$600 worth of Clickbank refunds this month. Sick of it.

182 replies
I know for some that may not seem like such a big deal, but I'm sick of it. I've quite literally had enough of Clickbanks immediate, no questions asked refund policy, and I am now actively working towards shifting my products to physical format where possible and using an alternate payment processor.

Dont get me wrong, I love Clickbank, (well did) they've always paid on time, and offered great support, but as a vendor I think they have some serious issues that need to be addressed - the biggest of course being INTENTIONAL REFUNDERS.

Ive lost $600 in sales this month due to refund requests, and ALL of them have been processed in just MINUTES after the transaction was completed.

Had another one today, processed just 3 minutes after purchase.

Its extremely frustrating as a vendor that I cannot dispute what is OBVIOUSLY an intentional refund request.

Im absolutely sick and tired of this.

Clickbank, you need to introduce payment disputes or some other alternative that prevents this BS from happening.
#$600 #clickbank #month #refunds #sick #worth
  • Profile picture of the author Rsberg
    its a double edged sword...

    The only thing that will make CB take notice and do somehting is affiliates walking away from them...in mass.

    The problem with that is a lot of affiliates are still making decent money with them, even after the serial refunders sap thier profits.
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  • Profile picture of the author Daniel Wilson
    If you offer a refund you shouldn't rant about it when it happens. I get refunds after 1 month for my WSO, but what can I do? The less time you waste on thinking about it the better.

    Does clickbank force you to have a refund policy?
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    • Profile picture of the author Rsberg
      Originally Posted by Daniel Wilson View Post

      Does clickbank force you to have a refund policy?
      The issue here isn't about an affiliate offering refunds on a site that they are promoting a CB product...thats not what the OP is talking about.

      CB refunds as soon as someone asks for one...and the affiliate has no recourse to stop it (shy of not promoting CB products).
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      • Profile picture of the author monk37
        That is quite a lot of refunds, but I know what you mean about being a vendor with Clickbank. One chap who bought a one of my products through Clickbank got extra help from me nearly every day for six weeks and then had the cheek to request a no quibble refund after 40 days of mentoring. It is frustrating being a vendor for Clickbank and better sticking with affiliation.
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    • Profile picture of the author John Romaine
      Originally Posted by Rsberg View Post

      its a double edged sword...

      The only thing that will make CB take notice and do somehting is affiliates walking away from them...in mass.

      The problem with that is a lot of affiliates are still making decent money with them, even after the serial refunders sap thier profits.
      Im not an affiliate, but Im sure my affiliates will be annoyed once they see Im no longer registered with Clickbank. I think if vendors leave, that would do more damage than affiliates, because without vendors, affiliates have nothing to promote.

      Anyway, Im sure they're not concerned with me leaving, or a dozen other vendors for that matter, so it's probably a pointless argument.

      Originally Posted by Daniel Wilson View Post

      If you offer a refund you shouldn't rant about it when it happens. I get refunds after 1 month for my WSO, but what can I do? The less time you waste on thinking about it the better.

      Does clickbank force you to have a refund policy?
      Daniel, this is my livelihood. I wouldn't normally be so concerned about it, but the problem seems to be worsening. To the point now where when I do make a sale, I immediately wait for the refund request to come through. Its ridiculous.

      Clickbank enforces a no questions asked 60 day refund, which they're entitled to do, Im not arguing that point at all. But for me now as a vendor, I need to ask myself...

      "Is this a viable long term business model, or is this going to continue to worsen to the point of me having to go back to a 9-5 job."

      Id rather investigate alternatives then "spend less time worrying about it"
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      • Profile picture of the author Dan Bainbridge
        Originally Posted by ramone_johnny View Post

        Im not an affiliate, but Im sure my affiliates will be annoyed once they see Im no longer registered with Clickbank. I think if vendors leave, that would do more damage than affiliates, because without vendors, affiliates have nothing to promote.

        Anyway, Im sure they're not concerned with me leaving, or a dozen other vendors for that matter, so it's probably a pointless argument.
        We are one of their top 200 vendors and we JUST left CB the other week, so maybe they will start to listen.

        But rather than refunds being an issue (our refund rate is 2-3%) we left due to a lack of control, limited ability to contact affiliates, ZERO control over the checkout process.. and other reasons

        Originally Posted by ramone_johnny View Post

        To the point now where when I do make a sale, I immediately wait for the refund request to come through. Its ridiculous.
        .......
        "Is this a viable long term business model, or is this going to continue to worsen to the point of me having to go back to a 9-5 job."

        Id rather investigate alternatives then "spend less time worrying about it"
        You're not going to like this, but refund rate still is largely a factor YOU can control... this is your issue, not just Clickbanks...

        Fair play, on CB your refund rate will always be higher as of the issues you've mentioned, but other people even in forex and IM have less than 20% and even less than 10% refund rates... by aiming for top quality you can reduce your refund rate... now it's easy to get defensive, but if you are "just waiting for refunds immediately" as standard then there is something wrong..

        I can only tell you this as a stranger... as a friend I'd pat you on the back and tell you to leave CB... but you do have more control than you think - for a start you could contact all the people who refunded and ask them why.... only 10% will answer you, but those 10% will have your solution
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      • Profile picture of the author Bill Farnham
        Originally Posted by ramone_johnny View Post

        Daniel, this is my livelihood. I wouldn't normally be so concerned about it, but the problem seems to be worsening. To the point now where when I do make a sale, I immediately wait for the refund request to come through. Its ridiculous.
        Johnny,

        I feel for ya bro, but one thing is pert near certain...immediate refunds are not a loss of dollars, they're a loss of ones and zeros, as in binary bits.

        It's extremely tempting to think that those refunds could have survived as real dollars in your bank account, but if you really think about it, those purchasers (theives?) never really intended to make a purchase. They simply wanted whatever product it was for free.

        Bottom line...without the availabilty of instant refunds no activity in your CB account would have occurred. Those were mythical sales from the get-go but the system reports them as normal sales.

        It's almost a shame the system isn't on a 24 hour delay where those mythical sales never have the chance to cause the anguish they do. Because if they never showed up in your stats you'd never be led to believe you LOST money. Because in most cases you didn't, you just lost a bunch of ones and zeros, not a genuine sale.

        And guess where the fix for that problem is...it's right between your ears. As cold as this sounds, you need to get thick skinned about those refunds. Because becoming gun shy about sales is self defeating and will slow your growth. Keep your eyes on the prize and learn to accept the garbage as a cost of doing business. Because it is.

        ~Bill
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      • This is the second thread I've seen related to this today. Seems to be a serious issue. $600 is completely ridiculous.
        One would think they would implement some sort of review system where they check if the same credit card has been used to claim a refund in the past with anything more than 2 in a week etc. raising an alert.
        It's in their own interest to sort this out before all their vendors jump ship.
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      • Profile picture of the author .X.
        I hear you Johnny.

        You might also consider switching your CB
        products to physical options only.

        We *added* a physical product option and
        we're considering getting rid of digital DLs,
        although there is still demand in our
        niche for a "green" option.

        Our refund rate on physical products is a
        fraction. I'd say 1 physical refund to every
        10 digital.

        You could have the best of both worlds -
        stick with Clickbank but get rid of a lot of
        the trash.

        The other thing, you have to accept certain
        markets have trash. The WSO forum isn't
        much better - so you have to accept that
        although the market is good you're going to
        have a high level of customer waste with it.

        You'll reach more good customers, but you'll
        reach more bad customers too.

        And just because I know some overly sensitive
        ninny is going to whine about it - good people
        sometimes refund and I don't want to be
        confused with a Frank Bruno type. We all
        know we're talking about people who buy with
        the *intent* to refund because it's easy - not
        people who have a legitimate cause for the
        request.

        All the best to you - X

        PS - Everyone needs to also understand that
        Clickbank considers every customer a Clickbank
        customer - they really don't care about you or
        your product. They care about making their
        money and taking care of the merchant accounts -
        they aren't going to change.
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    • Profile picture of the author TheJustWarrior
      Originally Posted by Daniel Wilson View Post

      If you offer a refund you shouldn't rant about it when it happens. I get refunds after 1 month for my WSO, but what can I do? The less time you waste on thinking about it the better.

      Does clickbank force you to have a refund policy?
      I dont think not having a refund policy changes things.

      The fact is we are part of an industry and we are the leaders of this industry to a great extent. By giving up easily to refunders we are sending a message that its ok and easy to refund for products that are not tangible.

      Making it a difficult thing for refunders to get there money back AFTER they have already acknowledged, that they received A, B, and bonus C then it is important to resist the temptation to just roll over.

      Your first reaction to a refund request should be to establish that they did indeed get a and b and c...only then should you talk further.

      Too many vendors are worried about chargeback rates and refunds. But that very "roll over" behavior encourages the flippant refunding practice.

      We are jelling as a community here and the culture is definitely to refund on a dime.

      Frankly its un ustainable long term and will eventually hail the ruin of the "knowledge" industry. ei likes of paypal just dont accept immediate download products anymore, others follow.

      Actually would be a good wso...cure refunditis.
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  • Profile picture of the author dave147
    It is a bit too easy for "Intentional Refunders" over at CB but that's part of the CB business model...at least the refunds weren't chargebacks YET!
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  • Profile picture of the author dragonblogger
    I only affiliate 2 products on Clickbank and only had 1 return in 11 sales, I don't like many of the programs or target websites, all seem spammy to me. One thing is I only ever sell a product I fully review tested and make sure I would think is worth spending my own money on.

    Dan has a good suggestion, find out why they requested refund or hated the product could give you insight and possibly share that with the seller (if they care).
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  • Profile picture of the author Kelly Verge
    Originally Posted by ramone_johnny View Post

    Ive lost $600 in sales this month due to refund requests, and ALL of them have been processed in just MINUTES after the transaction was completed.
    Nope.

    If Clickbank didn't do refunds like they do, you wouldn't have made any of these "sales." All of those were people who gamed the system to get your product for free.

    You lost several copies of your product to thieves. You didn't lose any sales.

    (Guess Bill and I are on the same page - and were typing at the same time.)
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  • Profile picture of the author Praveen Kumar
    I think one of the most important thing for these type of refund rate might be the product you're promoting obviously IT Over-Promise and Under-Deliver , So you really need to be careful at niche selection especially at product selection.

    Thanks

    Praveen Kumar
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    • Profile picture of the author iaffiliatehq
      Originally Posted by Praveen Kumar View Post

      I think one of the most important thing for these type of refund rate might be the product you're promoting obviously IT Over-Promise and Under-Deliver , So you really need to be careful at niche selection especially at product selection.

      Thanks

      Praveen Kumar
      You wrote the words right out of my mouth. Always researching.... We buy (test) tons of products from lots of sources - including CB - and find very few are worth the time it took to click the mouse. (but never ask for a refund) You wrote, "Over-Promised and Under-Delivered" and unfortunately that is too often too true..... Oh but we love the rare gem that comes along.

      To Your Success!!
      ----Maria
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  • Profile picture of the author Andy Money
    Tons of reasons this happens unfortunately, not really exclusive to ClickBank at all. PM me if you want something that has practically a 0% refund (not in MMO niche though, sorry).

    It's either the product/offer or your traffic is bad (for whatever reason, i.e. source, not pre-selling properly, etc.)
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    • Profile picture of the author Colin Palfrey
      Originally Posted by Andrew Maule View Post

      PM me if you want something that has practically a 0% refund (not in MMO niche though, sorry).
      This is bordering on spam. Consider yourself warned.

      You clearly didn't read the OP so didn't realise he was a vendor not an affiliate and so you are trying to peddle him your *cough-crap-cough*

      Next time expect me to click the report and infraction buttons. Don't worry this post will soon get lost in the WF but hopefully the message that people are watching won't.
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  • Profile picture of the author vtotheyouknow
    I hear your frustration mate...

    Is it possible that most of those people wouldn't have bought your product if they knew they couldn't take advantage of you?
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  • Profile picture of the author Jay Wessman
    It's just part of the game if you ask me. Sure, non-tangible info products will lead to more refunds than a physical product but at the same time we don't have to pay for (or hold) stock or deal with shipping costs and effort.

    I sell products on ClickBank and don't find my refunds to be excessive at all... perhaps around 3-4%. If you're product is genuinely packed with quality material than people generally seem to be happy to pay.

    A good way to keep your refund rates down is to offer some kind of ongoing support (even if it's as simple as saying "email me if you need any help/advice!") or an ongoing service (like a membership your niche related forum or something) so that people will be even less likely to cancel. These types of things also make for excellent "Bonuses" that you can add to your sales pitch, boosting your conversion rate at the same time.
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    • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
      Banned
      Johnny,

      I'm curious ...

      Are your ClickBank refunds tied to/associated with particular affiliates (and if so, have you managed to see how they're promoting your product?), or are they apparently completely random? :confused:

      Are they, in fact, affiliate-referred sales at all? (Or might it be that the product for some reason has a significant refund-rate when not "pre-sold" by affiliates?). :confused:

      Is it a niche notorious for having a higher-than-average refund-rate? :confused:

      Only if you want to answer ... I appreciate that you may well not, of course.
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      • Profile picture of the author koolphoto
        I don't understand all the complaining about returns of digital products.

        Correct me if I am wrong but there is no physical cost involved with returns. There is no postage, no restocking and even no packaging.

        And, what is the problem with a serial returner? Really who cares? Maybe it might piss you off a little but to me that is the only down side. Maybe they let friends read your material. Again, there is not much you can do with it and it certainly doesn't warrant getting yourself into a tizzy over it.

        Hopefully, you get more sales then returns. So you are making a profit. Have you ever thought how many sales you get because there is a good return policy? I bet you would lose sales if customers didn't feel they could return it without problems. So you might be earning less then what you are making minus the returns.

        Look at physical product sales such as with department stores. In the US, Walmart, Kmart, Target, most department stores and even Mom and Pop shops have a if you don't like it you can return it return policy. And these stores have a restocking or sometimes a repackaging cost attributed to those returns. Yet they give this unconditional guarantee because they understand the benefit of customer goodwill and how much more money they can make.

        I myself am reluctant to shop without a good guarantee. I think you will find that most customers will also be reluctant to buy without the money back policy. That is why I think it is better to have it and not worry about returns or serial returners.
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        • Profile picture of the author biffula
          Originally Posted by koolphoto View Post

          I don't understand all the complaining about returns of digital products.

          Correct me if I am wrong but there is no physical cost involved with returns. There is no postage, no restocking and even no packaging.

          And, what is the problem with a serial returner? Really who cares? Maybe it might piss you off a little but to me that is the only down side. Maybe they let friends read your material. Again, there is not much you can do with it and it certainly doesn't warrant getting yourself into a tizzy over it.

          Hopefully, you get more sales then returns. So you are making a profit. Have you ever thought how many sales you get because there is a good return policy? I bet you would lose sales if customers didn't feel they could return it without problems. So you might be earning less then what you are making minus the returns.

          Look at physical product sales such as with department stores. In the US, Walmart, Kmart, Target, most department stores and even Mom and Pop shops have a if you don't like it you can return it return policy. And these stores have a restocking or sometimes a repackaging cost attributed to those returns. Yet they give this unconditional guarantee because they understand the benefit of customer goodwill and how much more money they can make.

