WSOs & OTOs - a recommendation

by Reg
86 replies
I've purchased literally hundreds of WSOs the last few years and have only requested a refund probably not even a handful of times (less than 5). That number was just added to because of a OTO (I'm disliking OTOs more all the time).

After purchasing the WSO I was taken to the Warrior Plus page where I clicked the button to access my purchase. After going through some hoops I finally got to the WSO but the first page I saw was for a OTO for the WSO I just purchased.

It wasn't until I went back and reread the WSO copy and a number of comments that it became clear as to how what the OTO was and how it related to the WSO.

I'm aware of upselling and cross selling and know that they can have merit or demerit, depending on how and when used. I'm finding that way too many WSOs are now including OTOs to somehow complete/enhance the WSO being promoted. More and more I'm being left with the similar negative impression I get when purchasing a car or airfare ticket (what's on the sticker price is not what's there when the deal is fully disclosed). From the increasing number of comments I've been reading of late many others are sensing something similar.

For the above reason I'm disliking OTOs more all the time and would like to suggest the following remedy........

All WSOs that include a OTO make full disclosure of the OTO and the part it plays to the WSO being promoted in the sales copy.[/B]
#otos #recommendation #wsos
  • Profile picture of the author browie
    I think they should disclose this in the sales page.

    I am thinking about how to incorporate a OTO too and personally as the seller I want people to know about it so that this type of thread doesn't happen.
    Signature
    *** Browie dot com *** - Yes, I'm The Browie
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5008336].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Kecia
    Yes, I think the seller should be upfront about OTO's. It could ultimately affect whether or not I wanted to purchase the product.
    Signature
    KeciaHambrick.com - Blogger. Content Creator. Social Media Enthusiast.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5008430].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Mark Hess
    I don't believe it should be mandatory to reveal the OTO in the sales copy. If you have any questions or concerns prior to purchase, ask in the sales thread. This type of information might not only be valuable for you, but other prospective buyers as well...

    The whole OTO thing has garnered a lot of hate recently... I find a good way around this (without pissing too many Warriors off) is to have a vertical OTO and not one that's directly attached to the information being shared in the frontend offer. For instance, think if a person buys 'this', they may also be interested in 'this' as well.

    You can still make some money off the OTO without making customers feel the frontend purchase was lacking in some way without the OTO. This is a different marketplace from the 'outside' world...

    Just my 2 cents...
    Signature
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5008442].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Kecia
      Originally Posted by Mark Hess View Post

      I don't believe it should be mandatory to reveal the OTO in the sales copy. If you have any questions or concerns prior to purchase, ask in the sales thread. This type of information might not only be valuable for you, but other prospective buyers as well...
      I've noticed that quite a few WSO sellers (sometimes intentionally) avoid questions regarding the OTO like it's a secret. They will respond to the member's other questions, or the ones that were asked before and after the reply with the OTO question, but won't touch on the OTO itself.

      Luckily, that is usually remedied by a buyer replying and mentioning what the OTO is.
      Signature
      KeciaHambrick.com - Blogger. Content Creator. Social Media Enthusiast.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5008618].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
    What if the OTO is a product that is similar to the WSO, but has no bearing whatsoever on the effectiveness of the WSO?

    Generally speaking, adding more rules is not a good idea. It may seem like a good idea, but there are ALWAYS unintended consequences.

    However, if an OTO is absolutely required to make a WSO work, then I may ask for a refund. A WSO (or any product) should do what the sales letter claims, and at the price it claims. If you all of a sudden need something else, then the seller was relying on subterfuge.

    Still, requiring such disclosure won't work the way you think it will. I guarantee it.

    Also, I don't think it's as big of a problem as you say it is. If you are finding that a lot of the WSOs you are buying have bad OTOs, then maybe you need to ask yourself why you are buying so many WSOs.

    So...here's my suggestion: don't buy from that seller again. Also, if you ever do an OTO, be sure to explain it in minute detail on the WSO page; you know "full disclosure".

    All the best,
    Michael
    Signature

    "Ich bin en fuego!"
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5008461].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Ken Strong
    I'm puzzled why OTOs are such a big issue in a marketing forum... we're talking about literally a few extra seconds to click the "No, thanks" button, right? What if the OTO turned out to be something you wanted, and you made extra money as a result?

    Personally, I don't think being annoyed at an OTO is a good reason to ask for a refund. Certainly, as a customer you have the right to post in the WSO thread and complain about it there if you want.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5008459].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Alex Barboza
    I don't think it is necessary. I have no problems with OTO's if they are really optional. I mean, I just say no and go and download the product I purchased. If I noticed that the product does not deliver its promise and I need the OTO to make it work then I just ask for a refund.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5008462].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author imdomination
    I completely agree that no Warrior should ever have to buy a OTO in order to complete the steps required in the original WSO.

    However, I don't really see anything wrong with the seller offering something that makes the initial process easier (eg. a website template, WP plugin, etc) for an extra fee. It's just like most companies offer you a cake to go with your coffee. You don't need to buy it, and you can enjoy your coffee by itself, but you might enjoy it more if you had a delicious slice of cheesecake to go with it.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5008478].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Dean Shainin
      In some WSO's I've had OTO's that are vertical. In other words they've already got there WSO and they have the opportunity to take advantage of the OTO if they want to without any disruption. The reason I do it this way, and it's much more time consuming at my end to say the least, is because being forced into looking at a OTO before you can get your WSO might piss some people off. When I purchase, I really don't care because it usually only takes a few seconds to hit the no thanks...It can get very annoying when you have an up sale and say no, only to be redirected to a down sale, etc.
      Signature

      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5008554].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Ken Strong
      Originally Posted by imdomination View Post

      I completely agree that no Warrior should ever have to buy a OTO in order to complete the steps required in the original WSO.
      I think there's some confusion in this thread. I've never heard of a WSO where you were required to buy an OTO before you could download the product you just paid for. Obviously, if someone did that, someone would immediately report the WSO and it would be closed right away.

      We're also not talking about forced opt-ins for WSOs, which is a different issue that's also generated an endless number of threads already. I think we're talking about optional One-Time Offers, or upsells, in other words.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5008653].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Johnny Slater
        Ken,

        I believe the OP is talking about buying a WSO and then finding out it is totally useless if you don't buy the OTO. I have seen a few where the OTO is required to make the main product work.

        In other words, the main product is 50% of of the required information and to get the rest of what you need to make the first half work at all you must buy the OTO or you are not getting enough information to even do anything at all with the initially purchased main product.

        I might be reading this wrong but this is what I got out of the OP.

        Originally Posted by Ken Strong View Post

        I think there's some confusion in this thread.
        Signature

        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5008703].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Tom B
          Banned
          Originally Posted by Johnny Slater View Post

          Ken,

          I believe the OP is talking about buying a WSO and then finding out it is totally useless if you don't buy the OTO. I have seen a few where the OTO is required to make the main product work.

          In other words, the main product is 50% of of the required information and to get the rest of what you need to make the first half work at all you must buy the OTO or you are not getting enough information to even do anything at all with the initially purchased main product.

          I might be reading this wrong but this is what I got out of the OP.

          That is misleading at best. I didn't get that from the op. Enhancing a product purchase isn't the same thing as making it useless.

          Selling you a way to get traffic to a site won't make it any more useless if I upsell you on a software program that automates the process. As long as you can manually get that traffic then the offer is solid with or without the upsell purchase.

