Can we resell "used" or "unused" WSOs?

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I kinda wondered, if we could sell all those WSOs that we never used or the ones we no longer use?

It could obviously create a quite dangerous secondary market...
What do you think guys? Official rules anywhere?


Thomas
#resell #unused #wsos
  • Depends if the WSO belongs to you, meaning whether u have the license.

    If u have then its not a problem.

    If its not then its copyright of intellectual property.

    Although its not that serious. If the person behind the WSO wants to pursue it then u might get into alot of trouble. =)

    I dont see how this can be a good market. Personally. But that is my opinion.
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    • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
      Originally Posted by ConvertingTraffic View Post


      If u have then its not a problem.

      If its not then its copyright of intellectual property.

      Although its not that serious. If the person behind the WSO wants to pursue it then u might get into alot of trouble. =)
      Do you not think getting in a lot of trouble is quite serious?
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      • Originally Posted by Richard Van View Post

        Do you not think getting in a lot of trouble is quite serious?
        hahaha!

        what i meant was, its not that serious when you think of it as it happens here all the time.

        BUT if the WSO owner decides to take action, which seldom is the case THEN its a big problem.

        Do i make sense? hahaha.
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      • I think you might find this issue is considerably less cut-and-dried than sellers of WSOs would have you think. There is a limitation on the right of copyright holders to control the change of ownership of a particular copy of a work. This is called the First-Sale Doctrine.

        IANAL, this is not legal advice, and if someone sues you for reselling your copy of a particular WSO, I'll be sitting on the sidelines munching popcorn.

        fLufF
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        • Profile picture of the author Suthan M
          Originally Posted by ConvertingTraffic View Post

          hahaha!

          what i meant was, its not that serious when you think of it as it happens here all the time.
          i just want to make sure I am getting you right. First you say "copyright infringement is OK as long as the owner does not come after you. Now, you are saying that copyright infringement happens all the time here in WF.. Wow, such statements..

          Am I understanding you wrong :confused:

          BUT if the WSO owner decides to take action, which seldom is the case THEN its a big problem.

          Do i make sense? hahaha.
          No, you don't make sense.

          Copyright infringement is WRONG lawfully, and ethically whether it happens to celebrities, to normal people, to businesses, in WF and also out of WF whether legal action is taken and even if it is not taken
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          • Profile picture of the author AUKev
            This is an interesting topic that I think would be hard to nail down the right answer. I understand that product creators (copyright holders) have the right to offer resale rights et al., but I am not sure how a product owner can prevent the transfer of ownership of the original license (one time).

            If I purchase MS Office from Amazon and after a year decide to sell it, I have that right. If I purchase a copy of a keyword research tool (stand alone software), as long as I only sell 1 copy and quit using my copy then is it no different than any other commercial software purchased?

            Not much different with a book right? I purchase a book on SEO from Barnes and Noble and sell on E-bay 3 weeks later. Could I not do the same with a PDF purchased online on SEO?

            How are e-books (Kindle) handled as far as ownership and the ability to transfer handled? How are iTunes downloads handled? You can sell a CD, LP or cassette tape, but can you sell an iTunes download?

            Not that I have ever re-sold a product, I am curious how you can prevent a customer from selling 1 copy provided they remove their own?
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          • Profile picture of the author Tina Golden
            Originally Posted by fluffythewondercat View Post

            I think you might find this issue is considerably less cut-and-dried than sellers of WSOs would have you think. There is a limitation on the right of copyright holders to control the change of ownership of a particular copy of a work. This is called the First-Sale Doctrine.

            IANAL, this is not legal advice, and if someone sues you for reselling your copy of a particular WSO, I'll be sitting on the sidelines munching popcorn.

            fLufF
            --
            First-Sale Doctrine applies to physical products and I don't believe could be applied to digital works seeing as you can't actually pass the physical file over and not still have it yourself.
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            • Profile picture of the author SirThomas
              Originally Posted by Tina Golden View Post

              First-Sale Doctrine applies to physical products and I don't believe could be applied to digital works seeing as you can't actually pass the physical file over and not still have it yourself.
              Delete it from your hard drive. As simple as that. Several years ago, I was asked to do that by a software company.
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              • Profile picture of the author Istvan Horvath
                Originally Posted by SirThomas View Post

                Delete it from your hard drive. As simple as that. Several years ago, I was asked to do that by a software company.
                Honestly, if you sell a digital product and the buyer asks for a refund... do you REALLY believe he's going to delete it from his hard drive???
                :p
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                • Profile picture of the author SirThomas
                  Originally Posted by Istvan Horvath View Post

                  Honestly, if you sell a digital product and the buyer asks for a refund... do you REALLY believe he's going to delete it from his hard drive???
                  :p
                  I know what you mean. They probably won't. Plus, with a refund scenario, you'd actually have to ask them to delete those files. It's not really synonymous with re-selling.


                  Thomas
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                • Profile picture of the author Christine2011
                  Originally Posted by Istvan Horvath View Post

                  Honestly, if you sell a digital product and the buyer asks for a refund... do you REALLY believe he's going to delete it from his hard drive???
                  :p
                  In my simple opinion.... I don't think so...
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    • Profile picture of the author Suthan M
      Originally Posted by ConvertingTraffic View Post

      Depends if the WSO belongs to you, meaning whether u have the license.

      If u have then its not a problem.

      If its not then its copyright of intellectual property.

      Although its not that serious. If the person behind the WSO wants to pursue it then u might get into alot of trouble. =)

      I dont see how this can be a good market. Personally. But that is my opinion.
      I have seen a lot of bad advice.. This fits right in that category
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      • Originally Posted by Suthan M View Post

        I have seen a lot of bad advice.. This fits right in that category
        WHy so?

        I have explain what i meant. =)
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        • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
          Originally Posted by ConvertingTraffic View Post

          WHy so?

          I have explain what i meant. =)
          Well you seem to be suggesting that it's a regular thing to buy WSO's and resell them as your own and the only time you get in trouble is when a WSO owner finds out.

          I wasn't aware this was common practise, how did you find out about this going on "all the time"?
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        • Profile picture of the author Bekah Howard
          Originally Posted by ConvertingTraffic View Post

          hahaha!

          what i meant was, its not that serious when you think of it as it happens here all the time.

          BUT if the WSO owner decides to take action, which seldom is the case THEN its a big problem.

          Do i make sense? hahaha.
          Originally Posted by Suthan M View Post

          I have seen a lot of bad advice.. This fits right in that category
          Originally Posted by ConvertingTraffic View Post

          WHy so?

          I have explain what i meant. =)
          What Suthan (and others) are saying is that just because the chances of getting caught are slim, that is NEVER and excuse to do something illegal.

          As for the OP's question, the simple answer is no unless you have resale rights.

          WSO's are not physical products. When you "sell" them to someone else, you still have them, but you have now illegally made money off of it.

          If you feel the need to recover money lost on poorly made WSOs, then ask for refunds on them (and only them!) as long as you are within your refund period.
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  • Profile picture of the author JennSpencerIM
    I'm not sure if there's rules on the WF about it anywhere, BUT I do know that on almost all of them I've seen or purchased (if not all!!) it clearly states that it may not be transferred, shared, or sold. I definitely have this on all my products as well!!
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  • Oh by the way, are u really knighted? Sir thomas?
    =)
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    • Profile picture of the author Christian Chan
      Originally Posted by ConvertingTraffic View Post

      Oh by the way, are u really knighted? Sir thomas?
      =)
      I think the logic is quite right. If he's really knighted, he would be here.
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    • Profile picture of the author SirThomas
      Originally Posted by ConvertingTraffic View Post

      Oh by the way, are u really knighted? Sir thomas?
      =)
      You think I shouldn't be
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
    Hi Thomas,

    I'm not quite sure what you mean, but will try to answer.

    If you are asking can you resell someone else's product, then it depends if you have resale rights or not. It doesn't matter if it's "used" or "unused" because it's not yours to sell.

    If you are asking if you can run a WSO with someone else's product, then the answer is always no.

    If you are asking if you can resell a product you created as a WSO, then it shouldn't be a problem.

    If it is a WSO that you purchased from someone else and you have resale rights, then you can sell it anywhere except the WSO section.

    All the best,
    Michael
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    • Profile picture of the author Venturetothetop
      Originally Posted by Michael Oksa View Post

      It doesn't matter if it's "used" or "unused" because it's not yours to sell.
      Interesting question, and interesting answer here, but not sure how legally tight it would be if challenged at a very high level.

      If you purchased something, by definition it is your and therefore logically maybe yours to resell.

      I KNOW FIRST HAND the big video game boys banded together and started stating 'not for resale' on all their games, in an effort to cut out the 'second hand games' market but that challenge fell flat on its face because of the fact they had sold a product and not a licence to a product. They advertised it as a product and people could purchase and not simply a license for their one console.

      If the same argument is taken with not only WSO's but all marketing products, then we are selling products and not simply licences, then maybe, just maybe the OP has a legal argument that could make some sense.
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      • Profile picture of the author tpw
        Originally Posted by Venturetothetop View Post

        If the same argument is taken with not only WSO's but all marketing products, then were we are selling products and not simply licences, then maybe, just maybe the OP has a legal argument that could make some sense.

        If the same argument held water for digital products (as opposed to physical products), then he could only sell one copy of the item. As soon as he sold the second copy, he would be in violation of copyright.
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        • Profile picture of the author Venturetothetop
          Originally Posted by tpw View Post

          If the same argument held water for digital products (as opposed to physical products), then he could only sell one copy of the item. As soon as he sold the second copy, he would be in violation of copyright.
          Correct, but he would still have the right to sell it once....

