Can you sell (or transfer) a WSO to another person?

82 replies
I hope a MOD will read this question, but I am also interested in what other warriors think about this.

Are we allowed to sell or transfer a WSO to another person? In what ways are we allowed to do this?

I am asking this, because I have seen people on Flippa advertising their sites like this, saying that the successful buyer will get THEIR WSO on the Warrior Forum in the buyers' full possession.

How would you go about doing this if this was legal? Simply change the payment buttons? Closing your own WSO thread and let the new owner start their own WSO page? I guess this could be okay if you do it like this?

I hope someone could make it a bit clearer for us.

Thanks,

Bertus
#person #sell #transfer #wso
  • Profile picture of the author Brad Gosse
    If you own the WSO it's your intellectual property, you can sell it to whomever you like.

    The offer itself can have new payment buttons but you will need to keep up support on their behalf.

    I would keep the existing thread and announce the changeover.

    Technically the WSO must be your product which it was until you sold it. Not sure how changing ownership mid way changes this.
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    • Profile picture of the author Tony Marriott
      You should ask the question directly to the support desk and someone will get you a definitive answer.
      I am NOT a mod.....

      In theory you can sell the product that makes up your WSO and any external website it is on.

      The WSO thread is different matter. You can only sell products that belong to you, so you could not sell the product once you have sold it to someone else.
      You could not sell your thread as that would equate to selling your account and that's not allowed.

      You could start a new thread with your own account and I guess you could "copy" any testimonials/reviews (of the product not the person) and put then in your sales page. Might be more ethical to say they came from the original sales thread.

      or I wait be corrected by a mod.......
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  • Profile picture of the author Mary Wilhite
    The problem with this is it doesn't seem ethical.

    How can the new owner of the WSO bump it without being the account owner?

    This means that the sale will also include the account itself, which will mean that
    it's already a case of false/pretentious identity.
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  • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
    Banned
    Originally Posted by bertuseng View Post

    Are we allowed to sell or transfer a WSO to another person?
    My interpretation of the WSO rules is that the answer is probably "no".

    "All WSO's Must Be Something You Created."

    Seems pretty unambiguous?

    Let me put it this way, Bertus: if the answer to your question turns out to be "yes", then I think the rules could stand a little re-drafting.
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    • Profile picture of the author Tony Marriott
      Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

      My interpretation of the WSO rules is that the answer is probably "no".

      "All WSO's Must Be Something You Created."

      Seems pretty unambiguous?

      Let me put it this way, Bertus: if the answer to your question turns out to be "yes", then I think the rules could stand a little re-drafting.
      Good point Alexa,

      my earlier quote of "owned" was incorrect. It is in fact "created by".

      That logically makes selling a product you bought as a WSO a no-no.

      So I modify my earlier statement to:

      Yes you can sell the "product" that makes up your WSO but unlikely that you can then sell it in the WSO section of the forum and even less likely that the original WSO thread can be used to sell it in any manner.
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  • Profile picture of the author rosetrees
    Alexa beat me to it. Quote from rule 2 of the WSO thread:
    If you yourself did not create the product do not post it here
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  • Profile picture of the author WillR
    No way is this allowed. You should report anyone you find doing this.

    You can't post or run WSO's on another persons behalf. It is clearly against the rules.
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  • Profile picture of the author bagpuss0001
    The actual contents are the property of the owner and they can sell and trade as they see fit. The WSO itself is a different matter I think. I am not sure you can sell or trade a post on a forum. I certainly wouldnt buy one. I would however buy a website that contains the sales page, squeeze page etc of a successful WSO, but I would expect to have to promote it as a WSO on here in a new post using my existing account.

    I am sure there is a way to re-direct clicks on your WSO posting to the buyer one.
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    • Profile picture of the author WillR
      Originally Posted by bagpuss0001 View Post

      I would however buy a website that contains the sales page, squeeze page etc of a successful WSO, but I would expect to have to promote it as a WSO on here in a new post using my existing account.
      Once again this is NOT allowed. The WSO rules specifically state a WSO must be a product YOU created yourself. If you purchased the product from someone else then clearly it is NOT a product you created and NOT fit to be sold in the WSO forum.
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      • Profile picture of the author gotti3636
        Originally Posted by WillR View Post

        Once again this is NOT allowed. The WSO rules specifically state a WSO must be a product YOU created yourself. If you purchased the product from someone else then clearly it is NOT a product you created and NOT fit to be sold in the WSO forum.
        How about all of the people who outsource their product creation? I am sure that most of the people selling software/plugins as WSOs did not create them themselves and yet they are selling them as a WSO.
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        • Profile picture of the author Rus Sells
          Your not taking the spirit of the rule. By created it means that the product must be something that "YOU" thought of and either made yourself or you could have paid to have it made.

          If you paid to have it made your still the legal owner and creator and thus can use it as a WSO.

          If we took your perspective on the rule it would mean that book authors would only be able to say they authored the original version and that's all they created, the edited version and all the copies being sold they have no rights too claim ownership of.

          Originally Posted by gotti3636 View Post

          How about all of the people who outsource their product creation? I am sure that most of the people selling software/plugins as WSOs did not create them themselves.
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      • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
        Banned
        Originally Posted by WillR View Post

        Once again this is NOT allowed. The WSO rules specifically state a WSO must be a product YOU created yourself. If you purchased the product from someone else then clearly it is NOT a product you created and NOT fit to be sold in the WSO forum.
        Actually, the real interpretation that I have heard from Paul Myers is that it has to be something you created or paid someone to create exclusively for you.

        I can outsource my product creation and still run a WSO. But to buy an existing product that has been previously run as a WSO ... well, you didn't exactly outsource that exclusively for your own use, so it may not fall under this umbrella. A mod I'm sure can clarify this.

        At any rate, the answer about transferring the actual WSO page ... would be no. The new owner would have to run his own ad under his own account.

        As an example, I sold NicheBloggingTreasures to someone and have over 35 ad pages for it. I do not bump them. I gave the new owner the bbcode to be used from his own account to list sites in Complete Sites for Sale.
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        • Profile picture of the author Tina Golden
          I've seen it posted before, as long as you own the exclusive rights to the product, you certainly can run a WSO. You absolutely are allowed to purchase a product from someone and then post a WSO for it, as long as it was only sold to you.

          Where I would see an issue is that it sounds like the OP is saying the person would take over the existing thread and I would think that would cause problems.

          Rus, by the way, there is no rule about running a WSO on the behalf of others and in fact, I've seen it done. Sometimes it's a JV and other times not, so it is allowed. The poster takes full responsibility for the thread and is the one who's reputation would take the beating if something isnt right.
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          • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
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            Originally Posted by Tina Golden View Post

            Rus, by the way, there is no rule about running a WSO on the behalf of others and in fact, I've seen it done. Sometimes it's a JV and other times not, so it is allowed. The poster takes full responsibility for the thread and is the one who's reputation would take the beating if something isnt right.
            Well, then perhaps I was wrong about not bumping my threads for the new owner of the site I sold. I did a few times until he settled in, but I wanted him to take over promotion anyway.
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          • Profile picture of the author mikemcmillan
            Originally Posted by Tina Golden View Post

            ...Rus, by the way, there is no rule about running a WSO on the behalf of others and in fact, I've seen it done. Sometimes it's a JV and other times not, so it is allowed. The poster takes full responsibility for the thread and is the one who's reputation would take the beating if something isnt right.
            Tina, you are a great and respected Warrior and I always respect your opinions because they are backed by common sense and good intentions.

