Good for you! I have used digital scrapbooking and you are right lots of competition and substandard crud.

Di, Great points. I too would be concerned about undervaluing myself if I were to ever do this; however, perhaps as Richard suggests..,


Which makes me wonder if they actually "do".

A thought - release a "part-product" for (eg) $5 - $7; measure interest, get feedback on proposed direction - then if all points favorably, go ahead with full product.

Very possible.

Paul

PS. Richard, I'm about 1000K's north of Sydney, Sunshine Coast -

Ron, I actually agree with you 100%. And I'm as guilty as everybody else
who has caved in to the "I want it cheap, I want it now and I want a
guarantee that I'm going to make a gazillion bucks with it" market.

This is the main reason why I work very little these days, if at all. Yeah, I
still put out cheap products, but hell, they only take me 4 to 8 hours to
put together and still earn me, if you look at it at an hourly basis, well over
$100 per hour worked. So who gives a f**k?

If I sound jaded, yeah, I'm beyond jaded. Which is why I can't wait to
chuck this whole business for good. Only reason I even put in the few hours
a month I do now is because I feel guilty not working when my wife has to
go to that miserable war zone infested high school day after day. When she
retires in 3 years, I'm done for good. We don't need the money anymore. I've
made my fortune and quite honestly, I'd rather be spending ALL my time doing
other things. But if my wife still has to work (to get her full pension and IRA
package) then I should have to work too. As it is, I feel guilty that I maybe
but in 16 hours for a whole month, if that.

You should see my Ebay bill for Magic cards these days. It's more than most
people spend on their business.

But I earned it. And yeah, I earned it by catering to the budget market. If I
had to do it all over again, for starters, I would have never touched the IM
niche and just put up a massive authority site in one of the desperate
buyers super niches. Had I done this in 2003 when I first started (what the
hell did I know) I'd be rolling in it today instead of just very comfortable.

Yeah, I'm kind of letting my hair down in this thread. Why? As a message to
others to NOT do what I did. Working 14 hour days, 7 days a week, just to
make 5 figures a month is NOT fun. Repeat...NOT.

I could have worked less and made more if I put together a completely
different business model. No point in doing it now as I don't need the money
anymore. But boy, if I could do it all over again.

Anyway, sorry for the rant, but this HAD to be said.

Fortunately, my stupidity didn't leave me broke.

Yeah, I was lucky.

The next guy who devalues his worth may not be so lucky.

Take this as a warning folks...for whatever it's worth to you.

There is more demand then there are suppliers, so its the suppliers fault for caving to lower prices.

Thats the point if the product isnt selling at your prefferred price the thing to do is move to another product choice. Not lower the price

Like I said in another thread not every product is a winner, 1 in 10 will be a success. learn to drop products and move on. OR find away to add value to the product so it does sell

Point is raise the value of the product till it sells, dont lower the price to make it sell

Depends on what you are selling, a commodity or something more unique.

If all you're selling is YAMPs (Yet Another MMO Product), then you are looking at selling for commodity prices.

Before he retired, one of my wife's uncles raised barley on part of his farm. He had a choice - truck his barley in to the elevator in town and take the cash price, or demonstrate superior value and sell it direct to a brewer for three times that. He chose to sell to the brewer, thus making three times the return for the same growing effort.

Build value into your offer and effectively demonstrate that value in your thread or sales page. You may move up on the supply curve, making fewer sales, but you won't be giving away $27, $47, even $97 products away for $7...

I wasn't always like that. "Special Offer" used to mean discount from the regular public price. Now, it means whip up a short report and get affiliates to mail for it.

Andy makes good hard sense with his post. However the best part of his post in my opinion is:

If you continue marketing to your list in the "low dollar value" they will go into "sticker shock" when you market a very "high value" product with an appropriate price tag. Just ask me I can tell you all about it.

It took me over a year for my very active list to get over "sticker shock", but once they did, it began to pay off big time for me. Consequently, I developed a list of buyers that were willing to step up to the pump.

However, I make darn sure that what product I recommend or my own product of is of value. And when they experience it, regardless if they pay a high price tag or low price tag they know darn good and well they received their monies worth. My proof of that comes from a very, very low refund rate over the last 5 years. It is almost non existent.

One point should be made though that often times a low price Volume Sales can make one heck of a profit and a long term business; which just keeps growing and growing. Bringing in huge pay days month after month. This is where the trust factor comes in, because each time your new product comes out it's better than the last one. It solves a problem for folks who need a solution and is priced at the Sweet Price Point. (This is called knowing your clients".

And now it's time for me to go send out an offer to my list and give them what they are looking for.

Ken Leatherman

The Old Geezer

P.S. Thanks folks for making this an interesting and informative thread for all Warriors.

Hi Andy, I agree with you, but I have a question: did you ever try to begin with a $97 product? If no, why?