          Far too many people expect everything for $7 here. Wishful thinking! ha
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5008763].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author E. Brian Rose
          Originally Posted by Johnny Slater View Post

          I believe the OP is talking about buying a WSO and then finding out it is totally useless if you don't buy the OTO. I have seen a few where the OTO is required to make the main product work.
          I haven't seen one that goes that far yet.

          There are plenty of WSOs that sell a tool or gadget that does exactly what is advertised and then there is an OTO for something that does it faster and does a few other things, as well. I have no problem with that whatsoever.

          If there are OTOs that you are required to buy or else your original purchase is useless... that is just false advertising.
          Signature

          Founder of JVZoo. All around good guy :)

          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5010393].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author kindsvater
            OTO - a One Time Offer - is basically a high pressure sales technique. You only have one shot to get something.

            I don't like the concept at all.

            In the context of a WSO you buy and expect to receive a product.

            Instead, you buy and discover what you bought was an advertisement with the real offer hidden and being presented to you in a high pressure sales context.

            A far different sales context than the original WSO.

            You have to make a decision about the OTO before receiving your product.

            That is a problem in my view. When the OTO decision is forced before the purchased product is received.

            How can one make an informed decision if the OTO is an any way related to the product if the product has not yet been received?

            If the OTO is presented after the product is provided that is a different story. You review the product and then decide if you want something more or something else.

            But - that really wouldn't be a OTO then and does not seem to be how it is done.

            If a OTO is necessary for the WSO that is fraud.

            If it is not necessary, why present it as a OTO?

            My .02 - if a purchase related OTO is hidden and not presented until after purchase, but before the product is delivered, by definition there is deception.

            After purchasing the WSO I was taken to the Warrior Plus page where I clicked the button to access my purchase. After going through some hoops I finally got to the WSO but the first page I saw was for a OTO for the WSO I just purchased.
            IMHO - that WSO should be reported to the WF help desk and to Mike Lantz for removal.

            .
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5010525].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author Michael Shook
              I read threads like this with an interested ear, and I always find it odd that people cannot figure out why the buyer of a product is irritated by an OTO.

              Then i read about the idea of an OTO being a way to maximize conversions or profit or a way to get noticed to be the WSO of the Day and I don't get why the connection that seems apparent is not understood by some people.

              If you are a marketer and you know that the reason an OTO is there is to maximize profit - at your expense as the buyer - why wouldn't you be irritated.

              Here we play both roles buyers and sellers, maybe not everyone, but enough people that are both on occasion.

              Most of the people, I would venture to say, when they go to McDonald's, already have a pretty good idea what the french fires taste like, so if they like them and want more at a bargain price, they can make an intelligent decision as to whether to get that upsell or not.

              Not so much in the case of a WSO where you don't know if the product you are buying is going to be suited to your purposes or not. It might be or it might not, you really have no way of knowing and no real reason to make an intelligent purchasing decision right this minute except that you are pretty sure that somebody who is a marketer is trying to get more of your money, before you have a chance to use their product.

              That is, of course, from a buyer's perspective, not from a seller's viewpoint, and whether you are a marketer or not for a profession, when it comes to buying a WSO, you are more than likely, a buyer.
              Signature


              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5010722].message }}
              • Profile picture of the author Tom B
                Banned
                Originally Posted by JMichaelZ View Post

                I read threads like this with an interested ear, and I always find it odd that people cannot figure out why the buyer of a product is irritated by an OTO.

                Then i read about the idea of an OTO being a way to maximize conversions or profit or a way to get noticed to be the WSO of the Day and I don't get why the connection that seems apparent is not understood by some people.

                If you are a marketer and you know that the reason an OTO is there is to maximize profit - at your expense as the buyer - why wouldn't you be irritated.

                Here we play both roles buyers and sellers, maybe not everyone, but enough people that are both on occasion.

                Most of the people, I would venture to say, when they go to McDonald's, already have a pretty good idea what the french fires taste like, so if they like them and want more at a bargain price, they can make an intelligent decision as to whether to get that upsell or not.

                Not so much in the case of a WSO where you don't know if the product you are buying is going to be suited to your purposes or not. It might be or it might not, you really have no way of knowing and no real reason to make an intelligent purchasing decision right this minute except that you are pretty sure that somebody who is a marketer is trying to get more of your money, before you have a chance to use their product.

                That is, of course, from a buyer's perspective, not from a seller's viewpoint, and whether you are a marketer or not for a profession, when it comes to buying a WSO, you are more than likely, a buyer.
                I just purchased a microphone to do some voice over for training videos and sales videos. I also wanted one I could travel with.

                I spent hours on Amazon looking at reviews trying to find the best mic for what I want to do.

                I finally made my decision and purchased that bad boy. Man, I am excited because the sound is pretty good but also it is small so I can travel easy with it.

                While making my purchase I was offered the ability to get a pop filter.

                What the heck, why is Amazon trying to sell me a pop filter? I want a microphone and now Amazon is telling me that I need a pop filter if I want crisp audio for my videos.

                This is absolutely insane. So after purchasing both, I plan on writing a rant on this forum and sending Amazon a nasty letter saying how dare they upsell me a pop filter when the microphone was suppose to do what I wanted without having to purchase anything else ever again.

                Now I have to look at computers to plug the dang microphone in so I can attach the pop filter to it. I can only imagine they will try to sell me one with more ram, or a webcam or some other nonsense like that.
                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5011013].message }}
                • Profile picture of the author Michael Shook
                  Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

                  I just purchased a microphone to do some voice over for training videos and sales videos. I also wanted one I could travel with.

                  I spent hours on Amazon looking at reviews trying to find the best mic for what I want to do.

                  I finally made my decision and purchased that bad boy. Man, I am excited because the sound is pretty good but also it is small so I can travel easy with it.

                  While making my purchase I was offered the ability to get a pop filter.

                  What the heck, why is Amazon trying to sell me a pop filter? I want a microphone and now Amazon is telling me that I need a pop filter if I want crisp audio for my videos.

                  This is absolutely insane. So after purchasing both, I plan on writing a rant on this forum and sending Amazon a nasty letter saying how dare they upsell me a pop filter when the microphone was suppose to do what I wanted without having to purchase anything else ever again.

                  Now I have to look at computers to plug the dang microphone in so I can attach the pop filter to it. I can only imagine they will try to sell me one with more ram, or a webcam or some other nonsense like that.
                  I re-read my post and realized that I had meant to pretty narrowly include WSO's and maybe it did not sound that way. And I brought up the issue of the french fries at McDonald's to say that many people are familiar with the french fries and want more, so an upsell is a no-brainer. Perhaps there is some better way i could have worded that so it would be clearer.

                  Your example is about you, it could be that your experience and opinions are different from others here, I don't really know.

                  I do think I have postulated a reasonable idea about why some people are irritated at OTO's on WSO's, maybe not. For sure, my ideas don't apply to everyone.

                  In all honesty, I am a fan of knowing what's in the box so I can consider buying it and especially I would like more if I know that the product I am buying is really good. But sometimes that takes a bit of practicing with it before I know that the product is going to work for me.

                  No harm in that, I actually think that is a reasonable basis for a long-lasting relationship between a seller and a buyer. I think there is nothing quite like personal proof that something works great to increase both frequency of sale and scale of sale. Both good things in my book.

                  As far as requiring info about the WSO up front, I don't know, I am not so much of a "Hey, kids, let's make another rule" kind of person. As far as it being a good idea so that buyers can make an informed decision as to whether or not to increase their purchase amount, that doesn't sound all that bad.
                  Signature


                  {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5011352].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Tom B
    Banned
    Originally Posted by Reg View Post

    I've purchased literally hundreds of WSOs the last few years and have only requested a refund probably not even a handful of times (less than 5). That number was just added to because of a OTO (I'm disliking OTOs more all the time).

