Clickbank Changed Their Rules Yet AGAIN?!

by WillR
63 replies
Ok, so I found myself on the optin page of a product being launched on Clickbank in the next couple of days. I am NOT going to name the actual product.

The piece of information that interested me the most was a little message in the middle of the squeeze page telling me the optin offer was closing on the 15th November. Hmm, today is the 15th of November, isn't that a little too much of a coincidence?

So I went down and changed the date on my computer to the 17th of November and then refreshed the page. Was I surprised by what I saw? No, not really. All of sudden this offer had been extended an extra 2 days just by me refreshing the page. Weird, right?

Now maybe I am wrong but I remember some changes being made to the Clickbank user agreement not very long ago. Specifically this part:




So my question is this? Do those new Clickbank rules ONLY apply to the actual sales page that bears the Clickbank order button or should a vendor who is deliberately deceiving people in their pre-launch also be removed from the marketplace? As far as I am concerned these tactics tell us a lot about the people behind the product. Is it better to catch them BEFORE they start taking people's money?

Thoughts...?
#changed #clickbank #rules
  • Profile picture of the author Gaz Cooper
    Well you certainly caught them with their pants down

    I have still seem some sites that are not following the new rules but i have also heard of a Big CB marketer being banned from there for changing the pitch video after it was approved.
    So I guess they are trying and need people to report it when they find something that is an obvious breach against the new rules.

    I'm sure its a tough job to police it.

    Kickin it on Amazon

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  • Profile picture of the author Daniel Wilson
    Clickbank needs to keep high quality because 70% of those pages are crap. Internet public is changing and I believe that those kind of salespages have no future.

    But then again people love to believe in the "make $2000 in 5 minutes" and "eat as much as you want and lose fat".
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    • Profile picture of the author edwood
      Originally Posted by Daniel Wilson View Post

      Internet public is changing and I believe that those kind of salespages have no future.
      If you'd said this to me two years ago, I would have had my doubts. Now, however, I can't but agree. While good sales copy will always convert, people are really fed up with the type of hyped-up nonsense that's being peddled in recent years.

      I'm actually in the process of transforming one of my main squeeze pages to totally get away from the 'classic' look that has become the norm. With the new design I'm working on, I want don't want people to see the 'squeeze' -- I just want them to feel like signing up because it feels right.

      Time will tell if that works or not.

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    • Profile picture of the author AndreStoelinga
      Originally Posted by Daniel Wilson View Post

      Clickbank needs to keep high quality because 70% of those pages are crap....
      I don't believe that CB will penalize the salespages of products that still bring in tons of money for them (even it's only the fees they charge). It's more likely that new products will be checked and the low grav products probably...

      Andre
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      • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
        Banned
        Originally Posted by econtinue View Post

        I don't believe that CB will penalize the salespages of products that still bring in tons of money for them
        Please excuse the observation that, with all the current FTC interest and activity in this area, and ClickBank's undoubted awareness that their entire future is potentially in jeopardy over issues like this, I find it really hard to believe that people can seriously imagine that.
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  • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
    Banned
    Originally Posted by WillR View Post

    Do those new Clickbank rules ONLY apply to the actual sales page that bears the Clickbank order button or should a vendor who is deliberately deceiving people in their pre-launch also be removed from the marketplace?
    They should be removed from the internet. Period. They're crooks and we all suffer because of them.

    The more people who report these to ClickBank and to the FTC, the better for all of us.

    Originally Posted by WillR View Post

    As far as I am concerned these tactics tell us a lot about the people behind the product.
    Indeed, they do.

    And the affiliates who still choose to promote these products also tell us a lot about themselves.
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    • Profile picture of the author write27
      Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

      They should be removed from the internet. Period. They're crooks and we all suffer because of them.

      The more people who report these to ClickBank and to the FTC, the better for all of us.



      Indeed, they do.

      And the affiliates who still choose to promote these products also tell us a lot about themselves.
      I hate when people de-fraud. I bought a service from somebody (I won't name them), and they stated the price was going to double after a certain date. Then, a week later, the same service was listed at an even lower price than what I purchased it.

      My view is that people who conduct their business with integrity usually win out in the end. Those who use Black Hat techniques and fraudulent advertising usually end up tripping themselves up in the end.

      If I may paraphrase from the film Scarface, "The people that last in this business are the ones that fly straight."
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  • Profile picture of the author JCorp
    I see that a lot. I think CB moderators and admins are either getting lazy or don't have enough man power to catch all those rule breakers...
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    • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
      Banned
      Originally Posted by JCorp View Post

      I think CB moderators and admins are either getting lazy or don't have enough man power to catch all those rule breakers...
      Agreed - but it's not easy for them.

      Vendors' sales pages are hosted on their own sites, not at ClickBank, so ClickBank are in a difficult position regarding the enforcement of their regulations to prevent fraud and scams. Vendors can change their sales page wording after ClickBank approval, and some do.

      Which, again, is why the more people who report these things to ClickBank (and to the FTC), the better. It helps to keep our industry cleaner and more honest, and in the long run we can all benefit from that.
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      • Profile picture of the author Joseph Robinson
        Banned
        Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

        Agreed - but it's not easy for them.

