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Whats The Deal With Proof Of Earnings?

by goindeep
37 replies
I want to know why some of the big guns like Frank Kern dont use proof of earnings?

I mean clearly he earns money and sells. IN fact he has people backing his claims of big million dollar launches and what not, yet the small guys, the guys selling WSO's and all that are all so focused on showing prrof of their earnings.

Is this because we genuinely give more credit to someone if they are well known and hence in our own heads we just approve of their claims? Or do we just distrust the people we dont know so well.

Adding to this i've also seen people on the forum in the wso are who do not provide proof of earnings yet they seem to sell their product or service.

Does anyone know if there are some numbers we can work with? For example is there a difference in the amount of sales/conversions from those sales pages and wso's with proof versus those without?

-Andrei
#deal #earnings #proof
  • Profile picture of the author miamijohnrogers
    I think that proof of earnings can help to make new sales to newbies. They see these numbers and think, "wow" that's a lot of money, maybe I can make alot of money too!?"
    Seasoned IM'ers know that proof of income can and will be photoshopped..

    Am I right?
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    • Profile picture of the author KenJ
      Honestly?????

      Proof of earnings in screenshots and videos doesn't prove anything. Zilch, de nada, rien, nichts. Whatever language you want to use!

      So the big guns know this. So they decide not to use it. So proof of earnings means nothing. This is actually nearly clever.

      By not using proof of earnings you give the impressions that it is not needed. Part of the "I don't need to prove anything." mentality.

      So because they don't need to prove their earnings, they prove them.

      Kenj
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      • Profile picture of the author goindeep
        Originally Posted by kenj View Post

        Honestly?????

        Proof of earnings in screenshots and videos doesn't prove anything. Zilch, de nada, rien, nichts. Whatever language you want to use!

        So the big guns know this. So they decide not to use it. So proof of earnings means nothing. This is actually nearly clever.

        By not using proof of earnings you give the impressions that it is not needed. Part of the "I don't need to prove anything." mentality.

        So because they don't need to prove their earnings, they prove them.

        Kenj
        I like this and it makes perfect sense.
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  • Profile picture of the author Suthan M
    Frank Kern already has the branding and the image built. Hence no proof of income.

    Others are trying to build a branding that they are succesful- and they believe that showing proof of income is the fastest way.

    I don't believe in showing proof of income personally and am actively walking away from that. Now i focus on other proofs such as credibility, achievement to make a point.

    People do once in a while drop in and ask me why there is no proof of income though..
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    • Profile picture of the author pacelattin
      Come on, don't 99% of these guys just photoshop junk?
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      • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
        Originally Posted by pacelattin View Post

        Come on, don't 99% of these guys just photoshop junk?
        No!

        They know better. The reason they're "big guns" is because they know how to make money and how to stay in business while doing it.

        Frank was a massive example for everyone of what happens when you cross a boundry in using hypey sales copy.

        You have to be VERY careful when using any sort of earnings claims.

        These are the lessons you should be learning from the big guys.

        It's a good question to ask because there is a valuable lesson to be found in the answer.

        Read Frank's words about it for yourself: http://masscontrolsite.com/blog/?p=57

        Andy
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  • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
    The answer is simple - you're just too young to know.

    He was sued by the FTC in 2003. He left the IM scene for a couple of years and since he returned he never makes any claims.

    Earnings claims are a massive legal pitfall that you don't want to get caught in.

    I know you see it a lot but that's from newbies who don't know better and haven't been burned.
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    • Profile picture of the author goindeep
      Originally Posted by Andyhenry View Post

      The answer is simple - you're just too young to know.
      Wow! Ok then.

      Thats not an answer.

      What where you doing at age 26?

      I have my own web business, manage a national and international team for one of the largest manufacturers on the planet, virtually have no debts, even though i own 2 cars and a large home. But thats all material. I also know at my young age to respect people, old and young, black and white, male and female. Something you have not learned yet... or simply choose not to use.

      lol.

      Please dont be dis-respectul.

      -Andrei
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      • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
        Banned
        Originally Posted by Andrei Rotariu View Post

        Please dont be dis-respectul.
        You misunderstood, Andrei.