    After purchasing the WSO I was taken to the Warrior Plus page where I clicked the button to access my purchase. After going through some hoops I finally got to the WSO but the first page I saw was for a OTO for the WSO I just purchased.

    It wasn't until I went back and reread the WSO copy and a number of comments that it became clear as to how what the OTO was and how it related to the WSO.

    I'm aware of upselling and cross selling and know that they can have merit or demerit, depending on how and when used. I'm finding that way too many WSOs are now including OTOs to somehow complete/enhance the WSO being promoted. More and more I'm being left with the similar negative impression I get when purchasing a car or airfare ticket (what's on the sticker price is not what's there when the deal is fully disclosed). From the increasing number of comments I've been reading of late many others are sensing something similar.

    For the above reason I'm disliking OTOs more all the time and would like to suggest the following remedy........

    All WSOs that include a OTO make full disclosure of the OTO and the part it plays to the WSO being promoted in the sales copy.[/B]

    Maybe you should just stop buying stuff and start selling it. Funny, I am always happy when someone starts complaining about something I am doing. That normally means it is working.

    It is normally people that don't do much besides buying a lot of stuff that complain about it.

    How about you do your own thing and let others take care of how they run their businesses? Sound fair, eh?
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5008745].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author eskimoto
      Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

      Maybe you should just stop buying stuff and start selling it. Funny, I am always happy when someone starts complaining about something I am doing. That normally means it is working.

      It is normally people that don't do much besides buying a lot of stuff that complain about it.

      How about you do your own thing and let others take care of how they run their businesses? Sound fair, eh?
      current or potential customer tells you what he thinks about the industry hence gives you some free market research and you are telling him to **** off? get a grip mate!
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5012933].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
        Originally Posted by eskimoto View Post

        current or potential customer tells you what he thinks about the industry hence gives you some free market research and you are telling him to **** off? get a grip mate!
        At first glance that seems to make sense, but let's remember...

        One person does not a market make.

        While feedback can be valuable, a single complaint needs to be compared against the whole.

        Also, this IS a marketing forum where people use marketing techniques [GASP!!!]. But here's something I haven't seen mentioned in this thread, and that is the real answer...

        Test it!

        Each marketer needs to test if an OTO works for them or not.

        Oh, and another thought on the idea that somebody whining about being marketed to is somehow "valid market research"...how does anybody except the seller know?

        What I mean is that there is an assumption that OTOs are costing people net sales. Maybe a few sales are lost, but if the OTOs eventually bring in more money, then a few lost sales or refunds don't really matter.

        By the way, I am only referring to legitimate OTOs, and not those that are needed to make the WSO work (an OTO that makes a WSO easier is totally acceptable).

        All the best,
        Michael
        Signature

        "Ich bin en fuego!"
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5013642].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Tom B
        Banned
        Originally Posted by eskimoto View Post

        current or potential customer tells you what he thinks about the industry hence gives you some free market research and you are telling him to **** off? get a grip mate!
        HAHA If I listened to rants on this forum I would be broke like most of them. Luckily, I understand that someone posting what he likes doesn't mean squat. Lot's of people say they hate video, pop ups, daily emails, blah blah blah and those are the things that put money into my pocket. Must be enough people out there that don't mind it. The silent majority maybe?

        Hopefully some day you learn the same thing or you can use this free market research yourself and make no money. Up to you mate!
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5013851].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author tpw
          Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

          HAHA If I listened to rants on this forum I would be broke like most of them. Luckily, I understand that someone posting what he likes doesn't mean squat. Lot's of people say they hate video, pop ups, daily emails, blah blah blah and those are the things that put money into my pocket. Must be enough people out there that don't mind it. The silent majority maybe?

          Hopefully some day you learn the same thing or you can use this free market research yourself and make no money. Up to you mate!

          Since the beginning of radio and TV, people have hated advertising, but they listen to it and respond to it.

          Since the early days of the Internet, the purists have hated all forms of online commerce and advertising, yet online commerce is a $227 billion per year industry...

          After two rocky years, e-commerce spending reached $227.6 billion in 2010, up 9 percent over the previous year with holiday growth hitting 12 percent, even better than ComScore originally forecast.

          Source
          So the question is, should marketers listen to whiners or continue doing what has been proven to be effective for their businesses?

          If I chose to listen to whiners, I could give up my online business and go have sit-in's with other whiners who have nothing better to do than to go to protests about people who do well in commerce.
          Signature
          Bill Platt, Oklahoma USA, PlattPublishing.com
          Publish Coloring Books for Profit (WSOTD 7-30-2015)
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5013936].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author Tina Golden
            Wouldn't the simplest thing be to utilize the report system that is already built in to the WSO section? If the OTO is actually necessary to making the original offer useful, then ask for a refund and report the deceptive WSO.

            I highly doubt that this practice is commonplace since I buy a TON of WSOs and have never encountered a situation where I had to purchase the OTO in order to make the front end offer work.
            Signature
            Discover how to have fabulous, engaging content with
            Fast & Easy Content Creation
            ***Especially if you don't have enough time, money, or just plain HATE writing***
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5014002].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author Tom B
            Banned
            Originally Posted by tpw View Post

            So the question is, should marketers listen to whiners or continue doing what has been proven to be effective for their businesses?

            If I chose to listen to whiners, I could give up my online business and go have sit-in's with other whiners who have nothing better to do than to go to protests about people who do well in commerce.

            It is a different mindset. When someone complains about something I actually take notice and test it. Anything that can trigger an emotional response to get people to post rants on a forum has got to work. haha

            I am talking ethical; not stealing or scamming people (I would call it a scam if the main product wasn't usable without the upsell).

            This is one way I use this forum to make money. It has increased my earnings a lot just by watching people complain and test what they are complaining about.
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5014060].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author tpw
              Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

              It is a different mindset. When someone complains about something I actually take notice and test it. Anything that can trigger an emotional response to get people to post rants on a forum has got to work. haha

              I am talking ethical; not stealing or scamming people (I would call it a scam if the main product wasn't usable without the upsell).

              This is one way I use this forum to make money. It has increased my earnings a lot just by watching people complain and test what they are complaining about.

              Nice insight.

              My brain has been moving in this direction, but I did not actually put it together until you said it.

              I'd hit the Thanks button, but they seem to be missing at the moment.
              Signature
              Bill Platt, Oklahoma USA, PlattPublishing.com
              Publish Coloring Books for Profit (WSOTD 7-30-2015)
              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5014125].message }}
              • Profile picture of the author Tom B
                Banned
                Originally Posted by tpw View Post

                Nice insight.

                My brain has been moving in this direction, but I did not actually put it together until you said it.

                I'd hit the Thanks button, but they seem to be missing at the moment.
                You can write "Thanks" on your forehead and take a picture. :p

                I made more money from stuff like that then selling wso products. I think a lot of people miss the real gold in these hills.
                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5014130].message }}
                • Profile picture of the author tpw
                  Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

                  BTW, we raised an extra $450 by putting an upsell on Ken Strong's benefit.

                  Excellent. I was actually impressed that you incorporated the Dan Ariely strategy in the pricing structure.


                  Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

                  I made more money from stuff like that then selling wso products. I think a lot of people miss the real gold in these hills.

                  I don't doubt that for a second.
                  Signature
                  Bill Platt, Oklahoma USA, PlattPublishing.com
                  Publish Coloring Books for Profit (WSOTD 7-30-2015)
                  {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5014167].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author celente
              Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

              It is a different mindset. When someone complains about something I actually take notice and test it. Anything that can trigger an emotional response to get people to post rants on a forum has got to work. haha

              I am talking ethical; not stealing or scamming people (I would call it a scam if the main product wasn't usable without the upsell).

