regulate McDonalds into selling less hamburgers just because the guy behind me in line eats there everyday and is not taking responsibility for his body. same with wso products. often times people dont realize what it takes to make these products work as advertised. sure the products are over hyped, but that doesn't mean some of us didnt realize that and plan accordingly.

    with all the ftc and other regulations stepping in to "protect people", its my belief that the only thing they are truly accomplishing is a dumbing down of the public in general because it no longer necessary to be smart and think for yourself. this idea that the government will make sure no one can sell me an opportunity that might not work for me is a very scary idea.

    Bernie madoff was only allowed to create a huge ponzi scheme because investors believed someone else was protecting them and making sure things were on the up and up. take away the sec and all those investors would have each checked that situation out more and it likely never would have grown to the level it did.

    now dont get me wrong, i am not for the wild wild west, but we need to be very careful about not putting the responsibility on the individuals.

    lets be clear, most of us with 10+ years experience could make most of the wso products work if we had to. some would work better, some very little. but in truth, i have bought very few that i honestly felt i could not make work to some level.
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    • Profile picture of the author Anonymous Affiliate
      Originally Posted by owslaw123 View Post

      I dont want anyone to regulate McDonalds into selling less hamburgers just because the guy behind me in line eats there everyday and is not taking responsibility for his body. Same with wso products...

      With all the ftc and other regulations stepping in to "protect people", its my belief that the only thing they are truly accomplishing is a dumbing down of the public in general because it no longer necessary to be smart and think for yourself. this idea that the government will make sure no one can sell me an opportunity that might not work for me is a very scary idea.
      Good lord, THANK YOU! I wholeheartedly agree! There's too much daddy-like regulation, and too little self-accountability!
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  • Profile picture of the author David Chung
    Interesting (philosophical?) discussion here.

    After a little consideration I'm thinking that selling 'dreams' is another way of saying you're selling 'possibilities'.

    Selling possibilities is not wrong. Misrepresenting the possibilities you're selling is where it starts to get scammy.

    Misrepresentation

    Let's say you're selling a lottery ticket. You could do it two ways.
    1. Buy this lottery ticket, you could get rich: You're selling a 1 in 10 million chance at wealth. If you sell it as such, and the buyer knows that it's a long shot, nobody's being scammed.
    2. Discover the Easy, Simple Method I Used to Make $50 Million Overnight: Technically this is still possible. But we're in scam territory now.
    Why is the second scammy? It's still the same low probability, but selling a 'method' implies a higher chance of success. I can't really say how much, but certainly higher than 1 in 10 million. Because you're misrepresenting what you're selling, it becomes a scam.

    The Scam O' Meter

    So let's say you sell a WSO and say that anyone can make money with your method. You're selling a 100% Possibility dream, assuming all buyers can and do follow through.

    If the Reality of buyers who apply your method is:
    100% Probability of Success = Definitely not a scam
    1-99% Probability of Success = Marketing. The lower you go farther you get from 'marketing' and the closer you get to 'deceptive marketing' and eventually 'scam'.
    0% Probability of Success = Outright scam

    So [Probability Being 'Sold'] - [Actual Chances] = [Scam O Meter Rating]

    How high on the scam-o-meter do you have to go before it stops being marketing and starts being a scam?

    That's a gray area, but the level of probability misrepresentation you're willing to accept is what will determine your integrity as a marketer.
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    • Profile picture of the author moneycometh
      Great reply to the original post. What I've found is that especially, now in these economic times people are looking for Easy, Fast, Quick, Instant, ways to earn money. Possibly their situations have cause them to be in such dire straights, which leads to irrational expectations, which leads to illusional results.

      My recommendation is before you buy anything especially online, do your due diligence (Google is at your disposal) and check out the person, the product that you are considering before spending your money.

      At least get some assure from other people who've had experience with the product/service. Secondly, after you've done your research and actually have bought the product or service now it is up to you to follow thorough with it.

      Get off the merry go round and take Action.

      What's a four letter word for 'action'? It's called WORK!
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  • Profile picture of the author Chri5123
    There are too many variables here!

    If:

    The product is bad i.e Does not do what it claims no matter how well you adopt the method/teaching then it is a con.

    If the product is good and the sales page is bad - it will not sell at least until it has built up momentum.

    If the product is good and the sales page is good - all is well.

    The problem is that with ALL sales the job is to sell what IS possible.

    Back to the lottery example:

    Watch an advert for the lottery - it doesn't show old ladies eating their meals on wheels checking their numbers and getting upset because they have spent their pensions on the lottery tickets.

    It doesn't show young mums with 8 kids screaming in a council flat checking their numbers and praying for their numbers to come up!

    It shows:

    Fast cars, houses, boats and living the DREAM - it shows what IS possible.

    Same with any fitness product:

    It never shows people that are 18 stone working out and sweating after 5 mins and then sticking the product under the stairs never to be seen again!

    It shows:

    Young attractive models that do not break a sweat when they work out and look stunning!

    Which leads me to conclude:

    Most things are NOT scams - people DO win the lottery, people DO get fit and people DO make a lot of money online.

    No-one can help you with it though.

    You can buy tools to help you win the lottery, get fit and make money online but they are ONLY tools.

    To my knowledge I have never seen a product, book or course that will wake you in the morning and tell you what to say and do to be rich, thin or win the lottery.

    Don't con yourself!

    That is the answer!

    Chris Jones
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  • Profile picture of the author Rick Britton
    how and who can i complain to?

    i paid good money for a WSO and it was completely not delivered in any way?

    i did ask for refund but the vendor refused saying he had done too much work

    he has sent me about 10 ebooks but most of the content is nothing new

    any advice?
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  • Profile picture of the author vtotheyouknow
    This kind of points to a deeper issue we have to face as marketers.

    Should we push people's emotional hot buttons and become master copywriters, essentially appealing to their irrational impulse to buy, or do we just tell them how it is - here's the product, the rest is up to you?

    Hmmm
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    • Profile picture of the author paulie888
      Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill View Post

      There doesn't have to be a conflict. If you deliver what you promise, there's nothing at all wrong with selling the product. Nearly every sale is based on an emotional decision. There's nothing unethical about selling.
      There is definitely a fine line between enticing (but accurate/true) sales copy and blatant misrepresentation and hype, but without good (and ethical) sales copy you would find yourself hard-pressed to sell anything online.

      There's nothing wrong with ethical marketing, if done properly. You see marketing all around you in the physical world, and I'm pretty sure many of us have been subjected to the late-night infomercials that border very closely on hype, yet stay within the guidelines of the FTC and other marketing authorities.

      Without some "window dressing" in the form of marketing that appeals to the masses, multinational companies like Apple, Sony and Motorola would not have been able to sell their products on such a massive scale.

      This fine line is definitely crossed sometimes with WSOs, but that's wherethe mods and members (with their ability to self-police) can help. Of course, no system is ever foolproof, but I think this comes fairly close.
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  • Profile picture of the author Kai Pei
    Interesting Argument - "To buy or not to buy"

    Dream chasers make the economy go 'round. Big dreams - little dreams - they all fuel the buying cycle of whatever product/service is being offered. That includes everything from beloved IM products to the stuff you see on late night infomercials.

    People will forever buy the solution to their problems.

    What people choose to do with the product after purchasing is ultimately up to them. You can't blame the merchant for sharing their wares. We're all in it to make a buck. We all have mouths to feed.

    You'll find health clubs packed with New Year's resolutions and guilty consciences exploding in January. But a month later, you see attendance diving like lemmings off a cliff.

    Can't blame the health club owner for people being lazy. :rolleyes:
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    • Profile picture of the author Jill Carpenter
      Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe View Post


      If people buy a dream and never really intend to pursue it, and they get to experience the high of buying, were they really scammed? Or did they get exactly what they really wanted?

      Fire up the popcorn machine, and let's have some fun...
      I buy some things for what I consider "entertainment purposes only."

      I even have some "friends" who fall into that category. lol

      Anyway, I think the majority of those are not so much scammed but more so misinformed on what they are buying. They are convinced they need a ferrari when they really could do just fine with a little scooter.

      I would have no clue how to handle or drive a Ferrari. For that reason alone I would never get one - or want one if it was being just handed over to me for free.

      Heck, I don't even want a scooter. Too loud, and while I was turned on by them years ago - like a vintage vespa type thing - I wouldn't want it today. I love how they look, but it is not a sensible purchase knowing myself.

      I really think I could do some serious damage with an electric bicycle! But even recently I realized it would be purely for entertainment and not feasible for regular transport to and from downtown (about 7 miles). Only because we get a LOT of fog here and in the end a car would be a million times more effective and safer to stick with.

      I actually have some WSO's that are products - not MMO plans - which I still have yet to use. Was I scammed because I felt compelled for some reason to purchase? Maybe

      No. Not really .