That really makes sense. Eventually, if the product is crap, the customers would have no choice but to say, hey, it was only 5 bucks, and ultimately avoid your future products.

[DELETED]

Great point about the $.99 economy observation. It is happening everywhere.

Heck I can go to Taco Bell right now and buy enough food for lunch and dinner for $5!!!

You got that right - I read some where today that Walmart is losing customers to 99 cent stores so they are building more "Walmart Expresses" to try and win back some of those lost customers

Very well said. You are right about the .99 economy and you
are also right that there are MANY out there who will gladly pay
much more. So, like Frank Kern advised in his State of The Internet
address for this year, the question we should be asking is....

WHAT CAN WE SELL, TO PEOPLE WITH MONEY, AT PREMIUM PRICING
THAT WILL BE OF GREATER VALUE TO THEM, THAN THE MONEY THEY PAY??

http://frankkern.com/state-of-the-internet-success/

So, anyone who is REALLY serious about stopping the slavery
of $5 products like Steven explained in his post above, should
seriously start rethinking their strategies!

Kingsley

I happen to agree with the above sentiments so I won't labour the point by repeating them. However, I will give you an example from a consumer's perspective.

I have bought several WSOs from total strangers (not names I recognise in the IM market) and the most expensive WSO from a known marketer (which disappointed, by the way) was $37. Those purchased at prices between $5 - £17 were hands down excellent value. I should know - I've spent tens of thousands of dollars on products priced between $97 and $997 from top marketers.

Most of the WSOs were so good that I've indicated to the merchants that they may market to me at any time they come up with a new product (not necessarily a WSO).

By providing a good quality product and overdelivering on a WSO, customer trust can be established quickly and repeat business (even for higher ticket items) guaranteed. On more than one occasion after buying great WSOs, I've gone on a hunt for the marketers' own sites to see what else they had to offer. In many cases, I've either bought another product from their sites or signed up to their continuity program. But for the low price/high value WSOs, they would not have been able to add me to their list of customer for their higher priced products.

Apart from building loyalty and trust, where else would we, marketers, find a six-figure captive audience (increasing by the day) hungry for our products?

Those who may agree with the notion that we are shooting ourselves in the foot could, perhaps, consider tailoring their WSOs in such a way that whilst they offer good value (after all, that's what consumers want and we should deliver every time), they don't also give away the store with the $5, $7 or $15 product.

Instead, they (particularly for newcomer marketers) use their value WSOs for lead generation, finding eager affiliates and one or more influential JV partners who may help to take their business up to another level.

And finally, let's not forget to treat our $5 or $7 purchasers with respect. They are BUYERS which, in my book, beats having thousands of freebie-seeking subscribers (acquired with great effort and money) who never buy a damned thing from us.


James

Yeah, I agree. It's not just WSO products either. I get the feeling that most product creators think their stuff is so valuable that they pay no attention to structure, research, or the "big idea" of their product. Instead, it reads like a rambling account of their journey to IM success...with some tactics thrown in there.

Realistically, the best books to learn about IM are actual books in the bookstores that teach about marketing. Learning how to market is how you make money onlne, not buy figuring out how to get free links from Squidoo and Hubpages.

IMers try to set the price of their products based on potential value that the reader may gain from their products. For them, it's kinda like the ultimate rev-share deal. Price it based on potential revenue, but not be responsible if you don't hit that revenue number.

Dennis, everybody should take your response and plaster it on their
forehead.

I couldn't have said it better myself.

Well....

Good points made but here is my take:

In the past I spent a LOT of money on courses from some of the biggest names. Some of them were pure crap for a lot of money. In fact, one ebook I bought as a WSO a couple of months ago was a lot better than many of those.

Many of the BIG GURUS started turning out tons of high-priced garbage aimed at the newbie, get rich quick market. And some of it was rehashed garbage.

The WSO marketplace is one I look at primarily as a source for specific techniques or tools. For this it is invaluable. For under $20 I can get expertise on a subject and not have to spend my time exploring every little aspect of it.

I am not sure what high-priced training anyone would sell me anymore. Not that I know everything about the market but I simply cannot imagine spending hundreds of dollars on a course that starts with keyword research and moves on to buying a domain etc.

When all of that was fairly new, 7 or 8 years ago, a product could walk you thru all of that and it was valuable....then. Times have changed. The IM world moves at an astoundingly rapid pace. Courses that were relevant a couple of years ago are out of date.

I remember paying $275 dollars for a course from Jim Edwards on setting up mini-sites, complete with DVDs. I thought it was the biggest bargain ever. It made me money. Now that the knowledge is available with an internet search I am unwilling to pay for a soup-to-nuts solution and will only buy specific items.

