WSOs & OTOs - a recommendation

by 86 replies
108
I've purchased literally hundreds of WSOs the last few years and have only requested a refund probably not even a handful of times (less than 5). That number was just added to because of a OTO (I'm disliking OTOs more all the time).

After purchasing the WSO I was taken to the Warrior Plus page where I clicked the button to access my purchase. After going through some hoops I finally got to the WSO but the first page I saw was for a OTO for the WSO I just purchased.

It wasn't until I went back and reread the WSO copy and a number of comments that it became clear as to how what the OTO was and how it related to the WSO.

I'm aware of upselling and cross selling and know that they can have merit or demerit, depending on how and when used. I'm finding that way too many WSOs are now including OTOs to somehow complete/enhance the WSO being promoted. More and more I'm being left with the similar negative impression I get when purchasing a car or airfare ticket (what's on the sticker price is not what's there when the deal is fully disclosed). From the increasing number of comments I've been reading of late many others are sensing something similar.

For the above reason I'm disliking OTOs more all the time and would like to suggest the following remedy........

All WSOs that include a OTO make full disclosure of the OTO and the part it plays to the WSO being promoted in the sales copy.[/B]
#main internet marketing discussion forum #otos #recommendation #wsos
  • I think they should disclose this in the sales page.

    I am thinking about how to incorporate a OTO too and personally as the seller I want people to know about it so that this type of thread doesn't happen.
    • [1] reply
    • i think oto's have there place.

      but i absoluetly hate when the oto is needed to complete the wso you just bought!
  • Yes, I think the seller should be upfront about OTO's. It could ultimately affect whether or not I wanted to purchase the product.
  • I don't believe it should be mandatory to reveal the OTO in the sales copy. If you have any questions or concerns prior to purchase, ask in the sales thread. This type of information might not only be valuable for you, but other prospective buyers as well...

    The whole OTO thing has garnered a lot of hate recently... I find a good way around this (without pissing too many Warriors off) is to have a vertical OTO and not one that's directly attached to the information being shared in the frontend offer. For instance, think if a person buys 'this', they may also be interested in 'this' as well.

    You can still make some money off the OTO without making customers feel the frontend purchase was lacking in some way without the OTO. This is a different marketplace from the 'outside' world...

    Just my 2 cents...
    • [1] reply
    • I've noticed that quite a few WSO sellers (sometimes intentionally) avoid questions regarding the OTO like it's a secret. They will respond to the member's other questions, or the ones that were asked before and after the reply with the OTO question, but won't touch on the OTO itself.

      Luckily, that is usually remedied by a buyer replying and mentioning what the OTO is.
  • What if the OTO is a product that is similar to the WSO, but has no bearing whatsoever on the effectiveness of the WSO?

    Generally speaking, adding more rules is not a good idea. It may seem like a good idea, but there are ALWAYS unintended consequences.

    However, if an OTO is absolutely required to make a WSO work, then I may ask for a refund. A WSO (or any product) should do what the sales letter claims, and at the price it claims. If you all of a sudden need something else, then the seller was relying on subterfuge.

    Still, requiring such disclosure won't work the way you think it will. I guarantee it.

    Also, I don't think it's as big of a problem as you say it is. If you are finding that a lot of the WSOs you are buying have bad OTOs, then maybe you need to ask yourself why you are buying so many WSOs.

    So...here's my suggestion: don't buy from that seller again. Also, if you ever do an OTO, be sure to explain it in minute detail on the WSO page; you know "full disclosure".

    All the best,
    Michael
  • I'm puzzled why OTOs are such a big issue in a marketing forum... we're talking about literally a few extra seconds to click the "No, thanks" button, right? What if the OTO turned out to be something you wanted, and you made extra money as a result?

    Personally, I don't think being annoyed at an OTO is a good reason to ask for a refund. Certainly, as a customer you have the right to post in the WSO thread and complain about it there if you want.
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  • I don't think it is necessary. I have no problems with OTO's if they are really optional. I mean, I just say no and go and download the product I purchased. If I noticed that the product does not deliver its promise and I need the OTO to make it work then I just ask for a refund.
  • I completely agree that no Warrior should ever have to buy a OTO in order to complete the steps required in the original WSO.