          That is an argument which i think would stand up well in any high level court should it ever go that far.
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        • Profile picture of the author eskimoto
          Originally Posted by tpw View Post

          If the same argument held water for digital products (as opposed to physical products), then he could only sell one copy of the item. As soon as he sold the second copy, he would be in violation of copyright.

          and i think thats what he was on about when he said about unused WSO. he bought one, never opened it, doest think he will need it so he wants to get rid of his copy. i dont think he meant like creating a wso thread here and reselling them in multiple copies.

          i am confident that if i bought a digital product from you, then sold it to my mate and afterwards deleted it from all my storage devices you wouldnt have a case against me. i can even download you product from torrent and its ok ine the eye of the law as long as i dont distribute it (everywhere apart from USA).

          obviously the problem is that this would be to tempting to most of the people and they would be reselling multiple copies which is definitely illiega
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      • Originally Posted by Venturetothetop View Post

        If the same argument is taken with not only WSO's but all marketing products, then were we are selling products and not simply licences, then maybe, just maybe the OP has a legal argument that could make some sense.
        Yes, that's the argument the software companies use: They claim they're only selling a license. But some courts have disagreed, saying the consumer bought a product, not a license, and thus the first-sale doctrine applies. The issue is far from settled.

        I have a bit of a quandry, having bought an ebook (not a WSO) sold on Fiverr. The copyright holder explicitly prohibits "reposts, resale or distribution." But under the first-sale doctrine, I don't see how he can keep me from selling my personal copy. Obviously selling multiple copies would be wrong and I wouldn't do that.

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        • Profile picture of the author SirThomas
          Originally Posted by fluffythewondercat View Post

          Yes, that's the argument the software companies use: They claim they're only selling a license. But some courts have disagreed, saying the consumer bought a product, not a license, and thus the first-sale doctrine applies. The issue is far from settled.

          I have a bit of a quandry, having bought an ebook (not a WSO) sold on Fiverr. The copyright holder explicitly prohibits "reposts, resale or distribution." But under the first-sale doctrine, I don't see how he can keep me from selling my personal copy. Obviously selling multiple copies would be wrong and I wouldn't do that.

          fLufF
          --
          He can't and that was my point.

          It's totally different from selling to multiple purchasers or even giving it away to "multiple" people.


          Thomas
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          • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
            Originally Posted by SirThomas View Post

            I kinda wondered, if we could sell all those WSOs that we never used or the ones we no longer use?

            It could obviously create a quite dangerous secondary market...
            What do you think guys? Official rules anywhere?


            Thomas
            Originally Posted by SirThomas View Post

            He can't and that was my point.

            It's totally different from selling to multiple purchasers or even giving it away to "multiple" people.


            Thomas
            Yet another lame bait and switch.

            You didn't actually want an opinion, you wanted to make a point.

            Boo! Hiss!

            If you want to make a point, make a point, but don't start a thread under the guise of "asking for opinions" just so you can climb up on your soapbox. To be clear, I have no problem with you being on a soapbox, but have the guts to get up on it in the first post, instead of baiting people.

            You didn't want a discussion, you wanted an argument.

            Just callin' it like I see it.

            All the best,
            Michael
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      • Profile picture of the author copywriter
        Originally Posted by Venturetothetop View Post

        Interesting question, and interesting answer here, but not sure how legally tight it would be if challenged at a very high level.

        If you purchased something, by definition it is your and therefore logically maybe yours to resell.
        This kind of 'I Read-it-on-the-Back-of-a-Cereal-Box' advice is why people always, always, always need to speak with a lawyer. We had a scumbag in the UK start selling our copyrighted materials.

        I contacted him and he basically told me to 'F' Off.

        We not only took legal action, we received a considerable settlement in compensation. We also contacted the guys ISP threatening to sue them and they deleted his website along with about 100 accounts he was hosting.

        We also contacted local newspapers and grabbed a copy of the Yellow Pages from that area and wrote to 2,000 local business owners telling our story and why we wanted to warn others in case anything they had created was also being sold without permission.

        HINT: No one would want to do business with him ever again so his web building business was ruined.

        He in turn then contacted the Australian Federal Police complaining our actions were akin to 'Cyber Terrorism' they came to visit my house, looked at all the correspondence and in the end said the guy was a jerk, deserved what he had coming to him and wished me all the very best for the future.

        The lesson: Mess with the wrong persons copyright and you might face very serious consequences. Tell them to 'F' Off when they call to ask for an explanation and you could just have 2,000 local business owners getting stuff in the mail 'warning' them about you.

        But seriously... c'mon selling stuff that OTHERS have copyrighted and thinking it is okay? surely no one thinks that is honest, ethical or legal?
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        • Profile picture of the author Tina Golden
          I can see the point of selling it on, if the product is no longer available and assuming you actually delete it because the product is of no use to you.

          However, I do not agree with the part "or that you no longer used" because that seems unfair to me. If you used it, you shouldn't sell your copy. It may be legal but it's immoral, in my opinion.

          I don't see this as turning into a secondary market, however. I know that I wouldn't buy a digital copy from just anyone, if at all. If I were to consider it, the person selling would have to be someone that I know and trust to be a person of integrity.

          I just don't see the point, though. If you buy a digital product and don't like it or plan to use it, why would you not just ask for a refund and get your money back that way?

          And for those of you comparing this to a physical book and saying it's the same thing - I can pass a book along to any number of my friends to read. Heck, I can go to the library and find thousands of books that I can borrow.

          If you are saying the same rules apply to a digital book as a physical book, then it shouldn't be a problem for you if I let all my friends read your book. Heck, maybe someone will start a digital library.

          You can't have it both ways and perhaps the law will catch up some day. Either it is the same as buying a physical book (therefore, I can do what I said above) or it's not the same (therefore, First-Sale Doctrine would not apply).
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          • Profile picture of the author yohoho
            Originally Posted by Tina Golden View Post

            I just don't see the point, though. If you buy a digital product and don't like it or plan to use it, why would you not just ask for a refund and get your money back that way?
            Don't you think that the orignal seller would be much happier if I sold my copy to someone else instead of getting my money back from him/her? I am sure that I would in their place.

            This topic is of interet to me since I have 28 WSOs on my hard drive bought since late last summer. Of those 28, 2 are compleat useless crap. One has this girl flipping trough her file system endlessly looking for files and videos and other things. This really pissed me off and should not be done in front of your buyers, just to fatten the WSO. There are 3 of these 28 WSOs that I am acting on now, the rest are just rehashes of other stuff and things I am not interestend in. Most of these are still refundable but I can't really bring myself to do that. I don't believe I have ever asked for a refund. I was going to at one point on one of them but am pretty sure I changed my mind.

            Before I ever saw this thread I had wondered if I could legaly offer some of these to someone I know with an interest in that area to get my money back and save the orignal author from having to refund it.

            Also, who says I have to ask the same price as I paid? I am not saying I would do this but, why can't I charge what ever someone is willing to pay.
            Also think about this, won't this dissemination of WSOs will bring more new users to the Warrior fourm and the original seller of the WSO. Just because I delete the WSO does not mean I would leave that persons list, and I would get the new purchaser to join the sellers list. As a WSO seller that would sound pretty good to me as oppposed to handing out a refund.
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            • Profile picture of the author Alan Petersen
              Originally Posted by yohoho View Post

              Don't you think that the orignal seller would be much happier if I sold my copy to someone else instead of getting my money back from him/her? I am sure that I would in their place.

              This topic is of interet to me since I have 28 WSOs on my hard drive bought since late last summer. Of those 28, 2 are compleat useless crap. One has this girl flipping trough her file system endlessly looking for files and videos and other things. This really pissed me off and should not be done in front of your buyers, just to fatten the WSO. There are 3 of these 28 WSOs that I am acting on now, the rest are just rehashes of other stuff and things I am not interestend in. Most of these are still refundable but I can't really bring myself to do that. I don't believe I have ever asked for a refund. I was going to at one point on one of them but am pretty sure I changed my mind.

              Before I ever saw this thread I had wondered if I could legaly offer some of these to someone I know with an interest in that area to get my money back and save the orignal author from having to refund it.

              Also, who says I have to ask the same price as I paid? I am not saying I would do this but, why can't I charge what ever someone is willing to pay.
              Also think about this, won't this dissemination of WSOs will bring more new users to the Warrior fourm and the original seller of the WSO. Just because I delete the WSO does not mean I would leave that persons list, and I would get the new purchaser to join the sellers list. As a WSO seller that would sound pretty good to me as oppposed to handing out a refund.
              So you want to unload products you think are crap onto unsuspecting people. Nice.

              If those WSO's are as bad as you say, get your refund and offer constructive criticism to the sellers vs. trying to figure out if you can dump them off on someone else.
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              • Profile picture of the author yohoho
                Originally Posted by Alan Petersen View Post

                So you want to unload products you think are crap onto unsuspecting people. Nice.
                Please go back and reread my post and stop making things up. You are just making things up. I never said any such thing.

                I said only two of the WSOs were useless crap. I would not even give them to anyone. I said I was using 3 others of them myself right now. The rest is stuff I am not interested in or they were repeats or very close to repeats of stuff I already had. I never said they were crap.

                So that leaves 23 WSOs left on my hard drive that I WONDERED about the legality of possibly selling. Do you understand that that does not mean that I was going to ever do it. I never ever said I was going to sell anything. I was participating in a very interesting conversation about copyrite and its gray areas. Right away you try to suggest that I am some kind of creep ripping people off. Please relax and read things properly and carefully before you comment from now on.