          I myself am reluctant to shop without a good guarantee. I think you will find that most customers will also be reluctant to buy without the money back policy. That is why I think it is better to have it and not worry about returns or serial returners.
          Just because it's a digital product doesn't mean it's not theft. One has time and money invested in getting the digital product to market just the same. And when brick and mortar stores give you a refund, they get the product back. A digital marketer doesn't. So there's a big difference.

          You're not a very good business person if you don't see this.
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          • Profile picture of the author John Romaine
            Thanks everyone for sharing their thoughts and opinions. Its great to see a balanced viewpoint on this, which I anticipated.

            I'll make some comments in response to some of the replies given below.

            Originally Posted by Dan Bainbridge View Post

            We are one of their top 200 vendors and we JUST left CB the other week, so maybe they will start to listen.
            Thanks Dan. Where are you guys heading now?

            Originally Posted by Dan Bainbridge View Post

            You're not going to like this, but refund rate still is largely a factor YOU can control... this is your issue, not just Clickbanks...

            Fair play, on CB your refund rate will always be higher as of the issues you've mentioned, but other people even in forex and IM have less than 20% and even less than 10% refund rates... by aiming for top quality you can reduce your refund rate... now it's easy to get defensive, but if you are "just waiting for refunds immediately" as standard then there is something wrong..

            I can only tell you this as a stranger... as a friend I'd pat you on the back and tell you to leave CB... but you do have more control than you think - for a start you could contact all the people who refunded and ask them why.... only 10% will answer you, but those 10% will have your solution
            You're right on all points and I agree. My refund rates are usually VERY low (around 2%, but this month has seen a sudden increase for no apparent reason). Lastly, I do always contact refunders and ask them why they filed the request, or if there is any way I can assist them to preserve the sale (if at all possible)

            Its at this point it usually becomes very clear who is genuine and who isnt. Those that make honest mistakes will typically reply with ...

            "Oh Im sorry John, I thought I was buying a physical product" OR
            "John, I accidentally purchased the wrong product, it was your other one that I wanted.."

            Whereas serial refunders, will usually reply with a short, and somewhat abrupt response...

            "Dont like it"
            "Give me my money back"

            They often then refuse to respond or provide feedback at all.

            Originally Posted by Kelly Verge View Post

            You lost several copies of your product to thieves. You didn't lose any sales.
            So I'm just to accept this?

            Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

            Johnny,

            I'm curious ...

            Are your ClickBank refunds tied to/associated with particular affiliates (and if so, have you managed to see how they're promoting your product?), or are they apparently completely random? :confused:

            Are they, in fact, affiliate-referred sales at all? (Or might it be that the product for some reason has a significant refund-rate when not "pre-sold" by affiliates?). :confused:

            Is it a niche notorious for having a higher-than-average refund-rate? :confused:

            Only if you want to answer ... I appreciate that you may well not, of course.
            Alexa, some great questions here, and thanks for asking

            My sales are random, in that no, theyre not associated with any particular affilates, AFAIK. I would have to double check, but many of them have been regular sales, in that I receive the entire amount processed. (I offer 50% to affiliates)

            No these products arent in a niche that its renound for having higher refund rates, although having not sold in the MMO niches that you often mention, I dont know how my niches compare. As said, my refunds are usually very low (2-3%) I am selling to web savvy individuals though - seo consultants, web designers etc. Not sure how much of a difference or impact that could have.

            Originally Posted by Global Warrior View Post

            To the OP, Im not sure if this scenario is the case with you...
            No its not, at least I certainly hope not. I make every effort to avoid the BS. Infact, I hate it as much as anyone, so I dont pull slick sales pages and promise a back massage and dancing girls to anyone. I sell legitimate products that HELP PEOPLE. I make that very clear in my product description pages.

            Originally Posted by Adam Roy View Post

            It doesn't take that long to realize you didn't get what you paid for.
            You're probably right to an extent, but Im pretty certain that anyone filing a refund request on a product that offers 120 contract templates and business documents along with a 200 page business guide knows EXACTLY what they are doing. Theres no way on EARTH you could possibly come to a conclusion on a product that comprehensive in just 3 minutes.

            Especially given that it would take a few minutes to

            a) Download the product
            b) Access it (if these morons are at all)
            c) File the actual refund request.

            Its BS.

            Originally Posted by timpears View Post

            There is nothing you can do about the refunders.
            Of course there is, and I intend on finding a solution. Im going to test a number of things, then Ill be sure to share it with everyone here.

            Saying that "there is nothing you can do" to me, is a defeatist mindset. Not having it.

            Originally Posted by TheJustWarrior View Post

            It is absolutely ridiculous that you can assess the full detailed product in 3 minutes.
            Agreed, thank you.

            Originally Posted by biffula View Post

            Just because it's a digital product doesn't mean it's not theft. One has time and money invested in getting the digital product to market just the same. And when brick and mortar stores give you a refund, they get the product back. A digital marketer doesn't. So there's a big difference.

            You're not a very good business person if you don't see this.
            This is exactly my thinking too.

            Of course the overheads are very different, but the principle should remain. If you request a refund, the product should be returned, in exchange for your money.

            I had a refund request from someone yesterday who claimed ...

            "I dont understand this, its too complicated.."

            So I facebooked his email address. Turns out he was an interenet marketer/web developer/programmer. Needless to say, I wasnt impressed.

            In summary, I guess my issue isnt with Clickbank, because, as its been pointed out, regardless of any payment processor, this issue will remain. My issue is giving away or LOSING the product, without payment.

            I dont know, perhaps digital products arent for me. I enjoy the automation, but it would be nice to actually have the product "returned" if the customer feels its unsuitable.

            Hopefully physical products will prove to be a solution.

            For what its worth, I may yet be staying with Clickbank, just changing my product format.

            http://www.clickbank.com/help/vendor...ippable-media/
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    • Profile picture of the author TheJustWarrior
      Originally Posted by Jay Wessman View Post

      It's just part of the game if you ask me. Sure, non-tangible info products will lead to more refunds than a physical product but at the same time we don't have to pay for (or hold) stock or deal with shipping costs and effort.

      I sell products on ClickBank and don't find my refunds to be excessive at all... perhaps around 3-4%. If you're product is genuinely packed with quality material than people generally seem to be happy to pay.

      A good way to keep your refund rates down is to offer some kind of ongoing support (even if it's as simple as saying "email me if you need any help/advice!") or an ongoing service (like a membership your niche related forum or something) so that people will be even less likely to cancel. These types of things also make for excellent "Bonuses" that you can add to your sales pitch, boosting your conversion rate at the same time.

      Well said Jay, BTW is that plant in your avatar genuine? its kinda huge
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  • Profile picture of the author Adam Roy
    I really dislike threads like these.

    1 - I'm a clickbank vendor, selling products in the IM niche, all of my WSOs are also publicly available on clickbank. My refund rates are extremely low, less than 3% across the board. In fact I had higher refund rates when using paypal.

    2 - If you are dealing with serial refunders, CALL CLICKBANK and they will take action on them. In case you missed their recent announcement, users with a history of serial refunding can have their ability to purchase clickbank products revoked.

    You have to do something about the problem not just let it get to you, get mad and come post threads like this on the warrior forum.

    Here's the phone number for clickbank, 1-800-390-6035

    Call them and voice your problems, you might just experience a sigh of relief when you realize they're actually great people willing to help you and they're serious about taking action on serial refunders who just want products for free.

    You make it sound like it's clickbank's fault you've got serial refunders buying your stuff, not the case, the same thing happens with any other processor when you offer a refund guarantee. Same thing will happen with paypal, 2checkout, alertpay, or whatever else you're using.

    If you choose NOT to offer a refund guarantee, don't use clickbank, and get ready to make LESS sales because prospects feel more comfortable purchasing a product backed by a guarantee from the vendor.
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  • Profile picture of the author Global Warrior
    Hi

    Id like to give you the "other" side of the argument, because i have been on it. I have cancelled a few times within minutes and here's why:

    The products you are marketing have a video, they have hype. They promise some guru is giving up his secret etc etc etc, whatever, the usual sales page stuff, but without exception, every product i have asked to be refunded almost instantly, has been a product that has refused to tell you what it actually is in the sales presentation.

    Sure the sales page says its going to make me $375,000 a second or a minute. It tells me there are only 17 licences left. The guy in the video shows me mansions and planes and whatever....... BUT........He never actually tells you what it is he is selling you and the only way you can find out is to actually buy the product and guess what, when you do its another 3 clicks and we'll make you websites that will be stuffed with adsense ads, optimised for seo, link building, auto blogging etc etc and will produce 50,000 sites a minute..... all "authority" sites etc etc

    Now, if the sales page had said it was trying to sell me some BS software that will do the above, i wouldn't have bothered buying it, because i know its BS and it wont work. But the sales copy doesn't say that. The sales letter and video spend 15 minutes selling a dream but don't describe what it is they are selling.... and then if you do buy, you realise there is NO WAY IN HELL, the BS you have just bought will realise your dreams. You appreciate it will only help the guys dreams that sold it to you because its BS and therefore, INSTANT REFUND and i hope it costs someone money when i have asked for an instant refund because only then, maybe, will people will stop promoting BS software that is only designed to make the guy thats promoting it or selling it money, NOT the guy that bought it, (which is what the sales letter promised after all)

    To the OP, Im not sure if this scenario is the case with you and i haven't written this to get into an argument, i just wanted to admit that before i started making money online, i may have been one of those instant refunders and the reason why is presented above.

    Hope that helps

    All the best

    GW
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    • Profile picture of the author Bill Farnham
      Originally Posted by ramone_johnny View Post

      Had another one today, processed just 3 minutes after purchase.
      Originally Posted by Global Warrior View Post

      To the OP, Im not sure if this scenario is the case with you and i haven't written this to get into an argument, i just wanted to admit that before i started making money online, i may have been one of those instant refunders and the reason why is presented above.
      I'm always baffled by how someone can determine the value of a product in 3 minutes.

      3 minutes.

      Did I mention this always baffles me?

      ~Bill
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      • Profile picture of the author Adam Roy
        Originally Posted by Bill Farnham View Post

        I'm always baffled by how someone can determine the value of a product in 3 minutes.

        3 minutes.

        Did I mention this always baffles me?

        ~Bill
        Is it really baffling that people ask for a refund immediately after purchase when the seller doesn't even clearly tell you what they're selling?

        It doesn't take that long to realize you didn't get what you paid for.

        Say you go to best buy, there's a mystery video game for sale. The box says the game is awesome, addicting, and full of excitement, anybody will love it...but they don't tell you what the game is actually about...

        You buy the game and you hate it, it's boring and is nothing like what you were expecting when you read the package, will you ask for a refund? How long will it take you to realize the video game you just bought is no good to you and doesn't live up to what it says on the package?
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        • Profile picture of the author Bill Farnham
          Originally Posted by Adam Roy View Post

          Is it really baffling that people ask for a refund immediately after purchase when the seller doesn't even clearly tell you what they're selling?

          It doesn't take that long to realize you didn't get what you paid for.
          Who are these people that buy products "when the seller doesn't even clearly tell you what they're selling"?

          Now I'm even more baffled...:confused:

          ~Bill
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          • Profile picture of the author dave147
            Originally Posted by Bill Farnham View Post

            Who are these people that buy products "when the seller doesn't even clearly tell you what they're selling"?

            Now I'm even more baffled...:confused:

            ~Bill
            lol...or...who are these people that can sell a "mystery" product?
            Is it just great sales techniques.......
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            • Profile picture of the author mrjosco
              Originally Posted by dave147 View Post

              lol...or...who are these people that can sell a "mystery" product?
              Is it just great sales techniques.......
              With over 2500 posts I would think you have traveled the internet a little more. These people that can sell a "mystery" product are EVERYWHERE. Heck, there are a lot on Warrior Forum.

              "How I made $100,000 in 6 months with this SECRET TECHNIQUE"

              "Make xxx per day with this undiscovered secret"

              And then they tell you that they tried all the 'regular' stuff, but never had success. Finally they found a rarely used, mystery method that generates them big bucks on auto pilot.

              To find out what there secret is, all you have to do is buy.

              Then you buy and the product tells you "find a need and fill it" or "Sell something for more than it costs".

              When I was 18 years old I bought a few of these products. I never returned them. I figured the cost of the product was my 'sucker' fee. But I could of returned them. They were garbage.

              Of course, like was said here - me buying them said a lot about myself too!

              These mystery products are common. And they sell.

              Is this really something you are unaware of, or are you just being difficult?

              If you need more examples, just check out the WSOs that are available.
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          • Profile picture of the author Adam Roy
            Originally Posted by Bill Farnham View Post

            Who are these people that buy products "when the seller doesn't even clearly tell you what they're selling"?

            Now I'm even more baffled...:confused:

            ~Bill
            Anybody that purchases a product as the result of reading a BLIND SALES LETTER.

            Sales letters that sell the DREAM instead of tell you what the product is.

            You must be aware of that concept.
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            • Profile picture of the author Bill Farnham
              Originally Posted by Adam Roy View Post

              Anybody that purchases a product as the result of reading a BLIND SALES LETTER.

              Sales letters that sell the DREAM instead of tell you what the product is.

              You must be aware of that concept.
              Doesn't that tell you as much or more about the buyer as it does for the seller?

              Seems like a match made in heaven...

              ~Bill
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              • Profile picture of the author Adam Roy
                Originally Posted by Bill Farnham View Post

                Doesn't that tell you as much or more about the buyer as it does for the seller?

                Seems like a match made in heaven...

                ~Bill
                lol, that's true Bill.

                I'm just saying, (not that it's even relevant to anybody in this thread who sells products), that naturally you're going to see more refunds immediately after purchase, when immediately after purchase the buyer realizes they did not get what they were expecting when they bought the product after reading the sales letter.
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              • Profile picture of the author Global Warrior
                Originally Posted by Bill Farnham View Post

                Doesn't that tell you as much or more about the buyer as it does for the seller?

                Seems like a match made in heaven...

                ~Bill
                Exactly We were all newbies once.
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              • Profile picture of the author wayne60618
                Originally Posted by Bill Farnham View Post

                Doesn't that tell you as much or more about the buyer as it does for the seller?

                Seems like a match made in heaven...

                ~Bill
                C'mon Bill...You have been around a while and you know blind offers are aimed at people that are new to IM...They buy into the hype and don't know what questions to ask.

                A naive prospect and a savy marketer is not a "match made in heaven".
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                • Profile picture of the author Bill Farnham
                  Originally Posted by wayne60618 View Post

                  C'mon Bill...You have been around a while and you know blind offers are aimed at people that are new to IM...They buy into the hype and don't know what questions to ask.

                  A naive prospect and a savy marketer is not a "match made in heaven".
                  Ah, you sensed the sarcasm.

                  +1.

                  ~Bill
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                  • Profile picture of the author wayne60618
                    Originally Posted by Bill Farnham View Post

                    Ah, you sensed the sarcasm.

                    +1.

                    ~Bill
                    Nope, but I get now
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                • Profile picture of the author wayne60618
                  Ramone_Johnny,

                  Just to be clear, my above response was not aimed at you or your business practices, just the side discussion around blind offers and newbies. I don't know you or your products and can only say based upon your posts you seem like a stand up guy.

