Seriously hate OTO after WSO these days

14 years ago

I seriously HATE OTO altogether...

I know it is internet marketing and vendors see it as a way to up increase sales and yes it is proven to work... still it p***** me off. It's an insult to intelligence very often... "oh it is so cheap you cant possibly NOT buy it after you already bought the initial offering and if you do then you are dumb as ****"

yeah well I dont buy products to prove to myself I aint an idiot and if you try to sell them to me as if I am then I will tell you where to get off

Just an opinion

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Focused Action

14 years ago

It is called good marketing used by smart people trying to maximize their profit - nothing wrong with that! Annoying sometimes yes, but certainly smart.

I agree though about the ones have 5 OTO's and exit scripts that you can barely get out of the funnel.

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Rough Outline

14 years ago

Whilst it will definitely annoy some people, it will definitely work on others, therefore the product creators will still keep using them. No two ways about it.

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Leslie B

14 years ago

What I hate are people complaining about things that are normal when it comes to running a business. When you sell a "loss leader" (which is what a WSO is) you don't intend to profit from the WSO, or at least not alone, you intend to make the most profit, by getting people into your salesfunnel and selling other of your products to them.

It's normal in any business, whether you're a supermarket, a clothing store, or an internet business. If you don't like it, don't buy it, nobody is forcing your hand. But at least don't complain about MARKETING tactics on a MARKETING forum.

Leslie

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Shaun OReilly 14 years ago

OTOs can be applied skillfully or unskillfully.

It depends upon the marketer who applies them and
the interpretation of the customer on the other end
as to whether the OTO 'works' or not.

Not all OTOs are good and not all OTOs are bad.

It comes down to the execution.

Most complaints arise because there are too many
IMers who are using a proven strategy in a very
unskillful way.

Same with upsells and exit-pops.

Learn how to use the tool and know when and how
to apply it effectively is key.

Dedicated to mutual success,

Shaun
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Neromancer

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Leslie B

What I hate are people complaining about things that are normal when it comes to running a business. When you sell a "loss leader" (which is what a WSO is) you don't intend to profit from the WSO, or at least not alone, you intend to make the most profit, by getting people into your salesfunnel and selling other of your products to them.

It's normal in any business, whether you're a supermarket, a clothing store, or an internet business. If you don't like it, don't buy it, nobody is forcing your hand. But at least don't complain about MARKETING tactics on a MARKETING forum.

Leslie

LOL well. . . Starbucks is this way >>>>>> Thanks for this.

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MattVit

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Leslie B

What I hate are people complaining about things that are normal when it comes to running a business. When you sell a "loss leader" (which is what a WSO is) you don't intend to profit from the WSO, or at least not alone, you intend to make the most profit, by getting people into your salesfunnel and selling other of your products to them.

It's normal in any business, whether you're a supermarket, a clothing store, or an internet business. If you don't like it, don't buy it, nobody is forcing your hand. But at least don't complain about MARKETING tactics on a MARKETING forum.

Leslie

Awesome post. Why didn't this thread end here?

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Tim Franklin

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Leslie B
What I hate are people complaining about things that are normal when it comes to running a business. When you sell a "loss leader" (which is what a WSO is) you don't intend to profit from the WSO, or at least not alone, you intend to make the most profit, by getting people into your salesfunnel and selling other of your products to them.

It's normal in any business, whether you're a supermarket, a clothing store, or an internet business. If you don't like it, don't buy it, nobody is forcing your hand. But at least don't complain about MARKETING tactics on a MARKETING forum.

Leslie
Awesome post. Why didn't this thread end here?

I would say that the reason is very straight forward, not everyone sees a WSO as a sales funnel, We are Warriors, not consumers and I think that is what some people are objecting to is being treated like sheeple.

In fact most of us see it as a Warrior Special Offer, which means that for the most part a WSO should not be treated as a sales funnel, it should be just what it says that it is a Warrior Special Offer, where users are treated as equals, that is what the WSO process should be about but a lot of people think that the WSO section is now anything goes, and that is not what a lot of sellers are treating it as, and that is why people have opinions, sometimes you may not like what other people have to say,

Warriors like Special offers because it is expected that we will be getting something that is not available to others who are not warriors, when you look at it that way all this sales funnel stuff takes on a different light.

That is what people are talking about here.

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Istvan Horvath

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Tim Franklin

I would say that the reason is very straight forward, not everyone sees a WSO as a sales funnel, We are Warriors, not consumers and I think that is what some people are objecting to is being treated like sheeple.

In fact most of us see it as a Warrior Special Offer, which means that for the most part a WSO should not be treated as a sales funnel, it should be just what it says that it is a Warrior Special Offer, where users are treated as equals, that is what the WSO process should be about but a lot of people think that the WSO section is now anything goes, and that is not what a lot of sellers are treating it as, and that is why people have opinions, sometimes you may not like what other people have to say,

Warriors like Special offers because it is expected that we will be getting something that is not available to others who are not warriors, when you look at it that way all this sales funnel stuff takes on a different light.

That is what people are talking about here.

Tim,

I agree with you and I expressed not once similar opinion in different threads... It seems, especially, for old-timers, that was the "image" of the WSO section - and many would like to keep it as it was.

However, whether we like it or not, the WSO section is not what it used to be. It, simply, became a marketplace for digital products (mainly in the MMO niche) and people from far and wide coming to sell their products - not caring ever about the rest of the forum and the community around it.

Not only sellers. I have had affiliate requests for my last wso from people whose only "activity" in the forum is to comment on wso threads... never adding anything valuable to this forum. (Yes, I denied their request because I don't know them and don't trust them!)

As much as I don't like it, we have to learn to live with it.

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Andy Fletcher

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Tim Franklin

I would say that the reason is very straight forward, not everyone sees a WSO as a sales funnel, We are Warriors, not consumers and I think that is what some people are objecting to is being treated like sheeple.

In fact most of us see it as a Warrior Special Offer, which means that for the most part a WSO should not be treated as a sales funnel, it should be just what it says that it is a Warrior Special Offer, where users are treated as equals, that is what the WSO process should be about but a lot of people think that the WSO section is now anything goes, and that is not what a lot of sellers are treating it as, and that is why people have opinions, sometimes you may not like what other people have to say,

Warriors like Special offers because it is expected that we will be getting something that is not available to others who are not warriors, when you look at it that way all this sales funnel stuff takes on a different light.

That is what people are talking about here.

I don't really understand why it can't be both.

I offer heavy discounts on all my plugins through the WSO forum in the time honoured tradition of giving warriors a great offer on my best stuff but that doesn't mean I don't cross sell the other plugins if they but a first one ... and I make that cross sell offer at a big discount too.

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Tim Franklin

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Andy Fletcher

I don't really understand why it can't be both.

I offer heavy discounts on all my plugins through the WSO forum in the time honored tradition of giving warriors a great offer on my best stuff but that doesn't mean I don't cross sell the other plugins if they but a first one ... and I make that cross sell offer at a big discount too.

I agree, I think over the last couple of months that there have been a few WSOs that were sort of pushing the edge of the envelope, and you know I really do appreciate offers that are related and offer a good savings as well, at the risk of posting too much in one thread, (sorry if anyone is offended) but I purchase a lot of WSOs, and so I have seen a lot of the back end offers, so when this thread came up and I saw a lot of people humping the poor buyers, legs here it sort of irritated me because in essence we are the customers not sheeple and not consumers, but customers, and when someone, (not you) but when others come on here and basically attack customers for having an opinion on all the hoops they have to jump through to get a product, then that is why I have a strong opinion on this subject.

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Anonymous Affiliate

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Leslie B

What I hate are people complaining about things that are normal when it comes to running a business. When you sell a "loss leader" (which is what a WSO is) you don't intend to profit from the WSO, or at least not alone, you intend to make the most profit, by getting people into your salesfunnel and selling other of your products to them.

It's normal in any business, whether you're a supermarket, a clothing store, or an internet business. If you don't like it, don't buy it, nobody is forcing your hand. But at least don't complain about MARKETING tactics on a MARKETING forum.

Leslie

THANK YOU Leslie. At least someone who understands what a sales funnel and front-end offer is, and how marketing works.

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Bigdadda

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Leslie B

What I hate are people complaining about things that are normal when it comes to running a business. When you sell a "loss leader" (which is what a WSO is) you don't intend to profit from the WSO, or at least not alone, you intend to make the most profit, by getting people into your salesfunnel and selling other of your products to them.

It's normal in any business, whether you're a supermarket, a clothing store, or an internet business. If you don't like it, don't buy it, nobody is forcing your hand. But at least don't complain about MARKETING tactics on a MARKETING forum.

Leslie

Just because it's a "MARKETING tactic" doesn't mean it's beyond reproach on a MARKETING forum. The problems I see with OTOs are the way they are handled - ie, the misrepresentations about them being "one" time offers, false scarcity elements built into them, etc. Frankly, I think it's dumb to alienate a segment of potential buyers because of some short sighted belief that everyone does it so it must be ok. Marketing tactics should be viewed as a means to an end - which is the sale. If more sales can be achieved using tactics that are less alienating, then it is smart to employ those less alienating tactics. For instance, why not have multiple, upfront offers: the product and then the product + upgrade? You don't alienate customers fed up with OTO's and you get additional sales if your offer is decent. It's not rocket science.