                If those WSO's are as bad as you say, get your refund and offer constructive criticism to the sellers vs. trying to figure out if you can dump them off on someone else.
                Well hopefully you now understand that I was not dumping anything off on anyone.

                So as a relatively new user here you think I am supposed to be criticising experienced users on their WSOs. I don't think I know enough to do that. I have read many WSO threads and have seen very little of that done. And when it is done it usually takes the form of bashing.

                Try to realize that we are here discussing a topic often by offering senarios to help make what we are saying more understandable. Is that so hard to comprehend? Why do you automaticaly think that I am some crook out to rip people off because I asked a question.
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                • Profile picture of the author Alan Petersen
                  Originally Posted by yohoho View Post

                  Please go back and reread my post and stop making things up..
                  I'm not making crap up. Man you are rude. I'll be rude too, please use spell check. Hard enough to re-read your post with the spelling mistakes.

                  Anyway see bold below from your direct quote. You wrote you only like 3 of the 28 WSO's. The rest are either crap or rehashed. So you're unhappy with your purchase so you're looking at dumping them off on someone else. Just ask for the refund and be done with it.

                  But hey, whatever makes you feel better in your fantasy land. Knock yourself out.

                  Have a good one.

                  Originally Posted by yohoho
                  Don't you think that the orignal seller would be much happier if I sold my copy to someone else instead of getting my money back from him/her? I am sure that I would in their place.

                  This topic is of interet to me since I have 28 WSOs on my hard drive bought since late last summer. Of those 28, 2 are compleat useless crap. One has this girl flipping trough her file system endlessly looking for files and videos and other things. This really pissed me off and should not be done in front of your buyers, just to fatten the WSO. There are 3 of these 28 WSOs that I am acting on now, the rest are just rehashes of other stuff and things I am not interestend in. Most of these are still refundable but I can't really bring myself to do that. I don't believe I have ever asked for a refund. I was going to at one point on one of them but am pretty sure I changed my mind.

                  Before I ever saw this thread I had wondered if I could legaly offer some of these to someone I know with an interest in that area to get my money back and save the orignal author from having to refund it.

                  Also, who says I have to ask the same price as I paid? I am not saying I would do this but, why can't I charge what ever someone is willing to pay.
                  Also think about this, won't this dissemination of WSOs will bring more new users to the Warrior fourm and the original seller of the WSO. Just because I delete the WSO does not mean I would leave that persons list, and I would get the new purchaser to join the sellers list. As a WSO seller that would sound pretty good to me as oppposed to handing out a refund.
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                  • Profile picture of the author yohoho
                    Originally Posted by Alan Petersen View Post

                    I'm not making crap up. Man you are rude. I'll be rude too, please use spell check. Hard enough to re-read your post with the spelling mistakes.
                    So what, I am not the best speller/typist in the world and it was very late last night. The spelling thing is commonly used as an insult by people witout the intelligence to comment on the content of the post. It really shows you for what you are.

                    So you want to unload products you think are crap onto unsuspecting people. Nice
                    Why do you think it is rude for me to correct you when you are wrong? Above is your FIRST response to my original post. Not only is it rude, but it is WRONG, WRONG, WRONG! Growe up why don't you.

                    Anyway see bold below from your direct quote. You wrote you only like 3 of the 28 WSO's. The rest are either crap or rehashed. So you're unhappy with your purchase so you're looking at dumping them off on someone else. Just ask for the refund and be done with it.
                    What is your problem? Are you blind or have some other disability. I would hate to insult you if that is the reason for this stupidity. No where do I say any such thing. I said, I am acting on 3 of the 28 WSOs, 2 of the WSOs I said, are crap. The rest I said, are in areas I am not interested in or rehashes of stuff I already have. Is that clear enough for you?

                    But hey, whatever makes you feel better in your fantasy land. Knock yourself out.
                    You are the one In the fantasy land. Try getting someone to help you read this stuff. Learn to take well deserved criticism instead of acting like a juvenile and jumping all over posts.

                    Have a good one.
                    Well thank you, even though given your nature and previous comments I suspect it is not genuine.


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        • Profile picture of the author kindsvater
          In the US, anyway, it is surprising this issue has not been decided. There are good arguments to be made both ways.

          Technically, a copy must be made for a digital transfer and the 1st sale doctrine may only apply to distribution and not copying.

          On the other hand, numerous "copies" are already being made when a digital file is transferred across the Internet, through an ISP, onto my computer RAM, attached to an email, saved to my hard drive, etc. Every purchase involves a 'technical' making of multiple copies.

          If the "digital copy" is deleted the effect is the same as giving someone a physical copy and the copyright owner is not harmed and the purpose of the 1st sale doctrine is fulfilled.

          Problems arise because people are people and it is hard to know if one copy has been destroyed when transferred to another.

          In many digital formats this is simply not an issue. Digital Rights Management ('DRM') either prohibits, or allows, a copy or transfer to be made. Obviously, this has been a big NO so far when it comes to allowing copies. For instance, good luck sending someone a copy of your Kindle downloads.

          The reason this is brought up here is because most WSO sellers are not using any DRM, but instead are releasing naked PDF files.

          Bottom line: there is no conclusive legal answer.

          Personally - I once sold someone a WSO and deleted it off my computer. Was that legal? Don't know.

          As I see it, I no longer have access or ability to access that WSO. Might there be a digital fragment someone on my computer? Maybe. But I prefer to deal with the practical reality.

          Note: software is different due to licensing issues.
          .
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  • Profile picture of the author tpw
    Originally Posted by SirThomas View Post

    I kinda wondered, if we could sell all those WSOs that we never used or the ones we no longer use?

    It could obviously create a quite dangerous secondary market...
    What do you think guys? Official rules anywhere?


    Thomas

    If I came to your job on payday, followed you to the bank to cash your check, then smacked you on the head and took your money, would that be alright with you?
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    • Profile picture of the author SirThomas
      Originally Posted by tpw View Post

      If I came to your job on payday, followed you to the bank to cash your check, then smacked you on the head and took your money, would that be alright with you?
      LOL! Are you even serious here? I doubt it....

      Please, re-read my post again.

      Have you ever bought a book and sold it to someone else? How about CDs? Is that also copyright violation or stealing...?

      If you buy an ebook, you can't do the same? What if you delete it from your hard drive after the sale?
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      • Profile picture of the author tpw
        Originally Posted by SirThomas View Post

        LOL! Are you even serious here? I doubt it....

        Please, re-read my post again.

        Have you ever bought a book and sold it to someone else? How about CDs? Is that also copyright violation or stealing...?

        If you buy an ebook, you can't do the same? What if you delete it from your hard drive after the sale?

        With physical products, you are allowed to sell the copy you purchased.

        With a digital product, the rules are not so clear, since once you have sold it, you still possess it.

        While not an issue in your case, most people asking questions such as this are thinking about selling more than one copy of the product -- FOR PROFIT...

        If you had intended to sell more than one copy for profit, then my question was not out of line... Because in selling other people's intellectual property for profit, you are taking food out of my children's mouth, if my product was the one you were selling.

        Regardless of whose product it was, if you sell more than one copy of each product, it is the same as stealing from the person who did the hard work to create it.
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        • Profile picture of the author SirThomas
          Originally Posted by tpw View Post

          With physical products, you are allowed to sell the copy you purchased.

          With a digital product, the rules are not so clear, since once you have sold it, you still possess it.

          While not an issue in your case, most people asking questions such as this are thinking about selling more than one copy of the product -- FOR PROFIT...

          If you had intended to sell more than one copy for profit, then my question was not out of line... Because in selling other people's intellectual property for profit, you are taking food out of my children's mouth, if my product was the one you were selling.

          Regardless of whose product it was, if you sell more than one copy of each product, it is the same as stealing from the person who did the hard work to create it.
          Agreed. That's why in my original post I said "WSOs that we never used or the ones we no longer use". In other words, selling my own personal copy, ONCE and not for profit (multiple sales).

          And yes, you have to delete your own files, so you no longer are in the possession of the product. I had to do this in the past with a software product (an education game for kids).

          It's similar to making a copy of the DVD movie and at some point selling it to someone else. After the sale, you have to destroy that copy as well.


          Thomas
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          • Profile picture of the author tpw
            Originally Posted by SirThomas View Post

            Agreed. That's why in my original post I said "WSOs that we never used or the ones we no longer use". In other words, selling my own personal copy, ONCE and not for profit (multiple sales).

            And yes, you have to delete your own files, so you no longer are in the possession of the product. I had to do this in the past with a software product (an education game for kids).

            It's similar to making a copy of the DVD movie and at some point selling it to someone else. After the sale, you have to destroy that copy as well.


            Thomas

            The problem isn't necessarily you, but the hoards of people who will use this argument to sell multiple copies of someone else's product for a profit.
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      • Profile picture of the author Bekah Howard
        Originally Posted by SirThomas View Post

        If you buy an ebook, you can't do the same? What if you delete it from your hard drive after the sale?
        The underlined statement is the big problem with reselling digital products. At some point there will be two copies of the product, which instantly puts the sale into a gray area.

        Also, as a purchaser you usually have free access to download it again later, and often get free updates. Just because you deleted it after you sold it, you could forget you sold it and redownload, or get emailed an update link.
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        • Profile picture of the author SirThomas
          Originally Posted by Bekah Howard View Post

          The underlined statement is the big problem with reselling digital products. At some point there will be two copies of the product, which instantly puts the sale into a gray area.

          Also, as a purchaser you usually have free access to download it again later, and often get free updates. Just because you deleted it after you sold it, you could forget you sold it and redownload, or get emailed an update link.
          I know what you mean. What if you make a copy (burn it into a cd), delete the files from your PC and then sell it to someone else?
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          • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
            Thomas,
            What if you make a copy (burn it into a cd), delete the files from your PC and then sell it to someone else?
            Based on my non-lawyerly understanding, that would be a perfectly legitimate sale. As long as there's only one hard copy made, of course...


