Is This Unethical WSO Practice Even Legal?

124 replies
Do not read the following if you're offended by rants:

I just had to get this off my chest, because I am ticked off with the owner of a worthless WSO I bought, with a worthless guarantee. I rarely refund anything, and this is the first time I've ever tried to refund a WSO, so I don't know if this happens a lot or not. In my opinion it's blatantly unethical.

It seems obvious to me how wrong it is, but maybe it's the norm and I just never realized (that still doesn't make it okay though). I'd love to hear some other Warriors' opinions and insights about what follows.

The WSO had a very clear guarantee in the thread-within 30 days, if not satisfied for any reason, you will get a complete refund-no ambiguity. When I went through the owners' help desk, which is where he told me to go, a couple days after trying both his email, and a pm, I did get the OTO refunded, which is good, but not the main product.

I hadn't asked for the OTO refund alone, in fact, the core product was way worse than the OTO, and I wanted that refunded too. So I contacted the owner again, and he said he emailed the affiliate "yet again", to get him to refund me ("yet again" means a second time).

He told me that "it's out of my hands", and he couldn't do anything else, since 100% of the front end went to affiliates. So it was up to me to track down the affiliate and squeeze the money out of him. He told me I'd be within my rights to make a Paypal dispute.

I replied that since he was the person who owned the product, and whose sales page promised satisfaction or a refund, he was therefore responsible to make good on that promise, even if the affiliate he approved would not. I said maybe I'm old fashioned, but I expect product owners to personally-if necessary-make good on sales page promises, especially guarantees.

He replied a final time, and told me he'd gone "above and BEYOND" (his caps), for me, because he "requested it twice".

He said "Buddy you bought from [man's name]. Take it up with him. You HAVE options. You can file a dispute with Paypal..."

Then went on: "I'm not paying an out of pocket expense for something I didn't get paid. You ARE old fashioned. I'm also closing this ticket, and removing you from my email list."

(the "out of pocket" bit was in response to me suggesting that if the affiliate went AWOL, the product owner should refund out of pocket if needed, rather than leave the customer holding the bag).

He hadn't mentioned the affiliate's name until the last email, and so before I got that, I looked it up in my Paypal account, and contacted the affiliate, demanding to know why my refund request was being stonewalled.

Later I had to apologize for accusing the affiliate of stonewalling, since it is the first SHE had heard of it. In other words when the owner had gotten my request for a refund, he forwarded it to the wrong affiliate-a man. But he thinks he went "above and BEYOND" for me, because he'd made the same mistake twice.

He doesn't even know his mistake, because when I tried to open a new ticket, his help desk would not allow it-I think I've been banned.

I hope it's clear now why I'm mad. The fact that he contacted the wrong person, and in his arrogance, doesn't even know that, just adds an extra level of absurdity, but what I'm really mad about is his utter refusal to take any responsibility for enforcing the guarantee, or standing behind it if enforcement fails.

I have no trouble understanding why someone wouldn't want to go out of pocket on a refund, after letting the affiliate take 100% of the front end sales, but that is one of the risks you take when you quickly approve an army of affiliates you don't bother checking out, to go out and promote your stuff.

Is it really the customer who should take the hit when the product owner puts a bad affiliate on his team?- (if that had even been the problem-like he thought, rather than his own screw-up)

A guarantee is someone's promise, and the person who made that promise isn't the affiliate, so when push comes to shove, a product owner should step up, if the affiliate won't. If they never had any intention of doing anything beyond forwarding the request, the guarantee was a stone cold lie, and hence, I suspect, illegal as well as immoral.
#legal #practice #unethical #wso
  • Profile picture of the author Kay King
    In my opionion the SELLER is always responsible for refunds is there is a refund guarantee.

    Forwarding a request to an affiliate is not acceptable and clearly this seller doesn't even know how to track his own sales. I think it's the seller's responsibility to clear up any discrepancies in commissions - it's not the buyer's problem.

    But - that said - the correct way to complain is to contact the help desk and let your complaint be passed to the mods. A seller who does not honor an "easy fast refund" guarantee easy and fast - will have to answer for that with a mod.

    kay
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    • Profile picture of the author Matt B
      I agree with the both of you.

      After all it was the product you were unsatisfied with, right? That's the owners fault, not the affiliate. Just because he decides to pass 100% commissions, that also means he passes refund responsibilities on to affiliates as well. f-that.
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    • Profile picture of the author Greg guitar
      Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

      In my opionion the SELLER is always responsible for refunds is there is a refund guarantee.

      Forwarding a request to an affiliate is not acceptable and clearly this seller doesn't even know how to track his own sales. I think it's the seller's responsibility to clear up any discrepancies in commissions - it's not the buyer's problem.

      But - that said - the correct way to complain is to contact the help desk and let your complaint be passed to the mods. A seller who does not honor an "easy fast refund" guarantee easy and fast - will have to answer for that with a mod.

      kay
      Thanks for your reply Kay,

      I appreciate your point of view.

      I'm not sure if the wording included fast or easy, but it certainly did guarantee either satisfaction or a refund. That should be binding enough.

      If the owner had been apologetic rather than arrogant, maybe I'd have been receptive to going through the Paypal dispute process (I may still have to anyway-I'm giving the affiliate a few days to make good first), but as it is, I'm in no mood to give him any slack.

      I'm blowing off steam here, but the WSO is closed, so I'm not sure if it makes sense to burden the mods now-they can't shut it down if it's already closed. I know you aren't supposed to complain about specific marketers, but I think I'm kosher as long as I give no identifying data, and I'm careful on that score.

      Thanks again-I usually find your thoughts valuable, and this is no exception.
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  • Profile picture of the author Gaz Cooper
    If they were using the Warrior Plus system, once you put in the refund request the Affiliate has 24 or 48 hours to refund (cant remember) but if they do not refund they can get banned from Warrior plus.

    I have never had an affiliate not process a refund and I always refund promptly if I get a request from a product owner because that is the right thing to do.

    If the Affiliate refused to refund within the allowed timeline, I would refund it myself and make a complaint to Warrior Plus and have them Ban them.

    I mean is it worth all the hassle to deal with refunders for a few dollars, I have had the odd irate person who cant follow simple instructions want to refund and I cant wait to refund them and block them from every buying from me again.

    Just not worth the hassle.

    Kickin it on Amazon

    Gaz Cooper
    Amz Training Academy

    PS if its the one Im thinking, there will be a lot of banned Amazon affiliate accounts soon if they use that on their sites.
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  • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
    Hey Greg,

    Yes I think that this sort of thing is more prevalent now because of the massive change in the way that WSOs work using the WSOPro system and affiliates.

    It seems to be the usual thing for people who think they'll struggle to sell their own product to rely on affiliates and need to give 100% commission on the front end in order to get it promoted. They add the guarantee "because it increases conversions" with no real wish or intent to give refunds, and when things get a little complicated because an affiliate is involved they don't want to accept responsibility because they already gave away the product revenue in order to get you as a customer.

    You'd think the honerable thing to do would be simple and just to stand behind their guarantee, but I've seen several people complain when they use the guarantee to get sales and then blame the customer when they get asked for it.

    Andy
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  • Profile picture of the author Jeff Usher
    Yep .. this is where the Warrior Plus affiliate system falls a little short really. The affiliate gets 100% of the sale, and they then have to go back to the WarriorPlus site in order to issue any refund requests. So if that affiliate is on vacation for 2 weeks then you're not going to get a quick response.

    The owner may be monitoring the thread as it's their own product, but the affiliate may not be as it's just part of another promotion they may be running.

    That said, the owner of the product should issue a refund if there is no response within a reasonable time from one of the affiliates, and then claim it back from them. After all ...they chose to use the WarriorPlus system and were aware of the process when setting up the affiliate account.

    Jeff
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    • Profile picture of the author Robert H Cwik
      Originally Posted by Jeff Usher View Post

      That said, the owner of the product should issue a refund if there is no response within a reasonable time from one of the affiliates, and then claim it back from them. After all ...they chose to use the WarriorPlus system and were aware of the process when setting up the affiliate account.

      Jeff
      This would be the most reasonable and acceptable solution. After all people do check their affiliate stats (at least I do ) and they can see that there was a refund request. Apart from that, there is a button in your paypal account reading "issue refund" or something like that and it is active for more than just 48 hours, so if the affiliate is honest, they can issue the refund on WSO author's demand.

      However, I suspect something else here. The affiliate simply spent the money and had no way to issue the refund. In this case, too, however, the owner of the product should issue the refund and hold the affiliate liable.
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  • Profile picture of the author wfhblueprints
    Hey Greg!

    That sucks.....and no it is not legal.....you as the seller need to be the one honouring the guarantee......he/she obviously couldnt be bothered.

    I love the concept and idea of a WSO and Warriorplus......but I am wary of the additional hassles and policing that it might bring when dealing with issues of affiliates etc...

    Chris
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      I understand the WarriorProf feature - but I don't care.

      If you - as a seller - offer a refund....YOU are responsible for it. The WF should hold sellers to their WSO promises and the risk of losing money to an affiliate should be the seller's problems.
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  • Profile picture of the author John Thornhill
    If only Warrior Plus let you have the option to take the payments yourself and pay affiliates manually.

    Maybe one day...

    John
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  • Profile picture of the author Coby
    I know that I have paid refunds out of my own pocket on one or more occasion...

    In fact as few times I've even went as far as to not even bother to contact the affiliate about the refund in the first place...

    I know a few times a customer has actually got a double refund - one from me and one from the affiliate... So I stopped paying them out of pocket super quick just to keep anyone from catching on that they could try to 'game the system'...

    But with that being said - I think it's the vendor's responsibility to at least try to appease the customer. But I also don't know exactly how the situation went down. If a customer is rude to me then I don't go "out of my way" to help them. But when a customer does the 'correct' thing and asks for a 'correct' refund and doesn't call me a scum bag or something then I have no problem paying it out of my pocket...

    I like to think businesses are built and destroyed one person at a time...

    But - for the vendor's side - it can be rough dealing with affiliates or sometimes affiliates are just outta town or something and so they don't see the refund right away and the customer doesn't always understand that...

    I often advise my customers to give the affiliate 3 to 5 business days to make to process it and if they hadn't received it within a week to let me know.
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  • Profile picture of the author dragonblogger
    I haven't used this forum but from anything I have done in sales and as a customer, I would think the seller should be responsible for the refund, affiliates are just resellers. I actually like that Clickbank and Amazon Affiliate handle all the returns and I don't have to process or deal with them myself (though don't like seeing the - balance when returns take me past my earnings for the month)
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  • Profile picture of the author Greg guitar
    I appreciate everyone's replies. I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one who is "old fashioned" enough to think that when someone makes a guarantee they should be willing to stand behind it instead of hiding behind their proxies.

    Andy-I know what you mean about the marketers who like guarantees for making sales, but become bitter if they ever have to honor them. I've seen quite a few people whining about "serial refunders", which of course exist, yet the people with the best products have the fewest refunds, aren't slowed down in the least by the supposed scourge of refunders, never complain, and usually have the best guarantees.

    Jay Abraham is quite a forceful advocate of "risk reversal", and he seems to do all right in spite of all the bad customers low level marketers like to whine about. If their whining had any substance, people who give the best guarantees would be going broke, but it seems they always excel instead.

    The first time I bought from Jason Fladlien, I did so because he wrote fantastic copy, created exciting products, and gave outrageous guarantees. He probably had a few scammers take advantage, and buy just to exercise the guarantee, but so what-he gained hundreds of raving fans for every low life that took advantage, and I bet he never complained once about "bad customers". Because he was getting rich from the vast majority that were good ones.
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  • Profile picture of the author Bill_Z
    Yep I think alot of guys just approve all affiliate requests. Definitely NOT a good move to do so. If I PM you and ask about your background and how you plan to promote and you don't take out 2 mins to reply, then I won't approve you. Plain and simple.
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    • Profile picture of the author Jill Carpenter
      Ultimately the product owner is responsible - especially if there is a guarantee.