The WSO market is not perfect. There is a lot of junk and re-hashed garbage, even from some pretty well known names. But when I want to find out about a certain IM technique or market it is the first place I go. If I choose wrong I am only out a few bucks, not a couple of hundred.

Spoken as a WSO junkie.

Thanks for a great discussion. Also, thanks to Steve Wagenheim for all of the great products he has put out here as well as the knowledge freely given.

DTaylor

What an awesome thread - so much to comment on - these are just my replies to what's going on on the first page:

For the individual marketer, yes you will attract the wrong kind of customer. Overall in the marketplace, only the people who insist on playing that game are making it hard on themselves. It's not the only game you can play.

These two statements are intimately tied together. Beginning or stupid marketers make the mistake of listening to the whiniest segment of their audience, which is also likely to be the least satisfied and most demanding. They want everything for nothing, and creating products to please those people is a formula for failure.

I agree with you that the individual doing this is harming their own potential. But they aren't killing the marketplace, IMHO. They are actually creating an opportunity for people who want to stand apart. When everyone's doing the same thing it creates a pattern. If you point that pattern out to people, it becomes boring and the thing that's different is the thing that stands out.

Right now, it's easier than it's ever been to create a perception of pre-eminence in this market because all you have to do is charge more, and people presume you MUST be better than everyone else.

The key thing to note here is that whether it's a YAMP or not is entirely up to the way you position that info and yourself. As you pointed out, it's not the product or how much work you do that gives the product it's value - the value is created by telling the right story to the right customer at the right time.

Absolutely. The issue people have when they sell a $5 WSO now is that they CREATE a $97 Value product and give it away for $5 and use the WSO forum as their only channel. Instead, they should actually create the $97 product and give away a SLIVER of it for $5. In the former case, you attract people for whom $5 is a large sum. For the latter, you attract people who have $97 to spend in the first place.

The guy who will buy at $197 will certainly buy stuff that's cheaper as well. The guy who will buy something at $7 may not be able to afford anything more expensive. That's why you need to target the latter customer and anchor your value for THAT guy. $7 is the taste of what you have to offer, not the whole meal.

And that's how this has turned into a new opportunity. In the beginning, you could charge a lot for high quality because there was NO competition, right? How about now, where the competition is all low priced garbage? I tend to think that having a BAD alternative to your products is even better than having NO alternative. It's definitely a lot easier to sell. "You can't get this anywhere else because it doesn't exist" or "You can try buying this from someone else for less, but you will discover that those guys are out to screw you over."

I agree with you about the mentality, but not the marketplace. The WF is more like a flea market or a bazaar. Yeah, there's lots of stalls with cheap wares. But there CAN also be stalls with rare, and expensive curios.

This really hits home even for me - as much as I know about this stuff from working with clients, I definitely need to drink my own Kool-aid, so thanks for the reminder!

Sadly I think this is inevitable as the markets become more and more saturated.

1 - more people getting involved, many just want to make SOME money, they undercut others as it seems the easiest sales tactic. As information products have no on-going production costs, so it is easy to do this, unlike with physical things. Then the next guy to come along undercuts this and so on.. the prices go down as the benchmark for normal is shifted.

2 - There is a LOT of rubbish out there, let's face it. People with no writing skills, and no real knowledge of what they are writing about, pouring out junk. It doesn't sell (because it is poor quality), so they reduce the price, over and over. As before this means that in the eye of the consumer the price of normal is now lower.

I still believe though that a REALLY good product WILL sell for a decent price. A simple step like providing a short sample of your writing, for example, so buyers can see that this really IS a good product. Having genuine testimonies, from recognised people (ie, with links to websites so buyers can see they exist etc), and being TOTALLY honest in the presentation of the product.

Adobe still sell Photoshop for the same price, despite there being good free alternatives like The Gimp. Same with Microsoft Windows and Linux, or Office and OpenOffice. People WILL pay for quality etc. (I am not saying that Gimp, Linux or OpenOffice are not good quality, btw, they are all excellent products, but their existance does not invalidate sales for the 'expensive' alternatives, it may well have dented them, but people are clearly still buying from companies they trust to deliver quality, heh)

The rubbish will get cheaper, but the quality stuff will float to the top - at least I hope so!

When I was 13 years old.. I started my first computer tech business..
If people had any kind of computer problems.. they'd call me up..
And I'd either ask them to pick me up (cuz I couldn't drive lol)

Or would see if I could get my mummy to do it.


After I finished the job.. I'd slap them with a bill.. and even back then.. my prices were DOUBLE what most grown ass adults would charge.

How could I justify charging those absurd prices?

I did a dang good job... that's how I could justify it.

I had great service. I fixed alot of mistakes that other people couldn't, and I made it a fun experience.. and because of that, people gladly paid me my exorbant rates.


RARELY would anyone EVER argue with me about my prices or say I was charging too much..