            However, I do disagree with the part of your statement quoted above. There are a handful of people who do this with regularity. I have complained about this in the past. I always go back to the thing about a WSO product must be something you created yourself.

            Some individuals with good sized lists of WSO buyers will run a WSO for another person and claim to be partners with them when in fact they never contributed a bit to the creation of the product.

            I don't make the rules and I may not be interpreting them correctly, but as far as I'm concerned this practice is dishonest and an attempt to side-step the rules as I understand them.

            The same people who do this use all manner of other unsavory tactics here because they believe the rules apply to everyone EXCEPT them. I'm sure they are in the club with those who park in handicapped spaces when they have no permit--again, because they think they are so very, very special.

            Again, I'm not a mod and I don't make or interpret rules in any official manner, but here is a novel thought. If you want to run a WSO, create a value laden product yourself. Test it out and make sure it lives up to the claims you make in your ad, and then-and only then, offer it up as a WSO.

            With all of the imperfections, heart-ache and the thousand natural shocks that flesh is heir to, alas we are not perfect. Let's not pretend that we are. Let's not pretend to be someone here we are not. Let's not pretend to have created a product ourselves if we did not. Let's not pretend to be partners in creating a product if we did not.

            If a WSO is run under your name, I'm assuming you created it or you paid to have it created (less desirable in the case of ebooks than the former option).

            If we allow Warriors who did not create a product to run a WSO for it under their name, we might as well let every Amazon affiliate in the country come in and run WSOs promoting anything they want as an affiliate. It's exactly the same thing. I don't think we want that thing here.

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            • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
              Banned
              Originally Posted by mikemcmillan View Post

              If we allow Warriors who did not create a product to run a WSO for it under their name, we might as well let every Amazon affiliate in the country come in and run WSOs promoting anything they want as an affiliate. It's exactly the same thing. I don't think we want that thing here.

              Dictum sapienti sat est! --Mike
              I think Paul cleared up that pretty well.

              Folks who've said this was a violation because the buyer didn't create the product are right. And this sounds like selling an account here. It happens, but we're pretty ruthless about just nuking everything associated with it when we find out. Along with anything provably associated with either party in the future. Selling one's own website and intellectual property is none of our business. Selling a thread or account on this forum is.
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              • Profile picture of the author mikemcmillan
                Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

                I think Paul cleared up that pretty well.
                Just a burr under my butt I had to get out. --Mike
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                • Profile picture of the author LegitIncomes
                  Here's how I look at it right now (which may be WRONG), just giving my thoughts..so don't take it as advice.

                  1. You should NOT be allowed to sell a WSO thread, or the rights to it.

                  2. The product itself. Let's look at it from the buyers perspective. The buyer can go out and have someone create a brand new product for them (outsource the creation), or they could buy an existing product.

                  In both cases the buyer is exchanging money for a product of their own.
                  As the buyer, they are the owner and have sole and exclusive rights to the product. It's their product. Whether they outsource the creation, or buy an existing product, this holds true.

                  So, in my opinion, as long as the product owner was to create a brand new WSO thread, I don't see why it would be a problem for them to run the existing product they purchased the sole rights to as a WSO.

                  Again, they simply traded money for a product. This is the same thing people do all the time when outsourcing the creation of a product.

                  Again, all my opinion here, nothing more.
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                  • Profile picture of the author Kay King
                    they could buy an existing product.
                    You almost got it - but not quite.

                    What is allowed is very clear in Paul's post - and it doesn't include selling a product you bought rights to. Only products you personally created or hired someone to create specifically for you.

                    When opinion conflicts with rules - rules win every time:p
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                    • Profile picture of the author LegitIncomes
                      Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

                      You almost got it - but not quite.

                      What is allowed is very clear in Paul's post - and it doesn't include selling a product you bought rights to. Only products you personally created or hired someone to create specifically for you.

                      When opinion conflicts with rules - rules win every time:p
                      Okay, I've read Paul's post.

                      Here's what I'm wondering: There is virtually no difference on the buyers end, they are exchanging money for a product, whether it's outsourced or purchasing an existing product.

                      Buying an existing product could even be called nothing more than really fast outsourcing, imo. Instead of a week, or a month, to get your finished product, you can have it that same day.

                      Why such a harsh tone on buying an existing product, but not on outsourcing? Doesn't make sense to me.

                      I mean, if I'm thinking "Gee, I wish I had a product that did abc and xyz" and I want to make that happen I can outsource it, or buy the rights to an existing product that fits what I'm looking for. Either way, in the end it's 100% my product, and no one has the rights to it except me.
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                      • Profile picture of the author gotti3636
                        Originally Posted by LegitIncomes View Post

                        Okay, I've read Paul's post.

                        Here's what I'm wondering: There is virtually no difference on the buyers end, they are exchanging money for a product, whether it's outsourced or purchasing an existing product.

                        Buying an existing product could even be called nothing more than really fast outsourcing, imo. Instead of a week, or a month, to get your finished product, you can have it that same day.

                        Why such a harsh tone on buying an existing product, but not on outsourcing? Doesn't make sense to me.

                        I mean, if I'm thinking "Gee, I wish I had a product that did abc and xyz" and I want to make that happen I can outsource it, or buy the rights to an existing product that fits what I'm looking for. Either way, in the end it's 100% my product, and no one has the rights to it except me.
                        I agree. From the buyer's standpoint, in the end it is exactly the same thing.

                        I think the main problem here though is that we don't want exact duplicate products being sold in the WSO forum (even though most WSOs seem to be re-writes of others anyway!) and we don't want people starting to sell their actual forum accounts along with the website/WSO (I don't think this has happened yet, but the OP is suggesting that it has).
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                    • Profile picture of the author Johnny Slater
                      Kay, there are several products that have been allowed to be run as WSO's when someone bought the entire product from the original creator.

                      A while back PHP Andy's membership script was sold as PLR then he sold the original script and all rights to another Warrior. That Warrior has ran multiple WSO's on that script after he made some changes to it.

                      Recently, a partnership of I believe two warriors bought out a product that had been out for a few years and ran a WSO with it.

                      If you have exclusive rights then it is considered your product, just as if you had paid someone to create it for you. There is a grey area, but it is not unheard of and has happened several more times than just the two cases I mentioned above.


                      Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

                      You almost got it - but not quite.

                      What is allowed is very clear in Paul's post - and it doesn't include selling a product you bought rights to. Only products you personally created or hired someone to create specifically for you.

                      When opinion conflicts with rules - rules win every time:p
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                      • Profile picture of the author LegitIncomes
                        Originally Posted by Johnny Slater View Post

                        Kay, there are several products that have been allowed to be run as WSO's when someone bought the entire product from the original creator.

                        A while back PHP Andy's membership script was sold as PLR then he sold the original script and all rights to another Warrior. That Warrior has ran multiple WSO's on that script after he made some changes to it.

                        Recently, a partnership of I believe two warriors bought out a product that had been out for a few years and ran a WSO with it.

                        If you have exclusive rights then it is considered your product, just as if you had paid someone to create it for you. There is a grey area, but it is not unheard of and has happened several more times than just the two cases I mentioned above.
                        This makes sense to me, seems logical....but goes against what Paul is saying.
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                        • Profile picture of the author Tom B
                          Banned
                          Originally Posted by LegitIncomes View Post

                          This makes sense to me, seems logical....but goes against what Paul is saying.

                          Well, I purchased a wso where this did happen. You can't sell your Wafo account or run a wso on their behalf once you sell it.
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                          • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                            Legit,
                            There is virtually no difference on the buyers end, they are exchanging money for a product, whether it's outsourced or purchasing an existing product.
                            There's a big difference on the WSO-customer's end, though. This stuff gets sold here under another name, but it's the same product. Creates huge confusion on the part of people who've paid for the same bloody thing previously.