      Why?

      Because they have full control right now over who becomes an affiliate. They can force affiliates to conform to the customer guarantee before accepting them as an affiliate.

      I really hope you leave or have left a review on that thread of your experience as well.

      Not just for the customers sake, but as an affiliate I would never want to affiliate for someone who treated someone like that.
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      I'm not sure if it makes sense to burden the mods
      I think you are wrong about that. What about the next WSO the seller offers? Same thing?

      It's a perhaps minor problem that could become a serious problem if the practice of not giving refunds spreads. The SELLER is the one guaranteeing a refund - the mods need to know if any SELLER is not honoring the promises made in his WSO.

      The Seller-Affiliate relationship should not be the buyer's problem or his concern.

      kay
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  • Profile picture of the author Greg guitar
    I guess I used up all my thanks buttons, but I appreciate every single one of you that took the trouble to contribute your thoughts, and it helped a lot in removing the bad taste I was trying to purge with my opening rant.

    It's nice to be reminded after a bad transaction, that overall, the Forum is full of extremely ethical, decent, thoughtful people-ethical people first and ethical marketers second.
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    • Profile picture of the author mattlaclear
      Originally Posted by Greg guitar View Post

      I guess I used up all my thanks buttons, but I appreciate every single one of you that took the trouble to contribute your thoughts, and it helped a lot in removing the bad taste I was trying to purge with my opening rant.

      It's nice to be reminded after a bad transaction, that overall, the Forum is full of extremely ethical, decent, thoughtful people-ethical people first and ethical marketers second.
      Not sure what the purpose of your rant thread is. You using it as leverage for your refund request?
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      • Profile picture of the author Greg guitar
        Originally Posted by mattlaclear View Post

        Not sure what the purpose of your rant thread is. You using it as leverage for your refund request?
        A rant is a rant-nothing high minded, just a pissed off WSO buyer blowing off steam and trying to get a feel for how others might view the situation, as well as see if anyone responds with similar stories, see if people agree or disagree, etc.

        No hidden agenda-I can't imagine that the guy I'm complaining against would be affected by any of it; he is definitely never going to make good on his false promise, and the thread's not about the affiliate. I'll either get my money or not, and this won't affect it.

        Having said that, a couple people (mainly Kay King), convinced me to report the guy, so I think that was a fairly constructive outcome. I also learned a few things from some of the posts, and I imagine others did too. That is one of the main points of the forum for me.

        Now that I answered, perhaps you can answer for me: what is the purpose of your question? With thousands of threads to choose from, why bother with those you see no point in?
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  • Profile picture of the author Gene Pimentel
    Greg, you are 100% correct. What product sellers fail to recognize is that the WarriorPro affiliate system is just a tool to make it easy for them to sell via affiliates. Just because it alternates payments, rather than taking a percentage and splitting each sale is no concern of the customer. It doesn't matter who that particular payment went to. That is a commission. it is the responsibility of the product owner/seller to honor all refund requests, regardless of how much commission he/she decided to offer. Naturally, it would be fair for the affiliate to cooperate. If they don't, then it's up to the owner to pick up the pieces and to manage their affiliate, perhaps remove them from further commissions.
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    • Profile picture of the author Bryan Zimmerman
      There's a fairly easier solution to this problem and that's running offers on a system that allows the payments to be instantly split. The money comes to the seller and then splits the payment and sends it to the affiliate. Now when there is a refund request, no need to contact the affiliate at all, just hit the refund button and the money comes out of the affiliates account and the vendors account and goes back to the person who is getting refunded.

      Examples of places like this are JVZoo.com and Digi Results

      Affiliates still get paid instantly and you don't have the hassle of tracking down your affiliates for refunds. Vendors are happy because they're not having to pull all the money out of their own pocket if they can't get a hold of an affiliate.
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      • Profile picture of the author kindsvater
        This is easy.

        The seller sold the product, made the promise, and is responsible for the refund.

        Doesn't matter if they actually received the money or not. The seller knew the risk of paying a refund out of its pocket when it (1) used the WSO Plus affiliate program and (2) made the guarantee.

        This matter should be reported to the Warrior Help Desk and to Mike Lantz so action can be taken against the seller. They should not be selling here.

        .
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        • Profile picture of the author StevenJones
          Originally Posted by kindsvater View Post

          This is easy.

          The seller sold the product, made the promise, and is responsible for the refund.

          Doesn't matter if they actually received the money or not. The seller knew the risk of paying a refund out of its pocket when it (1) used the WSO Plus affiliate program and (2) made the guarantee.

          This matter should be reported to the Warrior Help Desk and to Mike Lantz so action can be taken against the seller. They should not be selling here.
          You said it! People should not be treated this way, and this sure isn't the correct way to deal with your customers.
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        • Profile picture of the author Damielle
          The product owner is responsible for refunding his own products. The fact that he used WSO Pro or the affiliate doesn't want to honor the refund is not your problem.

          It shouldn't have even come up at all for discussion. This person is clearly not trying to build a long term business.
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          • Profile picture of the author Colin Palfrey
            Originally Posted by Damielle View Post

            The product owner is responsible for refunding his own products. The fact that he used WSO Pro or the affiliate doesn't want to honor the refund is not your problem.

            (Slaps head) If you point to the money he received then I am sure he will happily click the refund button to return it. If he sends a gift (which it would legally be) then the actual affiliate can still be claimed off through PayPal.

            It shouldn't have even come up at all for discussion. This person is clearly not trying to build a long term business.
            He is! You just haven't thought it through. You would have him destroy the marketplace he sells in.

            If he encourages double refunding by paying someone money when they can then go to PayPal and click and claim it back of someone else, then I would say he should be kicked from the forum. Why? Because he endangers the whole sales system by displaying a vulnerability within the system that will then be exploited.

            What you say is the gut reaction of what appears right. I have nothing against that, it's just that it would cause a collapse of the system if everyone started acting that way.
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  • Profile picture of the author RichBeck
    Greg,

    That is a pain in the posterior! The seller SHOULD have been "old-fashioned" and paid you out of his pocket. It is amazing how many people nowadays are very short sighted about business.

    Last time I read the stats... A happy customer tells two people... an unhappy customer tells seven.... Some people think the Internet is an "ocean" full of potential customers.... So, they can "get away" with it.... They fail to realize the long term damage it does to their reputation and business.....

    As a matter of principle, I hope you get all of your money back.

    All the Best,

    Rich
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  • Profile picture of the author David Keith
    most people dont even realize that any of the $7 dollars scripts and warriorplus and such are just exploiting a work around in the payapl ipn system.

    paypals systems was never designed to allow a sales page to offer anything for sale by john smith and have the money go into jane smiths account. just think about the fraud that would open up if the ebay fraudster seller guys actually figured out they could do this.

    this is just another example in a long line of "hacks" and tricks used by IMers to exploit systems to do things they were not intended to do.

    i know its been happening for a few years, and may continue since paypal does make a lot of money doing it, but realize that it was never the intent of paypal to directly allow other people to take in payments for someone elses sales page.

    but i agree with the OP, if you sell a product, refunds are your problem. and i for one would be screaming real loud to anyone that would listen that the product owner is not being ethical and refusing to issue a refund.

    the guarantee did not state "30 day refund policy IF my business associates agree to offer you a refund".
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    • Profile picture of the author Johnny Slater
      You are wrong here. PayPal instant commissions is not a "hack" and PayPal has no problems with it in any way, as long as it is done in a way that complies with their TOS.

      If PayPal had a problem with this payment model they wouldn't have specifically coded it into their new API system. The API system accepts payments three ways, one of which is exactly the same as what the "instant comission" systems do.

      Originally Posted by David Keith View Post

      most people dont even realize that any of the $7 dollars scripts and warriorplus and such are just exploiting a work around in the payapl ipn system.

      ......

      i know its been happening for a few years, and may continue since paypal does make a lot of money doing it, but realize that it was never the intent of paypal to directly allow other people to take in payments for someone elses sales page.
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      • Profile picture of the author Black Hat Cat
        Banned
        To answer your question, no, it probably isn't legal. You purchased from the seller, not the affiliate. How he chooses to compensate his affiliates is not your concern.
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        • Profile picture of the author Tom B
          Banned
          Originally Posted by Black Hat Cat View Post

          To answer your question, no, it probably isn't legal. You purchased from the seller, not the affiliate. How he chooses to compensate his affiliates is not your concern.
          Payment went directly to the affiliate so how did he purchase from the seller?
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          • Profile picture of the author kindsvater
            Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

            Payment went directly to the affiliate so how did he purchase from the seller?
            The affiliate is the agent of the seller in this situation and the seller is responsible. It is the seller who is redirecting payment of their product through a different PayPal account. There is no change in who the seller is. All that is happening is the seller owes the affiliate money per the affiliate arrangement so the seller is redirecting payment to the affiliate's PayPal account.

            What you are suggesting is that the entire transaction is fraudulent if the seller has no responsibility.

            Doesn't matter if the seller was paid directly, the seller directed payment through an affiliate, or PayPal accepted payment on behalf of the seller.

            For example: if you buy shoes at Macys using a Visa card and want a refund, Macys does not get to flip you the bird and tell you to demand money from Visa - just because for some reason Visa has not transferred money to Macys.

            Another example: you buy a Camaro from Andy but Andy asks you to write your check to Bob because Andy owes Bob some money. Andy doesn't tell you about an electrical problem and the car explodes, causing you severe injuries. You're going to claim Bob is responsible for your injuries and not Andy? Andy was still paid because his obligation to Bob was taken care of (aka owed affiliate commission). And it was still Andy's car. And Andy's fraud. And you know darn well in this situation you would say the purchase was from Andy.

            .
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            • Profile picture of the author Tom B
              Banned
              Originally Posted by kindsvater View Post

              The affiliate is the agent of the seller in this situation and the seller is responsible. It is the seller who is redirecting payment of their product through a different PayPal account. There is no change in who the seller is. All that is happening is the seller owes the affiliate money per the affiliate arrangement so the seller is redirecting payment to the affiliate's PayPal account.

              What you are suggesting is that the entire transaction is fraudulent if the seller has no responsibility.

              Doesn't matter if the seller was paid directly, the seller directed payment through an affiliate, or PayPal accepted payment on behalf of the seller.

              For example: if you buy shoes at Macys using a Visa card and want a refund, Macys does not get to flip you the bird and tell you to demand money from Visa - just because for some reason Visa has not transferred money to Macys.

              Another example: you buy a Camaro from Andy but Andy asks you to write your check to Bob because Andy owes Bob some money. Andy doesn't tell you about an electrical problem and the car explodes, causing you severe injuries. You're going to claim Bob is responsible for your injuries and not Andy? Andy was still paid because his obligation to Bob was taken care of (aka owed affiliate commission). And it was still Andy's car. And Andy's fraud. And you know darn well in this situation you would say the purchase was from Andy.

              .

              It is obvious you don't watch Judge Judy, Brian.

              That isn't what happened here anyway. It sounds like Greg is getting his refund and he just didn't like that he had to send an email to the affiliate.

              Cry me a river.

              What is the legal time period for issuing a refund (in the US)?
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            • Profile picture of the author J Bold
              Originally Posted by kindsvater View Post


              For example: if you buy shoes at Macys using a Visa card and want a refund, Macys does not get to flip you the bird and tell you to demand money from Visa - just because for some reason Visa has not transferred money to Macys.