              This is one way I use this forum to make money. It has increased my earnings a lot just by watching people complain and test what they are complaining about.
              tis actually a good point!

              Testing and tweaking is all of this game, and this forum gives you the ability to do this in seconds.
              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5017370].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author timpears
    I would like to know if there is going to be an upsell and an idea of the cost. I purchased a $12 product some time back and found the upsell was more than $100 and quite necessary if I wanted to sell the sites I made with this product. Quite a surprise.

    The product wouldn't work and the seller couldn't be contacted as he was trying to sell his business, including his Worrier Forum ID. PayPal gave me my money back fairly quickly as when I filed the dispute it immediately changed it to claim and I got my money refunded within a week.

    I am a bit hesitant to buy upsells as if the product is worth while, then I shouldn't need to buy anything else to make it work. But I understand the reasons for it. But if I needed to buy the upsell, maybe I shouldn't have bought the it in the first place. That is why I would like to know.
    Signature

    Tim Pears

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5008770].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author ExRat
      Hi,

      With respect to all, this looks like another thread with multiple differing issues all being discussed at once and as always a further confusing combination of buyer and seller perspectives.

      As far as I can see, the main problem Reg has had is that the WSO in question is quite confusing regarding what the buyer gets and for what price.

      Sometimes I believe that these type of things are deliberately misleading, but I don't think that this one necessarily is and the WSO in question also has [INSERT ADD TO CART BUTTON HERE] errors and links to videos which don't work and appear to have been inadvertently left in the WSO template (which leads me to conclude that it's just a bit of a clumsy presentation.)

      Part of the confusion appears to come from the 'test drive' wording in the guarantee which I think is simply a confusing way of saying 'buy it and refund it if you don't like it.'

      I don't know how many of you analyse WSOs and their stats, but in my opinion the main reasons for many of the current OTOs are because a lot of sellers are going with high or 100% commission on the front-end for two specific reasons - a) due to their ultimate goal of running the WSO (list building) b) to try and be selected for WSO of the day/gain affiliates in general.

      Therefore, some people are trying to claw a little income from the process via the upsell/OTO, others are using it to help achieve b) above by dangling an even greater carrot.

      With respect Reg -

      For the above reason I'm disliking OTOs more all the time and would like to suggest the following remedy........
      Bearing in mind that I think the real problem here is a badly presented and confusing WSO (not the OTO itself) and for other reasons too, I often wonder why buyers of WSOs present remedies here for sellers, particularly when most of the buyers I see doing this aren't really understanding the processes at work and the main concerns of the sellers - which is most often not based around the concerns of a single buyer who happens to refund.

      No offence meant to you Reg or anyone else, I'm just trying to help and maybe educate by sharing my opinion and viewpoint based on my own observations and experiences.
      Signature


      Roger Davis

      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5008995].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Lena
        Absolutely agree.

        I hate OTO's just because it makes it sound as all other hyped products

        I am totally ok with OTO when it's stated on the sales page whether we need it or not
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5009028].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Tom B
          Banned
          Originally Posted by Lexi76 View Post

          Absolutely agree.

          I hate OTO's just because it makes it sound as all other hyped products

          I am totally ok with OTO when it's stated on the sales page whether we need it or not
          Stop purchasing hyped up, magic buttons. That takes care of your problem.
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5009168].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
        Originally Posted by ExRat View Post

        I don't know how many of you analyse WSOs and their stats, but in my opinion the main reasons for many of the current OTOs are because a lot of sellers are going with high or 100% commission on the front-end for two specific reasons - a) due to their ultimate goal of running the WSO (list building) b) to try and be 'selected' for WSO of the day/gain affiliates in general.

        I think that sums it up really.

        It's now the normal practice to give 100% away on the front end and make money on the upsell. I've seen a lot of people make decent money by promoting higher ticket products (often not even theirs) in the OTO. WSOs seem to be much more of a JV effort these days with the person running the WSO not being the one making most of the money from the sales/oto.
        Signature

        nothing to see here.

        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5009030].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Tom B
        Banned
        Originally Posted by ExRat View Post

        No offence meant to you Reg or anyone else, I'm just trying to help and maybe educate by sharing my opinion and viewpoint based on my own observations and experiences.
        Actually Roger , I think the main point is to correct your own behavior instead of trying to correct someone else.

        Reg needs to stop buying if he/she doesn't enjoy it. Too often, people think they need to change how others do business instead of correcting their behavior. Sorry, it doesn't work like that.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5009158].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Duce
    Just my 2 cents....I feel as long as the OTO doesn't have a direct impact on the WSO then no. But if you need the OTO in order to implement the WSO then yes. That's actually having the best of both worlds.


    -eugene
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5008943].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author WebPen
    I still think its funny that a marketing forum gets so PISSED when it comes to upsells.

    I've purchased my fair share of WSOs, and NONE of them required the upsell. Sure it can make things go faster, but it wasn't required.

    Getting mad at the upsell is like getting mad at a strong call to action or a good headline. It's a well-known marketing principle that upsells work, so why not use them?
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5009180].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
      Originally Posted by Justin Stowe View Post

      I still think its funny that a marketing forum gets so PISSED when it comes to upsells.

      I've purchased my fair share of WSOs, and NONE of them required the upsell. Sure it can make things go faster, but it wasn't required.

      Getting mad at the upsell is like getting mad at a strong call to action or a good headline. It's a well-known marketing principle that upsells work, so why not use them?
      Yeah! And PLEASE Get Rid of the Red, Centered, Large Headlines!

      The Subheadlines Need to Go, Too!

      (None of that stuff works anyway.)
      Signature

      "Ich bin en fuego!"
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5009251].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author TiffLee
        Originally Posted by Michael Oksa View Post

        Yeah! And PLEASE Get Rid of the Red, Centered, Large Headlines!

        The Subheadlines Need to Go, Too!

        (None of that stuff works anyway.)
        ... my copywriting business is doomed if that is the case.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5009281].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author tpw
        Originally Posted by Ken Strong View Post

        I think there's some confusion in this thread. I've never heard of a WSO where you were required to buy an OTO before you could download the product you just paid for. Obviously, if someone did that, someone would immediately report the WSO and it would be closed right away.

        We're also not talking about forced opt-ins for WSOs, which is a different issue that's also generated an endless number of threads already. I think we're talking about optional One-Time Offers, or upsells, in other words.
        Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

        Maybe you should just stop buying stuff and start selling it. Funny, I am always happy when someone starts complaining about something I am doing. That normally means it is working.

        It is normally people that don't do much besides buying a lot of stuff that complain about it.

        How about you do your own thing and let others take care of how they run their businesses? Sound fair, eh?
        Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

        That is misleading at best. I didn't get that from the op. Enhancing a product purchase isn't the same thing as making it useless.

        Selling you a way to get traffic to a site won't make it any more useless if I upsell you on a software program that automates the process. As long as you can manually get that traffic then the offer is solid with or without the upsell purchase.

        Far too many people expect everything for $7 here. Wishful thinking! ha
        Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

        Actually Roger , I think the main point is to correct your own behavior instead of trying to correct someone else.

        Reg needs to stop buying if he/she doesn't enjoy it. Too often, people think they need to change how others do business instead of correcting their behavior. Sorry, it doesn't work like that.
        Originally Posted by Michael Oksa View Post

        Yeah! And PLEASE Get Rid of the Red, Centered, Large Headlines!