        Vendors' sales pages are hosted on their own sites, not at ClickBank, so ClickBank are in a difficult position regarding the enforcement of their regulations to prevent fraud and scams. Vendors can change their sales page wording after ClickBank approval, and some do.

        Which, again, is why the more people who report these things to ClickBank (and to the FTC), the better. It helps to keep our industry cleaner and more honest, and in the long run we can all benefit from that.
        Pretty much illustrates the point I wanted to make. ClickBank can't do it all. As I think someone mentioned there are well over 30,000 products with more added every day (If I didn't really see that and the numbers are B.S. I apologize). Self policing, especially by those who work online and follow the rules, is the only way to make a dent. Now, I personally believe that this war on scammers and hack jobs is like the War on Drugs. Great idea, and performed for all the right reasons; but very difficult to actually execute and damn near impossible to finish. Doesn't mean that we shouldn't fight though. Any good that can be performed should be performed. That's all the rambling I have on the subject lol.
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        • Profile picture of the author Harvey Segal
          Originally Posted by JasonParker View Post

          All I see is another income stream for ClickBank with 16,000 new customers out of the gate.
          Out of the gate as in 'running away' because
          vendors want the option to continually
          test, change and refine their sites

          .
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          • Profile picture of the author JasonParker
            Originally Posted by Harvey Segal View Post

            Out of the gate as in 'running away' because
            vendors want the option to continually
            test, change and refine their sites

            .
            Vendors having the ability to change their sites after they're approved by ClickBank is the problem with all these vendors not complying with ClickBank policies.

            If ClickBank controlled it, then vendors would still be able to update their sites, but would have to be manually approved by ClickBank when they submit new updated versions.
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            • Profile picture of the author Harvey Segal
              Originally Posted by JasonParker View Post

              If ClickBank controlled it, then vendors would still be able to update their sites, but would have to be manually approved by ClickBank when they submit new updated versions.
              And that's why we'd run away.



              .
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              • Profile picture of the author JasonParker
                Originally Posted by Harvey Segal View Post

                And that's why we'd run away.



                .
                Because you don't want your updates approved by ClickBank? I don't get it...
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                • Profile picture of the author Harvey Segal
                  Originally Posted by JasonParker View Post

                  Because you don't want your updates approved by ClickBank? I don't get it...
                  They'll get approved - no problem.

                  But I don't want to wait days/weeks every time
                  I want to make a change.

                  .
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                  • Profile picture of the author JasonParker
                    Originally Posted by Harvey Segal View Post

                    They'll get approved - no problem.

                    But I don't want to wait days/weeks every time
                    I want to make a change.

                    .
                    I can see that being a problem...

                    However, there may be a solution for that as well.

                    Maybe they can guarantee faster approval.

                    Or if you're talking about split testing or something, then that could also be built in... to the point where your variations get approved ahead of time.

                    I'm not saying any of my ideas are perfect.

                    All I'm saying is this...

                    Here's ClickBank. Horrible reputation, in the crosshairs of the FTC, what do you do?

                    I'm sure they're much smarter than me and can come up with some simple solutions that prevent them from blowing themselves up.
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                    • Profile picture of the author garyv
                      Originally Posted by JasonParker View Post


                      Here's ClickBank. Horrible reputation, in the crosshairs of the FTC, what do you do?

                      When you're as big as clickbank, all you can do is show that you're making a valiant effort to police what's going on, and taking action whenever you find someone violating rules or laws.

                      Clickbank itself does not have a horrible reputation. The IM niche in general has the bad reputation. There are a lot of scumbags out here selling their re-hashed snake-oil marketing programs. A lot of them choose clickbank to do it, because it's easy for them to pull the bait & switch tactic on the sales page approval process.

                      Clickbank could probably catch much of this if they had an automatic review process for any product that has a large spike in sales or gravity. That's how paypal keeps the IM niche at bay. A spike in sales causes them to freeze an account unless - or until - they have proof that you're making legitimate sales.
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                      • Profile picture of the author Alan Petersen
                        Originally Posted by garyv View Post

                        When you're as big as clickbank, all you can do is show that you're making a valiant effort to police what's going on, and taking action whenever you find someone violating rules or laws.

                        Clickbank itself does not have a horrible reputation. The IM niche in general has the bad reputation. There are a lot of scumbags out here selling their re-hashed snake-oil marketing programs. A lot of them choose clickbank to do it, because it's easy for them to pull the bait & switch tactic on the sales page approval process.

                        Clickbank could probably catch much of this if they had an automatic review process for any product that has a large spike in sales or gravity. That's how paypal keeps the IM niche at bay. A spike in sales causes them to freeze an account unless - or until - they have proof that you're making legitimate sales.
                        It's not just the IM niche. It's direct response marketing in general.

                        Check out the health, fitness, forex, gaming, just about every niche in that market place is packed with snake oil salesmen, not just IM.
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                        • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
                          Banned
                          Originally Posted by Alan Petersen View Post

                          Check out the health, fitness, forex, gaming, just about every niche in that market place is packed with snake oil salesmen, not just IM.
                          I do hear you, Alan ... but forex and gambling are part of "make money online", and "health" typically has its own legal/regulatory/ethical problems regarding "claims". These are the difficult areas, undeniably - but there are 1,000 other niches, too, with millions of perfectly good customers waiting ...