        Andy's comment was not in any way disrespectful, and I'm sure it wasn't intended that way, either.

        He was simply pointing out (quite factually, and correctly) that there was, in fact, a very simple answer to your question, but that it arose during the events of 2003, and that there was therefore little reason for you to be aware of it, since (like me) you probably weren't around and working online at the time, as Andy himself was.

        As Andy wisely says, above, earnings claims are a massive legal pitfall that you don't want to get caught up with. One sees them a lot but that's from newbies who don't know better, and haven't yet had to deal with the legal/regulatory fallout. And he's quite right.
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      • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
        Originally Posted by Andrei Rotariu View Post

        Wow! Ok then.

        Thats not an answer.

        What where you doing at age 26?

        I have my own web business, manage a national and international team for one of the largest manufacturers on the planet, virtually have no debts, even though i own 2 cars and a large home. But thats all material. I also know at my young age to respect people, old and young, black and white, male and female. Something you have not learned yet... or simply choose not to use.

        lol.

        Please dont be dis-respectul.

        -Andrei
        Dude - you got the wrong meaning of my comment - I wasn't talking about your age, but how long you've been in the IM niche. This problem with Frank was EVERYWHERE at the time.

        If you're not aware of it and why people stay away from earnings claims then it's highly likely that you just weren't around on the scene when it happened.

        So, please don't jump to the wrong conclusions and then get ****ty with me - respect goes 2 ways.

        BTW - when I was 26 I was serving my country in the military and had been for 9 years.
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        • Profile picture of the author goindeep
          Originally Posted by Andyhenry View Post

          Dude - you got the wrong meaning of my comment - I wasn't talking about your age, but how long you've been in the IM niche. This problem with Frank was EVERYWHERE at the time.

          If you're not aware of it and why people stay away from earnings claims then it's highly likely that you just weren't around on the scene when it happened.

          So, please don't jump to the wrong conclusions and then get ****ty with me - respect goes 2 ways.

          BTW - when I was 26 I was serving my country in the military and had been for 9 years.
          Fair enough. Moving on swiftly.
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      • Profile picture of the author kindsvater
        Be careful Andy. Because if you are not 100% glowing about some people they leave infractions all over the board.

        The bottom line: if you want to know why Frank Kern does not use proof of earnings why don't you ask him?

        He has a Warrior account. Or you can find him through one of his many websites.

        That would be better than posting a thread that invites speculation and gossip.

        .
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        • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
          Originally Posted by kindsvater View Post

          Be careful Andy. Because if you are not 100% glowing about some people they leave infractions all over the board.

          .
          Infractions? Really? Are people really like that?

          I guess you never know. I didn't think I had said anything bad about anyone.
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    • Profile picture of the author Tony Marriott
      I think there are a number of things going on here.

      All the "teachings" for sales copy say show proof of earnings, it's massive plus. Sure most "gurus" and big launches did and it clearly worked.

      I think there has been some backfire from "faked" earnings. I mean really just faked (or at least the stories abound) or that earnings are real but not related to the method the current product is promoting.

      Those factors have hit hard at the credibility of earnings.

      Now the FTC have also hammered and will "punish" unsubstantiated "earnings" claims.

      Now Clickbank has fallen into line and will not allow sales pages with unsubstantiated or unrealistic earnings claims (and a lot of big launches are done through Clickbank). So that has really stopped a lot of this.

      Personally I made a decision along time ago to not show "earnings" on my sales pages (I confess I did on my first IM product -genuine I may add).

      I tend to focus on other results and benefits, like showing search engine rankings for instance, that can easily substantiated by prospective customers.

      Personally I've always found income claims a bit "garish". Like "look at me I'm wonderful"

      I think that once you stop claiming anyone can make $1000 a day for two hours work and all in their first week you remove some of the barriers that stop people become successful anyway.

      You can set more realistic expectations that might actually be achievable. If people aren't continually expecting a magic overnight solution and they can see success by actually achieving some lower but realistic goals then long term you are actually doing them a great favor.

