40 replies
Hello all. As you can tell from my post count, I'm pretty new at this game. Currently, I am focusing on PLR products, mostly because I have a writing background and a lot of different experiences.

Since I've been reading/researching about IM, which is about 8 months now, I couldn't help but notice how much info there is in the make-money-online niche. I understand that a lot of those marketers truly know what they're talking about--they've been successful in other niches. I also get the feeling that at least some of the gurus I came across seemed like frauds. Yes, they made money online, but it seemed (and I admit to not having all the information, but I don't think my premise is a stretch at all) that they made money online by teaching people how to make money online in the IM niche, and then, these people would (supposedly) go out and teach people how to make money online in the IM niche...ad infinitum. And so recently, I've begun to wonder where the real value is in all of that. Does that make sense?

Again, I fully acknowledge that a lot of people in the IM niche are offering quality products/info/trainings. I have learned a lot from some people and am very grateful. It's just hard to take some people seriously when the only niche they talk about is the IM niche.

Any thoughts?
#inbreeding
  • Profile picture of the author dadamson
    These type of people make me sick!

    That is absolutely correct, the "Make money online" niche is waaay saturated. And the majority of people in it have not made any money other than from selling these make money products.

    This has completely turned me off downloading or buying into nearly all make money products, a lot of them a scams.

    It's like that forum post: "Give me 1 million dollars and I will tell you how you can make a millions dollars over and over from a forum posts"
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    • Profile picture of the author Agent 23
      Originally Posted by dadamson View Post

      These type of people make me sick!

      That is absolutely correct, the "Make money online" niche is waaay saturated. And the majority of people in it have not made any money other than from selling these make money products.

      This has completely turned me off downloading or buying into nearly all make money products, a lot of them a scams.

      It's like that forum post: "Give me 1 million dollars and I will tell you how you can make a millions dollars over and over from a forum posts"
      Yeah, it makes me sick too. It just seems like there's no value at all! Could a parallel be drawn with the Fed just printing money?
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  • Profile picture of the author junkbox
    man...I completely agree with you on this. Now, my opinions on this are biased because I do not sell anything in the IM niche, but I think I have a good reason for that!

    See, my thought is that I should be able to sell a hard product first. If I can do that, then I would say I probably have some Internet Marketing skills and could then translate those skills into some type of product or service in the IM niche.

    I can honestly say I have never bought an IM product that truly made me any money, only my hard work has made me any money, so it just seems like kind of an empty niche to me and I would have trouble doing it unless I had a product which really added value...but obviously there is massive amounts of money to be made so, perhaps one of these days I will quite fighting it and jump in.

    And I am not saying every IM product is worthless, obviously there are plenty of people out there who have products that are truly worth it, I just want to make sure when I get in, I have a real valuable product.
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    • Profile picture of the author Agent 23
      Originally Posted by junkbox View Post

      See, my thought is that I should be able to sell a hard product first. If I can do that, then I would say I probably have some Internet Marketing skills and could then translate those skills into some type of product or service in the IM niche.

      And I am not saying every IM product is worthless, obviously there are plenty of people out there who have products that are truly worth it, I just want to make sure when I get in, I have a real valuable product.
      Exactly! I appreciate your integrity.
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  • Profile picture of the author Nightengale
    Welcome to the wonderful world of IM. You've discovered one of the major issues in the IM world. It IS very incestuous.

    I HATED that quality of it and deliberately got away from the WF for a while and went looking for information from those NOT in the "IM Cartel."

    And I found some INCREDIBLE mentors.

    I suggest you go looking for someone who's doing what you want to do and learn from them. And if learning from someone who does nothing but make money teaching others to make money (without having done it for themselves first), then make that one of your criteria for buying/learning from someone.

    Hope that helps!

    Michelle
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    • Profile picture of the author Agent 23
      Thanks for the response. And I'm happy that you had success.

      It's good advice. I have found one person here who is doing what I want to do--creating PLR--and she's helped me a lot with getting the ball rolling. To be fair, I don't spend much time here on the WF. I'm going slow and will launch my first info product (self-help niche) in a week's time.