                  Wayne
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          • Profile picture of the author Thomas Belknap
            Banned
            Originally Posted by Bill Farnham View Post

            Who are these people that buy products "when the seller doesn't even clearly tell you what they're selling"?

            Now I'm even more baffled...:confused:

            ~Bill
            Silly Bill, you clearly don't understand.

            It is like Christmas year round.

            You purchase something and then look to see what you got. I just love being surprised!
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            • Profile picture of the author Bill Farnham
              Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

              Silly Bill, you clearly don't understand.

              It is like Christmas year round.

              You purchase something and then look to see what you got. I just love being surprised!
              Thomas, I don't buy my own presents.

              You have my sympathies...

              ~Bill
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              • Profile picture of the author JCorp
                Originally Posted by Bill Farnham View Post

                Thomas, I don't buy my own presents.

                You have my sympathies...

                ~Bill
                Hahah. Hilarious
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            • Profile picture of the author Nightengale
              Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

              Silly Bill, you clearly don't understand.

              It is like Christmas year round.

              You purchase something and then look to see what you got. I just love being surprised!
              LOL! Thanks for the laugh!

              This is why I decided to 1) avoid strictly digital products and 2) refused to pursue the average Joe Schmoe market.

              I know a lot of people have made a lot of money selling bit and bytes and I've probably lost a lot of money by NOT selling strictly digital products. But neither am I willing to deal with ridiculous refund rates/requests.

              My membership offers a combination of digital and physical products as well as ongoing monthly coaching. So my delivery alone is designed to make the sale stick.

              Of all the things I've bought, only a couple have been Clickbank purchases. And I'd never considered being a vendor. Too little control over the process for me.

              If this month is an anomaly, check to see what might be the cause. Alexa had some very good questions for you. But if the trend continues, you've got two choices: 1) see what you can do yourself to make the sale stick (continuity delivery, bonuses, etc.) or 2) move to another platform.

              Or possibly choose another target market. Your choice of target market alone has a huge impact on the kind of business you'll have.

              And to those who made comments about the blind salesletters/ads:

              First, selling the sizzle (and not the steak) is plain good advertising and a time-tested principle of good advertising. Few sales are ever made without selling the sizzle.

              Selling the sizzle isn't the problem. Delivering on the promises IS the problem.

              Second, blind copy is also a specific technique -- and not necessarily a bad one. Sometimes, the seller can drum up more interest and curiosity (and sales) by selling what a product ISN'T rather than selling what it IS.

              Smart direct marketers know their metrics and they know what WORKS.

              Again, the issue isn't the blind copy. The issue is delivering on what was promised. Of course, with blind copy, higher refund rates might be higher because people didn't get what they expected. The smart marketer accounts for this and weighs the higher sales against the higher refunds to determine whether a blind salesletter is worth it.

              So get your complaints straight. And if something sounds too good to be true...

              Good luck!

              Michelle
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              "You can't market here. This is a marketing discussion forum!"
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      • Profile picture of the author Global Warrior
        Originally Posted by Bill Farnham View Post

        I'm always baffled by how someone can determine the value of a product in 3 minutes.

        3 minutes.

        Did I mention this always baffles me?

        ~Bill
        Hi Bill

        I probably should have pointed out that it was probably the 4th such bit of BS remarketed and repackaged and so it would have taken 3 days, to ask for the first refund and then as soon as you see its the same BS, 3 minutes for the subsequent refunds.

        So as for knowing the value within 3 minutes......... you can't polish a turd :-)

        Have a great week Bill.

        All the best

        GW
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        • Profile picture of the author TheJustWarrior
          Originally Posted by Global Warrior View Post


          So as for knowing the value within 3 minutes......... you can't polish a turd :-)

          Have a great week Bill.

          All the best

          GW
          It is absolutely ridiculous that you can assess the full detailed product in 3 minutes.
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    • Profile picture of the author hawkiye
      I am with Kool photo and global warrior. I have been on the otherside. And even WSO's around here have gotten out of hand. When you get promised crap that you know is BS and then the JV partners all jump on the bandwagon and put you on 50 different lists to get the bonuses and fill your inbox with hundreds of push button instant riches offers daily it is ridiculous and the refunds are going to be higher.

      You guys write great sales letters that suck you in even though we know better. If you want to cut down on refunds (speaking in general not to anyone specifically) stop writing overhyped sales letters that promise more then can be delivered and jumping on the bandwagon for every other offer your buddies make and be 100% honest and forthcoming about your product (and make sure the product is a good one and can deliver what it promises) and I bet your refunds will drop dramatically.

      You'll always have some refunds no matter what however you will build a loyal customer following by stopping worrying about money and concentrate on quality honesty and integrity and you will make more money in the long run. Bitching about refunds is like a dollar waiting on a dime IMO...
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      • I'm also on a ton of Warriors lists, over 30, and the most repulsive thing is to get 10 emails in one day for the same crap WSO that not one of them has ever read or implemented. Then you go to the thread and see that all of them are leaving glowing reviews without disclosing that they are also affiliates. The FTC will eventually crack down on that. It's also disgusting to listen to you people on this thread that think it's OK to lie because it's expected in these types of products. Where did you people grow up anyway? They should arrest a few of you for fraud and make an example out of you.
        Stef ranting over

        Originally Posted by hawkiye View Post

        I am with Kool photo and global warrior. I have been on the otherside. And even WSO's around here have gotten out of hand. When you get promised crap that you know is BS and then the JV partners all jump on the bandwagon and put you on 50 different lists to get the bonuses and fill your inbox with hundreds of push button instant riches offers daily it is ridiculous and the refunds are going to be higher.

        You guys write great sales letters that suck you in even though we know better. If you want to cut down on refunds (speaking in general not to anyone specifically) stop writing overhyped sales letters that promise more then can be delivered and jumping on the bandwagon for every other offer your buddies make and be 100% honest and forthcoming about your product (and make sure the product is a good one and can deliver what it promises) and I bet your refunds will drop dramatically.

        You'll always have some refunds no matter what however you will build a loyal customer following by stopping worrying about money and concentrate on quality honesty and integrity and you will make more money in the long run. Bitching about refunds is like a dollar waiting on a dime IMO...
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        • Profile picture of the author John Romaine
          Originally Posted by BeenThereDoneThat View Post

          That might be OK with Clickbank, but with WSOs for instance, the faster you get your refund the better. As soon as everybody figures out the product is a scam you might not be able to get a refund at all. Way more than half the WSOs are outright scams, that the seller has never implemented or ever made money from. I've only bought 3 CB products in my life and all 3 were crap. I didn't know about the refund policy on the first one, but refunded the other two, and never will buy from CB again.
          I don't sell CB products either and when I get emails selling them I unsubscribe.
          Stef
          Originally Posted by BeenThereDoneThat View Post

          I'm also on a ton of Warriors lists, over 30, and the most repulsive thing is to get 10 emails in one day for the same crap WSO that not one of them has ever read or implemented. Then you go to the thread and see that all of them are leaving glowing reviews without disclosing that they are also affiliates. The FTC will eventually crack down on that. It's also disgusting to listen to you people on this thread that think it's OK to lie because it's expected in these types of products. Where did you people grow up anyway? They should arrest a few of you for fraud and make an example out of you.
          Stef ranting over

          I think this might be what you're looking for.


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  • Profile picture of the author EricBaglio
    One thing I did in the past which helped is I drip fed bonus content once a week for 10 weeks using an autoresponder. The real trick was having a cliffhanger at the end of each module so they would stick around for the next week.

    Just a tip.
    Signature

    "TAKE ACTION" is the first thing everyone tells you and then they leave it at that. I'll add a second part: TRACK EVERYTHING" - It's the only way to ensure your ACTION leads to results.

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  • Profile picture of the author atrbiz
    Ramone,

    That's really unfortunate bro, hopefully CB changes things around...it's getting ridiculous!

    - Ahmad
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  • Profile picture of the author timpears
    How much did you sell this or last month through CB? I got to believe it is a whole lot more than $600. So you made a profit. I would quit whining about the refunds and be thankful for the profits, and work to increase the number of sales. There is nothing you can do about the refunders. And the time you spend fretting about it is less time you have to promote your business.

    If it was a physical product that cost you money every time someone stole it, then you have something to complain about. But none of these refund sales cost you anything to deliver. You are worrying about the wrong stuff, and worrying about this will only lead to ulcers with no positive outcome.

    I don't mean to be harsh as I emphasize with you. There is little you can do about this, other than cut off this sales channel. Would your bottom line income be more or less if you did that? I got to think less. So that doesn't benefit you now does it?
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  • Profile picture of the author TheJustWarrior
    ---->magical shoe box...wonders within...only $12
    Signature

    even if you're on the right track, you'll get run over if you just sit there

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  • Profile picture of the author mattpaul2000
    Never, ever been a fan of clickbank...have a look at Rapid Action Profits and control it yourself.
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  • Profile picture of the author scraig
    It's all part of the business. No disrespect intended, but do you offer a solid product that delivers. Could anything be done to make it better and cut down refunds? Try giving a free gift if someone requests a refund. You could say something like sorry you didn't like my product. Here's a free gift as my way of saying thanks for giving it a try. Give them some good content, and you may find they buy from you and "stick" the next time.
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  • Profile picture of the author keyon
    I'm thinking that the validity of a refund -- whether the customer is genuinely unhappy with the product, or whether the customer just wants the product for free -- probably has a lot to do with the niche itself. For example, I truly believe that most of the hobby-related markets (gardening, cooking, woodworking) consist of people who aren't really thinking about how to spoof clickbank into giving them a free product. (they don't even know what Clickbank is). If these people are demanding a refund, you can bet the product they just purchased is pure junk.

    On the other hand, if we're talking about a niche like internet marketing, these customers are going to be a lot more savvy about the world of digital content, and more easily recognize that a refund means they get the item for free.
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  • Profile picture of the author Robert H Cwik
    Originally Posted by ramone_johnny View Post

    I know for some that may not seem like such a big deal, but I'm sick of it. I've quite literally had enough of Clickbanks immediate, no questions asked refund policy, and I am now actively working towards shifting my products to physical format where possible and using an alternate payment processor.

    Dont get me wrong, I love Clickbank, (well did) they've always paid on time, and offered great support, but as a vendor I think they have some serious issues that need to be addressed - the biggest of course being INTENTIONAL REFUNDERS.

    Ive lost $600 in sales this month due to refund requests, and ALL of them have been processed in just MINUTES after the transaction was completed.

    Had another one today, processed just 3 minutes after purchase.

    Its extremely frustrating as a vendor that I cannot dispute what is OBVIOUSLY an intentional refund request.

    Im absolutely sick and tired of this.

    Clickbank, you need to introduce payment disputes or some other alternative that prevents this BS from happening.
    I can understand you very well, although I suffered a significantly lower loss. However, it was all in the Make Money Online category. No other category has shown this trend so far.

    I know, there are "professional refunders" among good buyers and they'll happily request a refund soon after purchase.

    Immediate refunds hit me only on recurring commission products, where the customer canceled the recurring payment and requested the last one be refunded.

    I think we all would be better of if Clickbank had set a time buffer for issuing a refund, like 48 hours or 3 days. Maybe you should turn to their customer support showing that the refunds tool place almost immediately with the purchase. That might be a precedence to let them think over the refund policy.
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  • Profile picture of the author Osman_M
    Man that really sucks! I hate when I get even a single refund but refunds amounting to $600 is crazy. Are these refunds all legit? I have heard some horror stories about clickbank and I hope this is not one of them.

    I am beginning to become hesitant to use clickbank day by day now.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mark Singletary
    Just some random thoughts that you can take or leave as you see fit:

    1. While in 3 minutes, customers probably won't be able to see the quality of your product, they do see the quality of your thank you page or other instructions. Could it be that the "flow" (what to do next) isn't clear or something?

    2. Another thing they see is any OTOs - not sure if you have one (or three) or not. But if you do you may want to consider are they too pushy or does it give the impression that they have to still spend a ton of $$$ to get what they thought they were buying or...

    3. You may want to consider having drawn out bonuses that are so "appetizing" that the instant refunders would think twice. Of course the die hard, true blue instant refunders won't be dissuaded. For example if I know that in 15 days or 30 days or 45 days or 60 days I'm going to get some very nice and very valuable for free, I may be more inclined to stick around. The longer I stick around perhas it is less likely I'll refund.

    4. You may want to figure out a way to ask people not to frivolously refund (after the sale of course). Most people are decent and don't want to cheat others but they may feel that instant refunds don't really hurt anyone or something.

    5. Count your blessings. There are tons of people with $0 refunds month in and month out on Clickbank. Of course they have no Clickbank income either. The fact that you're getting refunds means that you are out there trying to do your part - you're not sitting around waiting for money to fall out of the money tree. You are making an effort and are being paid for it. You will NEVER please all the people all the time. And you'll drive yourself or others crazy if you try.

    Good luck in figuring it all out.
    Mark
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  • Profile picture of the author nicheblogger75
    Clickbak refunds are sickening, period. Have almost $750 this month myself!

    I have pretty much switched form Clickbank to promoting RapBank and even better, WSO's. 99% of the WSO's on WF are awesome and a great deal, so the refund rate for there is nil. And, I almost always purchase them before promoting.

    I find it's most effective to make a review video and then send your list traffic to that landing page rather than the hard sell right to the sales page.

    The best part of both RapBank and WF...The INSTANT commissions and trust that you build wiht you rlist for promoting quality stuff.

    Many marketers are fed up with Clickbank and have dropped off promoting CB products. Speaking from buyer experience, I'd say that most CB products don't even come close to delivering what's advertised. And while CB has tightened the reins on sales copy, they should also tighten the refund policy.
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  • Profile picture of the author Chris Q
    Banned
    This is why I have stopped promoting CB products due to serial refunders. It's an act of revolutionized stealing when someone buys a product and then refunds for bla bla bla reason, they got the money back plus they keep your product license.

    I think it's time for a change in the refund policy. I could have received my 1st CB check if these intentional refunds are not happening to me.
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  • Profile picture of the author bwh1
    Ehm, $600 from WHAT amount of sales?

    If you made 6k, then 10% isn't bad if it's a IM product, if you made 1k then you have to be worried.

    Did you try to offer some great bonuses like webinars etc. for who is at your buyer list?

    Spreading out good additional information over a few weeks will make those rates drop as people don't like to loose out on additional bonuses.

    Then someone told it. Those sales would NOT have been made on a other processor, as serious refunders do it on purpose.

    So it just sucks at your sales statement, but actually it's not that you've lost something other then a few bandwidth for the download.

    G.
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    • Profile picture of the author todawg_not
      I have been promoting clickbank products as an affiliate for some time.

      I personally found that for myself the least refunds I got were from products
      that we
      1. good quality
      2. Good self life history (use Cbengine pro acc to get this info)
      3. were not make money niche
      4. had vendors that we actively involved in the business, quicker customer response times thus less refunds.
      Refunds will always happen. If your a affliate it comes down to what you pick to promote. Stick with proven products,
      good history and active vendor engagement. You can find all this out in a cbengine pro acc.

      If your a vendor pickup your game. Garbage in garbage out as the old saying goes.