                          I agree with the examples you've mentioned, but not at all that "it's direct response marketing in general".

                          I was absolutely astonished to see yesterday the comment (above, somewhere, or maybe in a similar thread?) that "ClickBank is 95% MMO/IM"!! Hard to believe that the person who said that is looking at "the same ClickBank" as me.

                          There must be another one in some alternative, parellel universe!
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                          • Profile picture of the author Alan Petersen
                            Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

                            I do hear you, Alan ... but forex and gambling are part of "make money online", and "health" typically has its own legal/regulatory/ethical problems regarding "claims". These are the difficult areas, undeniably - but there are 1,000 other niches, too, with millions of perfectly good customers waiting ...

                            I agree with the examples you've mentioned, but not at all that "it's direct response marketing in general".

                            I was absolutely astonished to see yesterday the comment (above, somewhere, or maybe in a similar thread?) that "ClickBank is 95% MMO/IM"!! Hard to believe that the person who said that is looking at "the same ClickBank" as me.

                            There must be another one in some alternative, parellel universe!
                            True that. I shouldn't have said "in general" since it painted the entire industry with that brush.

                            I remembered those "electronic ab belts" that the FTC slammed almost 10 years ago:

                            FTC Charges Three Top-selling Electronic Abdominal Exercise Belts with Making False Claims

                            Yet, they still make it back to market. I guess the money to be be made is too great for some which is why it's hard to stop.

                            In that parallel universe consumer's would exercise the power they have to stop this stuff by not buying these things.
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                          • Profile picture of the author Dan Bainbridge
                            Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

                            I was absolutely astonished to see yesterday the comment (above, somewhere, or maybe in a similar thread?) that "ClickBank is 95% MMO/IM"!! Hard to believe that the person who said that is looking at "the same ClickBank" as me.
                            There must be another one in some alternative, parellel universe!
                            That was me Above

                            I think we are in the same universe, and yeh, probably 95% is an over-estimate, but if not then maybe it would be hard to argue it being less than 80%.... but it is definitely the case that IM / mmo type products are 80% / 90% / 95% of Clickbank's REVENUE, even if not the same % of their product portfolio. It is these products that have the $1m launches, and while weight loss and forex also do some huge numbers these are the exceptions..
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                        • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                          Russ,

                          Thanks for the look into CB's vetting process.
                          To give you just one example of many, I LITERALLY had to replace the words "amazingly easy" with the words "shockingly simple". I'm not kidding. "Amazingly easy" was not OK, but "shockingly simple" was. I don't understand it any more than you do, but I was happy to comply.
                          That's actually one of the more easily explainable copy tweaks. It's also fairly common.

                          Example: Chopping down a large oak tree is simple. It is not, however, easy.


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                • Profile picture of the author Daniel Evans
                  That's been added in after approval.

                  It would have been dissaproved otherwise during manual review.
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  • Profile picture of the author mattpaul2000
    I am no big fan of Clickbank, I hate hearing these things. There is some total junk on there. Only thing i tend to use it for nowadays is market research. Warrior Forum should bring out is on version of clickbank. Forum does have a affiliate section though which looks great but I have not used it yet.
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    • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
      Banned
      Originally Posted by mattpaul2000 View Post

      There is some total junk on there.
      There is everywhere, Matt.

      ClickBank is a retailer.

      All you need to do, to avoid the worst of those issues, is stay away from the "make money online" and "internet marketing advice" niches, which are scammy everywhere. There are about 998 other niches.

      Originally Posted by mattpaul2000 View Post

      Forum does have a affiliate section though
      It really doesn't.

      You're perhaps thinking of WSO-Pro which (in spite of its misleading name) actually has no connection with the forum at all: it's just a private business.

      The forum sells advertising space: that's all. It isn't itself involved in the offers advertised here. It isn't a retailer at all.
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  • Profile picture of the author anwar001
    I think it is difficult for clickbank to implement the rules as product owners can change their salespage content anytime. So, clickbank staff cannot continue checking the sales page repeatedly. Am I right?
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  • Profile picture of the author monetization
    If you have ever submitted a product to clickbank for approval you would easily see how people can get away with breaking their terms of service. Clickbank is only looking at the salespage and the product itself. However, they are not checking back regularly if you make updates to your site (most smart marketers are always testing, so they are optimizing their site to increase conversions, etc.)

    So unless there are a high level of complaints they will most likely continue to use the things that increase their conversions, even if they may not necessary comply with clickbanks new guidelines.
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Can we please call a spade a spade here.

      Clickbank will say what it needs to say in order to get the FTC off their backs.

      In practice, their policing is lax to non existent.

      If you think I'm wrong, take a look at all the crap in the Clickbank marketplace.

      Clickbank policy is a lot of hot air with very little substance.
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      • Profile picture of the author WillR
        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

        Can we please call a spade a spade here.

        Clickbank will say what it needs to say in order to get the FTC off their backs.

        In practice, their policing is lax to non existent.

        If you think I'm wrong, take a look at all the crap in the Clickbank marketplace.

