Are WSO "Dream Merchants" Really Scamming People?

by 189 replies
254
Before you blast away, hear me out...

I was reading a thread in the War Room just now:

http://www.warriorforum.com/my-ideas...herd-mind.html

And came across this bit of wisdom:

If people buy a dream and never really intend to pursue it, and they get to experience the high of buying, were they really scammed? Or did they get exactly what they really wanted?

Fire up the popcorn machine, and let's have some fun...
#main internet marketing discussion forum #dream merchants #people #scamming #wso
  • My popcorn machine sits in the shed... never unpacked it
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    • .... just sitting on my ass dreaming of fresh popcorn. With butter, easy on the salt.
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    • I'll give you $10 for it lol
  • You asked for it!

    Get your Popcorn Here!



    Have a Great Day!
    Michael
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    • Do I have to get up and go get it?
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    • I used to have no sympathy for people that should have the mental capacity to make decisions with money, but made stupid decisions. Now, my old age has softened me a bit. Now I kinda think it goes both ways. Ultimately, the responsiblity in any situation is on the buyer. But that doesn't mean that scumbag sellers shouldn't feel a little guilty. Just like a crack dealer shouldn't put all the blame on the addict.

      But to your question, I don't think there are many buyers that actually KNOW upfront they aren't going to pursue it. They have good intentions.

      Getting excited about a purchase is not unique to MMO products. Several years back I bought a new flatscreen for my basement and couldn't wait for it to arrive. I've probably watched it for maybe 100 hours because I'd rather be upstairs at my house.

      Same thing here.
  • i have always told anyone who asked me for online business advice that i could teach virtually anyone to make a decent living online if they bring EFFORT.

    i think that statement is exactly right on about selling the dream. and while i do think people take advantage of the dreamer mentality, i am a big believer in personal responsibility.

    at some point you decide to either die fat and lazy with the workout machine in the barn, or you decide to go off you ass and do a few pushup and situps and live a better life.

    i learned a long time ago in business that its not my job, nor can i, make sure that other people succeed in their ventures...thats their job.
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    • I have to agree with you a point. And that is when I buy a product I have every attention of following through on what the author recommends. I follow thorough for a period of time, even make a sale or two.

      Then I check my email from someone that I've been following and low and behold a new product launch! I read it, watch the video, get enticed with the possibility and viola, my focus get skewed and the target that I've been aiming for is now pushed even further away.

      The way that I've since remedied this situation (because I've done this for years now) when I check my email no matter how enticing the subject line might be or whether it's from someone I know who is probably pitching a great product.

      I simply archive the message to be read '' I've completed the project I'm currently working on and making sure that it gets my undivided attention.
  • My vote is that probably 90%+ are scams, taking advantage of the dreamers. All you need to do is read the reviews of a few WSO's to see a distinct pattern. All are basically the same.
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    • But are they "taking advantage of the dreamers" or are they giving them what they really crave?

      I think that a lot of the serial buyers know in their heart of hearts that they are not really going to do anything, but buying another product makes them feel productive. And reading the new product while comparing it with the past products makes them feel smart.

      Productive and Smart are pretty entertaining.

      It's much the same with people who collect stacks of gourmet cookbooks, pore over them for hours at a time, and end up nuking a frozen dinner anyway.

      PS - Thanks to all who replied so far... (conserving my thanks button count so I don't stiff anybody )
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    • Agree wholeheartedly. I've purchased a few wordpress tools and have been happy with them but most everything in there is worthless.
  • After all of the popcorn replies what should I say hmmmmmm.

    Well back to the original context, I originally bought an IM product pursuing site flipping and thought that was my way, until I bought other WSOs that contradicted the original product. So I gave up and found a CB affiliate program and thought this is my way forward so I grabbed loads of affiliate marketing WSOs, then I messed up and looked at other options, n kept doing this until I became unemployed, and suddenly couldn't afford popcorn anymore, but realised that the basics of each of the above all held the key...

    Click! ...
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    • That's not necessarily a valid argument.

      Different methods may have different underlying principles. Yes, human nature is the same, but ways to get an emotional reaction are different for different people.

      When you buy a product, keep in mind that there is only one way to find out what really works - and that's by actual seeing an idea through (a.k.a taking action)
  • We all have good intentions, but most of us get side tracked before we ever put a method to use. There is always another shiny object that is going to make like and work much easier and make us more money. And there are many of us that will fall for it over and over again, because of that dream.

    If we would just get to work on the last one we bought, we would probably make a decent living. But the lure of the next shiny object is always there. Every day there are a dozen or more popping up in the WSO forum or Clickbank or other places.
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    • People love to buy... but no one likes being sold to.... That said... as long as the sales pitch is not to hyped.. and it sounds real... people will buy as long as the sales keep coming. The act of buying actually releases endorphins and makes you feel good. This is the same release known as a "runners high".

  • It's education that's the problem. Look at how the world is shaped today. We're taught to buy ourselves everything from since we're a child.

    We get sick. We buy our health through a PILL, and amazingly, the cold disappears. We want to get somewhere fast we buy a car, TRANSPORTATION. Before there were any airplanes we used to do 30 day voyages across the sea, now we BOUGHT our way into something better.

    THEN, if we're ugly, hey! who says you can't buy beauty? Get your fat sucked out of you, your nose crushed into place, your teeth realigned, your hair colored, all can be fixed! with a price. You walk in fat, you get your fat sucked out of you and you walk out slim!

    The amazing thing is some of the stuff works!

    We want to feel better we buy some nice chocolate, we don't want to prepare our own food, we go to the restaurant, we want to be entertained we get a TV, we don't want to wash our own clothes we buy a washing machine, etc. etc. etc.

    The thing is, we are TAUGHT to do these things. We're taught that when we have a problem we can just buy a fix for it!

    And it's nothing wrong with that... this WORKS to some extent...

    Unfortunately...
    NOT EVERYTHING WORKS THIS WAY!
    At least NOT YET!


    But even though not everything works this way, most people gotten into this MINDSET of simply thinking that if they're purchasing something they're on their way to getting better and having the problem fixed.

    It's CREATOR vs BENEFITOR! (is that a word?)

    And this is what's stopping most people from succeeding in this online marketing. The fact that they think that just purchasing something gets them closer to a goal.

    Well it doesn't!

    IF you actually USE what you're getting. USE THAT PRODUCT. This is INFORMATION we're buying here, or little fixes and help, it can be useful if used, but WE need to assemble the washing machine this time!

    Because in this business, even though we can use different parts of someone's idea, time or resources, we're the creators! We need to assemble everything together.

    So go ahead and assemble your business!
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    • I like the way Alan refers to himself as a "victim" of Bowflex's marketing and then admits he never used the damn thing.

      Of course, he really isn't saying that. But so many people do have that mentality. They are eternal "victims" - even if they don't follow the instructions.

      As long as your product will do what you say it will do, you are not scamming anyone. As far as I recall, Bowflex always said you had to use the thing for it to work.

      Same with most infoproducts. You have to put the info to use for it to be any good. if the buyer does not, that's not the seller's fault.
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  • Banned
    [DELETED]
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  • Why would one adult be responsible for another just because they are in sales? I agree completely - if a product works as it is purported to, then there is no scam, just customers who need to get a grip on reality.