      This is as straight to piont as I can be without offending anyone (much)

      Hopes this helps

      Nigel


      P.s I think CB are heavily enforcing the 60 No questions asked refund policy
      since the FTC cracked down on their arse, and part of the blame is those fake actor push button sofware senario (pheww...that was a bit long winded) we all know off. I think it's partly CB's fault to not policeing these shady products vendors. It's all coming to bite us in the arse now fellows...lol
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      • Profile picture of the author wishfulsuccess
        I share your thoughts - the only thing I suggest is either of the few choices below:

        -Create your own online payment gateway on your site- Paypal / Credit card transfer (& Create an affiliate program using a script)

        -Create a front-end product that is less valuable to you as the front end, then upsell the $500 product. This way, you play around with lesser money with the serial refunders.


        And I'm seriously angry with the moral code of the marketplace in Internet marketing. Never before has a market seen crazy refund rates near 50% before - even if the product is particularly bad. Even if the product is good, people buy on purpose - get the privileges, and then get a refund.


        This is THEFT.

        But they get away with it - you know why? You don't have a disclaimer saying that you're not allowed to keep the product once you refund. And doing it harms the sale of the real customer.

        But seriously - I wouldn't want to do business with jerks like that with no moral codes. They can just sleep at night with no guilt, and live their lives knowing themselves as thieves.
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      • Profile picture of the author rts2271
        client server based licensing and delivery are the way to go. That way if they refund the lost product access. For Ebooks this would mean making the ebook only viewable through a web app or some type of ereader that can clawback the files or render them useless. For software its a simple act of using a encoder and some type of license manager like whmcs.

        2 cents
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      • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
        This response to the person who bought and refunded in minutes because
        the sales page didn't tell him what he was getting.

        THEN WHY THE %&%^ DID YOU BUY IT IN THE FIRST PLACE?

        God...I will NEVER understand people who look inside the magic cookie jar
        hoping to find a chocolate chip mocha surprise only to get pissed off because
        they found a polished turd instead.

        If the sales page doesn't CLEARLY tell me what I'm getting...I DON'T $%&%%
        BUY IT.

        How hard is that?

        Like Bill said, it says as much about the person buying the sh*t as the one who
        is selling it.

        Match made in heaven?

        More like a match made way lower than that.
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        • Profile picture of the author Global Warrior
          Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

          This response to the person who bought and refunded in minutes because
          the sales page didn't tell him what he was getting.

          THEN WHY THE %&%^ DID YOU BUY IT IN THE FIRST PLACE?

          God...I will NEVER understand people who look inside the magic cookie jar
          hoping to find a chocolate chip mocha surprise only to get pissed off because
          they found a polished turd instead.

          If the sales page doesn't CLEARLY tell me what I'm getting...I DON'T $%&%%
          BUY IT.

          How hard is that?

          Like Bill said, it says as much about the person buying the sh*t as the one who
          is selling it.

          Match made in heaven?

          More like a match made way lower than that.
          Hi SW

          Errrrr...... BECAUSE it had a refund policy!!!!! People who create these push button GRQ 3 click products and then use a slick marketing campaign to sell it, know that newbies, which is what i was, are going to be desperate to learn IM. They give the promises in the sales video, but not the substance, so you buy the promise, to discover there is no substance....because you've seen it before, so get a refund and move on!!!

          The OP has said that MMO isnt his niche. He did explain what his product was and i feel sorry for him because it sounds awesome.

          However, it seems that there are quite a few people who just want to sell anything to anyone that will buy it. The affiliate probably has NO IDEA what it is he is actually selling off of CB. He has just found something which is "hot" and is looking for suckers to buy it. Well guess what, those suckers are protected from the likes of the affiliate with a 60 day money back guarantee.... WHY???? BECAUSE you are pedalling dreams and not substance and people who are new to IM are vulnerable to the vultures....and the one thing the posters on this thread seem to agree on is that most of CB is BS.

          BUT a newbie wouldn't necessarily know that. A newbie would see false earning claims, but not know that either and buy the dream, only to find that he'd bought BS.

          I just want to clarify here the next para IS NOT AIMED AT SW WHO I QUOTED ABOVE. ITS A GENERALISED STATEMENT AND I HOPE IT WILL BE TAKEN THAT WAY.

          But you know what, if you are an affiliate that sells dreams and not substance, its YOUR FAULT as an affiliate that pumps BS in the hope of making a fast buck that there are refunds posted. You are probably completely ignorant of the product you are pushing, you just saw that it had a gravity of "x" and thought, I can sell that to some suckers..... but you forget, the 6o day MBG is there to protect those suckers from people that actually don't care what they sell or who to.

          And there seems to be a willingness from experienced marketers here to forget that they too were once beginners. Possibly not in the day of the long sales letter accompanied with a slick video, false earning claims, false CB statements, lies about villas they own....etc etc etc. But for the newbie today, that is the reality. That is what they are presented with, because they googled "make Money Online" and these were the results they got.

          So that in a nutshell is exactly why you can buy a magic bit of software but not actually know what it is you're buying..... because CB says, ok Mr marketer, try and sell that BS, if you get away with it, great. But if they guy at the other end realises its BS, he's going to get his money back.

          All the best

          GW
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          • Profile picture of the author rts2271
            Originally Posted by Global Warrior View Post

            Hi SW

            Errrrr...... BECAUSE it had a refund policy!!!!! People who create these push button GRQ 3 click products and then use a slick marketing campaign to sell it, know that newbies, which is what i was, are going to be desperate to learn IM. They give the promises in the sales video, but not the substance, so you buy the promise, to discover there is no substance....because you've seen it before, so get a refund and move on!!!

            The OP has said that MMO isnt his niche. He did explain what his product was and i feel sorry for him because it sounds awesome.

            However, it seems that there are quite a few people who just want to sell anything to anyone that will buy it. The affiliate probably has NO IDEA what it is he is actually selling off of CB. He has just found something which is "hot" and is looking for suckers to buy it. Well guess what, those suckers are protected from the likes of the affiliate with a 60 day money back guarantee.... WHY???? BECAUSE you are pedalling dreams and not substance and people who are new to IM are vulnerable to the vultures....and the one thing the posters on this thread seem to agree on is that most of CB is BS.

            BUT a newbie wouldn't necessarily know that. A newbie would see false earning claims, but not know that either and buy the dream, only to find that he'd bought BS.

            I just want to clarify here the next para IS NOT AIMED AT SW WHO I QUOTED ABOVE. ITS A GENERALISED STATEMENT AND I HOPE IT WILL BE TAKEN THAT WAY.

            But you know what, if you are an affiliate that sells dreams and not substance, its YOUR FAULT as an affiliate that pumps BS in the hope of making a fast buck that there are refunds posted. You are probably completely ignorant of the product you are pushing, you just saw that it had a gravity of "x" and thought, I can sell that to some suckers..... but you forget, the 6o day MBG is there to protect those suckers from people that actually don't care what they sell or who to.

            And there seems to be a willingness from experienced marketers here to forget that they too were once beginners. Possibly not in the day of the long sales letter accompanied with a slick video, false earning claims, false CB statements, lies about villas they own....etc etc etc. But for the newbie today, that is the reality. That is what they are presented with, because they googled "make Money Online" and these were the results they got.

            So that in a nutshell is exactly why you can buy a magic bit of software but not actually know what it is you're buying..... because CB says, ok Mr marketer, try and sell that BS, if you get away with it, great. But if they guy at the other end realises its BS, he's going to get his money back.

            All the best

            GW
            Outside of the digital marketplace we call that the entitled mindset. It's why people sign mortgages they know they can't afford and blame the banks, buy stuff at Walmart they can't afford intending on taking it back and overall think it is ok to learn lifes lessons at the expense of others.
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            • Profile picture of the author Global Warrior
              Originally Posted by rts2271 View Post

              Outside of the digital marketplace we call that the entitled mindset. It's why people sign mortgages they know they can't afford and blame the banks, buy stuff at Walmart they can't afford intending on taking it back and overall think it is ok to learn lifes lessons at the expense of others.
              The FTC would NEVER allow any of the entities you mention to advertise BLATANT lies in order to get people to part with their cash. Its sad that in the case of IM a newbie has a 99% probability of being exposed to blatant lies.

              But quite frankly its an illogical comparison.

              GW
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              • Profile picture of the author rts2271
                Originally Posted by Global Warrior View Post

                The FTC would NEVER allow any of the entities you mention to advertise BLATANT lies in order to get people to part with their cash. Its sad that in the case of IM a newbie has a 99% probability of being exposed to blatant lies.

                But quite frankly its an illogical comparison.

                GW
                Really,
                You think that cream will make you younger? Or those pills will shed pounds? Or that cologne will have women attracted to you? Those batteries will last a full year? Maybe you think you will be like James Bond from driving that car? Or that house that the broker sold you knowing it was 140% of your budget would magically come down in price? Please your justification for theft is more telling than anything.

                It's called personal responsibility. If you are dumb enough to buy something without knowing what you bought you deserve to be parted with your money. If you buy something and it's junk and you take responsibility for it, you learn to research and do your due diligence. You learn the lesson of perhaps there is NO magic bullet, no one click software and the lesson sticks with you. When your a entitled person you commit the same mistake over and over and expect a different result.
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                • Profile picture of the author Global Warrior
                  Originally Posted by rts2271 View Post

                  It's called personal responsibility. If you are dumb enough to buy something without knowing what you bought you deserve to be parted with your money.
                  Gosh,

                  WAY TOO MANY assumptions there.

                  I would never have even contemplated handing over any money for a product that wasn't fully disclosed had it not have come with an ironclad MBG. So to me there is no risk, there is no stupidity, there is no abandoning common sense, there is no flagrant disregard for responsibility... its a no brainer, find out what it is he's selling because you can get your money back. Without that guarantee, i and many like me would never have made the purchase.

                  i was actually giving a different POV to the OP because i remember my days as a noob and whether i did it right or wrong is actually not what this thread is about.
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                • Profile picture of the author JEasy
                  Originally Posted by rts2271 View Post

                  Really,
                  You think that cream will make you younger? Or those pills will shed pounds? Or that cologne will have women attracted to you? Those batteries will last a full year? Maybe you think you will be like James Bond from driving that car? Or that house that the broker sold you knowing it was 140% of your budget would magically come down in price? Please your justification for theft is more telling than anything.

                  It's called personal responsibility. If you are dumb enough to buy something without knowing what you bought you deserve to be parted with your money. If you buy something and it's junk and you take responsibility for it, you learn to research and do your due diligence. You learn the lesson of perhaps there is NO magic bullet, no one click software and the lesson sticks with you. When your a entitled person you commit the same mistake over and over and expect a different result.
                  Wow I find it amazing that the consumer is always blamed for being stupid or whatever because they actually believed what the marketer presented. If the marketer says the cream will make you look younger, and was presented in a way that seemed legitimate, then why not believe that maybe this guy maybe has found something no one else has. That's what you all as marketers are selling.

                  When it's not true, and the consumer realizes it, they'll take advantage of the money back guarantee. THAT'S WHAT IT'S THERE FOR. I don't know the OP, but if he's NOT marketing in the IM Niche and STILL had $600 in refunds, then he must be selling a bogus product. This is not the first thread I've read from this guy whining about Clickbank's refund policy.
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          • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
            Originally Posted by Global Warrior View Post

            Hi SW

            Errrrr...... BECAUSE it had a refund policy!!!!! People who create these push button GRQ 3 click products and then use a slick marketing campaign to sell it, know that newbies, which is what i was, are going to be desperate to learn IM. They give the promises in the sales video, but not the substance, so you buy the promise, to discover there is no substance....because you've seen it before, so get a refund and move on!!!

            The OP has said that MMO isnt his niche. He did explain what his product was and i feel sorry for him because it sounds awesome.

            However, it seems that there are quite a few people who just want to sell anything to anyone that will buy it. The affiliate probably has NO IDEA what it is he is actually selling off of CB. He has just found something which is "hot" and is looking for suckers to buy it. Well guess what, those suckers are protected from the likes of the affiliate with a 60 day money back guarantee.... WHY???? BECAUSE you are pedalling dreams and not substance and people who are new to IM are vulnerable to the vultures....and the one thing the posters on this thread seem to agree on is that most of CB is BS.

            BUT a newbie wouldn't necessarily know that. A newbie would see false earning claims, but not know that either and buy the dream, only to find that he'd bought BS.

            I just want to clarify here the next para IS NOT AIMED AT SW WHO I QUOTED ABOVE. ITS A GENERALISED STATEMENT AND I HOPE IT WILL BE TAKEN THAT WAY.

            But you know what, if you are an affiliate that sells dreams and not substance, its YOUR FAULT as an affiliate that pumps BS in the hope of making a fast buck that there are refunds posted. You are probably completely ignorant of the product you are pushing, you just saw that it had a gravity of "x" and thought, I can sell that to some suckers..... but you forget, the 6o day MBG is there to protect those suckers from people that actually don't care what they sell or who to.

            And there seems to be a willingness from experienced marketers here to forget that they too were once beginners. Possibly not in the day of the long sales letter accompanied with a slick video, false earning claims, false CB statements, lies about villas they own....etc etc etc. But for the newbie today, that is the reality. That is what they are presented with, because they googled "make Money Online" and these were the results they got.

            So that in a nutshell is exactly why you can buy a magic bit of software but not actually know what it is you're buying..... because CB says, ok Mr marketer, try and sell that BS, if you get away with it, great. But if they guy at the other end realises its BS, he's going to get his money back.

            All the best

            GW
            What I don't understand is this.

            Where did common sense go out the window?

            If you walked into a Sears Hardware and the salesman said to you....

            "See this little button? If you press this little button, it will turn on your
            coffee maker in the morning, dry your dishes at night, and bring you a rum
            and coke before you go to bed at night"...

            You'd look at him like he had two heads and laugh in his face.

            When did we become so ridiculously stupid when it comes to buying "the
            dream?"

            The bad products and/ore services I bought when I first started out were
            not because they were smoke and mirrors (no explanation of what I was
            getting) but because they were flat out lies.

            They said I'd get paid $X for doing Y activity and never got paid for doing it.

            That is outright fraud.

            But I never looked at these "make a million in your sleep on autopilot" sales
            pages and bought even ONE of them.

            I bought products like...

            "How to write a sales letter"
            "How to write articles"
            "How to build an opt in list"
            "How to setup an autoresponder series"

            Or things like...

            Salesletter templates
            Squeeze Page templates
            Web site templates

            Stuff where I knew BEFORE I was buying it EXACTLY what I was getting.

            And in the off line world, most of these normally sane people would do just
            that...buy things because they know what they're getting.

            Even people who buy lottery tickets know that they're paying $1 (or
            whatever the ticket costs) to have a CHANCE to win some money.

            Nobody is delusional enough to really believe that if they buy a lottery
            ticket for $1 that the next day they will DEFINITELY be a millionaire.

            And yes, online...it's like we all become morons.

            "OMG...if I buy this push-a-button spandex glow worm I'll make $30,000 in
            the next 30 days."

            Oh wait...excuse me. They don't even know it's a push-a-button spandex
            glow worm because the sales page tells them...

            NOTHING.

            I'm sorry but I have no sympathy for people who buy things that don't tell
            them what they're getting.

            At least my products give a detailed description of what the buyer is
            getting. And no, I don't make the ridiculous number of sales that these
            Clickbank dream merchants make but at least I can sleep at night.