      There is actually a sales ploy or tactic - I heard about it recently and it makes a LOT of sense. And something that I myself realized I used to do.

      I would buy some clothes or things I didn't really need - because they were on sale. Not just any sale but they were like 90 percent off or something silly like that that how could I say no? I felt like I was saving a TON of money, yet did I really need what I was getting? Some were clothes that had the tags still on them. I held onto them for 10 years on some of them - and never wore them. Or they were items I never wound up using.

      Not sure if it has been the massive amount of times I have had to move in the last few years or with age comes wisdom but I finally realized it was time to let a lot of things go. I had dreams with those things. That is all it was. And I did get the rush from spending and thinking I was saving so much.

      Good will has some really nice things now. And in the end it did feel good that those things may help someone who really does need them.

      We have a lot of folks calling scam when it is not. But we also do have a good amount of charlatans (they don't even know they are) with some of the offers in the WSO.

      In the end, people need to take a step back, know what they really want. Or accept what they are buying is purely for entertainment purposes only.
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  • Profile picture of the author Kay King
    the guy had a list of "reviews" from all the big faces saying how awesome his deal was, he promised to deliver XYZ and then didnt come close, refuses to refund and substitutes a load of ebooks in place
    I can't find a WSO thread you've posted in where you say "where is the product I paid for". Why haven't you posted in the thread about what you think is a scam?

    Has that WSO been deleted - or have you failed to give a "review" about your experience? Just curious as that's the first thing you should do if you think you've been "had".

    kay
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
    I will go through and read the responses in a bit, but I wanted to give my off-the-cuff response first.

    No, as a WSO seller, I would say I am NOT a "dream merchant", BUT I will happily sell to dreamers if they want to buy my product.

    Here's where I see the distinction: My products may appeal to some dreamers, and they can certainly continue dreaming after buying my products, BUT at the same time my products are actionable and effective.

    In other words, everything is there for people to make use of. If they are stuck in "dream mode" then their purchase will only collect virtual dust. HOWEVER, if they are in "action mode" they can put it to use right away. Also, if they switch from "dream mode" to "action mode" then my product will be right there waiting for them.

    So, to sum it up, I only think it's "dream stealing" if the product itself has nothing actionable in it; otherwise, it's on the buyer and not the seller (apart from a few exceptions).

    All the best,
    Michael

    p.s. My apologies if I'm just repeating what others have said, but I wanted to give a gut response and didn't want any other comments to color my response.
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    • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
      You people are freaking amazing!

      I posted this expecting it to go like most of the threads I start - get a few replies and sink into the lower pages.

      Instead, we're on the third page of mostly thoughtful replies, including a bunch of people we don't see come out to play very often.

      Again, thanks to all, and keep it coming...
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  • Profile picture of the author mattlaclear
    First of all in order for a dream to be a dream it has to be born from within. I dreamed of owning my own business before I even learned to tie my shoes. It's a flame I have held and nurtured ever since. As a result of this there isn't any type of product or service failure that I purchase that could even put a dent into my dreams.

    So if you're someone who generates your dreams from reading the copy of others then you're completely clueless to what a dream even is. Because there isn't anything hell can unleash at it that can take it away from you if it was genuine.

    Microwavable dreams are extremely perishable with shelf lives counted in minutes not entire lifetimes.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mr Bill
    I got a lot of my dreams from reading copy and books personally. I dream of freedom mostly, starting off with financial freedom. Until someone "pointed out" to me I could have anything even remotely close to financial freedom I was stuck in the negative factory worker's mentality. Sometimes copy and books are the spark of dreams of a better life. I think WSOs (if they are useful) help people achieve their (financial)dreams - even if only in a small way (as facilitators).
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    • Profile picture of the author drmani
      Could this debate be, at least in part, 'generational'?

      I recently read an AMAZING issue of Ben Settle's ezine, where he
      pointed out some advantages 'Gen-X' ers have over preceding Boomers,
      or the subsequent 'Gen Y'ers.

      A quote:

      I don't think baby boomers and Gen Y'ers or today's narcissistic
      whiney little "Gen Texters" have the advantages my brood have.

      Here's what I mean:
      and he goes on to highlight 4 major distinctions, before ending with:

      Since then, we've had the "cut & paste" generation.

      No attention to detail.

      No time invested to do the job right.

      And thus, (I'd bet) no real joy in earning what they take.

      Anyway, that's my opinion.

      Obviously, not all GenX'ers are cool.

      And it doesn't mean the other generations all suck.

      This is just a brain fart about generational advantages.

      (So let's keep this in context, k?)

      Even so, I suppose I should brace myself for the onslaught of
      "yeah but!" comments that will zing into my inbox from members of
      the other generations.

      But that's okay.

      That kind of whining will simply prove my point.

      And daddy enjoys being proven right...
      Think there's something to it as it pertains to "buying without
      thinking" - and then "blaming without taking responsibility" that's
      going around this discussion?

      All success
      Dr.Mani
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  • Profile picture of the author dagaul101
    I suppose to many folks who are new to it, and don't understand how it works, anything can be construed as a scam
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  • Profile picture of the author vitalgirl
    Originally Posted by precious007 View Post

    It's not impossible. Anyone that has a solid budget of lets say $100K - $200K can start investing into a list of prospects and start offering consulting. I could I just don't have that much money to invest right now.
    sorry, i laughed out loud when i read that. Are people with $100 to $200 K sitting around doing nothing really this guy's target audience? With that kind of money you can buy a lot of (small) offline businesses & with a marketing budget of $5000 per month - well - you're laughing (especially if you also have the online skills to develop a presence online for that small business).
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  • Profile picture of the author Andrew Davis
    To address the original question: "Are WSO "Dream Merchants" Really Scamming People?"

    I don't think that all WSO sellers try to scam people.
    Some definitely do, maybe most, but not all.

    One problem, is that WSO writers tend to exaggerate things.
    They convince you (for example) that you will start earning $100 per day, STARTING TODAY, with only 2 hours of work.

    Stuff like this is misleading and plays with people's emotions.

    The WSO writer in most cases, definitely knows that it will take more work than that, to get money flowing.

    (Even though, theoretically, it may be possible to accomplish in the stated time-frame)


    Of course the buyer should use his logic to determine if that is realistic or not, but it's hard to distrust what the WSO seller says, because they 'decorate' their sales pages so well to be convincing, which is also supported by reviews from other Warriors.


    So the next problem of course is, the buyer not taking action.
    Why don't they take action in most cases?

    It's because they were led to believe, that they can start making $100/day TODAY, with just 2 hours of work.

    Once they read the entire WSO, they realize that the task isn't nearly as easy as explained, they give up before starting.

    It would take 1-2 weeks of hard work to achieve the said results.
    So they get discouraged, and never take action.


    People come to the WSO forums looking for the "Magic Button" that will make them rich with as little work as possible.

    Thus, the problem is on both sides:

    1) Buyers have unrealistic expectations of wanting to get rich with too little work.

    2) Sellers take advantage of this weakness, and promise to give buyers their "Dream", when they are just selling any other normal business plan.
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  • Profile picture of the author Rus Sells
    Dreams are sold every 20 minutes on Television, if those aren't breaking any of the FTC rules how much different are some of the titles and pitches in the wso section?

    Granted, I can do without the over the top stuff that just seems to good to really be true.

    The rest of this thread just makes my head ache! lol
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  • Profile picture of the author markhimeb
    they are scamming only those who are looking to be scammed
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  • Profile picture of the author sal64
    An interesting point raised on here as well...

    Sure a WSO promise can be real and actionable. But is it legal?

    Personally, I prefer not to have my site pulled down due to some black-hat tactic which I used innocently. In this case, full disclosure from the vendor is warranted.

    Many thanks.

    Sal
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    Internet Marketing: 20% Internet - 80% Marketing!
    You Won't See The Light Until You Open Your Eyes.
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  • Profile picture of the author Istvan Horvath
    Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill View Post

    If someone offers you a system for 47 bucks that will make 10k, simply offer to pay from your first profits. If they refuse, they're scammers.

    Simple enough.
    Yep. For days I have a WSO open in a tab where they sell a method that promises 2 million visitors and $xx,xxx revenue - all for $5 only!

    I am so tempted to offer $100 hard cash if they demonstrate on one of my sites that the thing is working, LOL :p
    Heck, I'd even offer $1,000 if they reproduce (repeat) the numbers from the sales page with my site.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mr Bill
    Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill View Post

    If someone offers you a system for 47 bucks that will make 10k, simply offer to pay from your first profits. If they refuse, they're scammers.

    Simple enough.
    Bunkum, so I would be a scammer because I don't want to give my product out for free to the whole world then sit back and hope that one day everyone comes back to pay? Seriously.