              Another example: you buy a Camaro from Andy but Andy asks you to write your check to Bob because Andy owes Bob some money. Andy doesn't tell you about an electrical problem and the car explodes, causing you severe injuries. You're going to claim Bob is responsible for your injuries and not Andy? Andy was still paid because his obligation to Bob was taken care of (aka owed affiliate commission). And it was still Andy's car. And Andy's fraud. And you know darn well in this situation you would say the purchase was from Andy.

              .

              Wouldn't it make much more sense and be a more applicable if you used an example of a car being sold by a car lot/dealership? I'm not sure too many people are going to be buying cars from one person but paying someone else, that doesn't really happen or make much sense to me.

              Seems somewhat more applicable to compare it to buying a Honda at a car dealership. You want to return the car. Do you return the car to Honda and ask for your money back or do you go to the dealership?

              Not the exact same setup but I think we need to keep comparisons in the real world as I think the real world is where the confusion and differing opinions reside.

              So let me try another possible analogy. Affiliates are basically salesmen for a product, right? So say you go buy a car from a salesman. You want to return it for the refund under the refund policy of the dealership. You can go either to the dealership or the salesman for your initial request, probably, but what's probably going to happen is the dealership will refund you your money and depending on their refund policy with regards to commissions, will talk back the salesman's commissions (not sure how it works everywhere and in all industries but sales jobs I've had, if there's a refund you lose your commission). So you always pay the dealership when you buy the car and they sort out the commissions on their end, but the salesman still loses their commission.

              As to the vendor's obligation, the problem in this Warriorplus system is it's imperfect in that if you can't get a hold of the affiliate, you would need to refund out of your own pocket, which means you lost money because somebody bought your product. It would happen rarely so not a huge deal.

              But a way to solve these possible problems is those affiliate programs like the new competitor on the market JVZoo, where the refund will always be in control of the owner of the product, and if they issue a refund the portion of the sale that went to the affiliate will automatically come out of the paypal account of the affiliate.

              But there should still be given time for the affiliate to refund with a system like Warrior Plus. Affiliates ARE expected to refund when they get a refund request, as the system is set up that way. So in this case, whether it would in the end come down to the affiliate refusing to refund and the vendor refusing to refund, well they'd both be in trouble, wouldn't they? If it doesn't happen within a time period, 3 days, 7 days, whatever, then the product owner could refund.

              In this case sounds like the product owner was contacting the wrong affiliate, which if he was using the Warrior Plus system correctly, would seem to me to be pretty hard to do. It's amazingly easy to look up a buyer's info in the system and see if it was an affiliate sale and if the sale actually went directly to the affiliate.

              So, everyone can wax lyrical here but I think it was poor attention to detail and bad form on the seller's part, but it all got sorted in the end.

              But hey, at least it gives people a chance to argue!

              But if kindsvater is saying that the seller has the legal obligation to refund if the affiliate refuses, then I'd be inclined to believe him as I believe he's a lawyer

              edit: Also I meant to say it's hard to find another analogy where a salesman and the entity they sell for would be alternating collection of payments in order for the salesman to get paid their commissions.

              ...
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            • Profile picture of the author Jeff Henshaw
              Payment went directly to the affiliate so how did he purchase from the seller?
              He clicked on the WSO "buy button" :rolleyes:
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              • Profile picture of the author Tom B
                Banned
                Originally Posted by Jeff Henshaw View Post

                He clicked on the WSO "buy button" :rolleyes:

                Thanks for that captain obvious. :rolleyes:

                If I click a buy now button on your webpage that goes to your clickbank product, do I purchase from you or from Clickbank?
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  • Hi Greg, this happened to me on latest WSO.
    One of my customers wanted a refund, but the sale went through an affiliate.
    I sent the refund request to that affiliate, but he wasn't refunded in 7 days.
    So I decided to send him the price of WSO to avoid losing the face for a bad affiliate, that I hope will be banned one day for stealing money.

    He was happy, and I earned a customer. Or a serial refunder, who knows?
    Anyway sometimes we need to show our human side.

    See you,
    Alessandro Zamboni
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  • Profile picture of the author davidtong
    Hmm, how do you file a refund on a WSO BTW if the seller wouldn't reply to any of your PM/Email? Sorry, noob on WF refunds... I never asked for a refund before as I believe most products do feed me some info, but recently, I bought a WSO that was borderline blackhat as it violates several platforms' TOS, but the product creator and the 'spokesperson' never replies here (PM) or their emails and have stopped responding to customer queries in the WSO thread as well.

    Thanks.
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    • Profile picture of the author Rod Cortez
      Originally Posted by davidtong View Post

      Hmm, how do you file a refund on a WSO BTW if the seller wouldn't reply to any of your PM/Email? Sorry, noob on WF refunds... I never asked for a refund before as I believe most products do feed me some info, but recently, I bought a WSO that was borderline BlueFart as it violates several platforms' TOS, but the product creator and the 'spokesperson' never replies here (PM) or their emails and have stopped responding to customer queries in the WSO thread as well.

      Thanks.
      It depends on how you paid. I always pay using a credit card that has buyer protection (most do these days) so even if Paypal tells me to go pound sand, my financial institution won't. When you threaten a charge back that usually gets the sellers attention.

      Secondly, if the WSO seller is not responding to your refund inquires within a reasonable period of time (3 to 5 days is reasonable to me) report them to the moderators. This is unacceptable.

      I say 3 to 5 business days because there are instances where a WSO seller gets deluged with customer support e-mails. Sometimes a family or health issue comes up and they can't get back to you right away. So it's important to give the WSO seller some reasonable time to get back to you.

      Sometimes I see people in WSO threads with a complaint "no response and it's been 2 hours". And I'm like "REALLY?", I mean give it some time.

      RoD
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      • Profile picture of the author davidtong
        Originally Posted by Rod Cortez View Post

        It depends on how you paid. I always pay using a credit card that has buyer protection (most do these days) so even if Paypal tells me to go pound sand, my financial institution won't. When you threaten a charge back that usually gets the sellers attention.

        Secondly, if the WSO seller is not responding to your refund inquires within a reasonable period of time (3 to 5 days is reasonable to me) report them to the moderators. This is unacceptable.

        I say 3 to 5 business days because there are instances where a WSO seller gets deluged with customer support e-mails. Sometimes a family or health issue comes up and they can't get back to you right away. So it's important to give the WSO seller some reasonable time to get back to you.

        Sometimes I see people in WSO threads with a complaint "no response and it's been 2 hours". And I'm like "REALLY?", I mean give it some time.

        RoD
        Thanks Rod,

        In my case, it was a refund request sent 3-5x over a span of 2 weeks, hehe...

        I'll report it to the mod then, but I doubt the creator gives a damn, he only has less than 10 posts in the forum.
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  • Profile picture of the author Rod Cortez
    Greg,

    Please notify the mods by using the red triangular report post button underneath the person's avatar. Point them to this thread too.

    Secondly, you may want to contact the seller again and let them know they are legally responsible for the refund, not the affiliate and that they have been reported to the WF moderators and they will need to explain why they are not offering the refund.

    RoD
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  • Profile picture of the author jasonthewebmaster
    Banned
    Did you know that Paypal does not require the seller to refund you on digital downloads?

    When you buy a digital download, you are not covered by Paypal's buyer protection policy. Their 60-day refund policy does not apply UNLESS you can prove that the buyer lied about the product in his sales page, or if you can prove he did not actually deliver the product.

    This is why I don't offer guarantees on my digital download products - cuz I am not required to!
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    • Profile picture of the author The Copy Nazi
      Banned
      Originally Posted by jasonthewebmaster View Post

      Did you know that Paypal does not require the seller to refund you on digital downloads?

      When you buy a digital download, you are not covered by Paypal's buyer protection policy. Their 60-day refund policy does not apply UNLESS you can prove that the buyer lied about the product in his sales page, or if you can prove he did not actually deliver the product.

      This is why I don't offer guarantees on my digital download products - cuz I am not required to!
      Yes that's true - they don't refund on digital products BUT they do take into account a Seller's history. If there are many unhappy campers contacting PayPal its definitely gonna raise some red flags.
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  • Profile picture of the author mattpaul2000
    Not great practise nor a way to attract or retain new business. With the WSO if you do not know the reputation of the Warrior you are always taking a gamble.
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  • Profile picture of the author scraig
    Maybe there should be a system in place where a percentage of affiliate commissions are held up until the refund period passes. Similar to what Click Bank does.
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  • Profile picture of the author Tom B
    Banned
    Did you even contact the affiliate for a refund?

    If the affiliate agreed to sell on the seller's terms then he is responsible for the refund. The seller didn't get payment so there isn't anything to refund.

    If the affiliate refused to refund then that is a different matter. So far, you haven't said anything in terms if you contacted the affiliate.
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    • Profile picture of the author sal64
      Regardless, surely it comes back to the original seller?

      I mean for a lousy few bucks, they risk their reputation... not that many have one to begin with.

      As a WSO seller, I would just refund it. Plus, I'd never offer 100%on the front end unless it's a low priced product.

      @Gene... nice see you buddy. I haven't seen to many posts from you lately.

      Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

      Did you even contact the affiliate for a refund?

      If the affiliate agreed to sell on the seller's terms then he is responsible for the refund. The seller didn't get payment so there isn't anything to refund.

      If the affiliate refused to refund then that is a different matter. So far, you haven't said anything in terms if you contacted the affiliate.
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      • Profile picture of the author Tom B
        Banned
        Originally Posted by sal64 View Post

        Regardless, surely it comes back to the original seller?

        I mean for a lousy few bucks, they risk their reputation... not that many have one to begin with.

        As a WSO seller, I would just refund it. Plus, I'd never offer 100%on the front end unless it's a low priced product.

        @Gene... nice see you buddy. I haven't seen to many posts from you lately.
        Price of the product is irrelevant.

        Did he contact the affiliate for a refund (ideally, the seller should have forwarded the refund request to the affiliate)?

        Reading between the lines, it seems he didn't contact the affiliate for a refund. He certainly didn't say the affiliate didn't refund him and the seller won't compensate.

        It sounds like he wants a refund but only on his terms. Sorry, the world doesn't work like that. I don't like having to mail in a computer to have it fixed instead of dropping it off at the retail store I purchased it. That is just reality.

        If the OP is just being stubborn by not contacting the affiliate, I wouldn't want him to purchase from me again anyway.
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        • Profile picture of the author Bill Farnham
          From the OP...
          Originally Posted by Greg guitar View Post

          He hadn't mentioned the affiliate's name until the last email, and so before I got that, I looked it up in my Paypal account, and contacted the affiliate, demanding to know why my refund request was being stonewalled.

          Later I had to apologize for accusing the affiliate of stonewalling, since it is the first SHE had heard of it. In other words when the owner had gotten my request for a refund, he forwarded it to the wrong affiliate-a man. But he thinks he went "above and BEYOND" for me, because he'd made the same mistake twice.
          Here Thomas, read between these lines...

          Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

          Did he contact the affiliate for a refund (ideally, the seller should have forwarded the refund request to the affiliate)?

          Reading between the lines, it seems he didn't contact the affiliate for a refund.
          Looks like the OP did reach out to the affiliate.

          ~Bill
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          • Profile picture of the author Tom B
            Banned
            Originally Posted by Bill Farnham View Post

            From the OP...


            Here Thomas, read between these lines...



            Looks like the OP did reach out to the affiliate.

            ~Bill
            How long did he give before his demand?

            So the seller screwed up and made a mistake. The guy could have 100 affiliates. Greg didn't contact the affiliate when he was told too. He contacted them later to see why the affiliate didn't refund. The affiliate said they didn't realize he wanted a refund since Greg never contacted them directly like the seller told them.