            What's YOUR excuse for letting common sense go right out the window?

            Instead of being desperate and hoping for a miracle how about try this on
            for size?

            1. Take a course on finance or marketing in an accredited college.
            2. Look for solid opportunities where it is clearly laid out what you're getting.

            Or...if you REALLY want to get into sales

            3. Work out a reasonable business plan with the help of a business planning
            professional...somebody who knows that in order to sell stuff to people, you
            have to have something that people WANT.

            These people selling the "dream" are able to sell it because they know how
            to sell it and know that rational people lose all sense of reason when they
            hit the Internet.

            It's like "It Conquered The World" is still alive and well on planet Earth.

            For crying out loud...use the common sense that God gave you.

            Because I'm starting to think that a lot of people have been short changed
            in that area.
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            • Profile picture of the author Magic Johnson
              Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

              What I don't understand is this.

              Where did common sense go out the window?

              If you walked into a Sears Hardware and the salesman said to you....

              "See this little button? If you press this little button, it will turn on your
              coffee maker in the morning, dry your dishes at night, and bring you a rum
              and coke before you go to bed at night"...

              You'd look at him like he had two heads and laugh in his face.

              When did we become so ridiculously stupid when it comes to buying "the
              dream?"

              The bad products and/ore services I bought when I first started out were
              not because they were smoke and mirrors (no explanation of what I was
              getting) but because they were flat out lies.

              They said I'd get paid for doing Y activity and never got paid for doing it.

              That is outright fraud.

              But I never looked at these "make a million in your sleep on autopilot" sales
              pages and bought even ONE of them.

              I bought products like...

              "How to write a sales letter"
              "How to write articles"
              "How to build an opt in list"
              "How to setup an autoresponder series"

              Or things like...

              Salesletter templates
              Squeeze Page templates
              Web site templates

              Stuff where I knew BEFORE I was buying it EXACTLY what I was getting.

              And in the off line world, most of these normally sane people would do just
              that...buy things because they know what they're getting.

              Even people who buy lottery tickets know that they're paying $1 (or
              whatever the ticket costs) to have a CHANCE to win some money.

              Nobody is delusional enough to really believe that if they buy a lottery
              ticket for $1 that the next day they will DEFINITELY be a millionaire.

              And yes, online...it's like we all become morons.

              "OMG...if I buy this push-a-button spandex glow worm I'll make $30,000 in
              the next 30 days."

              Oh wait...excuse me. They don't even know it's a push-a-button spandex
              glow worm because the sales page tells them...

              NOTHING.

              I'm sorry but I have no sympathy for people who buy things that don't tell
              them what they're getting.

              At least my products give a detailed description of what the buyer is
              getting. And no, I don't make the ridiculous number of sales that these
              Clickbank dream merchants make but at least I can sleep at night.

              What's YOUR excuse for letting common sense go right out the window?

              Instead of being desperate and hoping for a miracle how about try this on
              for size?

              1. Take a course on finance or marketing in an accredited college.
              2. Look for solid opportunities where it is clearly laid out what you're getting.

              Or...if you REALLY want to get into sales

              3. Work out a reasonable business plan with the help of a business planning
              professional...somebody who knows that in order to sell stuff to people, you
              have to have something that people WANT.

              These people selling the "dream" are able to sell it because they know how
              to sell it and know that rational people lose all sense of reason when they
              hit the Internet.

              It's like "It Conquered The World" is still alive and well on planet Earth.

              For crying out loud...use the common sense that God gave you.

              Because I'm starting to think that a lot of people have been short changed
              in that area.
              Steven, wow, can't believe you made an additional rant about this. It's true as they say, curiousity killed the cat.

              Especially in Internet marketing.
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        • Profile picture of the author Magic Johnson
          Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

          This response to the person who bought and refunded in minutes because
          the sales page didn't tell him what he was getting.

          THEN WHY THE %&%^ DID YOU BUY IT IN THE FIRST PLACE?

          God...I will NEVER understand people who look inside the magic cookie jar
          hoping to find a chocolate chip mocha surprise only to get pissed off because
          they found a polished turd instead.

          If the sales page doesn't CLEARLY tell me what I'm getting...I DON'T $%&%%
          BUY IT.

          How hard is that?

          Like Bill said, it says as much about the person buying the sh*t as the one who
          is selling it.

          Match made in heaven?

          More like a match made way lower than that.
          Some people are more dreamy and live by their feelings, while other people are more logical and thoughtful. You could be a little more humble and understanding for the dreamers, Steven.

          Personally I'm one of those dreamers. An INFP. I've bought the turd, many times.
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  • Profile picture of the author Juan Burton
    Sure, refunds are the nature of every business. We'll have to find or implement new and better ways to protect and secure our products/services from "serial refunders". Definitely frustrating.
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    JUAN BURTON | COM - Internet Marketer | Actor | Forex Broker | Film Producer | Product Developer
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  • Profile picture of the author Gary Ning Lo
    IM niche as the highest refund in my opinion.

    I also work in the gambling niche and get like 10 times less refunds.

    Cheers,

    ~Gary
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    • Profile picture of the author Raydal
      Originally Posted by garytsang View Post

      IM niche as the highest refund in my opinion.

      I also work in the gambling niche and get like 10 times less refunds.

      Cheers,

      ~Gary
      So even gamblers have a better reputation than Internet Marketers?

      I guess the gamblers are so accustomed to losing and they can't ask for
      a refund afterward.

      -Ray Edwards
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  • Profile picture of the author mark healy
    As a vendor i did put my product on clickbank recently and they wanted a 60 day money back guarantee as policy, not the 30 days i would like.I do like clickbank, but they keep changing there vendor terms and conditions.
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  • Profile picture of the author Frank Kerley
    I've been marketing IM products through ClickBank and the last few months the refunds have been outrageous. I've started to switch over to WSO's with much better results!
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  • Profile picture of the author HonestAffiliate
    Has CB ever addressed serial refunders?

    Would your business suffer substantially if you
    moved to cheaper affiliate alternatives like
    payspree or rap?

    I don't really have experience in this, but would
    people trust you less if the payment was secured
    by paypal than by clickbank?

    Or is this just question that Clickbank has the best
    affiliates searching for products to promote?
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  • Profile picture of the author andynathan
    When I did a WSO last month, my only refund when I checked was actually from someone who wrote articles similar to what my product offered.

    It is one thing to buy a product to check out the competition. It is another to buy my product and then refund it once you have all the information you need. I found that extremely annoying.

    It was not a lot of money, but at the same point it was just not right.
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      CB says it has a policy against serial refunders but not sure when, or even if, it's enforced.

      The problem is....internet marketing. You won't see that refund problem in other non-IM niches on clickbank.

      Internat marketers know from forums like this one that CB refunds are easy and guaranteed - and they are buying one IM product after another and refunding quickly. Many then share the products on piracy sites, too.

      It's pretty much guaranteed if you are selling "make money online" products on clickbank you'll have a ridiculous refund rate.
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      • Profile picture of the author John Romaine
        Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

        CB says it has a policy against serial refunders but not sure when, or even if, it's enforced.

        The problem is....internet marketing. You won't see that refund problem in other non-IM niches on clickbank.

        Internat marketers know from forums like this one that CB refunds are easy and guaranteed - and they are buying one IM product after another and refunding quickly. Many then share the products on piracy sites, too.

        It's pretty much guaranteed if you are selling "make money online" products on clickbank you'll have a ridiculous refund rate.
        I think over time, the marketplace wont matter. As more and more people become "clued in" about just how easy it is to pull refunds on Clickbank products, the problem will spread.

        BTW - Im not in the MMO or IM niches.
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      • Profile picture of the author Rsberg
        Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

        Many then share the products on piracy sites, too.
        This is the real issue here...

        Yes it sucks losing those sales (if they had not refunded) but the worst thing is you dont know how many of those refunds end up with your products being given out somewhere else...either for free or making someone else money.
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  • Profile picture of the author Jonathan Price
    It's true, Clickbank does have serial refunders. If people see that a product is using Clickbank as the payment processor, they know they can get an instant refund and also buy through their own hoplink. This is a bit of a shame, but not using Clickbank would be missing out on some MEGA affiliates, so the best vendors can do is have a great product, timely support and bonuses that drip-feed after the purchase (this is a great way of reducing CB refunds). I make a good chunk of my money with Clickbank, but overall am happy with them. They always are taking steps to improve their service (albeit slow steps )

    Thanks,
    Mark
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  • Profile picture of the author wegenbelasting
    Originally Posted by ramone_johnny View Post

    I know for some that may not seem like such a big deal, but I'm sick of it. I've quite literally had enough of Clickbanks immediate, no questions asked refund policy, and I am now actively working towards shifting my products to physical format where possible and using an alternate payment processor.

    Dont get me wrong, I love Clickbank, (well did) they've always paid on time, and offered great support, but as a vendor I think they have some serious issues that need to be addressed - the biggest of course being INTENTIONAL REFUNDERS.

    Ive lost $600 in sales this month due to refund requests, and ALL of them have been processed in just MINUTES after the transaction was completed.

    Had another one today, processed just 3 minutes after purchase.

    Its extremely frustrating as a vendor that I cannot dispute what is OBVIOUSLY an intentional refund request.

    Im absolutely sick and tired of this.

    Clickbank, you need to introduce payment disputes or some other alternative that prevents this BS from happening.
    If there was no refund option you would never have made the sale in the first place, so no idea why you are whining. Serial refunders don't pay for stuff unless they get it back so it's easy for you to check your sales ratio after discounting the refunders and think about it if it's still worth it to continue your business there based on the true number of sales that stick.
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    • Profile picture of the author John Romaine
      Originally Posted by wegenbelasting View Post

      If there was no refund option you would never have made the sale in the first place.
      Oh thanks for that.

      I appreciate the fact that you can confidentally say this with absolute certainty.
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  • Profile picture of the author WebDorkette
    Banned
    That's really sad, $600 dollars worth of refunds is rediculous. It's amazing that CB has done nothing to stop serial refunders. What makes matters worse is those that order the product, spin it in their own words and try to sell it like it's "original". Anyone else have that issue because I have and it's what made me stop working with CB. There is absolutely no protection for the seller/affiliate! I say we all start a new movement and lovingly call it "occupy clickbank" haha ok I'll stop now.
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  • Profile picture of the author wegenbelasting
    Originally Posted by jessicwill View Post

    The man who bought one of Click bank products will continue to support me almost every day for six weeks and then had the courage to ask for a refund, without objection, after 40 days of tutoring.
    Now THAT is frustrating indeed, in my life I bought maybe 3 clickbank products and once I asked for a refund cause I didn't like it, btw that was for Article Marketing Robot, cause I was sick of filling in 1000 captcha's lol, now I think about repurchasing it with a captcha solver, back then I had no clue something like that existed.
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  • Profile picture of the author dave147
    You can request to blacklist a suspected serial refunder at CB. If there are many such requests on the same IP or CC then they will be blacklisted from making CB purchases.
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  • Profile picture of the author zamzung
    Refunds are part of the business... they exist in any type of business, therefore I don't think you will be able to avoid refunds with physical products, although I can assume there will be less of them...

    I can agree with you that we can get sick of intentional refunders, especially when there is a no-questions asked guarantee... but I don't think we can do anything about that... it's the way it is in this business, especially with Clicbank...

    You might think of switching to some other payment processor with affiliate program that will give you ability to actually ask some questions before you make a refund...
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  • Profile picture of the author xtrapunch
    Most of the products in Make Money niche are total rip-off. Some old information converted into an ebook or video, and being sold as magic bullets. I guess the buyers have a right to refuse such products. If you offer me a real product, I will be more than happy to pay you.

    I provide free WordPress themes. I keep getting small payments for these themes. That's because people find them useful. Maybe, it's time for WSOs to have such policy. Are you confident enough that your system will make me money so that I can send you a contribution of $10-20-100-500?
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  • Profile picture of the author imdomination
    The thing about serial refunders though is they're ONLY going to buy if they know they can get that refund right away. If you take that access away they're not going to buy the product at all, and so you're never going to see the commission anyways.

    I agree that it sucks, but I always ignore the serial refunders since you're not going to get their cash regardless of what you do.
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  • Profile picture of the author entrepreneurjay
    I hear ya Johnny I had sold a few programs that sold for over a $1,000 dollars.

    One of the sales the guy had the nerve to refund with 1 day left after he received almost 8 weeks in free training.

    Must of been pretty good if he waited that long. If this was not intentional I don't know what is. Bunch of leeches gaming the system.

    If you do not like the product return it in a reasonable amount of time like within the first week. If your waiting to the last minute obviously you found value in the product, or service.

    I 100% agree I wish they would make it a little harder to get refunds.
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  • Profile picture of the author Hans Klein
    Originally Posted by ramone_johnny View Post

    I know for some that may not seem like such a big deal, but I'm sick of it. I've quite literally had enough of Clickbanks immediate, no questions asked refund policy, and I am now actively working towards shifting my products to physical format where possible and using an alternate payment processor.

    Dont get me wrong, I love Clickbank, (well did) they've always paid on time, and offered great support, but as a vendor I think they have some serious issues that need to be addressed - the biggest of course being INTENTIONAL REFUNDERS.

    Ive lost $600 in sales this month due to refund requests, and ALL of them have been processed in just MINUTES after the transaction was completed.

    Had another one today, processed just 3 minutes after purchase.

    Its extremely frustrating as a vendor that I cannot dispute what is OBVIOUSLY an intentional refund request.

    Im absolutely sick and tired of this.

    Clickbank, you need to introduce payment disputes or some other alternative that prevents this BS from happening.
    Why not solve the problem on your own?

    * Create an effective "stick" thank you page and welcome email
    * Tell new customers you're offering a special bonus in the next 48 hours... and do so.
    * Give surprise bonuses through out the refund period
    * Reword your guarantee to set expectations for what happens after they order. Why they need you... and you'll be there for their journey ahead.
    * Deliver a critical extra webinar/recording/product component weeks after purchase.
    * If software, there are solutions to have it cut off upon refund. If not software, you could offer a software addition that cuts off.

    Just something to think about.
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  • Profile picture of the author rahip4567
    This is actually true, Clickbanks needs to step up and do something about it. I feel sorry for you, losing $600 means a lot to a lot of people.
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  • Profile picture of the author Folusho Orokunle
    I used to sell a physical IM Course through Paypal that got about a 20% refund rate. The price range was between $197-$700.

    I reduced my refund rate to 0!

    So it can be done, you have more control than you think!

    Every market is different though, so you have to come up with an idea that works in your market.

    If people refund after 3 minutes, more than likely they're downloading your stuff then asking for a refund. So I would put some type of BIG FAT warning on your thank you page, etc...
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    • Profile picture of the author Samangel
      The solution to this is apparent to me as the same solution was apparent in another marketing forum to another issue regarding a "Google Webmaster Tools notice of detected unnatural (inbound) links" letter.

      It's the one thing we all have that identifies us - the IP address.

      If Service Providers (such as Clickbank and Google) can insist on the following of guidelines and policies by marketers to protect the users of their services to the point of loss for the marketer, then they should equally be enforcing simple checks using IP addresses to eliminate the abusing users of their services.

