If someone scammed you, will you do this?

by Adie
41 replies
I admit that with the services we are providing online everyday, there are certain times that we get scammed by even one of our longterm customers when things goes upside down.

My brother-in-law who is a freelance graphic artist got scammed by one of this long-term customers ignoring his emails and calls for more than 2 weeks now after he delivered a design worth $1600. We consider that person a "long-term customer" because he has been ordering custom graphis designs for more than 8 months already and transacted more than $20k ever since they started working.

Now my brother feels helpless because he is leaving in Australia while that customer is an American leaving in US, so the possibility of bringing that case with lawyers is not viable considering the location and the not-too-big amount involved.

He is planning to create a webpage with that person's name and SEO it, alerting everyone to avoid him.

Will this be a good idea?

adie
#scammed
  • Profile picture of the author Lucian Lada
    The internet is huge, I do not think this will resolve the problem.
    Just a question: what does the design that the costumer didn't pay consists of ?
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    • Profile picture of the author Adie
      Originally Posted by canyon View Post

      The internet is huge, I do not think this will resolve the problem.
      Just a question: what does the design that the costumer didn't pay consist of ?
      It's a whole website design for an online casino site...
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      • Profile picture of the author Lucian Lada
        Originally Posted by Adie View Post

        It's a whole website design for an online casino site...
        If you want to get revenge, you could set up lots of websites with similar domain that the costumer has, and with the design that your brother made for the costumer.
        Here's the trick: this might sound lame, but include whenever possible the whole story so people will know that the owner of the online casino is not serious.

        It's part revenge, part warning to potential costumers. (after all, if the guy didn't pay the designer of the website, why would he pay the players?)

        Please do not interpret this as a lame joke, it might be useful even if it looks strange.
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        • Profile picture of the author JB Jiles
          Banned
          Originally Posted by canyon View Post

          If you want to get revenge, you could set up lots of websites with similar domain that the costumer has, and with the design that your brother made for the costumer.
          Here's the trick: this might sound lame, but include whenever possible the whole story so people will know that the owner of the online casino is not serious.

          It's part revenge, part warning to potential costumers. (after all, if the didn't pay the designer of the website, why would he pay the players?)

          Please do not interpret this as a lame joke, it might be useful even if it looks strange.
          Sounds like a lot of effort to put into a vengeful act. How much peace do you believe that would bring the avenger? The flip side of exacting revenge would be to find an answer in the Act of Charity, which goes something like this: O my God, I love Thee above all things, with my whole heart and soul, because Thou art all-good and worthy of all my love. I love my neighbor as myself for love of Thee. I forgive all who have injured me, and ask pardon of all whom I have injured. Amen.

          Surely much more difficult to put into practice than said or recited, but if peace is the ultimate objective, which it always is whether consciously acknowledged or not, then the best course of action is found within those words if the customer indeed never pays his invoice..
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          • Profile picture of the author Lucian Lada
            Originally Posted by JB Jiles View Post

            Sounds like a lot of effort to put into a vengeful act. How much peace do you believe that would bring the avenger? The flip side of exacting revenge would be to find an answer in the Act of Charity, which goes something like this: O my God, I love Thee above all things, with my whole heart and soul, because Thou art all-good and worthy of all my love. I love my neighbor as myself for love of Thee. I forgive all who have injured me, and ask pardon of all whom I have injured. Amen.

            Surely much more difficult to put into practice than said or recited, but if peace is the ultimate objective, which it always is whether consciously acknowledged or not, then the best course of action is found within those words if the customer indeed never pays his invoice..
            The OP said the websites could be SEO-ed. That means the owner will see the websites sooner or later. If he is a normal human being and gets scared that his business can be ruined, he will contact the OP brother in law and give him he money in exchange to take the websites down.