            It sounds like the affiliate will give him the refund. So, Greg will get his refund and wanted to bitch anyway.


            I should put in my contacts. haha
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            • Profile picture of the author eskimoto
              Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

              How long did he give before his demand?

              So the seller screwed up and made a mistake. The guy could have 100 affiliates. Greg didn't contact the affiliate when he was told too. He contacted them later to see why the affiliate didn't refund. The affiliate said they didn't realize he wanted a refund since Greg never contacted them directly like the seller told them.

              It sounds like the affiliate will give him the refund. So, Greg will get his refund and wanted to bitch anyway.


              I should put in my contacts. haha
              Greg simply didnt want to get involved in dealings between affiliate and marchant, not his problem. He went to the person that had promised no hassle money back gurantee.

              Marchant should have issued therefund and then chase it up with his affiliate.

              It seems like IMers these days got so cocky that they think people should be grateful for being allowed to buy their products.

              Well guys, not true, we demand good customer service in online world as much as in offline.

              And plus - this type of bad business shoud be named and shamed each time it happens.
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              • Profile picture of the author Tom B
                Banned
                Originally Posted by eskimoto View Post

                Greg simply didnt want to get involved in dealings between affiliate and marchant, not his problem. He went to the person that had promised no hassle money back gurantee.

                Marchant should have issued therefund and then chase it up with his affiliate.

                It seems like IMers these days got so cocky that they think people should be grateful for being allowed to buy their products.

                Well guys, not true, we demand good customer service in online world as much as in offline.

                And plus - this type of bad business shoud be named and shamed each time it happens.
                I don't like having to mail in my computer to get it fixed under warranty but I do.

                I don't like having to wait at Best Buy for someone to help me get a product just so I can purchase it, but I do.

                If you don't like it then go somewhere else but don't sit there and tell me how to run my business.

                Talk about getting cocky!

                The merchant can't get a refund from the affiliate. How the hell is that going to work since the affiliate was paid directly?

                He sent an email to an affiliate. He just got the wrong affiliate. Not everyone is as perfect as some in this thread.

                If Greg sent him emails like the OP, then no wonder he got a responses that he did. All Greg had to do is reply to the receipt from Paypal. He probably wasted more time then the product was worth.
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        • Profile picture of the author eskimoto
          Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

          Price of the product is irrelevant.

          Did he contact the affiliate for a refund (ideally, the seller should have forwarded the refund request to the affiliate)?

          Reading between the lines, it seems he didn't contact the affiliate for a refund. He certainly didn't say the affiliate didn't refund him and the seller won't compensate.

          It sounds like he wants a refund but only on his terms. Sorry, the world doesn't work like that. I don't like having to mail in a computer to have it fixed instead of dropping it off at the retail store I purchased it. That is just reality.

          If the OP is just being stubborn by not contacting the affiliate, I wouldn't want him to purchase from me again anyway.

          he said that in the very first post:

          He hadn't mentioned the affiliate's name until the last email, and so before I got that, I looked it up in my Paypal account, and contacted the affiliate, demanding to know why my refund request was being stonewalled.

          Later I had to apologize for accusing the affiliate of stonewalling, since it is the first SHE had heard of it. In other words when the owner had gotten my request for a refund, he forwarded it to the wrong affiliate-a man. But he thinks he went "above and BEYOND" for me, because he'd made the same mistake twice.



          And also, how on earth is it his problem what type of deal the marchant has got with an affiliate? at the end of the ay the money back guarantee was on the sellers sales copy and the seller should be responsible for any refunds.

          An affiliate is not a retailer hence shouldnt be dealing directly with refunds. Affiliate only recommends or redirects to a marchant. If i was standing outside Currys trying to get people in and was getting paid 100% comission for each item they buy (in offline world this business model seems crazy) would i be reponsible for any refunds? NO I WOULD NOT
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          • Profile picture of the author Colin Palfrey
            Originally Posted by eskimoto View Post

            ...at the end of the ay the money back guarantee was on the sellers sales copy and the seller should be responsible for any refunds.
            The reason he has no refund button in PayPal is because the vendor never received any money. You cannot refund a payment you did not receive. It's literally impossible.

            Not to mention it would involve the immediate closing of WSO Pro, due to the fact every scammer out there would start double refunding.

            Originally Posted by eskimoto View Post

            An affiliate is not a retailer hence shouldnt be dealing directly with refunds. Affiliate only recommends or redirects to a marchant. If i was standing outside Currys trying to get people in and was getting paid 100% comission for each item they buy (in offline world this business model seems crazy) would i be reponsible for any refunds? NO I WOULD NOT
            Yes you would. Under UK law you inherit any T&C that a product is sold under. Currys would not be stupid enough to set up such a system. If they did you then you would be selling under their T&C and as such a refund would come from you. Why? because you were the one paid, so legally the only person who can refund the buyer is the person who has been paid the money.

            As to whether I like the way this system works out for buyers, I don't. With that said, I won't help create a new opportunity to scam the WF.
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            • Profile picture of the author eskimoto
              Originally Posted by Colin Palfrey View Post

              The reason he has no refund button in PayPal is because the vendor never received any money. You cannot refund a payment you did not receive. It's literally impossible.

              Not to mention it would involve the immediate closing of WSO Pro, due to the fact every scammer out there would start double refunding.



              Yes you would. Under UK law you inherit any T&C that a product is sold under. Currys would not be stupid enough to set up such a system. If they did you then you would be selling under their T&C and as such a refund would come from you. Why? because you were the one paid, so legally the only person who can refund the buyer is the person who has been paid the money.

              As to whether I like the way this system works out for buyers, I don't. With that said, I won't help create a new opportunity to scam the WF.
              Well this all means that the system is wrong at its core. Wouldnt be easier if vendor was collecting all the money and them paying his affiliates the agreed commision - even if its 100%

              This would place customers exectly where they should be - in a place called "peace of mind"

              As you rightly saind Currys would never allow this business model and would never allow me to collect money on their behalf. So why IM vendors Are allowing this to happen? Why to make things over-complicated?
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              • Profile picture of the author Colin Palfrey
                Originally Posted by eskimoto View Post

                As you rightly said Currys would never allow this business model and would never allow me to collect money on their behalf. So why IM vendors Are allowing this to happen? Why to make things over-complicated?
                That's the squirrels nuts isn't it! :rolleyes:

                We are in a market place where the affiliates want more profit and they want it now. The vendor wants to sell more and more product as he is being squeezed further. The customer wants his questions and complaints answered within half an hour, regardless of whether the vendor is currently asleep.

                This is a greed-fueled and relatively unpoliced system, and as such it will have all the expected problems.

                Should you start adding restrictions?

                I don't think the WF wants to start getting involved in which payment system you use or the details of its users businesses. The WSO section is a marketplace, not a nursery. I mean no disrespect but governments world wide have an obligation to stamp out crime. The WF has no such obligation but has done a far better job in my opinion, with minimal interference in its users businesses. And anyone that doesn't like it is free to go elsewhere.

                If there is an outright scam going on then fair enough the forum will take action to protect its users, but this system is relatively fair by internet standards. I'm not happy about the system, but you have to compare it to what else is out there.

                As it stands, the customer had the opportunity to show PayPal the guarantee and get their money back through a dispute. The system in place is not perfect. As you have seen though, he got his money back. It isn't great but anything else is worse.
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          • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
            Originally Posted by eskimoto View Post

            An affiliate is not a retailer hence shouldnt be collecting money at the time of sale.
            Fixed that for you.

            The problem is that "affiliate" means a whole lot of very different things depending on the exact mechanisms in place. We can do a very different kind of affiliate marketing online than we could ever do offline.
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        • Profile picture of the author Greg guitar
          Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

          Price of the product is irrelevant.

          Did he contact the affiliate for a refund (ideally, the seller should have forwarded the refund request to the affiliate)?

          Reading between the lines, it seems he didn't contact the affiliate for a refund. He certainly didn't say the affiliate didn't refund him and the seller won't compensate.

          It sounds like he wants a refund but only on his terms. Sorry, the world doesn't work like that. I don't like having to mail in a computer to have it fixed instead of dropping it off at the retail store I purchased it. That is just reality.

          If the OP is just being stubborn by not contacting the affiliate, I wouldn't want him to purchase from me again anyway.
          Were you just in a bad mood yesterday?

          Maybe before you comment further, you should go back and read the lines themselves. It seems you got distracted by what you imagined was in the space between them.

          I did contact the affiliate, as others who read the actual lines informed you, but if you read between the lines of the guarantee, it would say something like: "this only applies if the affiliate who sent you is good for it. Although I approved them to represent my product, I refuse to do anything to help you beyond emailing them a second time, should they fail to honor a refund request. Other than that, you can try to get the money from Paypal or your bank. Once it gets to that point, I wash my hands of you."

          That being the case, I can't see any good reason the seller could not have removed a lot of the pain of this absurdly convoluted process, by simply replying to my first email or pm, with a template response for wannabe refunders, something like:

          "My Darling, Sweet, Adorable, Customer,

          "Thanks for your business-sorry my product sucks so bad it stunk up your entire house. Apologies too, if I got too busy planning my next worthless product; we try to get back to everyone that needs help within 24 hours or less, but sometimes we get insanely busy.

          Since 100% of the price you paid went to the affiliate who referred you, I have to contact them or you do, or both, (the choice is yours) requesting that they provide your refund as promptly as possible.

          If you wish to save some time and effort, you can avoid the need to visit my site, create a support ticket, and wait for someone to answer it, by simply emailing the affiliate yourself. Since that is exactly what we would do for you anyway, going direct is often the preferred option, and is actually less effort, as it doesn't require creating a profile and then a ticket. You can find their email in your Paypal account by... (explain how to find it).

          If you prefer, you can find our support desk here: [URL]
          Just create a login, submit a ticket with the purchase details from your receipt and the words, "please refund the useless WSO", and we will email the affiliate within 24 hours.

          If the affiliate doesn't refund you within 72 hours, please let me know, and I will do whatever it takes to make it happen. Thank you for your patience.

          Sincerely, Mr. Yuck

          PS: I know the process is a little slow, and I appreciate your patience. Because of the fact that we give 100% commissions and Warrior Plus pays out instantly, we have to do refunds this way. I'd love to refund you instantly right now, but as soon as scammers got wind of it, they'd be buying the product just to get a double refund-one from me, and the other, from the affiliate, Paypal, or a CC company. Let me know if you need a fuller explanation of any part of our process, or have any concerns whatsoever.

          PPS: Don't worry-we won't leave you hanging. You will get your refund; I will make sure of it, even if all else fails, and I have to do it out of pocket."



          It isn't perfect-it's just off the top of my head, and should be rewritten, but it's better than stringing someone along for a week, forcing them to go through your support desk more than once before even finding out what your process is, and then telling them that all you're willing to do is forward the request twice, taking no responsibility for the refund, and that they will just have to take action against the affiliate themselves, with no help from the person who made the promise.
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          • Profile picture of the author Tom B
            Banned
            Originally Posted by Greg guitar View Post

            Were you just in a bad mood yesterday?
            Nope, I am not the person posting rants on the forum. Look, I think you could have handled this a lot better.

            Especially, after talking with someone who saw some of your emails to the seller.

            I don't agree with the seller in his stance but understand some of the responses you got based on your emails.

            Just because you purchase a $20 product doesn't give you the right to act like an idiot. For some reason, some buyers don't understand that. I know I won't accept abuse.

            Besides, you might want to read the rest of the thread before commenting on something that was discussed already.
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            • Profile picture of the author Greg guitar
              Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

              Nope, I am not the person posting rants on the forum. Look, I think you could have handled this a lot better.