    However, I don't really see anything wrong with the seller offering something that makes the initial process easier (eg. a website template, WP plugin, etc) for an extra fee. It's just like most companies offer you a cake to go with your coffee. You don't need to buy it, and you can enjoy your coffee by itself, but you might enjoy it more if you had a delicious slice of cheesecake to go with it.
    • [2] replies
    • In some WSO's I've had OTO's that are vertical. In other words they've already got there WSO and they have the opportunity to take advantage of the OTO if they want to without any disruption. The reason I do it this way, and it's much more time consuming at my end to say the least, is because being forced into looking at a OTO before you can get your WSO might piss some people off. When I purchase, I really don't care because it usually only takes a few seconds to hit the no thanks...It can get very annoying when you have an up sale and say no, only to be redirected to a down sale, etc.
    • I think there's some confusion in this thread. I've never heard of a WSO where you were required to buy an OTO before you could download the product you just paid for. Obviously, if someone did that, someone would immediately report the WSO and it would be closed right away.

      We're also not talking about forced opt-ins for WSOs, which is a different issue that's also generated an endless number of threads already. I think we're talking about optional One-Time Offers, or upsells, in other words.
      • [1] reply
  • Banned

    Maybe you should just stop buying stuff and start selling it. Funny, I am always happy when someone starts complaining about something I am doing. That normally means it is working.

    It is normally people that don't do much besides buying a lot of stuff that complain about it.

    How about you do your own thing and let others take care of how they run their businesses? Sound fair, eh?
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    • current or potential customer tells you what he thinks about the industry hence gives you some free market research and you are telling him to **** off? get a grip mate!
      • [2] replies
  • I would like to know if there is going to be an upsell and an idea of the cost. I purchased a $12 product some time back and found the upsell was more than $100 and quite necessary if I wanted to sell the sites I made with this product. Quite a surprise.

    The product wouldn't work and the seller couldn't be contacted as he was trying to sell his business, including his Worrier Forum ID. PayPal gave me my money back fairly quickly as when I filed the dispute it immediately changed it to claim and I got my money refunded within a week.

    I am a bit hesitant to buy upsells as if the product is worth while, then I shouldn't need to buy anything else to make it work. But I understand the reasons for it. But if I needed to buy the upsell, maybe I shouldn't have bought the it in the first place. That is why I would like to know.
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    • Hi,

      With respect to all, this looks like another thread with multiple differing issues all being discussed at once and as always a further confusing combination of buyer and seller perspectives.

      As far as I can see, the main problem Reg has had is that the WSO in question is quite confusing regarding what the buyer gets and for what price.

      Sometimes I believe that these type of things are deliberately misleading, but I don't think that this one necessarily is and the WSO in question also has [INSERT ADD TO CART BUTTON HERE] errors and links to videos which don't work and appear to have been inadvertently left in the WSO template (which leads me to conclude that it's just a bit of a clumsy presentation.)

      Part of the confusion appears to come from the 'test drive' wording in the guarantee which I think is simply a confusing way of saying 'buy it and refund it if you don't like it.'

      I don't know how many of you analyse WSOs and their stats, but in my opinion the main reasons for many of the current OTOs are because a lot of sellers are going with high or 100% commission on the front-end for two specific reasons - a) due to their ultimate goal of running the WSO (list building) b) to try and be selected for WSO of the day/gain affiliates in general.

      Therefore, some people are trying to claw a little income from the process via the upsell/OTO, others are using it to help achieve b) above by dangling an even greater carrot.

      With respect Reg -

      Bearing in mind that I think the real problem here is a badly presented and confusing WSO (not the OTO itself) and for other reasons too, I often wonder why buyers of WSOs present remedies here for sellers, particularly when most of the buyers I see doing this aren't really understanding the processes at work and the main concerns of the sellers - which is most often not based around the concerns of a single buyer who happens to refund.

      No offence meant to you Reg or anyone else, I'm just trying to help and maybe educate by sharing my opinion and viewpoint based on my own observations and experiences.
      • [ 1 ] Thanks
      • [3] replies
  • Just my 2 cents....I feel as long as the OTO doesn't have a direct impact on the WSO then no. But if you need the OTO in order to implement the WSO then yes. That's actually having the best of both worlds.


    -eugene
  • I still think its funny that a marketing forum gets so PISSED when it comes to upsells.