    The day I have to be responsible for another adult who can't handle their money or make a discernment that they will not put a product to use that they choose to buy of their own free will -- is the day I start demanding babysitting payments.
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    • My sentiments enitrely.

      A good quote that I saw recently:

      "never mistake activity for acomplishment"

      I have have been guilty of being the 'perpetual student' in the past but am now focused on the end result. I'll willing buy into a 'dream' as long as the product delivers what it says it will deliver.Then it's up to me to implement the method.

      As long as the product that I have purchased is everything as described in the sales page, then it's my problem if I don't achieve the results.

      Achieving my dreams are my responsibility.
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    • I agree with Sal,

      As product creators it is our responsibility to bring the truth on how things work in our niche not just by giving concepts, but by doing things and then sharing others how we made things happen.

      Do this and you're not deceiving anybody.
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  • :long sigh: - well.. I think this gets into the ethical realm for most people..

    Unfortunately, that is the true.. selling the dream works, no doubt. But, to a certain extent, if the product really does deliver, and would help the buyer on their journey, then I personally feel like it's up to the buyer to take action..

    It's basically true with selling anything.. if you want total piece of mind, you'll have to avoid selling - it's basically a gamer of numbers..

    With that being said though, you can also do things to help buyers get started.. I've noticed it helps a lot when you do an introduction, and then give them small things to work on, so they can build up momentum.

    Anyways, that's about all I have to say - everything else gets too personal, and we all just care about ourselves anyways.

    EDIT: one other note.. if the seller is "selling the dream" and they don't live the dream.. then I think that's quite unethical, especially if it's a MMO product.. if they're living it, I think they have the right to.
  • If anybody ever went to a seminar/crash course/whatever teaching sales in real life... you know they always teach you to sell the dream. Not the product but the BIG DREAM!

    If it's a car - the dream of speeding faster then anyone else on the Autobahn...
    If it's investment - the dream of having a comfortable retirement...
    If it's life insurance - the dream that your loved ones will be taken care of when the truck hits you...
    If it's a bubble-jet printer - the dream of having beautifully printed fliers and whatnot...
    If it's time-share - the dream of vacationing in luxury places all around the world...

    The whole IM thing is just mimicking what already has been invented offline. Have you ever watched a TV commercial selling the simplest thing? Do it next time, instead of going for another beer or to the washroom

    It sounds like somebody reading (very fast) a long salesletter:
    - the problem
    - the solution
    - but wait, we'll double the offer
    - 30 days moneybackguarantee
    - call now and have your CC ready
    - only 17 left

    P.S. I am selling the "dream" that you will not make any more mistakes with your WP sites
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    • So true. I was in offline shop floor sales for over ten years, in a highly competitive industry. On my first day's training it was exactly about selling the dream.

      I know we had to use the word 'imagine' a lot when selling.
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  • I had started a similar thread a couple of months ago, and it was deleted. I am still wondering why it was deleted.

    Its a common practice "some" people do. Just after releasing their WSO, they will come to the main thread and say "hey i earned this much, hey i earned that much", followed by some astonishing remarks and congratulations by some people who have 0 posts ( their own accounts but differnet id).

    And all their signatures will be leading to that WSO.
  • When I've helped people with sales letters I've always told them, sell the dream, not the product. That's just good marketing. We all flux in and out between the life of our dreams and our real life. It's great when the two come together.

    I have no problem if the product is actually capable of delivering on the dream that was promised. If it doesn't in a real way... then it's a scam.

    Sell 'em on the dream and deliver a product to help them achieve that dream. Unfortunately, a lot of the biggest WSO vendors have got the "sell the dream" thing down quite well. It's the part about delivering on the dream that falls apart often.

    So John, I agree 100% with what you said. (I've forgotten exactly what you said, but yes--I agree).

    Forget the popcorn. I've got red & green peppers, sweet onions, garlic, and tomatoes with keilbasa over a plate of rice steaming until Tiger baseball comes on at 7. Yeah, those Tigers! --Mike
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  • Mike Carraway (winebuddy) used the metaphor of a magic shop at the Warrior Event. He said that people often buy magic tricks just to see how the trick is done.
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    • yes i agree with you mikemc selling the dream is what thier good at without it they wuldn't make a dime
  • Just turn on your TV!

    The dream is being SOLD to everyone all over the world everyday...

    Would McDonalds be as successful as they are today if it was advertised as the truth “Fat, Greasy Food with Absolutely no health benefits?” probably not!

    Who is responsible the Marketer or the Consumer?
  • I think it depends on the situation and the type of product you are selling... Here's a for instance..

    #1. If you are with your daughter @ the Amusement Park and you buy her magical seahorse that grow in a week [which we all know never survive and often times never even make it out the box!].. then you Sir just bought a dream. But a harmless dream that served it's purpose.

    #2. You are a used car salesman and a guy comes in who obviously has a life that necessitates a minivan and you convince and sell him a sports car that goes 200 mph...

    That's my take on it. Now the logistics of determining which is which is something else entirely...
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    • Not ok for who? The salesman or the guy that made an irresponsible choice?
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  • Lol - sometimes I am sure that the vendor has spent far more time on the sales page than the product itself!

    But does that make it a scam?

    If the vendor is 'selling the dream' knowing that their product will do little to provide that dream then yes I would call it a scam.

    BUT

    If the vendor knows that what they are selling will function in the way that they advertise that it will, when used according to instructions, and realistically provide the results that they advertise then it is not a scam.

    If in doubt only buy products that have a refund option!
  • << If people buy a dream and never really intend to pursue it, and they get to experience the high of buying, were they really scammed? >>

    Part of the dream usually includes the idea that you don't have to pursue it -it will just come to you effortlessly once you obtain the magical solution. Sometimes it's a thin line between a scam and a legitimate product with great copy. That's true of all advertising, though, not just WSOs.
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    • Is that really part of the dream or part of the sales copy -the way that it is associated with the dream it is usually positioned as a solution. You play by inference and you play by association - but you still play.

      The sales copy creates an expectation of a product. I think as has been said earlier in this thread, a lot of the time the two don't match.
  • It's extremely important to differentiate terms:

    Selling The Dream: Pitching the best potential end result a prospect could get by buying a product

    Scamming: An illegal, deceptive way of tricking a potential prospect into buying something under false pretenses

    They are nowhere near synonymous, although "Scamming" is a subset of "Selling The Dream", albeit in an illegal manner.

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  • A wise man I know says that as sellers, "we should sell people what they want, then give them what they need."
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    • Was that wise man your marriage councilor?
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    • Good ad copy - or an outrageous headline promise - can't convince you to buy anything. It leads you to create a dream vision in your own mind - and that dream appeals because it is YOUR vision of what YOU want to happen in YOUR life.

      I found long ago I could avoid buying many things if I just waited 24 hours to make the purchase. From clothing to furniture to IM products, often that dream in your mind becomes more realistic in a day's time.

      Very few wild dreams survive a cooling off time period.

      kay
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  • Of course they but the dream.

    The whole sales and marketing industry is based on selling a dream and the perceived benefits of a product.

    What was that stat again about buying on emotion?

    Whilst I hate hyped lies, there has be some element of Caveat Emptor when buying a WSO.