              Especially, after talking with someone who saw some of your emails to the seller.

              I don't agree with the seller in his stance but understand some of the responses you got based on your emails.

              Just because you purchase a $20 product doesn't give you the right to act like an idiot. For some reason, some buyers don't understand that. I know I won't accept abuse.

              Besides, you might want to read the rest of the thread before commenting on something that was discussed already.

              Man, I've got no idea what your problem is, but your hostility meter is going to break if you don't tone it down. Could you be any more hostile, condescending, and presumptuous toward a stranger? I don't know you-so I'm totally baffled as to why you came at me like you did from page 1. I'm predisposed to like people, but the way you came at me with negative, hostile remarks about me from the minute you got here, makes you a challenge beyond my capabilities.

              Your narrative right away was a collection of the worst, most insulting possible interpretations of my motives and actions, (real and imagined) told with the confidence of one who has all the facts, and could see what none of the other Warriors could-the unpleasant, unreasonable, demanding prima donna of a customer behind the rant.

              According to your portrayal, I'm a guy who simply enjoys bitching for no good reason, evidenced by the "fact" that I was bitching in spite of the knowledge that I was going to be refunded anyway (I've still got no idea why you'd think that-and still haven't heard anything).

              Did you ever apologize for trashing me, after early in the thread, the main "fact" (that I stubbornly refused to contact the affiliate), supporting your worst possible version of me as demanding prima donna was irrefutably debunked for you by a couple of more attentive readers than yourself?

              Not at all; in fact in the above quoted post, you had the gall to take me to task for quoting the very post that was debunked, because it "was discussed already", though you never acknowledged anything wrong with it, let alone apologized!

              You assumed wrong once again when you told me to go back and read the thread: I had read the thread first. Guess what, I found no real discussion-and anyone who is insulted based on false "facts" deserves at the very least, an "oops, I got the facts wrong", from the person who made them up.

              Your idea of discussion must be extremely broad. The only thing that took place was you commented about me, a couple people debunked your mean spirited rewrite of my story, and you acknowledged nothing.

              Not only have you acknowledged nothing, much less apologized for posting negative nonsense about me; you're still "schooling" me, because apparently I didn't know until now, that buying $20 products doesn't give me the right to act like an idiot. Did you know that 4k posts doesn't give you any more rights than a $20 product?

              Out of everyone in here, you're the only one that's been unrelentingly hostile when addressing me, or commenting on my alleged behavior. The fact that the other comments addressing me or my story are overwhelmingly supportive and nice, and nobody but you is venting spleen at me, should maybe give you a clue. Often when you think everyone else is wrong, and you're the only one that can see the truth, it turns out to be the other way around. This is one of those times.
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    • Profile picture of the author Brad Spencer
      Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

      Did you even contact the affiliate for a refund?

      If the affiliate agreed to sell on the seller's terms then he is responsible for the refund. The seller didn't get payment so there isn't anything to refund.

      If the affiliate refused to refund then that is a different matter. So far, you haven't said anything in terms if you contacted the affiliate.
      This has happened in a sort of way to me before. Obviously it's easy in W+ to look things up but you can't "refund" a sale in W+ that went to an affiliate.

      Obviously (b/c I know i"ll get flamed), you can send money to the people but then like Coby said above you get a double refund.

      The issue a lot of people (and this is a cost of doing business so I take it happily b/c I'm blessed to have a profitable WSO vendor) is that people are refunding WSO's a lot more.

      A $5 product will teach you a tactic...AT BEST

      A $97 product is a lot more likely to teach you something thats' more systematic.

      The WSO board has gotten a lot of vendors offering 20 videos for $5 and this encourages people to see that as the standard...and it's not.

      This relates to refunds in that people refund something thats 1 or 2 videos and a quick cheatsheet.

      That's what $5 would buy anywhere else...so don't refund b/c you didn't get your 20 videos that are going to sit on the sidelines.

      Ugh...idk I'm venting too about customers and while I'm happy to deal with this because I recognize my blessings...I feel like no one sees this from the vendor's perspective...which is equally important as the customer's viewpoint.

      Cheers,

      Brad

      PS- to the OP...I"m sorry you had a bad experience...it's situations like this which make people hesitate and get cynical in this game...my advice is to be more careful on purchase (crazy income claims are almost always ideal scenarios not usual results for completely new people for the respective subject).
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  • Profile picture of the author officer_iron
    That story is very unfortunate. I completely agree with you that the WSO creator should be ultimately responsible if it comes down to it. Not only is this infuriating, it's just bad business. Obviously you (or anyone else that had this same problem) will NEVER buy another product from this seller again. Instead of taking the chance to build a stronger bond with a customer (you) and improve his reputation, he ruined it.
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  • Profile picture of the author travlinguy
    This is tough stuff, especially the way things are set up now with WarriorPlus in the mix. First, I think if the seller offers a guarantee, s/he needs to honor it. But before that happens I believe the seller's responsibility is to direct the refund request to the appropriate affiliate.

    By the way the OP presented the issue, it appears that the original seller might not have been aware of how the WarriorPlus system works. This happened to me my first time around using Warrior Plus. I didn't know affilates were responsible for refunds and didn't even know the Warrior Plus system well enough to direct the request to the right affiliate.

    So where's the common ground in such a cluster fcuk? Ultimately, the refund falls onto the person who offered the guarantee in the first place. And if it means that person is out the price of the product, so be it. To avoid such a problem, the original seller has the resources to know who the affiliate is and to put pressure on them. And if that pressure doesn't work, the original seller still needs to step up and make good on his or her guarantee.

    Such a stand isn't popular in the shadows of the fall of Western Civilization but will keep you in good stead with the Universe at large. :p
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  • Profile picture of the author Osman_M
    Thats very dumb of the owner to do that really. I mean he/she should have went ahead issued your the refund regardless if the affiliate is the one that got paid. Every product owner should have a budget for refunds even if the product was sold through affiliates. If you don't mind me asking how much was it that he was not willing to refund?
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    • Profile picture of the author Tom B
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Osman_M View Post

      Thats very dumb of the owner to do that really. I mean he/she should have went ahead issued your the refund regardless if the affiliate is the one that got paid. Every product owner should have a budget for refunds even if the product was sold through affiliates. If you don't mind me asking how much was it that he was not willing to refund?
      Let me know which seller does that so I ask them for a refund and ask the affiliate for a refund.

      I can bank all day long.

      I can create a wso on how to do this and retire.
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  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
    In my opinion the SELLER is always responsible for refunds is there is a refund guarantee.
    Good plan. Encourage double-dipping on refunds. "Steal the product and get double your money back!"

    Think, people!

    Yes, the seller is responsible. The proper approach would be for the seller to ask the affiliate to do what they agreed to do when the affiliate applied: Honor the stated policy. If they don't, the seller should honor the refund and report the affiliate to Mike Lantz.

    Why go to the affiliate at all? Well, that's part of the agreement, for one thing. For another, there's the small issue of people who order with credit cards or echecks and don't have a Paypal account. If I understand the process correctly, the only way the funds can be credited back to the customer's account is through a refund from the person who actually got the payment.


    Paul
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    • Profile picture of the author Tom B
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

      Good plan. Encourage double-dipping on refunds. "Steal the product and get double your money back!"

      Think, people!

      Yes, the seller is responsible. The proper approach would be for the seller to ask the affiliate to do what they agreed to do when the affiliate applied: Honor the stated policy. If they don't, the seller should honor the refund and report the affiliate to Mike Lantz.

      Why go to the affiliate at all? Well, that's part of the agreement, for one thing. For another, there's the small issue of people who order with credit cards or echecks and don't have a Paypal account. If I understand the process correctly, the only way the funds can be credited back to the customer's account is through a refund from the person who actually got the payment.


      Paul
      Damn Paul, you are going to kill my new wso and retirement plan!
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      • Profile picture of the author networkersmagnet
        Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

        Damn Paul, you are going to kill my new wso and retirement plan!
        You can Still go ahead Creating You WSO on how to Go about this issue... I can really be controversial....

        Though I think the Seller should be totally responsible for the Guaranty, I don't think He should be the one to do the refund but it also depends if there is a term guarding the affiliate and the actual product owner on it.

        If the Product owner Must take full responsibility I believe he has to ensure He goes after the affiliate to make sure the customer is kept and satisfied...

        Keeping a customer is well worth the Move.
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  • Profile picture of the author Steven Fullman
    Hypothetical:

    If I offered a zirconia ring to my buyers...

    ...but an affiliate of mine decided to change my description to a 2 carat diamond...

    ...how am I responsible for any refund requests I'll receive on his behalf?

    Or have I totally missed the point?

    Cheers,
    Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
    Originally Posted by Greg guitar View Post

    He hadn't mentioned the affiliate's name until the last email, and so before I got that, I looked it up in my Paypal account, and contacted the affiliate, demanding to know why my refund request was being stonewalled.
    Let me put this in perspective for you.

    Bob offered you a product created by Joe.

    You agreed to buy the product, and gave Bob your money.

    You didn't like the product, so you asked Joe for your money back.

    Except Joe doesn't have your money. Bob does.

    Meanwhile, Joe thinks George has your money.

    So you're demanding your money from Joe (who doesn't have it), and Joe is demanding your money from George (who doesn't have it), and Bob knows nothing about any of this.

    Precisely what part of this is unethical?

    Now, I'll grant you this.

    It is risky for Joe to give you a product while Bob collects the money.

    It is stupid for Joe to keep bad records and think George has the money.

    Both of these are inherent problems with rotating commission systems. (Other affiliate and commission systems have their own inherent problems, which are outside the scope of this discussion.)

    Joe is supposed to make a little extra effort to reduce his risk and maintain his records when he has a rotating commission system.

    But a shocking number of product vendors are crappy business owners and do not know or care about such things.

    Joe isn't unethical. He's just a crappy business owner. He sucks at this, and needs to go learn how real businesses operate. But like most people, Joe is selfish, ignorant, and mean.

    Joe does not care about his customers. He just cares about money in his PayPal account, because he is selfish.

    Joe does not know about affiliate programs. He just knows that if you approve people as affiliates you get more money in your PayPal account, because he is ignorant.

    Joe does not want to solve your problem. He just wants you to shut up and leave him alone about your stupid refund no matter how unsatisfied you are, because he is mean.

    In short, Joe isn't unethical. He's just a random untrained human being who doesn't know how to run a business. He's not trying to get away with anything. He's just an idiot.
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    • Profile picture of the author sal64
      To paraphrase Robert DeNiro in Analyze This...

      "You... you... you're good... you're very good"



      Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

      Let me put this in perspective for you.

      Bob offered you a product created by Joe.

      You agreed to buy the product, and gave Bob your money.

      You didn't like the product, so you asked Joe for your money back.

      Except Joe doesn't have your money. Bob does.

      Meanwhile, Joe thinks George has your money.

      So you're demanding your money from Joe (who doesn't have it), and Joe is demanding your money from George (who doesn't have it), and Bob knows nothing about any of this.

      Precisely what part of this is unethical?

      Now, I'll grant you this.

      It is risky for Joe to give you a product while Bob collects the money.

      It is stupid for Joe to keep bad records and think George has the money.

      Both of these are inherent problems with rotating commission systems. (Other affiliate and commission systems have their own inherent problems, which are outside the scope of this discussion.)

      Joe is supposed to make a little extra effort to reduce his risk and maintain his records when he has a rotating commission system.

      But a shocking number of product vendors are crappy business owners and do not know or care about such things.

      Joe isn't unethical. He's just a crappy business owner. He sucks at this, and needs to go learn how real businesses operate. But like most people, Joe is selfish, ignorant, and mean.