    I've purchased my fair share of WSOs, and NONE of them required the upsell. Sure it can make things go faster, but it wasn't required.

    Getting mad at the upsell is like getting mad at a strong call to action or a good headline. It's a well-known marketing principle that upsells work, so why not use them?
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    • (None of that stuff works anyway.)
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  • I dont have a problem with OTO as long as they are not the missing piece of the wso product puzzle so to speak. I have purchased a fair amount of wso's and some have disappointed me with their "squeeze as much money out of the buyer as possible" OTO that really only put me off buying from that seller again.

    There are some great wso out there you just have to find them
  • If you buy a WSO, or even a Clickbank product for that matter, and an OTO appears and it states the OTO product is needed or required in order for the main product to function... don't complain about it here. Contact PayPal or CB and they will shut the merchant down in a heartbeat--neither allow that kind of thing.

    If, however, the OTO is an adjunct supplementing the base product, but not required for the implementation of the original product as it was advertised--I consider that simply a case of good marketing.

    This is an Internet marketing forum. To criticize people here who use accepted techniques for elevating sales is ludicrous. In fact, if the base product was something I bought because I thought it would help me, I would like to learn about additional products by the vendor that could help me even more.

    A mod just the other day reminded people complaining about pricing on WSOs that this forum is not a dollar store. If you expect people to run value-laden WSOs and only charge you a few bucks--and then get upset because the try to recover their costs on the back end--you don't understand what making money online is all about.

    Requiring disclosure of OTOs on the sales pages for WSOs is ridiculous. The vendor paid to run their WSO. It's a free market economic model. If you want to disclose the fact you have an OTO built into your offer--go for it. That's your choice. But don't make that choice for others.

    As long as the base product delivers the goods in terms of how it was described, that's all I care about. If you worry about any more than that, you've got too much time on your hands.

    Anyone can start their own forum related to IM. It's a free country. Allow people to run paid ads like you see here. Put a $3 maximum price on products. No upsells, OTOs, joint ventures, affiliates, or download page promotions. Get back with me on how that works out for you.

    Had a burr up my ass when reading through this thread. Think I got it. Yeah, feels better now. Relief!!!

    --Mike
    • [ 9 ] Thanks
  • As stated already... why do people on a marketing forum get pissed at being marketed to?

    When will you realize that you are NOT your customer.

    On an other note...

    My OTO is for additional content that will save the customer time and money. The product itself stands alone.

    So I sleep soundly at night with my OTO.

    If people are on the fence - as sellers - from an ethical perspective, why not just create a short FAQ section at the bottom of the sales page, and mention it there?

    Q: Will I need to buy another product to make this work?
    A: no, but once you purchase, you will have the option to this widget. However, my methods work well without it.

    or...

    Q: Is there an upsell included in this WSO?
    A: yes there is, but it's purely optional and you won't need it to use my product.
  • The OTO may be essential to some people, so it has it place only if it is made to be optional. All you need do is to click the "NO Thanks" so as to get to the download page. If it is not made optional, then that means the seller is trying to force down your throat. Either you complain in the sales thread or you ask for a refund.
  • Fixed that for you.

    The real answer to your problem is "stop buying crap."

    A lot of people are basically chopping one product in half, selling the first half as a WSO, and putting the second half in as an OTO. This is because they are teh suck and should not be selling products at all.

    Incidentally, PayPal doesn't like "after the sale" OTOs any more than they like forced opt-in after purchase.
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  • I don't understand why would an OTO be an issue when it only takes a few seconds to

    hit the No Thank You button.

  • I walked into McDonalds last night and ordered a Big Mac. The young girl behind the counter asked me (very politely I might add) if I would like fries with that. I couldn't believe it! She wanted to sell me fries after I had just purchased a hamburger. The nerve of her! I was outraged! I screamed at her at the top of my voice and marched right out of the restaurant. I then got home and wrote a letter to McDonalds head office asking them to let me know I will be offered fries BEFORE I order my hamburgers in the future.