            Paul
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          • Profile picture of the author Bekah Howard
            Originally Posted by SirThomas View Post

            I know what you mean. What if you make a copy (burn it into a cd), delete the files from your PC and then sell it to someone else?
            Personally, I would think that you should also contact the original seller to request you be taken off of the updates list and that future downloads by you should be blocked. If you did all of this, then yeah - you could probably resell it (but only your one copy).
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  • Profile picture of the author Rod Cortez
    Originally Posted by SirThomas View Post

    I kinda wondered, if we could sell all those WSOs that we never used or the ones we no longer use?

    It could obviously create a quite dangerous secondary market...
    What do you think guys? Official rules anywhere?

    Thomas
    Thomas,

    The official rules are called copyright law and intellectual property rights, which vary from country to country, but the answer to your question is no.

    Unless you purchased complete Master Resale Rights the answer is always a resounding no. If you purchased Private Label Rights, the answer is also no.

    RoD
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  • Profile picture of the author J Bold
    No, you can't. Unless you have resale rights, of course.

    It's not like physical products where you can resell a used book on ebay or amazon and sell it just once!

    With digital products of course you can sell it many times over so that means you are assuming some sort of intellectual property rights which most likely you do not own!
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  • Profile picture of the author shunks
    How would you feel if someone wants to reprint and sell your book?
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    Daily updates about me trading Bitcoins and making cash $$$!
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  • Profile picture of the author georgedinmore
    So what happens if you rehash it?

    So many digital products have been rehashed, and nothing has been done legally.

    Majority of Clickbank products are rehashed. So why not?
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    *edit

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  • Profile picture of the author Rod Cortez
    Where's Brian when ya need him? lol

    RoD
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  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
    I think you might find this issue is considerably less cut-and-dried than sellers of WSOs would have you think. There is a limitation on the right of copyright holders to control the change of ownership of a particular copy of a work. This is called the First-Sale Doctrine.
    Yep.

    Here's the way I understand the legal end of it, with the usual caveat: I am not now, nor have I ever been, a member of the... err... a lawyer.

    Unless specifically forbidden in the terms of the sale (which may or may not be enforceable, depending on how they're worded and where they're placed in the sales process), you may sell your ONE (1) copy of the product, as long as you also delete every copy in your possession at the time of sale.

    In short, you buy one copy, you have only paid for control of a single copy (with allowance for backups for security purposes).

    If any of that is wrong, the lawyers will no doubt correct me.

    That said: Don't do it here, and don't get caught advertising the offer. The assumption will be that you're selling more than one copy, and you'll end up banned.


    Paul
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    • Profile picture of the author SirThomas
      Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

      Yep.

      Here's the way I understand the legal end of it, with the usual caveat: I am not now, nor have I ever been, a member of the... err... a lawyer.

      Unless specifically forbidden in the terms of the sale (which may or may not be enforceable, depending on how they're worded and where they're placed in the sales process), you may sell your ONE (1) copy of the product, as long as you also delete every copy in your possession at the time of sale.

      In short, you buy one copy, you have only paid for control of a single copy (with allowance for backups for security purposes).

      If any of that is wrong, the lawyers will no doubt correct me.

      That said: Don't do it here, and don't get caught advertising the offer. The assumption will be that you're selling more than one copy, and you'll end up banned.


      Paul
      Thanks Paul for chipping in. The reason I actually asked the original question is that one person on WSO thread asked, if someone would be willing to sell their product license. The WSO product is no longer available...
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      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
        Thomas,
        Thanks Paul for chipping in. The reason I actually asked the original question is that one person on WSO thread asked, if someone would be willing to sell their product license. The WSO product is no longer available...
        License? Different set of questions. That's a TOS issue, and probably involves the original seller.

        No way to answer that without more detail than we have here.


        Paul
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      • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
        Originally Posted by SirThomas View Post

        Thanks Paul for chipping in. The reason I actually asked the original question is that one person on WSO thread asked, if someone would be willing to sell their product license. The WSO product is no longer available...
        No offense, Sir, but it would have been so much easier, and less time would have been spent on unnecessary tangents, if you just would have asked the question you wanted to ask right away.

        All the best,
        Michael
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        • Profile picture of the author SirThomas
          Originally Posted by Michael Oksa View Post

          No offense, Sir, but it would have been so much easier, and less time would have been spent on unnecessary tangents, if you just would have asked the question you wanted to ask right away.

          All the best,
          Michael
          That other post only sparked the idea of "what if...?"
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        • Profile picture of the author yohoho
          Originally Posted by Michael Oksa View Post

          No offense, Sir, but it would have been so much easier, and less time would have been spent on unnecessary tangents, if you just would have asked the question you wanted to ask right away.
          No offence sir, but why have you attempted to stifle this interesting conversation in everyone of your posts so far? If your time is too valuable to waste participating in the conversation, why are you participating in the conversation?
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  • Profile picture of the author Texjd
    Went through this lttle meat grinder with a client (his product was sold by buyer) back in 2003 and sorry to say that it got thrown out of court at every level. This guy wasted a ton of money and time just to prove a point. And the point he proved was just the opposite of what he wanted ;(.

    Plus it's always a matter of cost and results. Someone buys and then sells a $29 product (digital or otherwise) I doubt it would be worth the time and money to go after them. And even if you did, what would you gain? Damages? Good luck on that.

    If you really want to get sick to your stomach go check out some of the warez sites and you'll find every digital product in the know world (to include products like MS Office and up). Think Microsoft doesn't have the money and time to go after these guys? After all they are giving away thier high dollar products. The reason they don't is they can't. Laws are different everywhere to start with and plus there's no way to legally to pursue it.

    You may be able to stop another website (in US) from posting sale item or some such thing but that's about all.
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
    As long as you sell it only once, and then delete it from your hard drive immediately, and make it clear to the other person that they would have to do the exact same thing if they ever wanted to sell it, then I don't think I would have a problem with it.

    Originally Posted by SirThomas View Post

    I know what you mean. What if you make a copy (burn it into a cd), delete the files from your PC and then sell it to someone else?
    Then I would have even less of a problem with it.

    All the best,
    Michael
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  • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
    Banned
    Originally Posted by SirThomas View Post

    I kinda wondered, if we could sell all those WSOs that we never used or the ones we no longer use?

    It could obviously create a quite dangerous secondary market...
    What do you think guys? Official rules anywhere?


    Thomas
    Are you seriously asking if there are rules against selling someone else's product? Come on. That should be a no brainer.

    YOU CANNOT sell someone else's product unless they have given you the right to do so.
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    • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
      Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

      Are you seriously asking if there are rules against selling someone else's product? Come on. That should be a no brainer.

      YOU CANNOT sell someone else's product unless they have given you the right to do so.
      You may want to read the entire thread, Suzanne. There may possibly an exception to this "rule".

      The only catch is how to make sure that they are following through on their end of the bargain.

      All the best,
      Michael
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    • Profile picture of the author SirThomas
      Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

      Are you seriously asking if there are rules against selling someone else's product? Come on. That should be a no brainer.

      YOU CANNOT sell someone else's product unless they have given you the right to do so.

      Please, re-read the thread. It will give you a better understanding of what we're talking about. Thanks.
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      • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
        Banned
        Originally Posted by SirThomas View Post

        Please, re-read the thread. It will give you a better understanding of what we're talking about. Thanks.
        I don't need to re-read the thread. You obviously added more to the question as the thread progressed. Nowhere in the original question did you mention selling ONLY ONE copy and deleting your copy. The OP is what I responded to as it was asked.

        I kinda wondered, if we could sell all those WSOs that we never used or the ones we no longer use?

        It could obviously create a quite dangerous secondary market...
        What do you think guys? Official rules anywhere?
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        • Profile picture of the author Audrey Harvey
          [QUOTE=sbucciarel;4846391Nowhere in the original question did you mention selling ONLY ONE copy and deleting your copy. [/QUOTE]

          I must be naive, or maybe just haven't been burned as much as some others, but that was the assumption I made when I read the OP. I figured he was talking about reselling the product once, just as you would a hard copy of a book.
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          • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
            Banned
            Originally Posted by Audrey Harvey View Post

            I must be naive, or maybe just haven't been burned as much as some others, but that was the assumption I made when I read the OP. I figured he was talking about reselling the product once, just as you would a hard copy of a book.
            Perhaps it's naive then ... it's not uncommon for people to sell things here and elsewhere that they have no rights to sell or resell.

            Taking the original question at face value ... let's assume that we all knew he "meant" selling only one copy of someone else's product. So, how much time and effort is he going to spend trying to find one buyer for a used product and how much will he discount it to entice people to buy his one copy over the original license?

            And why would anyone trust that he actually deletes his copy? Personally, when I buy a product that I don't want any longer, whether or not I've gotten any use out of it, I delete it. The seller intended for it to be delivered and used by one person and I respect their rights to set that limit. Attempting to skirt around their copyright with a "used product yardsale" is not complying with the spirit of the "rights" given when purchased, whether or not some lawyer can find a way that it is legal to do so.
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        • Profile picture of the author SirThomas
          Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

          I don't need to re-read the thread. You obviously added more to the question as the thread progressed. Nowhere in the original question did you mention selling ONLY ONE copy and deleting your copy. The OP is what I responded to as it was asked.
          That's exactly my point. Reading further would help you to see what it was all about.