      What niche do y'all work/play in?
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  • Profile picture of the author Ralph Moore
    Hi Dennis,

    There is a lot of truth to your comments and I believe some if it has to do with the fairly young age of the Internet, computers in general and a lot of other factors.

    I celebrated my 60th birthday today (well actually on the 4th) and I have been working with technology in one way or another since 1972.

    I bought my first pc in 1991 and ended up running an old FidoNet 4 line bulletin board before the Internet as we know it today 'grew up' - and it is still just an adolescent now.

    Some of the people who are considered 'gurus' today were the pioneers of the net a few years ago, and as they learned how to navigate the intricacies of selling in this new 'world', they naturally began teaching and selling what they had learned.

    It continues today.

    People teach what they know and I think the tendency is there to just gravitate to re-hashing what they have so recently learned.

    People who do well are those who take the tools and techniques and apply them to niches outside the IM arena.

    There have always been 'snake oil' salesmen and there always will be, but there will also always be a market for those who can teach it a little bit better or with a different slant or, well, whatever works 'now'.

    And now is always changing. My take anyway.

    Welcome to the forum.
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    • Profile picture of the author Agent 23
      Thanks, and happy Birthday!
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      • Profile picture of the author Nightengale
        I'm glad you found someone doing what you want to do. It took me quite a while to determine exactly what I wanted to do -- and my journey to my current business was very circuitous.

        I had a deep interest in all things marketing LONG before I discovered IM. My major in college was marketing and I started studying mail order and then direct marketing while still in college. I discovered Dan Kennedy when I was just 19, BEFORE I discovered IM. IM was just an extension of direct marketing.

        And once I discovered IM... well, it's like falling down the rabbit hole. There's a steep learning curve and way too much information to sort through. I faced the same overwhelm as everyone else.

        Marketing IS my passion, specifically direct marketing and Internet marketing. I freelanced as a copywriter for a while, but quickly discovered that a service-based business wasn't the kind of business I wanted. So I kept searching.

        I LOVE IM -- the high ROI and the leverage of it. Being any type of marketing consultant IS a legitimate, but I disliked the "inbreeding" aspect of IM that you mention. I HATE that -- and it feels unethical to me. So how to specialize in IM without only making all my money showing others how to do IM?

        Offline marketing -- showing offline business owners how to attract more clients and increase business through IM -- was the answer for me. It's completely legitimate and 100% ethical. I can feel good about it while still playing in IM.

        However, for some personal reasons, I want to keep my business almost entirely online. I don't even want to pursue my local businesses. (I have some physical problems which limit my mobility and so I need flexibility.) For me, the answer was specializing in one particular industry (instead of on geography: my local business community).

        Most of my copywriting clients were health and wellness professionals: nutritionists, fitness/personal trainers, etc. I discovered that, generally, they're very passionate about what they do. They're warm and personable: "touchy" "fee-ly" people who love what they do. BUT aren't very business-minded -- and need a LOT of help.

        Voila! A PERFECT target market.

        But I went a step further: I decided to think BIG and chose a very different business model: the traditional association. I created the International Association of Health & Wellness Professionals. My primary target market is chiropractors, nutritionists, massage therapists, personal/fitness trainers. Then of course, there are yoga professionals, acupuncturists, etc.... The list is long.

        Yes, there are already associations serving these markets. But they typically focus on the specialty side of it -- that is, becoming a better practitioner. This is very common. People think: "If I work on being the best at what I do, the world will beat a path to my door." So they attend conferences, lectures, etc. which focus on helping them become a better chiropractor, massage therapists, etc.

        But it's not true. They won't come just because you're the best. (Or better than most.) Good MARKETING is what builds your practice.

        Plus, good systems, etc.

        So I'm focusing on the BUSINESS side of it. And since I'm an association, I stand FAR ABOVE all of the individual marketing consultants who provide marketing services. (And most especially above the mom and pops just wanting to work from home in their jammies!)

        My first IM mentor was Ali Brown (AliBrown.com). Her Online Success Blueprint was a HUGE help. And I bought it because she WASN'T marketing to other IM wannabes. Her customers were REAL business owners. It was a critical distinction.

        My mentor last year (and the woman I currently consider my mentor) is Sheri McConnell. She founded and ran the National Association of Women Writers for 10 years -- and currently teaches others how to create and run association-type networks.