    Do you see how ridiculous you sound?
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    • [2] replies
    • An analogy of the original post goes more like this:

      I walked into McDonalds last night and ordered a Big Mac. The young girl behind the counter asked me (very politely I might add) if I would like a BUN with that. I couldn't believe it! Isn't the bun included with the Big Mac?
      • [2] replies
    • Agree! This is priceless! I can't read this without laughing I'm going to come back to this whenever I need a smile!
  • Frankly, these types of threads along with WSO's are all scams threads should be treated with the disdain they deserve.
  • Looks like a pretty even split here between yes and no. I voted yes though. To me WSO's are different from sales copy website as its a special offer to warrior members only. While I come to suspect OTO offers on sales copy WSO's to me have always been one price for everything and not tossed up with some OTO offers after i pay for the product. To me disclose that their are OTO's but you dont have to disclose the extra cost.
  • OTO I want = I click Buy
    OTO I don't want = I click No Thanks
    OTO that is required and wasn't disclosed = Request refund and report (has never happened to me)
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    • Hi JMichaelZ,

      I agree with the extra angle that you are adding to this conversation.

      *You mean 'fries', right?

      Hi CD,

      For once I chose not to be the one being so blunt, but I agree. Also, I think that another problem is that often the whole structure of the WSO/OTO/upsell is being done poorly/amateurishly, as such -

      • [ 1 ] Thanks
      • [1] reply
  • I don't think that warriors should include a disclosure in their sales page to tell us about OTOs.

    I think what warriors should do is LEARNING how to put OTOs the right way. I see many people offering me OTOs, some of them make me happy when I see them and others make me want to just refund the product immediately without even seeing it.

    OTOs mustn't be necessary for using the product, it has to be complimentary to the product so it can hep you more if you WANT to, but if you didn't buy it, you'll still will make what product says work!
    • [1] reply
    • Many of the "OTOs" are not actually OTOs, let's rename it to something else.

      I've YET to see some real OTO I could grab with all of my hands or fingers.

      Marian
  • This is a pretty simple issue.

    If a seller leaves out vital info in the WSO just to sell it as an OTO, then get your refund and never buy from them again. If the OTO is valuable extra information that provides you shortcuts or extra help, and you think that it will be valuable, then buy it.

    But my issue is with the whole ONE-TIME offer. Honestly, most OTO's aren't even OTO's. They are Special Offers. Rarely do I see one that actually "disappears" so that I can't buy it after leaving the page. I may pass at first because I didn't have the money or just didn't feel like the offer would benefit me, only to find later that I want it. Usually you can then buy it. So those truly aren't one-time offers.

    You can debate the effectiveness of OTO's all you want, but in my opinion a true OTO is worthless anyway. Why not just make it a special offer? I think you would get more sales from people coming back later and saying "Hmm...I think that his offer would benefit me, so I think now I'll buy it" rather than "Oh no! If I don't buy now, I'll never see this offer again!!" and are "forced" into buying it. Buyer A feels good about his purchase (and if not he can get a refund) and WHY he bought it. Buyer B feels like he had no choice. So how do you want YOUR buyers to feel? Like they've just been tricked into buying something, or that they made the decision ON THEIR OWN to buy something that they find of value?

    I won't offer OTO's. But I will offer Special Offers that anyone can come back and buy at a later time if someone feels that it is worth it and it will benefit them. And if they don't like it want a refund? No problem and no questions asked. Tricky sales tactics and bullying/coercion to get me to buy just tells me that you're an unscrupulous seller that doesn't give two farts about me and my business and you'll never get another dime from me.

    Just my three cents.
  • Maybe I'm just an unsophisticated sort, but I don't see what all the fuss about OTOs is about.

    If you don't want the offer, don't buy it. If you decide you want it later, write the seller, they'll more than likely sell it to you.

    If you find that the WSO requires the upsell or OTO to work, report the WSO and get your money back.

    Am I missing something here?

    BTW, I'm finding all the talk about requiring 'disclosure' extremely entertaining in a "I really don't believe I'm reading this" sort of way.
  • I'm currently trying out something completely different as a result of a lot of members complaining about OTO's lately, and that is to offer any Upsells/Downsells/Cross-sells in the sales page of the WSO.

    Why not be completely transparent and show potential buyers what you have to offer?! If they want to buy any of your upsells from the WSO sales thread, then at least they know what they will be getting laid out in the open. I don't want any of my potential customers to feel pressured to buy after just purchasing something else.
    • [3] replies
    • If people feel pressured into buying your OTO or special offer, then you are DOING IT WRONG. When done correctly, the buyer ends up feeling like they just got a great deal and that you did them a favor.