                            That's just one problem. You can extrapolate the others from it.

                            Rod,
                            I'm assuming we should do this via the "report post" button instead of contacting you directly via PM? Just wanted to make sure I'm doing this correctly.
                            In this case, contact me directly. I want to use the Very Big Hammer on these situations.

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                            You are beyond the help of mortal man. Or even Roger!


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                            • Profile picture of the author LegitIncomes
                              Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                              Legit,There's a big difference on the WSO-customer's end, though. This stuff gets sold here under another name, but it's the same product. Creates huge confusion on the part of people who've paid for the same bloody thing previously.

                              That's just one problem. You can extrapolate the others from it.

                              Rod,In this case, contact me directly. I want to use the Very Big Hammer on these situations.

                              Cueball,You are beyond the help of mortal man. Or even Roger!


                              Paul

                              What about the well known "gurus" who have done this? Such as mentioned in post #41. Was this not known by the mods, or was it known and allowed?

                              What kind of "huge confusion" does this create?
                              I mean, if someone purchases a product and the product has a new owner, they simply contact the new owner for support if they need help.

                              If they need a refund, they contact the person they paid, whether that be the previous or current owner.

                              If they purchase the same product twice because two different warriors were selling it (previous and new owner), well, they should probably read the sales page more carefully.

                              I just don't understand the "huge confusion" that could be caused....examples?
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        • Profile picture of the author Kay King
          Are we allowed to sell or transfer a WSO to another person? In what ways are we allowed to do this?
          NO - if you are "selling" a WSO you are "selling" a thread in this forum and you can't do that. You can't change a WSO from one forum name to another.

          You can sell the rights to the product you ran a WSO on - but the other person can't sell it here as they didn't create the product or hire it created.

          There are people profiting with WSO affiliate links; there are those offering to help you think up and write and market a WSO for a fee; there are people willing to use their forum name to run someone else's WSO as a "JV".

          Apparently all the above is acceptable because it's happening - but so far you can't start WSOs and then sell them off. That would really be the last straw for that section.

          kay

          Edit:

          saying that the successful buyer will get THEIR WSO on the Warrior Forum in the buyers' full possession.
          This is the third time I've heard about this recently but I haven't seen one of the ads. I'd suggest next time you see that on Flippa you send the link to the help desk here.
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        • Profile picture of the author WillR
          Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

          Actually, the real interpretation that I have heard from Paul Myers is that it has to be something you created or paid someone to create exclusively for you.
          Suzanne,

          I believe you are right there.

          My bad!
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          • Profile picture of the author ExRat
            Hi,

            Welcome to the main WSO discussion forum. :rolleyes:

            Seem to be rather a lot recently, such as the classic -

            'I joined recently and immediately put up a WSO about how to make money on the internet, but no one is buying it. Where can I get some help learning how to make money on the internet so that I can make money on the internet selling my 'how to make money on the internet' product to all of the suckers in the WSO forum, please?
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            • Profile picture of the author Tom B
              Banned
              Originally Posted by ExRat View Post

              Hi,

              Welcome to the main WSO discussion forum. :rolleyes:

              Seem to be rather a lot recently, such as the classic -

              'I joined recently and immediately put up a WSO about how to make money on the internet, but no one is buying it. Where can I get some help learning how to make money on the internet so that I can make money on the internet selling my 'how to make money on the internet' product to all of the suckers in the WSO forum, please?
              You never helped me!
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          • Profile picture of the author Kay King
            If you own the WSO it's your intellectual property, you can sell it to whomever you like.
            I do not believe that to be true.

            The PRODUCT you sell with a WSO is your intellectual property - but the WSO thread is not your property.

            You can sell the rights to your product - but you can't give that person the WSO rights as it is in your name and (I hope) not transferable.

            kay
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  • Profile picture of the author Rus Sells
    YES! Lets allow the buying and selling of WSO's so we can further the buyers faith in WSO product creators shall we?

    This is only going to lead people to suspect that WSO's may not be created by the persons selling them, providing support, and a whole host of issues I can't think of right now.

    What if the new owner has ZERO experience with the methods or whatever content is in the WSO?

    This would be a serious breach of ethics and good faith on behalf of the Warrior forum towards the buyers market if this were allowed to happen as a matter of acceptable policy.
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  • Profile picture of the author Rus Sells
    @Tina,

    I know that's acceptable, but buying another persons WSO is what I was talking about.

    Its enough that we are having in depth conversations about selling the dream, etc. etc.

    I'm just pointing out the possible consequences that will ensue if it were allowed to be done.

    Buyers will then always wonder, suspect, and doubt that the seller actually knows anything about the method or product if other people are allowed to buy some one another persons WSO. Buyers going to question now, is this seller the actual product creator or some one who bought out the product creator. Its just a brew for disaster!

    anywhoo
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    • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Rus Sells View Post

      Buyers will then always wonder, suspect, and doubt that the seller actually knows anything about the method or product if other people are allowed to buy some one another persons WSO. Buyers going to question now, is this seller the actual product creator or some one who bought out the product creator. Its just a brew for disaster!

      anywhoo
      This is actually being done all the time. There have been many listings on Flippa where a seller has created a product, run it as a WSO to get some revenue going and then sold it on Flippa, and I'm certain it is then promoted again by the new owner as a WSO. I've never seen the Flippa ads that include the actual WSO listing though.
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      • Profile picture of the author Kay King
        Suzanne -

        I can see creating a product, selling it as a WSO to have earnings to show - and then selling the site/salespage/product to someone new.

        I cannot see including the WSO thread as that violates the rules as I understand them.

        A site being sold is worth much more if the included product is an "earner" and a WSO is a fast way to show profits. I think if you are running a WSO and sell the product off so you no longer have the rights - the WSO should be immediately closed. Just my take on it.

        kay
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  • Flipping a product, whether a WSO or a general marketing product, is very common.

    Once flipped, the product becomes the sole property of its new owner. Essentially, the new owner has paid someone to create a product for them and to test the market for it (which is a very usual marketing tactic).

    If a WSO is flipped, the old WSO thread should be immediately closed.

    That doesn't prevent the new exclusive owner redeveloping the product if they want, and opening up a new WSO thread for their exclusive product.

    That would be my 'common sense' interpretation of the rules - and indeed I've seen many WSOs operate like that over the past couple of years (particularly software WSOs).

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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Bertus,
      I am asking this, because I have seen people on Flippa advertising their sites like this, saying that the successful buyer will get THEIR WSO on the Warrior Forum in the buyers' full possession.
      If I find proof that someone is making that kind of offer, I'll nuke the WSO and the account supporting it. Not even a second thought, once I'm sure it's not a faked offer to set someone else up.

      Folks who've said this was a violation because the buyer didn't create the product are right. And this sounds like selling an account here. It happens, but we're pretty ruthless about just nuking everything associated with it when we find out. Along with anything provably associated with either party in the future. Selling one's own website and intellectual property is none of our business. Selling a thread or account on this forum is.

      There are a very small handful of people who are in the "nuke on sight" category here. This is one thing that will get one added to that group.


      Paul
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      • Profile picture of the author bertuseng
        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

        Bertus,If I find proof that someone is making that kind of offer, I'll nuke the WSO and the account supporting it. Not even a second thought, once I'm sure it's not a faked offer to set someone else up.

        Folks who've said this was a violation because the buyer didn't create the product are right. And this sounds like selling an account here. It happens, but we're pretty ruthless about just nuking everything associated with it when we find out. Along with anything provably associated with either party in the future. Selling one's own website and intellectual property is none of our business. Selling a thread or account on this forum is.