        She's very business-savvy and a successful Internet marketer in her own right. But she's a lot more than that.

        I'm THRILLED with my new business, which I'm pre-launching this fall and launching officially in Jan. I can feel proud of it. And my business model puts me head and shoulders above all of my "competition."

        Michelle
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  • Profile picture of the author Agent 23
    Congratulations! It sounds like you've had quite a journey and plenty of experience. Good luck!
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  • Profile picture of the author Steve Faber
    It is incestuous, but it also changes with time, as once active members (here, and in gasp!!, other forums, too) become less so, either through success, or lack of it, and drift away. Years ago, you used to see the "guru's gurus" like Kern, Filsaime, and a few of the others on here semi-regularly.

    They're pretty much gone now, and some others who used to frequent this place have stopped hanging around so much as well. New blood has taken their place, and the cycle will repeat anew, as we reveal marketing secrets to each other,,, for a price, of course.
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    LMAO - Dennis - I've never heard this issue so succinctly described before -- and I love it.

    Ya see, it's like this, Dennis:

    Once apon a time when people wanted to go into business, they needed an idea for the business. Then they needed bunches of bucks to start out with - for equipment to do their business with, for advertising, for the education to learn whatever skills they were lacking, for supplies........well you get the drift.

    Then one day it suddenly became possible to go online and start a business with almost no money, no equipment, no building......
    The whole cost involved could be handled for only the price of a domain and a hosting account - 5 or 10 big ones a month.

    So some ingenious people who were doing well in business figured it was all so incredibly simple that they would do it. These individuals also figured out that other people would pay them to learn how.

    So a bunch of people that weren't quite so intelligent as the first guys wanted to have a business, too. They bought the training manuals from the first guys and started their own businesses. The more bright members of this wave figured out new ways to get traffic to sites and new ways to do business and started making some good bucks..........so they put out some of their own information mixed with the info that the first guys taught them........and a bunch of people who really wanted to make money but couldn't make a business offline if their life depended on it bought the info from the first guys, who were by this time branching out into other niches on the net. Not being able to really think of their own ideas and not having much education in business, they decided if they just rearranged the information a little so it wouldn't seem like plagiarism, they could just resell the information to the next even more clueless wave of people who had not a bat's chance in hell of ever making it past burger flipper in the real world ................and.........

    Well, you get the drift.

    There are some really sharp people in the IM field - and many of them are in niches other than IM, but there are still a couple that are actually able to be innovative and find something a little new that hasn't been beat to freaking death already ........but..........the ease and lack of expense of starting up a money making venture on the net has brought people into the field who have never taken the time to learn much of anything offline and continue doing so online. They CAN'T branch out into their own businesses because the only one they have seen anyone really go indepth enough to copy is in IM.

    I know that sounds cynical, but it's the damned truth. If you don't believe me -- take a gander at the WSO section and see how many truly original products you can find there.

    And that's the reason, being a writer myself, that I don't write much material for people in IM niches -- I just don't believe there's that much new or interesting to say about it. When there is, I say it. When there's not, the writing skills take me wherever I want to go so I don't get bored enough to eat my computer.

    Hey - welcome to the forum. Nice to meet ya.
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    • Profile picture of the author Agent 23
      Thanks Sal, your brief history of online business makes perfect sense. And I agree with a lot of what you said. It has been beat to death. Sure, some people may take the same information and say it differently, and therefore, some other people will hear it, but it doesn't seem that there's much new under the sun. I've bought quite a few WSOs that promised to be amazing and groundbreaking, but it was basically the same forumla...design website to sell/review product, generate traffic and earn a gazillion dollars an hour. And I can't tell you how frustrated I've been when more than half of an e-book/video course is explaining how to buy a domain, set up wordpress and an autoresponder. Dude...where's my value?!?

      I will say that with the ever changing nature of the Internet, that there will always be new techniques to learn, new traffic avenues to take advantage of.

      Glad you had a laugh!!

      Dennis
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      • Profile picture of the author HeySal
        Originally Posted by Dennis Dz View Post

        I will say that with the ever changing nature of the Internet, that there will always be new techniques to learn, new traffic avenues to take advantage of.