      And customers who see success become raving fans.
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  • Profile picture of the author DavidDylan
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    • Profile picture of the author KenJ
      Originally Posted by DavidDylan View Post

      Integrity is the best way to do business! theres no need to lie... and make figures up, people buy off people they like, know and trust... end of story!
      Good point.

      Knowing and trusting real people is inbeatable.

      Kenj
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  • Profile picture of the author timpears
    'Proof of earnings screen shots' only prove things to people that don't know any better. More than a few people have been caught Photoshopping their screen shots.

    In a discussion here a few weeks ago, I created one where I showed a million dollars in AdSense earnings for one day. I did this just to prove a point. It took me five or ten minutes to do it, and I am not very good with Photoshop.

    Frank doesn't need to prove anything, his reputation precedes him. Others feel they need to, and then some feel they need to expand on it with the help of Photoshop. Thus anyone who has been around for more than a few weeks tends to just ignore the screen shots.
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    • Profile picture of the author goindeep
      If you did want to use a proof of earnings. It would probably be better to use an actual camera and film yourself logging into your bank account or something like that. Ive seen this technique used before too.
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      • Profile picture of the author Tony Marriott
        Originally Posted by Andrei Rotariu View Post

        If you did want to use a proof of earnings. It would probably be better to use an actual camera and film yourself logging into your bank account or something like that. Ive seen this technique used before too.
        The problem is that it does not prove that the earnings you are seeing were created by the method that is being promoted.

        I could video my Paypal account which has thousand of dollars going into into it every week but not all from one income steam. I could promote a method and use that as proof. It would be genuine and not photoshoped, but it would not be real earnings for the product I am selling.
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        • Profile picture of the author goindeep
          Originally Posted by Tony Marriott View Post

          The problem is that it does not prove that the earnings you are seeing were created by the method that is being promoted.

          I could video my Paypal account which has thousand of dollars going into into it every week but not all from one income steam. I could promote a method and use that as proof. It would be genuine and not photoshoped, but it would not be real earnings for the product I am selling.

          Yeah thats right. Obviously you would expand and drill down on the method i stated, but you get the idea.
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      • Profile picture of the author tpw
        Originally Posted by Andrei Rotariu View Post

        If you did want to use a proof of earnings. It would probably be better to use an actual camera and film yourself logging into your bank account or something like that. Ive seen this technique used before too.

        There is a very good reason not to show earnings, besides those reasons already stated.

        When you go to the convenience store on the bad side of town, do you pull out your wallet with $5000 in $100 bills it?

        Certainly not, and if you did, you might get your lights knocked out in the parking lot and your wallet stolen.

        People are fully capable of Googling information about you whether you like it or not.

        If I were so inclined, I could find where you live and look at your house on Google Earth. People have done the same for me, and critiqued my choice of residences. LOL

        If people would do that to me, then people could do that to you as well.

        Go ahead and post screen shots of your earnings, log into your financial accounts on video, and let the chips fall where they may.

        If the criminal element that uses the Internet to troll for victims finds you, what is to stop them from kicking down your door, and stealing what you have earned?

        LOL

        I guarantee you that there are trolls in this forum who are mumbling to themselves right now, "Go ahead punk. Make my day."
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        Publish Coloring Books for Profit (WSOTD 7-30-2015)
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        • Profile picture of the author Robert Michael
          Originally Posted by tpw View Post

          There is a very good reason not to show earnings, besides those reasons already stated.

          When you go to the convenience store on the bad side of town, do you pull out your wallet with $5000 in $100 bills it?

          Certainly not, and if you did, you might get your lights knocked out in the parking lot and your wallet stolen.

          People are fully capable of Googling information about you whether you like it or not.

          If I were so inclined, I could find where you live and look at your house on Google Earth. People have done the same for me, and critiqued my choice of residences. LOL

          If people would do that to me, then people could do that to you as well.

          Go ahead and post screen shots of your earnings, log into your financial accounts on video, and let the chips fall where they may.

          If the criminal element that uses the Internet to troll for victims finds you, what is to stop them from kicking down your door, and stealing what you have earned?