        There are a very small handful of people who are in the "nuke on sight" category here. This is one thing that will get one added to that group.


        Paul
        Thanks for clearing that up for us, Paul. I don't want to point fingers to specific people so I won't name them, but I have seen this as a real flippa ad and was wondering about it. Glad to hear that it is in fact not allowed as this will surely do some damage to the credibility of the WSO section.
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  • Profile picture of the author Chri5123
    I thought this may be the case when I saw this thread, also it just does not make sense in terms of:

    If I make a WSO with MY knowledge, proof of earnings etc... the moment I SELL that to someone else it becomes a lie - unless they can prove that they can do the same thing.

    Goes without saying that you cannot sell someone else's property like ANY Warrior forum thread.

    All the best,

    Chris Jones
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  • Profile picture of the author thekaver
    but it a owner of the wso gives full PLR rights to 1 particular person couldnt they then re-write it as your own?
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  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
    Bertus,
    this will surely do some damage to the credibility of the WSO section.
    Not nearly as much as it will do to the seller if they unload the thing and we then find out about it. Their "customers" are likely to be ... rather angry ... about buying a dead pig in a tattered poke.

    If anyone sees one of these, please point me to it. I will alert Flippa (or whatever site it's on) that it's a sale likely to result in a very unhappy customer.

    A few people asked about buying products and rewriting them. For the most part, the answer is simple enough: Don't bother. If it's ever been sold here and we find out, we'll probably nuke it, even if you bought the exclusive right to sell it in the future. If it's been sold anywhere with resale or PLR rights, that's pretty much a death sentence on the offer.

    As far as how much you'd have to change it... More than most people are ever likely to do. We have some sharp-eyed folks here, and they buy a lot of what's out there in the market.

    Create your own products, or pay someone to create them exclusively for you.


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    • Profile picture of the author Rod Cortez
      .....If anyone sees one of these, please point me to it. I will alert Flippa (or whatever site it's on) that it's a sale likely to result in a very unhappy customer.
      Paul,

      I'm assuming we should do this via the "report post" button instead of contacting you directly via PM? Just wanted to make sure I'm doing this correctly.

      RoD
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      • Profile picture of the author Michael Mayo
        Originally Posted by Rod Cortez View Post

        Paul,
        Quote:
        .....If anyone sees one of these, please point me to it. I will alert Flippa (or whatever site it's on) that it's a sale likely to result in a very unhappy customer.
        I'm assuming we should do this via the "report post" button instead of contacting you directly via PM? Just wanted to make sure I'm doing this correctly.

        RoD
        Rod, I don't think the WF "Report Post" button can be used on Flippa
        The wires aren't long enough.

        Have a Great Day!
        Michael
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  • Profile picture of the author Istvan Horvath
    Buying an existing product could even be called nothing more than really fast outsourcing, imo. Instead of a week, or a month, to get your finished product, you can have it that same day.
    Where can you buy an existing product that has NOT been sold to anybody else = i.e. getting exclusive rights to it as if it was created by outsourcing (with the proper contract, NDA etc.)?
    Just wondering...
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    • Profile picture of the author LegitIncomes
      Originally Posted by Istvan Horvath View Post

      Where can you buy an existing product that has NOT been sold to anybody else = i.e. getting exclusive rights to it as if it was created by outsourcing (with the proper contract, NDA etc.)?
      Just wondering...
      Not sold to anyone else (not on the market yet) is rare, but I have seen those for sale before. Absolutely.

      However, I don't see why that matters. If you purchase an existing business (which is really what buying a website and product to go with it is), you are the sole owner. Doesn't matter if the previous owner sold zero copies, or 10,000. That doesn't change the fact that you are the new owner, and have 100% exclusive rights to the business.

      For example, let's say Frank Kern had a website and product, and he made 5,000 sales. After making 5,000 sales he sold the business off to someone else.

      Well, why shouldn't that new owner of the business be allowed to run it as a WSO if they wanted to? It's their product, they are the sole owner, and have all the rights to it. They have all of the same rights to their business as someone who outsourced the creation, there's absolutely no difference.
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  • Profile picture of the author Owen Mailer
    I Haven't read lately However i'm sure in the rules it does say if you did not create the product you cannot sell it
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  • Profile picture of the author harryhumph
    Well, is it possible if someone posts my WSO up for me and adds a module or two on the product? And perhaps the person who posts the WSO gets a cut of the profits? I dont see whats wrong with that
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  • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
    There are actually four things being discussed here.

    First, you have the actual product within the WSO. That belongs to the WSO owner and he can sell it if he wants; it's none of our business.

    Second, you have the WSO thread itself. That can't be sold; it belongs to the account, not to the person who owns the account. The owner of that thread would have to close it, because he no longer owns the product.

    Third, you have the "loophole" of that WSO thread explanation, "well what if I transfer the account?" - well, Warrior Forum accounts are not transferable. So no, you can't sell that, either. If you do, the account will be banned.

    And finally, you have the question of whether the new owner can run his own WSO after he's bought the product. That question depends heavily on how exactly he's bought it.

    If he's bought nonexclusive rights that do not allow him to edit the product, then the answer is very clearly NO and the discussion is over. Go run a Warrior Classified instead.


    If he's bought nonexclusive rights that do allow him to edit the product, then he's got to edit the almighty living crap out of it, which is every bit as much work as making a new product. You are not getting an easy way out on this.

    If he's bought exclusive rights, then the answer is very clearly YES as we have seen many, many times in the past.

    But what nobody is saying out loud here is that all of this is designed to prevent the scamming and ripping-off of Warriors.

    If you are trying to scam people or rip people off or get away with something, you are going to get caught and people will not like it and you will lose your WSO and probably your Warrior Forum account with it.

    But if you're just doing normal, honest business? The WSO rules are, in the end, just guidelines. We've had people run WSOs for another Warrior's product as a JV. We've had people start "JV broker" services revolving around the WSO forum. We've had products change hands with WSOs run on either side of the change.

    And when nobody's being ripped off or scammed, it tends to be allowed. There are no guarantees, but then, there are never any guarantees.

    The WSO forum is a great place to do honest business. It is not such a great place to play the technicality game so you can make more money with less work. If you look over the most popular and profitable WSOs, you'll find one major thing they all have in common: they were great products at a great price. If you're trying to find a way you can sell a crap product at a crap price in the WSO forum, or even an average product at an average price, you are already on the road to failure.
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    • Profile picture of the author LegitIncomes
      Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

      There are actually four things being discussed here.

      First, you have the actual product within the WSO. That belongs to the WSO owner and he can sell it if he wants; it's none of our business.

      Second, you have the WSO thread itself. That can't be sold; it belongs to the account, not to the person who owns the account. The owner of that thread would have to close it, because he no longer owns the product.

      Third, you have the "loophole" of that WSO thread explanation, "well what if I transfer the account?" - well, Warrior Forum accounts are not transferable. So no, you can't sell that, either. If you do, the account will be banned.

      And finally, you have the question of whether the new owner can run his own WSO after he's bought the product. That question depends heavily on how exactly he's bought it.

      If he's bought nonexclusive rights that do not allow him to edit the product, then the answer is very clearly NO and the discussion is over. Go run a Warrior Classified instead.


      If he's bought nonexclusive rights that do allow him to edit the product, then he's got to edit the almighty living crap out of it, which is every bit as much work as making a new product. You are not getting an easy way out on this.

      If he's bought exclusive rights, then the answer is very clearly YES as we have seen many, many times in the past.