    In reality, almost everyone does it. Just look at people who line up at 2am just to be the first to own the latest Apple gadget. Is it that good? Or do they want to feel they belong to an exclusive group?

    On a side note...

    I used to do speaking gigs selling my real estate rehabbing program.

    There were multiple speakers at the event. Here's the rub...

    My system was all about making smaller, almost guaranteed results and building a lucrative portfolio.

    Another speaker was all about how to have your free house by becoming a developer and buying and developing large tracts of estates. She explained how in 2 years you can have a $1m home for free. Never mind that this sort of venture is beyond the realms of 98% of the population...

    She outsold me 9 : 1.

    So there's your answer.
  • People love buying (yet hate being sold to).

    For some, WSOs and info products can become just another thing one gets addicted to buying, especially with WSOs getting cheaper, and cheaper.

    It's like how I think "Ohhh, I have some extra cash. Let me buy a lip gloss." I don't need any more f'king lipgloss. Most people don't need any more info products.

    Generally the act of buying is the thrill, and that's the moment endorphins get released. The work one has to do after buying is not nearly as fun.

    If there's a money-back guarantee that the seller actually fulfills, you're never scammed.
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  • A couple years ago, a gentleman approached me in the parking lot of a drugstore and made me a proposal. He needed car repairs, but he had no cash, only a $50 gift card. So he suggested that he buy what I was going to buy on this gift card, and then I could give him $50 and he would give me both the gift card and my stuff. He could even show me the receipt which would display the balance of the gift card.

    Now, this is an old con. Basically, you steal a stack of "rechargeable" gift cards from a store (which do not work because they've not been activated), then buy another one. You use the one you bought to show the mark it's a completely full $50 gift card, then swap it for one of the empty ones to make the exchange.

    In this manner, you sell worthless stolen gift cards for $50 a pop to people who will not discover your trickery until you are long gone. Once you've got their money, you "top off" the gift card to $50 again so you can pluck the next chicken.

    I agreed to this scenario, not because I didn't know about the con, but because I knew about it. I'd heard about this trick, but never actually seen it performed. Basically, the grifter needs to somehow swap the cards right in front of me without my noticing. And if he can do it, I thought, if he can pull the change without me seeing... well, I'd pay $50 for that. So I picked up about $15 worth of stuff and handed it over to him to buy with the card.

    He did an absolutely incompetent job and may as well have jumped up and down shouting "look at me, I'm switching the cards." I guess most people are really stupid and don't see that, which wouldn't surprise me, but the guy had no skill whatsoever. So instead of giving him $50, I gave him $20 and told him to just keep the card.

    But let's imagine he'd done a good job and I'd given him $50. I got exactly what I wanted: I got to see him run the con. BUT:

    - That's still a con
    - He's still a cheat
    - It's still against the law

    It doesn't matter how happy the customer is. It matters how honest the vendor is. There are marketers out there who sell me stuff with false claims and promises they never keep. I'm still very happy with what I got from them and what I learned in their products, but that doesn't change the basic reality that they did not deliver.
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    • I personally never understood why someone would put forth all the time and effort into creating an ebook or opportunity , just so they can scam others. Being the victim of a scam or two in my day , I always wondered why some people would'nt put forth the same effort into creating something worthwhile.

      I simple hate the feeling of ordering a product only to find out I've been the victim of the bait and switch, or their something missing from the program or worse, it has nothing to do with the product you thought you
      were ordering.


      On the other hand when you find a great opportunity, I believe it's your
      responsibilty to atleast put forth the effort to try it out and see it through.

      If at first you don't succeed it doesn't mean it was a scam, It may just mean you need to try a little harder.

      I know some people who never even order the program, system or opportunity and they are saying its a scam when they never tried it out.


      I guess in the end they all sound great on paper.

      It's like the law of attraction , so many people think they can just wish, and hope and imagine things into existence.

      Sorry to say but nothing beats good ole fashion action speaks loader than words.
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  • Jay Abraham put it nicely in the introductory lecture of his
    26 week mentoring program when he classed business owners as
    being of 3 types:

    * those who run a business

    * those who learn a business

    * those who PLAY at the above

    The 3rd group, he said, are just as serious about what they
    do as those in the other 2 groups - but didn't get anything
    done by way of developing a business.

    The reason he brought it up was to encourage anyone in the
    third category to seriously re-consider their decision of
    being on the program, as it was an expensive way to get an
    'intellectual orgasm'

    But the deeper psychology lesson I learned was that for
    some buyers, the 'process' is the real thrill - NOT the
    'result'.

    And for these 'buyers', you're not selling information or
    education - you're selling ENTERTAINMENT!

    But what if you're making CLAIMS not borne out in your
    product or service? That's a SCAM - regardless of which
    of the 3 groups your buyer is.

    My 2 cents.

    All success
    Dr.Mani

    P.S. - Save some popcorn for me, please!
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  • I have been saying EXACTLY the same thing for years:Is that scamming? Quite frankly, I am not so sure, as it's in fact nothing but marketing 101: provide the market what it demands: in this case, a pipe dream. And by pipe dreams I refer to the typical "make thousands of dollars per month by clicking a few buttons" type of products.

    What I'm trying to say here is that buyers need to grow some responsibility for their own purchasing habits. You cannot act foolishly, endlessly buying crap that a blind monkey could spot from a mile away, and then cry that you've been scammed. I honestly believe that reckless buyers are as much to blame as preying vendors.

    And this is precisely what I was talking about... why should we blame the car salesman for trying to maximize his business? I would say that the reckless purchaser is to blame here: he was irresponsible with his money by voluntarily agreeing to buy something he didn't need.

    So how again has been scammed in any way? he wasn't.
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    • If the results promised in the sales letter have no chance
      of being achieved - no matter how hard the person tries -
      then it's a scam. Period.

      Making thousands of dollars per month by clicking a few
      buttons has no basis in reality - for most prospects.

      People who sell those type of BS products are scammers
      and should be wiped off the face of the WSO Forum,
      ClickBank and elsewhere.

      Without a doubt irresponsible buyers are a part of the
      problem. But the biggest part of the problem is unethical
      sellers who have no qualms about selling a BS pipe dream
      that can't be achieved no matter how hard someone tries.

      It reminds me of the illicit drugs industry - you've got the
      drugs, the drug taker and the drug seller.

      Some drug pushers sell drugs that are the real deal and
      'work' as intended - and it's what junkies want.

      Other drug pushers cut their drugs with filler such as talc
      to make more money for the same amount of drugs - even
      though some junkies lose their eyesight or have amputations
      over that kinda stuff.

      Without unethical sellers - of drugs, infoproducts or anything
      else - there would be no scams. But in the real world, there's
      no shortage of wankers with ethical bypasses who are prepared
      to step in and knowingly supply BS products.

      I choose to be part of the solution, not part of the problem.

      Dedicated to mutual success,

      Shaun
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  • The intention of buying and purchasing a product and idea is to attain one's dream. We have our goals and motives why we used money to purchase these products and ideas for our own sake, especially the fulfilment of our dream. But to some people, the intentions are always there especially before and during the purchase of products and ideas. This is to really make their dreams come true.
    But the problem here is on the person themselves. Yes, the intention is there when the product was purchased but on how to do it and what to do with it, is the start of the problem. The most challenging part is on how people would be able to attain and reached their goal after the purchase of the product. It is NOT an instant money result that when you buy some product and idea on how to earn will automatically give you the idea that you will instantly earn that money.
  • Yes this IS Sales!