        Dennis
        Sure there will - but most of it has gone the way of offline business now - something you can buy a textbook on, learn the general principles, then have enough background to keep up with the changes on your own. When one actually takes place that is large enough to require a little bit of peripheral mindset and methodolgy change to require a new product to educate people about, you can be on top of it -- and everyone else gets to figure out how to copy what you said and put out some more hash because all they are learning is enough to make copies of originals to sell.

        It works well for people who are motivated, sharp, and willing to put some actual effort into their education. Some of those who copy even get over for awhile until they run out of ways to copy stuff that's already rehash when they get their hands on it. Then there's a few that make it just because they are good at teaching the established methods to new people who don't have enough background to figure it out by themselves (which is where I stand with technology. I copped out of that one and went for a tech instead).

        Then there's CD, who you met in a post just above your last one. He's making it because...um....gee....nobody has quite figured CD out yet. He's good, but he's so far out there nobody can figure out what it is that he's good at. Ah well, he's honest and makes money at it, whatever it is so he's got something right. It will be interesting to see what the copycatters do with his stuff when they figure out what his stuff is. :confused:
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        • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
          Originally Posted by Dennis Dz View Post

          I don't think it's hard for some of these courses, ebooks to completely leave out the IM niche and use yellow tractors as their example, instead of aiming the content specifically at IM.
          If I use yellow tractors as my example, people say "I'm not in the yellow tractor niche" and don't buy my product.

          If I say "this works in any niche," people say "this information isn't specific enough" and don't buy my product.

          But if I say "this works in the IM niche," people nod knowingly and whisper "the secret is selling IM products because that's where all the money is," and buy my product.

          Because people are stupid.

          If it works in IM, it works everywhere. Figure out why it works. Determine by analogy how that is like your own market. Connect the dots. Transform the approach.

          The conventional wisdom is that income claims sell IM products, right?

          Well, buddy, here's the reality: income claims are just one of many ways to say "I did what you are trying to do."

          Teaching someone to make money? Show them the money you made.


          Teaching someone to get traffic? Show them the traffic you got.


          Teaching someone to pick up chicks? Show them the chicks you picked up.


          Teaching someone to buy yellow tractors? Show them the yellow tractors you bought.

          Teaching someone to get rid of cold sores? Show them the cold sores you got rid of.

          That's why all my products are about making ebooks and videos and graphics and web sites. Because I've made those myself, and I can show them to you.

          What are you teaching? What are people paying you to learn? Show them you did it. Show them a picture. A screenshot. Whatever. And even if you can't, understand what you really need to do:

          You have to make them believe.

          And 24 hours a day, the WSO forum is full of people trying to make you believe. Go look there. Look at what they say. Look at why they say it. Ask yourself how well they're doing and why. Do you believe them? Why? What makes you believe them? How could you make someone believe you?

          Sal nailed it:

          Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

          He's good, but he's so far out there nobody can figure out what it is that he's good at.
          I'm So Meta, Even This Acronym.

          Stop looking at the trees, and start looking at the forest.
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          • Profile picture of the author stevenco
            Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

            Stop looking at the trees, and start looking at the forest.
            I've spent a lot time looking at the forest but now I want to grow my own type of tree.
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          • Profile picture of the author Agent 23
            Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

            If I use yellow tractors as my example, people say "I'm not in the yellow tractor niche" and don't buy my product.

            If I say "this works in any niche," people say "this information isn't specific enough" and don't buy my product.

            But if I say "this works in the IM niche," people nod knowingly and whisper "the secret is selling IM products because that's where all the money is," and buy my product.

            Because people are stupid.

            If it works in IM, it works everywhere. Figure out why it works. Determine by analogy how that is like your own market. Connect the dots. Transform the approach.

            The conventional wisdom is that income claims sell IM products, right?

            Well, buddy, here's the reality: income claims are just one of many ways to say "I did what you are trying to do."

            Teaching someone to make money? Show them the money you made.


            Teaching someone to get traffic? Show them the traffic you got.


            Teaching someone to pick up chicks? Show them the chicks you picked up.


            Teaching someone to buy yellow tractors? Show them the yellow tractors you bought.