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Rick Britton

14 years ago

my offline business is in complementary medicine. If I treated my clients in this way then I am sure they would soon leave my practice but IMers think they can treat customers like this willy-nilly

sure they make money from it

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Tim_Carter

14 years ago

Originally Posted by JudoRick

my offline business is in complementary medicine. If I treated my clients in this way then I am sure they would soon leave my practice but IMers think they can treat customers like this willy-nilly

sure they make money from it

What - you never try and sell them more stuff if it would compliment what they buy?

This is good business practice. If you aren't doing it you should be.

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AdwordsMogul

14 years ago

Originally Posted by JudoRick

my offline business is in complementary medicine. If I treated my clients in this way then I am sure they would soon leave my practice but IMers think they can treat customers like this willy-nilly

sure they make money from it

Treat customers like what? Don't forget that the business must make the maximum possible profit.

If you're not interested in the OTO, just don't buy it - big deal!!!

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MatthewNeer 14 years ago

While you may hate it, marketers love it! And there is nothing wrong wit OTO. Its how business has been run for thousands of years and its how it will continue to do so for thousands more.

Just make sure you only buy the good stuff
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lotusdragon

14 years ago

Originally Posted by JudoRick

my offline business is in complementary medicine. If I treated my clients in this way then I am sure they would soon leave my practice but IMers think they can treat customers like this willy-nilly sure they make money from it

Hi Rick, I work in a similar field so understand where you are coming from.

To me it shows why there is such difference in attitudes here.
Do you find most in complementary medicine entered into it to be of service, perhaps because they saw it helped someone. I see there are both vocational and careerist health practitioners, including Drs.
My point being that some people are looking to make a living through being of service, whereas some people are focused on making money.

Personally I usually do not like OTO's because they are OTO's, though a few are related to the original price and are complimentary to the product.
Point is, though my brain does the maths on the original product and price that was figured into my budget in my brain, it is really thrown by OTO's and I lose a grasp on my budgeting skills :confused:. I do not want to do that to another it can be really dangerous to their financial health.

I see it is often hidden and manipulative

, and you are made to feel bad about walking away from it

, so it is not so easy as some here say and with some it can become like a gambling addiction and cause serious debt

. Not to the tougher cookies here maybe, they know they can walk away and it's probably more those who are disinclined to do OTO's who are the most vulnerable to them.

I question why we can not explore other models, who is dictating it must be this way, why are we not using techniques that do not lose us the respect of our customers. All my friends do not buy from people who use OTO's or upsells, they immediately lose respect for the person or company or friend who passed it to them

,
I very much doubt I know the only people on the planet who feel this way.

I hear many here say, why can they not be offered on the front page
beside the WSO

, why does there have to be manipulation involved

,
I do not see why we can not discuss other ways of giving incentives.

It seems to me that many marketers treat it almost like a religion,
the way they defend these practices and slap down anyone who dares question them, how is that good business.
Does not customers views come into the equation of good business practice.
Do surveys and see how many customers actually like them.
How many customers leave a list because of them.
Chasing new customers is surely more labour intensive than keeping happy loyal customers who trust you, so buy from you.

I'd like to see a thread on developing other models, it would be great to see folk who care about it there. You do not have to hate OTO's just not hate folk who want to find innovative ways to keep a customer happy whilst still giving them incentives to action on further purchases.
I already have designed some different models to use myself, it would be great to have a mutual brainstorm though.

It seems folk who want to explore other ways are in the minority here though perhaps that is they dare not mention it, so lets get some moral support going and show you do not have to follow these dictated old grey hat :rolleyes: ways to define being a good marketer.
Do unto others as you wish to be done unto, seems the best of sense to me.
May the Force be with you.

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Chri5123

14 years ago

Yes this is just part of business - it CAN be annoying just like adverts on TV every 2 mins, or competitions popping up with "What is the capital city of France?" A. Berlin B. London C. Paris questions.

Also works off the principle that alot of the chocolate bar sales come when you are at the checkout - same with overpriced TV magazines.

You can also grow to hate sales page with the red headline, smart sales copy etc.. but at the end of the day it works!

It is not made for people that are getting annoyed with it but for the thousands that will read it and in turn buy it.

In short this is part of "the business" it is not going away.

Chris Jones

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Focused Action

14 years ago

I don't understand the problem here - this is a MARKETING FORUM!!!!

Sure there are marketers who abuse the process with too many OTO's and multiple exit scripts but the best marketers use it right - here is a quality product for $7-$17, if you want expanded knowledge and tools, buy this, if not, download the product.

If everybody is so upset, the obviously solution is to not buy another product!

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thekaver

14 years ago

i dont mind the oto if its for a completely different product! as then you have a choice to take it or not!

but i hate the oto's that you need to buy in order to use the wso bought!

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HeySal

14 years ago

Originally Posted by thekaver

i dont mind the oto if its for a completely different product! as then you have a choice to take it or not!

but i hate the oto's that you need to buy in order to use the wso bought!

And that is why the point was made earlier - "Done right".

If you buy a product expecting it to be of value on it's own and don't find out until you have just purchased that you need something else -- that is not an ethical method being used. I'd hit the refund button fast - even if it made me suspect of just being a refunder if I did so. Offering something else that I might like is one thing, making me buy a second product to get value from a first is low, dishonest -- and I don't even want to see the first one if that is the case.

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Affiguy

14 years ago

If even marketers are outraged, then it is worth considering some other approach in promoting OTO.

Just my 5 cents)

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Andy Fletcher

14 years ago

OTOs aren't evil, only evil OTOs are evil!

Would you like fries with that? - Good cross sell

Would you like to go large for 30p? - Good upsell

Would you like the manual that you won't be able to assemble it without? - Evil upsell

Give your customers more of what they want in a way that makes them feel better and they'll love you.

Make them feel like the purchase they just made was a mistake and they'll hate you.

As an example from my own business selling Wordpress plugins.

We hardly ever get a complaint about the cross sells because they are all just "Thanks for buying, would you like a discount on this other plugin?"

For one of our offers, we got a slew of complaints and decided to dig into it.

It turns out we'd worded the cross sell sales page badly.

We thought we were saying, "Would you rather have this type of backlinks or this type? Don't worry, you can have both!"

Ie It's not an either/or thing you can have both and here's a discount to make it happen.

About 10% of customers read it as, "Your purchase won't work unless you have more/different backlinks GIVE US MONEY".

That sucks and we changed it.

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sloanjim

14 years ago

B*S*..how is a $5 to $19 report a loss leader?

"loss leader" (which is what a WSO is)

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sal64 14 years ago

^^ what she said ^^

loss leader does not have to make a loss. Most stores use it daily.

Duh!

Originally Posted by sloanjim

B*S*..how is a $5 to $19 report a loss leader?
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Leslie B

14 years ago

I took it up myself to look up the definition of loss leader:

A product or service sold at a substantial discount in order to generate additional sales.

So, that makes, in my eyes, a WSO a loss leader because I give a substantial discount and I intend to make make more sales from my sales funnel.

Leslie

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Ryan David

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Leslie B

I took it up myself to look up the definition of loss leader:

A product or service sold at a substantial discount in order to generate additional sales.

So, that makes, in my eyes, a WSO a loss leader because I give a substantial discount and I intend to make make more sales from my sales funnel.

Leslie

That's an interesting take. Because I looked up "loss leader" (because your definition didn't make much sense) and here's what the first 3 results said.

A loss leader or leader[1] is a product sold at a low price (at cost or below cost)[2] to stimulate other profitable sales.

A business strategy in which a business offers a product or service at a price that is not profitable for the sake of offering another product/service at a greater profit or to attract new customers.

Good or service advertised and sold at below cost price.

But in retail stores, the customer doesn't get short-changed because they bought a loss-leader. It's not like they buy a flat-screen TV without a plug and the store says "What'd you expect? That TV is a loss-leader for us"

Again, depends on how it was presented in relation to the original product.

And just because we're marketers, doesn't mean we can't complain about, what we perceive as, bad marketing.

After all, a common complaint on the forums is the "save a sale" scripts. People have no problem bashing those.

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Chris Worner

14 years ago

Marketers who hate being marketed to on a marketing forum....LMAO!

-Chris

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tpw 14 years ago

Originally Posted by Chris Worner

Marketers who hate being marketed to on a marketing forum....LMAO!

-Chris

It is along the same lines as people who want us to "buy their stuff", but think we should "give them our stuff for free!!"
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Janice Sperry

14 years ago

If you don't want the OTO it only takes .05 seconds to click away.

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AmandaT

14 years ago

I don't mind OTOs... what I hate are:

-OTOs that you need to make a product work.
-5 OTOs for one small product.
-OTOs that make it hard to find your way to your product.

If someone is offering a OTO that can help make the system better or enhance the system, that is great. I'm paying $10 for a system that can get me started making money. I'm okay with the fact they want to offer me an upgrade for $27 as long as the system they sold me to start with doesn't require it!

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Mary Wilhite

14 years ago

Originally Posted by AmandaT

I don't mind OTOs... what I hate are:

-OTOs that you need to make a product work.
-5 OTOs for one small product.
-OTOs that make it hard to find your way to your product.

If someone is offering a OTO that can help make the system better or enhance the system, that is great. I'm paying $10 for a system that can get me started making money. I'm okay with the fact they want to offer me an upgrade for $27 as long as the system they sold me to start with doesn't require it!

OTO's aren't bad. It's when the OTO's are used negatively that's when it becomes irritating.

however, using OTOs the right way is even beneficial, really.

OTOs should complement the product bought. It should not serve as the missing component on the original product.