If they did.. It was real simple..

I'd say... "Look, here's this person's #. feel free to give him a call next time. He charges alot less than I do. you're right... and who knows.. you might be able to find someone who'se even cheaper.. but you know what they say.. You get what you pay for..

If he makes the problem worse, can't fix it, or gives you a headache.. don't say I didn't tell you so "


So to answer your question..

How do we sell a $47 ebook and compete with a $5 ebook on amazon?

WE DON'T!

For the same exact reason that I didn't try to compete with guys that were charging $17/hour for computer work...


You hit the nail on the head when you said your income will reflect the value you give.. BINGO.


Don't compete with them. Give more value. Give a unique edge to your stuff. Have a fun contageous personallity that nobody can compete with.. and that people want to be around.. and then charge whatever the heck you want!


Everything that's been sold can be found for free, at a cheaper price, or can be done themselves...

so what?

The cure for cancer is probably lurking somewhere on the internet.. out in the open.. FOR FREE... but do you know where it is?

How much time would it take for you to find it? How long would it take you to weed out the junk from the gems?

Let's say the cure for cancer was eating carrots and having an alkaline diet.. which is info that could be found for free on the net..

but if you were on your deathbed right now... and I told you that.. and helped save your life.. would you not gladly pay me $10,000 for that gem?


So if you or anyone else is trying to 'sell an E-book' for $47 and finding it harder to do so.. that's your first problem.

You're trying to sell an EBOOK!

I don't sell e-books.

I sell experiences. I sell results. I sell you the solution to something that you desperately have been searching for and that up until now no one has been able to give you..

And thats why i can charge ya whatever I want

Hmmm...All i know is that at $7 a pop i would have to make 100 sales day at least. Or I can charge $100 a pop and only have to make 7 sales day

And 7 sales a day is easy, and easily comes into the remit in the bolded part above. Im after those less people that can afford it. Their better customers, less pressure on the support side. Ask for fewer refunds and are generally easier to deal with

So all in all you can have the 100 customers a day and i will take the 7 a day

Might have to disagree with you on this point. Every day heaps of new and interesting things are created, conceived and offered. screenr is just one example of a cool thing I would not have found had someone not mentioned it in a cheap WSO. Cheap for me is less than twenty bucks. It will easily save a lot of time for anyone who wants to get a quick message across without difficult video editing.

If on our travels we come across something really cool which we think would help others and we put together a report on how it can save you time, money, frustration or (gods forbid) make money, wouldn't that be worth paying something to find out about? Obviously you know a lot about the internet and marketing because you've been around so long but shouldn't it be ok if people can help other people out for a few bucks?

I can think of lots of great tips that I'd have paid at least $5.00 for that would have saved me hours and days. I still can not find a good complete How To ebook, manual (whatever) showing me how to rebuild a quadrajet carb but as soon as someone does I'll be paying $20 for sure. I wasted weeks and months trying to put together all the information I needed and in the end I wasn't sure if I was doing it right.

Price and quality are not always matched. Just because something is cheap does not mean it has no value. Not sure if you were being serious or joking but...

Just saying...

Good point Don,

Except for the fact that those $5 to $7 products sold as WSOs to get customers on our list for future products at higher prices doesn't logically make sense. I mean... If people only buy the "cheap" products because of the economy through WSO's... will those same bargain hunters really pay for a more expensive product later? Or will they instead search for something similar as another WSO?

One thing I believe we can attain from inexpensive (I prefer that to cheap) product sales as a WSO is if in fact the product is of quality... the buyers could easily be channeled into an affiliate position for future sales of the same product. At least I hope that happens!
Suellen

Again with the low price = bad quality. This is just not true of low price. Lots of extremely high quality things are sold at low prices.

90%! Wow that's a lot! Did you buy them all and these are your averages? Or are you just guessing? If you did you must have bought all the really bad ones and I would ask for my money back. I'm guessing you left negative feedback so the rest of us can know which of them are so bad as to earn your scorn.

Going on my experience (I have bought dozens) I would say that maybe 10% are a "bit" thin and 100% taught me something useful enough to make them worth while. Never found one so bad as to ask for a refund. I'm sure there's a few but the negative reviews should point those out fairly quickly so thanks for doing that. I'm sure it will help us isolate the bad ones from the good ones.


Says...?

...and these people are new to the planet? Or new to IM? Or new to WF? "New" meaning they are completely worthless authors who could not possibly have anything of value to add? Please.

Wait, within 3 months a new member is making a wage out of IM and this is a bad thing?! I see this is a fantastic and glowing testamony to exactly why this place is so freaking great. Where else can someone change their lives totally in 3 months to the point where they made themselves a job? Not only that but they have taken the time to stop and show others how they did it. Congratulations to that person for showing many exactly how possible it is! Well done I say!