      Joe does not care about his customers. He just cares about money in his PayPal account, because he is selfish.

      Joe does not know about affiliate programs. He just knows that if you approve people as affiliates you get more money in your PayPal account, because he is ignorant.

      Joe does not want to solve your problem. He just wants you to shut up and leave him alone about your stupid refund no matter how unsatisfied you are, because he is mean.

      In short, Joe isn't unethical. He's just a random untrained human being who doesn't know how to run a business. He's not trying to get away with anything. He's just an idiot.
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  • Profile picture of the author Colin Palfrey
    First of all I realize this isn't going to be popular. However, when you sell something as an affiliate you inherit the T&C it is sold under.

    This is certainly the law in the UK and Ireland. Judging by recent debates I've read over the inherited GPL license of Wordpress, I am inclined to believe it is the same in the US. If it isn't then wait for the scammers to descend as they surely will.

    Also, I would advice people to look up the definition of a refund. I'll give you a hint, it involves giving money back. It is literally impossible to give money if you have not received any. As such, this is not a case of whether the seller should refund anything. They cannot refund by definition.

    Also, as Paul and Thomas have said, the number of people instantly putting in refund requests to both the affiliate and product creator after buying a WSO would open a new scam that I am sure will bloom in any case, purely because so many vendors have shown that they would be vulnerable to such an attack, within this thread.

    So I would now finish by warning anyone using this payment system to watch for double refunding. I expect there will be a lot of it over the coming weeks.
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  • Profile picture of the author Bill Guthrie
    This happened to me recently, as an affiliate:

    One of my subscribers purchased a WSO I had recommended. Due to some server issues, the product was not delivered in a timely fashion. Since MY name was on the PayPal receipt, the subscriber contacted me and demanded an immediate refund.

    (My opinion, the response was pretty reactionary, and was if he'd been scammed, when it was a matter of technology and deliverability.)

    I PM'ed the SELLER right away, giving them all details and requesting he resend the delivery email right away. In the meantime, I waited 24 hours (a reasonable time, IMO). Remember, the affiliate cannot actually handle customer service for WSOs promoted, although I do on a regular basis.

    I didn't hear back from the seller. I refunded the purchase, and 48 hours later I received a reply from the seller saying he'd resent the delivery email.

    Regardless of what side of the transaction you're on - Seller, Buyer, or Affiliate - we all have responsibilities.

    In this case, the Buyer (who was acting as if they'd be cheated from the get-go) got a free copy of a product. The Seller didn't learn anything, because I didn't go back to him and tell him his customer service sucks. And the Affiliate (me)...well I went to sleep with $9.95 less in my PayPal account but with satisfaction I'd done everything I could.

    One last note, and the OP clarified he wasn't a serial refunder or anything...but I do believe people actually put "REFUND THIS PURCHASE" on their calendars. It's amazing the refunds that come through (affiliates and my own) just around the 60 day mark. 60 days is the timeframe PayPal will allow a standard refund.

    But since the OP's thread really circles around the notion of "guarantee," I'd be curious what people think are acceptable grounds for a refund.

    All best,
    Bill
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    • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
      Unfortunately, the problem discussed here, is a problem that isn't going to go away, because of the way the "affiliate program" of choice here processes payments.

      As an affiliate, I'm constantly bombarded with support requests for products I was an affiliate on...which doesn't make any sense, but the buyer of the product thinks I'm the actual product seller because it shows their payment went to me.

      Same as a seller...the same deal. I sell a product via an affiliate who gets paid...The buyer knows I'm the vendor, so requests a refund from me...I try to contact affiliate who doesn't respond...so, I end up refunding a sale that I never got paid for.

      I've personally started testing out alternatives such as www.Jvzoo.com because they work with the adaptive payments, which stops the above from happening, and is looked upon in a better light by paypal.

      As a seller, the potential is there to seriously damage your reputation when the buyer thinks the affiliate is the vendor and they ignore requests for support or refunds, so while "change" isn't always easy, sometimes it's necessary.
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      I am absolutely dumbfounded at the number of people who, despite being shown the specifics of the process, still demand that things be done their way or they're going to pitch a fit.

      I think every person who considers doing business, whether online or off, should have to pass a simple quiz:

      Do you know the difference between "I don't like it" and "It's unethical?"

      Can you clearly explain the distinction between a lie, a mistake, and an error in judgement?

      Do you have a tendency to paint anyone who disagrees with you as a villain?


      Stuff like that. Things we should all know before we're allowed to surf the web unsupervised.


      Paul
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      • Profile picture of the author Tom B
        Banned
        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

        I am absolutely dumbfounded at the number of people who, despite being shown the specifics of the process, still demand that things be done their way or they're going to pitch a fit.

        I think every person who considers doing business, whether online or off, should have to pass a simple quiz:

        Do you know the difference between "I don't like it" and "It's unethical?"

        Can you clearly explain the distinction between a lie, a mistake, and an error in judgement?

        Do you have a tendency to paint anyone who disagrees with you as a villain?


        Stuff like that. Things we should all know before we're allowed to surf the web unsupervised.


        Paul

        You forgot " I don't like it" so it must be "illegal".
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        • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
          Q,
          You forgot " I don't like it" so it must be "illegal".
          Along with probably 30 or 40 other examples of logical deficiency...


          Paul
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        • Profile picture of the author E. Brian Rose
          Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

          You forgot " I don't like it" so it must be "illegal".
          I know of a WSO thread that fought that battle last week
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          Founder of JVZoo. All around good guy :)

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          • Profile picture of the author Tom B
            Banned
            Originally Posted by E. Brian Rose View Post

            I know of a WSO thread that fought that battle last week
            Yeah, I saw that scammer. haha
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  • Profile picture of the author dagaul101
    It's unfortunate that this escalated how it did, but it could easily have been solved
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  • Profile picture of the author linkwhizz
    Am I right in thinking that by definition it is almost impossible to police these issues anyway..

    The fact that as an international entity, the Internet is not governed by any one countries laws regarding consumer rights.

    And as stated in the warrior forum rules they do not get involved in disputes between vendors and customers.

    So really, it is just a matter of morals and opinions, which as we all know are pretty much irrelevant.

    I know in my business, if an affiliate did not honour a refund in a timely fashion I would send the customer the money. I would do this to save the reputation of my company and would not work with the affiliate again.

    However, if the reverse happened to me personally I would not expect the vendor to refund a payment they did not receive. When an affiliate takes 100% of a payment they inherit the guarantee too, at least morally.

    A perfect example of this is programs like digiresults. The payment is split equally so is refunded equally. If the affiliate takes 100% in that system they shoulder the entire refund.

    It seems to me that warriorplus is showing cracks and it's only a matter of time before it will have to change it's structure hold it's dominance in this marketplace.
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  • Profile picture of the author eskimoto
    i hear you guys but i simply do not agree with the fact that the affiliate gets paid directly, its just asking for trouble.

    big affiliate network dont allow affiliates to collect payments, and waiting times for payment are about 30 days. Why WSO affiliates cannot wait that long?


    Vendor should keep all the money for as long as the money back gurantee lasts (30-days) and then pay comission to his affiliates.

    I do understand that everyone wants to get paid quickly and get the cash now but it would be nice to have some decent standards in this industry as well where the customer is at heart of the proccess
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    • Profile picture of the author E. Brian Rose
      Originally Posted by eskimoto View Post

      i hear you guys but i simply do not agree with the fact that the affiliate gets paid directly, its just asking for trouble.
      I couldn't agree more! That is why many sellers and affiliates are switching to adaptive payment platforms.
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      • Profile picture of the author JasonParker
        Originally Posted by E. Brian Rose View Post

        I couldn't agree more! That is why many sellers and affiliates are switching to adaptive payment platforms.
        I like this solution... but let's be clear about the downsides.

        Now you have tax hassles, you're now giving up more in fees per sale, and doing 100% commissions isn't possible.
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        • Profile picture of the author Bryan Zimmerman
          Originally Posted by JasonParker View Post

          I like this solution... but let's be clear about the downsides.

          Now you have tax hassles, you're now giving up more in fees per sale, and doing 100% commissions isn't possible.

          You can still run 100% commissions no problem if there is a listing fee option that takes away the % that most adaptive payments systems run on. Instead of the %, you just pay a flat fee and 100% commissions are absolutely possible

          As far as the tax thing goes, taxes and paperwork are part of every business, for some reason (not you personally Jason, just in general) when people come online they seem to think what happens in the outside world of business doesn't apply anymore. That's a big reason why so many people fail I think. If you tried to run a real brick and mortar business like some people try to run their online business they'd be out of business in a month.

          There's a lot of people that are going to get a huge wake up call this year when PayPal reports everything to the IRS. Personally, I'd rather deal with the things I've paid people as an affiliate, use that as a write off and make the IRS stay the hell away from me. If the system is set up right with the proper forms and access, it's not a problem at all.
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          • Profile picture of the author Tom B
            Banned
            Originally Posted by Bryan Zimmerman View Post


            As far as the tax thing goes, taxes and paperwork are part of every business, for some reason (not you personally Jason, just in general) when people come online they seem to think what happens in the outside world of business doesn't apply anymore. That's a big reason why so many people fail I think. If you tried to run a real brick and mortar business like some people try to run their online business they'd be out of business in a month.

            Yeah, so? We should always try to minimize the non profitable areas of our business. That includes minimizing taxes and paper work.

            Most people fail online because they don't plan. It isn't paper work killing businesses. It is thinking more about article marketing then an actual business plan. It costs very little to set up shop online compared to offline and that makes people even more sloppy about planning.

            I have been using RAP for the past 4 years and never had a problem. I won't be changing anytime soon just because one person had a problem with one seller. This could have been avoided if each responded to each other with more respect.
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            • Profile picture of the author Bryan Zimmerman
              Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

              Yeah, so? We should always try to minimize the non profitable areas of our business. That includes minimizing taxes and paper work.
              Yea so? If it works for you, than that's all that matters for your business. But there's a lot of people that have a lot of headache with it too, not just this one person. And I don't mess with the paperwork myself, that's what I pay my accountant for.

              Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

              Most people fail online because they don't plan. It isn't paper work killing businesses. It is thinking more about article marketing then an actual business plan. It costs very little to set up shop online compared to offline and that makes people even more sloppy about planning.
              Never said it was paperwork, I said they think that when they come online all the things that go into a business that is run outside of online seem to not apply. Planning being the biggest thing. You don't see businesses in the brick and mortar world without some kind of plan, if the don't have one, it goes down quickly. However that thinking is usually right at the forefront of offline things where online it's not.

              Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

              I have been using RAP for the past 4 years and never had a problem. I won't be changing anytime soon just because one person had a problem with one seller. This could have been avoided if each responded to each other with more respect.
              And it could have been avoided by using a system that didn't present this type of problem in the first place. Nothing against RAP, Sid's a VERY smart guy and filled a very large void with it. But if we're going to talk about minimizing things that are not profitable, me dealing with a problem I could have avoided and then having to pull money out of my own pocket on top of it by doing the right thing is something I put in that category.
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              • Profile picture of the author Tom B
                Banned
                Originally Posted by Bryan Zimmerman View Post

                Yea so? If it works for you, than that's all that matters for your business. But there's a lot of people that have a lot of headache with it too, not just this one person. And I don't mess with the paperwork myself, that's what I pay my accountant for.
                Yeah, we shouldn't look at cutting down expenses like additional paperwork because we can hire others to do it. Makes sense.