          Could you point me to the part of my original post where I suggest selling MULTIPLE copies of someone's product without their permission? I can't see it... You wrongly assumed what I meant. It happens...
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        • Profile picture of the author eskimoto
          Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

          I don't need to re-read the thread. You obviously added more to the question as the thread progressed. Nowhere in the original question did you mention selling ONLY ONE copy and deleting your copy. The OP is what I responded to as it was asked.
          you should have got the hint when he said about unused WSO's. clearly if he just wanted to resell multiple copies of WSOs it would not make any difference if those were used or not.
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  • Profile picture of the author Scott Ames
    I tried to sell an ebook that I didn't need any longer. It was on my computer and I sold it to a guy. I sent it to him and thought that was the end of it. Looking closer I found that dang ebook was still on my computer. I was certain I attached it to the email I sent to the buyer.

    No problem. I'll just sell it again and it will be gone. So I did. This time I was careful to make sure I got the correct ebook and I double checked. Yup, that was the one.

    I don't know what happened but that freaking ebook was still there the next day. I'm going to keep selling the dang thing until it's gone. This is crazy. I don't understand what's going on.




    *Obviously a fictitious story.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mike Baker
    I believe it would be within the law if you sold it for either the same price you bought it for or less. But once you sell it for more than you paid, then that's when you have crossed the line.
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    • Profile picture of the author Martin Luxton
      Originally Posted by Zamantra Marketing View Post

      I believe it would be within the law if you sold it for either the same price you bought it for or less. But once you sell it for more than you paid, then that's when you have crossed the line.
      Why would selling it for more mean you have "crossed the line"? Isn't it the principle we're discussing, not the amount?

      OK. You bought a WSO for $47 that the seller said was limited to (let's say) 50 customers. After the 50 copies were sold and the offer closed, you saw somebody post on the thread, "I really need this WSO - I'll give anybody $200 for their copy."

      Now, the product owner couldn't sell a a 51st copy because that would be illegal (), so what's wrong with me selling my copy for a profit of $153 and deleting it from my hard drive afterwards?


      Martin
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      • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
        Banned
        Originally Posted by Martin Luxton View Post

        Why would selling it for more mean you have "crossed the line"? Isn't it the principle we're discussing, not the amount?

        OK. You bought a WSO for $47 that the seller said was limited to (let's say) 50 customers. After the 50 copies were sold and the offer closed, you saw somebody post on the thread, "I really need this WSO - I'll give anybody $200 for their copy."

        Now, the product owner couldn't sell a a 51st copy because that would be illegal (), so what's wrong with me selling my copy for a profit of $153 and deleting it from my hard drive afterwards?


        Martin
        And this is a very good example of why a seller would be pissed at people for selling their copies at any price. A limited offer is a limited offer. It's a promise by the seller to limit the sales to only a certain number of people.

        If each person who bought the product, absorbed the info and then sold "their" copy, you have effectively doubled the copies distributed, making the sellers promise of limited distribution a lie and cheating everyone who bought with the promise of limited distribution.
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        • Profile picture of the author yohoho
          Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

          And this is a very good example of why a seller would be pissed at people for selling their copies at any price. A limited offer is a limited offer. It's a promise by the seller to limit the sales to only a certain number of people.
          No, it was to limit the sales to a certin number of WSOs, which he has full control of. If someone sold their copy and deleted it, things would be fine. If someone refunded a WSO after the offer closed then the seller would be out money because he sold one less then he planed.

          If each person who bought the product, absorbed the info and then sold "their" copy, you have effectively doubled the copies distributed, making the sellers promise of limited distribution a lie and cheating everyone who bought with the promise of limited distribution.
          OK, first you have to stop assuming that everyone is dishonest.

          How is this any different then a refund? A refunder could do the same thing, keep his copy, but I don't see anyone complaining about that, and almost everyone is offering generous refund periods.

          So lets try assuming people are basicly honest or no WSOs or very few anyway, would ever get sold with out being refunded. I wonder what the refund rates are. I suspect very few. I don't see many made public in the WSO thread, maybe 1 or 2 in some.

          So, does anyone have an opinion on sharing the purchase of a WSO with a friend or colleague?
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        • Profile picture of the author eskimoto
          Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

          And this is a very good example of why a seller would be pissed at people for selling their copies at any price. A limited offer is a limited offer. It's a promise by the seller to limit the sales to only a certain number of people.

          If each person who bought the product, absorbed the info and then sold "their" copy, you have effectively doubled the copies distributed, making the sellers promise of limited distribution a lie and cheating everyone who bought with the promise of limited distribution.
          i can buy a physical book, absorb knowledge from it and then sell it on ebay. does it mean i have multiplied the copies distributed? The answer is No.

          physical book are also published in limited copies.

          but i i copied the book in a xero point, kept the original for myself and sod the copy to someone else then Yes i would be multiplying the distributed copies.
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  • Profile picture of the author mysterrio
    I think it is different with each WSO. Also you cold check with the creators of each WSO and see what they say. Just a thought.
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Okay, here's an interesting twist on this whole topic, which I find absolutely
      fascinating.

      Is it legal for the seller of the product to state in the terms that the product
      cannot be resold even IF only one copy is sold and the original is deleted from
      your computer?

      That would be like telling somebody that they can't resell that book they
      purchased at Barnes and Noble even though it's the only one they have and,
      to the best of my knowledge anyway, have the right to sell it, burn it or even
      use it for wallpaper if they like as long as when they're done with it there are
      no other copies having been made.

      I'm not a lawyer and quite honestly, have no idea if the above can or can't
      be done because I don't know the law when it comes to this.

      But if it is legal to prohibit the resale of an item you purchased, such as
      a book, why don't more publishers, or whoever controls these things,
      stipulate this somewhere inside the book itself or even right on the cover...

      Can Not Be Resold!

      This way, the publisher would make more sales because of the restriction
      on reselling books.

      Same would apply to software or anything else that is a physical item.

      Imagine how few garage sales we'd have.

      What about rummage sales for clothes?

      Do the same with them...can not be resold.

      More sales means a stronger economy.

      Anyway, I'm just tossing this out there as an alternative so that there is
      no question as to what you can and can't do with an item. Again, I'm not
      a lawyer so I don't know. But it is an interesting possibility.

      At least I think so.
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      • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
        Banned
        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

        I'm not a lawyer and quite honestly, have no idea if the above can or can't be done because I don't know the law when it comes to this.
        I'm not, either.

        But my understanding is that (both in the US and certainly in Europe) "freedom of contract" is in fact not absolute, and can sometimes be overridden by either statutory or common law principles.

        For example, in the UK, there's the "Unfair Contract Terms Act" (and its various subsequent amendments), and there are other European and US equivalents of this.

        The fact that two parties purport to agree to something, and both clearly intend to, as a contractual term, doesn't necessarily mean that it was "legal" in the civil law sense of "standing up in court".
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  • Profile picture of the author Charles Jones
    The entire argument is BS....digital or physical (no matter what crap you want to pull out as a "license")....I should be able to sell something that I have purchased. Otherwise, you could say I could not resell ANYTHING I have ever bought.

    The fact that people who market "digital" products bitch and whine about "it isn't the same" is a bunch of junk. I should be able to resell the ONE copy I purchased for any amount of money...just like if I buy a video game for XBOX, a book, a car, anything. It is the same.

    Oh yeah, I SELL digital products BTW, so I am subject to those rules too (ie I can't bitch if someone wants to resell the product they bought from me).
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    • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
      Originally Posted by Charles Jones View Post

      The entire argument is BS....digital or physical (no matter what crap you want to pull out as a "license")....I should be able to sell something that I have purchased. Otherwise, you could say I could not resell ANYTHING I have ever bought.

      The fact that people who market "digital" products bitch and whine about "it isn't the same" is a bunch of junk. I should be able to resell the ONE copy I purchased for any amount of money...just like if I buy a video game for XBOX, a book, a car, anything. It is the same.

      Oh yeah, I SELL digital products BTW, so I am subject to those rules too (ie I can't bitch if someone wants to resell the product they bought from me).
      As long as you immediatley delete YOUR copy.

      ~Michael
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      • Profile picture of the author Kay King
        The problem is whenever you start to answer what may be a question of legality with "I think" or "I believe" or "it seems to me" or "sure it's ok to..."...you are playing lawyer. If laws made sense, we wouldn't need lawyers interpret them for us.

        I'm not sure why anyone would want to buy an ebook unless you discount it to resell it - they could get their own copy instead. I don't think it would be worth the time and effort to find a one-time buyer for a one-time sale. I think it would be tempting if the sale was easy....to maybe sell it a few more times...shades of gray???

        I doubt the internet police would show up at your door and demand to view your hard drive. However, word of this kind of activity has a way of tarnishing reputations and that's not worth the price.

        Make up your own mind and take your own chances. Opinions on a forum don't hold an ounce of weight legally.

        kay
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    • Profile picture of the author Bekah Howard
      Originally Posted by Charles Jones View Post

      The entire argument is BS....digital or physical (no matter what crap you want to pull out as a "license")....I should be able to sell something that I have purchased. Otherwise, you could say I could not resell ANYTHING I have ever bought.

      The fact that people who market "digital" products bitch and whine about "it isn't the same" is a bunch of junk. I should be able to resell the ONE copy I purchased for any amount of money...just like if I buy a video game for XBOX, a book, a car, anything. It is the same.

      Oh yeah, I SELL digital products BTW, so I am subject to those rules too (ie I can't bitch if someone wants to resell the product they bought from me).
      Charles, you made me think of a main-stream example of digital products that can NOT be resold - Steam games. When you purchase a steam game you have the option to apply the game to your account or gift the game to a friend. Once the game is applied to your account, that's it. There is no way to sell, gift, or otherwise transfer a purchased and applied Steam game.