    Patrick, of course you raise some good points on crooked dealings but with respect I've really not see a WSO that would get you into any trouble let alone that much. Maybe I'm just good at avoiding them by reading the description and understanding balance of probabilities. I was referring to a decent WSO not a crooked one put up by a crooked thief and scammer (which I've never seen - can someone point me to one via PM please?). My example and the way I think of WSOs stands. As an investor I am only looking to get my money back (in either cash or time savings) and some information from a WSO.

    I do feel sorry for anyone who buys one without reading it or being of sound enough mind to accept responsibility for their actions. These are nothing but "micro-tips" being sold to help another fellow marketer. This whole "government taking you down" is referring to a WSO that I have never seen and buyers who I don't believe exist. All the buyers I see and speak to buy them with all eyes wide open and certainly wouldn't be doing anything crooked or bad and if they do then good luck to them. If someone hints at doing something un-cool (let alone illegal!) I'd ignore it or ask for my money back if it's vastly different to what they promised it would be.

    For the overwhelming part the bad under prepared WSOs stand out like it's highlighted, the rest are fine and are simply tips to use. I think some people are taking this far too seriously. As far as I can see and tell this is just people handing out tips to others for a few bucks. The freedom headlines are also true in most cases as well - unless of course you consider freedom to be defined as having millions (which it's not). If you were to do everything the writer says and take it to the Nth degree and really immerse yourself you should be able to make enough money to either add substantially to your bottom line or even use the income from it to break free from "the wage". Sure, some won't but that doesn't mean they don't hold some bits of useful information or that they are not happy with the value of the information.

    In any case I would spend $10 to save $12 every time let alone make my $10 back and more. My investment analogy is a good one and that's how I and almost everyone I speak to looks at it. No one runs off and does illegal things without know what they are doing - at least not from something they learned in a WSO.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mr Bill
      Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill View Post

      Why not? If you offer a guarantee that it will make your customer money, sell it on a net 30.

      After all, you're not at any risk, right? It's a sure thing. All your client has to do is follow a few easy steps.

      You're not telling me that it doesn't work. are you?

      That surely couldn't be.
      You're not telling me your actually going to come back in 30 days and pay me are you? Even the briefest examination of human character will tell you that is going to lead to only one thing...a lot of waiting.

      Net 30, mmm. I would have to prove that the buyer got value to demand the money via a legal process of debt collection? Not sure that would work too well on the internet for information and how to products. It would probably work ok for a plumber or local service because you can go and bang on their door but how do I chase someone half a world away who may not even be who they say they are after 30 days?

      I would rather offer a guarantee. "...listen, you pay me and I'll give you my product as a fair exchange and I'll give you back your money within 30 days if you can prove what I say is not true, will not work as claimed...etc". I think a guarantee works better than "please promise to pay me if you like it".

      I'm the only one at risk with a "pay me later if you like it" model online. I risk losing income if you don't want to pay for something you've already consumed.

      Personally I think the real issue is overstated sales copy. Headlines can be swept aside, I scroll so fast past all the testimonials it's a blur but the core promise must be clear and leave room for over delivery. Normal good business practices apply here as they do anywhere and have done for thousands of years. Quality + Value = Good commerce. The market will sort you out soon enough.
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    • Profile picture of the author ExRat
      Hi WSOHelp (post #132),

      Originally Posted by WSOHelp View Post

      No one runs off and does illegal things without know what they are doing - at least not from something they learned in a WSO.
      With respect, you haven't been around here that long, have you? The statement I have quoted above is clearly incorrect.

      Hi Thomas (Belknap - post#124),

      The buyer should know that pushing a button won't give you a million dollars but only leave their hands all brown and smelly.
      I think we need to remember that some peoples' only experiences of the internet are -

      a) a handful of clickbank sales pages that appear to show (to the untrained eye) videos and proof of exactly this, along with videos of real Ferraris etc

      b) Mainstream media stories of people in their basements making websites that these people know of, which sell for billions (youtube, facebook etc)

      c) stories of the dotcom boom

      Most people commenting here on the one side of the argument (not you Thomas, you offered a balanced opinion of which I only quoted a part) are forgetting that due to life experiences or internet marketing exposure, they have developed certain critical thinking skills in terms of spotting BS and scams.

      There are people out there who have lived relatively sheltered lives and in civilised societies (I'm not too sure if ours qualifies as that currently in the West) those people are (or should be) typically protected from inflated, misleading and nefarious claims within marketing material.

      Just because someone is lacking in critical thinking skills does not mean that they 'deserve what they get' - it does not give anyone a license to mislead them in order to extract money from them.

      There is a reason for this and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to work it out, particularly if you consider what is happening in our societies currently.

      Generalising somewhat - those people who lack those thinking skills often do so because they don't need those skills very often, because they choose to live in a kind of bubble, the opposite kind of bubble to the one that someone who calls themselves 'Gordon Gecko' and adopts the mantra 'greed is good' lives in.

      The first person's bubble is more often than not the one where it's perfectly acceptable to do things purely out of the goodness of their heart for someone else - because they can and because they enjoy it and it makes them feel good.

      If we allow the Gordon Geckos of the world to take everything from those people by stealth, what kind of world is left?
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      Roger Davis
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      • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
        Originally Posted by ExRat View Post

        Just because someone is lacking in critical thinking skills does not mean that they 'deserve what they get'
        Technically, you deserve what the sales copy says you will get.

        If your critical skills are insufficient to understand what you will get, that doesn't change what you deserve.
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        "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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      • Profile picture of the author Tom B
        Banned
        Originally Posted by ExRat View Post


        Generalising somewhat - those people who lack those thinking skills often do so because they don't need those skills very often, because they choose to live in a kind of bubble, the opposite kind of bubble to the one that someone who calls themselves 'Gordon Gecko' and adopts the mantra 'greed is good' lives in.
        Hi Roger,

        Since we are generalizing...

        Well, we do have laws to protect the feeble minded. In fact, we will be having more and more laws enacted to protect ourselves since our society seems to be getting dumber at an alarming rate.

        Personally, I think people should be able to learn from their mistakes and be allowed to make them. It didn't take me long to learn that fire is hot and not to touch it.

        You got people like Billy Bob who thinks it is proper to punish his child by slapping him in the face and head. Now, every parent can get into trouble even if they pat their child on the butt as punishment. We can't even discipline our kids anymore because we want to protect them from ourselves.

        Personally, I am getting tired of idiots doing stupid things and then complaining about them. The only things that happen is them continuing to be stupid and a little more of my freedom is taken away because they can't learn to not be stupid.
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        • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
          Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

          Personally, I am getting tired of idiots doing stupid things and then complaining about them. The only things that happen is them continuing to be stupid and a little more of my freedom is taken away because they can't learn to not be stupid.
          Yup, some days it sure seems like there should be a new filter on the gene pool...

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          • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
            Okay, folks, here's another one. I lifted the following quote from a report almost ten years old, by our own Paul Myers. Paul was talking about sales copy that played to the Ultimate Benefit people seek, and how it could be misused...

            Making this work takes practice and thought, as well as a lot of sensitivity. You really want to be sure that you're respecting the prospect's legitimate desires, rather than just banging away at unfocused emotions.
            How much of the rancor directed at WSO sellers is due to actual crappy products, and how much is due to the reaction to "banging away at unfocused emotions" while failing to deliver the Ultimate Benefit promised?
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            • Profile picture of the author Ray Erdmann
              Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe View Post

              Okay, folks, here's another one. I lifted the following quote from a report almost ten years old, by our own Paul Myers. Paul was talking about sales copy that played to the Ultimate Benefit people seek, and how it could be misused...



              How much of the rancor directed at WSO sellers is due to actual crappy products, and how much is due to the reaction to "banging away at unfocused emotions" while failing to deliver the Ultimate Benefit promised?
              IMHO, it's more "banging away at unfocused emotions"...with WSO's based on theory rather then personal usage/experience!

              I'm all for selling the SIZZLE..but do so honestly and with integrity and real-world experience...not hearse or fiction.
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        • Profile picture of the author Patrick Pretty
          Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post


          Since we are generalizing...

          Well, we do have laws to protect the feeble minded. In fact, we will be having more and more laws enacted to protect ourselves since our society seems to be getting dumber at an alarming rate.
          Hello Thomas,

          You've made it clear that you're generalizing, so let me add my own generalization:

          It is easy to forget that the Internet is still "new." It seems clear to me that some of its sales tentacles have evolved in ruinous ways. I'm less sure that society is getting dumber at an alarming rate. I think it much more likely that hucksters who specialize in targeting vulnerable populations have found the Internet to be the greatest crime tool ever to come along -- and I'm positive that society simply is not going to tolerate it. The costs are too high, the economic consequences too devastating, the security implications too murky.

          It is literally true these days that a single IM fraud case can create more victims than the largest sports stadium in the United States can accommodate. It often is true that the schemes suck in vulnerable populations, but the lion's share of victims generally are ordinary people with no disabilities or physical or intellectual limitations. Lots of the victims have advanced educations.