      To elaborate, Clickbank should be detecting "serial refunders" through the IP address and set a default of 2 or 3 refunds in consecutive order to ban that IP from purchasing in the first place. To back up sidestepping and loopholing the policy, the refund MUST or SHOULD be made from the same IP address the product was purchased, otherwise, they don't get it. There could be a proviso that if in 60 days time you still want a refund, you can claim it up to 90 days (between 60 and 90 days) after purchase.

      Just as....

      Google's notification of unnatural inbound links - apparently anyone that wants to eliminate their competition can just go buy link packages for a few bucks and lead them all to their competitors site which flags them, Google then warns the incoming links site to fix it and a promise to blacklist them - and they have no idea what Google is referring to.

      With such sophisticated bots and link tracking systems in place, I don't believe for one second that they couldn't work out or find out if the administrators of that incoming links site had visited the outbound links sites.

      If I'm missing something here that makes all that impossible, I'm open to it.
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    • Profile picture of the author John Romaine
      Originally Posted by Folusho Orokunle View Post

      I used to sell a physical IM Course through Paypal that got about a 20% refund rate. The price range was between $197-$700.

      I reduced my refund rate to 0!
      Folusho, were you actually having your product returned when customers would file a refund request? And what was your refund policy if you dont mind me asking?

      Also, would you mind sharing us how you managed to get your refunds down to nothing? Was it pricing alone, or something else?
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  • Profile picture of the author sethczerepak
    Originally Posted by ramone_johnny View Post

    I know for some that may not seem like such a big deal, but I'm sick of it. I've quite literally had enough of Clickbanks immediate, no questions asked refund policy, and I am now actively working towards shifting my products to physical format where possible and using an alternate payment processor.

    Dont get me wrong, I love Clickbank, (well did) they've always paid on time, and offered great support, but as a vendor I think they have some serious issues that need to be addressed - the biggest of course being INTENTIONAL REFUNDERS.

    Ive lost $600 in sales this month due to refund requests, and ALL of them have been processed in just MINUTES after the transaction was completed.

    Had another one today, processed just 3 minutes after purchase.

    Its extremely frustrating as a vendor that I cannot dispute what is OBVIOUSLY an intentional refund request.

    Im absolutely sick and tired of this.

    Clickbank, you need to introduce payment disputes or some other alternative that prevents this BS from happening.
    The "no questions asked refund" (in my opinion) is a poor marketing strategy for a product which you own and don't have to/can't return. Reminds me of vending machines before they had that "stop gate" at the bottom...everything on the bottom row was pretty much free. No one was there to stop the person from abusing the system, so it got abused...until something was created to stop it.

    It seems people have less of a conscience about ripping someone off over the internet as opposed to doing it in person.

    Serial refunders, without them the "no questions asked refund" would be just fine. But they're out there, and the only way to stop them is to find another way to remove risk...or make them at least answer a short "please send us feedback so we can improve this product" questionnaire.

    Wouldn't get rid of them all, but it would discourage most of them. For example, I had a guy try to get a refund for my $99 personal growth product (one time charge) by saying: "My situation has changed and I can no longer afford this product."

    I explained that the refund was only for those who were unhappy with the product and he didn't get a refund. No questions asked for a digital product is just asking for abuse.
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  • Profile picture of the author Chris Chicas
    Hi Ramone,

    If you start selling physical products you'll get a lot less refunds but also you'll sell alot less at the same time. Unless you offer both options. Nowadays when I buy something I want it to be there right away if possible.

    Anyways I looked at your links and you got some pretty kick ass products. I would say just offer more free value on your site and give them more for free to a point that they will think twice about refunding and doing you wrong after you've done so much good for them. It might not work all the time but it might work with some people.

    Best of luck.
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  • Profile picture of the author dagaul101
    It's unfortunate that the IM scene makes it so easy for folks to get a refund, it's the price of providing downloadable products
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    • Profile picture of the author Troy_Phillips
      A lot of the time those downloadable products can be reformatted into a membership type format, no longer downloadable but protected pages. Once you get it into this type of format the refunder can get their money back but can no longer access the info.

      Troy


      Originally Posted by dagaul101 View Post

      It's unfortunate that the IM scene makes it so easy for folks to get a refund, it's the price of providing downloadable products
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  • Profile picture of the author Troy_Phillips
    Johnny,

    There are several things you can do to slow them down.

    Put your products in a protected member type area. Since you are a vendor that makes up a good portion of your own sales, send all your personal traffic to this sales page. Your affiliates can still use the clickbank version or for a little less problems you could easily figure out how to send existing affiliates to PDC or spend a few minutes to a day setting up your own hosted affiliate solution.

    When not using CB as the manager you can still offer a money back but can demand some qualifications in getting that refund such as milestones that need to be completed or no refunds for a minimum of 30 days.

    Click Bank is still too valuable a stream for most to throw away completely but offering the product through several different channels can take the sting out of things and before long you could just find that you have transplanted your better converting affiliates into venues that are not so serial refunder friendly.

    Troy
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  • Profile picture of the author Rocky07
    It sucks!!!!!
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  • Profile picture of the author sal64
    Bill is in champagne form today!

    Gold.

    Me?

    I don't waste my time with CB any more. Apart from the affiliate program, I see no reason to sell through them. And frankly, if your product converts, you'll have no problems picking up affiliates... even if its through eJunkie.

    Sal
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  • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
    Originally Posted by ramone_johnny View Post

    some other alternative
    I have always wondered how large a difference it would make to institute a policy of not refunding for seven days.

    If you send a refund request before that, you get a polite form letter clarifying that you must wait seven days before sending any refund request because this is how long it takes to get a reasonable sense of the material.

    I figure most serial refunders are ADD enough that they'd just never come back to ask for the refund.
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    • Profile picture of the author sal64
      I just clicked on your donation link... you're serious aren't you.

      Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

      I have always wondered how large a difference it would make to institute a policy of not refunding for seven days.

      If you send a refund request before that, you get a polite form letter clarifying that you must wait seven days before sending any refund request because this is how long it takes to get a reasonable sense of the material.

      I figure most serial refunders are ADD enough that they'd just never come back to ask for the refund.
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    • That might be OK with Clickbank, but with WSOs for instance, the faster you get your refund the better. As soon as everybody figures out the product is a scam you might not be able to get a refund at all. Way more than half the WSOs are outright scams, that the seller has never implemented or ever made money from. I've only bought 3 CB products in my life and all 3 were crap. I didn't know about the refund policy on the first one, but refunded the other two, and never will buy from CB again.
      I don't sell CB products either and when I get emails selling them I unsubscribe.
      Stef

      Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

      I have always wondered how large a difference it would make to institute a policy of not refunding for seven days.

      If you send a refund request before that, you get a polite form letter clarifying that you must wait seven days before sending any refund request because this is how long it takes to get a reasonable sense of the material.

      I figure most serial refunders are ADD enough that they'd just never come back to ask for the refund.
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  • Profile picture of the author sal64
    I ran a membership in partnership once and the guy was anal about fraud. So all videos and audio were streaming... no downloads.

    Back in the old days, you had to enter a key in order to open an ebook. What ever happened to that?

    That's why now I just convert ebooks into drip feed membership sites, which deliver the final instalments after the guarantee expires. And if they refund, they get black banned for life.

    Once again, I offer 30 days and don't bother with CB any more.

    @ Steve W... yes caveat emptor buddy, but marketers have also made a rod for their back with false promises.

    Noobs are as hungry as you'll get in this biz. And the most vulnerable. There's no shortage of clowns willing to exploit the vulnerable both on line and off.

    It cuts both ways mate, so pull your head in, or at least be partial to both sides of the argument.
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    • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
      Originally Posted by sal64 View Post

      Back in the old days, you had to enter a key in order to open an ebook. What ever happened to that?
      It cost vendors time and money while making legitimate customers' lives difficult... without actually preventing piracy.

      In other words, it was stupid and didn't work.
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      • Profile picture of the author sal64
        Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

        It cost vendors time and money while making legitimate customers' lives difficult... without actually preventing piracy.

        In other words, it was stupid and didn't work.
        As opposed to your donation button? Or do people actually donate?
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        • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
          Originally Posted by sal64 View Post

          As opposed to your donation button?
          I spent five minutes making that button and it's made me just short of $200.

          Looks like it works to me.
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          "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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          • Profile picture of the author sal64
            Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

            I spent five minutes making that button and it's made me just short of $200.

            Looks like it works to me.

            Freakin awesome. Best sig link I've seen in my time.

            If you're ever down under, look me up.

            Then again, in the interests of a healthy liver and lasting marriage... perhaps not.
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          • Profile picture of the author Sid Hale
            And he does NOT entertain refund requests until at least 7 days AFTER your donation!

            Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

            I spent five minutes making that button and it's made me just short of $200.

            Looks like it works to me.
            (couldn't resist, Caliban)
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          • Profile picture of the author John Romaine
            Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

            I spent five minutes making that button and it's made me just short of $200.

            Looks like it works to me.
            $200 over 7 months equates to ....
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            • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
              Originally Posted by ramone_johnny View Post

              $200 over 7 months equates to ....
              ...more than the average AdSense site

              Besides, the average WSO vendor would say I made that $200 in five minutes and sell a PDF about how to make a donation button in PayPal with a headline about making $2,400 an hour.
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  • Profile picture of the author Chri5123
    I hear you on this.

    However Clickbank offering the "no questions asked" refund policy actually saves them from a lot of bother down the line.

    Don't think they will change anything soon and totally understand why you would move your product away from CB - however will you make more with your product on another affiliate network that may not give you as many affiliates.

    Tough one to weight up, but I find that my CB products - some niches get way more refunds than others.

    If you are promoting something in the MMO niche for instance then it is "refund city" most of the time - most people that refund them are looking for the newest, next big thing!

    Chris
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    • Profile picture of the author Sid Hale
      Hi,

      Originally Posted by Chri5123 View Post

      Don't think they will change anything soon and totally understand why you would move your product away from CB - however will you make more with your product on another affiliate network that may not give you as many affiliates.
      Don't kid yourself.

      CB has a lot of affiliates registered, but they don't "give" them to anyone. A huge portion of them will 1) never find your product, and/or 2) be largely ineffective in their pre-sales efforts. The affiliate network at CB, or any other marketplace, is just a "pool" of affiliates, making it easier to find them in one place, but attracting/recruiting affiliates from that pool is still required.

      The size of the "pool" is not the primary issue. There are other networks with sufficient numbers of affiliates, and fewer products competing for their attention. A higher percentage of the affiliates in the newer networks will also be more active/aggressive affiliates (How many affiliates who sign up for an affiliate network are even active after a year or two? Are they still counted in the size of the affiliate pool?).

      More important than number of affiliates are 1) the ratio of affiliates to competing offers, 2) the research tools made available to the affiliates, and 3) what kind of promotional tools are provided for a given product. All of those (and probably some I haven't thought of), will help attract more affiliates for a product, and help make them more effective as sellers of your product.
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      • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
        Originally Posted by Sid Hale View Post

        CB has a lot of affiliates registered, but they don't "give" them to anyone.
        Another way to put this: affiliate networks don't have affiliates. PRODUCTS have affiliates. If your product isn't attractive to affiliates, joining a big network will not magically produce any.
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  • Profile picture of the author williamrs
    IMO, this problem is caused for 2 reasons:

    1 - Clickbank is full of crap. There can be good products there, but they don't represent more than 5% of what's being sold on that marketplace. And the worse the products the higher the refund rate.

    2 - CB make it incredibly easy to get a refund and people are already used to get their money back withing minutes of buying the product. Many people already buy stuff on CB with the intention of asking for a refund right after finishing the download.

    It's always the same buyers and the same sellers using CB. People list crap and others buy it just out of curiosity already expecting to get crap and, therefore, request a refund.

    IMO, it's not possible to build a solid, serious business on CB now. It doesn't matter if you're an affiliate or a vendor. So, I'm no longer using CB. I don't promote their products to my subscribers and don't list my own products there. There are many other (better) options out there and I think that sticking with CB is wasting time, money and credibility.


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    • Profile picture of the author Chri5123
      Originally Posted by williamrs View Post

      IMO, this problem is caused for 2 reasons:

      1 - Clickbank is full of crap. There can be good products there, but they don't represent more than 5% of what's being sold on that marketplace. And the worse the products the higher the refund rate.

      2 - CB make it incredibly easy to get a refund and people are already used to get their money back withing minutes of buying the product. Many people already buy stuff on CB with the intention of asking for a refund right after finishing the download.

      It's always the same buyers and the same sellers using CB. People list crap and others buy it just out of curiosity already expecting to get crap and, therefore, request a refund.




      W
      I agree with some of your points and think that they need to add an additional customer service section or allow you to pick the refund policy you want to give.

      Originally Posted by williamrs View Post

      IMO, it's not possible to build a solid, serious business on CB now. It doesn't matter if you're an affiliate or a vendor. So, I'm no longer using CB. I don't promote their products to my subscribers and don't list my own products there. There are many other (better) options out there and I think that sticking with CB is wasting time, money and credibility.
      ^ That bit I don't agree with. My accountant would beg to differ as well after advising me to go limited due to earnings 70% from Clickbank.

      So I would say that I have a solid, serious business on CB - yes they have their downsides but we are talking about the wide open refund policy.

      In most cases if the product is SOLID you will not get loads of refunds from the REAL buyers - i.e not other affiliates, marketers, freebie seekers.

      Most WSO's have a refund policy as well and I have seen many businesses started there too.

      Chris
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      • Profile picture of the author williamrs
        Originally Posted by Chri5123 View Post

        I agree with some of your points and think that they need to add an additional customer service section or allow you to pick the refund policy you want to give.



        ^ That bit I don't agree with. My accountant would beg to differ as well after advising me to go limited due to earnings 70% from Clickbank.

        So I would say that I have a solid, serious business on CB - yes they have their downsides but we are talking about the wide open refund policy.

        In most cases if the product is SOLID you will not get loads of refunds from the REAL buyers - i.e not other affiliates, marketers, freebie seekers.

        Most WSO's have a refund policy as well and I have seen many businesses started there too.

        Chris

        It can be possible outside the IM niche, but for people selling IM stuff (the vast majority of CB big vendors are in this niche) I think that are much better routes.

        And it's not just because they have a refund policy. As you said, WSOs also do and the refund rate of most WSOs is incredibly lower in comparison with CB products. While it's easy to find many products on CB hitting a refund rate as high as 50%, on Warrior Plus it's rare to see products with more than 3%.

        So, the problem is that their refund policy sucks, the products are horrible (there are a few exceptions, of course) and people seem to be addicted to buy CB products just out of curiosity and then ask for a refund few minutes later. This addiction is probably something that exists only in the IM niche, because there is where most recurring buyers are, so this is the reason why I believe it can be easier to get a solid product on CB when targeting a different niche.

        Anyway, CB products' reputation couldn't be worse among buyers, so most good sellers seem to be leaving the marketplace and it indicates that things will get even worse.

        I certainly understand that you may have a profitable business there (you wouldn't be the only one I know), but the fact is that if you're selling IM products chances are that you're also losing a lot of money for "playing on CB". Of course, I don't know your business, so it's possible to say I'm speculating. But let's be honest, refund rates above 50% are ridiculous. It's not doing business, it's people playing of "buying crap & requesting refunds". The sellers try to sell as many copies as possible in the hope that some won't be refunded, while the buyers buy dozens of useless products just to store them in their hard disk and never use anything that they learn.