        Clickbank policy is a lot of hot air with very little substance.
        I agree with this and it's what I've always believed. Clickbank are not out to be the 'good guys', they are just trying to comply with the law so they are not run out of business in the next couple of years.

        The products they are now trying to discourage are the very same products that helped turn Clickbank into the company it is today.
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        • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
          Banned
          Originally Posted by WillR View Post

          Clickbank are not out to be the 'good guys', they are just trying to comply with the law so they are not run out of business in the next couple of years.
          Until a few months ago, I'd wholeheartedly have agreed with both of you about this.

          But a few little things, collectively, have made me slightly more open-minded about it, now, and willing to give them the benefit of the doubt, at least for a while. On three or four separate issues, over the last few months, they've shown some "willingness to listen", and especially some signs of a very badly-needed change of attitude and behavior regarding customer service.

          I do think it's just possible that they may gradually be becoming the "good guys".

          I'm reserving judgment.
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          • Profile picture of the author WillR
            Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

            Until a few months ago, I'd wholeheartedly have agreed with both of you about this.

            But a few little things, collectively, have made me slightly more open-minded about it, now, and willing to give them the benefit of the doubt, at least for a while. On three or four separate issues, over the last few months, they've shown some "willingness to listen", and especially some signs of a very badly-needed change of attitude and behavior regarding customer service.

            I do think it's just possible that they may gradually be becoming the "good guys".

            I'm reserving judgment.
            They found Osama Bin Laden so anything IS possible, right?!

            I guess whether their intentions are genuine or not, I would still much rather see them making the changes they are than leave things how they have always been.

            I gotta give them that much.
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  • Profile picture of the author Dan Bainbridge
    This is just one of the reasons why we moved our business off Clickbank.

    We're not in IM niche anyway, and CB is 95% IM / mmo stuff, but anyway, I'm sure CB are getting some massive heat off the FTC, and I'm sure the FTC would be much happier if they could shut them down completely.. and with them blatently ignoring the FTC like this and not enforcing their own rules just gives them more ammunition... we jumped ship just so we don't wake up one day and find we've been dragged down and now have no payment processor because of all this cr@p (amongst other reasons too).
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    PSSST..... Want to hear a secret?




    Clickbank probably can't provide 3rd party charging! So they play like THEY are the vendor. And that means that THEY are subject to laws and taxes. The fake scarcity law has been around in the US for longer than probably ANYONE on this forum has been alive! Probably longer than almost everyone living. It is simply that NOW a LOT of people are doing it on the internet, and it has obviously drawn the FTCs attention.

    The FTC was started to stop companies and people from misrepresenting products and conditions to get people to buy products and services. It is as simple as THAT! And false scarcity WAS one of the first codified examples.

    HERE is how the FTC says it! "When the FTC was created in 1914, its purpose was to prevent unfair methods of competition in commerce as part of the battle to “bust the trusts.” Over the years, Congress passed additional laws giving the agency greater authority to police anticompetitive practices. In 1938, Congress passed a broad prohibition against “unfair and deceptive acts or practices.”".

    So the idea of the SPECIFIC area I am talking about was codified in 1938 even though the basic principles were in 1914. My parents were only little kids in 1938! My GRAND PARENTS may have been born after 1914! I believe all my grandparents are dead, and my mother died recently. Though I think healthcare was a BIG problem in her case, it was age related.

    So YEP, those laws have been around a LONG time! Of course, almost EVERY store breaks them. Some stores change model numbers on the SAME machines so they can skirt by the "sale's can only happen every 6 months or more" rule! And several companies create special "models", which may only have a different model number, so they can have special price match ads! And some places don't even TRY to appear legal.

    steve
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  • Profile picture of the author garyv
    You have to think logically about this. Clickbank has been around for over a decade, and in that time they've had a staff working full time approving products on a daily basis. It would take them years just to glance at all of the products they've approved - and that's only if they stop approving new products to do it.

    They can make up for this however by allowing the public police it (just like youtube and google does). And they can cover themselves by having a very easy refund policy.

    They do have the easiest refund policy on the planet. So if you get taken by a vendor, then your problem isn't Clickbank - your problem is probably one that requires medication, or a tighter helmet.
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    • Profile picture of the author Damielle
      This is the kind of crap that gives Internet Marketers a bad name.
      It is tough for Clickbank to police all these products though, as they are not hosted on Clickbank and the owners can change them any time.

      As marketers we have to help with the policing, in a similar way that its done here on the forum
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  • Profile picture of the author Fraggler
    In my opinion, based on the wording provided in Clickbank's False Scarcity definition, that page falls under the "We Will Allow" paragraph. It doesn't say the offer is only available today.

    Not saying I agree with it though!
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    • Profile picture of the author ChadOath
      Originally Posted by Fraggler View Post

      In my opinion, based on the wording provided in Clickbank's False Scarcity definition, that page falls under the "We Will Allow" paragraph. It doesn't say the offer is only available today.

      Not saying I agree with it though!
      You figure "this offer closes at 11:59..." could be interpreted as the offer ending at 11:59, which it clearly doesn't. BUT, I wonder if people can get by on a technicality with the wording. What if the offer actually ends at 11:59, but then re-opens at 12:01?
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  • Profile picture of the author Fraggler
    I'm just going by what I read in their definition. If I close a door, I can open it again - even straight after it shuts.