    EVERYTHING is sold in this way i.e selling the dream.

    Or focusing on benefits not features, sell the sizzle not the steak.

    All you have to do is look at some adverts for beer and why is it that everyone is smiling, not a beer belly in sight and getting on well?

    In truth we all know what happens when you get a lot of drunk people together.

    To focus on the thread topic though I think that people do the first part right - they believe it is possible to "live the dream".

    The second part is trial and error, and not stopping until you get there.

    Unfortunately a lot of people fall at the wayside when they find out most of the time obtaining the dream is "hard work!"

    Let me put it this way:

    What are the odds of winning the lottery?

    You probably have more chance of being successful at ANYTHING else you choose to do in life.

    How many people play the lottery though?

    Chris
  • Snake oil is Snake oil in any fashion...!
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    • Hi Chri5123,

      This fallacy comes up in every one of these discussions.

      'Because beer is sold in this way, then it must be OK for me to sell things this way too.'

      But what if that beer commercial is unethical or morally wrong?

      A few posts back Shaun claimed that he successfully sells things but never in that way, hence your statement is false - 'EVERYTHING' is not sold in that way, unless Shaun is lying.

      Hi AnonymousAffiliate,

      It's not actually a personal attack, it's actually a legitimate and logical assertion.

      Plus, your response avoids answering the question.

      You are stating that these figures are for your results. Kurt was asking about a promise you have made regarding others gaining these results.
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  • I think that quote sums up the position succinctly John

    However, Internet Marketers play their part in this dreamworld fantasy. How many times have we all read copy that says something along the lines of "automatic cash income" or "copy me and earn $10,000 working just 4 hours a week."

    People want to believe it and the copy plays on this desire.

    I can honestly say that I do have numerous sites that now generate income, on auto-pilot, with very little maintenance from myself. HOWEVER, I had to put the work in first to get them to that stage.

    I think of IM as pushing a large round boulder up and over the top of a mountain. You bust a gut getting it to the top but, once you've reached the summit, the boulder rolls freely down the other side, with little or no effort.
  • Mmmmmmm, I love the smell of irony just before bedtime.

    So what's worse?

    Someone selling a cr@p WSO or an affiliate marketer who posts reviews on products he has never used or owned?

    @ Big Mike: you posted the following...

    Every time someone buys up some crappy WSO for seven bucks that doesn't come close to delivering, they're casting a vote. They're sending a message to the seller that the market demands these kinds of worthless products.

    Not sure about this, because you often cannot tell if something is good or bad. However, the customer should never be afraid of leaving a negative review if warranted.
  • Here's the problem I have with this comment, it puts all buyers in the same "group" and that is all buyers are dreamers.

    Let's say this is 99% true...What about the 1% that take really take action and apply the "dream strategies" and fail, not because of what they did, but because of what they were told to do? Where do they factor into the discussion?
  • Banned
    [DELETED]
  • Gyms do the same thing. Do you know how many gym memberships go unused every year? Me either, but I bet it's a lot.
  • What an interesting thread. I definatly believe that there are so many people online who are dreaming about making money and want something for nothing.

    It can be motivating to read a success story of someone and as long an you put the effort in and actually impliment what the WSO tells you to do then potentially your dream may even come true.

    If you are one of these people who is happy to read a book and dream away then I guess you should be satisfied by the high of buying and reading the WSO. It is your choice to implement it or not and if you choose not to then that is not the sellers problem.

    Just my 2c
  • The person meeting the potential buyer at the Zero Moment of Truth is the affiliate(s). If you hang around this place long enough, or the IM community in general, you will start to notice that you get emails from multiple affiliates about the SAME product from time to time.

    This has a tremendous affect on the buying decision. After enough emails about the same product, you decide "eh, I guess I need to go over to the WF and check this out". Then you might as well just get out your wallet. The sad part is that the affiliates that met you at the Zero Moment of Truth probably don't even know what it is they are promoting...

    In many cases it isn't about the sales thread at all, it is about the affiliate emails. Often, by the time the buyer gets to the thread they have already made their decision...
  • i am one who would definitely lean towards the responsibility being on the buyer rather than the seller.

    lets face it, until people step up their level of personal responsibility, there is always going to be a seller or a fast food chain willing to sell them an easy, probably over-hyped, probably over not good for them product.

    i dont want anyone to regulate McDonalds into selling less hamburgers just because the guy behind me in line eats there everyday and is not taking responsibility for his body. same with wso products. often times people dont realize what it takes to make these products work as advertised. sure the products are over hyped, but that doesn't mean some of us didnt realize that and plan accordingly.

    with all the ftc and other regulations stepping in to "protect people", its my belief that the only thing they are truly accomplishing is a dumbing down of the public in general because it no longer necessary to be smart and think for yourself. this idea that the government will make sure no one can sell me an opportunity that might not work for me is a very scary idea.

    Bernie madoff was only allowed to create a huge ponzi scheme because investors believed someone else was protecting them and making sure things were on the up and up. take away the sec and all those investors would have each checked that situation out more and it likely never would have grown to the level it did.

    now dont get me wrong, i am not for the wild wild west, but we need to be very careful about not putting the responsibility on the individuals.

    lets be clear, most of us with 10+ years experience could make most of the wso products work if we had to. some would work better, some very little. but in truth, i have bought very few that i honestly felt i could not make work to some level.
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    • Good lord, I wholeheartedly agree! There's too much daddy-like regulation, and too little self-accountability!
  • Interesting (philosophical?) discussion here.

    After a little consideration I'm thinking that selling 'dreams' is another way of saying you're selling 'possibilities'.

    Selling possibilities is not wrong. Misrepresenting the possibilities you're selling is where it starts to get scammy.

    Misrepresentation

    Let's say you're selling a lottery ticket. You could do it two ways.
    1. Buy this lottery ticket, you could get rich: You're selling a 1 in 10 million chance at wealth. If you sell it as such, and the buyer knows that it's a long shot, nobody's being scammed.
    2. Discover the Easy, Simple Method I Used to Make $50 Million Overnight: Technically this is still possible. But we're in scam territory now.
    Why is the second scammy? It's still the same low probability, but selling a 'method' implies a higher chance of success. I can't really say how much, but certainly higher than 1 in 10 million. Because you're misrepresenting what you're selling, it becomes a scam.

    The Scam O' Meter

    So let's say you sell a WSO and say that anyone can make money with your method. You're selling a 100% Possibility dream, assuming all buyers can and do follow through.

    If the Reality of buyers who apply your method is:
    100% Probability of Success = Definitely not a scam
    1-99% Probability of Success = Marketing. The lower you go farther you get from 'marketing' and the closer you get to 'deceptive marketing' and eventually 'scam'.
    0% Probability of Success = Outright scam

    So [Probability Being 'Sold'] - [Actual Chances] = [Scam O Meter Rating]

    How high on the scam-o-meter do you have to go before it stops being marketing and starts being a scam?

