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WSO Award Badges... Good Idea OR Bad Idea?

by WillR
52 replies
Those of you who frequent the WSO section have probably noticed a new trend of late. I am sure you have seen the large increase in the amount of third party sites whose sole business model is the promotion of popular WSO's.

Until recently signatures WERE allowed in the WSO section. This meant some owners of those WSO review sites were able comment or leave a 'review' on popular WSO threads and subsequently promote their WSO website at the same time. This happened quite a bit and it was usually very obvious. To be fair it was not ONLY WSO websites doing this type of thing... either way signatures were banned as a result.

With the banning of signatures in the WSO section they have now had to find another way to promote their WSO review sites. You may have noticed some WSO websites are now awarding badges or 'pick of the day' type awards and they are posting these awards right into the popular WSO threads, thus advertising their website at the same time. They are offering no value to the WSO thread at all - it's clear their main objective is to hijack some traffic back to their site and/or get the word out about their WSO site.

IMO this is no worse than the signature spam that used to occur. It's also no worse than those people who are always one of the first to comment on popular WSO threads with really vague comments about the character of the person selling the product NOT the actual product itself. These type of comments are nothing more than a branding exercise and a waste of time for potential buyers.

I always thought reviews were to be about the product and nothing else? It's not a place to post badge images. It's not a place to tell us what your WSO website awarded this WSO. It's not a place to comment on someones character. It is a place for buyers to give their HONEST opinion about the product they just purchased.

So I ask you... fair or not fair?

I thought it worth discussing BEFORE this becomes common practice.
#award #bad #badges #good #idea #wso
  • Profile picture of the author Kay King
    I don't think it should be allowed - but not my forum. Going farther, I don't think "WSO of the day" should be allowed either...so....

    Proof that as Paul Myers says - if you create a rule people will only look for ways to get around it.
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  • Profile picture of the author bhuff85
    Agreed - that's why I don't frequent the WSO section like I used to anymore. It's lost its luster, really.

    The WSOPro affiliate option is great, but I'm seeing more and more marketers just abuse the crap out of it. I used to get good, solid e-mails from some reputable marketers from here. Once WSOPro made an affiliate option though, I saw many make the switch to promote every single thing they could get their hands on. In fact, I'm dropping one of my subscriptions from a reputable member here who has sent nothing but sales pitch after sales pitch since I purchased one of their products a couple days ago. No - I didn't buy your product to get on your list to get offers for more products from the WF. Not even a single valuable e-mail - just pitch after pitch.

    I agree that those "review sites" are a little out of hand too. It's crazy how much the WSO section has "evolved" in the last few years...
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      Evolved is a good word - or spun out of control - or degenerated into a pitchfest.

      Yeah - evolved sounds better. We'll use that one.
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  • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
    Banned
    It should be reported and not allowed. It's just a way to get around the "no signature trolls" rule. I would ask a mod to remove it if there were any in my sales pages.
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  • Profile picture of the author Richard Tunnah
    Another thing I've noticed more and more recently is new members posting a WSO and getting a great review from an 'established' warrior. Only if you read the small print or between the lines do you realise the established warrior is doing a JV on the wso with the new warrior. That for me discredits the WSO as the established warrior isn't going to say this WSO I'm part of is a load of tosh!

    I think more clarity in the WSO would be helpful particularly to newly joined members.

    Rich
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    • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
      Mel Brooks nailed it...

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    • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
      Originally Posted by Richard Tunnah View Post

      Only if you read the small print or between the lines do you realise the established warrior is doing a JV on the wso with the new warrior. That for me discredits the WSO as the established warrior isn't going to say this WSO I'm part of is a load of tosh!
      Okay, so just out of curiosity...

      If somebody brings me a crap WSO, do you honestly think I would JV on it?

      If somebody brings me a great WSO, do you honestly think I would not JV on it?

      You're basically saying that if someone brings me something awesome and says "please help me, I'll give you half the money" I should turn it down just so it doesn't look bad. If I believe in the WSO, hell yes I will help you with it for half the money. What self-respecting marketer wouldn't?!
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      • Profile picture of the author Kay King
        I didn't see anything against JVs. But if you are a JV partner in a WSO, you should be stating that if you post a rave review of the product in the WSO thread.