    They are not saying the offer is only available until 00:00 or that the offer will be closed for good.
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  • Profile picture of the author RussRuffino
    Everyone, please chill.

    About Clickbank Enforcing Their Rules:

    First of all, Clickbank has VERY strict rules for all their sales pages, and trust me, they are enforcing them big-time:
    • I had to verify that every single piece of income proof I placed in ANY part of my product or sales funnel was 100% true, and I had to PROVE IT.
    • I also had to prove that the major parts of my story were true (i.e. that my kid brother DID really go to Scotland, that his site really did get traffic USING THE METHODS in my system - and not from some other source - and that the traffic and income to his site are STILL flowing today). Yes, they checked ALL of this.
    • I couldn't use ANY blind copy in my sales video, and I had to tell people EXACTLY what my product did, basically how it worked, and what it's about (driving paid USA, EUR, and AUS traffic for just pennies per visitor). Yes, it DELIVERS, just like everything I've ever released on this forum.
    YES, they went through the WHOLE product. Yes, they went through ALL the upsells. Yes, the approval process took WEEKS of back and forth while CB went through EVERY single word of my copy with a fine-toothed comb.

    To give you just one example of many, I LITERALLY had to replace the words "amazingly easy" with the words "shockingly simple". I'm not kidding. "Amazingly easy" was not OK, but "shockingly simple" was. I don't understand it any more than you do, but I was happy to comply.

    About the Opt-In Form:

    The dynamic date on the Squeeze Page was there because this was a REAL pre-launch. People who opted in on any given day would be able to access content that WOULD NOT be available at the end of the week - the product launched today, so that content is coming down tomorrow.

    If you opted-in on say, Monday, you would have been taken to a different page than if you had opted-in on Wednesday. So the scarcity for the opt-in was/is real. The e-mail sequence people get will be different starting tomorrow (the day after the launch). I was going to change it tonight, but now I'm writing this reply and I'm exhausted on the day of my launch, so I'm doing it tomorrow. But the dynamic date is gone from the page, since the pre-launch is now over.

    Trust me: Clickbank is NOT screwing around when it comes to enforcing their rules, and I am NOT SCREWING AROUND when it comes to following them.

    I understand you guys are looking out for everyone, which I appreciate as an honest marketer, and WillR, I appreciate you pointing this out. But as someone who's bought quite a few of my products and enjoyed them as far as I can tell, and someone whom I've had some really nice discussions with on here, please do me a solid and HIT ME UP first and ask what's going on before you post this. Maybe there's more than meets the eye.

    Copy Nazi, same goes for you, man...you've bought and liked a lot of my stuff (you have good reviews in my thread) so please don't slam me and my sales videos. Being abrasive and in your face is your stock in trade (Copy Nazi?) but that's cool - you have your presentation, and I have mine. I respect you as a fellow marketer, so please show me that same respect.

    That's all.
    Russ
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    • Profile picture of the author Nicoshere
      Russ, it must have been a long (and hopefully successful day for you).
      You have just earned my first post...which is fitting b/c I didn't even know about the Warrior Forum until I "met" you last week and bought USF.

      Much respect for your post here, especially given that it's product launch day. I've only ever launched offline products, and I know how time-consuming and exhausting it is. Your post, then, shows how much you respect (with a healthy dose of fear) the Warrior Forum, checking in for reviews before heading to bed.

      I was just on your opt-in, and decided to check Warrior Forum for any reviews of the product before buying. Can honestly say that had you not responded to this thread, I'd have a different takeaway from the other comments.
      Already sent you a separate email via USF support asking a question about ETT. Hope to hear from you soon, and looking forward to your continued great content.
      Cheers,
      Nico
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    • Profile picture of the author Nicoshere
      WF masters, i have now searched for half an hour (with a little sidetracking) on how to "thank" someone as was done on multiple instances in this thread (by alexa and Will, among others).
      HELP? What to do?
      Thanks,
      Nico
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    • Profile picture of the author The Copy Nazi
      Banned
      Originally Posted by RussRuffino View Post

      Copy Nazi, same goes for you, man...you've bought and liked a lot of my stuff (you have good reviews in my thread) so please don't slam me and my sales videos. Being abrasive and in your face is your stock in trade (Copy Nazi?) but that's cool - you have your presentation, and I have mine. I respect you as a fellow marketer, so please show me that same respect.

      That's all.
      Russ
      I blame that WillR. Just kidding. I'll take the blame for this one. Whack! - see...i just gave myself an uppercut.

      Glad to see your reply. I went back and read my comment on the WSO I bought from you some time ago. This one -
      Russ, bravo! - that's one of the best WSOs I've bought. Beautifully written. Lots of solid advice here not just for WSOs but for internet marketing as well. You were obviously wasted as a bartender. You remind me of the "Kitchen Confidential" guy - Anthony Bourdain.