    That's a gray area, but the level of probability misrepresentation you're willing to accept is what will determine your integrity as a marketer.
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    • Great reply to the original post. What I've found is that especially, now in these economic times people are looking for Easy, Fast, Quick, Instant, ways to earn money. Possibly their situations have cause them to be in such dire straights, which leads to irrational expectations, which leads to illusional results.

      My recommendation is before you buy anything especially online, do your due diligence (Google is at your disposal) and check out the person, the product that you are considering before spending your money.

      At least get some assure from other people who've had experience with the product/service. Secondly, after you've done your research and actually have bought the product or service now it is up to you to follow thorough with it.

      Get off the merry go round and take Action.

      What's a four letter word for 'action'? It's called
  • There are too many variables here!

    If:

    The product is bad i.e Does not do what it claims no matter how well you adopt the method/teaching then it is a con.

    If the product is good and the sales page is bad - it will not sell at least until it has built up momentum.

    If the product is good and the sales page is good - all is well.

    The problem is that with ALL sales the job is to sell what IS possible.

    Back to the lottery example:

    Watch an advert for the lottery - it doesn't show old ladies eating their meals on wheels checking their numbers and getting upset because they have spent their pensions on the lottery tickets.

    It doesn't show young mums with 8 kids screaming in a council flat checking their numbers and praying for their numbers to come up!

    It shows:

    Fast cars, houses, boats and living the DREAM - it shows what IS possible.

    Same with any fitness product:

    It never shows people that are 18 stone working out and sweating after 5 mins and then sticking the product under the stairs never to be seen again!

    It shows:

    Young attractive models that do not break a sweat when they work out and look stunning!

    Which leads me to conclude:

    Most things are NOT scams - people DO win the lottery, people DO get fit and people DO make a lot of money online.

    No-one can help you with it though.

    You can buy tools to help you win the lottery, get fit and make money online but they are ONLY tools.

    To my knowledge I have never seen a product, book or course that will wake you in the morning and tell you what to say and do to be rich, thin or win the lottery.

    Don't con yourself!

    That is the answer!

    Chris Jones
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  • how and who can i complain to?

    i paid good money for a WSO and it was completely not delivered in any way?

    i did ask for refund but the vendor refused saying he had done too much work

    he has sent me about 10 ebooks but most of the content is nothing new

    any advice?
  • This kind of points to a deeper issue we have to face as marketers.

    Should we push people's emotional hot buttons and become master copywriters, essentially appealing to their irrational impulse to buy, or do we just tell them how it is - here's the product, the rest is up to you?

    Hmmm
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    • There is definitely a fine line between enticing (but accurate/true) sales copy and blatant misrepresentation and hype, but without good (and ethical) sales copy you would find yourself hard-pressed to sell anything online.

      There's nothing wrong with ethical marketing, if done properly. You see marketing all around you in the physical world, and I'm pretty sure many of us have been subjected to the late-night infomercials that border very closely on hype, yet stay within the guidelines of the FTC and other marketing authorities.

      Without some "window dressing" in the form of marketing that appeals to the masses, multinational companies like Apple, Sony and Motorola would not have been able to sell their products on such a massive scale.

      This fine line is definitely crossed sometimes with WSOs, but that's wherethe mods and members (with their ability to self-police) can help. Of course, no system is ever foolproof, but I think this comes fairly close.
  • Interesting Argument - "To buy or not to buy"

    Dream chasers make the economy go 'round. Big dreams - little dreams - they all fuel the buying cycle of whatever product/service is being offered. That includes everything from beloved IM products to the stuff you see on late night infomercials.

    People will forever buy the solution to their problems.

    What people choose to do with the product after purchasing is ultimately up to them. You can't blame the merchant for sharing their wares. We're all in it to make a buck. We all have mouths to feed.

    You'll find health clubs packed with New Year's resolutions and guilty consciences exploding in January. But a month later, you see attendance diving like lemmings off a cliff.

    Can't blame the health club owner for people being lazy. :rolleyes:
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    • I buy some things for what I consider "entertainment purposes only."

      I even have some "friends" who fall into that category. lol

      Anyway, I think the majority of those are not so much scammed but more so misinformed on what they are buying. They are convinced they need a ferrari when they really could do just fine with a little scooter.

      I would have no clue how to handle or drive a Ferrari. For that reason alone I would never get one - or want one if it was being just handed over to me for free.

      Heck, I don't even want a scooter. Too loud, and while I was turned on by them years ago - like a vintage vespa type thing - I wouldn't want it today. I love how they look, but it is not a sensible purchase knowing myself.

      I really think I could do some serious damage with an electric bicycle! But even recently I realized it would be purely for entertainment and not feasible for regular transport to and from downtown (about 7 miles). Only because we get a LOT of fog here and in the end a car would be a million times more effective and safer to stick with.

      I actually have some WSO's that are products - not MMO plans - which I still have yet to use. Was I scammed because I felt compelled for some reason to purchase? Maybe

      No. Not really .

      There is actually a sales ploy or tactic - I heard about it recently and it makes a LOT of sense. And something that I myself realized I used to do.

      I would buy some clothes or things I didn't really need - because they were on sale. Not just any sale but they were like 90 percent off or something silly like that that how could I say no? I felt like I was saving a TON of money, yet did I really need what I was getting? Some were clothes that had the tags still on them. I held onto them for 10 years on some of them - and never wore them. Or they were items I never wound up using.

      Not sure if it has been the massive amount of times I have had to move in the last few years or with age comes wisdom but I finally realized it was time to let a lot of things go. I had dreams with those things. That is all it was. And I did get the rush from spending and thinking I was saving so much.

      Good will has some really nice things now. And in the end it did feel good that those things may help someone who really does need them.

      We have a lot of folks calling scam when it is not. But we also do have a good amount of charlatans (they don't even know they are) with some of the offers in the WSO.

      In the end, people need to take a step back, know what they really want. Or accept what they are buying is purely for entertainment purposes only.
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  • I can't find a WSO thread you've posted in where you say "where is the product I paid for". Why haven't you posted in the thread about what you think is a scam?

    Has that WSO been deleted - or have you failed to give a "review" about your experience? Just curious as that's the first thing you should do if you think you've been "had".

    kay
  • I will go through and read the responses in a bit, but I wanted to give my off-the-cuff response first.

    No, as a WSO seller, I would say I am NOT a "dream merchant", BUT I will happily sell to dreamers if they want to buy my product.

    Here's where I see the distinction: My products may appeal to some dreamers, and they can certainly continue dreaming after buying my products, BUT at the same time my products are actionable and effective.

    In other words, everything is there for people to make use of. If they are stuck in "dream mode" then their purchase will only collect virtual dust. HOWEVER, if they are in "action mode" they can put it to use right away. Also, if they switch from "dream mode" to "action mode" then my product will be right there waiting for them.

    So, to sum it up, I only think it's "dream stealing" if the product itself has nothing actionable in it; otherwise, it's on the buyer and not the seller (apart from a few exceptions).

    All the best,
    Michael

    p.s. My apologies if I'm just repeating what others have said, but I wanted to give a gut response and didn't want any other comments to color my response.
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    • You people are freaking amazing!

      I posted this expecting it to go like most of the threads I start - get a few replies and sink into the lower pages.