        If you have a financial interest and post as if you are only a satisfied buyer, that's snarky.

        kay
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      • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
        Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

        Okay, so just out of curiosity...

        If somebody brings me a crap WSO, do you honestly think I would JV on it?

        If somebody brings me a great WSO, do you honestly think I would not JV on it?

        You're basically saying that if someone brings me something awesome and says "please help me, I'll give you half the money" I should turn it down just so it doesn't look bad. If I believe in the WSO, hell yes I will help you with it for half the money. What self-respecting marketer wouldn't?!
        I agree if Richard meant his post the way you interpretted it. When I read his post I thought he meant the JV partner is posting a great review without disclosing that he is a partner, in that case, Richard has a good point.

        Perhaps Richard will clarify what he meant.
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  • Profile picture of the author Ken Strong
    Originally Posted by WillR View Post

    You may have noticed some WSO websites are now awarding badges or 'pick of the day' type awards and they are posting these awards right into the popular WSO threads, thus advertising their website at the same time.
    Report the post. It will be deleted, along with any other similar posts by that member. At least that's what's going to happen if I see the report.
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  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
    ^
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    What Ken said.
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      To expand on Ken's comment... I think it's fine if the seller wants to put the badge or whatever into their own OP. I'm not going to tell them they can't use something like that. But if the person "bestowing" the "award" posts it... Yeah.

      What Ken said.


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      • Profile picture of the author Suthan M
        To tell you the truth,

        practically most of the WSO threads has some awards or other from different providers.

        If you don't get "WSO of the Day" , no worries, there is still "WSO A Day", Daily WSO, WSO Pick Of The Day and 100 different "award" site .. :p

        We always make fun of what lines people will cross to make a sale at other site- can't believe it is happening just a subforum away here as well
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      • Profile picture of the author GarrieWilson
        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

        To expand on Ken's comment... I think it's fine if the seller wants to put the badge or whatever into their own OP. I'm not going to tell them they can't use something like that. But if the person "bestowing" the "award" posts it... Yeah.

        What Ken said.


        Paul
        But wont that lead to more people being mislead? The readers may think it actually means something. Like the "hacker safe" badges people use for a small fee.

        Just imagine an official looking award just like the ""wso of the day" was done.

        -g
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        • Profile picture of the author Ken Strong
          Originally Posted by GarrieWilson View Post

          But wont that lead to more people being mislead? The readers may think it actually means something. Like the "hacker safe" badges people use for a small fee.
          Well geez... at some point we just can't hold everyone's little bitty hand every step of the way. They'll just have to be on their own and use their own critical judgement every once in a while.

          Just imagine an official looking award just like the ""wso of the day" was done.
          I imagine it would be no more, and no less "official" than WSO of the Day is.
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          • Profile picture of the author GarrieWilson
            Originally Posted by Ken Strong View Post

            Well geez... at some point we just can't hold everyone's little bitty hand every step of the way. They'll just have to be on their own and use their own critical judgement every once in a while.


            I imagine it would be no more, and no less "official" than WSO of the Day is.
            No you can't but if people are using things to mislead and make it appear as an official edorsment then the forum does have a responsibility to, at the very least, limit it. Since the ads are approved by the forum.

            MANY people thought and still think "WSO of the Day" is official and endorced by Allen.

            Now to get the image ad in, people will just send them to the WSO poster and let them add the badge. Much like shareware sites do. All with the intent of making it appear to be something it's not.

            Garrie
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            • Profile picture of the author Rod Cortez
              MANY people thought and still think "WSO of the Day" is official and endorced by Allen.
              I just wanted to add a comment on this one sentence. You're right, a lot of people do think that. While it's definitely not "official" nor does he endorse the "WSO Of The Day", Allen does endorse WSO Pro here. So people read that and then make the wrong assumption that he also endorses the WSO Of The Day when, in fact, he is only endorsing the use of WSO Pro.

              RoD
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          • Profile picture of the author JennySweets
            Originally Posted by Ken Strong View Post



            I imagine it would be no more, and no less "official" than WSO of the Day is.
            When I was a brand newbie I bought a WSO, not knowing about Warriors plus. I bought it and on the access page saw an ad for WSO Of The Day! and it SOUNDED like an awesome product..

            it wasn't. it was ok but I still don't know what made it WSO of the day. But as a newbie it gave credibility to the WSO creator to me, and they got my money, and an upsell.