            Teaching someone to get rid of cold sores? Show them the cold sores you got rid of.

            That's why all my products are about making ebooks and videos and graphics and web sites. Because I've made those myself, and I can show them to you.

            What are you teaching? What are people paying you to learn? Show them you did it. Show them a picture. A screenshot. Whatever. And even if you can't, understand what you really need to do:

            You have to make them believe.

            And 24 hours a day, the WSO forum is full of people trying to make you believe. Go look there. Look at what they say. Look at why they say it. Ask yourself how well they're doing and why. Do you believe them? Why? What makes you believe them? How could you make someone believe you?

            Sal nailed it:



            I'm So Meta, Even This Acronym.

            Stop looking at the trees, and start looking at the forest.
            I hear ya. Thanks for the words. So you write ebooks about writing ebooks and make videos about making videos. I dig it. I very much like the meta concept, program the programs that program the programs.
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      • Profile picture of the author stevenco
        Originally Posted by Dennis Dz View Post

        I will say that with the ever changing nature of the Internet, that there will always be new techniques to learn, new traffic avenues to take advantage of.
        Dennis
        This is something I always have in mind before looking for the refund button. I've looked at a lot of IM products over the past 10 years or so. If they fail to show me something I didn't know already they don't get to keep my money.

        I know there are some contributors here have recently got me motivated with some WSO's. To those people I'd like to say thank you for not wasting my time, you have earnt my respect, and my dollars.
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  • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
    Originally Posted by Dennis Dz View Post

    It's just hard to take some people seriously when the only niche they talk about is the IM niche.
    What do you think would happen if I said "I work in this niche and do these things?"

    Eight million spamming jackholes would read it, then dogpile on that niche and do all those same things. So it's irresponsible for me to do that.

    And all the places I'm doing those things will make rules that say "don't do these things." So it's also bad for my business to do that.

    So please, feel free not to take me seriously... while I don't do things that are irresponsible and bad for my business.

    Although I can, of course, see why you would not take someone like that seriously. :rolleyes:
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    • Profile picture of the author Agent 23
      Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

      What do you think would happen if I said "I work in this niche and do these things?"

      Eight million spamming jackholes would read it, then dogpile on that niche and do all those same things. So it's irresponsible for me to do that.

      And all the places I'm doing those things will make rules that say "don't do these things." So it's also bad for my business to do that.

      So please, feel free not to take me seriously... while I don't do things that are irresponsible and bad for my business.

      Although I can, of course, see why you would not take someone like that seriously. :rolleyes:
      Good point! Like in the IM niche, right? I don't think it's hard for some of these courses, ebooks to completely leave out the IM niche and use yellow tractors as their example, instead of aiming the content specifically at IM.
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  • Profile picture of the author AlexSid
    You hit the nail on the head Dennis. The IM space is definitely a strange world indeed. Since I got into marketing in 2007 I have seen the rise of the "guru" and the truck load of people who enter IM and learn how easy it is to sell to the newbies.

    Now there is nothing wrong with that as long as it is done ethically but when greed is the only factor in mind, this can cause problems and the end product is usually very shoddy.
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  • Profile picture of the author davejug1
    Marketers naturally navigate towards the money and in times like this, the operative thoughts on a lot of peoples minds are making money.

    While the economy is in meltdown, people worry about the security of their job (if they still have one) and they might look to make a small investment in order to secure a brighter future and in an economic downturn, a good internet marketer will know this.

    As times get better, they might change focus, as an example, people start feeling more confident in their jobs, they go out more, enjoy themselves more, they start putting on weight due to their love of a good steak (that they could not previously afford) and they might need help in reducing their weight, or they might be able to afford that gym membership again.

    I don't resent any good internet marketer focussing on the make money niche in bad times, it's smart business, the problem is that most of the stuff out there is theoretical but marketed as complete. The issue is with the quality of stuff out there, not with the focus on IM.
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  • Profile picture of the author Istvan Horvath
    Shouldn't we change the IM in the title to MMO?
    Just wondering...
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    • Profile picture of the author Agent 23
      Maybe you've got a point there...
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  • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
    Banned
    I've made money from some MMO products I've bought. More often than not, I do. But I don't buy indiscriminately. I buy from people I respect from the forum and usually from their signatures, rather than from the WSO forum. There are plenty of people who have made money with the techniques they share.