        The Subheadlines Need to Go, Too!

        (None of that stuff works anyway.)

        Folks. I ran out of Thanks buttons a couple hours back.

        Ken: You seem to have some influence around here... Maybe you can help out. :p

        I saw this thread and my first thoughts were the same as Thomas':

        Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

        Actually Roger , I think the main point is to correct your own behavior instead of trying to correct someone else.

        Reg needs to stop buying if he/she doesn't enjoy it. Too often, people think they need to change how others do business instead of correcting their behavior. Sorry, it doesn't work like that.

        If someone doesn't like the way I sell things, they should refrain from buying from me.

        And if someone thinks they can do better, they should get off their thumb and something productive with their superior intelligence, rather than to bitch and moan about how I do things.
        Signature
        Bill Platt, Oklahoma USA, PlattPublishing.com
        Publish Coloring Books for Profit (WSOTD 7-30-2015)
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5013792].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Kay King
          current or potential customer tells you what he thinks about the industry hence gives you some free market research and you are telling him to **** off? get a grip mate!
          Would you take advice from someone BELOW you on the learning curve? Is that how you run your business? What's next? Demand the OTO be part of the WSO or fully explained before you buy the original WSO?

          If a WSO had one price for a sale where there was an OTO - and a higher price for a sale with no OTO....which would you buy?

          Some sellers set low WSO prices because they know their profit is in the OTOs - welcome to the real world of marketing. Don't like an OTO - don't read it. Just scroll to the bottom and click the "no thanks" link.

          If an offer has an additional component that could help you use the WSO product better or automate it - wouldn't you want the opportunity to buy it at a special price?

          kay
          Signature
          Saving one dog will not change the world - but the world will change forever for that one dog.

          I'm going to work on being less condescending
          (Condescending means to talk down to people)
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5013901].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author E. Brian Rose
        Originally Posted by Michael Oksa View Post

        Yeah! And PLEASE Get Rid of the Red, Centered, Large Headlines!

        The Subheadlines Need to Go, Too!

        (None of that stuff works anyway.)
        None of it works for who? You?
        Signature

        Founder of JVZoo. All around good guy :)

        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5016745].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author doryharvey
    I dont have a problem with OTO as long as they are not the missing piece of the wso product puzzle so to speak. I have purchased a fair amount of wso's and some have disappointed me with their "squeeze as much money out of the buyer as possible" OTO that really only put me off buying from that seller again.

    There are some great wso out there you just have to find them
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5009756].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author mikemcmillan
    If you buy a WSO, or even a Clickbank product for that matter, and an OTO appears and it states the OTO product is needed or required in order for the main product to function... don't complain about it here. Contact PayPal or CB and they will shut the merchant down in a heartbeat--neither allow that kind of thing.

    If, however, the OTO is an adjunct supplementing the base product, but not required for the implementation of the original product as it was advertised--I consider that simply a case of good marketing.

    This is an Internet marketing forum. To criticize people here who use accepted techniques for elevating sales is ludicrous. In fact, if the base product was something I bought because I thought it would help me, I would like to learn about additional products by the vendor that could help me even more.

    A mod just the other day reminded people complaining about pricing on WSOs that this forum is not a dollar store. If you expect people to run value-laden WSOs and only charge you a few bucks--and then get upset because the try to recover their costs on the back end--you don't understand what making money online is all about.

    Requiring disclosure of OTOs on the sales pages for WSOs is ridiculous. The vendor paid to run their WSO. It's a free market economic model. If you want to disclose the fact you have an OTO built into your offer--go for it. That's your choice. But don't make that choice for others.

    As long as the base product delivers the goods in terms of how it was described, that's all I care about. If you worry about any more than that, you've got too much time on your hands.

    Anyone can start their own forum related to IM. It's a free country. Allow people to run paid ads like you see here. Put a $3 maximum price on products. No upsells, OTOs, joint ventures, affiliates, or download page promotions. Get back with me on how that works out for you.

    Had a burr up my ass when reading through this thread. Think I got it. Yeah, feels better now. Relief!!!

    --Mike
    Signature

    I'll help you create a reputation-building evergreen product in any niche and launch it successfully!
    Check it out here.

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5009782].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author sal64
    As stated already... why do people on a marketing forum get pissed at being marketed to?

    When will you realize that you are NOT your customer.

    On an other note...

    My OTO is for additional content that will save the customer time and money. The product itself stands alone.

    So I sleep soundly at night with my OTO.

    If people are on the fence - as sellers - from an ethical perspective, why not just create a short FAQ section at the bottom of the sales page, and mention it there?

    Q: Will I need to buy another product to make this work?
    A: no, but once you purchase, you will have the option to this widget. However, my methods work well without it.

    or...

    Q: Is there an upsell included in this WSO?
    A: yes there is, but it's purely optional and you won't need it to use my product.
    Signature
    Internet Marketing: 20% Internet - 80% Marketing!
    You Won't See The Light Until You Open Your Eyes.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5010599].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author JustLight
    The OTO may be essential to some people, so it has it place only if it is made to be optional. All you need do is to click the "NO Thanks" so as to get to the download page. If it is not made optional, then that means the seller is trying to force down your throat. Either you complain in the sales thread or you ask for a refund.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5010622].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
    Originally Posted by Reg View Post

    I'm finding that way too many WSOs are now crap.
    Fixed that for you.

    The real answer to your problem is "stop buying crap."

    A lot of people are basically chopping one product in half, selling the first half as a WSO, and putting the second half in as an OTO. This is because they are teh suck and should not be selling products at all.

    Incidentally, PayPal doesn't like "after the sale" OTOs any more than they like forced opt-in after purchase.
    Signature
    "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5010699].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Kal Sallam
    I don't understand why would an OTO be an issue when it only takes a few seconds to

    hit the No Thank You button.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5010744].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author WillR

    I walked into McDonalds last night and ordered a Big Mac. The young girl behind the counter asked me (very politely I might add) if I would like fries with that. I couldn't believe it! She wanted to sell me fries after I had just purchased a hamburger. The nerve of her! I was outraged! I screamed at her at the top of my voice and marched right out of the restaurant. I then got home and wrote a letter to McDonalds head office asking them to let me know I will be offered fries BEFORE I order my hamburgers in the future.

    Do you see how ridiculous you sound?
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5010887].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author SonnyYoung
      Originally Posted by WillR View Post

      I walked into McDonalds last night and ordered a Big Mac. The young girl behind the counter asked me (very politely I might add) if I would like fries with that. I couldn't believe it! She wanted to sell me fries after I had just purchased a hamburger.
      Do you see how ridiculous you sound?
      An analogy of the original post goes more like this:

      I walked into McDonalds last night and ordered a Big Mac. The young girl behind the counter asked me (very politely I might add) if I would like a BUN with that. I couldn't believe it! Isn't the bun included with the Big Mac?
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5014026].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author tpw
        Originally Posted by SonnyYoung View Post

        Your analogy is not what the original post is complaining about. It goes more like this:

        I walked into McDonalds last night and ordered a Big Mac. The young girl behind the counter asked me (very politely I might add) if I would like the a BUN with that. I couldn't believe it! Isn't the bun included with the Big Mac?

        That is understood, but although that is what the OP described, it is more likely that the complaint is a story more like this one:

        I walked into McDonalds last night and ordered a Big Mac. The young girl behind the counter ask me (very politely I might add) if I would like a soft drink with my burger, because it would help me get that burger to go down easier.


        If the OP's original description was accurate that the McD's girl was trying to sell a bun with the burger, then the WSO would have been flagged and deleted as deceptive.