                And it could have been completely avoided by using a system that didn't present this type of problem in the first place. Nothing against RAP, Sid's a smart guy and filled a very large void with it. But if we're going to talk about minimizing things that are not profitable, me dealing with a problem I could have avoided is something I put in that category.
                It could have been completely avoided with better customer support and more patience from the OP. No matter what system you use, you will have problems if those two factors come into place.

                Nothing to do with the script being used. That is unless you are going to insure the affiliate doesn't drain their paypal account leaving a refund impossible from his end.
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                • Profile picture of the author Bryan Zimmerman
                  Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

                  Yeah, we shouldn't look at cutting down expenses like additional paperwork because we can hire others to do it. Makes sense.
                  Most businesses have accountants. It's something that saves you a lot of time and allows you to focus more on the things that make you money like marketing. If you're good with that stuff, then so be it. Me it saves a ton of time and allows me to go make more money doing what I do. It's not an expense, it's an asset, so it makes perfect sense for me.



                  Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

                  . No matter what system you use, you will have problems if those two factors come into place.
                  This is true, there are always potential issues with either one.
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                  • Profile picture of the author Tom B
                    Banned
                    Originally Posted by Bryan Zimmerman View Post

                    Most businesses have accountants, it's something that saves you a lot of time that allows you to focus more on the things that make you money like marketing. If you're good with that stuff, then so be it. Me it saves me a ton of time and allows me to go make more money doing what I do. It's not an expense, it's an asset, so it makes perfect sense for me.
                    Thanks for the business education, Bryan. I have been in business for the past 7 years but always looking to learn something new. Now I know what accountants are for.

                    The whole throw the baby out with the bath water just baffles me.
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                    • Profile picture of the author Bryan Zimmerman
                      Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

                      Thanks for the business education, Bryan. I have been in business for the past 7 years but always looking to learn something new. Now I know what accountants are for.

                      The whole throw the baby out with the bath water just baffles me.

                      You're welcome, glad I could help there Thomas and if you've been in business for 7 years then I'm sure you "hiring" someone does makes perfect sense. Your sarcasm needs work though, didn't shine through like you usually do.
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                      • Profile picture of the author Tom B
                        Banned
                        Originally Posted by Bryan Zimmerman View Post

                        You're welcome, glad I could help there Thomas and if you've been in business for 7 years then I'm sure you "hiring" someone does makes perfect sense. Your sarcasm needs work though, didn't shine through like you usually do.
                        I let my head do the shining. The sarcasm was something extra.
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          • Profile picture of the author JasonParker
            Let's say you're getting 100% commissions through this system... The payment hits the vendor then it hits you. Does that mean fees will come out of both the vendor payment and affiliate payment?

            If not then that's awesome.

            ...

            By the way, I'm not saying it's not worth it. I actually like it alot that it cuts down all of my customer service. The things I don't like are the things I've mentioned.

            I have a full-time customer support person because of the old rap-like system and WSO pro... Just from being an affiliate. That's also quite an expense.



            Originally Posted by Bryan Zimmerman View Post

            You can still run 100% commissions no problem if there is a listing fee option that takes away the % that most adaptive payments systems run on. Instead of the %, you just pay a flat fee and 100% commissions are absolutely possible

            As far as the tax thing goes, taxes and paperwork are part of every business, for some reason (not you personally Jason, just in general) when people come online they seem to think what happens in the outside world of business doesn't apply anymore. That's a big reason why so many people fail I think. If you tried to run a real brick and mortar business like some people try to run their online business they'd be out of business in a month.

            There's a lot of people that are going to get a huge wake up call this year when PayPal reports everything to the IRS. Personally, I'd rather deal with the things I've paid people as an affiliate, use that as a write off and make the IRS stay the hell away from me. If the system is set up right with the proper forms and access, it's not a problem at all.
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            • Profile picture of the author Bryan Zimmerman
              Originally Posted by JasonParker View Post

              Let's say you're getting 100% commissions through this system... The payment hits the vendor then it hits you. Does that mean fees will come out of both the vendor payment and affiliate payment?

              If not then that's awesome.

              ...

              By the way, I'm not saying it's not worth it. I actually like it alot that it cuts down all of my customer service. The things I don't like are the things I've mentioned.
              Yep, if it's set up right the vendor would get the payment, pay the % that paypal takes in fee's and the affiliate would get the remainder sent to them instantly WITHOUT paying any Paypal fee's. When the vendor pays all the fee's it's much cheaper than both paying fees due to the amount paypal takes in fees from smaller transactions that are usually run on these 100% offers. They vendor is giving up 100% commissions anyway, so to them it doesn't matter and the affiliates are happy because they're not getting any fees taken out of the money that hits their account.
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              • Profile picture of the author JasonParker
                Originally Posted by Bryan Zimmerman View Post

                Yep, if it's set up right the vendor would get the payment, pay the % that paypal takes in fee's and the affiliate would get the remainder sent to them instantly WITHOUT paying any Paypal fee's. When the vendor pays all the fee's it's much cheaper than both paying fees due to the amount paypal takes in fees from smaller transactions that are usually run on these 100% offers. They vendor is giving up 100% commissions anyway, so to them it doesn't matter and the affiliates are happy because they're not getting any fees taken out of the money that hits their account.
                Rock on. I guess for me that just leaves tax headaches that I don't like and networks that take out additional fees per transaction for themselves. (why would I pay additional fees when I don't have to? For example, $1000 for 1000 units sold.)
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  • Profile picture of the author Ziki De Naim
    Read about the thread elsewhere but checking the response to Greg, I see that all of us posters are also "old-fashion" and do understand business basics.


    100% correct -no doubt about it, Best practices of any business is to firstly understand that services comes before money, serve well guarantee included and money will follow. the customer is always right and one should have get the refund immediately, even at the cost of paying it for the affiliate, I know I did it twice for keeping the affiliate as an active one (couldn't get hold of him during the guarantee period -thou I did later) and especially the customer for future businesses.


    If a seller just approve all affiliate requests to get larger exposure than this might have it's consequences and responsibility has to be taken whether it's for a refund or any other support.


    Best,
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  • Profile picture of the author Greg guitar
    Thanks a million to all of you that chimed in (some more than others). To those (especially Kay King), that encouraged me to report the vendor, thanks-I took your advice.

    It seems I left room for confusion about why I was miffed. I see that some of you think I don't want the refund unless it is given in the particular way that I demand. Why did I not simply follow the vendor's instructions, and open the Paypal dispute as he told me I had to do (if the affiliate still doesn't produce the refund)?

    Perhaps if the vendor had been helpful and straight up with me, assuring me that he would not abandon me to my own devices, should I have further problems getting my refund, I would have simply followed instructions (except the part about taking up my problem with the wrong affiliate), opening a dispute without complaining to him, but I don't like being jerked around, and then told "it's out of my hands", which is exactly what happened.

    If the vendor didn't see himself as the seller, and wanted me to go direct to the affiliate, why did he make me jump through several hoops before even mentioning the affiliate? Honestly, I'd forgotten there was one, since I might have arrived on his offer from browsing the forum.

    All I knew at first was that I'd bought his useless product, and was following his instructions to get the refund he, not the affiliate, had promised on his sales page.

    Telling someone to open a Paypal dispute with your affiliate if they fail to refund, is fine I suppose, but do it right off the bat, not after several emails and support tickets, and do NOT tell them "it's out of my hands". You made the guarantee, and you should do whatever it takes to get it for them, whether that means pressuring the affiliate, or even going out of pocket in the end if all else fails.

    Otherwise your word means nothing, and every guarantee you write should contain something like this disclaimer: "I hope the affiliate who referred you will honor this guarantee. Failing that, I actually don't stand behind it, so you should be prepared to do a chargeback, or a Paypal dispute, should the affiliate ignore you. The extent of my responsibilities will be to forward 1 email from you to the affiliate. I might do 2, but I consider it going above and beyond the call of duty."
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Greg,

      Did you email the affiliate? If you have, has it been more than 2 business days since that email, and still no refund?

      If so, contact the seller about it. Also, get in touch with Mike Lantz at WarriorPlus Support and let him know he has an affiliate who's not responding to refund requests.

      That should get things sorted out.


      Paul
      Signature
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      Stop by Paul's Pub - my little hangout on Facebook.

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  • Profile picture of the author E. Brian Rose
    Thomas, I don't think he was trying to convince you to change what is working for you. Many folks have a problem with rotating payments. Buyers often get confused as to who to contact for support, refunds, etc. There is also the risk that as an affiliate you promote something that has copyright violations, illegal content, etc. As an affiliate of a rotating system, you legally become the seller and just as much responsability lies on you, as the creator of the content.

    All you can do is weigh your options and make a decision, which it seems you have done.
    Signature

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    • Profile picture of the author Tom B
      Banned
      Originally Posted by E. Brian Rose View Post

      Thomas, I don't think he was trying to convince you to change what is working for you. Many folks have a problem with rotating payments. Buyers often get confused as to who to contact for support, refunds, etc. There is also the risk that as an affiliate you promote something that has copyright violations, illegal content, etc. As an affiliate of a rotating system, you legally become the seller and just as much responsability lies on you, as the creator of the content.

      All you can do is weigh your options and make a decision, which it seems you have done.
      I never said he was trying to get me to change.

      Never had a problem in 4 years Brian. I used and abused that script. I never had a problem with confusion either. Maybe it is because I have several ways of contacting me.

      What I am saying is it isn't the script or the payment that may be an issue. Maybe it is the way you set up your support. If you hide behind a help desk that isn't in plain site then, yeah, it will lead to a lot of problems.
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    • Profile picture of the author David Keith
      Originally Posted by E. Brian Rose View Post

      .... Buyers often get confused as to who to contact for support, refunds, etc. There is also the risk that as an affiliate you promote something that has copyright violations, illegal content, etc. As an affiliate of a rotating system, you legally become the seller and just as much responsability lies on you, as the creator of the content.

      All you can do is weigh your options and make a decision, which it seems you have done.
      this is exactly why paypal never intended their "chain payments" portion of their api to work like this.

      i have a highschool friend who is in a management position at paypal. a few months ago we were talking about situations like the OP presenter here. here is a summary of what the illustration that was used in a meeting inside paypal when discussion the way the IMers are using this feature.

      the story goes like this:

      Imagine you walk into Best Buy and purchase a stereo. For whatever reason, you decide that this stereo does not meet your expectations and since you are well within the Best Buy's return police you head down to the store to get your money back.

      As you begin to explain your story to the customer service representative at Best Buy, she is quick to point out that on the top of your reciept it clearly says "thank you for shopping at Walmart" you explain that this is somehow a mistake that you purchased the product here and that the label on the stereo even says "sold by Best Buy" but she insists wlamart is the one who has your money, so you must deal with them.

      You head over to walmart and explain the situation, and as expected their representative is quick to point out that the label on the box says "sold by Best Buy" and that your problem is with them.

      You explain they told you to deal with walmart. eventually she says that your only recourse is to file a dispute and see what happens. But you know that for a number of reasons the merchant account provider doesnt offer any refunds on stereos (replace with paypals no refunds on digital products TOS).

      Now can you see why paypal never ever intended for this feature to be used the way IMers are doing it. it not only creates confusion for their customers, but it puts paypal in the middle of sh*t they should never be in the middle of.

      now i know with certainty that paypal has contemplated adding language to the TOS that would require sellers to disclose any parties that are involved in the transaction on their sales page. They have also contemplated doing something kinda like paypal where they limit the percentage of the sale that can be "pushed" onto other accounts.