      But what nobody is saying out loud here is that all of this is designed to prevent the scamming and ripping-off of Warriors.

      If you are trying to scam people or rip people off or get away with something, you are going to get caught and people will not like it and you will lose your WSO and probably your Warrior Forum account with it.

      But if you're just doing normal, honest business? The WSO rules are, in the end, just guidelines. We've had people run WSOs for another Warrior's product as a JV. We've had people start "JV broker" services revolving around the WSO forum. We've had products change hands with WSOs run on either side of the change.

      And when nobody's being ripped off or scammed, it tends to be allowed. There are no guarantees, but then, there are never any guarantees.

      The WSO forum is a great place to do honest business. It is not such a great place to play the technicality game so you can make more money with less work. If you look over the most popular and profitable WSOs, you'll find one major thing they all have in common: they were great products at a great price. If you're trying to find a way you can sell a crap product at a crap price in the WSO forum, or even an average product at an average price, you are already on the road to failure.
      This is the way I see it too...but this isn't what Paul is saying.
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      • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
        Originally Posted by LegitIncomes View Post

        This is the way I see it too...but this isn't what Paul is saying.
        What Paul is saying - if I understand it right - is actually about the transference of Warrior Forum accounts and threads. As he reads the specific case (and I agree), the seller is offering to sell his account and WSO thread to the buyer. This is very much against the rules.

        Now, what HAS happened in the past is, a Warrior will buy exclusive rights to a product from another Warrior and offer a WSO on it. Nothing is said about it. There might be a question about "Isn't this Bob's course?" and then the vendor says "Yes, I bought the course from Bob last month" and it's all fine. Nobody is banned and nothing gets closed.

        That said, I haven't seen this happen in over a year. Which I figure is just because everyone's doing "two-hour report" WSOs instead of buying rights.
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        • Profile picture of the author LegitIncomes
          Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

          What Paul is saying - if I understand it right - is actually about the transference of Warrior Forum accounts and threads. As he reads the specific case (and I agree), the seller is offering to sell his account and WSO thread to the buyer. This is very much against the rules.

          Now, what HAS happened in the past is, a Warrior will buy exclusive rights to a product from another Warrior and offer a WSO on it. Nothing is said about it. There might be a question about "Isn't this Bob's course?" and then the vendor says "Yes, I bought the course from Bob last month" and it's all fine. Nobody is banned and nothing gets closed.

          That said, I haven't seen this happen in over a year. Which I figure is just because everyone's doing "two-hour report" WSOs instead of buying rights.
          I've seen that several times too...never a problem. I guess we'll have to wait for Paul to clarify.....
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          • Profile picture of the author LegitIncomes
            Originally Posted by LegitIncomes View Post

            I've seen that several times too...never a problem. I guess we'll have to wait for Paul to clarify.....
            Paul, can you clarify this?
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  • Profile picture of the author ahlexis
    Well, why shouldn't that new owner of the business be allowed to run it as a WSO if they wanted to? It's their product, they are the sole owner, and have all the rights to it. They have all of the same rights to their business as someone who outsourced the creation, there's absolutely no difference.

    Why such a harsh tone on buying an existing product, but not on outsourcing?
    Because Allen has said "This is the Warrior Special Offer Forum, not the 'buy my product' forum."

    The original spirit of the WSO section of this forum was that people came here to learn about internet marketing. Once they learned and were earning, they would thank others around them who had helped them out

    . . . by allowing them a better price or a special something as a THANK YOU for the knowledge they obtained here @ the forum.

    That's what Allen has said he wanted for his forum. And that's what Paul Myers has said he is enforcing.

    My question to you is, "What is it that the buyer of the product who comes here to launch a WSO on his newly acquired intellectual property is saying THANK YOU for?"

    He's not. He's just saying "Buy My Stuff!"

    But don't panic; there IS a place on the forum to advertise this product! And that is the Warrior Classified section.
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    • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
      Originally Posted by ahlexis View Post

      My question to you is, "What is it that the buyer of the product who comes here to launch a WSO on his newly acquired intellectual property is saying THANK YOU for?"
      What has the buyer gotten from the Warrior Forum?

      Notice the case I mention in my last post: one Warrior (Bob) bought rights from another Warrior (Alice). Alice originally ran this as a WSO; Bob bought the WSO and thought it was great. Now Alice is closing the WSO and getting out of that business entirely, so Bob says "wait - you helped me a lot, let me buy the course from you so I can keep offering it to other Warriors." And Alice says "well, okay" and sells it to Bob.

      Bob is saying "thank you" for months of learning and support, plus an awesome course that made a big difference to him.

      It all depends on who the buyer is.
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      • Profile picture of the author Kay King
        It all depends on who the buyer is.
        ...and who the seller is?

        I guess I always thought part of a WSO was buying a product from someone who had created it from his own knowledge or experience. I've always known you could outsource the work but that still (I assumed) required you to come up with an idea/theory/plan/method.

        If you can buy the product someone else sold in a WSO and then run your own WSO with it - it's not the same to me. I've run into a couple purchases where the person listed after buying wasn't the same person who sold in the WSO thread. That's why the only WSO's I buy now are from people I KNOW. Yes, I might miss some great deals but I can live with that.

        We'll all see it somewhat differently and have our own opinions about it. In the end, the mods decide how it goes and that's fine with me.

        kay
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        • Profile picture of the author LegitIncomes
          Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

          ...and who the seller is?

          I guess I always thought part of a WSO was buying a product from someone who had created it from his own knowledge or experience. I've always known you could outsource the work but that still (I assumed) required you to come up with an idea/theory/plan/method.

          If you can buy the product someone else sold in a WSO and then run your own WSO with it - it's not the same to me. I've run into a couple purchases where the person listed after buying wasn't the same person who sold in the WSO thread. That's why the only WSO's I buy now are from people I KNOW. Yes, I might miss some great deals but I can live with that.

          We'll all see it somewhat differently and have our own opinions about it. In the end, the mods decide how it goes and that's fine with me.

          kay
          True. But how much work does that really take? Not saying this would be the best way to go about it....but I could browse the WSO forum (or clickbank, etc...) for 10 minutes, and have 10 new ideas for products I want to create by outsourcing.
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        • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
          Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

          ...and who the seller is?
          Kay, I am talking about the buyer OF THE RIGHTS, not of the product being sold as a WSO. The purchase of the rights takes the seller out of the picture, and they simply don't matter anymore.

          I've always known you could outsource the work but that still (I assumed) required you to come up with an idea/theory/plan/method.
          As one of the people who used to get those outsourcing jobs, let me assure you that I often wrote the core of someone else's WSO (and/or Clickbank product) on the basis of a single keyword phrase.

          That's why the only WSO's I buy now are from people I KNOW. Yes, I might miss some great deals but I can live with that.
          In other words, the person you're buying from is more important than what you are buying.

          Which is precisely why people are trying to buy and sell accounts.
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        • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
          Banned
          Originally Posted by Istvan Horvath View Post

          Where can you buy an existing product that has NOT been sold to anybody else = i.e. getting exclusive rights to it as if it was created by outsourcing (with the proper contract, NDA etc.)?
          Just wondering...
          On Flippa. There are a lot of "business in a box" type of sites that are sold that have never been launched anywhere. I can't see this as being a problem if you were to buy one and launch a WSO with this type of site and product.

          Originally Posted by Michael Mayo View Post

          Rod, I don't think the WF "Report Post" button can be used on Flippa
          The wires aren't long enough.

          Have a Great Day!
          Michael
          Flippa listings have their own report button. Just expect a reply and remedy on Australian time, not US time.

          Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

          ...and who the seller is?

          I guess I always thought part of a WSO was buying a product from someone who had created it from his own knowledge or experience. I've always known you could outsource the work but that still (I assumed) required you to come up with an idea/theory/plan/method.

          If you can buy the product someone else sold in a WSO and then run your own WSO with it - it's not the same to me. I've run into a couple purchases where the person listed after buying wasn't the same person who sold in the WSO thread. That's why the only WSO's I buy now are from people I KNOW. Yes, I might miss some great deals but I can live with that.

          We'll all see it somewhat differently and have our own opinions about it. In the end, the mods decide how it goes and that's fine with me.

          kay

          Kay, there are so many gray areas and other things to consider. It's not just black and white.

          Example: I sold NicheBloggingTreasure to another Warrior and he is selling in Complete Sites for Sale. By now, most people know this ... all my previous customers and anyone who asks is told there's been an ownership change. It doesn't cause any confusion on the product or anything else. People who previously bought aren't going to start buying the same sites all over again.

          Then I bought plrstyle from SuiteJ. SuiteJ and I have long had a robust business association and indeed, our styles and our businesses have been very close to the same model.

          I now list plrstyle on Complete Sites for Sale and by now most know that I took over that business because Jay had to shut it down due to personal reasons. Again, no one is going to be confused and re-buy a membership that he already has. And just as importantly, the customers who were already there are getting the same quality they expected from Jay ... because our work is so similar.

          Should I not be able to sell my sites and should Mark, the new owner of NicheBloggingTreasure not be able to sell his sites on the WF just because a bit of musical chairs has occurred.

          Both businesses are reputable and the sellers both old and new are not scamming anyone or deceiving anyone. Customers are happy.

          I'm listing in Complete Sites for Sale, which is not the WSO section, but according to this, I shouldn't list plrstyle as a WSO, even though no scam has occurred and no confusion to the customer exists.

          As for the remark about earning the privilege of selling, I don't think anyone could say that I don't contribute something to the WF, if nothing more than a funny avatar.
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  • Profile picture of the author Richard Tunnah
    I've seen this and personally don't like it when someone flips their wso while it's still active. I wasn't sure of how the warrior forum looked upon this practice but for me it's a black mark against the seller as whatever they stated in the wso may not be true/honoured plus they sell my details. Infact I went back to a wso seller about 6 weeks after a purchased the wso and got told it had been sold on and he no longer supported people whereas the new owner seemed to have changed the premise of the wso completely. Probably should have mentioned it at the time to the mods here. I know one prolific seller that was doing that was banned here anyway.

    Rich
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    • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Richard Tunnah View Post

      I've seen this and personally don't like it when someone flips their wso while it's still active. I wasn't sure of how the warrior forum looked upon this practice but for me it's a black mark against the seller as whatever they stated in the wso may not be true/honoured plus they sell my details. Infact I went back to a wso seller about 6 weeks after a purchased the wso and got told it had been sold on and he no longer supported people whereas the new owner seemed to have changed the premise of the wso completely. Probably should have mentioned it at the time to the mods here. I know one prolific seller that was doing that was banned here anyway.

      Rich
      And this is a perfect example of why it isn't allowed and how not to do it.

      I too bought a product/WSO and had a problem that I wanted solved. It had changed hands and previous customers were no longer being supported.

      When you buy a business, you should also buy the responsibility of taking care of previous customers of the product. It's just good business to do so. In this case, both the old owner and new owner lost me as a customer.
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      • Profile picture of the author Kay King
        SB -

        My comments only apply to WSO section. No problem with selling and re-selling products/sites etc in other classified sections. I've always considered WSOs to be operating under different rules. Pulling wool from eyes now.:rolleyes:

        kay
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      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
        Always with the legalistic quibbling. Tell people there's something that's outside the rules, and even the ones with no intention of doing it will debate and nitpick about how they might be allowed to get away with it.

        All this sort of thing does it force the mods to draw the lines closer in, and leave less room for creative thinking. Not because we want to, but because we know what happens if you let people in this mode start moving toward the lines.

        Inch, mile, ban.

        The bloody rule isn't that complicated: It must be your product, which you personally created or had created exclusively for you.

        Not, "I bought the exclusive rights after the other guy sold it here." Not, "I bought PLR and made significant changes to it." And certainly not, "The guy was banned here so I'm selling his product instead of him."

        There have been a number of people and groups recently that had what they thought were brilliant ways around this, and spent a lot of time and resources setting up ways to sell other people's stuff here. They were virtually wasted effort, because they got stopped as soon as they raised their heads.

        One got the okay for a specific type of service and then "expanded" on the idea in ways that had nothing to do with what was originally described. Stopped as soon as it became visible.

        Several others got the bright idea of running "group" WSOs, with one product as the "anchor" and a bunch of bonuses you had to subscribe to get. Didn't bother mentioning that in the offer, which got them shut down. The same will happen if people start doing the group bonuses thing and we find out the email addresses are being shared with the "bonus" contributors.

        Like the song says, "Don't out-think your common sense."

        Also, do not confuse the rules in WFH, the classifieds or Sites for Sale with the rules in the WSO section. The WSO section is different, and the rules are different. You can sell almost anything in the classified section, including running ads for affiliate products or pitching rewritten PLR.

        Don't try those in WSO. They'll just get moved to the classifieds, like it says in the rules.

        Johnny said:
        If you have exclusive rights then it is considered your product, just as if you had paid someone to create it for you.
        Not for purposes of the WSO section.

        We let a couple of these go when this stuff started, because no rights had been sold to members and the buyer continued to support the seller's customers. I wasn't thrilled about the example, but we did it. We learned. One of the lessons is being replayed in this thread.

        Exceptions will be very unusual in the future. And don't bother asking me to describe them, because I'm not going to supply fodder for people to twist their ideas around to try and defeat the spirit of the rules.

        Legit,
        I just don't understand the "huge confusion" that could be caused....examples?
        Why is it that people have such trouble looking at things in a step-by-step, "what happens next," fashion? I mean, I get it when it's someone new, who doesn't have the experience to know how things happen here. But smart people with 5 to 10 years as a member? That baffles me.

        Same product, same name: Clearly violates the rule about it being your original product. Minor first order issues, mostly related to a small number of refunds.

        Second order effects include the spreading assumption that selling PLR here is okay, along with all the related challenges. Those include piracy, both deliberate and unintentional. ("Unintentional pirate" is my term for people who buy rights from someone who didn't have the right to sell them, and then act on that purchase in the mistaken belief that they're doing something legal.)

        Most people who get caught pirating things here (not a large number, but enough that it's a familar situation) claim they bought the rights from someone. Most of the time, that's a lie. We have no way of knowing which times, and it doesn't really matter. Especially when they are offering equally unfounded rights as part of their WSO.

        Example: I bought a pretty cool graphics package recently that included fonts. I looked at the fonts and realized the guy was selling PLR to stuff that was copyrighted by Microsoft, among others. Clearly I can't do anything with any of those fonts that weren't already part of the Windows distribution I have, even for my own sites. But he claims he bought the rights from a PLR site. (They were bonuses, and didn't overshadow the main WSO product.)

        Step that out, though... I can't use anything at all in that package. I don't have any reason at this point to believe any of it is original and within his rights to sell.

        People who don't pay attention to such things could end up being sued for copyright infringement if they assume the guy has the legal authority to pass along those rights.

        Major confusion indeed.

        Same product, different name: All of the above, with serious refund issues. Not to mention the time it wastes for members and moderators dealing with it.