You "counted" or you bought and can speak on their quality? If you bought them and they were so bad I hope you left a negative comment so that others don't follow. You did buy them - right?

And since when is 3,500 copies at $9 a business failure? I wonder why they sold 3,500? That sounds like a resounding vote of confidence unless you are saying that 3,500 of us are dumber than spuds. Is that what you're saying? 3,500 were stupid and ignorant people not capable of making a value judgement?

More supermen flying in to save us from ourselves. Newbs are not from another planet. They make decisions based on what they need. If they buy an irrelevant WSO I'm sure they learned something and if it was so bad they should ask for a refund. I see no one who needs "protecting" here. We are all grown adults for the most part. We are all capable of making our own decisions on what's good for us and what isn't and no one is being "preyed on" here.

Good luck to them! The more the merrier. Since when was it possible to have too much information available? 100% of educational institutions encourage gathering information as a way to become more educated. If they have something valuable to add let them release one every day. Frequency is not an indicator or quality.

You're "starting to think" they are re-written PLR eBooks? You mean you didn't buy them? How do you know? Do you know? If they are I'm sure the mods would like to know - better show them your evidence.

"None of...?" "All of...?" "...EVER?" "...None of it...? Wow you must have done a LOT of testing. Or is this just speculation or guessing? Because such sweeping and damned generalisations really don't mean anything unless you can back it up with examples or experience and personal testing.

Ok, now these you can comment on because you bought them (I presume) and I hope you left a clear feedback on the thread warning the newbies (that you want to protect) - right?

No, it's not. For the most part I have bought nothing but great quality tips, full blown courses, extremely interesting and thorough video walk throws (that have saved me hours of frustration and revealed great shortcuts) and really good advice on how to save time and money and in many cases make money from ideas I would never have thought of myself. I thank WF for WSOs and hope they get cheaper and I hope the vendors sell more and help more people.

I think a lot of people are talking from rumour and innuendo-based hysteria which is clearly rarely based on personal experience and with a WSO love/hate/jealousy thing going on (that is so conflicted) it's hard to determine what the motives are. Mine are clear and obvious. I love 'em. Can't get enough. I have learned so much I can barely contain my amazement.

If you bought a WSO that was such bad value for the (measly) price that you were truly disgusted and you know for sure will not work then you can or else you yourself are perpetuating the very thing you seem to despise.

I am stunned at how many people use damaging generalisations plucked out of thin air not based on any facts or personal experience and that people would deny another person success just because they were new to something. There's a name for that.

Inexpensive does NOT mean "cheap and nasty and dirty". I see most magazines I buy in my offline hobby (hot rods) priced exactly in the range of most WSOs. Does that mean all the magazines are crap just because they are priced at $9.00? Of course not.

The mistaken view that "inexpensive = bad quality" has no basis in fact generally and certainly is not proved in this arena. In fact the opposite is true. The cheaper these get the BETTER value they are (providing the quality is good and they do what they say). I don't mind buying an idea or a theory if I know that's what I'm buying but if I'm buying a walk through and it's not a walk through or I buy a blueprint for a specific method and it's not a blueprint on a certain method or I buy a pack of graphics and I get an empty zip file...then sure I'll complain. I'll ask for a refund and I'll leave a comment warning others. But that's never happened to me.

Apart from that, I'm happy if things get cheaper (like every human on the planet) because then more people will buy them and it will be easier for me to meet my income target. I wonder why people are complaining about when there is no scientific evidence to point to such claims of poor quality. None. And even if there were, refund and negative feedback to warn others creates a system of market driven balances.

If you have a system that is so good that is virtually guarantees income then you can easily charge accordingly and the market will pay (for obvious reasons) anything else is just a "hand", a brochure, the low-down, the skinny but most are good solid information that creates income for the seller and great value for the buyer and I just have not seen any evidence of anything else.

I'm sorry to upset those who clearly really want WSOs to be bad quality - it just ain't true and I have seen no evidence supporting that view presented here.

I don't think I said ALL gurus put out garbage. I mentioned courses I purchased that helped me a lot. It is just much harder to shell out hundreds of dollars on a course from a guru if you have been less than happy with a couple of products in a row.

You made a good point about those that churn out a new WSO each week or so. I have purchased WSOs from some of them and, for the most part, have been disappointed. Still, not as disappointed as if I had paid $67 or $200, let alone $2,000.

Face it, looking at WSOs is not the same as attending a Perry Marshall event. Picking up a pair of jeans at WalMart is not the same as picking out a suit at Saks. If you create $2,000 products and can sell them, great. I may even purchase one if it fits my needs. But, I still wear jeans.


DTaylor

Wow. How did you manage to unintentionally spell "dollar" 3 different ways in the span of 15 words? That's impressive.

Okay, so.... I will chime in.