            It might or it might not work, but sitting aside and hoping for a miracle won't do any good. The guy worked a lot to make those $1,600 worth of designs so I don't think peace is something he thinks about right now.
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            • Profile picture of the author Adie
              Originally Posted by canyon View Post

              The OP said the websites could be SEO-ed. That means the owner will see the websites sooner or later. If he is a normal human being and gets scared that his business can be ruined, he will contact the OP brother in law and give him he money in exchange to take the websites down.

              It might or it might not work, but sitting aside and hoping for a miracle won't do any good. The guy worked a lot to make those $1,600 worth of designs so I don't think peace is something he thinks about right now.
              Well, the content might be harder to track because that was just a deisgn that does not include the domain... The design used a lot of flash and javas thingee for casino games... My brother is planning to set-up a page with "John Doe's names scammer" on it with details... That is his plan... I think it's harder to think about DMCA if he can't track the content... That customer was just a contractor and I think his customer didn't pay him as well, that's why he didn't pay my brother.... chain reaction...
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    • Profile picture of the author emarketive
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      • Profile picture of the author jmdw99
        When approaching a nonpayment situation, I always keep my end game in mind. Foremost, I want to get paid for the work completed. Secondly, I want to retain what could still be a paying customer. A revenge tactic will do nothing but eat up time and energy you can give to other clients. Plus, launching a negative campaign against a once loyal customer can easily tarnish your reputation.

        This scenario happens all too often in the writing world - even with the big name players. Years ago I threatened an editor for printing articles without sending notification or payment. I was paid quickly, but burned an editor in a high circulation paper. Come to find out, there was an issue with a new accounting system.

        Now when I have a problem with payment, I always offer a payment plan based on "tough economic times." This gives them the opportunity to give an explanation and save face. Sometimes their pride kicks in and you receive immediate payment. One thing is for certain, you have a much better chance of getting paid if you work with - not against- the client.
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  • Profile picture of the author Cru
    Originally Posted by Adie View Post

    I admit that with the services we are providing online everyday, there are certain times that we get scammed by even one of our longterm customers when things goes upside down.

    My brother-in-law who is a freelance graphic artist got scammed by one of this long-term customers ignoring his emails and calls for more than 2 weeks now after he delivered a design worth $1600. We consider that person a "long-term customer" because he has been ordering custom graphis designs for more than 8 months already and transacted more than $20k ever since they started working.

    Now my brother feels helpless because he is leaving in Australia while that customer is an American leaving in US, so the possibility of bringing that case with lawyers is not viable considering the location and the not-too-big amount involved.

    He is planning to create a webpage with that person's name and SEO it, alerting everyone to avoid him.

    Will this be a good idea?

    adie
    Not a great idea.

    If he is utilizing these graphics in anything online I would find the website and put up a DMCA complaint stating the infringing work. He would have to prove that he has the rights to the graphics which he could not since he doesn't have a receipt or any other record of transaction.
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    • Profile picture of the author jackpot9
      Originally Posted by Cru View Post

      Not a great idea.

      If he is utilizing these graphics in anything online I would find the website and put up a DMCA complaint stating the infringing work. He would have to prove that he has the rights to the graphics which he could not since he doesn't have a receipt or any other record of transaction.
      What he said. It just doesn't sound very feasible to SEO warning service providers not to work with that dude.
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  • Profile picture of the author Nail Yener
    Are you sure the person is ignoring your brother-in-law's contact attempts? I don't see any reason for that since you said that this person already paid over $20k in the last months. Maybe something unexpected happened on his side?
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  • Originally Posted by Adie View Post

    We consider that person a "long-term customer" because he has been ordering custom graphis designs for more than 8 months already and transacted more than $20k ever since they started working.
    Are you sure something hasn't happened to the customer? It doesn't make sense that he would do $20k's worth of business with you and then rip you off?

    Do you have any idea if he has used your content? Can you see it on his website etc?
    I've often wondered what would happen if I sold someone an e-book and then (god forbid) something happened to me. They would never know, and would also think I had scammed them if they ever tried to contact me.