        Improved version of the product, same or different name: All of the above, plus the cascade of refunds likely to fall on the original seller because his product wasn't "as good as" the new version.

        And, as with the others, the arguments about the rules, the shouts that the forum is somehow responsible for "rehashed content," etc.

        Mind you, none of these even begin to take into account the very different notions of intellectual property rights that exist in many countries.

        Same graphics, different underlying code: Obvious, yes?

        Same underlying code, different graphics: The problems are just as obvious, but proving the copyright issue isn't quite as easy. Especially given that smart thieves are likely to encrypt the code, and offer the same reasons legit coders would for their encryption.

        All of this is encouraged by allowing people to buy products from others and sell them here as WSOs. The same issues are less likely to occur in the classifieds section, because the incentive isn't as big there. Less traffic, and the visitors to that section tend to be looking for specific sorts of things.

        Then there's the question of support/refund liability for the products sold this way. It doesn't matter how clear the deal is between the creator and the new owner. Customers don't know those points, and most of them don't care. Especially if the original seller (creator) is no longer able to be contacted by the customer.

        In those cases, the customers are likely to claim the new seller is just a fake name, and really the same person who they bought the product from. Once someone believes that, whether it's true or not, they're going to cling to that belief no matter what evidence is presented to the contrary. They will start flinging accusations around at anyone who isn't 100% on their side of the issue. The forum, the mods, other customers, the payment processor, WSO Pro... anyone and everyone who had anything to do with the original deal (and some who didn't) or with the new seller is likely to be accused of fraud and more.

        And, assuming there really is a problem with the original seller, there isn't a damned thing we can do to help them in that kind of case.

        Sure, the rational person says, "Whose name was on the receipt when I bought?" But if they believe the name was fake, or the new name of the seller is, is it irrational for them to want a proper resolution of the issue? They may be mistaken about facts, but the motivation is often right.

        That creates chaos on threads, which has both buyers and sellers screaming at each other. That's disruptive to everyone involved in the process and the WSO section.

        None of this is theoretical. Every bit of it, and more, has happened over and over here as the result of people selling products there which they didn't create, or have created exclusively for them.

        If you look at the first order effects, it doesn't seem like much. Watch the cascade into second order stuff, and it's a whole other ball game.


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        • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
          Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

          It must be your product, which you personally created or had created exclusively for you.
          Well, see, the thing is...

          "All WSO's Must Be Something You Created. A Product Of Your Own. No exceptions."

          The rule is at least complicated enough that you're telling us what it means, not what it says.

          If I buy exclusive rights to a product, then I own it, and it is as far as I can tell a product of my own - no less than if I had commissioned it to order from an outsourcing team.

          But I did not have it created exclusively for me, so you don't think it's okay to run as a WSO. And that's all well and good. After all, the sticky at the top of the WSO forum doesn't enforce the rules; people like you do that.

          So don't you think it would be a good idea if the sticky and the people were saying the same thing, so it REALLY "isn't that complicated" to follow the rules?
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          • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
            Caliban,
            If I buy exclusive rights to a product, then I own it, and it is as far as I can tell a product of my own - no less than if I had commissioned it to order from an outsourcing team.
            Boolean AND (inclusive), not AND/OR.

            Commissioning a product to be built by someone else to your specs and exclusively for you has been defined by Allen as being something you created, for purposes of that rule. Argue it with him if you like. The majority of the rest of us are pretty clear on the concept.
            So don't you think it would be a good idea if the sticky and the people were saying the same thing, so it REALLY "isn't that complicated" to follow the rules?
            Do I think it's a good idea to add something to every rule every time someone thinks they've spotted a loophole? Not personally, no.

            The rules are enforced based on common understandings, not strict legalistic construction. For the most part, they only create issues for people in two categories: People who want to game them for some purpose outside their original intent, and people who are out-thinking their common sense.

            You clearly don't fall into the first category.

            This is, by the way, the reason most moderators don't get into these discussions. It wastes a great deal of time for no purpose but the debating entertainment of people with more brains than are useful in this context.


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            • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
              Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

              It wastes a great deal of time for no purpose but the debating entertainment of people with more brains than are useful in this context.
              Actually, my purpose is to get the written rules to reflect the actual rules, so that when people come to me and ask "what kind of product can I run as a WSO?" it is easiest and best for me to say "just read the rules, it's not like they are ambiguous or unclear."

              I'd really like to know what problem you have with that, but you'll probably just say "the rules are just fine" even though this entire thread exists because the rules ARE NOT clear in several respects. If "just read the rules" isn't good enough, something is wrong and should be fixed.
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              • Profile picture of the author Johnny Slater
                Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

                Actually, my purpose is to get the written rules to reflect the actual rules, so that when people come to me and ask "what kind of product can I run as a WSO?" it is easiest and best for me to say "just read the rules, it's not like they are ambiguous or unclear."
                CD, you have been here several years now, but you weren't here for something that was an important reason the rules are written the way they are.

                A while before you joined the forum Allen did try to write out exacting rules and clarify every minute little point on every rule. This caused a massive headache for everyone.

                Each rule was debated to death in the main forum. There were at least 10 threads a week of people trying to outsmart Allen and the mods by trying to find loopholes in the written rules. Their stance was that it it wasn't expressly forbidden in the written rules then it must be allowed.

                Allen had hell trying to keep up with all the idiots who were trying to game the system, so much so that he seriously debated just killing the WSO forum completely. In the end, he just created a few base rules that covered the majority of the issues and said that the WSO mods have latitude to use their own common sense as to what the rules covered and didn't cover.

                There have always been unwritten rules here that we all learn from time and continued participation. The WSO section has several unwritten rules but also the written rules have enough leeway in them to allow the mods to use their best judgement on a case by case basis.

                I get that Paul is saying. It makes sense and the fact that a few cases were allowed in the past in no way overshadows the fact that these things are no longer being allowed now.

                Also, if someone comes to you and asks for advice on what or how to run a WSO, your best bet would be to advise them to do their on research because you are not a mod and do not have any kind of inside track on what would or would not be allowed.
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                • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                  Johnny,
                  Allen had hell trying to keep up with all the idiots who were trying to game the system, so much so that he seriously debated just killing the WSO forum completely.
                  That was a very near thing.

                  The bit that gets me is the way so many people act as if this forum was their only option in the market. Yeah, we're one of the biggest forums in this industry, if not the biggest, but even that is a tiny thing in the scope of the Internet. An average-sized ad network probably has access to more people in a given day than this forum does in a month.

                  That's just one more reason I keep reminding people not to base their incomes too heavily on this place, or any other single property they don't personally own. Even ignoring the potential for loss of access here for whatever reason, being too dependent on any one channel blinds you to the broader picture and the other markets. That limits your business's growth in ways that just don't need to be.

                  Forum-lawyering is often a sign that someone is too dependent on the venue they're debating.


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                  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                    Paul I don't understand what they did here that was wrong. Seems like just normal list building and up-selling of people they had sold to? Did you omit a key detail about what they did wrong?
                    They added terms to the deal after the sale was made.

                    When that one was corrected, we let the deal in question continue. After discussion, we decided that those wouldn't be allowed in the future, even with appropriate up front disclosure of the required subscriptions, because they weren't proper WSOs. They weren't even primarily the poster's own products. The bonuses overshadowed the poster's offerings, and MUST DO SO for that kind of thing to be worth doing in the first place.

                    If we let it happen at all, we get into arguments about where the line is drawn, and why does there need to be a line anyway, and who the hell are we to be watching out for the members aren't they adult enough to watch out for themselves blah blah blah. The people making those arguments depend on the presence of s lot of inexperienced people in the group who don't know to watch out for those things. They count on people not knowing better, all while claiming everyone should.