      In general, no one would argue with that rule for steam. In order to get the single license, you are paying a discount from a physical copy of the game. You buy the game with the knowledge that it cannot be resold.

      I consider digital products to be the same as Steam games - bought with the knowledge/expectation that they cannot be resold. Legally, you could probably sell your one copy, but you would have to be able to prove that you deleted the product at the time of the sale, and that you have no back-up copies. That is why I earlier said that if you sell your single copy, I would also advise you to contact the original seller and inform them of the sale.
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    • Profile picture of the author davezan
      Originally Posted by fluffythewondercat View Post

      Yes, that's the argument the software companies use: They claim they're only selling a license. But some courts have disagreed, saying the consumer bought a product, not a license, and thus the first-sale doctrine applies. The issue is far from settled.
      http://www.ca9.uscourts.gov/datastor...0/09-35969.pdf

      Published Opinion for UMG RECORDINGS, INC. V. TROY AUGUSTO, 08-55998

      Published Opinion for MDY INDUSTRIES, LLC V. BLIZZARD ENTERTAINMENT, INC., 09-15932

      Another question to ponder: if I buy a software or PDF (copy?) from someone
      here who isn't authorized, can I still demand support from the original source
      if I didn't purchase from him/her directly, especially if there's no agreement of
      any kind between us?

      The answer to that will probably depend on what side of the door you are on.
      It swings both ways.
      Signature

      David

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  • Profile picture of the author go4wealth
    hey what about ethics and morals? Just doing the right thing regardless. I agree if I purchased a product, digital or otherwise I own it unless all I purchased was usage rights. If I own it I can sale what I own but that does not give me the right to reproduce it and sale the reproduced copies. I thank that would be copyright infringement.

    If I payed for reproduction and resale rights then I can reproduce it and sale it. What does it matter what I can get away with. What is right is right. What is wrong is wrong. There are enough gray areas without going out of our way to find some
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    • Profile picture of the author SirThomas
      Originally Posted by go4wealth View Post

      hey what about ethics and morals? Just doing the right thing regardless. I agree if I purchased a product, digital or otherwise I own it unless all I purchased was usage rights. If I own it I can sale what I own but that does not give me the right to reproduce it and sale the reproduced copies. I thank that would be copyright infringement.

      If I payed for reproduction and resale rights then I can reproduce it and sale it. What does it matter what I can get away with. What is right is right. What is wrong is wrong. There are enough gray areas without going out of our way to find some
      Correct, buying a product doesn't give you reproduction rights, unless those rights were released to you.
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  • Profile picture of the author J Bold
    Fluffythewondercat's post caused me to look this up online.

    Interesting reading regarding the first-sale doctrine and digital products on wikipedia:

    First-sale doctrine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    If you have a few minutes, doesn't take long to cover. Under the section: "Computer software"

    Apparently, it's "an area of legal confusion."

    So my answer is, I don't really know!
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  • Profile picture of the author stevenjacobs
    Banned
    You may not it is callled copy right infirgemnet,
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    • Profile picture of the author SirThomas
      Originally Posted by stevenjacobs View Post

      You may not it is callled copy right infirgemnet,
      Copyright infringement has more to with unauthorized reproduction (or minimal alteration) than with mere selling off a product that you own and decided to pass on to someone else. But there might be some rules which prohibit that anyways...
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  • Profile picture of the author Newbie Japan
    I am brand new here compared to the rest of you sensei but even us newbies recognize it's a no brainer. I look at the WSOs to find a good deal. If I saw one that someone else produced a while back being sold by someone different . . .

    it should raise a, "What's up with this?" message in my brain.

    Please produce your own WSO and if it is a good deal, like most of the rest I have seen on this forum, I might give it a go.
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  • Profile picture of the author lotsofsnow
    Originally Posted by SirThomas View Post

    Official rules anywhere?
    The official rules are the copyright laws.

    If you violate them you might be in for a very special treat: $250,000 fine per violation.

    I am not a lawyer, but based on my understanding: If you sell something without explicit license to sell said stuff you are infringing on the copyright. Do that with the wrong person or company and you will fee very sorry.

    I would say: that's not worth it. It's way better to keep your nose clean!
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    • Profile picture of the author SirThomas
      Originally Posted by hpgoodboy View Post

      The official rules are the copyright laws.

      If you violate them you might be in for a very special treat: $250,000 fine per violation.

      I am not a lawyer, but based on my understanding: If you sell something without explicit license to sell said stuff you are infringing on the copyright. Do that with the wrong person or company and you will fee very sorry.

      I would say: that's not worth it. It's way better to keep your nose clean!
      Right above your post, there is a note regarding "copyright infringement". It applies to unlawful "reproduction" not mere selling unwanted, used or unused stuff. But I know what you mean.
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  • Profile picture of the author SirThomas
    OK. Thank you all for participation. It was fun.

    This thread proved that people reading the same sentence CAN and WILL come up with a different meaning, which by itself is quite fascinating!


    Thomas

    I have another question, similar to the original post, but I have some doubts now... LOL
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  • Profile picture of the author mikemcmillan
    Well, here's my 2ยข worth. I've never run across so much bad advice coming from so many people who don't have a clue as to what they're talking about in the two years I've been here.

    BTW, copyright covers not only the reproduction rights but the distribution rights of intellectual property as well. And it doesn't matter how much you read online about what's legal and not related to copyright. It doesn't mean jack squat.

    Copyright "law" isn't codified completely in writing anywhere. The statutory aspects of copyright law in the U.S. begin in Title 17 U.S. Code, but much of what is "legal" can only be determined in a courtroom. Most decisions related to copyright infringement are based upon both statutory law (what is codified) as well as case law (what's been decided in previous judgments).

    This thread has given me a headache. I must depart. --Mike
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  • Profile picture of the author Kezz
    Again the preface, "I'm not a lawyer".

    However, in a previous role I had in a company that consulted with innovators and inventors, I worked side by side with IP (intellectual property) lawyers and had to learn some of the ins and outs.

    My understanding would be as follows.

    Digital and physical products are different.

    When you purchase a physical product you are buying the "thing".

    When you purchase a digital product, you are not actually buying the product itself. You are buying a license to use the product in a certain way.

    So when you buy a software product, a set of graphics, etc. etc. you don't actually own the software or the graphic itself.

    The creator / copyright holder still has full ownership.

    What you have purchased is whatever usage rights are outlined in the EULA - end user license agreement.

    So the question is not, "Can I sell my copy of this product?" because technically you don't actually "own" a copy.

    The real question is, "Are the usage rights the license allows for transferable?"

    And the answer is, it depends on the license agreement.

    If the license agreement states that the usage rights granted are non-transferable, then that's that. You purchased your license, you cannot transfer your usage rights.

    But if the license agreement does allow you to transfer your usage rights to one other person if you follow certain requirements, such as deleting your copy, then you can do what the license allows for.


    This is why many software vendors sell a disc, i.e. the physical thing, but also a license key.

    So you may under their terms sell the disc, i.e. the physical "thing", but you still might not be able to sell your usage license.

    Someone mentioned games - you often find this is the case, for example through games tied to services on Steam. You can sell the discs your game came on, but you won't be able to sell the license you purchased or its associated key.


    So the bottom line is, if in doubt, don't go selling something you're unsure you have the right to sell.

    It's more likely than not that such a right has not been granted.
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  • Profile picture of the author WillR
    As a vendor of digital products myself I would not appreciate people on-selling their copy of my product and I don't believe people have the right to do so. The way I see it you have two options:

    1. Use the product. If you do this then you have no reason to on-sell it to someone else because you already got your moneys worth...

    2. Don't use the product for whatever reason and return it for a refund. I'd be happier to give someone a full refund than have them on-sell the product elsewhere because it lowers the value of my product.

    I think there is a big difference between selling a used soccer ball and on-selling digital products. Let me ask you this question. If I went on to iTunes today and purchased the latest U2 album, when I got sick of that album in a few weeks time would it then be ok for me to list those digital files for sale? There's the answer to your question right there, I think?
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    • Profile picture of the author SirThomas
      Originally Posted by WillR View Post

      As a vendor of digital products myself I would not appreciate people on-selling their copy of my product and I don't believe people have the right to do so. The way I see it you have two options:

      1. Use the product. If you do this then you have no reason to on-sell it to someone else because you already got your moneys worth...

      2. Don't use the product for whatever reason and return it for a refund...

      I think there is a big difference between selling a used soccer ball and on-selling digital products. Let me ask you this question. If I went on to iTunes today and purchased the latest U2 album, when I got sick of that album in a few weeks time would it then be ok for me to list those digital files for sale? There's the answer to your question right there.

      Hell. No.
      Agreed. iTunes has a very elaborate and precise "usage rules" and "intellectual property" requirements.

      That's probably the closest comparison so far. Thanks.
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      • Profile picture of the author WillR
        Originally Posted by SirThomas View Post

        Agreed. iTunes has a very elaborate and precise "usage rules" and "intellectual property" requirements.