      If any ethical marketing technique is leaving a bad taste for the majority of buyers, that's not the fault of the technique - it's bad implementation on the part of the marketer.
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      • [1] reply
    • This is another possibility, and it goes back to the old confirmation / order page method I used to use years ago.

      That page gave the buyer the option to upgrade there and then. It converted at over 80%.

      Then i went to an oto version and conversions plummeted.

      The problem is when you use wso pro because I don't think you can add the order button on an outside web page.

      Take a look at the WSO we put together for Ken. That gives 3 options on the page.

      Thomas... are you able to give us an idea of % of which levels people purchased?

      Sal

      PS: The original premise of an oto as I recall was to offer it after a free subscription. So I guess what we do with WSO's is actually an upsell?

      • [2] replies

    • Mike: Forgive me if I am wrong, but you are trying to brand yourself as the marketer who is always honest, above-board and transparent. Only your customers know whether in the end you are or are not.

      Forgive me for saying so, but you are succeeding with a certain amount of transparency that you probably did not intend. You are very transparent to me in that you are trying to brand yourself as "one of the only people that newbies should trust..." LOL

      Personally, I believe that may be hurting you more than helping you, but that is just my opinion and not the point of my answering your post.

      If you are testing all variables, then you should also test "not being so transparent".

      You are siding with those who are whining about OTO's, and to me, it is very transparent that the only reason you are participating in this thread is to let newbies know that you don't do the things that they seem offended by... :p

      You say that you are testing, but you also say that you are only being fully transparent in your sales copy...

      So in essence, you are only testing one side of the formula. You could have OTO/Upsells/Downsells/Cross-sells mentioned in the sales copy AND OTO/Upsells/Downsells/Cross-sells not mentioned in the sales copy.

      Since you are arguing that we should only use OTO/Upsells/Downsells/Cross-sells when we mention it in the sales copy, then you are automatically recommending that you are limiting your testing to half of the options. You are saying it should be mentioned in the copy, and therefore willing to NOT test them where they are not mentioned in the copy.

      How will you ever know what performs best, when you are only willing to look at half of the test possibilities??

      Having an OTO/Upsell/Downsell/Cross-sell available after a purchase, and unmentioned in the sales copy is no different than focusing completely on one product in your sales copy, THEN after the sale, having a page that says in essence, "if you like this product, you may also like this product too..." as demonstrated often by Amazon -- the king of testing online sales funnels.
  • This is the beauty of living on the other side of the globe...

    I go tot bed and when I wake up, I see Bill and Thomas join the discussion with their wisdom and logic.

    Sure saves me a lot of typing. All the whiners should take note of their comments and learn something.

    Thank you guys.

    The fact that they are both bald may have something to do with it.
  • oh for crying out loud...

    we are here to sell. that's what we do - simple. Get used to it. It happens.

    If you have an issue with some of the methods, then don't use them.

    There is opportunity cost involved with every sales method.

    Like... whatever. Why do we need a poll on these matters? Whatever happened to test and measure?

    People arguing semantics.

    I'm off to watch some paint dry.
    • [1] reply
    • Would you like a paint brush with that?
  • My last 2 trips to McDonald's I order a couple of McDoubles each time.

    Neither of the servers asked if I wanted fries with that.

    Nor did they ask if I wanted a drink. I had to ask them to sell me one.

    They just wanted to know if I wanted it "For here".

    Does McDonald's have some new marketing ploy that replaces upsells?
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    • I'm not sure, but I'll say this...

      Apparently we're too fat . They know what's better for my daughter as she now get's half fries and half apples with her happy meal. (Did anyone else notice this?)

      "Would you like some exercise with that?" Thanks First Lad- I mean government.

      (Rant and side-track over.)
      • [1] reply
  • There will always be problems with upsells, as many new buyers will be thinking they didn't get the full product
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  • 108

    WSOs & OTOs - a recommendation

    I've purchased literally hundreds of WSOs the last few years and have only requested a refund probably not even a handful of times (less than 5). That number was just added to because of a OTO (I'm disliking OTOs more all the time). After purchasing the WSO I was taken to the Warrior Plus page where I clicked the button to access my purchase. After going through some hoops I finally got to the WSO but the first page I saw was for a OTO for the WSO I just purchased.