            Lesson learned, but that did kind of suck when I finally realized Warriors Plus had no actual connection to Warrior Forum.
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            • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
              Garrie,

              They're not going to be able to start the ad off with an award. If they get one later and add it, how is that the business of the mods here to stop? As long as they don't make it look official, that is?

              We put the skids to the "Voted best WSO of the Weekend" thing, since there really wasn't any basis to that. Different story, though.

              A seller using an award badge is one thing. Someone else posting it in a WSO thread is another thing entirely. That falls squarely within the range of self-promotion, which is why I'm comfortable nuking it on sight.

              If it becomes sufficiently confusing, or creates other problems, yeah. We'll look at it. For now, it just isn't that big a deal. Any real proliferation of those awards may backfire, when the majority of WSO buyers realize they mean nothing and are just a gimmick used by people who want to grab a free ride off the forum's traffic.

              WSOtD seemed official because it was, for a long time, the only such "award." Now... Not so much.


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              • Profile picture of the author Alan Petersen
                Any badge inferring an aura of legitimacy/review/approval needs to scrutinized by the individual consumer.

                Even badges from the likes of the Better Business Bureau come at a price.


                It's up to the individual to take responsibility for their purchasing decisions when it comes to the validity of such things as these badges, since its' mostly just another marketing tool not a seal of approval or quality.
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              • Profile picture of the author GarrieWilson
                Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                They're not going to be able to start the ad off with an award. If they get one later and add it, how is that the business of the mods here to stop? As long as they don't make it look official, that is?
                The intent makes it the mods businesses but I was mainly just pointing out the issue that will be next, how it will be abused and suggesting to stop it before its a issue.

                Just imagine someone "revewing" a WSO for a fee and giving them a "TOP Wso AWARD." It, of course, will be added after the launch to give it further credibilty.


                We put the skids to the "Voted best WSO of the Weekend" thing, since there really wasn't any basis to that. Different story, though.
                I still see "WSO of ___" ads and since its in the WSO forum, they think it's official. Of course that is the intent.

                IMHO it's no different than taking a random quote and putting it on a sales page to make it look like an endorsement.


                A seller using an award badge is one thing. Someone else posting it in a WSO thread is another thing entirely. That falls squarely within the range of self-promotion, which is why I'm comfortable nuking it on sight.

                If it becomes sufficiently confusing, or creates other problems, yeah. We'll look at it. For now, it just isn't that big a deal. Any real proliferation of those awards may backfire, when the majority of WSO buyers realize they mean nothing and are just a gimmick used by people who want to grab a free ride off the forum's traffic.
                Sorry I think things should be nuked before they are a problem and cause damage. Saying "no awards/badges" is pretty easy and should only bother people who had bad intentions.

                Of course I would have nuked the badge posters instead of just deleting their post. After all, they knew what they where doing.

                -g
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                • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                  Garrie,

                  They get caught charging a fee for a positive review, and both the reviewer and seller who paid them will be permanently banned. And they will get caught.
                  Sorry I think things should be nuked before they are a problem and cause damage.
                  Sorry, I don't think it's a good idea to take any more away from the honest members than is necessary to keep real damage out. "Caveat emptor" isn't meant to protect the creeps, you know...

                  If we disallowed every behavior that could be abused, there'd be no forum left.


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            • Profile picture of the author WillR
              Originally Posted by JennySweets View Post

              When I was a brand newbie I bought a WSO, not knowing about Warriors plus. I bought it and on the access page saw an ad for WSO Of The Day! and it SOUNDED like an awesome product..

              it wasn't. it was ok but I still don't know what made it WSO of the day. But as a newbie it gave credibility to the WSO creator to me, and they got my money, and an upsell.
              That's the thing with 'WSO of the Day'. Mike has to promote a WSO each and every day. I am sure there are some days where there are probably no WSO's worthy of promotion. Most other marketers wouldn't promote on these days. Due to the fact it is WSO of the Day Mike HAS to pick at least one. This means some days the WSO promoted will be the best of the best. Some days it will end up being the best pick of a bad bunch. And every day it will only be the best pick of those that are using Warrior Plus as their payment processor. So it is just that... the best WSO they can find using Warrior Plus on any given day.