          The Internet, unlike late-night TV infomercials, always is "on," too. On TV, the damage an infomercial scammer can do is limited to the audience he can attract in the middle of the night. But the infomercials run 24/7/365 online, which causes the fraud proceeds to mushroom, increases the victims' count and also tends to make the damage international in scope.

          Crime/hucksterism never sleeps. It shows up in relatively mild ways -- drive-by posters trying to get a link in the WF and bots trying to plant spam links, for instance. But there is a multiplier effect, because the drive-by posters and spambots don't limit themselves to one venue. My Blog generally experiences at least 250 spamming attempts per day -- 3,140 in the first 12 days of September alone.

          It also shows up in cancerous and absolutely ruinous ways, stealing money by the tens of millions of dollars (often in relatively small denominations that combine to make a huge sum) -- or in grandiose schemes in which the scammers fine-tune their targeting and go for the large score from a smaller pool of individuals.

          Billions on dollars -- gone in the blink of an eye.

          There is a story today that is not so much about IM, although there are many similar IM scams. A guy in Texas stole millions of dollars from senior citizens, including a woman with dementia. He is going to jail for 15 years, and he's already 77, so it's pretty much a life sentence.

          He was a brick-and-mortar guy, but the kind of scam he ran is very common on the Internet -- and the purveyors of the schemes typically use affiliate marketers to line the coffers. The Feds recently have gone after affiliate marketers, alleging that they accepted at face value what the "program" sponsor said and conducted no independent research. In other words, it was GIGO: the sponsor served up garbage, and the affiliates re-served it to their lists and on website and Blog postings.

          Garbage in, garbage out -- until virality to one degree or another was achieved.

          Lots of IMers are dreamsellers or the affiliates of dreamsellers. IMHO, the dreamsellers would be wise to make sure the dreams they are selling are verifiable in a real-world context -- and the affiliates of the dreamsellers would be wise not to accept the often-outrageous claims at face value.

          The word "blindly" -- as in the affiliate or solicitor "blindly" promoted the offer -- soon may become a common word in IM-related prosecutions. I have seen it used twice in recent cases.

          Patrick
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          • Profile picture of the author Tom B
            Banned
            Originally Posted by Patrick Pretty View Post

            Hello Thomas,


            It is literally true these days that a single IM fraud case can create more victims than the largest sports stadium in the United States can accommodate. It often is true that the schemes suck in vulnerable populations, but the lion's share of victims generally are ordinary people with no disabilities or physical or intellectual limitations. Lots of the victims have advanced educations.
            Hi Patrick,

            I agree that a lot of people do fall victims to sinister acts. I also feel very bad for a lot of those people that were gullible enough to believe.

            Luckily, we are seeing some people being brought to justice and I imagine it will happen more and more. Rightly so...

            I think people need to take a look at themselves and figure out why they fell for such schemes. I would bet they allowed their own greed to take control instead of listening to their inner voices saying "this sounds too good to be true."

            Greed is major emotion scammers use to screw people over. You see it on this forum.

            With that said, how many times do you allow greed to dictate what you know you should be doing? I am talking about the people that continue making the wrong decisions based on greed.

            On this forum, you see people complaining about purchasing a wso product that didn't deliver on the million dollars promised. Yet, they decide to purchase another product promising 100k. I makes no sense and I hardly call these people victims at this point.


            Lots of IMers are dreamsellers or the affiliates of dreamsellers. IMHO, the dreamsellers would be wise to make sure the dreams they are selling are verifiable in a real-world context -- and the affiliates of the dreamsellers would be wise not to accept the often-outrageous claims at face value.
            Exactly what I tried to say in my first post on this thread. You just seem to say it so much nicer.

            As I said previously, sellers have a huge responsibility when selling their products. Making money is just as easy doing it the legal, ethical way as it is trying to scam people. In fact, I would say it is easier when you think about your business in the long term.
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        • Profile picture of the author ExRat
          Hi Thomas,

          Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

          Personally, I think people should be able to learn from their mistakes and be allowed to make them. It didn't take me long to learn that fire is hot and not to touch it.

          You got people like Billy Bob who thinks it is proper to punish his child by slapping him in the face and head. Now, every parent can get into trouble even if they pat their child on the butt as punishment. We can't even discipline our kids anymore because we want to protect them from ourselves.

          Personally, I am getting tired of idiots doing stupid things and then complaining about them. The only things that happen is them continuing to be stupid and a little more of my freedom is taken away because they can't learn to not be stupid.
          So now we're getting somewhere closer to the crux of the issue.

          Let's use the child abuse analogy you've raised, as it's demonstrative, along with the actual topic.

          We can argue all day for one side of the argument - we can say -

          Personally, I am getting tired of idiots doing stupid things and then complaining about them.
          (Are you talking about 'stupid' consumers who get ripped off and complain, or 'stupid' sellers who over-promise, under-deliver and then complain when Paypal freezes their account?)

          Or we could say -

          'Personally, I'm tired of the undisciplined kids who throw stuff at my house.'

          But we could also say -

          'Personally, I'm tired of shoddy parenting.'

          Or, 'personally, I'm tired of scammy sellers.'

          My country, for example, has many people who are tired of undisciplined, feral kids.

          But my country also has a similar amount of people who are tired of discovering that adults abuse their kids for their own gratification, because they don't like or respect them, because it's easier to hit them and shout at them than to take the time to reason with them and educate them - ironically, behaviour that often leads to undisciplined, feral kids.

          There is an argument for both sides, whether it's bad parenting or whether it's bad business practices. The answer lies somewhere in the middle. With everything in life, balance or moderation is the way to get the best out of something, excess is the path to problems.

          The solutions aren't likely to be found when people seeking them take a personal stance on one side or the other, except when they're doing so to demonstrate a point in order to establish that ANY deviation towards either extreme is not a good thing.

          EG -

          Too many unruly kids - not good.

          Too many violent, lazy parents - not good.

          Too many rogue sellers ripping people off - not good.

          Too many regulations hampering honest business people - not good.

          Balance between the two is generally the ideal solution. Unfettered capitalism is a problem - we can all see that with the recent financial crisis, partly caused by the scrapping of regulations. On the other hand, if they counter this by trying to solve it through over-regulation, growth will decline as business is hamstrung by beaurocracy. Neither is a good thing. A balance, a middle-ground is likely to provide the solution.

          See how simple it is to get some clarity here?

          Now watch a stream of posts follow this one putting across a one-sided, personally biased viewpoint and play 'spot the seller' and 'spot the consumer'.
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          Roger Davis
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          • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
            @ExRat

            Roger, you made what is probably one of the best posts in this whole thread
            when you replied to Thomas. As much as I want to stand by my "just refund
            the damn piece of crap if it sucks" argument, yes, there has to be some
            responsibility on both sides.

            The consumer should use a little intelligence and ask for refunds if the product
            doesn't live up to expectations (not to mention to do a little due diligence
            before even buying and research the seller to begin with) and the seller should
            at least try to put out an honest product.

            In reality however, are we ever going to have this across the board? Not
            likely. Human nature is what it is.

            There are those who will always look for the fast buck (check the lottery
            lines if you don't believe me) and there will always be those looking to take
            advantage of those people. One need only look at all the HYIPs that have
            been shut down over the years for that.

            All we can hope for, realistically, is that each person do their part to make
            a little piece of this world a little better.

            That means as a consumer, don't use your head just for a hat rack.

            As a seller, get the dollar signs out of your eyeballs.

            It might help you see just a little better.

            My additional 2 cents on the subject.
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              • Profile picture of the author rts2271
                Caveat Emptor....
                A fool and his money....
                Life is tough. It's even more tough if your stupid....

                I think refunds on all Info products should be mandated null and void by the merchant account vendors. Lets see how long this blatant buyer irresponsibility continues if customers can't treat vendors like a genies lamp and if not satisfied with their poor decisions, withdraw their cash from "the bank".

                People will do their due diligence, The wave of get rich quick will slow to a trickle and the lemming effect will no longer feed the market. But it will never go away. Watch a couple of episodes of hoarders and you will see dumb people will buy dumb stuff cause it fills a hole daddy left in them from beating them with a hickory when they were 7.
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                Ralph Smith
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                • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
                  Originally Posted by rts2271 View Post

                  I think refunds on all Info products should be mandated null and void by the merchant account vendors. Lets see how long this blatant buyer irresponsibility continues if customers can't treat vendors like a genies lamp and if not satisfied with their poor decisions, withdraw their cash from "the bank".

                  People will do their due diligence, The wave of get rich quick will slow to a trickle and the lemming effect will no longer feed the market. But it will never go away. Watch a couple of episodes of hoarders and you will see dumb people will buy dumb stuff cause it fills a hole daddy left in them from beating them with a hickory when they were 7.
                  Either that, or the real scammers will think they landed in Valhalla. Imagine the glee when Joe Scammer finds out he never has to issue another refund! Oh, happy day!