I actually have read through all two pages of the thread. Lots of good points made on both sides by a lot of people.

I really think it comes down to what your business model is.

My business model is offering Hotsheets - short reports that are low-priced but don't have any fluff and they are highly actionable. You can take one of my IM Hotsheets and use them to make money - a full-time, scalable business - for a very small investment.

I have said it before and I'm sure I will be saying it again: I price my Hotsheets so that a single mom doesn't have to choose between buying one of my products and paying for groceries or diapers.

That doesn't mean I'm never going to offer a product that's higher priced. It also doesn't mean that offer garbage - my Hotsheets are a good quality and unique ideas/twists on ideas.

It's also a business model that I use outside of the Internet marketing niche - low-priced Hotsheets that give good information and are basically "impulse buys."

I make up the difference in volume. Always.

I also don't send a whole bunch of offers to my lists, either. I let them know when I have a new Hotsheet coming out, and every so often I will let them know about a special offer and send an affiliate link. (When I say "every so often" - that translates to about once every two months.)

I also don't offer every Hotsheet as a WSO. I have some that are only available through my list and/or my website. IMHO, a WSO is just that - a product offered at a special rate to Warriors. A "Special Offer." Running WSO after WSO after WSO isn't a business, IMHO. I run WSO's to help introduce new people to my products, but most of my income comes from my lists.

Again, this is my business model. You don't have to do the same thing I do. You don't have to think I'm doing it the right way.

All I know is that I am finding this to be a very profitable business model - and if it ain't broke I ain't fixing it.

JMHO and YMMV

I agree with you that it depends but I disagree that a 100 page report with bonuses is automatically worth more than a 1 page report.

What if the 1 page report told you actual locations of buried treasure around the world (treasure map) and the 100 page report taught you how to find a job?

I would venture to say the 1 page report is worth way more.

Richard Wing
623-505-6302
skype - richardwing

Let me guess, a "freegan" is a different breed of Bogan right?

You've summed up my thoughts on this whole topic; it's a branch out on my current business model that I've been considering.

"Self-liquidating"... yes, and there's a key there - it must pay for itself! No subsidies allowed - that's what Governments do, not smart business people. I get real curious sometimes when I see just how much people 'spend' on advertising in the hope of making more sales.

Truth is, if your $7 product can't make back the $40 post fee and the additional WSO pro fees (if you use it), then you need either (1) better sales copy or (2) better product.

Of course, you could always do what Robert suggested way back on the first page - ditch it, and move on.

That's smart.

So the big question is... do you have friends that don't have that $5 mentality list? I love the great feedback this thread has gotten. It should be a sticky!

This is quite possibly the most important sentence in this entire thread.

Russ, OMG! ::

Sal, just had to pull this quote out - perfect!

Wow, thanks for the share Mike.

Truly magnanimous of you to do so. No wonder you enjoy the success that you do.

Quick question... do you believe that the consumer is more savvy these days, making it harder to over inflate prices?

Sal

Thanks for such a thoughtful post Mike. I agree with all of your points.

Remember the definition of a commodity: a product (or service) that's perceived by the customer as no different from any other product (in its category) and therefore, price becomes the driving factor. It becomes a race to the bottom, with no money left for marketing, service or investing in any type of R&D.

Just to clarify, I wasn't saying that just because you're selling a low-priced product, you're in the commodity business and or leaving a lot of money on the table. And selling a low-priced product certainly isn't a bad thing just because it's low-priced. Selling at low prices and making it up in volume is a valid business model. (You can't argue with the success of Walmart.)

I'm a economics/marketing major and I LOVED my maco- and micro-economics classes. I know that any time you lower the price, you effectively increase your market and demand (which is way cool).

Shay makes money selling low-priced products to moms (who don't have a lot of money). That's more a great example of excellent target marketing (which dictates the price levels) though.

I hope I'm saying it in a way that makes sense. In no way did I mean that selling low-priced items or services is a bad thing (or you should do everything you can to increase your prices or always sell at a premium price). My comments were aimed at those who are selling their products and services at bargain-basement prices because they feel pressured by the competition and their prices. So they keep lowering their prices (without changing anything else, like their marketing strategy or overall business strategy) and end up going under.

Even if you DO sell a commodity product, there a lot of ways to maintain your prices or even raise them, if it's warranted. (Adding service is a great way to maintain your prices even if your competitors are lowering theirs.)

I agree with all of your points. In the end, every person's situation is different. Your prices will be dictated by your business model, your target market, your costs, your goals, etc. None of it is bad if you've got a successful, sustainable business.

Michelle

Nice post. Agree with pretty much everything. Rather than a tit for tat argument about price points etc... You have given us a timely reminder about anfew basics.

Hi, nice to meet you, Rich.