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Sky Writer

14 years ago

Originally Posted by AmandaT

I don't mind OTOs... what I hate are:

-OTOs that you need to make a product work.
-5 OTOs for one small product.
-OTOs that make it hard to find your way to your product.

If someone is offering a OTO that can help make the system better or enhance the system, that is great. I'm paying $10 for a system that can get me started making money. I'm okay with the fact they want to offer me an upgrade for $27 as long as the system they sold me to start with doesn't require it!

I agree with Amanda. If the promo materials leave out the fact you need the OTO to get the benefits advertised, this is unfair marketing. Upfront disclosure is important in this case. And the prospective buyer should be very clear on what he/she is getting for the initial purchase price.

Some OTOs can also create trust issues where the buyer decides to never do business again with the seller. Often, I ignore future offers from sellers who don't play fair with their "as advertised benefits" and the OTO.

I would prefer that all sellers disclose if they have a OTO that is related to the product being advertised before I buy the first item. This is only fair.

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Tim Franklin

14 years ago

Well it depends, if the OTO is related to the original product, like additional rights, sometimes I would like to see enhanced product offers made and they are not made, and sometimes I just want the first product, but over all I really do not like this upsell and downsell like you see on some of the popular "Gurus" out there these days, one offer is enough, but if you show me three offers, I am going to get irritated.

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Rus Sells

14 years ago

Complaining about marketing on a marketing forum. IRONY! lol

These are tactics used in the business world and its because they work. Granted some do seem to go overboard!

You know you can just leave the page and deny all the pop ups giving you a cheaper price then before, until you finely get to the lowest price, then buy! Use it against them. = )

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Eduard Stinga

14 years ago

You don't get angry at McDonalds when the ~20 years old girl asks you "Would you like fries with that?", in fact, you actually say "No THANKS! - this example comes from a video in which it was very well explained, don't remember where I found it though.

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Andy Fletcher

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Eduard Stinga

You don't get angry at McDonalds when the ~20 years old girl asks you "Would you like fries with that?", in fact, you actually say "No THANKS! - this example comes from a video in which it was very well explained, don't remember where I found it though.

Speak for yourself. I say, "Yes please!"

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Leslie B

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Andy Fletcher

Speak for yourself. I say, "Yes please!"

Not if you don't like upsells :p

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Andy Fletcher

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Leslie B

Not if you don't like upsells :p

I now have the mental picture of myself yelling at a server at McD's, "How dare you try to sell me fries when I've just ordered a burger. Don't you realise marketing is evil."

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Mary Wilhite

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Andy Fletcher

I now have the mental picture of myself yelling at a server at McD's, "How dare you try to sell me fries when I've just ordered a burger. Don't you realise marketing is evil."

LOL Andy.

That's a good one.

However, when McD offers a combo meal they do include everything promised and won't give you an incomplete meal, for example they won't say "To get the drinks, you'll have to buy it separately"

Imagine a combo meal without drinks. That's what is happening with some products.

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Andy Fletcher

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Mary Wilhite

LOL Andy.

That's a good one.

However, when McD offers a combo meal they do include everything promised and won't give you an incomplete meal, for example they won't say "To get the drinks, you'll have to buy it separately"

Imagine a combo meal without drinks. That's what is happening with some products.

That's kinda my entire point in my first post.

People aren't angry at OTOs. They're angry at people lying.

Separate the bit you hate from the bit that works and apply the bit that works in an ethical way.

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M Thompson 14 years ago

There have been several of these threads recently, While i don't like OTO's i am not going to complain about them .... like you don't complain about kids who copy their parents bad behavior... you just look at your kids and give thanks that you brought them up properly.

When i buy a wso I am getting (often..not always) a valuable product for $5-$17 for that money lets say $9 on average the vendor has paid for his listing , has paid for his WSO pro licence and is probably giving 50% to 100% to his affiliates.

For that he may well have worked 12 hours a day for a week to prepare a wso.I know of one going live soon thats been a month in the making and is over 80 pages long and totally original

Quite often the OTO/backend offer is where his profit is. Why begrudge fellow warriors that??

How much do you think most WSO's make?

I would guess that on average they make a lot less than you think. I've had some in the past that made a loss. just go and look through the listings on page 2 how many have very few comments or views?

For every WSO that makes $1000 + there are probably 10 making less than $100.

Personally i don't add OTO's to any WSO I do because

a) i don't like them

B) I am a crap marketer!

I do however make a point of adding an offer to the download page at times this has added 30% to the income made from a WSO, so a good OTO will probably bring in way more.

And finally i agree 100% with what Andy said a few posts above this about good and evil OTO's
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Mohammad Afaq

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Eduard Stinga

You don't get angry at McDonalds when the ~20 years old girl asks you "Would you like fries with that?", in fact, you actually say "No THANKS! - this example comes from a video in which it was very well explained, don't remember where I found it though.

No I don't, so like Andy said speak for yourself

Now about the whole "I hate OTOs" thing.

I believe if you are not willing to look at an offer from a product owner then why are you buying the initial product?

When I buy a product, I am putting my trust in the product creator and I am believing what he says in the sales copy and thus I don't mind seeing another offer from that person.

So it always amazes me that people are willing to trust the initial sales copy but after they buy they don't want to see anything else from the product creator.

It always boggles my mind that why people

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Robert Puddy

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Irsan Komarga

Like many of you, I buy WSO from time to time and now OTO is everywhere.
Don't you have OTO? When you are about to download the product after purchase then another offer on your face, jeezzz, what's up people.

*rants off*

I seriously hate people who hate OTO's

Dont you have any marketing sense jeez whats up people

*Rants on premanently*

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Tim Franklin

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Robert Puddy

I seriously hate people who hate OTO's

Dont you have any marketing sense jeez whats up people

*Rants on premanently*

Rant about people ranting when ranting is a rants rant, Robert, dont be a hater man, its bad for your blood pressure, us old folks have to watch out for that...

In case your wondering yes this is a joke.

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Robert Puddy

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Tim Franklin

Rant about people ranting when ranting is a rants rant, Robert, dont be a hater man, its bad for your blood pressure, us old folks have to watch out for that...

In case your wondering yes this is a joke.

i was being ironic

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Tim Franklin

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Robert Puddy

i was being ironic

yes me too, lol, )

I am glad that we can at least talk about issues like these, I dont mind one OTO, but the other day I purchased a WSO and was subjected to multiple upsells downsells, (sideways sells) had to subscribe to an auto responder, and then had to wait to get the product, over all it was a distasteful experience.

I think if we dont talk about it, we can expect to see even more bad behavior, and I also think it is funny when people come on here and complain about people who are irritated about sellers that have like 10 or 20 posts and then run a WSO with a nasty sales funnel.

That makes me laugh,)

(oh this is not directed at you at all I am just taking advantage of the moment)

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Rod Cortez

14 years ago

.......I dont mind one OTO, but the other day I purchased a WSO and was subjected to multiple upsells downsells, (sideways sells) had to subscribe to an auto responder, and then had to wait to get the product, over all it was a distasteful experience.

Now that's an OTO that would even bother me! When OTOs are done correctly they don't bother me one bit, but the example you just mentioned shows what an amateur the marketer is. That's a great way to almost guarantee that the cusomter will never buy from them again.

They didn't even give one iota of thought to the buyer's experience. In my book that's not even a REAL OTO because they made you go down, side ways, diagonal, up, into the 4th dimension, a possible parallel universe.........

RoD

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jasonl70

14 years ago

Yes, a lot of "marketers" around here don't like being marketed too. Whether it's getting "up in arms" over upsells, or needing to opt-in for something. I never really understood it.

That being said, if I were to offer an wso, I'd keep in mind the very unique nature of the customers and put some serious thought into how I planned to handle them.

Originally Posted by JudoRick

my offline business is in complementary medicine. If I treated my clients in this way then I am sure they would soon leave my practice but IMers think they can treat customers like this willy-nilly

While it may not apply to yours, most businesses would in fact do quite well by offering a customer more "purchase options" at the point of sale, and the customers don't usually complain too much about it. Make those offers a special discount, and watch even more people jump on them. This is normal business.

Originally Posted by Mary Wilhite

However, when McD offers a combo meal they do include everything promised and won't give you an incomplete meal, for example they won't say "To get the drinks, you'll have to buy it separately"

Imagine a combo meal without drinks. That's what is happening with some products.

I have to respond, because I have actually come acroos JUST THIS!

cici's pizza - a buffet were you end up paying extra for the drinks.
Long John Silvers - several of the meal's do not include a drink.

I don't like it - but it actually is done by some mainstream businesses out there!

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Charlotte Jay

14 years ago

I agree with most of the responses on here saying that an OTO is par for the course in the business we're in. I don't mind them if they are complimentary to the product or service I buy. What's annoying are the products that won't work unless you buy x, y, and z to make them work how they should. Otherwise if I don't like the OTO, then my mouse comes in handy to click that X button.

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Rod Cortez

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Irsan Komarga

Like many of you, I buy WSO from time to time and now OTO is everywhere.
Don't you have OTO? When you are about to download the product after purchase then another offer on your face, jeezzz, what's up people.

*rants off*

When I see an OTO offer that I don't want to purchase, I simple continue with the original purchase. Takes about 3 to 5 seconds to do so. *shrugs*

RoD

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kindsvater

14 years ago

Good grief.

Because this is a marketing forum no one can criticize marketing?

Perhaps, next time you buy a WSO and are hit with ...