    Just a thought though.
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  • Profile picture of the author Paul200
    Nope I wouldent put his name up on the web but I would try and sort out a payment plan or something else with him if he cant afford to pay the full amount up front. I think by being flexible in hard times will get you a lot of respect and more biz. If that dosent work and you know his urls then I would look out for him using the graphics and send him or his host a DMCA request.
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    • Profile picture of the author Lucian Lada
      Originally Posted by Paul200 View Post

      send him or his host a DMCA request.
      Good point! I never thought of that. This could be even better and time efficient too!

      Why didn't I thought of that before? Erm.. and I'm in law school...
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      • Profile picture of the author Kay King
        He is planning to create a webpage with that person's name and SEO it, alerting everyone to avoid him.

        Will this be a good idea?
        Very bad idea.


        If the customer has been good in the past and has paid on time - there may be more going on than you know.

        When a writing client "disappeared" after I sent off a project to him, it was due to an unexpected death in his family. When I received the payment and apology three weeks later I was glad I had kept a professional attitude rather than resorting to multiple emails or attempts to "get back at him".

        Getting revenge doesn't pay off well. If the site has been placed online a DMCA might be possible (don't know as I'm not a lawyer).

        Keep communications businesslike and professional. It's easier to ignore someone who is ranting than someone who is reminding you of your obligations.
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      • Profile picture of the author Regional Warrior
        Originally Posted by canyon View Post

        Good point! I never thought of that. This could be even better and time efficient too!

        Why didn't I thought of that before? Erm.. and I'm in law school...
        You will go far
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        • Profile picture of the author igorGriffiths
          As this person is a regular customer I suppose your brother has some idea of who this person purports to be. Has he tried to contact them via any other method, via a contact form on one of their other websites or via a contact number.

          I have seen flaming done before and all too often both sides have had to kiss and make up publicly once they realise it was all a big misunderstanding, not pretty and massively damaging to a reputation.

          Your brother is providing a service so for him start destroying his own reputation would not be a good idea.
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  • Profile picture of the author Raydal
    Old and loyal customers deserve a little more consideration than
    you are thinking about here. You need some patience and
    I'm sure things will work out as was mentioned before.

    Sometimes "revenge" tactics reflect more upon you than the
    target of the revenge.

    Are you sure want to so easily throw away a customer that
    has spent $20K with you already?

    -Ray Edwards
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  • Profile picture of the author rosetrees
    Originally Posted by 6devil View Post

    As a general advice: focus on what you want and write the thing off. If you create websites that want to warn - think about that: how does it look in potential new customers eyes?
    Absolutely. I was just going to post and say. No, whatever your brother in law does, definitely DO NOT start accusing someone of being a scammer.

    It's unprofessional, childish and possibly wrong. If it IS correct, then you are stooping to the same level as the scammer. If your B-I-L does decide to take legal action, putting up a page calling a previously good client all the names under the sun will definitely NOT help his case.

    Be patient. Send him a pleasant email and ask if there are problems. My guess is that s/he is ignoring you because he has already been sent unprofessional, whining or rude messages.
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  • Profile picture of the author onegoodman
    I would say, he can do better. If his customer own a business, and he was hired for that business. He can fill report against him in BBB and Consumer Report.

    These will affect his business , and the customer may go back trying to solve the problem, because if he didn't take BBB case seriously or Consumer Report his business will be affected badly.
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  • Profile picture of the author Lloyd Buchinski
    Don't forget that the person who created the work owns the copyright on it until there is some agreement to pass it on.

    This is one of the little details that normally aren't even taken care of, so you might be able to make use of it here. You could send an email letting the person know about this. It gives you something to back the dmca notice up with.
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  • Profile picture of the author thekaver
    the website idea is pointly in my opinion.