        But the WSO was not flagged or deleted. So perhaps the story was told to us as an upsell for a bun, when the truth was that there was an upsell for a drink.

        Just thinking out loud.
        Signature
        Bill Platt, Oklahoma USA, PlattPublishing.com
        Publish Coloring Books for Profit (WSOTD 7-30-2015)
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5014068].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Tom B
          Banned
          BTW, we raised an extra $450 by putting an upsell on Ken Strong's benefit.
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5014110].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author WillR
        Originally Posted by SonnyYoung View Post

        An analogy of the original post goes more like this:

        I walked into McDonalds last night and ordered a Big Mac. The young girl behind the counter asked me (very politely I might add) if I would like a BUN with that. I couldn't believe it! Isn't the bun included with the Big Mac?
        Actually, no you are wrong. And I quote...

        Originally Posted by Reg View Post

        I'm aware of upselling and cross selling and know that they can have merit or demerit, depending on how and when used. I'm finding that way too many WSOs are now including OTOs to somehow complete/enhance the WSO being promoted.
        If I order a Big Mac the bun is required, it is not something that is going to complete or enhance the purchase.

        There is nothing wrong at all with OTO's that enhance the original product - this is usually what a OTO is all about. If someone is selling you a OTO that is required to make use of the original product then you report them. Simple.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5016292].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Jan Hurst
      Originally Posted by WillR View Post


      I walked into McDonalds last night and ordered a Big Mac. The young girl behind the counter asked me (very politely I might add) if I would like fries with that. I couldn't believe it! She wanted to sell me fries after I had just purchased a hamburger. The nerve of her! I was outraged! I screamed at her at the top of my voice and marched right out of the restaurant. I then got home and wrote a letter to McDonalds head office asking them to let me know I will be offered fries BEFORE I order my hamburgers in the future.

      Do you see how ridiculous you sound?
      Agree! This is priceless! I can't read this without laughing I'm going to come back to this whenever I need a smile!
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5016862].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author sal64
    Frankly, these types of threads along with WSO's are all scams threads should be treated with the disdain they deserve.
    Signature
    Internet Marketing: 20% Internet - 80% Marketing!
    You Won't See The Light Until You Open Your Eyes.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5011014].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author SeanSupplee
    Looks like a pretty even split here between yes and no. I voted yes though. To me WSO's are different from sales copy website as its a special offer to warrior members only. While I come to suspect OTO offers on sales copy WSO's to me have always been one price for everything and not tossed up with some OTO offers after i pay for the product. To me disclose that their are OTO's but you dont have to disclose the extra cost.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5011046].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Janice Sperry
    OTO I want = I click Buy
    OTO I don't want = I click No Thanks
    OTO that is required and wasn't disclosed = Request refund and report (has never happened to me)
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5011589].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author ExRat
      Hi JMichaelZ,

      I agree with the extra angle that you are adding to this conversation.

      when they go to McDonald's, already have a pretty good idea what the french fires* taste like [snip] they can make an intelligent decision as to whether to get that upsell or not.

      Not so much in the case of a WSO where you don't know if the product you are buying is going to be suited to your purposes or not
      *You mean 'fries', right?

      Hi CD,

      Originally Posted by Reg
      I'm finding that way too many WSOs are now crap.
      Fixed that for you.

      The real answer to your problem is "stop buying crap."
      For once I chose not to be the one being so blunt, but I agree. Also, I think that another problem is that often the whole structure of the WSO/OTO/upsell is being done poorly/amateurishly, as such -

      A lot of people are basically chopping one product in half, selling the first half as a WSO, and putting the second half in as an OTO.
      Signature


      Roger Davis

      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5011882].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Michael Shook
        Originally Posted by ExRat View Post

        Hi JMichaelZ,

        I agree with the extra angle that you are adding to this conversation.

        *You mean 'fries', right?
        Hmm, I don't know, Roger, the first sounds so much more exotic, especially if they were the chili cheese kind.

        It doesn't sound like the OP's intention was ever to not have OTO's or whatever word we want to call them now, just that it might be a good idea to say there is one in the copy for the WSO. That doesn't sound too bad to me.

        It could be that now, at least in this relatively small arena, that this type of upsell is commonplace, and some of the allure has worn off. I dunno, that is just speculation on my part. Based solely on the number of threads like this, I would venture that there is some significant amount of irritation with it.

        There have been some follow on products I have purchased, that I have absolutely loved, and some where it was obvious that the original product was in essence worthless without the second.

        I think the idea of marketing is o provide people with value that exceeds what they are willing to pay. Sometimes OTO's can do that, sometimes not so much. But as far as knowing what you are buying so you can make a good choice and leave with great value and a desire to do more business in the future with the same seller, it is hard to see why that would be bad.
        Signature


        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5013670].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Tom B
          Banned
          Originally Posted by JMichaelZ View Post


          It could be that now, at least in this relatively small arena, that this type of upsell is commonplace, and some of the allure has worn off. I dunno, that is just speculation on my part. Based solely on the number of threads like this, I would venture that there is some significant amount of irritation with it.
          That is part of the problem with these threads. People are basing them off their own personal, emotional, feelings and speculations instead of testing to see what is working.

          You will always, ALWays, ALWAYS, piss someone off with your process. It will never be perfect. People are emotional based and will have no problem bitching about something you do.

          You can only try to reach as many as possible and let the minority complain about life as we know it.

          Funny thing is most of those people probably don't have the freedom that brought them to internet marketing. They probably won't get that freedom either until they change their mindset.
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5013899].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author Michael Shook
            Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

            That is part of the problem with these threads. People are basing them off their own personal, emotional, feelings and speculations instead of testing to see what is working.

            You will always, ALWays, ALWAYS, piss someone off with your process. It will never be perfect. People are emotional based and will have no problem bitching about something you do.

            You can only try to reach as many as possible and let the minority complain about life as we know it.

            Funny thing is most of those people probably don't have the freedom that brought them to internet marketing. They probably won't get that freedom either until they change their mindset.
            True enough, people are emotion based. That is just how they are put together (for the most part anyway) and every purchase decision they make is going to be emotion based.

            Maybe some people think that when they read sales copy, that the write really does want to help them solve a problem, and they buy based on that emotion. And when they run into an immediate follow on sale or upsell or OTO or whatever it is, it becomes readily apparent (in their mind anyway) that the primary purpose of the seller was to get as much money as possible while giving back as little value as possible.

            Now I am guessing about what people think so I might be way off here. Something I do find interesting is that threads about topics like this are usually opened by buyers but are often responded to as if the OP was supposed to be a seller.

            Many times, people are both. And since you need both sides in a transaction, both viewpoints seem to have some value.
            Signature


            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5014588].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Mohammed Hammad2
    I don't think that warriors should include a disclosure in their sales page to tell us about OTOs.

    I think what warriors should do is LEARNING how to put OTOs the right way. I see many people offering me OTOs, some of them make me happy when I see them and others make me want to just refund the product immediately without even seeing it.

    OTOs mustn't be necessary for using the product, it has to be complimentary to the product so it can hep you more if you WANT to, but if you didn't buy it, you'll still will make what product says work!
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5012991].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author TycoonRob
    This is a pretty simple issue.

    If a seller leaves out vital info in the WSO just to sell it as an OTO, then get your refund and never buy from them again. If the OTO is valuable extra information that provides you shortcuts or extra help, and you think that it will be valuable, then buy it.