                  I appreciate the sentiment. Sometimes the best way to learn to fight is to get your nose bloodied a few times until you learn to duck.

                  But giving those already inclined to be dishonest an open license to lie, cheat and steal is not the answer...
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                  • Profile picture of the author rts2271
                    Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe View Post

                    Either that, or the real scammers will think they landed in Valhalla. Imagine the glee when Joe Scammer finds out he never has to issue another refund! Oh, happy day!

                    I appreciate the sentiment. Sometimes the best way to learn to fight is to get your nose bloodied a few times until you learn to duck.

                    But giving those already inclined to be dishonest an open license to lie, cheat and steal is not the answer...
                    I understand the point, but when you remove the faux regulation market pressure will push the scammers into a pigeonhole. Sure there will still be a small % around and new ones popping up all the time.

                    Let me put it this way. In the last 5 years how many new rules and regulations have popped up to deal with this online. In the last 100 years how many consumer protection rackets have pooped up offline, and how much of it has really impacted the dedicated scammers?

                    It's like gun control. Take NY for example, by far one of the worst states for gun control and yet also one of the worst states for gun violence. Why? Cause criminals don't care about laws. In fact the laws clear out the low hanging fruit and make it a target rich environment. Remove gun control laws and all of the sudden gun crime nearly disappears. Kennesaw GA as a example requires all homeowners to own and maintain at least one firearm. It has virtually no gun crime. Regulations protect criminals, that's why Banks cry foul but lobby for new ones all the time. Its why GE is going to bank on the incandescent bulb ban that they lobbied for on the back end and cried about on the front end. They own nearly all the CF patents.
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                    • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
                      Originally Posted by rts2271 View Post

                      I understand the point, but when you remove the faux regulation market pressure will push the scammers into a pigeonhole. Sure there will still be a small % around and new ones popping up all the time.

                      Let me put it this way. In the last 5 years how many new rules and regulations have popped up to deal with this online. In the last 100 years how many consumer protection rackets have pooped up offline, and how much of it has really impacted the dedicated scammers?

                      It's like gun control. Take NY for example, by far one of the worst states for gun control and yet also one of the worst states for gun violence. Why? Cause criminals don't care about laws. In fact the laws clear out the low hanging fruit and make it a target rich environment. Remove gun control laws and all of the sudden gun crime nearly disappears. Kennesaw GA as a example requires all homeowners to own and maintain at least one firearm. It has virtually no gun crime. Regulations protect criminals, that's why Banks cry foul but lobby for new ones all the time. Its why GE is going to bank on the incandescent bulb ban that they lobbied for on the back end and cried about on the front end. They own nearly all the CF patents.
                      Ralph, I understand your reasoning, and I can't find much fault with it.

                      I do see the requirement to issue refunds unless it's part of the deal from the beginning as a way of keeping the honest people honest. Kind of like locking your car doors. It won't keep a serious thief from getting your electronics, or the whole car, but it will keep an otherwise honest person from yielding to temptation.
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          • Profile picture of the author Tom B
            Banned
            Originally Posted by Anonymous Affiliate View Post

            I TOTALLY agree.

            That's like people blaming the -apparently reckless- banks during the current housing crises because they were given easy mortgages for houses they truly couldn't afford... Well guess what? YOU voluntarily put your signature on that document. No one forced you. You should have been responsible enough to know what you can and what you cannot afford. So if the bank is now taking your house away from you now, it's YOUR responsibility. Next time, freaking don't overstretch your financials beyond your means!

            I think you just proved what Roger was saying.

            This is a great example of greed. I do think a lot of borrowers didn't understand the terms of the loan. Loans can be quite confusing.

            Banks got greedy and decided to forget about qualifications and made more loans. They sold loans as high quality while they knew they were bad.

            The same banks got insurance on those bad loans because they knew there was a high probability there would be a large default. Of course, they didn't say anything to the people that purchased those loans on the secondary market.

            Mortgage brokers and loan officers lied to people. They didn't exactly help the home owner understand that interest rates will rise and so will their payments.

            Home owners got greedy. They cashed in all their equity to purchase other stuff. Now a lot of them have nothing while the government bailed out the banks and made the men responsible even richer.

            Sounds like a great example of what we were talking about.
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            • Profile picture of the author Patrick Pretty
              That's like people blaming the -apparently reckless- banks during the current housing crises because they were given easy mortgages for houses they truly couldn't afford... Well guess what? YOU voluntarily put your signature on that document. No one forced you. You should have been responsible enough to know what you can and what you cannot afford. So if the bank is now taking your house away from you now, it's YOUR responsibility. Next time, freaking don't overstretch your financials beyond your means!
              This is a gross oversimplification that ignores several realities.

              For starters, borrowers often not only did not understand the terms of the note, chicanery on the parts of brokers, appraisers and notaries public led to the creation of a second set of documents. The borrower might have seen one set of documents and signed them, but a different, forged set was submitted to the bank.

              Forged income statements and hyperinflated appraisals were a big part of the fraud. The banks thought their ends would be covered in the event of a default, but were relying on the bogus appraisals. The brokers worked with the appraisers to carry out the fraud, and the borrowers were swept into the morass.

              I saw a case in which a loan was approved on the basis of the forged "signature" of a dead man. I was interviewing his widow in her home when the phone rang. It was a collection agent for the mortgage company. The poor widow later had a panic attack and was hospitalized.

              In another case, I interviewed a woman who lost her home. She signed no papers at all. She found out about the loan only after a collection agent called and threatened to repossess her young daughter's pet dog. The woman's ex-boyfriend arranged the loan in secret, forged the signatures and an employment history with the aid of a corrupt broker who later was sentenced to federal prison -- and the ex bought the pooch with leftover loan proceeds and presented it as a "gift" to the woman's daughter.

              It is true, though, that borrowers were not always innocent parties. Criminal combines are infamous for arranging straw purchasers and lining up co-conspirators, for example.

              And it sometimes is the case that desperate borrowers simply overborrowed: They were upside down when they took out second loans, and the second loans put them HUGELY upside down. Classic predatory lending.

              Patrick
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              • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
                Patrick, my story isn't nearly as dramatic, but it does back up your point.

                My wife and I spent about three years looking at homes here before we finally made the leap. About halfway through, we thought we were ready to buy, and started talking to mortgage brokers. One of the guys we talked to told us to fill out everything but the income statement - he'd fill that in later. Considering that I know the meaning of the word "fraud", we did not use that broker's services.
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                • Profile picture of the author Patrick Pretty
                  Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe View Post

                  Patrick, my story isn't nearly as dramatic, but it does back up your point.

                  My wife and I spent about three years looking at homes here before we finally made the leap. About halfway through, we thought we were ready to buy, and started talking to mortgage brokers. One of the guys we talked to told us to fill out everything but the income statement - he'd fill that in later. Considering that I know the meaning of the word "fraud", we did not use that broker's services.
                  Heck, John, parts of Florida are draining out into the Caribbean. There is a big combine of IM criminals/hucksters in Florida. Some of the money has been linked to narcotics traffickers. Vast sums simply have disappeared.

                  When one "program" collapses or goes missing, it's not unusual for the criminals/hucksters to go after the same marks they fleeced the first time around. They tell them the new "program" is a way to make up their losses.

                  Strange thing is, I don't think it would work as either a novel or a movie. Readers/viewers would have to suspend too much disbelief. News accounts of the various capers read like impossible works of fiction.

                  The only thing for sure is that the situation in Florida and other areas is unprecedented -- and that the Internet is driving the fraud schemes.

                  Patrick
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  • Profile picture of the author Mark Singletary
    According to Blinc Magazine, 16 Base Jumpers were killed in 2010. So who do we blame? ... Mother nature for putting the cliff where it was?
    Dude, if the good Lord didn't want me to jump off that cliff, He wouldn't have put it there.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mark Singletary
    I've seen the quote about selling them what they want and giving them what they need. But you have to be careful.

    If what's really needed to be successful is a lot of money or work or time, don't claim otherwise (no money, work or time needed) in the sales copy. That's a scam.

    Mark
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  • Profile picture of the author Christian Chan
    For every poster here who says it is up to the buyers to be responsible with their purchase, how did you come into such conclusion? Where's the seller's accountability part?

    And if that's how the world works, you will not have FTC coming after scammers. And I have a feeling that they will come near us very soon.
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  • Profile picture of the author Cool Hand Luke
    Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill View Post

    If someone offers you a system for 47 bucks that will make 10k, simply offer to pay from your first profits. If they refuse, they're scammers.

    Simple enough.
    :rolleyes:

    That's a ridiculous and false assertion. Considering a large percentage of WSO buyers make either no effort or a halfhearted effort to actually DO what's in a WSO they buy, why should the WSO merchant take a financial loss?! Why is a person or company a "scammer" if they don't want to give away their product for free?