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  • Profile picture of the author kencalhn
    can't you guys help reduce that by simply offering bonuses that are delivered 60+ days after initial purchase? eg they get the main product immediately, but you offer some drip content/stuff after refund deadline, to help prevent the serial refunders? i don't know details re cb tos but if possible I'd look into delayed-delivery of content that's bonus stuff as a reward for sticking around and not refunding, and of course the bonus stuff should be better than or at least equal to the main download product quality
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  • Profile picture of the author aaaa33030
    Chargebacks have a $35 fee
    Clickbank is trying to avoid chargeback fees by allowing refunds

    Simply lock the digital product or use membership login for each purchaser

    If any refund disable opening of the digital product or disable login for the refunder
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  • Profile picture of the author mike_somerville
    Lol, when you mail for a clickbank product expect at least 20 - 50 % refunds ! Anyone in the BIZ OPP area wants to steal the content and get their money back. The kicker is they don't realize that karma is a B****
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  • Profile picture of the author stesnees
    I have a 0% refund rate on Clickbank so far.
    Mind you thats just 2 sales and no refunds :-)
    I probably need to do a little more with CB!
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  • Profile picture of the author celente
    I make my living with clickbank, and you just have to factor in refunds...they are going to happen, so just have to accept it.

    But here are my top 3 tips for decreasing refunds.

    1) Email your client and ask them what you can help them with after the sale. People like to get emails from real people and not just some responder program.

    2) Soon as someone buys, congratulate them...and send them 2 freebies over the following days. This has helped decrease our refunds by 28%.

    3) Ask them quickly why they did decide to refund. Ok you are going to hear those dicky idiotic stories, but some of the feedback will help you see what you could be doing wrong, or not providing. Something as simple as this helped save one of my mates businesses here in oz. Its very good way to show you what you are doing right and what you are doing wrong.
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  • Profile picture of the author jivens
    Banned
    I don't think his problem is quality. I think his problem is that there are a TON of scammers that get refunds on all their purchases on clickbank within MINUTES. I personally think this is a result of a lot of BUYERS FEELING LIKE THEY GOT SCAMMED, and naturally they want to stick it to the man so to speak. I have no doubt in the OP'S quality. I'm just saying that there is sooooooooooo much crap being sold out there that it's becoming quite obvious that it's all rehashed information and it's becoming predictable. So long as theres crap info out there this problem will continue and probably rise.
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  • Profile picture of the author John Romaine
    Thanks for sharing that link with us Harvey.

    Interestingly enough, I tried repeatedly to post a comment on that blog and it wouldnt accept my captcha code.

    Can these morons get anything right?????
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  • Profile picture of the author Dresden14
    I dont have clickbank, in fact I dont sell ebooks or software online or anything. Theres two questions to be asked; (1) If your issuing $600 in refunds, how much are you making (Dont need to answer). But its your making like $6k;, 10% I guess is ok. But if your making $800 and refunding $600, you have a MAJOR problem. (2) I would eliminate clickbank, and offer the software/ebook or whatever it is your selling outside that network. Get a merchant account, to where they pay you directly. It would be much, much more complex to file a dispute/.refund. It would require affidavidts, through banks, etc. - so this would minimize refunds. I probably get a 3-5% dispute/refund when it comes to my business.
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  • Profile picture of the author Alex Blades
    It's part of the business, so it makes no sense to get all worked up over it. With clickbank, you need a "I'll believe it when I see it" policy. Meaning don't count on any sales until the check is in your hands
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  • Profile picture of the author Marvin Johnston
    I wish I could find the newsletter link, but Gary Halbert had a similar complaint from one of his clients. I think this particular example was too many bounced checks.

    But Gary's question was "Are you making money?"

    This is probably an appropriate question to ask here.

    Marvin
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  • Profile picture of the author nicheblogger75
    I am totally sick of CB refunds. About two months ago, I stopped promoting CB altogether after having a $234 day and then losing EVERY sale made that day within a week to refunds!

    The products are hyped up and then priced too high. People get mad when they spend $37 or $47 on a product and then it doesn't deliver the promised results. I am now promoting strictly RapBank and WSO's.

    The thing is that you can get awesome WSO's for $10-$20 that deliver the goods. Also, both of the above mentioned pay you instant commissions. What's better than that?
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    • Profile picture of the author webmazter
      Originally Posted by nicheblogger75 View Post

      I am totally sick of CB refunds. About two months ago, I stopped promoting CB altogether after having a $234 day and then losing EVERY sale made that day within a week to refunds!

      The products are hyped up and then priced too high. People get mad when they spend $37 or $47 on a product and then it doesn't deliver the promised results. I am now promoting strictly RapBank and WSO's.

      The thing is that you can get awesome WSO's for $10-$20 that deliver the goods. Also, both of the above mentioned pay you instant commissions. What's better than that?
      Good place to be my friend Rap-bank has been very good to me I get all my money up front without no hassles but let me give you a tip because I keep it real always choose 100% and make sure your index is at least 30 or more everything goes straight to pay pal as far as refunds well I have have been lucky so far I normally buy and test a product before I even think about promoting it good luck!
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      • Profile picture of the author nicheblogger75
        Originally Posted by webmazter View Post

        Good place to be my friend Rap-bank has been very good to me I get all my money up front without no hassles but let me give you a tip because I keep it real always choose 100% and make sure your index is at least 30 or more everything goes straight to pay pal as far as refunds well I have have been lucky so far I normally buy and test a product before I even think about promoting it good luck!
        RapBank is awesome. I'm also a Vendor Plus member, and have found it very lucrative to list a lot of MRR and PLR products (the PLR I revamp).

        That's what you mostly found on RapBank. There are a lot of original products as well (including some of mine), but a lot of them are MRR. However, I have found that most MRR products are pretty high quality.

        Promoting WSO's, IMO, is far better than promoting clickbank products. The reason being is that you can look at a WSO thread and read what people have posted. In this way, you can see if folks like th eproduct.

        I have probably sold hundreds of WSO's to my list and have onley had to give two refunds. Not to mention that it's instant commissions to your Paypal account.

        Instant commission affiliate marketign is definitely the wave of the future. The products may be lower priced, but with a lower price comes far less chance of refund requests.

        I have often been able to work with folks who request refunds from instant commisison products as well. For instance, they might say that the product did not address their problem or wasn't what they expected.

        Well, chances are I have another MRR or PLR product on my hard drivethat they will love, and I can offer them that in exchange for a refund. Peoplw would usually much rather have the answer to their problem than their money back, especially if they only spent $10 or $15 on the product.

        Or, many times I can just answer their questions myself, building trust and repeat buyers in the process.

        Bottom line: Sure, refunds are a part of this business, but it's become common knowledge that a buyer can purchase a Clickbank product and then get a refund the next day, whether they like the product or not.

        Clickbank will be around a long time, but if they don't adapt to the current trend of instant commissions, they won't be able to compete forever.
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  • Profile picture of the author Cool Hand Luke
    Here's a hint folks: Don't market to the IM crowd, and your refund rates with CB will go WAAAAAAAY down...Yes, I'm speaking from experience.

    Either way, refunds are a part of ANY business. Getting frustrated over it every time it happens is simply a waste of time. Concentrate on earning more money and ignore the few people with the poverty-mentality who want a refund for everything. Odds are, most of them probably wouldn't have bought your product on CB if they didn't have such a lax refund system anyways.
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    • Profile picture of the author John Romaine
      Originally Posted by Cool Hand Luke View Post

      Either way, refunds are a part of ANY business.
      Theres a big difference between refunds and intentional theft.

      Walk into a store, buy a product, then as you're being handed your change, tell them you've "changed your mind" and you want a refund, AND you want to keep the product.

      You'd be hauled out of there on your arse by security.
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      • Profile picture of the author frankm
        Originally Posted by ramone_johnny View Post

        Theres a big difference between refunds and intentional theft.

        Walk into a store, buy a product, then as you're being handed your change, tell them you've "changed your mind" and you want a refund, AND you want to keep the product.

        You'd be hauled out of there on your arse by security.
        It's more like walking into a store, buying a product and the store owner saying "If you don't like the product I'll refund your money and you can keep the product since it didn't cost me anything to make one extra copy of it"
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        • Profile picture of the author John Romaine
          Originally Posted by frankm View Post

          It's more like walking into a store, buying a product and the store owner saying "If you don't like the product I'll refund your money and you can keep the product since it didn't cost me anything to make one extra copy of it"
          Which is exactly why Im currently developing a physical info-product. Because it WILL cost me money to produce extra copies. And the product will need to be returned upon a refund request.

          Your example above, further illustrates just how easy it would be for a shopper (clickbank customer) to run out of the store and tell everybody how they can "get something for nothing"

          Which I believe is the customer trend developing around Clickbank.
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          • Profile picture of the author Colin Palfrey
            Originally Posted by ramone_johnny View Post

            Which is exactly why Im currently developing a physical info-product. Because it WILL cost me money to produce extra copies. And the product will need to be returned upon a refund request.

            Your example above, further illustrates just how easy it would be for a shopper (clickbank customer) to run out of the store and tell everybody how they can "get something for nothing"

            Which I believe is the customer trend developing around Clickbank.
            This seems a good option to me. I know people on here seem to think that physical products are harder to sell but I've not found this.

            Sure people love the idea of 'instant' but they also like the idea of actually getting something, which it's always hard to appreciate you have done with a digital product.

            We understand that a digital product is a real product as we make them. I'm still not 100% convinced the rest of the world feels this way. Most people like to hold something in their hands to appreciate its value.

            That's just my opinion based on casual observations, admittedly. People shouldn't knock the physical product model though, I'm not convinced it's as dead as many say. A course or eBook that is printed out or put on CD has a physical presence on their desk, whereas everyone knows how files disappear.

            I've almost talked myself into this now lol.

            Regards,
            Colin Palfrey
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            • Profile picture of the author John Romaine
              Originally Posted by Colin Palfrey View Post

              Most people like to hold something in their hands to appreciate its value.
              I tend to agree Colin, especially for higher priced items. I could however, be wrong. Ill have to test this and measure the response.

              Ill be focusing on selling this product in physical form, but also in digital format, at a cheaper price, for those that request it.
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              • Profile picture of the author Sid Hale
                Two things to consider as you go forward with this, Johnny...

                Originally Posted by ramone_johnny View Post

                I tend to agree Colin, especially for higher priced items. I could however, be wrong. Ill have to test this and measure the response.
                By converting to a physical info product, your lower priced items could become medium priced items, and... your medium priced items could become higher priced items. The simple fact that you are selling a physical product will increase the perceived value, and allow you to charge a higher price.

                Ill be focusing on selling this product in physical form, but also in digital format, at a cheaper price, for those that request it.
                Rather than offering a lower-priced downloadable (which still leaves you open to those refund problems), consider ONLY selling the physical product, so that you can require the actual return of the product to receive a refund, and ALWAYS providing a downloadable copy to satisfy any need your customer may have for immediate gratification.

                It's the best of both worlds, and when your physical copy arrives in the customer's mail, they can be presented with additional upsell offers (i.e. include a discount coupon for another of your related products).

                Everybody wins!
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                • Profile picture of the author John Romaine
                  Originally Posted by Sid Hale View Post

                  Two things to consider as you go forward with this, Johnny...



                  By converting to a physical info product, your lower priced items could become medium priced items, and... your medium priced items could become higher priced items. The simple fact that you are selling a physical product will increase the perceived value, and allow you to charge a higher price.



                  Rather than offering a lower-priced downloadable (which still leaves you open to those refund problems), consider ONLY selling the physical product, so that you can require the actual return of the product to receive a refund, and ALWAYS providing a downloadable copy to satisfy any need your customer may have for immediate gratification.

                  It's the best of both worlds, and when your physical copy arrives in the customer's mail, they can be presented with additional upsell offers (i.e. include a discount coupon for another of your related products).

                  Everybody wins!

                  Hey Sid, some great ideas here, which Ill definitely take onboard. Especially the download option, which I think might be very useful for customers that have purchased, and perhaps their item becomes lost in transit.

                  Thanks.
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  • Profile picture of the author Sid Hale
    This is very true, and key to the whole discussion.

    PS - Everyone needs to also understand that
    Clickbank considers every customer a Clickbank
    customer - they really don't care about you or
    your product. They care about making their
    money and taking care of the merchant accounts -
    they aren't going to change.
    That's because they ARE Clickbank's customers, but they have no ability to support those customers, and no way to insure that the product owner does. Automatic refund is the only way to insure that their nose is kept clean with their merchant accounts.

    They can afford to lose a large percentage of their merchants before risking even a single merchant account, or their Paypal account.
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  • Profile picture of the author robp12
    That's rough. A good refund policy is a wonderful thing that can help ease the mind of potential buyers, but intentional refunders are severely taking advantage of this. There will be always be people who abuse policies and take advantage of them, hopefully the changes you enact will help minimize their effect though.
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    • Profile picture of the author Ross Bowring
      Here's a couple ways to discourage people from refunding in your sales copy...

      1. Frame your product as a "lifelong reference"...

      Take them into the future and have them turn to your product again and again for solutions.

      "Don't be surprised if five years from now you're still pulling out my XYZ guide and turning to it for fast answers to any XYZ questions."

      2. Address the refund issue head-on and incorporate it into the value build, usually after the guarantee...

      "I know what you're thinking...

      A guarantee this strong leaves me open to a few low-lifes, taking these exclusive tactics... using them to change their life, and then requesting a refund.

      Well, you know what... I'm okay with that. I'm willing to put up with a couple "tools" to make sure good people like you can afford to XYZ."

      Obviously, none of this will elimate serial refunders entirely, but it can put a dent in the numbers.

      --- Ross
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  • Profile picture of the author Paul200
    Its part of doing bussiness and in this day and age im not really suprised. Even with tangible goods you will get both credit card fraud and refunds no matter which processor you use. If you think mainstream is bad try adult and you will see the amount of CC fraud which is actually going on. Im suprised Visa hasent pulled the plug on a lot of high risk online sales yet tbh.
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  • Profile picture of the author JoeHughes
    Not sure what the product is but if it's a video product I would make it so you can only view the videos in a members area. That way soon as they refund you can cut off their access.

    I had a product in the self defense market that was refunding at 7% but soon as I moved to the members area it's dropped to less than 2%!
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  • Profile picture of the author kingleo101
    That's alot in refunds. I guess we have to keep in mind that there are people who purchase products only to ask for a refund later just to get their money back and get the product for free. It sucks big time 4sure
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  • Profile picture of the author sylarrr
    haven't you thought that maybe you just have a bad product?
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    • Profile picture of the author CyberAlien
      Originally Posted by sylarrr View Post

      haven't you thought that maybe you just have a bad product?
      That actually just depends on how he looks at it. I have bought a lot of stuff online that ended up being good products, but what made me upset was that it wasn't exactly as described. It doesn't mean I didn't like it, it just wasn't what I was expecting or looking for.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mark Singletary
      Originally Posted by sylarrr View Post

      haven't you thought that maybe you just have a bad product?
      I'm not sure about the quality of his product since I haven't bought it, but these are INSTANT refunders. In other words, these people didn't have a chance to discover yet whether the product was any good or not.