      Instead, we're on the third page of mostly thoughtful replies, including a bunch of people we don't see come out to play very often.

      Again, thanks to all, and keep it coming...
  • First of all in order for a dream to be a dream it has to be born from within. I dreamed of owning my own business before I even learned to tie my shoes. It's a flame I have held and nurtured ever since. As a result of this there isn't any type of product or service failure that I purchase that could even put a dent into my dreams.

    So if you're someone who generates your dreams from reading the copy of others then you're completely clueless to what a dream even is. Because there isn't anything hell can unleash at it that can take it away from you if it was genuine.

    Microwavable dreams are extremely perishable with shelf lives counted in minutes not entire lifetimes.
  • I got a lot of my dreams from reading copy and books personally. I dream of freedom mostly, starting off with financial freedom. Until someone "pointed out" to me I could have anything even remotely close to financial freedom I was stuck in the negative factory worker's mentality. Sometimes copy and books are the spark of dreams of a better life. I think WSOs (if they are useful) help people achieve their (financial)dreams - even if only in a small way (as facilitators).
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    • Could this debate be, at least in part, 'generational'?

      I recently read an AMAZING issue of Ben Settle's ezine, where he
      pointed out some advantages 'Gen-X' ers have over preceding Boomers,
      or the subsequent 'Gen Y'ers.

      A quote:

      and he goes on to highlight 4 major distinctions, before ending with:

      Think there's something to it as it pertains to "buying without
      thinking" - and then "blaming without taking responsibility" that's
      going around this discussion?

      All success
      Dr.Mani
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  • I suppose to many folks who are new to it, and don't understand how it works, anything can be construed as a scam
  • sorry, i laughed out loud when i read that. Are people with $100 to $200 K sitting around doing nothing really this guy's target audience? With that kind of money you can buy a lot of (small) offline businesses & with a marketing budget of $5000 per month - well - you're laughing (especially if you also have the online skills to develop a presence online for that small business).
  • To address the original question: "Are WSO "Dream Merchants" Really Scamming People?"

    I don't think that all WSO sellers try to scam people.
    Some definitely do, maybe most, but not all.

    One problem, is that WSO writers tend to exaggerate things.
    They convince you (for example) that you will start earning $100 per day, STARTING TODAY, with only 2 hours of work.

    Stuff like this is misleading and plays with people's emotions.

    The WSO writer in most cases, definitely knows that it will take more work than that, to get money flowing.

    (Even though, theoretically, it may be possible to accomplish in the stated time-frame)


    Of course the buyer should use his logic to determine if that is realistic or not, but it's hard to distrust what the WSO seller says, because they 'decorate' their sales pages so well to be convincing, which is also supported by reviews from other Warriors.


    So the next problem of course is, the buyer not taking action.
    Why don't they take action in most cases?

    It's because they were led to believe, that they can start making $100/day TODAY, with just 2 hours of work.

    Once they read the entire WSO, they realize that the task isn't nearly as easy as explained, they give up before starting.

    It would take 1-2 weeks of hard work to achieve the said results.
    So they get discouraged, and never take action.


    People come to the WSO forums looking for the "Magic Button" that will make them rich with as little work as possible.

    Thus, the problem is on both sides:

    1) Buyers have unrealistic expectations of wanting to get rich with too little work.

    2) Sellers take advantage of this weakness, and promise to give buyers their "Dream", when they are just selling any other normal business plan.
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  • Dreams are sold every 20 minutes on Television, if those aren't breaking any of the FTC rules how much different are some of the titles and pitches in the wso section?

    Granted, I can do without the over the top stuff that just seems to good to really be true.

    The rest of this thread just makes my head ache! lol
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  • they are scamming only those who are looking to be scammed
  • An interesting point raised on here as well...

    Sure a WSO promise can be real and actionable. But is it legal?

    Personally, I prefer not to have my site pulled down due to some black-hat tactic which I used innocently. In this case, full disclosure from the vendor is warranted.

    Many thanks.

    Sal
  • Yep. For days I have a WSO open in a tab where they sell a method that promises 2 million visitors and $xx,xxx revenue - all for $5 only!

    I am so tempted to offer $100 hard cash if they demonstrate on one of my sites that the thing is working, LOL :p
    Heck, I'd even offer $1,000 if they reproduce (repeat) the numbers from the sales page with my site.
  • Bunkum, so I would be a scammer because I don't want to give my product out for free to the whole world then sit back and hope that one day everyone comes back to pay? Seriously.

    Patrick, of course you raise some good points on crooked dealings but with respect I've really not see a WSO that would get you into any trouble let alone that much. Maybe I'm just good at avoiding them by reading the description and understanding balance of probabilities. I was referring to a decent WSO not a crooked one put up by a crooked thief and scammer (which I've never seen - can someone point me to one via PM please?). My example and the way I think of WSOs stands. As an investor I am only looking to get my money back (in either cash or time savings) and some information from a WSO.

    I do feel sorry for anyone who buys one without reading it or being of sound enough mind to accept responsibility for their actions. These are nothing but "micro-tips" being sold to help another fellow marketer. This whole "government taking you down" is referring to a WSO that I have never seen and buyers who I don't believe exist. All the buyers I see and speak to buy them with all eyes wide open and certainly wouldn't be doing anything crooked or bad and if they do then good luck to them. If someone hints at doing something un-cool (let alone illegal!) I'd ignore it or ask for my money back if it's vastly different to what they promised it would be.

    For the overwhelming part the bad under prepared WSOs stand out like it's highlighted, the rest are fine and are simply tips to use. I think some people are taking this far too seriously. As far as I can see and tell this is just people handing out tips to others for a few bucks. The freedom headlines are also true in most cases as well - unless of course you consider freedom to be defined as having millions (which it's not). If you were to do everything the writer says and take it to the Nth degree and really immerse yourself you should be able to make enough money to either add substantially to your bottom line or even use the income from it to break free from "the wage". Sure, some won't but that doesn't mean they don't hold some bits of useful information or that they are not happy with the value of the information.

    In any case I would spend $10 to save $12 every time let alone make my $10 back and more. My investment analogy is a good one and that's how I and almost everyone I speak to looks at it. No one runs off and does illegal things without know what they are doing - at least not from something they learned in a WSO.
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    • You're not telling me your actually going to come back in 30 days and pay me are you? Even the briefest examination of human character will tell you that is going to lead to only one thing...a lot of waiting.

      Net 30, mmm. I would have to prove that the buyer got value to demand the money via a legal process of debt collection? Not sure that would work too well on the internet for information and how to products. It would probably work ok for a plumber or local service because you can go and bang on their door but how do I chase someone half a world away who may not even be who they say they are after 30 days?

      I would rather offer a guarantee. "...listen, you pay me and I'll give you my product as a fair exchange and I'll give you back your money within 30 days if you can prove what I say is not true, will not work as claimed...etc". I think a guarantee works better than "please promise to pay me if you like it".

      I'm the only one at risk with a "pay me later if you like it" model online. I risk losing income if you don't want to pay for something you've already consumed.