    If someone offers you a system for 47 bucks that the merchant says can make you 10k, it is YOUR responsibility to look at the reviews of the product, the details of the product, the terms of purchase, and the merchant's history to decide whether or not to buy, not anyone else's.

    Personal responsibility is a MUST for anyone who wants to succeed in business, and it applies directly to deciding when to buy or when not to buy a WSO or any other product.
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    • Profile picture of the author Cool Hand Luke
      Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill View Post

      It's YOUR responsibility to deliver on YOUR promise when YOU sell a product. That's basic business.

      It's also YOUR responsibility to represent YOUR product honestly.

      Personal responsibility also applies to the seller.
      :rolleyes:

      Obviously, Ken, but you missed the point and avoided mine and other's question:

      Again, why should a WSO merchant give away their product for free or be labeled a scammer?

      When you apply for college, do you tell them "Yeah, I'll pay you guys tuition only after I'm done and IF I get a high-paying job and I want to. Wait, you're not ok with that? You're scammers!"

      When you buy a car do you tell the dealership "You say your cars can last up to 100,000 miles? Great, I'll only pay you if and when I drive the car to 100,000 miles. That's not OK? What?! You must be scammers!"

      ...I think you see the point. If you only want to get worthwhile things for free, then stick to the very limited number of things in this world that will allow you to do that.

      The rest of us understand that personal responsibility means looking at a product's details, terms of purchase, warranty or return period, and the merchant's history and reputation and making our own decisions as adults and businesspeople.
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      • Profile picture of the author Cool Hand Luke
        No, you're missing the point. If you promise something, you have the responsibility to deliver. If you can't deliver, don't promise it.
        LOL! Now you're just getting off-topic. Obviously, if a merchant says "you're GUARANTEED a bajillion dollars from this course" then the merchant should abide by his guarantee. But nobody was talking about guarantees. This is a thread about "selling the dream", not making income GUARANTEES. You are REALLY reaching for straws now.

        As for the college analogy, it doesn't hold up. I know of no accredited institution of higher learning that promises any income at all.
        Really? You've never heard a college advertisement, representative, or marketing effort which leads potential students to believe that by PURCHASING an education with them, they will be funneled into careers or jobs which earn money?! They may not say "guaranteed"(again, don't know why you brought that up) but it is by far the #1 reason people go to college, and by far the #1 desire of prospective students which marketers of higher education play into. This is not even debatable.

        The car analogy doesn't hold up, either.
        Yes, it does.

        Reputable dealers guarantee their product for an allotted time or a specific amount of miles and they deliver.
        Yes, this is called a WARRANTY. You get it AFTER you PAY for a car.

        They do not charge customers up front for them, either.
        Yes, they do. Apparently you're unfamiliar with the process of purchasing an automobile. You have to PAY for the car before you get to have it.

        Most people finance them through the dealer or a bank.
        EXACTLY. You have to pay for the car before you get to have it. Whether you buy it directly from the dealership, or from a lending institution, you buy it beforehand, and the dealer gets payed one way or another.

        Do you need the definition of an analogy explained to you as well?

        For the third time, I ask you why a merchant is a "scammer" if he doesn't give his product away for free?

        EDIT: Actually, nevermind. I see that not a single person in this thread agrees with your "Give it away for free use or you're a scammer" idea, so if you haven't got it yet, you're not going to. Oh well, different strokes I guess. Good night everyone!
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  • Profile picture of the author vitalgirl
    there's a great little post by seth godin on 'short term capitalism' which may be relevant to this discussion too (and of course, the imp distinction - not all WSO's or warrior's have a 'short term' mentality)

    "There are a few reasons why one might not care what happens in the long run:

    You don't intend to be around
    You're going to make so much money in the short run it doesn't matter
    You figure you won't get caught

    Short-term marketing involves using deception to make a quick sale, or using aggressive promises to get a quick hit

    ...

    The internet has opened two doors. First, it's easier than ever to do the short-term thing, anonymously if you choose, with a big splash, internet ads, eBay scams and more. On the other hand, since there's a revolution going on, it's also easier than ever to build something that matters, something that lasts.

    The thing to remember about the short-term is that we'll almost certainly be around when the long-term shows up." http://sethgodin.typepad.com/seths_b...apitalism.html
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  • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
    Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill View Post

    If someone offers you a system for 47 bucks that will make 10k, simply offer to pay from your first profits.
    Here's a free system that will make you a couple hundred. Use that one, then come back with $47.

    "But, but, but... I don't want to use that system and make a couple hundred! I want to use this one and make $10k!"

    Then that will be $47.

    My product, my rules. Don't like it? Piss off. Go buy products that suck. It's no skin off my nose if you prefer failure.
    Signature
    "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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    • Profile picture of the author Martin Luxton
      I love people using the Macdonald's coffee case to support their argument!


      Customer = stupid tire kicker after easy money

      Seller = ethical company just filling a demand


      The facts of the case are that Macdonald's were selling scalding hot coffee that they knew was dangerous but they didn't care.

      The Actual Facts about the Mcdonalds' Coffee Case

      During discovery, McDonalds produced documents showing more than 700 claims by people burned by its coffee between 1982 and 1992. Some claims involved third-degree burns substantially similar to Liebecks. This history documented McDonalds' knowledge about the extent and nature of this hazard.
      McDonalds also said during discovery that, based on a consultants advice, it held its coffee at between 180 and 190 degrees fahrenheit to maintain optimum taste. He admitted that he had not evaluated the safety ramifications at this temperature. Other establishments sell coffee at substantially lower temperatures, and coffee served at home is generally 135 to 140 degrees.
      Further, McDonalds' quality assurance manager testified that the company actively enforces a requirement that coffee be held in the pot at 185 degrees, plus or minus five degrees. He also testified that a burn hazard exists with any food substance served at 140 degrees or above, and that McDonalds coffee, at the temperature at which it was poured into styrofoam cups, was not fit for consumption because it would burn the mouth and throat. The quality assurance manager admitted that burns would occur, but testified that McDonalds had no intention of reducing the "holding temperature" of its coffee.

      And here's the kicker

      the judge called McDonalds' conduct reckless, callous and willful.

      Martin
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      • Profile picture of the author Christian Chan
        Originally Posted by Martin Luxton View Post

        I love people using the Macdonald's coffee case to support their argument!


        Customer = stupid tire kicker after easy money

        Seller = ethical company just filling a demand


        The facts of the case are that Macdonald's were selling scalding hot coffee that they knew was dangerous but they didn't care.

        The Actual Facts about the Mcdonalds' Coffee Case




        And here's the kicker




        Martin

        This guy gives better answer than everyone on this thread.
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      • Profile picture of the author BIG Mike
        Banned
        [DELETED]
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        • Profile picture of the author Martin Luxton
          Originally Posted by BIG Mike View Post

          Martin,

          Firstly, all the followup suits were tossed in courts world-wide on this topic because the courts came to the conclusion that most reasonable people do - coffee is supposed to be served hot (55-65 degrees C).
          Mike,

          There's the rub, most reasonable people wouldn't expect coffee to be 180 degrees C, which is what MacDonalds, for operational purposes, was doing.

          And there's the analogy with this thread. Most 'reasonable people' would expect to get what they were promised in a WSO. If they don't, then they are entitled to feel aggrieved.

          Let's face it, just looking at the titles in the WSO Forum you can see there is no way the majority of them can deliver.

          All this stuff about 'caveat emptor' trying to shift the blame to the buyer is a load of bollocks based on a misconception of the legal meaning of the term.
          Caveat emptor

          [Latin, Let the buyer beware.] A warning that notifies a buyer that the goods he or she is buying are "as is," or subject to all defects.

          When a sale is subject to this warning the purchaser assumes the risk that the product might be either defective or unsuitable to his or her needs.
          This rule is not designed to shield sellers who engage in Fraud or bad faith dealing by making false or misleading representations about the quality or condition of a particular product. It merely summarizes the concept that a purchaser must examine, judge, and test a product considered for purchase himself or herself.


          The modern trend in laws protecting consumers, however, has minimized the importance of this rule. Although the buyer is still required to make a reasonable inspection of goods upon purchase, increased responsibilities have been placed upon the seller, and the doctrine of caveat venditor (Latin for "let the seller beware") has become more prevalent. Generally, there is a legal presumption that a seller makes certain warranties unless the buyer and the seller agree otherwise. One such Warranty is the Implied Warranty of merchantability. If a person buys soap, for example, there is an implied warranty that it will clean; if a person buys skis, there is an implied warranty that they will be safe to use on the slopes.


          A seller who is in the business of regularly selling a particular type of goods has still greater responsibilities in dealing with an average customer. A person purchasing antiques from an antique dealer, or jewelry from a jeweler, is justified in his or her reliance on the expertise of the seller.
          If both the buyer and the seller are negotiating from equal bargaining positions, however, the doctrine of caveat emptor would apply.
          (Buyer beware legal definition of Buyer beware. Buyer beware synonyms by the Free Online Law Dictionary.)