    The net is so huge that if someone is a scammer, they will always find people to scam.
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  • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
    Banned
    That might waste a bit of his time and make him feel better, but what he should do is take a lesson from it and NEVER deliver work until it is paid for. When I did freelance graphic design, everything was watermarked until payment was made.
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    • Profile picture of the author hardraysnight
      8% discount on 20,000

      looks like good business policy
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    • Profile picture of the author NicoleBeckett
      Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

      That might waste a bit of his time and make him feel better, but what he should do is take a lesson from it and NEVER deliver work until it is paid for. When I did freelance graphic design, everything was watermarked until payment was made.
      ^^ THIS is the real lesson to learn here (not just for the OP's brother-in-law, but for anyone who operates their business the same way).

      Unfortunately, there are lots of people out there who want something for nothing and have no problem skipping out on a bill that they owe. When you're dealing with the internet (where it's much easier to be a tough guy, because there's a computer screen between you and everyone else), it's much worse than the brick and mortar world - although I've got friends in the brick and mortar world that run into issues like this on a regular basis, too.

      While you can't eliminate every chance of getting ripped off, there are things you can do to protect yourself - like requesting payments upfront, have a Terms of Service that clearly state that you own the rights to everything until bills are paid, etc. Spend a couple hours of your time and talk to a lawyer who can give you some ideas about how to protect yourself.

      As for the original question, don't let your brother-in-law stoop that low. It's a waste of his time to create a website trashing the guy (when he could use that time to do things that are going to make him some money, instead). Plus, it makes your brother-in-law look bad to his own potential customers to pull something like that.

      As frustrating as it is, the money is only 2 weeks late. If it were me, I'd wait a little longer (after all, the guy is a good client who's paid up until now) and send polite weekly reminders that he has an outstanding bill. If another month or 2 goes by, I'd (politely, but firmly) let the guy know that he's not the copyright holder to the designs, and that I'm going to file a DMCA (or whatever the correct procedure would be, since I'm not a lawyer).
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  • Profile picture of the author Noner
    Honestly I've never seen revenge to pay off. It's just waste of time & resources. Tell your brother-in-law to concentrate on making more money. Think about it. Do you really think it's a good idea to use 20 hours for making websites that warn about the guy? That time used in a project could cover the scamming. Of course if it's a 5min setup then why not if he enjoys it.

    In the worst case scenario the buyer could get pissed off and put up some websites that dishonor your brother-in-law.
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    • Profile picture of the author rosetrees
      Originally Posted by Noner View Post


      In the worst case scenario the buyer could get pissed off and put up some websites that dishonor your brother-in-law.
      Which is exactly what could happen and could destroy your b-i-l's business. Anyone searching for info on him will find out how he pi**** off a customer because (insert whatever reason the customer wants to use)

      I have to say that the very fact that a) your b-i-l is considering this action and b) you actually had to ask if you should condone it makes me wonder about the pair of you. I certainly wouldn't hire you to work for me.
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  • Profile picture of the author TheJustWarrior
    He is a long term customer? bought over 20k worth of service in last 9 months? Now not answering at all?

    Did you think he might have died? or had emergency beyond your transaction?

    does happen.
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  • Profile picture of the author GeorgR.
    I will never do business with any customer in that gambling/poker niche...i was scammed too years ago and the customer/scammer had a site in the same niche.

    I hope that you wont get ANOTHER surprise and find the $20k you already made being fraudulent by paypal or similar...then you would also lose the $20k you already made...
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  • Profile picture of the author Adie
    I totally agree with the idea of upfront payment but sometimes, its sad to say that other customers don't understand this.

    I always tell my customers that if I can not deliver after receiving his money, he has an option to file a dispute or leave me a very bad feedback. Either way, the risk on his side is low..... But on the contrary, if I deliver the product and he don't want to pay after receiving it, I can't do nothing at all, especially if he is nobody.... The risk no my side is 100%. If the customer don't agree with this terms, I simply tell him to find another provider.