    If you're looking for empty dreams, you'll find them. If you're looking for solid business techniques, you'll also find them.
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  • Profile picture of the author Converting Copy
    MMO inbreeding sounds more apt but there is a lot of crap. I bought a MMO via IM info product 5-6 years ago when I first got into it and it was garbage; something I could've learned in a couple of hours on the Google adwords site for free.

    That's in part why I made a course (but made it completely free). There's lots of great free information out there for learning IM but it's not as organized or people don't believe it's as organized and without a price tag there is little perceived value.

    That makes sense from a rational point of view, though, why would someone give away something if it will make you money; so there's a lot of cynicism and doubt there and that's why expensive information products and courses continue to sell even if there's little value in there, mostly because of the price tag.
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    • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
      Originally Posted by Converting Copy View Post

      it was garbage; something I could've learned in a couple of hours on the Google adwords site for free.
      These two things do not go together.

      Time is money.

      1. How much did you pay for this product?

      2. How much is "a couple of hours" of your time worth?

      Mine's been into three figures for years. I save money with every thing I buy.
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      • Profile picture of the author Ryan David
        Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

        These two things do not go together.

        Time is money.

        1. How much did you pay for this product?

        2. How much is "a couple of hours" of your time worth?

        Mine's been into three figures for years. I save money with every thing I buy.
        I'm not saying that some products don't save time, but most people justify WAY too many MMO purchases using this rationale.

        Most people already have enough information to execute, but they choose to consume more information anyways. It's not really a hypothetical either, since most people will tell you they don't actually use most of the stuff they buy. So you're..

        1) Wasting money buying the product.
        2) Wasting time reading the product.
        3) Wasting more money because of the opportunity cost of switching gears and reviewing the product.
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  • Profile picture of the author JB
    IM inbreeding is the reason I got completely dismayed and quit doing it about 10 years ago. There were a few 'gurus' who were making money telling other people how to make money. It got to the point (and this hasn't really changed) that there were thousands of people trying the exact same business model: teaching people how to make money, without having actually made any money themselves. I know not everyone does it but there are a LOT of people that do and it makes it very difficult to find reliable information about anything. There are only so many times you can rearrange a bunch of words on a page before the meaning starts to become blurred. Consequently, getting involved in certain areas of IM (and/or MMO) without genuinely understanding them and having a proven track record demonstrating this is like playing Chinese whispers.
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  • Profile picture of the author trytolearnmore
    I believe it is possible for a newbie to write about making money online, but he just has to be honest about his income.

    Not to sound controversial, but i think it is important for IM to have scammers and frauds. Making mistakes and getting cheated is a painful, but necessary experience. This makes us stronger and allows us to to cut through the BS much quicker.
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  • Profile picture of the author shane_k
    I remember when I was quite young and I was reading one of my fathers business magazines and saw an ad on there on how to make money.

    I told my father as a joke wouldn't it be funny if you bought the persons product in this ad on them teaching you how to make money, and they told you the way to make money is to put ads in business magazines offering to teach people how to make money?

    He did not like that at all. lol.

    One thing I do find funny about IM or MMO inbreeding as you call it, is in a way the people who do it create thier own competition.

    You don't see Mcdonalds going over to Wendys or Dairy Queen and offering to sell them secrets on how to sell better hamburgers do you? No, because Wendy's and Dairy Queen are the competition.

    But in the IM world people sell to their (possible) competition. Yes they are customers but it is possible that say Frank Kern could possibly sell a product to a guy or girl today, and 2 years down the road that person could become the next "guru" and put Frank Kern out of business. I wonder if the guru's or anyone else who sells make money online products thinks about that?

    Shane_K
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  • Profile picture of the author bushpeter
    Banned
    [DELETED]
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    • Profile picture of the author TheEye
      Anybody who wants to be successful at Internet Marketing needs to become an expert at Internet Marketing.

      Some will use this information for good. Some for bad. But most people will not use it at all.

      Generally the people who teach are one or two levels above the beginners. If they are beyond that they generally have trouble relating to why beginners are having trouble. It is easy for them so it should be equally as easy for everybody else.