      Personally I think the real issue is overstated sales copy. Headlines can be swept aside, I scroll so fast past all the testimonials it's a blur but the core promise must be clear and leave room for over delivery. Normal good business practices apply here as they do anywhere and have done for thousands of years. Quality + Value = Good commerce. The market will sort you out soon enough.
    • Hi WSOHelp (post #132),

      With respect, you haven't been around here that long, have you? The statement I have quoted above is clearly incorrect.

      Hi Thomas (Belknap - post#124),

      I think we need to remember that some peoples' only experiences of the internet are -

      a) a handful of clickbank sales pages that appear to show (to the untrained eye) videos and proof of exactly this, along with videos of real Ferraris etc

      b) Mainstream media stories of people in their basements making websites that these people know of, which sell for billions (youtube, facebook etc)

      c) stories of the dotcom boom

      Most people commenting here on the one side of the argument (not you Thomas, you offered a balanced opinion of which I only quoted a part) are forgetting that due to life experiences or internet marketing exposure, they have developed certain critical thinking skills in terms of spotting BS and scams.

      There are people out there who have lived relatively sheltered lives and in civilised societies (I'm not too sure if ours qualifies as that currently in the West) those people are (or should be) typically protected from inflated, misleading and nefarious claims within marketing material.

      Just because someone is lacking in critical thinking skills does not mean that they 'deserve what they get' - it does not give anyone a license to mislead them in order to extract money from them.

      There is a reason for this and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to work it out, particularly if you consider what is happening in our societies currently.

      Generalising somewhat - those people who lack those thinking skills often do so because they don't need those skills very often, because they choose to live in a kind of bubble, the opposite kind of bubble to the one that someone who calls themselves 'Gordon Gecko' and adopts the mantra 'greed is good' lives in.

      The first person's bubble is more often than not the one where it's perfectly acceptable to do things purely out of the goodness of their heart for someone else - because they can and because they enjoy it and it makes them feel good.

      If we allow the Gordon Geckos of the world to take everything from those people by stealth, what kind of world is left?
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  • Dude, if the good Lord didn't want me to jump off that cliff, He wouldn't have put it there.
  • I've seen the quote about selling them what they want and giving them what they need. But you have to be careful.

    If what's really needed to be successful is a lot of money or work or time, don't claim otherwise (no money, work or time needed) in the sales copy. That's a scam.

    Mark
  • For every poster here who says it is up to the buyers to be responsible with their purchase, how did you come into such conclusion? Where's the seller's accountability part?

    And if that's how the world works, you will not have FTC coming after scammers. And I have a feeling that they will come near us very soon.
  • :rolleyes:

    That's a ridiculous and false assertion. Considering a large percentage of WSO buyers make either no effort or a halfhearted effort to actually DO what's in a WSO they buy, why should the WSO merchant take a financial loss?! Why is a person or company a "scammer" if they don't want to give away their product for free?

    If someone offers you a system for 47 bucks that the merchant says can make you 10k, it is YOUR responsibility to look at the reviews of the product, the details of the product, the terms of purchase, and the merchant's history to decide whether or not to buy, not anyone else's.

    Personal responsibility is a MUST for anyone who wants to succeed in business, and it applies directly to deciding when to buy or when not to buy a WSO or any other product.
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    • :rolleyes:

      Obviously, Ken, but you missed the point and avoided mine and other's question:

      Again, why should a WSO merchant give away their product for free or be labeled a scammer?

      When you apply for college, do you tell them "Yeah, I'll pay you guys tuition only after I'm done and IF I get a high-paying job and I want to. Wait, you're not ok with that? You're scammers!"

      When you buy a car do you tell the dealership "You say your cars can last up to 100,000 miles? Great, I'll only pay you if and when I drive the car to 100,000 miles. That's not OK? What?! You must be scammers!"

      ...I think you see the point. If you only want to get worthwhile things for free, then stick to the very limited number of things in this world that will allow you to do that.

      The rest of us understand that personal responsibility means looking at a product's details, terms of purchase, warranty or return period, and the merchant's history and reputation and making our own decisions as adults and businesspeople.
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  • there's a great little post by seth godin on 'short term capitalism' which may be relevant to this discussion too (and of course, the imp distinction - not all WSO's or warrior's have a 'short term' mentality)

    "There are a few reasons why one might not care what happens in the long run:

    You don't intend to be around
    You're going to make so much money in the short run it doesn't matter
    You figure you won't get caught

    Short-term marketing involves using deception to make a quick sale, or using aggressive promises to get a quick hit

    ...

    The internet has opened two doors. First, it's easier than ever to do the short-term thing, anonymously if you choose, with a big splash, internet ads, eBay scams and more. On the other hand, since there's a revolution going on, it's also easier than ever to build something that matters, something that lasts.

    The thing to remember about the short-term is that we'll almost certainly be around when the long-term shows up." http://sethgodin.typepad.com/seths_b...apitalism.html
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  • Here's a free system that will make you a couple hundred. Use that one, then come back with $47.

    "But, but, but... I don't want to use that system and make a couple hundred! I want to use this one and make $10k!"

    Then that will be $47.

    My product, my rules. Don't like it? Piss off. Go buy products that suck. It's no skin off my nose if you prefer failure.
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    • I love people using the Macdonald's coffee case to support their argument!


      Customer = stupid tire kicker after easy money

      Seller = ethical company just filling a demand



      The facts of the case are that Macdonald's were selling scalding hot coffee that they knew was dangerous but they didn't care.

      The Actual Facts about the Mcdonalds' Coffee Case


      And here's the kicker


      Martin
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    • Nope. There's more to it than just throwing money out the window and downloading something. And until you understand that, please do not buy my products.
  • Bwahahahahahahaha!

    ROFLMBFHIAO (Big Fat Hairy Italian Ass)

    Why do people get so uptight about WSO's?

    Seriously, what's the obsession?

    So do you go to your doctor and offer to pay him after you get better?

    Do you go to the drug store and offer to pay them only if your headache goes away.

    Think about it.

    As another poster correctly stated... given that 90% do SFA, why give the product away for free.

    I mean, seriously.
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    • No I don't.

      I also don't promise what I can't deliver.

      You know it makes sense.



      PS: So what's so good about farting in silk sheets? Do they sound better or smell nicer?


  • to me it really depends on the situation.

    to generalize everything to the sellers fault or the buyers fault doesnt make sense.

    if the product is market in a way to deceive people [by claiming all the impossible or at least impossible for a newbie like saying "easy , no experience , no technical knowledge, hands free passive income like this... , imagine living the life you want, drive the car u want, live in ur dream house. and fire your boss... ] then its the sellers fault. because there is no such product out there that can make u a millionaire or anything close to that easily in a short period of time. most of the time ironically you end up depending on ur boss more. hahaha [advance pay check pls?]lol

    if its an online course that teaches you how to do certain things and it requires effort and time and some money and its stated upfront and the buyer buys into it but puts it one side and go on to buy another one then heck yes, its the buyers fault.

    Most of the time its the sellers fault, because i see sales pages, articles and videos that contradict what is in the members area.

    example :
    -they say its simple a 3 years old could do it, [like their 3 year old son] but they expect you to build a html site. not everyone is as technical as your 3 year old son you know. haha

    -they say its not this and that but in the members area they tell you to do the very method they say its not.

    -they say its not email marketing but you were there because of their email.