- 52,279 OTOs you must click thru before getting access to your purchase,

- OTOs that, it turns out, are really what you thought you had originally bought,

- WSOs that are not "loss leaders", but fraudulent fronts for the real price someone wanted to charge for a product,

- Forced Facebook Likes, Google+ Clicks, etc., you must complete before getting access to what you already purchased ...

Just suck it up and don't complain. Because this is a marketing forum where only positive comments about marketing tactics, ideas, and strategies are allowed.

And please, don't ask for a refund. You asked for this.

.

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John Taylor

14 years ago

How about considering a couple of people..

Let's say Andrew is a smart businessman and he
tracks and analyses everything he does. Through
his testing he has discovered that he can increase
the lifetime value of his customers by effectively
using tools such as exit pops, one time offers and
integrated offers on his download page.

Then there's Bert who has read about exit pops and
one time offers on various forums, he's seen other
people use such things and he's decided to copy the
use of these tools. Unfortunately, he's not experienced
enough to know how to do it properly, so his offers
annoy some of his customers.

Different folks... different strokes.

John

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Istvan Horvath

14 years ago

Well, as it stands now:

- one opinion is defending the OTOs (upsells, cross-sales) when they are done properly

- another opinion is raging because of the OTOs done poorly

The issue is that both parties are talking "in general" as if all the OTOs were the same.

In a marketing forum we shouldn't complain about well-executed OTOs.
In a marketing forum we should talk about crappy practices that could make all of us look bad.

Just be more precise when putting together your sentences

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sethdrebitko 14 years ago

oto's and upsells are not a big deal to me. The real problem I have is exit pop ups. I treat sites with exit pop ups like I treat stores that harass me to no end on the way out...I never return.
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Zanti

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Istvan Horvath

In a marketing forum we shouldn't complain about well-executed OTOs.
In a marketing forum we should talk about crappy practices that could make all of us look bad.

Like many of you I have swipe files, and some of my files have some incredible OTO's and cross sales. I have learned a great deal from some very creative OTO's and cross sales. I studied the copy, understood where the seller was coming from and if it all made sense.

I have gone for several OTO's because they were a great value and at a tremendous discount.

I agree that I don't care for multiple upsales, OTO's, downsales etc... from a single purchase.

The only thing that really bothers me are OTO's that are a lie. You know, "Get this now for a never to be seen again price," and a day later I'm getting an email with the same OTO.

When I offer a OTO, it is truly a OTO, that will never be seen again. I might offer other discounts but never at the economic value of my OTO.

As my customer, once you understand that, my OTO's take on a new and different light.

OTO's are neither good or bad, they just are. I seek to analyze and learn from any copy, offers etc that are honest, well done, and make sense to me.

Brian

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Azarna 14 years ago

Does the fact that something is considered 'the norm' mean that an individual is not allowed to dislike it?

I took it that the OP was expressing his personal opinon with the intent of starting a disccussion on the merits (or otherwise) of this technique.

Isn't healthy discussion on the benefits of, and reactions to, various marketing techniques what this forum is for?
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- ExRat 14 years ago
  
  Hi Azarna,
  
  Isn't healthy discussion on the benefits of and reactions to various marketing techniques what this forum is for?
  
  Precisely.
  
  But as I mentioned earlier, having observed many of these types of discussions here, it's vital that commenters are clear about whether they are commenting from the point of a buyer or seller, marketer or consumer, otherwise the whole thing ends up being a whine-fest and then out come the 'marketers whining about marketing on a marketing forum' comments.
  
  It shouldn't be difficult for most to understand that there are many here now who are so new in their careers that they are more buyer than seller. But, it's worth noting that these people need encouragement in order to progress and if they are simply silenced, it doesn't necessarily help the marketplace (WSO forum) to function optimally, because any backlash appears in there instead.
  
  In other words those who sell WSOs and drop in here with a condescending one-liner aimed at newbs are actually shooting their own foot, in a roundabout way as well as demonstrating that they still have a distance to go towards the goal of fully-fledged 'marketer', because any marketer worth their salt should surely value and encourage market feedback, whatever flavour and however hard to swallow it is.
  
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Suthan M

14 years ago

i think OTOs are OK, in my book.

The real problem is OTOs that is done badly, which makes it hard for consumers, and puts a bad light into a popular marketing strategy.

Example: Everyone think Mcd "You want a fries with that" is simply brilliant.. But everyone thinks "3 upsells, 4 downsells" continuity programs sucks..

I agree. I hate those "multiple OTOs", but i think OTOs in general that is done properly are great and win win for both consumers and sellers alike.

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RussRuffino

14 years ago

The one sure-fire, 100% guaranteed formula for failure: try to please all the people all the time.

Russ

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Istvan Horvath 14 years ago

Originally Posted by RussRuffino

The one sure-fire, 100% guaranteed formula for failure: try to please all the people all the time.

Russ

Actually, I want to please only those that buy my OTO
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John Taylor

14 years ago

I wonder how many people have bought a book at Amazon
and seen the "People who bought this also bought..." message?

Or, how about when you try to buy a domain at GoDaddy and
are presented with offers for the same domain with different
extension, hosting, SSL certificate, etc.?

What about the winning bid page on eBay where they display
similar items?

I could go on.

My point is that every business can make choices on how they
wish to market their products.

The objective of all businesses is to make a profit for its owners
or its shareholders. It's not about pleasing a few people who
don't like specific business practices.

John

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jasonl70

14 years ago

My recent experiences:

"would you like batteries for your widget? If you purchase them now, with widget, you get a 20% discount on them".. hmm.. is that a BAD thing?

Ever buy a phone, and have the sales person offer you a case and phone charger?

Ever buy a pc, and been offered an "extended warranty" at the point of purchase? virus software?

Ever buy a shirt at men's store, and have the sales clerk try to sell you a tie?

Ever buy anything at Walgreens, and been asked by the cashier "would you like 3 candy bars for $1.50"?

Ever buy a motorcycle, and had the sales rep try to sell you riding gear?

Ever buy a domain, and been offered ssl certificates? whois guard? hosting?

Ever order broadband, and been offered "modem installation"?

Originally Posted by Ryan David

But in retail stores, the customer doesn't get short-changed because they bought a loss-leader. It's not like they buy a flat-screen TV without a plug and the store says "What'd you expect? That TV is a loss-leader for us"

Ever buy a printer with no printer cables?

My point is that OTO's, upsells, cross sells, etc are just the online equiv. of well known and proven sales techniques we run into EVERY day. And you know what? the vast majority of consumers are not up in arms over it.

Forums are full of people who learned a magic trick or 2, and then heckle the magician

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Tim Franklin

14 years ago

All true with the exception that once you make a purchase at Amazon or even a fast food restaurant, no one bothers you while your trying to eat, hoping to sell you another order of fries, or perhaps some dog food,

if they did that I don't think I would be eating there any more, because it interferes with my goal which is to eat, or more correctly when I make a purchase and I have a choice to look at more specials which may be a great deal, I should be able to choose not to see an advert, or to just get what I paid for, there are times when I do not want yet another product which may or may not have anything to do with the first product,

(want fries with that shake) or perhaps you might like a can of premium cat food with that order?

That is the point and you know what else, Amazon does not force you to click on (this is what other people purchased, links, yes its there, if you want it, but, it is not a requirement of placing the order, get it)

And additionally, this may not only be a matter of choice much longer, but also of Law in the very near future, (sounds crazy right) but check out click banks new terms of service, and more importantly consider why they changed their TOS that is really the most interesting thing, legally they found that they needed to have a look at the sales flow, now that is something you should really read up on.

Vendor Promotional Messaging Guidelines

Want to know what click bank has to do with selling online or marketing online? Glad you asked, the FTC is coming out with its "revised" rules are regs which are meant to monitor and control how offers are made online.

See deceptive advertising and full disclosure of internet marketing items.

Click bank has paid Attorneys to advise them on these rules and that is why they have made the changes they have made, ) (think about it for a moment and you will see why that makes sense) See, this is not just a do as you please world any longer and that argument will not get your product approved at click bank but it might get approved as a WSO, who knows how things might work out in the future, I know that I want to be "Aware" of what is going on in the world of Internet Marketing, because knowledge is power in this case and it has nothing to do with your freedom to do as you please in your business model, but rather everything to do with attracting the wrong kind of attention to your business model.

It is apparent that this is quickly degrading into a she said he said type thing, where everyone has his or her own opinion on the matter, no matter what your opinion is the customer is the primary consideration.

(if you are selling a widget) and then you offer a back scratch-er and a fly swat, and then require that person to give you their phone number and address then ask them if they are really sure if this is all they want to buy, (could I interest you in a this really cool lava lamp with yoru fries today?)

Extreme yes, and that is what we are talking about here, even click bank agrees that you should be allowed to offer a related product, and they are difficult to please at best, So the idea that anyone who dares question the sales practices of a WSO in which they have made a purchase and perhaps even made an OTO purchase, that somehow our opinion is invalid? you know that is not good thinking... sorry if that offends anyone.

What needs to be said here is this if we do not market products in a responsible manner, which includes playing by "All" the rules, then eventually someone will do it for you...

That is the message I hope you take away from this thread, if we do not do it ourselves, someone else with no knowledge of how this market works will step in and do it for you, that is something you do not want...

Originally Posted by John Taylor

I wonder how many people have bought a book at Amazon
and seen the "People who bought this also bought..." message?

Or, how about when you try to buy a domain at GoDaddy and
are presented with offers for the same domain with different
extension, hosting, SSL certificate, etc.?