      When knowledge changes fast, it can't be learnt in schools or universities. It has to be learnt from the people who are doing it. By the time they have worked out what the solution is, the problem has changed.

      If people who have only got part of the solution worked out are not allowed their say then no information will be passed on.

      Remember the internet is a place to look for opinions not facts.

      If you want facts, find a scientist. After a couple of years of study and research he/she will be able to tell you what works today and why it works. Unfortunately by that time the information will be a couple of years out of date.

      The difference between a good and a bad system is just how much effort it takes to make it work. What usually keeps a system from working is people giving up (or finding a better system before they get it working).
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  • Profile picture of the author Terry Hatfield
    The thing is there are a lot of fake gurus who have only sold in the IM niche. This doesn't mean that they are not skilled marketers.

    If they was able to sell to the IM niche then they already have the skills they need to sell to other niches.

    Maybe they haven't claimed their knowledge by selling to other niches but if they are making a full time living selling to IM'ers then they probably have some stuff they can teach you that is fully transferable to selling to a lot of different markets.
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  • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
    Banned
    Originally Posted by Dennis Dz View Post

    It's just hard to take some people seriously when the only niche they talk about is the IM niche.
    Not for me: if someone's worth my while taking seriously, I know they're not going to talk about their main niches, just as I'm not, myself.

    I make my living in 8 other niches which I neither disclose nor discuss, but in this forum I talk about internet marketing because it's an internet marketing forum, and I talk about making money online because I post mostly in this folder, which is subtitled "Where we talk about making money".

    I do, however, find it hard to take some people seriously when the only niche they know anything about is the so-called "IM niche" (it isn't actually a niche at all, and anyway you meant "MMO", I think, and that isn't actually a "niche", either).

    Typically, you can quite easily tell when that's the case, because they're obviously here solely to promote stuff, and pretty often they don't know what they're talking about anyway, and one hardly needs to be Einstein to "see through them". To that extent, I agree with you ... but that's actually a very different gescheft from what you said.
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  • Profile picture of the author Ryan David
    But to your original point, I wouldn't paint everyone with the same brush.

    Most of the major gurus of today actually had some practical experience outside of IM. But in 2011, that most likely was about 8 years ago for most of them. Ever since then, they are basically just promoters. The smart ones setup a proper sales funnel and created a suite of products that have a nice price point for most, people like Brad Callen. Other people just chose to focus on selling high priced products to their lists. That gravy train ended in about 2007.

    Like others have said, you need to find people that do what you want to do. Some marketing advice is true no matter what you want to get into. But you hear a lot of advice like "sell a low-priced product, have an upsell, and then sell them a high-priced coaching program on the backend". Obviously, those people are dealing with information. That's not helping someone who is interested in selling widgets. So you need to find people that do what you want to do.
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    • Profile picture of the author jasonl70
      This is mind set is just soooo wrong.

      They're teaching people how to market and sell online.

      If THEY don't know how to market and sell online, then their product would never sell and they wouldn't be marketing "guru's".

      Their product is marketing!

      This is NOT the same thing as someone positioning themselves as a real estate guru and selling "get rich in real estate" products, when they only made his/her money in information marketing.


      A "guru" isn't going to instruct you to say "make 1 million doing this" - he will tell you to sell the end results. for a biz-op product, it might be the $$, or it might be the lifestyle. But the same approach/concept is used in every niche, online or off, info product or physical.

      I have purchased plenty of expensive "guru products" (yanik, jeff walker, frank kern, eban pagan, etc), and none of them teach you "make money by selling mmo products".

      question: if someone made their living off of wso's, and offered a wso showing how they did it - would anyone take issue with it? my guess - not many would...

      Originally Posted by shane_k View Post

      You don't see Mcdonalds going over to Wendys or Dairy Queen and offering to sell them secrets on how to sell better hamburgers do you? No, because Wendy's and Dairy Queen are the competition.
      McDonalds is not the business of consulting, teaching, selling information. If your expertise is in marketing products, it is only natural to consider marketing your own product (and if your expertise is marketing - well, then a marketing product makes total sense).