    But my issue is with the whole ONE-TIME offer. Honestly, most OTO's aren't even OTO's. They are Special Offers. Rarely do I see one that actually "disappears" so that I can't buy it after leaving the page. I may pass at first because I didn't have the money or just didn't feel like the offer would benefit me, only to find later that I want it. Usually you can then buy it. So those truly aren't one-time offers.

    You can debate the effectiveness of OTO's all you want, but in my opinion a true OTO is worthless anyway. Why not just make it a special offer? I think you would get more sales from people coming back later and saying "Hmm...I think that his offer would benefit me, so I think now I'll buy it" rather than "Oh no! If I don't buy now, I'll never see this offer again!!" and are "forced" into buying it. Buyer A feels good about his purchase (and if not he can get a refund) and WHY he bought it. Buyer B feels like he had no choice. So how do you want YOUR buyers to feel? Like they've just been tricked into buying something, or that they made the decision ON THEIR OWN to buy something that they find of value?

    I won't offer OTO's. But I will offer Special Offers that anyone can come back and buy at a later time if someone feels that it is worth it and it will benefit them. And if they don't like it want a refund? No problem and no questions asked. Tricky sales tactics and bullying/coercion to get me to buy just tells me that you're an unscrupulous seller that doesn't give two farts about me and my business and you'll never get another dime from me.

    Just my three cents.
    Signature

    Doubt everything you believe.

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5014363].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author SteveJohnson
    Maybe I'm just an unsophisticated sort, but I don't see what all the fuss about OTOs is about.

    If you don't want the offer, don't buy it. If you decide you want it later, write the seller, they'll more than likely sell it to you.

    If you find that the WSO requires the upsell or OTO to work, report the WSO and get your money back.

    Am I missing something here?

    BTW, I'm finding all the talk about requiring 'disclosure' extremely entertaining in a "I really don't believe I'm reading this" sort of way.
    Signature

    The 2nd Amendment, 1789 - The Original Homeland Security.

    Gun control means never having to say, "I missed you."

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5014583].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Mike Baker
    I'm currently trying out something completely different as a result of a lot of members complaining about OTO's lately, and that is to offer any Upsells/Downsells/Cross-sells in the sales page of the WSO.

    Why not be completely transparent and show potential buyers what you have to offer?! If they want to buy any of your upsells from the WSO sales thread, then at least they know what they will be getting laid out in the open. I don't want any of my potential customers to feel pressured to buy after just purchasing something else.
    Signature

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5014796].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Tina Golden
      If people feel pressured into buying your OTO or special offer, then you are DOING IT WRONG. When done correctly, the buyer ends up feeling like they just got a great deal and that you did them a favor.

      If any ethical marketing technique is leaving a bad taste for the majority of buyers, that's not the fault of the technique - it's bad implementation on the part of the marketer.
      Signature
      Discover how to have fabulous, engaging content with
      Fast & Easy Content Creation
      ***Especially if you don't have enough time, money, or just plain HATE writing***
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5014902].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Michael Shook
        Originally Posted by Tina Golden View Post

        If people feel pressured into buying your OTO or special offer, then you are DOING IT WRONG. When done correctly, the buyer ends up feeling like they just got a great deal and that you did them a favor.

        If any ethical marketing technique is leaving a bad taste for the majority of buyers, that's not the fault of the technique - it's bad implementation on the part of the marketer.
        I have purchased plenty of WSO's and OTO's that I was thrilled to get. Great value, great price, really nice people. And like Tina is saying, done very well, so I was more than happy to take a look at the next thing (if there was one).

        But some, I just wind up Homering myself. Hmm, that's what we need maybe an emoticon that denotes the face palm.
        Signature


        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5015063].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author ExRat
          Hi JMichaelZ,

          Originally Posted by JMichaelZ View Post

          Hmm, that's what we need maybe an emoticon that denotes the face palm.
          Signature


          Roger Davis

          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5015528].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author sal64
      This is another possibility, and it goes back to the old confirmation / order page method I used to use years ago.

      That page gave the buyer the option to upgrade there and then. It converted at over 80%.

      Then i went to an oto version and conversions plummeted.

      The problem is when you use wso pro because I don't think you can add the order button on an outside web page.

      Take a look at the WSO we put together for Ken. That gives 3 options on the page.

      Thomas... are you able to give us an idea of % of which levels people purchased?

      Sal

      PS: The original premise of an oto as I recall was to offer it after a free subscription. So I guess what we do with WSO's is actually an upsell?

      Originally Posted by Zamantra Marketing View Post

      I'm currently trying out something completely different as a result of a lot of members complaining about OTO's lately, and that is to offer any Upsells/Downsells/Cross-sells in the sales page of the WSO.

      Why not be completely transparent and show potential buyers what you have to offer?! If they want to buy any of your upsells from the WSO sales thread, then at least they know what they will be getting laid out in the open. I don't want any of my potential customers to feel pressured to buy after just purchasing something else.
      Signature
      Internet Marketing: 20% Internet - 80% Marketing!
      You Won't See The Light Until You Open Your Eyes.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5015786].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Tom B
        Banned
        Originally Posted by sal64 View Post


        Thomas... are you able to give us an idea of % of which levels people purchased?
        I am using the same "decoy" technique on an upsell for one of my products. The smaller "package" in my upsell is around $400 mark and the larger is around $750. Last time I looked, I was selling about 50/50 of each. Of course, I wasn't selling anything in the middle "package" since it was the same price as the large one.

        Knowing the wso section and how people are now conditioned to purchase lots of stuff for cheap, I figured we would be selling more quantities of the lower priced package.

        I still worked all packages to push a purchase of the Platinum.

        Surprisingly, most purchases was Platinum. 84% of overall sales at this time.

        Silver package brought in 16% of sales. A huge difference.

        The upsell converted at 17% of overall sales.

        I really expected at best a 50/50 split between Platinum and Silver.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5017193].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Ken Strong
        Originally Posted by sal64 View Post

        Thomas... are you able to give us an idea of % of which levels people purchased?
        Right now, 85% Platinum, 15% Silver, and zero Gold sales.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5017204].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Tom B
          Banned
          Originally Posted by Ken Strong View Post

          Right now, 85% Platinum, 15% Silver, and zero Gold sales.
          A little late baldy.
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5017210].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author tpw
          Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

          I am using the same "decoy" technique on an upsell for one of my products. The smaller "package" in my upsell is around $400 mark and the larger is around $750. Last time I looked, I was selling about 50/50 of each. Of course, I wasn't selling anything in the middle "package" since it was the same price as the large one.

          Knowing the wso section and how people are now conditioned to purchase lots of stuff for cheap, I figured we would be selling more quantities of the lower priced package.

          I still worked all packages to push a purchase of the Platinum.

          Surprisingly, most purchases was Platinum. 84% of overall sales at this time.

          Silver package brought in 16% of sales. A huge difference.

          The upsell converted at 17% of overall sales.

          I really expected at best a 50/50 split between Platinum and Silver.
          Originally Posted by Ken Strong View Post

          Right now, 85% Platinum, 15% Silver, and zero Gold sales.

          LOL

          I find it curious now Thomas that I believed you modeled the pricing structure on the Dan Ariely pricing structure, and I still believe that his studies influenced how you set the prices.

          Measured against his studies, the WSO-buyers are matching expectations, although not your previous expectations... :p

          The zero sales of the Gold package was predictable...

          If you had only had two options on the table, then your 50-50 expectation would have probably been generous to the Platinum Offer.

          But with the three options on the table, I fully expected to see the 15-0-85 sales numbers.