          LOL

          I guarantee you that there are trolls in this forum who are mumbling to themselves right now, "Go ahead punk. Make my day."
          Whats to stop them?

          Oh I don't know, my legally registered GLOCK model 22? Same model the police use.. lol or maybe my legally registered Mossberg 12 gauge? OR how about my .380? My .45?

          And I'm not "trolling" here. Being 100% serious.

          Doctrine laws protect you from being prosecuted for murder if you have to use deadly force to protect yourself, your property, or your loved ones from harm. So I don't know about you guys, but I have no problem defending what is mine and the things/people that I care about...

          Trust me, I hope I never have to shoot anyone. But if I SHOULD have to, I know for a fact my GLOCK isn't gonna jam. And it has 15 shots per magazine, 1 loaded with hollowpoints and one loaded with regular ammunition.

          I doubt an intruder high on PCP would still be standing.

          So again - Whats to stop them?

          YOU
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  • Profile picture of the author Robert Michael
    What works for one person isn't guaranteed to work for another.. So proof of earnings, even if they ARE real, means absolutely nothing.

    Sure, YOU may have made 5 million dollars with something, but that doesn't mean everybody who uses it will make 5 million dollars.
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    • Profile picture of the author Tony Marriott
      Originally Posted by Whos That Guru View Post

      What works for one person isn't guaranteed to work for another.. So proof of earnings, even if they ARE real, means absolutely nothing.

      Sure, YOU may have made 5 million dollars with something, but that doesn't mean everybody who uses it will make 5 million dollars.
      Rats! I just bought that WSO as well

      Andrei Rotariu
      Yes, I agree that a video will instill more confidence than a screen shot
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  • Profile picture of the author WillR
    People who need to use earnings screenshots to push their product are usually lacking in something else. They might have a crappy product, they are no good at copywriting, whatever. It's like the 40 year old guy driving down the highway in his red porsche with the roof down - you just know he is missing inches where it really counts.

    To me those screenshots should be renamed to 'proof of idiot'.

    A great product will be able to stand on it's own legs without any need for proof of earnings.
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  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
    Andrei,
    Fair enough. Moving on swiftly.
    THIS I respect. Acknowledge and get on with it. Nicely said, sir.

    Now, as far as earning claims... Ken nailed it. They prove nothing. Even when they're true. They're irrelevant to the customer's results. You may have more skills or less than the seller. You may have more of an affinity for the process, or be completely deficient in what's needed to make it work. You may put in more time, or just coast. Hell, the seller could be putting in very little time and under-representing the potential.

    Or they could be all lies, which still has nothing to do with whether the thing will work for you.
    If you did want to use a proof of earnings. It would probably be better to use an actual camera and film yourself logging into your bank account or something like that. Ive seen this technique used before too.
    Proves nothing. That can easily be faked.


    Paul
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    • Profile picture of the author pacelattin
      I've seen a lot of these "big guns" CPA network accounts. These guys who claim making million from some of these networks are faking it. They have a few one-hit wonders, ($100k..$200k.. maybe mroe) and then try to sell their "secrets"

      Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

      Andrei,THIS I respect. Acknowledge and get on with it. Nicely said, sir.

      Now, as far as earning claims... Ken nailed it. They prove nothing. Even when they're true. They're irrelevant to the customer's results. You may have more skills or less than the seller. You may have more of an affinity for the process, or be completely deficient in what's needed to make it work. You may put in more time, or just coast. Hell, the seller could be putting in very little time and under-representing the potential.

      Or they could be all lies, which still has nothing to do with whether the thing will work for you.Proves nothing. That can easily be faked.


      Paul
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      • Profile picture of the author tpw
        Originally Posted by pacelattin View Post

        I've seen a lot of these "big guns" CPA network accounts. These guys who claim making million from some of these networks are faking it. They have a few one-hit wonders, ($100k..$200k.. maybe mroe) and then try to sell their "secrets"

        If they earned more on one campaign that I have in a year, then maybe I could learn from them, even if they are not making that same money now.


        Originally Posted by Whos That Guru View Post

        Whats to stop them?