First of all, the WSO forum is not the only marketplace for info products. It's not even the largest. You can still EASILY sell $47 products all day long. The market hasn't changed, the percentages of what type of customers you have in which places has changed, though.

It hasn't changed locations, the concentrations and quality of customers have shifted. There are more low-quality customers on the WSO forum because there are A LOT more people on the forum than there used to be. There are a lot more PEOPLE in the IM niche than before. And just like in the real world, the larger sample of the population you take, the dumber and lower quality people you get.

But the issue is that people give away EVERYTHING THEY HAVE for the "Try me" price.

If the car dealership down the street cut all their prices down to 10% of the value of what those cars were worth, do you think they would get more customers? Yes, I think they would. Does that make it a good business decision? Absolutely not. Is it good to have a SLIVER of your value available at a "lower" price than what you actually aim to sell? Sure. Do you have to pants yourself for the people who demand you do? Nope.

NEXT....

If you're running for President and you're not yet at the point where you're campaigning for votes, but instead are trying to get the money to run... do you want to talk to as MANY people as possible? Or do you want to focus all your time and attention on the few people who can give you the biggest contributions?

And you've hit the nail on the head here, because the majority of the people using the "LOW PRICE!!!!" technique to sell really don't know any salesmanship at all. THE ONLY way they can sell is by competing on price and they aren't smart or experienced enough to know that it's small potatoes to focus on that to the exclusion of all else.

That's not why it is the way it is in the WSO forum right now.

I know. I write some of that stuff for a living. I will tell you a secret. The "free" content is NOT the same stuff that you would get in a course. The free stuff is engineered pre-selling material. All I'm doing is tricking you into reading/watching a sales letter that doesn't look like a sales letter. The high end guys know how to give away a SLIVER of their value for low (or zero) price because they know how to make it PROVE the high price they will ask for later. The majority of people using the "LOW PRICE!!!!" strategy have no idea how to do that.

I would argue that the fact people know these gurus have multi-thousand dollar products attached to their names is WHY people want their free stuff and WHY they actually pay attention to it vs. buying to collect and hoard cheap info. They also are not EVER demanding the gurus give them an automated money machine that spits out cash. They have too much "respect" for them. Why? Because of the premium positioning that exists before they EVER try to give away something free or sell something cheap.

It absolutely is. It also matters how many different price points you serve at the time the enter the funnel, and how many of those face the public. If I want to sell you a $47 e-book and you have no idea who I am, you may not value it.

If you happen to know that I sell consulting for $250 an hour, suddenly that same product has a different cast. The cheapskate customer is going to whine that my $47 e-book is not $5. The customer I want is going to KNOW it's a deal and perceive it that way.

Now let's say later on I DO create a $5 report later. The same cheapskate is going to EXPECT the $47 level of value for the $5. The latter kind of customer will probably get the $5 report and will have much more accurate expectations set.

Yes, a HIGH-QUALITY customer can enter your funnel at any price point. But a LOW-QUALITY customer will ONLY enter your funnel if you give them what they want. Which is everything for nothing. Too many people aim their entire business at capturing that guy. And they never even find out what other kind of customers they have because "my customers only want to buy $5 products" or whatever the excuse.

Just because you CAN get refunders for expensive products in no way dismisses the fact that lower priced products tend to attract more serial refunders. A thing to point out is that no one has said more LEGIT refunds. Low priced products bring the kind of low quality buyers that are serial refunders. You get less irresponsible consumers at higher price points.

If the VALUE of the product matches the price, fine. You should not be selling products that are worth hundreds for $10. If you're talking about a 10 page report? Cool. A 10 minute video? Cool. If you can't OVER deliver value in that amount in a $7 product, you have issues.

I think you are just making this up, because a $5000 range is not an "average" - sure, you COULD get a huge lifetime value out of a $7 customer. But you will get a HIGHER lifetime value out of a $27 or $47 customer. Especially if you are positioned to appeal to people who can tell the $47 is a discounted PIECE of your larger offering and buy it ANYWAY.

If these are the kind of affiliates who won't promote products that cost more than $20 EVER, you can find a lot better affiliates. Like I said, conversions SUCK on most promos I work on. 100,000 people might look at the offer and only 1000 buy. 1% - but if the product costs $2500... And you get a list of 30K new leads from affiliates who ALSO sell $2K products... I dunno. I know which I'd rather work on when it's the exact same amount of work.

Then by all means, keep it up! But considering the experience I have and the work I do, I wouldn't think you would want to say my points are "ridiculous" - I do know a little bit about a little bit. Sometimes.

I'm not seeing a lot of difference in the distinction you made ... there are treasures to be found at garage sales as well. With both you have to sift through "another man's trash" to find your treasure.

Everyone need a reminder now and then, and y/w.

Not really. The good majority will hardly even do a double opt-in, let alone bother to email you for support.