          Signature
          Bill Platt, Oklahoma USA, PlattPublishing.com
          Publish Coloring Books for Profit (WSOTD 7-30-2015)
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5017282].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author Tom B
            Banned
            Originally Posted by tpw View Post

            LOL

            I find it curious now Thomas that I believed you modeled the pricing structure on the Dan Ariely pricing structure, and I still believe that his studies influenced how you set the prices.
            Yep, I had experience using his technique on one of my higher priced upsells.

            If you had only had two options on the table, then your 50-50 expectation would have probably been generous to the Platinum Offer.
            I suspect our stats would be reversed if there were only two packages. I believe the Silver would have dominated if I had three packages priced evenly spaced out.

            But with the three options on the table, I fully expected to see the 15-0-85 sales numbers.
            I was getting a 50-0-50 response, on my high priced upsell, which is why I expected the same or close on this offer.
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5017303].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author tpw
              Originally Posted by andyweb View Post

              My last 2 trips to McDonald's I order a couple of McDoubles each time.

              Neither of the servers asked if I wanted fries with that.

              Nor did they ask if I wanted a drink. I had to ask them to sell me one.

              They just wanted to know if I wanted it "For here".

              Does McDonald's have some new marketing ploy that replaces upsells?

              I would bet that it is apathy at the cash register and from the local store manager.


              Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

              I suspect our stats would be reversed if there were only two packages. I believe the Silver would have dominated if I had three packages priced evenly spaced out.
              Definitely.


              Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

              I was getting a 50-0-50 response, on my high priced upsell, which is why I expected the same or close on this offer.
              I find this curious and worth exploring further, to be honest.

              When Ariely did his test, he was working against an offer of less than $100. And with this WSO, the options are all under $50.

              His results and the results on this WSO have gone to the 15-0-85 outcome.

              But when you did the same on your higher priced offer, the percentages rolled to 50-0-50. I wonder if that happened because the dollar signs were so much higher, or if there is something else in your structure that is pushing more people to go low...

              I'd be curious as to your thoughts...
              Signature
              Bill Platt, Oklahoma USA, PlattPublishing.com
              Publish Coloring Books for Profit (WSOTD 7-30-2015)
              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5017477].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author sal64
          Originally Posted by Ken Strong View Post

          Right now, 85% Platinum, 15% Silver, and zero Gold sales.

          Thanks Ken and Thomas. I ask purely from a marketing angle.

          Once again, this is off topic, but people should really take note of this discussion. There are quite a few 5-figure nuggets for anyone who is willing to look between the lines.

          It's like a marketing convention for testicles with all the baldies in here.

          I am actually going to do me next wso with 2 price points. Will be interesting to see what happens.

          Sal
          Signature
          Internet Marketing: 20% Internet - 80% Marketing!
          You Won't See The Light Until You Open Your Eyes.
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5017632].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author tpw
      Originally Posted by Zamantra Marketing View Post

      I'm currently trying out something completely different as a result of a lot of members complaining about OTO's lately, and that is to offer any Upsells/Downsells/Cross-sells in the sales page of the WSO.

      Why not be completely transparent and show potential buyers what you have to offer?! If they want to buy any of your upsells from the WSO sales thread, then at least they know what they will be getting laid out in the open. I don't want any of my potential customers to feel pressured to buy after just purchasing something else.

      Mike: Forgive me if I am wrong, but you are trying to brand yourself as the marketer who is always honest, above-board and transparent. Only your customers know whether in the end you are or are not.

      Forgive me for saying so, but you are succeeding with a certain amount of transparency that you probably did not intend. You are very transparent to me in that you are trying to brand yourself as "one of the only people that newbies should trust..." LOL

      Personally, I believe that may be hurting you more than helping you, but that is just my opinion and not the point of my answering your post.

      If you are testing all variables, then you should also test "not being so transparent".

      You are siding with those who are whining about OTO's, and to me, it is very transparent that the only reason you are participating in this thread is to let newbies know that you don't do the things that they seem offended by... :p

      You say that you are testing, but you also say that you are only being fully transparent in your sales copy...

      So in essence, you are only testing one side of the formula. You could have OTO/Upsells/Downsells/Cross-sells mentioned in the sales copy AND OTO/Upsells/Downsells/Cross-sells not mentioned in the sales copy.

      Since you are arguing that we should only use OTO/Upsells/Downsells/Cross-sells when we mention it in the sales copy, then you are automatically recommending that you are limiting your testing to half of the options. You are saying it should be mentioned in the copy, and therefore willing to NOT test them where they are not mentioned in the copy.

      How will you ever know what performs best, when you are only willing to look at half of the test possibilities??

      Having an OTO/Upsell/Downsell/Cross-sell available after a purchase, and unmentioned in the sales copy is no different than focusing completely on one product in your sales copy, THEN after the sale, having a page that says in essence, "if you like this product, you may also like this product too..." as demonstrated often by Amazon -- the king of testing online sales funnels.
      Signature
      Bill Platt, Oklahoma USA, PlattPublishing.com
      Publish Coloring Books for Profit (WSOTD 7-30-2015)
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5016971].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author sal64
    This is the beauty of living on the other side of the globe...

    I go tot bed and when I wake up, I see Bill and Thomas join the discussion with their wisdom and logic.

    Sure saves me a lot of typing. All the whiners should take note of their comments and learn something.

    Thank you guys.

    The fact that they are both bald may have something to do with it.
    Signature
    Internet Marketing: 20% Internet - 80% Marketing!
    You Won't See The Light Until You Open Your Eyes.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5015715].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author sal64
    oh for crying out loud...

    we are here to sell. that's what we do - simple. Get used to it. It happens.

    If you have an issue with some of the methods, then don't use them.

    There is opportunity cost involved with every sales method.

    Like... whatever. Why do we need a poll on these matters? Whatever happened to test and measure?

    People arguing semantics.

    I'm off to watch some paint dry.
    Signature
    Internet Marketing: 20% Internet - 80% Marketing!
    You Won't See The Light Until You Open Your Eyes.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5016344].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author andyweb
    My last 2 trips to McDonald's I order a couple of McDoubles each time.

    Neither of the servers asked if I wanted fries with that.

    Nor did they ask if I wanted a drink. I had to ask them to sell me one.

    They just wanted to know if I wanted it "For here".

    Does McDonald's have some new marketing ploy that replaces upsells?
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5017417].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Nathan Alexander
      Originally Posted by andyweb View Post

      My last 2 trips to McDonald's I order a couple of McDoubles each time.

      Neither of the servers asked if I wanted fries with that.

      Nor did they ask if I wanted a drink. I had to ask them to sell me one.

      They just wanted to know if I wanted it "For here".

      Does McDonald's have some new marketing ploy that replaces upsells?
      I'm not sure, but I'll say this...

      Apparently we're too fat . They know what's better for my daughter as she now get's half fries and half apples with her happy meal. (Did anyone else notice this?)

      "Would you like some exercise with that?" Thanks First Lad- I mean government.

      (Rant and side-track over.)
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5017479].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author tpw
        Originally Posted by Nathan Alexander View Post

        I'm not sure, but I'll say this...

        Apparently we're too fat . They know what's better for my daughter as she now get's half fries and half apples with her happy meal. (Did anyone else notice this?)

        "Would you like some exercise with that?" Thanks First Lad- I mean government.

        (Rant and side-track over.)

        My understanding is that this move was dictated from on-high from those who were once elected by the people. :rolleyes:
        Signature
        Bill Platt, Oklahoma USA, PlattPublishing.com
        Publish Coloring Books for Profit (WSOTD 7-30-2015)
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5017488].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author dagaul101
    There will always be problems with upsells, as many new buyers will be thinking they didn't get the full product
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5018069].message }}

Trending Topics