          I think what we are starting to see more of now is caveat venditor, because more people are going to report scammers and their ilk to the FTC, Paypal or the police if they try to screw with them.

          And that's a two-edged sword for honest marketers because a lot of them are being tarred with the same brush as the bad guys.


          Martin
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          • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
            In all this arguing, what happened to one simple concept that could put an
            end to all this crap if people would just do it.

            Product doesn't live up to your expectations?

            ASK FOR A F*****G REFUND!

            How hard is that?

            If EVERYBODY who bought these overhyped, blown out of proportion, BS,
            worth sh*t products, asked for a refund...guess what?

            These snake oil salesman would all go out of business.

            For one thing, with a refund rate of 80%, PayPal would close their f*****g
            asses down.

            And if they WON'T refund you (I'm talking about the lowest of the lowest
            pond scums out there who really are just looking to rip you off) put in a
            dispute or, if that doesn't work, chargeback with your bank.

            Believe me, if everybody did this, we wouldn't even be having this
            conversation. But so many consumers are too damned lazy to even ask
            for a refund.

            I'm sorry, I'm NOT defending assholes who sell sh*t but for crying out loud, if
            we just say "enough is enough" and hit these scammers where they live,
            we wouldn't have the need for threads like this.

            My 2 cents plain for the day.
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            • Profile picture of the author Newbieee
              Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

              In all this arguing, what happened to one simple concept that could put an
              end to all this crap if people would just do it.

              Product doesn't live up to your expectations?

              ASK FOR A F*****G REFUND!

              How hard is that?

              If EVERYBODY who bought these overhyped, blown out of proportion, BS,
              worth sh*t products, asked for a refund...guess what?

              These snake oil salesman would all go out of business.

              For one thing, with a refund rate of 80%, PayPal would close their f*****g
              asses down.

              And if they WON'T refund you (I'm talking about the lowest of the lowest
              pond scums out there who really are just looking to rip you off) put in a
              dispute or, if that doesn't work, chargeback with your bank.

              Believe me, if everybody did this, we wouldn't even be having this
              conversation. But so many consumers are too damned lazy to even ask
              for a refund.

              I'm sorry, I'm NOT defending assholes who sell sh*t but for crying out loud, if
              we just say "enough is enough" and hit these scammers where they live,
              we wouldn't have the need for threads like this.

              My 2 cents plain for the day.
              i totally agree with you actually.

              i was thinking about this the very 1st time i see all the discussions and complaints about all this bulls**t products.

              if everyone hits refund then wouldnt that solve the problem. haha

              but unfortunately or fortunately [depending on how u see this] there are always 3 kinds of people in this world no matter who the hell u are or what you do, there will be people for you, against you and sitting on the fence.

              so there will be people against you [refunding], sitting on the fence[just holding on to it with no opinion] and loving the crap you sold them[needless to say without refund]

              haha
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            • Profile picture of the author sal64
              This should have been the last post for the thread.

              Well said!


              Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

              In all this arguing, what happened to one simple concept that could put an
              end to all this crap if people would just do it.

              Product doesn't live up to your expectations?

              ASK FOR A F*****G REFUND!

              How hard is that?

              If EVERYBODY who bought these overhyped, blown out of proportion, BS,
              worth sh*t products, asked for a refund...guess what?

              These snake oil salesman would all go out of business.

              For one thing, with a refund rate of 80%, PayPal would close their f*****g
              asses down.

              And if they WON'T refund you (I'm talking about the lowest of the lowest
              pond scums out there who really are just looking to rip you off) put in a
              dispute or, if that doesn't work, chargeback with your bank.

              Believe me, if everybody did this, we wouldn't even be having this
              conversation. But so many consumers are too damned lazy to even ask
              for a refund.

              I'm sorry, I'm NOT defending assholes who sell sh*t but for crying out loud, if
              we just say "enough is enough" and hit these scammers where they live,
              we wouldn't have the need for threads like this.

              My 2 cents plain for the day.
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              Internet Marketing: 20% Internet - 80% Marketing!
              You Won't See The Light Until You Open Your Eyes.
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              • Profile picture of the author Christian Chan
                Originally Posted by sal64 View Post

                This should have been the last post for the thread.

                Well said!
                He is just blabbering.
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          • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
            Originally Posted by Martin Luxton View Post

            All this stuff about 'caveat emptor' trying to shift the blame to the buyer is a load of bollocks based on a misconception of the legal meaning of the term.
            Not a misconception.

            When you buy a product and it doesn't do what you want, that is your problem, not the vendor's.

            When you buy a product and it doesn't do what was promised, that is the vendor's problem.

            Both doctrines apply to most sales. When you don't like or can't use the product, that falls under caveat emptor.
            Signature
            "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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    • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
      Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill View Post

      Damn, If I'd just bought your product I'd be farting in silk sheets.
      Nope. There's more to it than just throwing money out the window and downloading something. And until you understand that, please do not buy my products.
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      "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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  • Profile picture of the author sal64
    Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill View Post

    If someone offers you a system for 47 bucks that will make 10k, simply offer to pay from your first profits. If they refuse, they're scammers.

    Simple enough.
    Bwahahahahahahaha!

    ROFLMBFHIAO (Big Fat Hairy Italian Ass)

    Why do people get so uptight about WSO's?

    Seriously, what's the obsession?

    So do you go to your doctor and offer to pay him after you get better?

    Do you go to the drug store and offer to pay them only if your headache goes away.

    Think about it.

    As another poster correctly stated... given that 90% do SFA, why give the product away for free.

    I mean, seriously.
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    • Profile picture of the author sal64
      No I don't.

      I also don't promise what I can't deliver.

      You know it makes sense.



      PS: So what's so good about farting in silk sheets? Do they sound better or smell nicer?


      Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill View Post

      You mean you really don't take them by the hand and show them a simple step-by-step method that a high school dropout from Schenectady about to be evicted from her home used to make $87,468.23 in 48 hours?

      I'm not uptight about WSOs at all.

      In fact, I get a kick out of a lot of them.
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  • Profile picture of the author Newbieee
    to me it really depends on the situation.

    to generalize everything to the sellers fault or the buyers fault doesnt make sense.

    if the product is market in a way to deceive people [by claiming all the impossible or at least impossible for a newbie like saying "easy , no experience , no technical knowledge, hands free passive income like this... , imagine living the life you want, drive the car u want, live in ur dream house. and fire your boss... ] then its the sellers fault. because there is no such product out there that can make u a millionaire or anything close to that easily in a short period of time. most of the time ironically you end up depending on ur boss more. hahaha [advance pay check pls?]lol

    if its an online course that teaches you how to do certain things and it requires effort and time and some money and its stated upfront and the buyer buys into it but puts it one side and go on to buy another one then heck yes, its the buyers fault.

    Most of the time its the sellers fault, because i see sales pages, articles and videos that contradict what is in the members area.

    example :
    -they say its simple a 3 years old could do it, [like their 3 year old son] but they expect you to build a html site. not everyone is as technical as your 3 year old son you know. haha

    -they say its not this and that but in the members area they tell you to do the very method they say its not.

    -they say its not email marketing but you were there because of their email.

    -they say imagine this and that and show you graphics to stimulate your brain with nice cars, fancy houses and boats and private jets and fat pay checks then they are the same people who say [either in their new product launch or when you hit them a customer support ticket] that its not easy or that its ridiculous to think about such earnings. lol who in the 1st place put those in your head. guess what, is them. hahaha

    so it really depends on the situation.
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  • Profile picture of the author lisadan1
    Who are these WSO "Dream Merchants" and what is the issue they are creating?
    Are they trustworthy?
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  • Profile picture of the author wickersley
    Some brilliant posts here.... but as I noob.... I have to ask something.... if we are selling 'dreams' and not so much the end product.... and we all know this - Why do we buy WSO's... shouldn't we know better or a we getting blinded by our own BS or are we trying to live the dream?

    I really would like to know?
    Thanks
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    • Profile picture of the author Christian Chan
      Originally Posted by wickersley View Post

      Some brilliant posts here.... but as I noob.... I have to ask something.... if we are selling 'dreams' and not so much the end product.... and we all know this - Why do we buy WSO's... shouldn't we know better or a we getting blinded by our own BS or are we trying to live the dream?

      I really would like to know?
      Thanks
      If people keep on buying products after products, it is called Zeigarnik effect.
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  • Profile picture of the author DeborahDera
    No. They're not.

    If you bought a bowflex and never used it, you never had the chance of getting that dream body. The Bowflex commercial tells you to use the product to get results (and often offers methods for doing so).

    The same goes for any other product. You are given step-by-step instructions.

    YOU have to make effort aside from sliding your credit card. Otherwise, you're not scammed. You're just lazy.

    Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe View Post

    Before you blast away, hear me out...