      I'm so impressed by both your writing and your ideas. I'd JV with you in a heartbeat.

      p.s. look me up if you come to gay Paree. Get your people to call my people. We'll do lunch.

      cheers,

      Malkie
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  • Profile picture of the author zamzung
    What I see as a problem here is the fact (at least as far as I know) that Clickbank checks sites during approval... if everything is OK, website will get approved... but after that it seems that owner can do to the site whatever he wants... like adding those little traps which are forbidden according to Clickbank rules... I believe it's hard for Clickbank to check all their approved sites after the first approval process...
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    • Profile picture of the author Harvey Segal
      Originally Posted by anwar001 View Post

      I think it is difficult for clickbank to implement the rules as product owners can change their salespage content anytime. So, clickbank staff cannot continue checking the sales page repeatedly. Am I right?
      You are right but what makes it even more difficult
      (impossible ?) for ClickBank is that they don't even
      know what the sales pages are for additional
      products in an account.

      (When you add a product the only site information
      you provide is the thank you page)


      .
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  • Profile picture of the author WillR
    Russ,

    I actually asked to have the Copy Nazi's post above edited so it didn't name your product because it was never my intention to point any fingers at one particular person... was just something I came across and wanted to discuss in relation to how well Clickbank are actually enforcing their new rules.

    Anyway, good of you to poke your head in and give your side of the story. I guess 99% of the times I come across those sort of tactics they are being used for the wrong purpose so naturally I assumed the same in this case. I didn't actually know it was your product until I opted in and saw the video.

    Hope the launch has gone well for you. I think your post has turned me RIGHT off launching any Clickbank products in the near future... although on the other side of the coin I was just reading the latest interview of the 'Truth About Abs' guy who is selling something ridiculous like $20 million + worth each year. Crazy sh*t.
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  • Profile picture of the author JasonParker
    Solution...

    ClickBank could easily make you upload your files and sales page onto their server and "lock" them from you changing them.

    I haven't seen the sales page in question, so I have no comment on that.

    I'm just saying in general... ClickBank could actually make sure all sales pages are in compliance I think.
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    • Profile picture of the author Harvey Segal
      Just going back to this point

      Originally Posted by JasonParker View Post

      Solution...
      ClickBank could easily make you upload your files and sales page onto their server and "lock" them from you changing them.
      Perish the thought that we'd ever need to 'freeze'
      our sales pages but (and technical people might be
      able to answer) would this be possible without
      having to resort to sites being hosted with
      ClickBank. Namely by maintaining a checksum type
      figure in the vendor account.

      .
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  • Profile picture of the author xxxJamesxxx
    Solution...

    ClickBank could easily make you upload your files and sales page onto their server and "lock" them from you changing them.

    I haven't seen the sales page in question, so I have no comment on that.

    I'm just saying in general... ClickBank could actually make sure all sales pages are in compliance I think.
    That would cost Clickbank a bomb in hosting fees!

    How many products are in the Clickbank marketplace? Last I heard it was 16,000 products listed.

    Also, how many hits do these massive Clickbank launches get? tens if not hundreds of thousands of hits in the first week of launch.

    ...It just ain't gonna happen.

    James Scholes
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    • Profile picture of the author JasonParker
      Originally Posted by xxxJamesxxx View Post

      That would cost Clickbank a bomb in hosting fees!

      How many products are in the Clickbank marketplace? Last I heard it was 16,000 products listed.

      Also, how many hits do these massive Clickbank launches get? tens if not hundreds of thousands of hits in the first week of launch.

      ...It just ain't gonna happen.

      James Scholes
      Actually, hosting is a pretty lucrative business

      All I see is another income stream for ClickBank with 16,000 new customers out of the gate.
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  • Profile picture of the author John Romaine
    Report em dude.

    Do you really want to invest time and effort towards a product that could be pulled at any minute because of this?
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  • Profile picture of the author John Romaine
    Simple - Easily understood or done; presenting no difficulty
    Easy - Achieved without great effort; presenting few difficulties

    meh, looks the same to me :p
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  • Profile picture of the author gvmrktr
    Thanks for sharing.
    ClickBank should kick the vendor out or at the least, suspend the vendor for a specific period of time{allowing the vendor ample time to review the ToS/Vendor agreement, etc.}

    Moreover, in a time of ubre-recession, which we are in, you'd think in the online world, money-grabbing would be minimized. There is a serious threat of a sales tax on every single transaction that occurs on the Internet. The move by governments to impose sales taxes and continuing to further gain control of cyberspace should be in the minds of all vendors, e-tailers, eCommerce operators(i.e. everyone doing and attempting to do business online)
    Let's be fair and just and make a move to self regulate ourselves for the best welfare of all on and off of the Internet.
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    • Profile picture of the author Clark Rockefeller
      Banned
      [DELETED]
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      • Profile picture of the author gvmrktr
        Oh Clark,
        We love due diligence. Way to go on making people aware as they contemplate 'going online'.
        We only spoke to affiliate and internet marketing as it is all we eat, think of, dream of, study for, prepare for, live, work and focus on.
        Perhaps other industries that have an online element are rife with mis-leading and 'sucker-come-hither' actions however we strongly believe that affiliate marketers, networks et al. will can lead the way to keeping the Net 'cleaner' by banding together and regulating ourselves.
        Long live affiliates, the marketplace and the self-respect of us all.
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  • Profile picture of the author Tyler Colby
    i know that clickbank is huge, and there are a lot of affiliates on it - but why do people continue to put up with this type of behavior when there are clear competitors?
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    • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Tyler Colby View Post

      why do people continue to put up with this type of behavior when there are clear competitors?
      Welcome to the forum, Tyler.