What about the winning bid page on eBay where they display
similar items?

I could go on.

My point is that every business can make choices on how they
wish to market their products.

The objective of all businesses is to make a profit for its owners
or its shareholders. It's not about pleasing a few people who
don't like specific business practices.

John

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Rick Britton

14 years ago

I am first and foremost an offline business person. I do not say to my client as soon as they have purchased from me "by the way, if you would like to buy this service from me you can buy it at a reduced price but if you dont buy now then if you want it in the future you will have to pay more for it" and then, when they say "no thanks", I would not prevent them from leaving my office until they listen to another offer.

Just because it works and you lot make money from it and just because you are able to do it does not make it right.

The OTO I hate most is the one where the upsell product makes the purchase of the original WSO or whatever look quite pathetic especially when the original sales page hypes it up. Then you see the OTO and think.... "Why the XXXXXXXXX did you not just offer me this which is clearly MILES better?" and at that point I generally think "screw you"

Yes, you are all clever and the numbers mean you are gonna continue doing it - dont mean people like it

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sal64

14 years ago

Far out... I wake up to 2 pages on a crap thread?

Some people should spend their energy on building their biz and not ranting about OTO and WSO's.

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Rick Britton 14 years ago

Originally Posted by sal64

Far out... I wake up to 2 pages on a crap thread?

Some people should spend their energy on building their biz and not ranting about OTO and WSO's.

I posted at 9.41pm my time after finishing a 14 hour day running three different businesses both on and offline with virtually no break... i do focus on business
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anton343 14 years ago

Originally Posted by sal64

Far out... I wake up to 2 pages on a crap thread?

Some people should spend their energy on building their biz and not ranting about OTO and WSO's.

maybe we should do the same instead of reading crap threads!

The OP and others are entitled to their opinions, it seems to be happening more on here these days that if you post any opinion that is against any aspect of IM people come on and slap you down.
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Mieko

14 years ago

It's called marketing. Besides no one is making you purchase the OTO, surely

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sal64

14 years ago

With respect to the OP, it was just a rant. Such rants add nothing of value to the forum. Especially if they contain no constructive solutions for others to benefit from.

Too many focus on negatives instead of getting on with the job IMO.

If the cap fits, then wear it. If not - you have nothing to be concerned about.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and I am entitled to comment also.

Agree or disagree, I really don't care.

EDIT: The OP would be better served studying these oto's and using what works for his own business.

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E. Brian Rose

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Irsan Komarga

Like many of you, I buy WSO from time to time and now OTO is everywhere.
Don't you have OTO? When you are about to download the product after purchase then another offer on your face, jeezzz, what's up people.

*rants off*

Just out of curiosity, have you ever ordered anything off of the TV? The number of one time offers that the automated ordering system offers is mind blowing! You have to sit and listen to them all before completing your purchase.

They are smart about their timing, though. They get your credit card umber and tell you that you need to write down your receipt number, which comes after a train of special offers.

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dm101

14 years ago

Here's the thing: if OTO's were hated by everybody, they'd disappear. If they work, they'll stay around. And if they work, you'd better start using them too! I mean, why not? I hate TV commercials, but if i can make a lot of money airing one... I will!

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Rus Sells

14 years ago

This thread is fast becoming an epic whine fest for the OTO haters!

This is a MARKETING FORUM! You should expect to get marketed too!!!

I've lost interest now.

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Paul Barrs

14 years ago

Hmm.... I wasn't going to say anything but now perhaps will....

Quick note to all those wonderful people who buy WSO's but don't like OTO's -

DON'T BUY ANY OF MINE! Because you sure as hell won't like the extra value I offer in my OTO!!

Paul Barrs

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Rick Britton

14 years ago

my whole offline business is MARKETING based but I would never use OTO - ever because I would not work that way with face to face clients and I bet many of you Internet Marketers would not either

the fact is you do it in your online marketing because you can and its easy and you dont have to look your customer in the eye as you pull the trick on them

the fact that it works and increases sales is irrelevant - it still sucks.

you pitched and sold a product with a sales method and just when the purchaser gets their CC out you say hang on a minute have a look at this product which is even better than the one you just bought and you would be dumb not to buy it because you already fell for the sales pitch for the inferior product.... but you only get the discount if you buy now

yeah great for you guys but when I pitch my offline clients I let them know what all my products and prices are with the relative benefits - and I let them choose the product that is appropriate for their needs

marketing does not have to mean armlocking your customer into submission

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professorrosado 14 years ago

I think what is needed from the learned and experienced marketers in this thread is to define what a proper OTO should look and smell like for the benefit of the many who have or will be trying to use it in their marketing strategies.

It is clear that this thread is a result of poor OTO practices. As "industry insiders", we need to attempt to establish some sort of consensus as to the proper OTO form and to suggest the same to our members and visitors who are graced by our daily rants ... I mean dialogue.

So now, some purposeful, constructive OTO reforms please.....
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E. Brian Rose

14 years ago

This is the first time that I have ever used the font size to scream something here, but I think it warrants a shout...

Name a business that doesn't offer upsells and I will name a business that is either failing or will fail.

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E. Brian Rose

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Chris Kent

Nobody is moaning about upsells per se. Where did you get that idea from?

Really? Start with the title of the thread.

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E. Brian Rose

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Chris Kent

An OTO is one type of upsell. Surely you know that????

Of course I know this, which is why I used the term upsell. No clue what point you are attempting to make.

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David Keith 14 years ago

Originally Posted by E. Brian Rose

Of course I know this, which is why I used the term upsell. No clue what point you are attempting to make.

i think you are just look to boost your post count.
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JK Brian...please don't go off on me with big red letters.
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- baby_butler2002 14 years ago
  
  Greedy Marketers! Just look at this thread
  I to hate oto with all i im
  i buy a product than im forwarded to a pages that says for better training purchase my oto! well what the hell did i just buy bull****.i want the best training with my first purchase not some cheap, water down version or some lesser product.you know what really upsets me is i know what there doing"Get all you can while they have their wallet in their hand" Bait and switch.promise you one thing for $9 then once you've paid wait a minute if you really want the real product it going to cost you more. Dirty marketing but thank God for click bank "refund" keep your porduct and your oto"
  
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  professorrosado 14 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by baby_butler2002
  
  ....
  im forwarded to a pages that says for better training purchase my oto! well what the hell did i just buy.....
  
  You're absolutely right! I think this type of OTO is poorly fabricated. If you're going to sell a training course, then make it the best course possible. The OTO should be related but never a better version of what was offered. That choice should be afforded before I press the buy now. I believe that Paypal buttons have a menu you can use to give the buyer a choice of what to purchase.
  
  Has anyone ever tested offering multiple "versions" of the product before the purchase is consummated and how was it implemented?
  
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anton343

14 years ago

i have bought some OTO's, I have even refused some. I have also unsubscribed from lists after being made to jump through hoops to get to the product....

But what amazes me is some of the arguments you guys put forward to defend them. Every time this subject comes up you jump in quoting the famous mcdonalds " Would you like fries with that" or similar.

These are nothing like OTO's

You are offered the fries before you make your purchase with a OTO it comes after you have made the purchase and you are trying to get your product.

What would you do if the waiter in Mcdonalds stood with your burger in their hand (after you have paid) and said....

" Would you Like fries, no how about some apple pie then it's a special today. Ok you don't want that what about a bagel blah blah blah.

If you want to defend them fine I'm not against them but guys c'mon.

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baby_butler2002

14 years ago

Originally Posted by anton343

i have bought some OTO's, I have even refused some. I have also unsubscribed from lists after being made to jump through hoops to get to the product....

But what amazes me is some of the arguments you guys put forward to defend them. Every time this subject comes up you jump in quoting the famous mcdonalds " Would you like fries with that" or similar.

These are nothing like OTO's

You are offered the fries before you make your purchase with a OTO it comes after you have made the purchase and you are trying to get your product.

What would you do if the waiter in Mcdonalds stood with your burger in their hand (after you have paid) and said....

" Would you Like fries, no how about some apple pie then it's a special today. Ok you don't want that what about a bagel blah blah blah.

If you want to defend them fine I'm not against them but guys c'mon.

I agree , I have never went to McDonald and bought a hamburger and open the box to find only the buns and they say it'll be another $10 for the meat/hamburger.
OTO Greedy Marketers

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Suthan M 14 years ago

Originally Posted by Chris Kent

An OTO is one type of upsell. Surely you know that????

I really find this confusing. :confused:

Well, surely he knows that well enough couse he raised a good point about it. :rolleyes:
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Rick Britton

14 years ago

Originally Posted by E. Brian Rose

This is the first time that I have ever used the font size to scream something here, but I think it warrants a shout...

Name a business that doesn't offer upsells and I will name a business that is either failing or will fail.

completely irrelevant and you know it - this has nothing to do with whether upsells are important or not

it is the manner, timing and delivery of the sales pitch at the time the CC has been produced that is the problem with this technique especially when it becomes clear that the cheaper product has been sold at a ridiculously low price to entice you into the upsell

yes you IMers will defend it but in reality it is a dirty trick and yes as the person said above I have seen many so called OTOs being offered months later at the same price.

If you got a great product (and there are many out there) be a man and pitch it to your lead directly. Develop a reputation for being straight and open. This will pay just as well in the long run because evcery time you launch a new product you will be looked upon favourably by consumers. Once I see some of the tactics used by some I unsubscribe from lists and mark email as spam and so on...

anyway you carry on thinking its fine

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sal64

14 years ago

Your not serious are you?