      "the point is that just because you can do something does not mean its ok to do so or even that you should do it"

      technically, and even legally, you can send spam emails in many instances from many parts of the world. however that does not make it ok, or even right to do so.

      smith and wesson sells guns everyday. and yes they can be used for violence and to do harm. but that is not why smith and wesson sells guns.

      this is just another example of many IMers not actually being business people or understanding why things in business should work a certain way.
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      • Profile picture of the author Tom B
        Banned
        Originally Posted by David Keith View Post


        this is just another example of many IMers not actually being business people or understanding why things in business should work a certain way.
        Imagine if you purchased a product and half the payment went to Best Buy and the other half went to Walmart. Walmart decides to empty Paypal and close up shop.

        How do I get my refund?
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  • Profile picture of the author Ashley Gable
    Are you telling me that if I promote a product for 100% commission I somehow retain rights to sell it? That I become the product owner?

    No.

    The product owner sold it, but gave 100% of the money to the affiliate.

    If he offered 75% commission, does that mean I have to contact the product creator for 25% and the affiliate for 75% when I want a refund?

    No again.

    Its up to the product owner to refund him the money. Whether that means tracking down the affiliate, or out of his own pocket. Its up to him however he does it, but he has to do it.

    Unless the buyer was somehow redirected to the affiliates merchant account or checkout page, he wasnt selling it.

    He was just receiving a commission.
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    • Profile picture of the author E. Brian Rose
      Originally Posted by Ashley Gable View Post


      The product owner sold it, but gave 100% of the money to the affiliate.
      That's not the way rotating payments work, which is what we have been discussing. The affiliate is paid directly by the buyer for every other sale.
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      • Profile picture of the author Bryan Zimmerman
        Originally Posted by JasonParker View Post

        Rock on. I guess for me that just leaves tax headaches that I don't like and networks that take out additional fees per transaction for themselves. (why would I pay additional fees when I don't have to? For example, $1000 for 1000 units sold.)
        If the network has a one time payment option to list the product, you don't have to pay any other fees than the normal paypal fees and can still have the other benefits.
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        • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
          Wow...what a barn burner this has turned into.

          I like Paul's responses the best...both of them.

          Here's my 2 cents on the subject, which is why I'm so glad I don't rely on
          affiliates.

          It's my product...my responsibility.

          If I hire affiliates, I'm responsible for them. If I hire idiots, shame on me. If I
          ever had an affiliate program it would be a closed one...invite only. And I'd
          ONLY invite people I knew VERY well. Too many schlock affiliates out there.

          So, if somebody buys something from me and wants a refund, it's MY
          responsibility to ACCURATELY find out who the affiliate is, let them know that
          the product has been refunded, get the money from them or have them
          issue the refund OR...if they refuse or disappear from the face of the Earth,
          remove them from my affiliate program IMMEDIATELY.

          It's my business. I'm responsible.

          If you go to a Sears and the salesman is a jerk, it's still the owner's
          responsibility to fire him, if such action is warranted.

          You hire...YOUR responsibility.

          Having said all that, I think the WSO Pro system, in this regard, leaves
          room for too many problems as others like Johnny have pointed out.

          Yes, it can be messy.

          But I'm still the boss and the buck stops here.

          That's why I stay away from stuff like this because I don't need the tsuris.
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      • Profile picture of the author Ashley Gable
        Originally Posted by E. Brian Rose View Post

        That's not the way rotating payments work, which is what we have been discussing. The affiliate is paid directly by the buyer for every other sale.
        Oh I see, I didnt catch that. I did mention that in my post, that if the buyer paid the affiliate directly, it would be a different matter.

        But if this was the case, wouldn't the receipt and all that stuff, be relative to the "seller"?

        If so, then it would seem fairly easy to contact him directly.
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        • Profile picture of the author E. Brian Rose
          Originally Posted by Ashley Gable View Post

          I would still think it would be up to the product owner (if he hasnt sold resell rights) to sort out refunds, no matter what course that is.
          That's why adaptive payments are better. With adaptive payments, all money from the buyer goes directly to the seller. PayPal then instantly sends the the commission from the seller to the affiliate. Refunds are all handled by the seller. The buyer never knows anything about the affiliate. I prefer this a lot more over rotating payments.
          Signature

          Founder of JVZoo. All around good guy :)

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          • Profile picture of the author Ashley Gable
            Originally Posted by E. Brian Rose View Post

            That's why adaptive payments are better. With adaptive payments, all money from the buyer goes directly to the seller. PayPal then instantly sends the the commission from the seller to the affiliate. Refunds are all handled by the seller. The buyer never knows anything about the affiliate. I prefer this a lot more over rotating payments.
            Yes that sounds like a much better way to go.

            I dont use affiliates, so not my area of expertise. But rotating payments sounds more like an incentive for potential affiliates, then a sound payment/affiliate method.
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          • Profile picture of the author Tom B
            Banned
            Originally Posted by E. Brian Rose View Post

            That's why adaptive payments are better. With adaptive payments, all money from the buyer goes directly to the seller. PayPal then instantly sends the the commission from the seller to the affiliate. Refunds are all handled by the seller. The buyer never knows anything about the affiliate. I prefer this a lot more over rotating payments.

            Brian, wasn't there a scam going around where the affiliate would purchase from the seller using a stolen card, get the commission and then refund or charge back?
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            • Profile picture of the author E. Brian Rose
              Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

              Brian, wasn't there a scam going around where the affiliate would purchase from the seller using a stolen card, get the commission and then refund or charge back?
              Haven't heard about that in particular, but the same scam could done with rotating payments or just about any other type of affiliate system. A dilligent platform operator is the key to squashing credit card frauds of any type early, rather than later.
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              • Profile picture of the author Tom B
                Banned
                Originally Posted by E. Brian Rose View Post

                Haven't heard about that, but the same scam could done with rotating payments or just about any other type of affiliate system. A dilligent platform operator is the key to squashing credit card frauds of any type early, rather than later.

                I thought it was a problem with the adaptive payments. It wouldn't affect the rotating payments since payments don't go through the seller. It would in the adaptive payments since the seller takes in payments first.

                One of the reasons I am hesitant about using that platform.

                That is why I asked because I do see the benefits of adaptive payments but would like to know the negatives before trying it out.
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  • Profile picture of the author thehypnoguy
    If you just looked at your Paypal Receipt for the product you bought you would have known instantly who to approach for a refund. Just because affiliates get 100% of the money doesn't mean they get to keep it if someone requests a refund. The name of the affiliate was on your receipt.

    Martin
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  • Profile picture of the author E. Brian Rose
    Thomas, I know that Digiresults and JVZoo have addressed the issue of possible scam affiliates by implimenting an application and vetting process for affiliates. Warrior Plus even has an approval process for affiliates, so it is something that effects rotating payments and adaptive payments.
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    Founder of JVZoo. All around good guy :)

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  • Profile picture of the author sgoerger
    If the Seller can't afford the $10 needed to create this refund and quickly dash something that has obviously become a problem for him or her (at least with you, and esp. if you hadn't bit your tongue about who it is), then they won't be around long enough to bother too many people, anyways. Though it does suck for you.
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  • Profile picture of the author Johnny Slater
    If I've said it once I've said it a thousand times, adaptive payments doesn't just work one way.

    Adaptive payments has 3 options, one if which is rotating between the seller and affiliate for the full price, just as the rotating payment systems. There is no difference in the two other than one uses IPN and one uses the API.

    Adaptive payments is very powerful and can be used in many more ways than what the IM world has currently put into place.
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    • Profile picture of the author Tom B
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Johnny Slater View Post

      There is no difference in the two other than one uses IPN and one uses the API.

      Johnny, under this scenario, does the seller still have the authority to issue a refund without having to go through the affiliates? Meaning, does the money still get sent to the seller first or does it work exactly the same as RAP and Wafo Plus?
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      • Profile picture of the author Johnny Slater
        It depends on how your system is set up Thomas.

        The API can work in different ways.

        1) Seller takes full payment and then PayPal will split that payment and send the affiliate his cut.

        2) Seller and affiliate each get a portion of the payment.

        3) Payment is rotated between seller and affiliate. For an affiliate sale the seller doesn't recieve any money.

        With option 1 and 2 in the case of a refund Seller can process the refund and the money will be removed from both the seller and affiliate Paypal accounts to process the refund. The issue here is if the affiliate has cleaned out their account then the buyer only gets a partial refund. These two options have their own set of problems where refunds are handled.

        Also, with option 2 at checkout the buyer will see a list of all parties who will recieve part of the payment.

        With option 3 it would work just like RAP or WSO Pro. The buyer would have to request the refund from the person they actually paid, and that may not be the seller.

        Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

        Johnny, under this scenario, does the seller still have the authority to issue a refund without having to go through the affiliates? Meaning, does the money still get sent to the seller first or does it work exactly the same as RAP and Wafo Plus?
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        • Profile picture of the author Tom B
          Banned
          Originally Posted by Johnny Slater View Post

          It depends on how your system is set up Thomas.

          The API can work in different ways.

          1) Seller takes full payment and then PayPal will split that payment and send the affiliate his cut.

          2) Seller and affiliate each get a portion of the payment.

          3) Payment is rotated between seller and affiliate. For an affiliate sale the seller doesn't recieve any money.

          With option 1 and 2 in the case of a refund Seller can process the refund and the money will be removed from both the seller and affiliate Paypal accounts to process the refund. The issue here is if the affiliate has cleaned out their account then the buyer only gets a partial refund. These two options have their own set of problems where refunds are handled.

          Also, with option 2 at checkout the buyer will see a list of all parties who will recieve part of the payment.

          With option 3 it would work just like RAP or WSO Pro. The buyer would have to request the refund from the person they actually paid, and that may not be the seller.
          Thanks Johnny!

          I think there will always be a risk problem when it comes to paying out affiliates at the time of the sale. The incentives to get the affiliates to promote more and thus make us more sales should outweight the risk.

          Kind of like dealing with serial refunders when offering a guarantee. The guarantee should make us more money in the long run.

          This is great info for an upcoming project of mine. Many thanks for all the info.
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  • Profile picture of the author E. Brian Rose
    Thomas, I can answer that. If it is implemented properly by the platform operator, then the answer is yes. The seller should always be able to click a button and issue a refund with adaptive payments.
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    • Profile picture of the author Tom B
      Banned
      Originally Posted by E. Brian Rose View Post

      Thomas, I can answer that. If it is implemented properly by the platform operator, then the answer is yes. The seller should always be able to click a button and issue a refund with adaptive payments.
      Now you got me interested. Thanks!

      Greg, thanks for starting this thread. I learned some great stuff. haha
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      • Profile picture of the author Greg guitar
        Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

        Now you got me interested. Thanks!

        Greg, thanks for starting this thread. I learned some great stuff. haha
        You're welcome. I'm shocked to see my name in a friendly post from you, but I like it.
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  • Profile picture of the author E. Brian Rose
    Another advantage is that you can have a JV partner for a product. If you and another guy are co-creators of a product, you can designate a percntage of the net revenue to be paid instantly to your partner. This is not an automatic feature of adaptive payments, but one that can be implemented by the platform operator. JVZoo has this feature. ClickBank does too (not adaptive pyments, but they now have the JV feature).
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    Founder of JVZoo. All around good guy :)

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    • Profile picture of the author Johnny Slater
      Yep, Adaptive payments API can do many things that just using the IPN method can't do. It had the posibility to create a very powerful payment platform.

      The only downside I have seen with the API is last time I checked it didn't do subscriptions, although that could have changed by now, and that it didn't give you as much info about the buyer as the IPN method does.

      Originally Posted by E. Brian Rose View Post

      Another advantage is that you can have a JV partner for a product. If you and another guy are co-creators of a product, you can designate a percntage of the net revenue to be paid instantly to your partner. This is not an automatic feature of adaptive payments, but one that can be implemented by the platform operator. JVZoo has this feature. ClickBank does too (not adaptive pyments, but they now have the JV feature).
      Signature

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