        Oh I don't know, my legally registered GLOCK model 22? Same model the police use.. lol or maybe my legally registered Mossberg 12 gauge? OR how about my .380? My .45?

        And I'm not "trolling" here. Being 100% serious.

        So again - Whats to stop them?

        YOU

        I know you are serious. I live in Oklahoma after all.
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        Bill Platt, Oklahoma USA, PlattPublishing.com
        Publish Coloring Books for Profit (WSOTD 7-30-2015)
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  • Profile picture of the author blillard
    I look at earnings as a way to add to the emotional impact of their sales letter to show you that hey Im making money with this and you can too. You have to look at these with a grain of salt. It may help with the purchase decision, but that is all it does. Like many have said the system may have worked that well for them and not guaranteed to work the same for you.

    In these days though it seems like many want to see these things so marketers add them. I see this more with newbies and catering to that crowd. I rather just contact past buyers for updated reviews on the product to see if they have any good reusults with it.
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    • Profile picture of the author Marcus Demanse
      Originally Posted by blillard View Post

      I look at earnings as a way to add to the emotional impact of their sales letter to show you that hey Im making money with this and you can too. You have to look at these with a grain of salt. It may help with the purchase decision, but that is all it does. Like many have said the system may have worked that well for them and not guaranteed to work the same for you.

      In these days though it seems like many want to see these things so marketers add them. I see this more with newbies and catering to that crowd. I rather just contact past buyers for updated reviews on the product to see if they have any good reusults with it.
      A rather good point to remember especially for newbies who tend to get wide-eyed at astounding figures.
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      • Profile picture of the author Azarna
        I am still giggling at the story on the radio the other day of the guy who had been advertising his book with claims of how he made hundreds of thousands of dollars in just three months.

        And the IRS now wanted their share, please.
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      • Profile picture of the author PatriciaJ
        I would be reluctant to buy anything that has 'proof of earnings' because it's what you earn that counts not what somebody else earns.

        What I want to know is how something will save me time or help me, not what somebody earns or pretends to earn.
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  • Profile picture of the author mikesdebp
    Most of the 'earnings' I have seen are in fact Sales and not earnings. Earnings are Sales - Expenses. So when you see someone claiming say $8,716 one day sales - you should ask "How much did they spend to get that!"
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  • Profile picture of the author JamieSEO
    Originally Posted by mikesdebp View Post

    Most of the 'earnings' I have seen are in fact Sales and not earnings. Earnings are Sales - Expenses. So when you see someone claiming say $8,716 one day sales - you should ask "How much did they spend to get that!"
    If you have any digital image, it can be manipulated to show whatever you want.

    There are internet marketers that 'borrow' other peoples proof.

    Like Mike stated, proof of earnings is pretty much useless anyway. Who cares if you made $10,000 in one day if you had to spend $9,999 to do it!

    Reality check
    All that matters is profit
    At the end of the day I want to know how much money will be in my pocket!
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  • Profile picture of the author imdomination
    I never use proof of earnings in anything I sell. It can be faked too easily. Instead, I offer a 30 day money back guarantee on all of my products.

    I'd be surprised if more than half the screenshots in the WSO forum were even remotely real.
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  • Profile picture of the author kenshin193
    For me in some cases proof of earning is required...especially if you are new..just my 2cents
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    • Profile picture of the author Istvan Horvath
      Originally Posted by kenshin193 View Post

      For me in some cases proof of earning is required...especially if you are new..
      Actually, it shows how new YOU are if you still believe in that kind of stuff

      Those who believe in "proof of earnings" deserve to get the worst IM products,
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  • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
    This whole discussion reminds me of the ones about getting rankings in Google.

    Who cares what rankings someone else got (or faked)? if you can't get the results YOU need for your business to succeed.

    There's a LOT of areas of IM that people put focus in order to give importance to irrelevant things in order to sell information about it.

    At some point you have to stand up for yourself and hold yourself accountable for your own results.

    Sure - learn from others, but if you're expecting someone else to tell you how YOU should be successful - you're only asking for trouble and disappointment.

    Andy
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    nothing to see here.

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