It's a free market. Those who can will prosper. Those who can't will fail.

Yes, us IM'rs will defend it.

And what are you exactly? This is an IM forum.

Originally Posted by JudoRick

completely irrelevant and you know it - this has nothing to do with whether upsells are important or not

it is the manner, timing and delivery of the sales pitch at the time the CC has been produced that is the problem with this technique especially when it becomes clear that the cheaper product has been sold at a ridiculously low price to entice you into the upsell

yes you IMers will defend it but in reality it is a dirty trick and yes as the person said above I have seen many so called OTOs being offered months later at the same price.

If you got a great product (and there are many out there) be a man and pitch it to your lead directly. Develop a reputation for being straight and open. This will pay just as well in the long run because evcery time you launch a new product you will be looked upon favourably by consumers. Once I see some of the tactics used by some I unsubscribe from lists and mark email as spam and so on...

anyway you carry on thinking its fine

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Geeked Labs

14 years ago

Originally Posted by JudoRick

completely irrelevant and you know it - this has nothing to do with whether upsells are important or not

it is the manner, timing and delivery of the sales pitch at the time the CC has been produced that is the problem with this technique especially when it becomes clear that the cheaper product has been sold at a ridiculously low price to entice you into the upsell

yes you IMers will defend it but in reality it is a dirty trick and yes as the person said above I have seen many so called OTOs being offered months later at the same price.

If you got a great product (and there are many out there) be a man and pitch it to your lead directly. Develop a reputation for being straight and open. This will pay just as well in the long run because evcery time you launch a new product you will be looked upon favourably by consumers. Once I see some of the tactics used by some I unsubscribe from lists and mark email as spam and so on...

anyway you carry on thinking its fine

Have you ever done in person sales? The first thing they teach you is to get the customer in the sales funnel and immediately "help them" by offering them more products via selective questioning.

You're prob a great guy in real life, but as a business owner I think I can say that the majority of us would rather not have you as a customer.

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ExRat 14 years ago

Hi,

Why get emotional about it?

Most of the participants in these discussions are at cross-purposes because too many fail to clarify whether their comments are coming from the context of being a marketing legend or a disgruntled consumer. Without this clarification, it's a bit pointless. But let's assume that no one here is purely a disgruntled consumer and all of you have aspirations to be correct about this in the context of being a smart, successful, professional and efficient marketer.

If you're in the one camp that believes that OTOs/upsells are a work of art and that all businesses will fail without them, go forth and do them with aplomb and destroy the competition.

Alternatively, if you're in the other camp and believe that OTOs/upsells are so insulting/unethical/poorly done that it's commercial suicide to use them, go forth and do business with aplomb without them and destroy the competition.

The only logical reasons for discussing it further must be to either learn something new and possibly change your mind on the matter, or to educate others, in which case -

Firstly -

a) stop throwing stones at each other

Then -

b) use your preferred tactic to devastating effect

c) document the process, the logic, the techniques and the proof

d) give away or sell the resulting information which solves the argument for good and become a thought-leading Warrior forum marketing legend in the process.

The proof is in the pudding.
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Rick Britton

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Josh Jagger

Have you ever done in person sales? The first thing they teach you is to get the customer in the sales funnel and immediately "help them" by offering them more products via selective questioning.

You're prob a great guy in real life, but as a business owner I think I can say that the majority of us would rather not have you as a customer.

I am in sales all the time in my offline business

and you are right you would not want to upset me in a face to face business deal coz you would soon know about it.

Anyway, yes the OTO is odious to me. There is more to life and business that extracting every penny from your customer. Many OTOs I have seen are frankly insulting in that they make the original purchase completely irrelevant (quite often the original product will never get used) so in fact you are not really getting two products at a great price.

There are other reasons to be on an internet marketing forum other than selling digital products you know.

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Geeked Labs

14 years ago

Originally Posted by JudoRick

I am in sales all the time in my offline business

and you are right you would not want to upset me in a face to face business deal coz you would soon know about it.

Anyway, yes the OTO is odious to me. There is more to life and business that extracting every penny from your customer. Many OTOs I have seen are frankly insulting in that they make the original purchase completely irrelevant (quite often the original product will never get used) so in fact you are not really getting two products at a great price.

There are other reasons to be on an internet marketing forum other than selling digital products you know.

I'm sure you're a great marketer and I don't doubt that your offline business is prob doing great!

However, you must realize that as a marketer isn't it our main job is to find out everything our customer wants to buy and present it in a way that maximizes profit?

Telling marketers not to use OSO's is kinda like telling a kick boxer not to use his feet because you like boxing and think it's unsportsman like.

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ExRat 14 years ago

Hi Josh,

However, you must realize that as a marketer isn't it our main job is to find out everything our customer wants to buy and present it in a way that maximizes profit?

Yes, but it's the 'presentation' that is key to this and whether you want to maximise profit right now, or over the long term. In other words, it's a little narrow-minded to assume that in order to 'present an offer in a way that maximises profit' requires an OTO or upsell - this process doesn't have to be rushed, although many seem to assume that if you don't rush it and use pressure (IE genuine OTO - click away and it's gone forever) then you're NOT maximising profit. I disagree.

EG Some present those offers in a rush (IE OTO). Whereas others present them in a way that is designed to win long term business. Some go somewhere between the two.

Neither is incorrect in my opinion. It's down to the seller and which business strategy they want to follow. But for some businesses, using OTOs is doing the opposite of maximising profit, whereas setting things up for long term repeat business is more in line with that strategy.

This conundrum comes up a lot. I remember a few years ago one of the gurus created a product designed to maximise 'web real estate' by placing ads for third-party products on thankyou pages.

It was clear to anyone paying attention that this was this particular guru's forte.

He designed a system that rotated and hosted the adverts, so his customers would be in two groups -

a) those placing ads on people's thankyou pages

b) those hosting ads on their own thankyou pages

(And those doing both as well)

This is typical IM guru 'creative' thinking - create a product out of nothing much, then stand in the middle and take a cut of the transaction off of both parties.

The truth is that the middleman isn't really needed by the one side. Anyone can place a 3rd party ad of their own choice on their thankyou pages without the need for a broker.

In order to sell this concept, the guru needed to create some traction for his idea so he created sales copy revolving around people 'leaving money on the table by not maximising the revenue from their web page real estate.'

Of course, a bunch of sheeple ran around repeating this concept, slamming anyone who 'left money on the table.'

I watched with interest from the sidelines. It was interesting that no one considered the other side of the coin - that a 'thankyou page' is given that name for a reason.

It's difficult to say 'thankyou' to someone with any kind of sincerity when they have just trusted you in a market reknowned for sleight of hand but you are immediately pressuring them to buy the next offer and slapping flashing banners in their face when they're trying to find a download link.

It kind of goes against the concept of 'gratitude', if you know what I mean. But not many consider this.

So my point is this - some people want maximum ROI RIGHT NOW! And to hell with the consequences. They will justify this by pointing out that IM is a fickle market, buyers are not loyal and there is a high turnover of prospects anyway.

Others take a different approach and consider that by treating people with dignity, sincerity and respect, they will gain long term customers and create word of mouth cheerleaders.

In my opinion, neither is incorrect. They just have different business strategies.

What is clear is that a certain percentage of the market are so fed up with *misleading* OTOs/upsells (for example, the one where the product is initially sold as 'complete' and the 'ultimate package' then as soon as commitment (payment) is given they are offered the 'deluxe version') - that regardless of whether an OTO/upsell is misleading or not, they are going to be unhappy if one is there at all and they will look very closely to find any kind of deception, because they are expecting it.

What matters though is whether a seller caters to that certain percentage in order to satisfy them or whether they choose to carry on regardless. It's the seller's choice, I offer no opinion on either approach, but it's down to what they estimate that percentage to actually be and whether it constitutes a majority or minority of their actual target market.
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Rocket Media

14 years ago

The copy on OTOs has gotten SO good over the years lol

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David Keith

14 years ago

the idea that oto's are not used often or effectively offline because no one is willing to look their customers in the eye and offer them is just crazy.

lots of companies offer extended warranties that must be bought with the original purchase.

any decent offline business owner offers deals to customers who are willing to make impulse buying decisions. some businesses do it with every sale.

and marketing is not a one size fits all thing. your damn right people market differently online than they do offline. they better.

when someone visitors your online store, you have mere seconds to get their attention. in the offline world you have minutes, maybe tens of minutes or longer.

one difference online is that every customer gets asked every time because the computers dont forget or get embarrassed to ask for another sale. humans do, and it costs them money.

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David Keith

14 years ago

i would be interested to know how many of those who are against oto's are making a full time living selling info products online.

i would bet a good deal of my money that most of those who raise such a fuss about oto's are net buyers of info products and those of us that defend the oto's are net sellers (we make more selling info products than we spend buying info products).

i wonder if there is a marketing lesson to be learned from that.

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AmandaT

14 years ago

Just an example of an upsell that I liked.

I bought a course recently on selling ebooks as an affiliate. It goes over how to pick your product, build your website, set up your autoresponder, even gives you templates for everything. It was an amazing product.

The OTO included a product to teach you about making your own products. I thought this was great since for many that is the logical step forward from selling as an affiliate. The OTO wasn't required to make the system work, it would just help you expand upon the business model later.

That is the key... the OTO needs to be related to the main offer but not required. Something that enhances the main offer but is not needed.