        That's probably the closest comparison so far. Thanks.
        Having said all of this I have seen a fair amount of second hand IM courses being sold on eBay over the past few years. Courses like Mass Control, the Product Launch Formula, CPA Tsunami, and all those other $1997 courses that come with a ton of DVD's. I even saw the odd person selling a DVD that had all the course materials from a membership site downloaded on to it - so in essence they were doing the very thing you are asking about here. I must admit I felt it was a little cheeky at the time. Selling a course full of DVD's is one thing but selling the downloads from a course, I don't know, it just doesn't seem right.
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        • Profile picture of the author SirThomas
          Originally Posted by WillR View Post

          Having said all of this I have seen a fair amount of second hand IM courses being sold on eBay over the past few years. Courses like Mass Control, the Product Launch Formula, CPA Tsunami, and all those other $1997 courses that come with a ton of DVD's. I even saw the odd person selling a DVD that had all the course materials from a membership site downloaded on to it - so in essence they were doing the very thing you are asking about here. I must admit I felt it was a little cheeky at the time. Selling a course full of DVD's is one thing but selling the downloads from a course, I don't know, it just doesn't seem right.

          Honestly, I find the entire situation quite odd. Someone puts a lot of effort and expenses into creation of a digital product in a physical form by printing written materials, burning CDs and DVDs and sending it to customers in nice plastic covers.

          And, when done studying, it is OK to sell that product. It's even OK to lend it to all of your friends. No violations here...

          On the other hand, someone else uploads the very same files to a server, saves a bunch on printing, shipping, sells it 24/7 etc.

          And you can't sell or lend it to anybody... I think, iTunes only allows you burn your music up to 7 times and it self-destructs!
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          • Profile picture of the author WillR
            Originally Posted by SirThomas View Post

            Honestly, I find the entire situation quite odd. Someone puts a lot of effort and expenses into creation of a digital product in a physical form by printing written materials, burning CDs and DVDs and sending it to customers in nice plastic covers.

            And, when done studying, it is OK to sell that product. It's even OK to lend it to all of your friends. No violations here...

            On the other hand, someone else uploads the very same files to a server, saves a bunch on printing, shipping, sells it 24/7 etc.

            And you can't sell or lend it to anybody... I think, iTunes only allows you burn your music up to 7 times and it self-destructs!
            I know exactly what you mean but I think the biggest difference (obviously) is how much easier it is for people to exploit digital products. One copy sold to one person has the potential to turn into hundreds of pirated copies down the line.

            I actually found one on eBay right now. Do you think this sort of thing is fair to the product owner?

            This person has purchased an expensive product, converted the product to digital files, and is now selling copies of those digital files for next to nothing.

            Fair? I don't think so.

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            • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
              Banned
              Originally Posted by WillR View Post

              I know exactly what you mean but I think the biggest difference (obviously) is how much easier it is for people to exploit digital products. One copy sold to one person has the potential to turn into hundreds of pirated copies down the line.

              I actually found one on eBay right now. Do you think this sort of thing is fair to the product owner?

              This person has purchased an expensive product, converted the product to digital files, and is now selling copies of those digital files for next to nothing.

              Fair? I don't think so.

              It's more than unfair. It's piracy. He is not selling one copy ... the "box" that he bought. He's selling someone else's product to anyone who will buy.
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              • Profile picture of the author SirThomas
                Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

                It's more than unfair. It's piracy. He is not selling one copy ... the "box" that he bought. He's selling someone else's product to anyone who will buy.
                True. The guy doesn't even bother to hide anything. It's like: "I bought
                this movie on DVD (it's now "mine"), converted it to avi for easier use and
                now sell "my" version.

                I've seen similar situation with people recording someone's conference
                calls or webinars and then selling it as an info product.

                What's worse, I see similar and probably innocent in nature attempts by our
                own and well established warriors. Have you noticed "personal notes" from
                seminars, webinars etc? Would that be fair to the product author? Hardly.

                Of course, those "notes" where not offered for sale, but very often added
                as bonus for other products or used as bait to join their list...
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            • Profile picture of the author SirThomas
              Originally Posted by WillR View Post

              I know exactly what you mean but I think the biggest difference (obviously) is how much easier it is for people to exploit digital products. One copy sold to one person has the potential to turn into hundreds of pirated copies down the line.
              Bingo! That is exactly the reason, why with digital product, people would instantly
              accuse you of some kind of intellectual contraband! Assumptions.

              It's so unusual to sell unwanted software or ebooks, therefore it must be a
              scam on a larger scale...

              Regarding the guy bootlegging Frank Kern, I wonder how he managed to convert all
              the files to digital format when the product is brand new, unused and unopened?
              (check condition status) That itself is worth WSO of the day award!
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              • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
                Banned
                Originally Posted by SirThomas View Post

                It's so unusual to sell unwanted software or ebooks, therefore it must be a scam on a larger scale...
                Yeah, like taking copying and distribution rights that were not given to you.

                There's always going to be those who don't have any ideas of their own, so try to profit from other people's work. That'll never stop.
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                • Profile picture of the author SirThomas
                  Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

                  Yeah, like taking copying and distribution rights that were not given to you.

                  There's always going to be those who don't have any ideas of their own, so try to profit from other people's work. That'll never stop.
                  Huh? Are you accusing me of stealing someone's product?
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                  • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
                    Banned
                    Originally Posted by SirThomas View Post

                    Huh? Are you accusing me of stealing someone's product?
                    I haven't accused anyone of doing anything, but if you condone distributing a copy of products that you purchased to other people, it's wrong. Plenty of people have chimed in to say there may be a legal basis for it, but it's just plain wrong, IMO. Sellers expect you to buy for your own personal use, unless otherwise stated.
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                    • Profile picture of the author SirThomas
                      Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

                      I haven't accused anyone of doing anything, but if you condone distributing a copy of products that you purchased to other people, it's wrong. Plenty of people have chimed in to say there may be a legal basis for it, but it's just plain wrong, IMO. Sellers expect you to buy for your own personal use, unless otherwise stated.

                      OK. From you previous post, I was under impression you were accusing me of
                      "copying and distribution rights that were not given to you". Perhaps that's
                      just play of words. On the positive side, I am NOT an info marketer, so I have
                      no reason to copy anybody's stuff and sell it for profit ;-)

                      Peace out guys! I am out for the night.
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              • Profile picture of the author tpw
                Original Post:

                Originally Posted by SirThomas View Post

                I kinda wondered, if we could sell all those WSOs that we never used or the ones we no longer use?

                It could obviously create a quite dangerous secondary market...
                What do you think guys? Official rules anywhere?


                Thomas

                Originally Posted by SirThomas View Post

                Bingo! That is exactly the reason, why with digital product, people would instantly
                accuse you of some kind of intellectual contraband! Assumptions.

                It's so unusual to sell unwanted software or ebooks, therefore it must be a
                scam on a larger scale...

                Regarding the guy bootlegging Frank Kern, I wonder how he managed to convert all
                the files to digital format when the product is brand new, unused and unopened?
                (check condition status) That itself is worth WSO of the day award!

                Here is the deal Thomas.

                You are hard-timing people for assuming that you meant to sell multiple copies of the same product to multiple people.

                You say that it was obvious in your original post that you were talking about selling one product to one person.

                I have included your original post here for reference. It is very unclear whether you are talking about one copy or many.

                In fact, if you read the sentence I highlighted in red, it put the context of your entire question in a negative light. It alone changed the meaning of your original question to the meaning that you say you never intended.

                The problem overall is a "failure in communication."

                Many people have failed to understand the meaning of your question. You are blaming the reader. I blame the writer.

                By mentioning a "dangerous secondary marketplace", you distorted your original question to the point that most people could not see your original point.

                And for that reason, this thread has been forced to address two questions in tandem: the first-sale doctrine, and the legality of selling copyrighted digital materials created by other people.

                Even as you argue your point, you are happily addressing both questions equally, as if they were one, and they are not. This only serves to further complicate the thread and confuse those people who are trying to follow this thread.

                So what are we left with at this point?

                You original question had to do with the first-sale doctrine and whether it should be equally applied to digital products.

                Go.
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                • Profile picture of the author SirThomas
                  Originally Posted by tpw View Post

                  Original Post:


                  Here is the deal Thomas.

                  You are hard-timing people for assuming that you meant to sell multiple copies of the same product to multiple people.

                  You say that it was obvious in your original post that you were talking about selling one product to one person.

                  I have included your original post here for reference. It is very unclear whether you are talking about one copy or many.

                  In fact, if you read the sentence I highlighted in red, it put the context of your entire question in a negative light. It alone changed the meaning of your original question to the meaning that you say you never intended.

                  The problem overall is a "failure in communication."

                  Many people have failed to understand the meaning of your question. You are blaming the reader. I blame the writer.

                  By mentioning a "dangerous secondary marketplace", you distorted your original question to the point that most people could not see your original point.

                  And for that reason, this thread has been forced to address two questions in tandem: the first-sale doctrine, and the legality of selling copyrighted digital materials created by other people.

                  Even as you argue your point, you are happily addressing both questions equally, as if they were one, and they are not. This only serves to further complicate the thread and confuse those people who are trying to follow this thread.

                  So what are we left with at this point?

                  You original question had to do with the first-sale doctrine and whether it should be equally applied to digital products.

                  Go.
                  Bill, I know you mean well, but unfortunately, I disagree with the main parts of your assessment.

                  Once again. To me (and obviously to many others too) it IS very clear
                  what I am talking about:

                  " WSOs that we never used or the ones we no longer use"

                  What part of this statement is difficult to understand? Can anybody see me
                  talking about ANY form of COPYING and mass selling? Nope...

                  It's only a "failure in communication", because people want it to be. Period.

                  If people don't quite understand what I meant, they should ask first
                  instead of commenting or accusing. I could easily clarify my post...

                  If someone came to this board and said: "hey, I have these three ebooks
                  I bought last month and no longer need them. Anybody interested?", I
                  would NEVER accuse him of "manufacturing" illegal copies. But that's me...

                  You also bring up this part of my post:
                  "It could obviously create a quite dangerous secondary market..."