      That's for a big mixture of reasons ...

      (i) ClickBank are giving out some signs of "probably cleaning up their act" at the moment;

      (ii) Out of their 15,000+ active products, these specific problems in "scammy niches" are actually on the small and unrepresentative side (one doesn't get that impression here, of course, but that's because this is an internet marketing forum and the conversations are - understandably and reasonably - all skewed in that direction);

      (iii) Because most of the "clear competitors" don't have the automated affiliate-payment service that ClickBank offers, and serious, professional affiliates typically don't want to be dependent on the vendors for payment: it's a potential cashflow problem we don't need and like to avoid (this one's a really big, common and significant reason);

      (iv) Some people don't really know of the alternatives, and/or are doing well with ClickBank, and find their 15,000+ products quite enough to sort through without being anxious to look elsewhere;

      (v) ClickBank are very long-established and have a huge turnover, which (albeit more to some people than to others) lends them quite an air of credibility;

      (vi) Many people have been using ClickBank entirely happily and successfully, for many years, without actually being aware of these problems at all;

      (vii) ... there are other reasons, too, but various combinations of those are a start, anyway ...

      Originally Posted by Dan Bainbridge View Post

      That was me Above

      I think we are in the same universe
      We are, indeed! Sorry, Dan - I was lazy and didn't remember whose comment it was ...

      Originally Posted by Dan Bainbridge View Post

      and yeh, probably 95% is an over-estimate
      I'll say!

      Originally Posted by Dan Bainbridge View Post

      maybe it would be hard to argue it being less than 80%
      For me, it would be very, very easy indeed to argue with that. But ultimately neither of us can prove our views. However, I will ask someone I know who works there, next time I email him, and see if there's a reply on this matter: I'll tell him that we're talking in terms of turnover rather than sales numbers and that a "ball park figure" is all I'm asking for.

      Originally Posted by Dan Bainbridge View Post

      it is definitely the case that IM / mmo type products are 80% / 90% / 95% of Clickbank's REVENUE
      Call me a skepchick: I may be mistaken, of course, but I don't believe a word of this; sorry.
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      • Profile picture of the author Dan Bainbridge
        Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

        Call me a skepchick: I may be mistaken, but I don't believe a word of this; sorry.
        Oh Alexa, will we ever agree on anything?

        Maybe my view is skewed by the amount of JVs and launches I see going on in IM, but I can definitely tell you that self improvement is a pretty wide area, but on CB there is very limited choice of large, quality products. Even a "big" area like weight loss, you have around 4,5,6, BIG people, and then nothing much else of quality... I just know that if I was in IM I would have 10x as many bigger JV partners to work with than I do.
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        • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
          Banned
          Originally Posted by Dan Bainbridge View Post

          Oh Alexa, will we ever agree on anything?
          LOL ... well, at least we've always got on very well in spite of all our differences of opinion! :p

          Originally Posted by Dan Bainbridge View Post

          Maybe my view is skewed by the amount of JVs and launches I see going on in IM
          Seriously, I suspect everyone's is.

          When it's discussed here, it's discussed in terms of internet marketing! :p

          This forum is kind of my online spiritual home (what does this say about me?!?! Don't answer that! ) but it isn't "the real world" ... not even "ClickBank's real world"!

          Originally Posted by Dan Bainbridge View Post

          I can definitely tell you that self improvement is a pretty wide area
          For sure.

          And the health markets are huge.

          So are many hobbies, interests, educational items and so on.

          Originally Posted by Dan Bainbridge View Post

          Even a "big" area like weight loss, you have around 4,5,6, BIG people, and then nothing much else of quality.
          I hadn't even thought about weight-loss and fitness.

          But thank you for adducing all this evidence in support of "my side" of the discussion.

          Originally Posted by Dan Bainbridge View Post

          I just know that if I was in IM I would have 10x as many bigger JV partners to work with than I do.
          Sure, of course. And there are reasons for that. And they're very real and very significant ones. And they say a lot about many aspects of the "industry". But not so much as one might think about the "apportioning" of ClickBank's revenue between different markets/niches! :p
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          • Profile picture of the author Dan Bainbridge
            Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

            But not so much as one might think about the "apportioning" of ClickBank's revenue between different markets/niches! :p
            I dunno, I'm still not sure, I've met the Clickbank management 3x now, and been to 2 "closed parties" for only Apex type members... like the "top 100+" people, and I swear, the amount of them who were just IM based was ridiculous... I struggled to meet anyone I could actually work / JV with despite having over 600 products in all areas of health, weightloss, self improvement, confiddence, motivation etc... Interesting to swap ideas, but didn't really find many/any(?) JVs..

            Even YOU sell IM, or promote it don't you? IM Income Simplified?

            Last week Norb advertised his Dubturbo product on the CB account homepage dashboard area - and he was the only person EVER to advertise a non IM product there

            Probably the main reason I left is because of their focus towards IM products.. if it really was a mixed bag of successful weight loss, health, dieting, spiritual, meditation, etc etc products then I would LOVE it, I'd LOVE to be part of a big community like that... but after nearly 2 YEARS on Clickbank I've rarely been introduced to any other big CB "alternative" merchants, and haven't been introd to ANY at all by my CB account manager.