Another example of a OTO that I liked... I bought a different course to review for my blog about a month ago. The system worked well, it was easy to understand, but there was huge potential by outsourcing most of the system. The OTO was a set of training materials to pass on to your team. It was a set of videos and PDFs that would walk them through setting things up so you wouldn't need to train them. I loved it!

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tigerwar

14 years ago

It lies in the human nature to want own something that appeals to us or might be of benefit to us, be it the "Long-life" batteries fot the kids teddy-bear, a car with the shiny "extras" or an Internet marketing product to either soothe the pains of tedious chors or simply make more money....If the OTO appeals to me, I'll buy it, nobody's forcing me to press the button.

AND, we have some truly creative members in the WF enabling us a better life.

Keep the good work up guys 'n gals

cheers
TW

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jasonl70

14 years ago

well, I don't recall ever purchasing a product only to find out that the salesletter included copy for the OTO. And even if some sellers try to pull off something like that, it has ZERO to do with the feasibilty or ethics of upsells.

That's like saying you don't believe in sales reps, since one lied to you once.

I hate to say this, but if someone has problems seperating the validity of the concept vs particular peoples implementations, then I have to question their analytic skills.

Nowhere will you ever hear someone teaching the oto concept as "make the original sales presentation include (and be dependent on) the benefits of the OTO, but make them pay extra for it after they pay the original price". You won't see it taught, and I doubt very many people implement it that way.

If you find yourself running across this a lot while others are not, I'd ask myself "why I do I keep beign attracted to shadey offers that others are somehow staying clear of"?

Are you buying wso's from unkown people?

Are you missing something in the sales copy that others are picking up on?

re: the very poor "hamburger" analogy. Sorry, but the OTO/upsell is NOT buying the hamburger and finding out you only got buns - that the meat was extra. You get exactly what was advertised. If you don't, it's not because upsells are bad - it's because of false advertising.

I for one will never feel guilty for offering my customers special discounts on other products at the point of sale. Not when it's a win-win situation.

one more example of an offline OTO I just experienced today:
My fathers business is havign problems with their ISP. They pay for 8 static ip's - and the ISP keeps changing them on them with no notice (bringing their business to a halt).
So I found a new provider for them today.

Sales rep: "would you be interested in adding cable tv to your service? I can probably get you a 40% discount on it if we add it to this order"
Sales rep: "if you want to step up to the 15Mbps plan, I can probably get you a discount on it"

was I mad? hell no.. we added the cable tv (cancelled dish network), and got the fatter pipe! and I was perfectly content with process... and you know what - I wouldn't be crying about the 10Mbps if I wasn't able to go for the fatter pipe..

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sal64

14 years ago

The problem I have with this thread is that the OP tars all oto's with the same brush.

Do bad products exist? Yes they do. Do bad oto's exist? Yes they do.

Frankly, I have no problem with oto's on the following basis:

Firstly, the first product is what is promised in the sales copy... at whatever price, I get what I pay for. If the initial product is a $10 WSO then I honestly don't expect miracles.

On the other hand, if they claim it be comprehensive and then the oto tells me in order to use the product I have to pay extra, then that's not on. It's like buying a car and then having to pay extra for the keys. Mind you, I am yet to come across this type of offer in all my years online.

Most oto's are normally upgrades to a better package / product or other related products.

It reminds me of my younger days when I went out to pick up girls. I expected to get slapped, so I got used to it and just ignored it. But we digress...

What really pisses me off is when people carry on about these issues. To them I say this:

Go to the following sites and try to buy 1 product - amazon and GoDaddy. Then you'll see what it's all about.

Now why do these massive corporations do this? Because it works, duh!

Ok, so let's say that as a business owner you have a moral issue with them. Well that's cool. You have a right to copy or not. That's your call (but don't forget that you are not your customer so don't presume to know what's best for them).

People like to make informed purchse decisions. All we do is show them the options. Then let them decide what they want.

Is it really that evil?

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jasonl70

14 years ago

Originally Posted by sal64

On the other hand, if they claim it be comprehensive and then the oto tells me in order to use the product I have to pay extra, then that's not on. It's like buying a car and then having to pay extra for the keys. Mind you, I am yet to come across this type of offer in all my years online.

Most oto's are normally upgrades to a better package / product or other related products.

my point as well... I really haven't come across these evil "combo meals missing the burger that was advertised" OTO's yet (I think they're like bigfoot or manbearpig

). If I ever do come across one, it doesn't mean oto's are bad - it means the seller is.

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sal64

14 years ago

For me, it goes back to price.

You get what you pay for - period.

So if I pat $2k for a course, I would expect it to be comprehensive.

But for a WSO? Let's get real.

People hate oto's? Fine, don't buy products... especially since 90% of offers will have one.

The WSO forum isn't the only place to shop.

If I can go back to the burger analogy, it's like buying a burger at Mac's and expecting a 3 inch NY sirloin steak.

Heck, even airlines are in on the caper. Budget fares + ++ based on what extra services you want.

Anyway, whatever happened to putting your upsells on the thank you page?

OTO's should be strcitly OTO's... not an upsell offered as an OTO. That just sucks IMO.

Originally Posted by jasonl70

my point as well... I really haven't come across these evil "combo meals missing the burger that was advertised" OTO's yet (I think they're like bigfoot or manbearpig

). If I ever do come across one, it doesn't mean oto's are bad - it means the seller is.

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Mike Baker

14 years ago

Originally Posted by sal64

But for a WSO? Let's get real.

Why should a WSO be any different? The problem comes back to WSO sellers lowering their prices just to make sales and lowering the standards as a whole in the WSO section. Everyone now expects WSO's to sell between $7 - $17. Who the hell says they have to be that price?! If your product is full on valuable content and can genuinely teach someone to follow what you know, then sell it for what it's worth. I'd rather pay more for a complete course than a $7 report.

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sal64

14 years ago

I'd say that $27 is the upper price limit. But I have sold at $47 also.

Look, I'll say it again...

It's all relative. If knuckleheads want to offer a massive product for peanuts then they deserve what they get.

What I see is basic products selling for small change.

Now the problem is that if you have a $47 and looking to sell it on a WSO for that price, then you have the wrong audience. The forum is price driven.

I honestly don't know what the answer is, nor do I have the power or inclination to change it. Maybe they sellers should show that they have amain site and the retail price? Dunno. What if I want to offer a cliff notes version of an ebook exclusively as a WSO?

So what to do?

That's why I just ignore it and only buy things such as content when I need it. Otherwise, I don't buy.

Now there's a huge discussion on another thing about pricing. But the OP was just whining and this does nothing other than create negativity.

Originally Posted by Mike Baker

Why should a WSO be any different? The problem comes back to WSO sellers lowering their prices just to make sales and lowering the standards as a whole in the WSO section. Everyone now expects WSO's to sell between $7 - $17. Who the hell says they have to be that price?! If your product is full on valuable content and can genuinely teach someone to follow what you know, then sell it for what it's worth. I'd rather pay more for a complete course than a $7 report.

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MarkusD

14 years ago

If I buy a product and it has an OTO and it's relevant to my interests, I'm GLAD that the offer is there and I don't have to look else where for it.

I see no problem with tasteful OTO's. I do hate the never ending OTO's, where they just go on and on for products that have little to no relevance to the product I just purchased.

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Mike Baker

14 years ago

This is the problem as I see it:

But firstly, I am sick to death of this excuse, "THIS IS A MARKETING FORUM!". It may be a marketing forum, but the WSO section is NOT!

The WSO section was originally created for people who were selling products on their own websites to come here and sell their products at a reduced (Special Offer) rate so that warriors got the best price on the web. In doing so, you may have reduced your price, but you gained extra buyers from the exposure you got on such a huge site.

Now one day someone decided it might be a good idea to bring their entire sales funnel that works perfectly well on their own website here into the WSO section. It worked for them and other saw how well it worked, so they followed suit. But in doing so, have reduced the reason why the WSO section was created into a marketplace you marketers can now throw in their entire sales funnel at people who originally came here just to get the reduced price on a product instead of going through an entire sales funnel at the sellers website. So now the WSO section is nothing but a place for any marketer to come and sell their products including their entire sales funnel even if they don't have a website of their own where they are selling the same product. The WSO section has become a cheap and nasty place for marketers to HOST their own sales pages and sales funnels.

In my opinion the WSO section should go back to what it was designed for. You should first prove that you are selling the product on your own website before you can sell it here at a reduced price and the main product should be the only think the warrior members get a chance to purchase. If you want them in your sales funnel use other marketing tactics to get them to go to your own site and buy the product from there and get them in your sales funnel!

And to those referring to McDonalds and the way they use upsells by asking if we "want fries with that" is actually annoying to hell. I hate it when I get asked if I want something extra with my order. If I did, I would have asked for it! I'm not the kind of person who thinks by asking someone if they want something extra to go with their order/product will make me a considerable more money. My intentions are always to try and make the person who buys my products easier for the goal they are trying to achieve. This is the true essence of business. Making the customers life just that little easier to accomplish their goal with your product, and in doing so you are rewarded with some cash payments and hopefully repeat business from them. It should not be about just earning as much money as you possibly can and ignoring the feelings of the people around us. GREED has become an evil trait in our world today and it is only going to get worse if we don't stand up and make some changes to the way we run our businesses.