    I was reading a thread in the War Room just now:

    http://www.warriorforum.com/my-ideas...herd-mind.html

    And came across this bit of wisdom:



    If people buy a dream and never really intend to pursue it, and they get to experience the high of buying, were they really scammed? Or did they get exactly what they really wanted?

    Fire up the popcorn machine, and let's have some fun...
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  • Profile picture of the author lisakynan
    Nope, do not see it as a scam at all. If people can't learn by what info is given free and want to invest in their IM education and not use that information that is their perogative! It would be like me taking back my $400 hairstraightner I bought 6 months ago and have only used twice! I had all intentions on using it every day when I purchased it! It is not the sellers fault I havent put it to good use, its still a perfectly good hair straightner. Unless it was a piece of junk I don't see them giving me a refund so same should go with products like this. IMO
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  • Profile picture of the author Rough Outline
    It really depends on each individual case and exaggeration used as well.

    Because there is a major difference between embellishment and lies.
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  • Profile picture of the author electroglyder
    Straight up !I f I applied common sense while purchasing a WSO ,I would never be able to buy one!.
    I find it hard to discern between hype and lie.
    I would love to see someone sell a real object without having to dress it up, totally out of proportion.
    That way there would be no let down,ergo, no problem.
    Keep it Clean,and simple. Stupid !
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    • Profile picture of the author AdwordsMogul
      Originally Posted by electroglyder View Post

      Straight up !I f I applied common sense while purchasing a WSO ,I would never be able to buy one!.
      I find it hard to discern between hype and lie.
      I would love to see someone sell a real object without having to dress it up, totally out of proportion.
      That way there would be no let down,ergo, no problem.
      Keep it Clean,and simple. Stupid !
      Well, you are welcome to be the first.
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      • Profile picture of the author Michael Mayo
        Originally Posted by electroglyder View Post

        Straight up !I f I applied common sense while purchasing a WSO ,I would never be able to buy one!.
        I find it hard to discern between hype and lie.
        I would love to see someone sell a real object without having to dress it up, totally out of proportion.
        That way there would be no let down,ergo, no problem.
        Keep it Clean,and simple. Stupid !
        Originally Posted by AdwordsMogul View Post

        Well, you are welcome to be the first.
        He would not be the first as I and many others have taken that road in the past.

        Some products speak for them self.


        Have a Great Day!
        Michael
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        • Profile picture of the author AdwordsMogul
          Originally Posted by Michael Mayo View Post

          He would not be the first as I and many others have taken that road in the past.

          Some products speak for them self.


          Have a Great Day!
          Michael
          Which products speak for themselves?
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    • Profile picture of the author Robert Puddy
      Originally Posted by electroglyder View Post

      Straight up !I f I applied common sense while purchasing a WSO ,I would never be able to buy one!.
      I find it hard to discern between hype and lie.
      I would love to see someone sell a real object without having to dress it up, totally out of proportion.
      That way there would be no let down,ergo, no problem.
      Keep it Clean,and simple. Stupid !
      If they did that you wouldnt buy it, because it wouldnt sound sexy enough for you...You'd probably go and buy the same old junk you usually buy, becuase its sounds sexier
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  • Profile picture of the author AdwordsMogul
    Let's face it...

    Most of the people who complain about products are those who take the least action. While it's fair to say that certain products are full of B.S. guess what? It's the B.S. that people praise the most.

    Look, to a certain degree you have to humour the dreamers because they spend the most money. They have the right to do so, and sellers have the right to sell these products to them.

    However, most people don't know whether a product is good or not. What they know is how convenient a "method" is, how much they enjoy reading it, and how well it fits into a belief system.

    You can create a product on autoblogging, and you'll have a huge crowd jumping on it. On the other hand, if you create a product on how to design complex marketing sequences most people will not interested - even though the latter product has a greater chance of making them money.

    Likewise, when it comes to mindset. With the wrong mindset there will hardly be a strategy that works for you. But then how popular are mindset products?

    How does somebody who doesn't take action know whether or not they should ask for a refund?
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  • Profile picture of the author WebPen
    Of course, I can see both sides of this....

    But you can really dig deep into your question (obviously- right now there are 183 replies!)

    Anyways, I'll answer your question with another question- Do clothing stores scam the 15 year old who buys stuff with the dream of looking good?

    Obviously America doesn't think so. If it did, people wouldn't spend ridiculous amounts of money on new clothes every year.

    So clothing stores can sell the dream of looking great to people all day long. But as soon as someone sells the dream of making a lot of money or losing weight fast, they get in trouble.

    Or look at drug companies- heck, the entire medical industry. It's a multi BILLION dollar industry, yet most doctors don't have a clue about how to prevent disease, just how to write a prescription and hope that the medicine works.

    So drug companies sell the dream of getting better just because they proved in 2 trials that the drug works....it doesnt matter that in 200 other trials, the drug did worse than a placebo.

    In reality, we're all getting scammed, buying a dream, etc.

    Now don't get me wrong- I'm not saying that it's okay to sell a crappy WSO and take people's hard-earned money. If you're gonna sell something, make it good quality.

    But the word "scam" is thrown around way too much these days. If a "scam" happens anytime that you sell something because you know that people will buy it, every business selling a dream is a scammer.
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    • Profile picture of the author AdwordsMogul
      Originally Posted by Justin Stowe View Post

      ...

      In reality, we're all getting scammed, buying a dream, etc.

      Now don't get me wrong- I'm not saying that it's okay to sell a crappy WSO and take people's hard-earned money. If you're gonna sell something, make it good quality.

      But the word "scam" is thrown around way too much these days. If a "scam" happens anytime that you sell something because you know that people will buy it, every business selling a dream is a scammer.
      Exactly, fast "food" is legal even though it harms the body, so are cigattes and alcohol.

      The biggest weird thing is the lack of responsibility people have for their action.

      Look, even the whole premise of "IM" is wrong in the first place (as far as building a sustainable business is concerned). That's because saying "I'm going to start a business. I will use this medium, and this medium alone, no matter what. " That's not smart.

      So, what do you expect when you search for the magic pill. If people are not ashamed to say "if I were to use my common sense..." in public, it just shows the state of our society.
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  • Profile picture of the author Ron Silva
    I would say no, they are not scammed. I the 'wso' or any seller of make money products puts out a decent enough product then it isn't the sellers fault that the method will gather cyber dust.

    Maybe every course/method/wso should come with a little self improvement disclaimer and say, "look, if you sit on your ass and do nothing you make nothing, do it goddamnit"

    Maybe not as harsh but you get the idea.

    Of course, if the wso/product is crap then that's another story.
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  • Profile picture of the author Faithblaster
    Many wso's have a money back guarantee, and I believe that most of them are great, in a lot of wso's I bought recently there was great information value and that was what I expected. They provide an idea, you provide an action.
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  • Profile picture of the author AlphaOmegaMarketing
    Very good topic. It is, in my opinion, just as you say. People buy dreams. It is, and has allways been, the same method with the lottery. People know the chances to win are 1: 14999938763465786856557 but they still buy it because while waiting for the person to anounce the numbers that will win the millions, an average person is allowed to dream about what he/she would do with the money if they win. The very reason of beeing able to imagine the outcome if it works make people pay.

    Still I do not agree with all the offers provided on this forum becuase there are people out there that really struggle, that really take theri last 10$ to buy a product just to read it and wish that it works.

    of course the technics work,( at least most of them) but what is claimed when they are sold ( every newbie without any knowledge can make 100$ a day starting tommorrow) are not true and are claimed with the bad intention to make desperate folks buy it.

    When I started IM i Was 22 years old and I bought ALOT OF PRODUCTS. still, to be honest, without those prdoucts I wouldn´t be where I am now. But out of all those 20-50 products i bought. only 2-5 where helpfull and tought me ways( that I myself neded to accomplish to my own working habit) to make me money online.

    I think this is still pretty normal according to our system (capitalism#) where ethics and morals are not counted and everyone is fighting and scaming everyone just to get another Dollar.

    I was thinking a lot to give out a free guide for people in this forum with all my basic technics just to help people from suffering and desperation, but while seeing everyone making thousands of $ selling the most basic informations (which can be found for free anyway) made me not do it because I would cut other peoples cashflow (who are also dependend on the desprate people to buy their products) I make enough for a living and i have my basic technics hat work for me since years so I am not gonna cut someones buisness esspecially if he/ she makes his living from it.

    Still guys, stop overdoing it and selling people dreams that can´t come true. I have nothing against offers claiming to make you live freely and independet if you REALLY follow them. But stop telling poor teenagers they can be millionairs in a day just by buying your course for F**''CK 5$

    Thanks for this thread
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  • Profile picture of the author Mark Jason
    I see steady grow of refund % on clickbank affiliate account which I use to promote IM products. Year ago was about 23%, now it's closing on 28%-30%.
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