              It's just like Nicole Kidman winning an Oscar. It doesn't necessarily mean she is a great actor, it just means she was the best actor out of all actors for that year.
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              • Profile picture of the author Alan Petersen
                Originally Posted by WillR View Post

                That's the thing with 'WSO of the Day'. Mike has to promote a WSO each and every day. I am sure there are some days where there are probably no WSO's worthy of promotion. Most other marketers wouldn't promote on these days. Due to the fact it is WSO of the Day Mike HAS to pick at least one. This means some days the WSO promoted will be the best of the best. Some days it will end up being the best pick of a bad bunch. And every day it will only be the best pick of those that are using Warrior Plus as their payment processor. So it is just that... the best WSO they can find using Warrior Plus on any given day.

                It's just like Nicole Kidman winning an Oscar. It doesn't necessarily mean she is a great actor, it just means she was the best actor out of all actors for that year.
                My understanding is that the selections are based on sales volume not on the actual content of the WSO. Or does Mike actually review every WSO he selects for "WSO of the Day"?
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                • Profile picture of the author WillR
                  Originally Posted by Alan Petersen View Post

                  My understanding is that the selections are based on sales volume not on the actual content of the WSO. Or does Mike actually review every WSO he selects for "WSO of the Day"?
                  I think it's a bit of both. Mike has to look after two people - himself and his list. Just like any other list owner Mike wants to earn the most he can from his list but it's also in his best interest to be careful about the offers he promotes. All it takes is a couple of poor recommendations and his list becomes less receptive.

                  I have heard others say he choses products based solely on EPC (earnings per click) but I don't believe that is his only criteria - it would be pretty silly of him if it were. He is sitting on a goldmine and I'm sure he knows that and treats his list accordingly. Having said that I am sure that a large number of those WSO's that have high EPCs probably do so for a reason. A lot of them would be good products by reputable sellers.

                  I also know he couldn't possible review the content of every WSO he promotes and he has openly admitted that before - it would be impossible with some of the big 'how to' courses. But he has said that he will try and check out the product and have a look around before promoting.

                  Of course all of this is just speculation - only Mike knows how he really chooses the products he wishes to promote.
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    • Profile picture of the author Michael Mayo
      Maybe the WSO section should be set(if possible) that only the OP can have Images in
      the thread. It wouldn't solve the url posts in a thread but it would solve part of the
      problem.

      Just a thought,
      Have a Great Day!
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      • Profile picture of the author WillR
        Originally Posted by Michael Mayo View Post

        Maybe the WSO section should be set(if possible) that only the OP can have Images in
        the thread. It wouldn't solve the url posts in a thread but it would solve part of the
        problem.

        Just a thought,
        Have a Great Day!
        Michael
        I too thought about that but it is nice to allow those who want to share screenshots or even examples of things they have created using the WSO. After all, it is only the VERY small minority who are taking advantage of images.

        As mentioned above, even if you disabled images they would just find another way. Video awards! In fact I came across one or two people using video in the same way about a month or two ago. They were posting video 'reviews' on all the popular WSO threads (I put the word review in quotation marks because they were VERY generic) and even without playing the video you could clearly see their huge watermark in the video that displayed the url of their WSO review website.
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        • Profile picture of the author Michael Mayo
          Originally Posted by WillR View Post

          I too thought about that but it is nice to allow those who want to share screenshots or even examples of things they have created using the WSO. After all, it is only the VERY small minority who are taking advantage of images.

          As mentioned above, even if you disabled images they would just find another way. Video awards! In fact I came across one or two people using video in the same way about a month or two ago. They were posting video 'reviews' on all the popular WSO threads (I put the word review in quotation marks because they were VERY generic) and even without playing the video you could clearly see their huge watermark in the video that displayed the url of their WSO review website.
          Will, Good Point.
          I guess we'll just have to Report/Nuke them when they do it.

          Have a Great Day!
          Michael
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  • Profile picture of the author Webbatron
    If the main reason you brought the product was because somebody you respect and is well established within this forum recommended it, then surely you would trust they would not be putting their name to something that does not meet their standards and reputation.