    -they say imagine this and that and show you graphics to stimulate your brain with nice cars, fancy houses and boats and private jets and fat pay checks then they are the same people who say [either in their new product launch or when you hit them a customer support ticket] that its not easy or that its ridiculous to think about such earnings. lol who in the 1st place put those in your head. guess what, is them. hahaha

    so it really depends on the situation.
  • Who are these WSO "Dream Merchants" and what is the issue they are creating?
    Are they trustworthy?
  • Some brilliant posts here.... but as I noob.... I have to ask something.... if we are selling 'dreams' and not so much the end product.... and we all know this - Why do we buy WSO's... shouldn't we know better or a we getting blinded by our own BS or are we trying to live the dream?

    I really would like to know?
    Thanks
    • [1] reply
    • If people keep on buying products after products, it is called Zeigarnik effect.
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  • No. They're not.

    If you bought a bowflex and never used it, you never had the chance of getting that dream body. The Bowflex commercial tells you to use the product to get results (and often offers methods for doing so).

    The same goes for any other product. You are given step-by-step instructions.

    YOU have to make effort aside from sliding your credit card. Otherwise, you're not scammed. You're just lazy.

  • Nope, do not see it as a scam at all. If people can't learn by what info is given free and want to invest in their IM education and not use that information that is their perogative! It would be like me taking back my $400 hairstraightner I bought 6 months ago and have only used twice! I had all intentions on using it every day when I purchased it! It is not the sellers fault I havent put it to good use, its still a perfectly good hair straightner. Unless it was a piece of junk I don't see them giving me a refund so same should go with products like this. IMO
    • [ 1 ] Thanks
  • It really depends on each individual case and exaggeration used as well.

    Because there is a major difference between embellishment and lies.
  • Straight up !I f I applied common sense while purchasing a WSO ,I would never be able to buy one!.
    I find it hard to discern between hype and lie.
    I would love to see someone sell a real object without having to dress it up, totally out of proportion.
    That way there would be no let down,ergo, no problem.
    Keep it Clean,and simple. Stupid !
    • [2] replies
    • Well, you are welcome to be the first.
      • [1] reply
    • If they did that you wouldnt buy it, because it wouldnt sound sexy enough for you...You'd probably go and buy the same old junk you usually buy, becuase its sounds sexier
  • Let's face it...

    Most of the people who complain about products are those who take the least action. While it's fair to say that certain products are full of B.S. guess what? It's the B.S. that people praise the most.

    Look, to a certain degree you have to humour the dreamers because they spend the most money. They have the right to do so, and sellers have the right to sell these products to them.

    However, most people don't know whether a product is good or not. What they know is how convenient a "method" is, how much they enjoy reading it, and how well it fits into a belief system.

    You can create a product on autoblogging, and you'll have a huge crowd jumping on it. On the other hand, if you create a product on how to design complex marketing sequences most people will not interested - even though the latter product has a greater chance of making them money.

    Likewise, when it comes to mindset. With the wrong mindset there will hardly be a strategy that works for you. But then how popular are mindset products?

    How does somebody who doesn't take action know whether or not they should ask for a refund?
  • Of course, I can see both sides of this....

    But you can really dig deep into your question (obviously- right now there are 183 replies!)

    Anyways, I'll answer your question with another question- Do clothing stores scam the 15 year old who buys stuff with the dream of looking good?

    Obviously America doesn't think so. If it did, people wouldn't spend ridiculous amounts of money on new clothes every year.

    So clothing stores can sell the dream of looking great to people all day long. But as soon as someone sells the dream of making a lot of money or losing weight fast, they get in trouble.

    Or look at drug companies- heck, the entire medical industry. It's a multi BILLION dollar industry, yet most doctors don't have a clue about how to prevent disease, just how to write a prescription and hope that the medicine works.

    So drug companies sell the dream of getting better just because they proved in 2 trials that the drug works....it doesnt matter that in 200 other trials, the drug did worse than a placebo.

    In reality, we're all getting scammed, buying a dream, etc.

    Now don't get me wrong- I'm not saying that it's okay to sell a crappy WSO and take people's hard-earned money. If you're gonna sell something, make it good quality.

    But the word "scam" is thrown around way too much these days. If a "scam" happens anytime that you sell something because you know that people will buy it, every business selling a dream is a scammer.
    • [1] reply
    • Exactly, fast "food" is legal even though it harms the body, so are cigattes and alcohol.

      The biggest weird thing is the lack of responsibility people have for their action.

      Look, even the whole premise of "IM" is wrong in the first place (as far as building a sustainable business is concerned). That's because saying "I'm going to start a business. I will use this medium, and this medium alone, no matter what. " That's not smart.

      So, what do you expect when you search for the magic pill. If people are not ashamed to say "if I were to use my common sense..." in public, it just shows the state of our society.
  • I would say no, they are not scammed. I the 'wso' or any seller of make money products puts out a decent enough product then it isn't the sellers fault that the method will gather cyber dust.

    Maybe every course/method/wso should come with a little self improvement disclaimer and say, "look, if you sit on your ass and do nothing you make nothing, do it goddamnit"

    Maybe not as harsh but you get the idea.

    Of course, if the wso/product is crap then that's another story.
  • Many wso's have a money back guarantee, and I believe that most of them are great, in a lot of wso's I bought recently there was great information value and that was what I expected. They provide an idea, you provide an action.
  • Very good topic. It is, in my opinion, just as you say. People buy dreams. It is, and has allways been, the same method with the lottery. People know the chances to win are 1: 14999938763465786856557 but they still buy it because while waiting for the person to anounce the numbers that will win the millions, an average person is allowed to dream about what he/she would do with the money if they win. The very reason of beeing able to imagine the outcome if it works make people pay.

    Still I do not agree with all the offers provided on this forum becuase there are people out there that really struggle, that really take theri last 10$ to buy a product just to read it and wish that it works.

    of course the technics work,( at least most of them) but what is claimed when they are sold ( every newbie without any knowledge can make 100$ a day starting tommorrow) are not true and are claimed with the bad intention to make desperate folks buy it.

    When I started IM i Was 22 years old and I bought ALOT OF PRODUCTS. still, to be honest, without those prdoucts I wouldn´t be where I am now. But out of all those 20-50 products i bought. only 2-5 where helpfull and tought me ways( that I myself neded to accomplish to my own working habit) to make me money online.

    I think this is still pretty normal according to our system (capitalism#) where ethics and morals are not counted and everyone is fighting and scaming everyone just to get another Dollar.

    I was thinking a lot to give out a free guide for people in this forum with all my basic technics just to help people from suffering and desperation, but while seeing everyone making thousands of $ selling the most basic informations (which can be found for free anyway) made me not do it because I would cut other peoples cashflow (who are also dependend on the desprate people to buy their products) I make enough for a living and i have my basic technics hat work for me since years so I am not gonna cut someones buisness esspecially if he/ she makes his living from it.

    Still guys, stop overdoing it and selling people dreams that can´t come true. I have nothing against offers claiming to make you live freely and independet if you REALLY follow them. But stop telling poor teenagers they can be millionairs in a day just by buying your course for F**''CK 5$

    Thanks for this thread
  • I see steady grow of refund % on clickbank affiliate account which I use to promote IM products. Year ago was about 23%, now it's closing on 28%-30%.
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