                    Some things aren't allowed in small amounts because they provide the fuel for less scrupulous people to argue for larger amounts.


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                    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
                      potential for loss of access here
                      Flashback to a couple years ago when the WF had what I think might have been a DDOS attack or was it hacking? At any rate, it was a rare week when the WF was down for an extended period time.

                      A search for "warrior forum down" brought at least a couple pages of frantic "my income is gone" - "they have to get it back up" - "my sales have dried up" blog posts and posts on other forums. For some people here - the WF downtime was chaos for their business and that shouldn't be the case.

                      Others were blogging "I got a lot of work done in the time I would usually be cruising the WF."

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                      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                        Kay,
                        Others were blogging "I got a lot of work done in the time I would usually be cruising the WF."
                        [chuckle] I hear that!

                        I did just the basics of moderating today, plus a few forays into discussion, and wrote over 9,000 words toward my latest product. Imagine what I could have done if I wasn't embroiled in arguing with very smart people over very silly things!


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                • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
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                  Originally Posted by Johnny Slater View Post

                  In the end, he just created a few base rules that covered the majority of the issues and said that the WSO mods have latitude to use their own common sense as to what the rules covered and didn't cover.

                  There have always been unwritten rules here that we all learn from time and continued participation. The WSO section has several unwritten rules but also the written rules have enough leeway in them to allow the mods to use their best judgement on a case by case basis.
                  Perfect explanation as goes along with what most have seen or experienced. The rules are deliberately ambiguous to give mods the leeway to make common sense judgements on a case by case basis. Actually, I personally prefer it this way. I don't like to see people banned because they made an innocent mistake or a misinterpretation of rules.

                  I do like to see people get banned because they trying to find every which way to slide through a loophole in the rules.
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                  • Profile picture of the author Tina Golden
                    Originally Posted by mikemcmillan View Post

                    Tina, you are a great and respected Warrior and I always respect your opinions because they are backed by common sense and good intentions.

                    However, I do disagree with the part of your statement quoted above. There are a handful of people who do this with regularity. I have complained about this in the past. I always go back to the thing about a WSO product must be something you created yourself.

                    Mike
                    I didn't say that I agreed or approved of the practice, Mike. I just stated that it happens all the time. I assumed it was allowed because I have seen it a bunch of times but now that Paul has clarified that it isn't, I can safely report such things from now on.

                    Originally Posted by Johnny Slater View Post

                    Kay, there are several products that have been allowed to be run as WSO's when someone bought the entire product from the original creator.
                    That's why I thought it must be allowed. Now that Paul has clarified that it is not allowed NOW, I will be sure to tell people that when asked. Rules and communities do evolve and this is one of those cases.
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        • Profile picture of the author rhinocl
          Paul I don't understand what they did here that was wrong. Seems like just normal list building and up-selling of people they had sold to? Did you omit a key detail about what they did wrong?
          Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post



          {snipped}

          Several others got the bright idea of running "group" WSOs, with one product as the "anchor" and a bunch of bonuses you had to subscribe to get. Didn't bother mentioning that in the offer, which got them shut down. The same will happen if people start doing the group bonuses thing and we find out the email addresses are being shared with the "bonus" contributors.

          {/snipped}
          Paul
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  • Profile picture of the author Mohammad Afaq
    So basically you can sell the product you are selling as a WSO but after you sell it the new owner wouldn't be able to sell it on Warrior Forum again and neither can you keep the thread and sell it on behalf of the new owner.

    Makes sense
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  • Profile picture of the author kaper7
    There is a big difference between rules and ethics. I have seen too many market unethically but were allowed. Each person has to make their own call after knowing what the rules are here in the forum.

    I would not buy a wso title even if it was allowed but that's me.
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Caliban,
      I'd really like to know what problem you have with that
      I don't. You can tell people whatever you like. If they rely on your interpretation and get banned because you outsmarted yourself (and them), that's on you. And them.

      The rules are plenty clear for most people. As I said, the issues arise mostly in those two types of cases. Go back to the AND vs AND/OR point and it becomes easy to understand.

      If someone goofs innocently and in an area where they might legitimately have misunderstood, they're unlikely to face any kind of severe penalty for that. We don't slam people for edge cases in good faith.

      We also don't try to write bullet-proof rules. That is impossible, and it only leads to confusing people even more. Every additional term or phrase you add creates more room for forum lawyering, which makes for more edge cases and extra arguments. That doesn't make things easier on anyone.


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  • Profile picture of the author Rocket Media
    This is a very long discussion for a question that has such a simple answer lol. The reality is that site flippers do this multiple times a day. It's not going to be stopped but it is against the rules. It's really up to you and your own morale and how you want to treat the customers that have already purchased from you.
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Rarebit, Medium,
      The reality is that site flippers do this multiple times a day. It's not going to be stopped but it is against the rules.
      Thank you for your week-old sagacity on this issue.

      There may be things in the marketing field about which you know a great deal. This is clearly not one of them. Perhaps we might interest you in the proper sequence for discussion in forums like this: Read first. Then respond.

      It may not be able to be stopped in advance in every case, but I can think of at least 7 different ways to make that deal a Very Bad Idea in this forum. And that's just the quiet, completely legit, no conflict approaches.

      But hey... Thanks for sharing your wisdom!


      Paul

      PS: It's like breathing. First, take it in, slowly. Then out with the big wind.
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  • Profile picture of the author mikemcmillan
    I know, Tina. If we couldn't trust you, we couldn't trust anyone here on the Forum! I wasn't accusing you, I just meant I disagreed with the practice you were describing.

    Nothing to do with you , Tina--but is seems like the only reason this thread has gone so long is not that people don't understand the rule, it's that they want to find ways around it.

    1. Do you create the product yourself?
    2. Did you pay someone to create it exclusively for you?

    If anyone can't answer yes to one of those questions, they shouldn't be offering it as a WSO here (Am I missing something here?).
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  • Profile picture of the author Mark Filsaime
    If I make a WSO with MY knowledge, proof of earnings etc... the moment I SELL that to someone else it becomes a lie - unless they can prove that they can do the same thing.
    I think the main problem here though is that we don't want exact duplicate products being sold in the WSO forum...
    I haven't bought a WSO yet but is it legit for a Warrior to create a product based on prior art? Can a WSO seller report this to WF?

    Well, why shouldn't that new owner of the business be allowed to run it as a WSO if they wanted to? It's their product, they are the sole owner, and have all the rights to it. They have all of the same rights to their business as someone who outsourced the creation, there's absolutely no difference.
    This is somehow answered by CDarklock with the quote below ...

    If he's bought exclusive rights, then the answer is very clearly YES as we have seen many, many times in the past.
    This got me confused though. I was telling myself that the topic question is not a legit transaction after reading all the replies. This somehow indicates that the WSO on Flippa can have a chance being technically legit. What instances or how that a WSO can be sold with exclusive rights without giving up a thread or the account to someone else?
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    • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Mark Filsaime View Post

      this got me confused though. I was telling myself that the topic question is not a legit transaction after reading all the replies. This somehow indicates that the WSO on Flippa can have a chance being technically legit. What instances or how that a WSO can be sold with exclusive rights without giving up a thread or the account to someone else?
      The only answer to the question you need to know is Paul Myers answer to the question.

      You can't buy a previous WSO and run it as your WSO
      You can create a unique product or hire someone to create a unique product exclusively for you to run as a WSO.
      You cannot bump threads in your account on someone else's behalf or run a WSO for someone else.

      That's all you really need to know on the topic.
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