    Would your opinion change if they were making money from you? For promoting the product? Early reviews are likely to be from people who were given the product for free for the sole purpose of review?

    The reality is if the individual has a reputation for good products and recommendations, then the truth is they are likely to be both a satisfied "customer" who has used the product and seen value in it, and a financial benefactor should you also buy the product.

    Maybe I have a different view to people, but the first question shouldn't be "who has recommended this" or "what badge has this won today" but "can this product move my business forward" if so, then you can go on to do your own due diligence on the integrity of the product and the reviews.

    "Caveat Emptor"
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    • Profile picture of the author WillR
      Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

      Proof that as Paul Myers says - if you create a rule people will only look for ways to get around it.
      Spot on Kay.

      I'm sure many of you will have heard Paul respond to requests for rule changes in the past with that exact response. This is a perfect example of what happens when rules change. I don't think getting rid of WSO signatures was a bad move... I think it's removed a lot of crap from the WSO section. But it DOES go to show you how quickly people WILL find new ways to get around any rule changes that don't agree with their business model.

      I think it's actually quite neat being able to sit back and see the way some of these creative minds think... and then delete their posts of course.

      I just wanted to get it out there. A lot of times these people continue on thinking no one has been smart enough to realize what they are up to. At least by having a little talk about it they will know big brother IS watching.
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      • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
        Originally Posted by WillR View Post

        But it DOES go to show you how quickly people WILL find new ways to get around any rule changes
        Bear in mind that posting in the WSO thread with a signature is something you could say was not your fault because your signature goes on everything you post.

        Posting a badge linked to your website in the WSO thread, on the other hand, is clearly something you did on purpose because you are a dick.

        Which is my understanding of why this change was made. It doesn't stop people from being dicks and posting their crap in WSO threads... it just makes it very, very obvious that they are doing it on purpose.
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  • Profile picture of the author stephenwaldo
    I mean, is there even a discussion to be had? Obviously it's spam and should not be tolerated. The rule should just be NO SELF PROMOTION in someone else's WSO or you will get banned.

    There, problem solved. Report a self promoting post and get them banned.

    Course, as someone already said, not my forum so not my rules.

    - Stephen

    EDIT: @CDarklock - I totally agree. The problem isn't the sigs themselves, the problem is when you obviously are just promoting your own service...Many times without even picking up a copy of the $7 WSO whose thread you're hijacking to leave a legitimate review! People just do anything they can to make money, even if it means walking over other people.
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  • Profile picture of the author Eddie Titan
    Great point Will. I think the last thing we need on this forum are people trying to take other people's business. There should be some respect between WSO sellers.

    I say Unfair.
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  • Profile picture of the author Nicola Lane
    As we are talking about people trying to find ways around the rules - has anyone else noticed a rash of people running around threads putting in useless one liners. The sort of thing that looks like someone has just read the thread title and put in a quick one liner that may possibly have something to do with the subject.

    One of them has just been banned - but I am seeing a few. It is the sort of thing that just appears stupid from one post - but when you look at their history and look at the threads you can see it.
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  • Profile picture of the author Cool Hand Luke
    Haha wow this thread is the definition of irony considering the OP's signature link currently is an ad for his WSO with a big headline bragging of it's "WSO of The Day" award.

    This thread has now absolutely crossed the line from a solid topic to discuss into pure self promotion.
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    • Profile picture of the author WillR
      Originally Posted by Cool Hand Luke View Post

      Haha wow this thread is the definition of irony considering the OP's signature link currently is an ad for his WSO with a big headline bragging of it's "WSO of The Day" award.

      This thread has now absolutely crossed the line from a solid topic to discuss into pure self promotion.
      Before commenting perhaps you might re-read my original post and discover what this thread is actually about. It always helps...
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  • Profile picture of the author StevenJones
    I agree with you Will, this shouldn't be allowed. The "honest" approach of these WSO websites could be contacting a WSO owner and say they feature his WSO on their website. Give them some kind of badge or whatever, so the "control" goes back to the owner of the thread.
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    • Profile picture of the author sgoerger
      Originally Posted by StevenJones View Post

      I agree with you Will, this shouldn't be allowed. The "honest" approach of these WSO websites could be contacting a WSO owner and say they feature his WSO on their website. Give them some kind of badge or whatever, so the "control" goes back to the owner of the thread.
      Now that's the right approach. I actually think the wso sites are a good idea...at least, now that it's been opened up to affiliates through warrior plus, from my IMer's perspective, a site like that is at least worth a shot. But the shoddy self-promotion practices of putting a badge on someone else's thread is terrible. Send the badge to the OP, let them decide if your badge has value for them, and if it is in their mind worth it to JV with you.