      Mark
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    • Profile picture of the author John Romaine
      Originally Posted by sylarrr View Post

      haven't you thought that maybe you just have a bad product?
      havent you read the entire thread?
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      • Profile picture of the author MikeTucker
        Originally Posted by JEasy View Post

        Wow I find it amazing that the consumer is always blamed for being stupid or whatever because they actually believed what the marketer presented. If the marketer says the cream will make you look younger, and was presented in a way that seemed legitimate, then why not believe that maybe this guy maybe has found something no one else has. That's what you all as marketers are selling.

        When it's not true, and the consumer realizes it, they'll take advantage of the money back guarantee. THAT'S WHAT IT'S THERE FOR. I don't know the OP, but if he's NOT marketing in the IM Niche and STILL had $600 in refunds, then he must be selling a bogus product. This is not the first thread I've read from this guy whining about Clickbank's refund policy.
        I've seen the word "whining" a lot in this thread... tough talking youth naivete. There is a difference between whining and an angry rant. And, he learned a lot from people who constructively posted different views and ideas... That's probably one of the factors why he is making more money than you.



        Originally Posted by sylarrr View Post

        haven't you thought that maybe you just have a bad product?
        Originally Posted by ramone_johnny View Post

        havent you read the entire thread?

        Even if you haven't read the entire thread, how can you two have been in the Warrior Forum this long and not know that Johnny is one of the good guys? He is a straight talker who doesn't see the point in lying, is humble and has openly admitted when he doesn't know something, has allowed himself to be corrected when he was wrong about something, and purposely resisted the temptation to jump into the IM niches because he doesn't feel like he could deliver the highest of quality yet.

        Which tells me that whatever niches he is promoting in (fitness judging by his avatar, ) his products are straightforward, honest, and they work.



        People who are requesting refunds immediately are stealing, plain and simple. It is mostly the fault of the thief, but I agree 100% that Clickbank needs to do something about this, for their own sake. As an affiliate, I like the refund guarantee, but I also know that a few people have stopped putting their best products up and are now only loading junk to build their buyer's lists.


        By the way, when you purchase a movie or CD at Wal-Mart (which is the distribution company, just as Clickbank distributes vendor products), you are not allowed to return it if you opened it... If it didn't function, they will give you a working copy, but you cannot get your money back.
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    • Profile picture of the author bobcarlsjr
      Originally Posted by sylarrr View Post

      haven't you thought that maybe you just have a bad product?
      lol........................

      firstly, the 3 minutes is stated by OP, no proof there..

      secondly, i can download a WSO, and if the first page looks like crap, or if files are missing, or the product is misrepresented wrongly on the selling page, i'd jump for a refund ASAP too.

      (just to note i have not asked anyone for a refund yet so don't start thinking i'm a serial refunder lol)
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  • Profile picture of the author Derek Soto
    How to solve this problem is to make people login to view your product and don't make a downloadable. They did this with FBInfluence. I thought it was very smart because I was having the same problem but on the warrior forum.

    If someone cancels three minutes after purchase, you cut off their password so it won't work anymore. And since they can't download your videos like FBInflunce does, it will cut down ALOT from people ripping you off at least, yes they will try, but in your sales letter you can tell them that this will happen and you can save a lot of frustration.

    That is why in my WSO's when I do them now, I put "NO REFUNDS" Because people here are serial refunders too.
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    • Profile picture of the author newjerseycrown
      Banned
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      • Profile picture of the author Derek Soto
        Originally Posted by newjerseycrown View Post

        As an affiliate I get very minimal refunds, but I think it all depends on the product. A majority of the products in the marketplace are completely worthless, which is why they enforce the refund policy. I've been promoting a new product and Ive gotten great recurring sales with them as an affiliate and so far 0 refunds.
        Yea, I've bought some stuff there that really sucked hardcore, but the people who get under your skin are the people who refund right after purchase. Maybe clickbank should make them try it for thirty days first.

        One of the things that I've done successfully is make people try my product for 90 days which is really what it would take to get the results they want for this particular product and then if they are not satisfied then they can cancel but since it's click bank, what you can do is sell something cheap and then send them to your own page with an upsell in the product delivery page and use CB as a lead gen
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  • Profile picture of the author Yeeee Ha
    Clickbank certainly needs to devise a strategy that prevents it from happening. Same day refunds on certain CB products always irks me a lot as an affiliate.
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  • Profile picture of the author thetrafficguy
    The downside is... if you own the product and cut Clickbank out (as I have done) you'll still get the refunds but the person who usually does this will also do chargebacks if they don't get it immediately.

    Get too many of those and your merchant account is shut down.

    Best thing to do I've found is block IP addys if you can track who it is (is consistent). Hard to do with first time buyers though.
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    • Profile picture of the author Derek Soto
      Originally Posted by Yeeee Ha View Post

      Clickbank certainly needs to devise a strategy that prevents it from happening. Same day refunds on certain CB products always irks me a lot as an affiliate.
      Yes, they should have a policy of like 30 days. How could you realistically apply anything in three minutes let alone a week and expect to get the results you want...

      Originally Posted by thetrafficguy View Post

      The downside is... if you own the product and cut Clickbank out (as I have done) you'll still get the refunds but the person who usually does this will also do chargebacks if they don't get it immediately.

      Get too many of those and your merchant account is shut down.

      Best thing to do I've found is block IP addys if you can track who it is (is consistent). Hard to do with first time buyers though.
      Yes, very true, however the intial membership would be from clickbank so a chargeback would be eaten by clickbank and you just loose your commission, Once you send them to the "product delivery page" and make them create a login , then you can give them their cb product, but then offer to upsell something through paypal, Paypal eats the chargebacks fees, you just lose the money for the sale, in my EXPERIENCE you get few and far between chargebacks when using paypal on your own and I've been doing this for 8 years
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      • Profile picture of the author Yeeee Ha
        Originally Posted by Derek Soto View Post

        Yes, they should have a policy of like 30 days. How could you realistically apply anything in three minutes let alone a week and expect to get the results you want...
        Exactly! The 3 minute refund thing that OP wrote about clearly indicates that the buyer took advantage of the refund policy and got the product for free.
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      • Profile picture of the author myob
        Coming from the perspective of an affiliate, Clickbank's refund policy is a major selling point in all of my promotions and recommendations. If I notice refund rates above a threshold or vendor gaming, the product is immediately dropped. There are over 15,000 Clickbank products for affiliates to choose from, so there is no reason for anyone to have to put up with any of this nonsense. This issue needs to resolved by the vendor.
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  • Profile picture of the author eniggma
    I agree that Clickbank's no fuss refund policy needs a little more discretion added into it. They are running off the old school frame of mind that the customer is always right and with all the scammers out there that is not the case. They need to add more terms to the policy for sure.
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  • Profile picture of the author aaaa33030
    I just found this on the return and policy page (hxxp://www.clickbank.com/return_policy.html) and think that customers should be aware of it: ->Abuse of the Return Policy ->Customers requesting serial or repeated returns may be blocked from making further purchases.
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  • Profile picture of the author RichardDean
    Can you just send me your product so I don't have to go through the refund process..HEHE

    The real funny thing is we have been saying this for years back in the day we had a WF thread of the best refund reasons... We would buy each others product knowingly of course then send a request to CB asking the most crazy excuses for the refund...

    the two I did that really sticks out in my head are:

    I farted and did not like the smell I want a refund : They granted the refund...

    I lifted up my pants and noticed I had one black sock and one blue sock on I want a refund: They granted it.

    The one above I used in my guarantee for years.

    One of my friends Mark he got so pissed off at refunds he changed to only mail order for his products. No online processing at all.

    Do what a lot of us did stop using CB it don't matter your good affiliates will follow. Just give them some warning and make it easy for them to convert over.. Still leave the CB up so old back links will still make sales just convert over slow and easy.

    Richard
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  • Profile picture of the author RLINKEN
    Read through this thread.

    Some people stated "Who cares about refunds"... EVERYONE should care.

    I take EXTREME Pride and VALUE in what I offer. Repeat refunders are STEALING
    from you, just like any other thief. So not being a fan of people stealing from you
    is def. ok in my book.

    As for how to deal with it. I always have a "Cool Free Gift" marketed to customers that I "didn't include in the (purchased) product that I'll get to them in the first week or so.."

    Just as an added thank you... (I talk about trust, integrity, and how they are part of my family and I'm here to help em'... then I get them with an upcoming freebie...

    I always get a badass hook/overdeliver on the gift to keep them around for that first week, I give it to them 4-7 days after purchase. That will cutdown on instarefunders a bit, as well as give you a chance to instill goodwill and integrity in them...

    Lastly, my assistant checks ALL REFUNDS, and works directly with clickbank to instantly ban all buyers who do this... It works well!
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    • Interesting,

      Having seen a tremendous increase in refunds as well, it got me curious as to what is the current average ratio of refunds now given this recession is hurting every business. With so much junk out there, I can only see this getting worse, not better, and given everyone is hitting the same people with the same next best hottest deals, it does not look good to me as my refunds are pushing 42% now, ouch, not on my own products, but the usual hottest deal of the week on Clickbank.

      Success to all,
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  • Profile picture of the author Jon Patrick
    When I get a refund request, the first thing I do is change the ticket to "technical support" and ask the customer if they are having some problem using the product that I can help them with. This strategy has resulted in quite a few people changing their minds about wanting refunds.
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    • Profile picture of the author Harvey Segal
      Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

      When I get a refund request, the first thing I do is change the ticket to "technical support" and ask the customer if they are having some problem using the product that I can help them with.
      You might need to be careful about this

      See Customer Support Ticket System

      "While you have the ability to close a ticket or change a refund or cancelation request to technical support, you may only do so with the customer's permission"

      .
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      • Profile picture of the author Jon Patrick
        Originally Posted by Harvey Segal View Post

        You might need to be careful about this

        See Customer Support Ticket System

        "While you have the ability to close a ticket or change a refund or cancelation request to technical support, you may only do so with the customer's permission"

        .
        I hadn't seen that, Harvey. Thank you. It does still appear to be worth it, since, even if it became an issue, the penalty wouldn't matter all that much (relative to the status quo of not changing tickets to "technical support" in the first place).
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  • Profile picture of the author michaelcorvin
    It's the nature of the beast. The reality is that the 60 day guarantee will help you with your sales. I have CB product that I launched in the past and can honestly say we never had refunds like that. Because the content we offered them was WAY more than we told them in the pitch page. If people buy your product, and don't like it, of course they are going to immediately refund.

    Take a look at the value of what you are providing. But yes, Clickbanks policies can be a pain.

    Michael
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  • Profile picture of the author MattCatania
    The first person that develops software which will allow the destruction of files the second a refund is granted, or encrypt the ebook itself so that it's unreadable, is somebody who will be well sort after all over the IM community.

    I have no programming experience, but I'm sure something could be created.

    There's a product and a starving crowd right there! :p
    Signature

    Logic outweighs all.

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    • Profile picture of the author HeySal
      Originally Posted by MattCatania View Post

      The first person that develops software which will allow the destruction of files the second a refund is granted, or encrypt the ebook itself so that it's unreadable, is somebody who will be well sort after all over the IM community.

      I have no programming experience, but I'm sure something could be created.

      There's a product and a starving crowd right there! :p
      Exactly what I was thinking. Think of how few refunds CB would get if they had a way for vendors to protect their products from theft. Theft is NOT okay. What is to stop a theif from selling YOUR products?

      I never use CB anymore. I had one product that I was selling with a 0 refund rate - and put it on CB. All of the sudden the refunds were so high I might as well have just passed the damned thing out. I got off there fast.

      There is one product I really want to promote, but he went and stuck it on CB, so I'm really not sure I want to deal with all the bs again. You'd hope that with all the SOPA stuff going on people would stop the piracy, but it doesn't look like the idiots care about much but their own little world.

      When CB puts out a means to destroy refunded products, I will consider affiliating again. Never will be a vendor there again, though.
      Signature

      Sal
      When the Roads and Paths end, learn to guide yourself through the wilderness
      Beyond the Path

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  • Profile picture of the author bkdubs
    I know of 1 person that buys from clickbank with credit card and the refunds to his paypal account as he has problems with paypal and that's how he gets money into it.

    I am sure he is not the only one that is using it to just put money in their accounts..
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  • Profile picture of the author Linerider
    I've been promoting (as an affiliate) a 'get your ex back' product on ClickBank. Sales have been great and low refunds, until about 58 days after my first day selling this product, then BAM! Refunds coming in now. People requesting the refund just before the 60 days are up. I made most of my sales to the US and Canada and a minority to the UK, yet every single one of the refund requests came from Britain.
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  • Profile picture of the author Peter ONeill
    Originally Posted by John Romaine View Post


    Ive lost $600 in sales this month due to refund requests, and ALL of them have been processed in just MINUTES after the transaction was completed.
    Yeah refunds can be frustrating... especially with the intentional refunders... But it important to remember with these guys you have not lost any money... They never intended to pay for your product and if the guarantee wasn't there they wouldn't have bought at all....Still I know that is frustrating as I have experienced it myself.
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  • Profile picture of the author NoviIM
    Yea that is why I tend to stay away from promoting digital products... too many refunds.
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  • Profile picture of the author Curtis2011
    Originally Posted by John Romaine View Post

    Ive lost $600 in sales this month due to refund requests, and ALL of them have been processed in just MINUTES after the transaction was completed.

    Had another one today, processed just 3 minutes after purchase.
    If they instantly refunded your product, then the chances are high that with no refund policy available, they never would have bought the product to begin with.

    So no, you have no "lost" $600 in sales. Refunds are part of the cost of doing business.

    Also... maybe your product just sucks? It's a possibility. Or your marketing may be deceptive and misrepresenting your product, so a buyer is disappointed when he gets his hands on it.

    Originally Posted by MikeTucker View Post

    People who are requesting refunds immediately are stealing, plain and simple.
    I disagree.

    First of all, it doesn't even meet the definition of "stealing", because the seller is offering a refund policy that is (usually) no-questions-asked. Offering a no-questions-asked refund policy, then crying about people asking for refunds, seems immature or at least something that an inexperienced businessperson would do.

    Also, personal anecdote: I once bought a $147 ebook that I thought would be useful to me. I opened it up, took one look at it and realized that the business model it described was not something I was really interested in, and asked for a refund less than 20 minutes after I had bought it. I deleted the ebook and never took another look at any of the materials I had gotten the refund for.

    So, just from that personal example, I can tell you that it is possible that some customers get the product and think "this isn't what I really wanted/expected" and since you offer a 100% satisfaction guaranteed refund, they take advantage of it.

    Instead of "stealing" the product, it's more like "browsing" the product, at least in some cases such as mine.

    If you don't like that this happens, then simply don't offer a refund. And if ClickBank requires a refund policy, then simply use a different ebook distributor. There are tons out there. You could also probably hire some cheap programmers to create your own payment/distribution system if you really wanted 100% control.
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    • Profile picture of the author marco005
      Hi,

      Oh, better I avoid to chosse cb as an affiliate.

      Are there better alternatives to cb for us affiliates to avoid high refund thiefs?

      best wishes
      marco005
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  • Profile picture of the author nav123
    That really sux man. Anyway thanks for sharing your experience with us. This would help us to be more careful.
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