            .. so despite heavily trying to find these people.. it is my day job to network, reach out to people, make new partnerships, find new partners.. but I haven't really found them on Clickbank.. so that's my experience and why I say it is mostly IM - through the experience and struggle, and complete failure to find anyone else
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            • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
              Banned
              Originally Posted by Dan Bainbridge View Post

              the "top 100+" people, and I swear, the amount of them who were just IM based was ridiculous...
              I can imagine.

              But even if the "top 100 people" were all IM-niche-based, there can still be 50,000 others in other niches whose accumulated turnover (which is what we're talking about) far outweighs them, you know?

              Originally Posted by Dan Bainbridge View Post

              Even YOU sell IM, or promote it don't you? IM Income Simplified?
              Barely!

              I have 8 "main niches" with big websites, big lists, frequent articles, and so on. Not one of which has anything to do with IM at all. And then I have one additional product, with no real niche site for it, no list for it, and no promotion for it at all apart from (intermittently) a sig-file link ... because the author's a friend, and so on. It's well under 0.5% of my turnover, Dan. Nice try, though. :p

              Originally Posted by Dan Bainbridge View Post

              Last week Norb advertised his Dubturbo product on the CB account homepage dashboard area - and he was the only person EVER to advertise a non IM product there
              And you imagine this somehow adduces evidence in favour of your contention?

              I've seen that. I wish I knew something about that niche and/or product. It would be so cool to promote one of Norb's products. But I don't even understand what it is.

              Originally Posted by Dan Bainbridge View Post

              I haven't really found them on Clickbank.. so that's my experience and why I say it is mostly IM - through the experience and struggle, and complete failure to find anyone else
              I hear you. Well, I'm not sure how much "community" there is, really? I'll try to get a ball park figure, for this - out of interest. I assure you I'll be quick and happy to admit it openly, if I'm wrong about this.
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              • Profile picture of the author Dan Bainbridge
                Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

                But even if the "top 100 people" were all IM-niche-based, there can still be 50,000 others in other niches whose accumulated turnover (which is what we're talking about) far outweighs them, you know?
                Lol, ok, well, I really dispute this... this is the 80-20 rule. 20% of merchants will make 80% of Clickbank's revenue, and it would make sense that it would be the 20% in that room...

                This 80-20 rule happens all over, even further skewed than 80-20 too, I have probably 400 affiliates, but only 40 of them make any sales at all really, and only 10 of those make any significant numbers - i.e. I'd honestly actually say 95% of all of MY affiliate revenue.

                But anyway, I'm really glad that only 0.5% of your income is IM based, but what I don't understand then is why this forum is your spiritual home, or why you love Clickbank so much

                btw, Norbs product is Dubturbo
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                • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
                  Banned
                  Originally Posted by Dan Bainbridge View Post

                  20% of merchants will make 80% of Clickbank's revenue, and it would make sense that it would be the 20% in that room...
                  This point, I must admit, seems to me to be much harder to argue with than anything above. Yes, interesting ...

                  Originally Posted by Dan Bainbridge View Post

                  I have probably 400 affiliates, but only 40 of them make any sales at all really, and only 10 of those make any significant numbers - i.e. I'd honestly actually say 95% of all of MY affiliate revenue.
                  Yes, I don't doubt it.

                  I'm always commenting in threads here that 10% of the affiliates typically make 90%+ of the sales, and I strongly suspect that almost nobody ever believes me (I'm used to that, though - people who don't understand what "duplicate content" means don't believe me about article marketing, either!), so I'm quite pleased to know that statistic, really.

                  Originally Posted by Dan Bainbridge View Post

                  But anyway, I'm really glad that only 0.5% of your income is IM based, but what I don't understand then is why this forum is your spiritual home, or why you love Clickbank so much
                  Well, even when I'm selling non-IM products (i.e. 99.5% of the time) I'm still an internet marketer myself, aren't I? I'm here to talk to colleagues, not to customers! And I love ClickBank so much because of the money they pay into my bank account every month, and without my ever needing to be dependent on a vendor for payment.
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            • Profile picture of the author garyv
              Originally Posted by Dan Bainbridge View Post

              I dunno, I'm still not sure, I've met the Clickbank management 3x now, and been to 2 "closed parties" for only Apex type members... like the "top 100+" people, and I swear, the amount of them who were just IM based was ridiculous...

              Let me say as an Apex member, that those type of parties usually do only attract the IM niche clients. Many of those in the IM niche rely on each others' email lists to promote product launches. So it's imperative for them to network.

              In the other niches, some of the biggest vendors fly right under the radar. They could care less about networking, because they'd rather not invite the competition.

              There are some vendors out there that don't even put their products into the clickbank marketplace. They sell through clickbank, but choose to opt out of a marketplace listing. There have been several times that I've happened upon a clickbank product while doing niche research, only to find that the product is no where in the marketplace, and they have no affiliate page at all on their website.

              But I've been an apex member in several niches w/ several accounts, and I never go to their meetings or parties.
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