      I guess that's one thing, too...if a WSO review site is promoting your WSO, you had to approve them for that (affiliate-wise). You can always disapprove them as an affiliate if you don't like their tactics.
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  • Profile picture of the author John Taylor
    Damnit... that's a pity. I was planning the
    brand new "Crap WSO of The Day" badge.

    I reckoned there would be a huge market
    for that award!

    I guess that's out of the window now?

    Oh well, back to the drawing board. ;-)

    John
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    • Profile picture of the author Nicola Lane
      Originally Posted by John Taylor View Post

      Damnit... that's a pity. I was planning the
      brand new "Crap WSO of The Day" badge.
      I think this would be a hugely valuable service - especially for all the people who can't do their own due diligence!

      Unfortunately there may be one or two WSO vendors who would consider this to be some sort of sabotage of their paid for advert.:confused:

      Shame!
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      I like to keep an open mind, but not so open that my brains fall out

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      • Profile picture of the author Kay King
        This means some days the WSO promoted will be the best of the best. Some days it will end up being the best pick of a bad bunch. And every day it will only be the best pick of those that are using Warrior Plus as their payment processor. So it is just that... the best WSO they can find using Warrior Plus on any given day.
        And the requirements are listed on the site. The two basics are using the payment system and agreeing to JV with WPlus.
        What is "WSO of the Day" and how can my WSO be featured?

        I think it's clear anything that is posted with the goal of drawing attention away from the seller's paid WSO thread is a reportable post. If in doubt, report it and let the mods decide.

        kay
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      • Profile picture of the author John Taylor
        Originally Posted by Nicola Lane View Post

        I think this would be a hugely valuable service
        I agree Nicola. But...

        especially for all the people who can't do their own due diligence!
        I don't think it's a good idea to provide people
        with a perceived safety net (AKA Blame hound).

        This is a business we are in and business can be
        ruthless... people need to be accountable for their
        actions and choices.

        John
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        • Profile picture of the author Nicola Lane
          Originally Posted by John Taylor View Post

          This is a business we are in and business can be
          ruthless... people need to be accountable for their
          actions and choices.

          John
          Actually I agree - I should have included a few LOL's! I meant it in the same spirit that you proposed it.

          I was thinking of the people who regularly come up with the idea that the WSO section needs cleaning up, or some sort of review process, or something that means that they don't have to take responsibility when they choose to believe that it is possible for an absolute beginner to click a few buttons and wake up to thousands in their bank account.
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          I like to keep an open mind, but not so open that my brains fall out

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  • Profile picture of the author Regional Warrior
    It's just like Nicole Kidman winning an Oscar. It doesn't necessarily mean she is a great actor, it just means she was the best actor out of all actors for that year.
    Careful there buddy there house is just up the road !
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    • Profile picture of the author troy23
      Nothing wrong with it, but they should change the award name to

      'Scammer of the year'
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  • Profile picture of the author Regional Warrior
    Just made this for the videos that are used in the WSOs thought it may catch on:rolleyes: tis a joke BTW

    Jason
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  • Profile picture of the author fitz10
    So WillR as I understand it, you're okay with people posting "I Won WSO of the Hour" in their own WSO post, but if the awarder of the award posts with a badge that's wrong? Should Mike Lantz then be able to post in a WSO mentioning WSO of the Day? If you're going to ban people from doing something like that it needs to be fairly applied across the board.

    Personally, I think all these WSO "endorsements" just confuse people. Lets face it, many people buying WSOs are not members of the community aside from the WSO board and when they see something like WOTD they think of it as an "official endorsement". Cut all this crap and we'd be better off. That's strictly my opinion.
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  • Profile picture of the author imdomination
    Yeah, I'm all for getting rid of that blatant self-promotional crap. I realize we're all marketers, but this is still a forum community where people should be providing value by posting and not simply advertising their websites and nothing else.
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