I guess for the POWER WSO sellers it's probably a different story, but then their WSO's aren't $7 either.

I definitely agree though that the standard here has been set so LOW.

Shay, for a lot of the people who collect low-priced WSOs, this is exactly the same type of thing. There are tons of people in love with the idea of IM, but not doing IM. So they collect more products, they read them, then go buy another one. Studying IM is a hobby for them, their ardent protests to the contrary. It's entertainment.

And sometimes, those folks will jump up and buy a $17, $27 or even $47 product. But then they are back to their regular $7 "Snickers bar" products. M&M/Mars makes a fortune selling Snickers bars. You make good money selling your Hotsheets. You've nailed down the market niche you want to serve.

At the same time, my local Denny's has a steak dinner on the menu. It's the most expensive item on the menu at ~$14. When I think "steak dinner", I don't think Denny's. I think Shula's.

I acquired my taste for Shula's by taking advantage of their lunch time specials, meant to lure in busy professionals with a limited menu (~8 items) at lower prices (~$12 for a prime rib lunch plate with garlic mashed potatoes and veg).

They're both successful models, but Denny's is never going to be able to charge $40 for a steak dinner. Shula's can charge $12 for a prime rib lunch plate and still get that $40 tab all night long - often from the same people.

Same as when you're ready to splurge, you look for Godiva, not M&M/Mars...

You're not thinking.

Let's say I have seven different ways to make money.

I try one each day for a week.

I look at which ones worked and which ones didn't, then try to fix them so they'll work better.

I try the improved ones each day for a week.

I continue this for a few more weeks. Like, say, six.

Eventually, I converge on the reality that only two of these methods work, and that my list is too small to make much money from them.

What do you think? Is what I know about this worth money to someone who has - or can build - a big list?

Hell yes.

So why shouldn't I have that money?

Sean, I don't think we've met, but you have a good head on your shoulders. Look me up on Skype sometime.

Now here's a couple of points I want to make, re your excellent post.

No, definitely not. but you've pointed out the snake-eating-its-own-tail that's happening in this particular place. They say "I have succeeded at selling a WSO. Here is my product about selling a WSO." People buy it and succeed at selling their own WSO... but GUESS what that WSO will be about?

I agree that you shouldn't position yourself as an expert in something you're not. The main issue with newbies as that they don't realize this is NOT the only selling position possible inside IM (or any niche for that matter). There are lots of things to sell, even in IM that are NOT "make money" propositions, but merely "how to do stuff better". How to be more productive, how to work faster, how to set up things, how to use software, etc. etc.

And you don't need to be an "expert" either - in fact, I've found that in most cases, you can build a better, more loyal audience from INSIDE a given herd as one of them than you can from OUTSIDE the herd as a "guru". With IM as an example, if you are learning it, RECORD your process of learning. Share what you find, promote what you're buying and liked. When you display movement and forward progress, people who see themselves in you will follow, even though you're not saying "HEY, I'M A LEADER, FOLLOW ME!"

So yes, I agree, but I wanted to add that while faking-until-making is bad, the solution is NOT to go out and "make it" before you're allowed to sell anything. There are a lot easier and less stressful ways to make waves in any market.

Agree - it's supposed to be Warrior Special Offers - implying that SOMEWHERE ELSE there is this same stuff as a REGULAR offer. If you can't sell stuff anywhere else, then you suck. Plain and simple.

If the only place you can sell is here, and the only way you can make the people here buy stuff is with sub-$10 pricetags, and the only way you can get people to promote is with 100% instant commission, then you suck.

(Note: you can get better from sucking - you just have to broaden your horizons. Just because you suck now doesn't mean you have to suck forever.)

Totally agree. The market believes what you tell them about the value of your product.

One of the most WONDERFUL things about selling information is that the value is totally malleable. Context is everything - a piece of info from a newbie nobody is worthless, the same info from a respected expert is gold. But on the web we can CREATE our own context.

YOU take the first step in doing that when you slap the price tag on your products. YOU decide what you want it to sell for, and you use added value and justification in the sales copy to "sell" that price to your customers.

If you let the market dictate to you what the prices are - SURPRISE! They will go down, down, down. And if that's what your competitors are doing, and you let your competitors dictate to you how you set your prices, you go down, down, down.

If you were selling something that had a solid, actual value like a real-world commodity, OK. You might be bound by those forces. But this is information. Decide what context you want to sell from so you can get the prices you want. It's very VERY easy to out-justify a lower priced product and charge more for yours.

And if a given customer STILL goes for the lower price when yours is justifiable better? Let em. That's a low-price addicted, low quality customer. That buyer will have zero loyalty to you, and zero respect for your expertise and will always chase the cheaper option. You want people who UNDERSTAND value and don't use price alone as their buying metric.

Amen. There's nothing wrong with "getting money" but it's a lot better long term to "make money".