      Originally Posted by Ryan David View Post

      But you hear a lot of advice like "sell a low-priced product, have an upsell, and then sell them a high-priced coaching program on the backend". Obviously, those people are dealing with information. That's not helping someone who is interested in selling widgets. So you need to find people that do what you want to do.
      ahh, but change that to "sell a low-priced product, have an upsell, and then sell them a higher-priced product on the backend", and it often works

      The trick is understanding concepts vs implementation details...
      Signature

      -Jason

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  • Profile picture of the author JackPowers
    Good you realized this already OP, it will save you tonnes of frustation from following obsolete methods. Way too many bottom feeding piranhas looking for scraps in the IM niche.

    This forum is one of the worst in this regard. Not because of the people here, but because of the size of the forum and the luctrative WSO section.

    The basics of IM is very simple:

    Make a website
    Get traffic with SEO or PPC
    Convert traffic to dollars

    The more you get your hands dirty with the above and the sooner you make the nessecary mistakes, the more profitable you will be in the end.
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  • Profile picture of the author JackPowers
    Jason,

    You don't need 10 email long sales preps to get a commission for an iphone or electric samovar (go on lurkers, try this niche), nor do you need to pimp your stuff to get a click on Adsense. What you basically need is just to add value to a product review or write some good content and then monetize.

    Marketing skills are great, but in most niches, all you need is a good website and knowledge of how to promote it.

    Focusing solely on infoproducts is not the easiest way to go for most people imo.

    I guess it differs for everyone. Those who have a natural ability to market and create relationships with people will probably prefer the email to clickbank route, while others will prefer niche sites or authority site building.
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  • Profile picture of the author Rod Cortez
    Again, I fully acknowledge that a lot of people in the IM niche are offering quality products/info/trainings. I have learned a lot from some people and am very grateful. It's just hard to take some people seriously when the only niche they talk about is the IM niche.

    Any thoughts?
    I deal mostly with marketers who are not in the MMO niche. And in many of these niches, it's just as incestuous. However, there are also a core group of do-gooders, so to speak (or write), that offer real value to their customer base and genuinely care about their company, reputation, etc.

    These are the marketers that I search for and work with. Just as in the IM niche, it's dangerous to paint a broad brush because there are so many different types of marketers. Some are one-person operations, others have a staff of 80 VAs in over 10 different countries.

    Some only care about making money, even if it means flat out lying. Some are great teachers and genuinely care about providing value. Others are fervent innovators and serial entrepreneurs who have online businesses and offline business (Stephen Pierce is a good example). Some only teach in the MMO niche, some don't, and some do both.

    While there are different IM "cartels" out there, you also have to keep in mind that they all started off as newbies. And during their IM journey they befriended one another. When the first one saw great success he/she helped out their friends by doing JVs with them.

    Now some of these IM cartels has lost their way, forgetting about where they came from or what it was like being a newbie. Some have disbanded, making way for a newer, younger, and far more aggressive marketer (I saw an offer in this very forum where the advertiser flat out insults his readers and calls them losers). But there are those that are still genuine and like to help people, though because of their big name, they're not able to reach everyone.

    I've learned to reserve judgment now because many times I don't know the full story. Though sometimes it can be pretty blatant when you read some horrific sales copy and after all the reading or video presentation you're still not sure what they are offering. I usually stay away from those.

    If you want to make it in IM, regardless of the niche then provide value while focusing on the LTV (life time value) of your customer base, use the right distribution channels to get the word out, never stop promoting your business, and learn to network with people that have the same values that you do. And like the late Steve Jobs once said, "follow your heart."

    RoD
    Signature
    "Your personal philosophy is the greatest determining factor in how your life works out."
    - Jim Rohn
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    • Profile picture of the author rally2win
      Thanks for the insight here.

      One thing about inbreeding or incest, even in the IM context, is it also tends to produce defective and/or risky results. IF IM people keep selling (or pushing off) programs or services to each other and not the external world, then there is no traction nor progress in what should be applied to other potential customers. Like preaching to the choir.

      This is especially detrimental if no one outside of the group is paying attention or buying. It could be great to report stats that IM'ers are flocking to your product and you hope it does but if it does not work with others.....
      R2W
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