Also, just because this is a marketing forum, doesn't mean that everything you read is doctrine. A lot of people here are sprouting comments about things they hardly know anything about and the readers take it as doctrine and put it into practise and in return making things worse for the rest of us. We all need to be careful as to what we say, not just here, but in all walks of our life. In saying that, we also need to take credibility for our own actions and research on everything we read and not believe the first thing we see as being truth. What one person says in only ever their own opinion. When a group of like minded people agree, then you can begin to have faith that the information may be helpful.

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ExRat

14 years ago

Hi Mike Baker,

You make some logical and valid points, but they require clarification in order to gain an accurate response.

When you say -

A lot of people here are sprouting comments about things they hardly know anything about and the readers take it as doctrine and put it into practise and in return making things worse for the rest of us.

If you look at the part I have bolded, are you saying this as a buyer of WSOs, or as a seller of WSOs?

Most of your post seems to err on the side of being a buyer (EG comments about 'fries' upsells in McDonalds) but you have four WSOs in your sig file, which therefore begs the question.

Plus, one of them is 'sell more products with the power of persuasion', which raises more questions about the nature of your post, such as -

And to those referring to McDonalds and the way they use upsells by asking if we "want fries with that" is actually annoying to hell. I hate it when I get asked if I want something extra with my order. If I did, I would have asked for it! I'm not the kind of person who thinks by asking someone if they want something extra to go with their order/product will make me a considerable more money. My intentions are always to try and make the person who buys my products easier for the goal they are trying to achieve. This is the true essence of business. Making the customers life just that little easier to accomplish their goal with your product, and in doing so you are rewarded with some cash payments and hopefully repeat business from them. It should not be about just earning as much money as you possibly can and ignoring the feelings of the people around us. GREED has become an evil trait in our world today and it is only going to get worse if we don't stand up and make some changes to the way we run our businesses.

Yet a quick glance at your sales copy for your persuasion product reveals -

You can’t just pitch a product to onlookers using the same tone, mood, and phrases as you would to make a suggestion to a friend.

You have to select words and phrases that will instruct the reader to think and act in a way that will eventually result in them buying your products.

There are a number of tricks. Some involve inserting certain “psychological trigger” words into your copy.

These words will generate some association in the reader’s mind, which will compel them to act in a specific way.

Back to the post above -

We all need to be careful as to what we say, not just here, but in all walks of our life. In saying that, we also need to take credibility for our own actions and research on everything we read and not believe the first thing we see as being truth.

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Ryan Rieth

14 years ago

I don't mind OTO, after all this is IM and you can't blame someone for trying to make a couple extra bucks. But what gets annoying is when your buying a WSO and they don't tell you that there is a OTO and that the WSO is practically useless without the OTO.

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rainman

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Irsan Komarga

Like many of you, I buy WSO from time to time and now OTO is everywhere.
Don't you have OTO? When you are about to download the product after purchase then another offer on your face, jeezzz, what's up people.

*rants off*

Depending on my mood, sometimes I will request a refund based on how many upsells and downsells keep me from reaching the download page...

A while back I purchased a product and had to click through 10 (that's right, ten) up/downsells before reaching the product page.

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anton343

14 years ago

Originally Posted by rainman

Depending on my mood, sometimes I will request a refund based on how many upsells and downsells keep me from reaching the download page...

A while back I purchased a product and had to click through 10 (that's right, ten) up/downsells before reaching the product page.

The next thing you know is the seller will be branding you a serial refunder without realising it's his own incompetence and greed that caused the refund request.

One offer for an genuine product that compliments the sale is enough

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kindsvater 14 years ago

Originally Posted by rainman

A while back I purchased a product and had to click through 10 (that's right, ten) up/downsells before reaching the product page.

Did you post a review about this in the WSO thread to warn others?

This type of abuse should also be reported to the Forum Help Desk. I don't know where the "cut off" is between making a purchase and getting what you paid for, but I am confident 10 intervening offers is on the wrong side of that line.

.
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MontelloMarketing

14 years ago

Gotta do it, dude. Just can't make money on a regular offer after you pay commissions and all that.

What sucks to me is the relentless OTOs... the 3 upsells... 4 downsells... a cross-sell or 2... all coming off a $27 sale.

It's overkill and it kills our business.

Originally Posted by Irsan Komarga

Like many of you, I buy WSO from time to time and now OTO is everywhere.
Don't you have OTO? When you are about to download the product after purchase then another offer on your face, jeezzz, what's up people.

*rants off*

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Tim Franklin

14 years ago

I keep seeing people complaining about the (WSO loss concept) They talk like there is no other business model but the one they "think" they must use.

The one thing that I have not seen is anyone questioning that concept.

As part of the terms a WSO is priced at a discount but nowhere does it say that this entitles you to market to that warrior beyond the concept of that WSO purchase, what your doing is attempting to force buyers into a process where they may be an unwilling participant, and then they have to make choice after choice after choice before they can access the product for which they paid.

The new FTC guides will be enforced beginning the first quarter of next year, check the website for exact dates, and yes, this could effect your business.

If your doing this your wrong, period, not only that but if your in the US, you could be breaking the law, and yes that is something that should be discussed it is not silly it is not sad, it is the truth.

If your not making enough money from a WSO change your business model who says that you have to lose money from a WSO?

Seems to me that it would be a lot easier to change your sales approach and benefit from the result.

There really are only two sales markets here.

B2B, (Business 2 Business) and B2C (Business 2 Consumer)

When you treat a customer as a Consumer, and they are actually a Business then you hurt your own business however treat that consumer the same way you would in the B2B market and you cant go wrong.

Multiple, up-sells, Down-sells, requiring subscribing to an email list then send that customer email after email trying to get them to buy more and more and more, when they are being bombarded with email marketing attempts from all manner of other marketers,

(yes, Some Sellers are selling your email address to other marketers.)

So yes, after a while being treated as a consumer is an insult to our intelligence and that really is what people are irritated about.

I do not think that it is wrong to have a common sense discussion about this subject, and considering that there have been several here that have commented and trashed out buyers, for being concerned about being treated badly by a Seller is sort of like spitting into the wind it comes back on you.

Treat people like you would like to be treated and you will be successful.

Trash people out, call them names, make fun of them and make them feel badly and you will not be successful, history teaches us that this is true and it is not that hard to figure it out.

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Alex Copeland

14 years ago

I agree with what quite a few people have said already...

I have no problem with OTO, heck, I use them myself, that is what marketing is about...

What really 'grinds my gears' (cheers Peter Griffin) is when you buy a product and the OTO basically says 'Buy me or the thing you just bought is useless!' - and it happens... now that sort of OTO sucks!

But if it is a complimentary thing or maybe even an advanced technique on the same lines then that makes perfect sense to me, both as a buyer and a marketer.

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Azarna

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Alex Copeland

What really 'grinds my gears' (cheers Peter Griffin) is when you buy a product and the OTO basically says 'Buy me or the thing you just bought is useless!' - and it happens... now that sort of OTO sucks!

But if it is a complimentary thing or maybe even an advanced technique on the same lines then that makes perfect sense to me, both as a buyer and a marketer.

Hear, hear. I recently bought a Kindle book from Amazon. The book was pretty good, all in all, and had not been very expensive, but all the way through the author kept on about how he would explain this point properly in his 'course' and how once you had the 'course' such-and-such would be in your grasp.

Sure, the book had not cost much. But I still felt very let down, and no way I was buying his flipping course. He had lied to me, in my opinion.

I bought what was advertised as a book on a particular subject. The blurb said it contained all the information I would need! It did not say it was a taster/sampler for another product, nor that you needed to buy something else to achieve what he was claiming the book would help you acheive.

I would never buy from him again. Because I feel he was dishonest to me, tricked me. I don't care that what I bought was cheap, it was still not what he led me to believe it was.

This is the thing that surely must be avoided. If you are selling a product that claims to do something.. it should do that.

If you then want to offer another product that does something different fine, but it is a very horrible feeling to be sold something only to then find out you need to buy more to use it! It's like a child opening a present on Christmas morning only to then find out no one in the house has any of the right size batteries to play with it.

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Sandor Verebi 14 years ago

I don't understand why we need this much debate, at all. OTOs belong to making online/offline business. And everyone doing things the way he likes, as long as operating ethically and giving value to others.

As already mentioned, you can do upsells, cross sells right or bad way. As a customer, I buy the upsells, if those are interesting for me. If not, I go further. And I don't ruminate on for long.

As a marketer, I know, that could be a problem when the customer must choose from among four or five different offer - and the serving is not suitable. Less conscious customers may get confused and therefore decide not to buy anything.

And they aren't few, as we know. So, be smart. As Roger said, 'presentation' is the key.

Off to make some useful,

Sandor
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Selmicro

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Irsan Komarga

Like many of you, I buy WSO from time to time and now OTO is everywhere.
Don't you have OTO? When you are about to download the product after purchase then another offer on your face, jeezzz, what's up people.

*rants off*

The only thing worse is when they "force" you to "register" with your name and email address BEFORE you can get to a download page. Okay, I can see some merit in registering a purchase AFTER you download it and decide whether you are even going to use or rely upon it.

then there are the OTO's that break the chain that is supposed to lead to the download page... so they leave you depending on the download email to get thru the spam filters so you can get your product...

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CDarklock

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Irsan Komarga

jeezzz, what's up people.

How dare you not sell me every single thing you know for $10. Wait, you know more stuff? That's just gay. It's not fair that you know all this stuff I don't know. You should tell me for free. And I should get free updates for life whenever you learn more stuff.

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"The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers

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Seriously hate OTO after WSO these days

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