                  Yes, I was afraid that it might propel other people to also exchange or sell
                  their digital stuff and create a second-hand type of market. I was actually
                  afraid it may somewhat affect digital info-sellers' sales(profits)...

                  Once again, to me it was obvious, but I can see now that I should've
                  probably explained more clearly what I meant, to avoid silly accusations...
                  My bad.

                  "You original question had to do with the first-sale doctrine and whether it should be equally applied to digital products"

                  That is correct, sir!

                  Thomas
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                • Profile picture of the author yohoho
                  Originally Posted by tpw View Post

                  Original Post:
                  The problem overall is a "failure in communication."
                  Many people have failed to understand the meaning of your question. You are blaming the reader. I blame the writer.
                  I think most people need to go back and read the question again. I, from the very first second I read it, fully understood what he meant. I think his question was very clear. I think his comments were very clear.

                  By mentioning a "dangerous secondary marketplace", you distorted your original question to the point that most people could not see your original point.
                  Not at all. I took it to mean that these sales could be dangerous to the WSO authors on the Warrior fourm. I disagree as you could see if you read my first post in this thread.

                  This is just like what USENET became in it's dying days. Everyone is just waiting to ambush anyone they think they can score points with. They don't read the question carefully and jump to conclusions. There was some truly olympic jumping going on in this thread.
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      • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
        Originally Posted by SirThomas View Post

        Correct, buying a product doesn't give you reproduction rights, unless those rights were released to you.
        How would you sell a digital product without reproducing it?

        You can't sell the original digital file unless you bought it on CD, then you could sell the original file by selling the physical CD. Otherwise, you'd have to sell a reproduction of it. One copy or 1,000, all would be reproductions would they not?
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        • Profile picture of the author SirThomas
          Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

          How would you sell a digital product without reproducing it?

          You can't sell the original digital file unless you bought it on CD, then you could sell the original file by selling the physical CD. Otherwise, you'd have to sell a reproduction of it. One copy or 1,000, all would be reproductions would they not?
          Good point, very technical, but interesting...

          When you download a file, isn't it already a reproduction anyways? In reality
          even unzipping could be considered as reproducing, moving from folder to
          folder too... :-)
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        • Profile picture of the author Michael Mayo
          Hi Dennis,
          That's the way I see it too.

          Although let's say I download a zip file and never use it. So, I decide to sell
          it to someone that wants it.

          I drag and drop the original on my CD burner icon and when the menu
          comes up it asks me if I want to "Move" or "Copy" the file to disk.

          I then choose the "Move" option and the CD is created.

          Next I proceed to clear my temp files and system cache and sell the
          CD to my friend.

          Did I actually reproduce a copy or did I just Move the file to another
          storage device?

          As, Brian said in a prior post, there are good arguments on both sides
          of this topic.

          Have a Great Day!
          Michael
          Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

          How would you sell a digital product without reproducing it?

          You can't sell the original digital file unless you bought it on CD, then you could sell the original file by selling the physical CD. Otherwise, you'd have to sell a reproduction of it. One copy or 1,000, all would be reproductions would they not?
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        • Profile picture of the author yohoho
          Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

          How would you sell a digital product without reproducing it?
          Easy, move it onto a USB stick from my computer. Then put the USB stick in the buyers computer and move it to their computer.

          DONE.
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          • Profile picture of the author Kay King
            No offence sir, but why have you attempted to stifle this interesting conversation in everyone of your posts so far?
            The conversation was 2 months ago - a bit late to argue it. The moment someone loads the product into their computer you have reproduced it.

            Don't you think that the orignal seller would be much happier if I sold my copy to someone else instead of getting my money back from him/her? I am sure that I would in their place.
            I would expect most sellers would rather you didn't buy at all if those are your only choices. Your arguments are only to support doing what you want to do - and it's wrong.
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            • Profile picture of the author yohoho
              Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

              The conversation was 2 months ago - a bit late to argue it.
              I saw the date. It is never to late to post if the topic is still open for comment and it was a topic I was interested in. If it is so late, why did you comment?

              The moment someone loads the product into their computer you have reproduced it.
              That statement does not really make any sense. If you are trying to point out that some residue of digital anything could remain on someones computer after deleting, then so what. The very same thing happens when you ask for a refund. This whole digital copy left on hard drive thing is very silly.

              I would expect most sellers would rather you didn't buy at all if those are your only choices. Your arguments are only to support doing what you want to do - and it's wrong.
              Well I don't see it the same way.

              And my arguments are not just to support what I want at all. I don't understand where you came up with that idea from. My comments are to enter my opinion into the conversation just like everyone else here has done. Whatever gave you the idea that I am trying to support something I want to do. That was one very silly and unjustified comment.
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              • Profile picture of the author Kay King
                I agree with you and several others - in theory.

                When I first began buying ebooks I didn't like them and bought very few. I'm a reader and I go through several physical books each week. I give them to charity to resell. There is only one book and it can only be in one place at a time.

                I happen to think many ebooks and report products are ridiculously overpriced when you compare them to off the shelf books. However, in IM the details change and change rapidly at times. By the time a published book made it to the shelves it would be outdated.

                Another fact is the quality of most ebooks would not make them acceptable to publishers in the first place. I've seen only a handful of ebooks in ten years that would be worthy of publishing as a "shelf" book.

                The big problem is most ebooks have a clear disclaimer at the beginning saying you have no resell or giveaway rights. Don't know how legal or enforceable that requirement is but, even so, I wouldn't violate it.

                If I read a WSO and there's no redeeming info in it - I might ask for a refund but I wouldn't try to resell it. It might not seem logical or fair or reasonable - but the ebook is a different animal and it is what it is.

                For you, the bigger problem is if you are buying 1-2 WSOs every week either you need a better planto choose what is worth buying or you aren't giving a method a fair shot. Keep in mind that every time you click a "buy now" button you become part of the target market for that product.
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                Every child needs a pet because every family needs an optimist

                Saving one dog will not save the world....but will forever change the world for one dog.
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  • Profile picture of the author YOUNEEDTOHEARTHIS
    Banned
    [DELETED]
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    • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
      Originally Posted by YOUNEEDTOHEARTHIS View Post

      99% chance no action will be taken by the author however if you start getting rich from selling it look out
      Thomas,

      My initial reaction that you mean't selling more than one was in response to "converting" whatevers comment at the beginning. I looked through a few of your posts and figured you couldn't have mean't that but a lot of people did, so you proved one thing that interpretation is different from person to person.

      See the quote above for example, having seen the whole thread he thinks or made up a stat that there's a 99% chance of no action unless you start getting rich from selling them, that implies that he's interpreted it to mean selling more than one copy. It also means that the said person should be fine with me buying anything in his signature and then reselling it multiple times, because according to his own stats, there's a 99% chance he won't do anything.
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      Wibble, bark, my old man's a mushroom etc...

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  • Profile picture of the author dagaul101
    I don't think that would be allowed, besides it would annoy the original sellers for certain
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  • Profile picture of the author Josh Anderson
    In the US the penalties for copyright infringement can be as high as $150,000 per infringement.

    This is why some copyright cases quickly rise into the millions in civil and punative damages.

    Even if you do not get sued if you get caught doing this here you will be banned from the warrior forum for life, your reputation will be ruined, and worst of all you will be known as a thief... and people will value you about as much as the shoplifter selling stolen goods on the street corner.

    My advice is to wake up, stop being so nieve, and fly right.
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  • Profile picture of the author Luke Rafferty
    went thru this before only recently, it really depends on who and what you have bought before. best thing to do is contact the author get his/her permission and cut a deal. probably best if everyone gets a cut of the sale.

    or even better get a good relationship/s with WSO authors and become an affiliate - have made good money this way
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  • Profile picture of the author HairyPoppins
    Ya know at first I was like hell no that's total bs. Why would anyone think it's ok to steal.

    But, after reading the arguments for it I totally understand the argument for it. I think this thread sold me. If I made a WSO and someone sold it not on a mass scale of course but on a smaller scale like instead of a return or something I would feel totally comfortable with that.

    I've never been won over before in a thread but hot damn it just happened.
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  • Profile picture of the author lotusdragon
    Re refunds as an option
    has anyone read threads on what people think and do regarding refund requests
    whilst I sympathise that there are serial refund seekers
    if a seller is using a refund guarantee as part of the enticement to buy "no risk, you are completely covered,' etc, etc,
    why slam them when they do.
    Refunds also are used to show the worthiness of a product and the why fores do not seem to count
    such as ' was too advanced for a newbie.'
    Newbies are very vulnerable to getting into deeper debts having the top marketers convince them it's what they need
    before they know enough to make wise decisions
    and they can end up with loads of WSO's they will never use and on lists en-mass and reading them means
    never having time to assess what they have bought.

    I doubt if anyone is actually making the money promised by the WSO that they would want to sell their copy
    for the peanuts they usually bought it for, considering all the hassles involved.
    Was the guy on Ebay making the money from Frank Kern's course that it promised, why would he need to sell it if so
    and why risk it on Ebay, mega uncool.
    I saw a self dev spiritual ebook with full copyrights stated that said you may only pass on one copy.
    I thought that both wise and considerate of human nature

    There are certain craft items that are not meant to be sold on yet have been for many years on Ebay with no discernible come back


    I have read all the often interesting angles on this.
    It seems best to use common sense and 'do unto others as you wish to be done by ' or put another way karma.
    Behave ethically and you in turn will be treated ethically.
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    Loving making an abundant living whilst helping make a difference in our wonderful world
    Considering your customer as friend or family engenders trust and loyalty
    If you feel the same and are into such as Green Lifestyles, Alternative Health and Self Dev
    or exploration of more client centred business models it would be lovely to connect
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