    Customers can always ask their money back in many ways, but sellers/providers can't do nothing if the customer don't want to pay unless the product in an encrypted software or something that requires license... But if its just an ebook, articles, designs, etc - goodbye seller.
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  • Profile picture of the author tpw
    Originally Posted by Adie View Post

    He is planning to create a webpage with that person's name and SEO it, alerting everyone to avoid him.

    Will this be a good idea?

    Bad idea. Two wrongs don't make a right.

    I had a guy drop off the planet once. I was irritated, but got over it quickly enough.

    I heard back from the fellow about 8 months later, when he was finally released from the hospital. He damn near died, and it took the docs a hell of a long time to figure out he was allergic to wheat products.

    My uncle had also spent 8 months in the hospital in the late 70's. It took his docs 8 months to figure out that he was allergic to the medicine they were treating him with - penicillin.
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    • Profile picture of the author sal64
      Originally Posted by tpw View Post

      Bad idea. Two wrongs don't make a right.

      My uncle had also spent 8 months in the hospital in the late 70's. It took his docs 8 months to figure out that he was allergic to the medicine they were treating him with - penicillin.
      Why did I just have mental flashes of Groucho Marx running around in a white coat, a cigar and stethoscope?

      Patient: Doctor, Doctor... I can't feel my legs.

      Doctor: Oh that's because we amputated your arms by mistake.
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    • Profile picture of the author Joseph Robinson
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      Originally Posted by Nail Yener View Post

      Are you sure the person is ignoring your brother-in-law's contact attempts? I don't see any reason for that since you said that this person already paid over $20k in the last months. Maybe something unexpected happened on his side?
      The same thoughts that I had. Something is up that makes the client unable or unwilling to contact. A 20k client doesn't just drop off the face of the earth for nothing. That's a lot of money to sink in and then just steal one $1600 design.

      Originally Posted by canyon View Post

      The OP said the websites could be SEO-ed. That means the owner will see the websites sooner or later. If he is a normal human being and gets scared that his business can be ruined, he will contact the OP brother in law and give him he money in exchange to take the websites down.

      It might or it might not work, but sitting aside and hoping for a miracle won't do any good. The guy worked a lot to make those $1,600 worth of designs so I don't think peace is something he thinks about right now.
      Somehow, I don't see that kind of effort being worth it. First, he lost $1600. Then he is going to lose more time and money creating and SEO-ing these websites. There isn't really a guarantee that the client will ever see it, unless he periodically Google searches for himself. Best to just hope the guy pays eventually; and if not cut his losses and move on.

      Originally Posted by Adie View Post

      Well, the content might be harder to track because that was just a deisgn that does not include the domain... The design used a lot of flash and javas thingee for casino games... My brother is planning to set-up a page with "John Doe's names scammer" on it with details... That is his plan... I think it's harder to think about DMCA if he can't track the content... That customer was just a contractor and I think his customer didn't pay him as well, that's why he didn't pay my brother.... chain reaction...
      So wait. If I have this right he was essentially a middleman between you and the person who actually needed the graphic?

      Originally Posted by tpw View Post

      Bad idea. Two wrongs don't make a right.

      I had a guy drop off the planet once. I was irritated, but got over it quickly enough.

      I heard back from the fellow about 8 months later, when he was finally released from the hospital. He damn near died, and it took the docs a hell of a long time to figure out he was allergic to wheat products.

      My uncle had also spent 8 months in the hospital in the late 70's. It took his docs 8 months to figure out that he was allergic to the medicine they were treating him with - penicillin.
      Stories like that make me wonder what they go to 8 years of school for...
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  • Profile picture of the author Will Edwards
    Originally Posted by Adie View Post

    He is planning to create a webpage with that person's name and SEO it, alerting everyone to avoid him.

    Will this be a good idea?

    adie
    This is a bad idea for a number of reasons. You apparently don't know why that guy is not responding and there may well be a legitimate reason, especially in the light of his past dealings with you.

    Your proposal is no way to treat a long term customer who has given you so much business. In fact, assuming there is a legitimate reason for the current situation, even if he subsequently pays you, you may still lose his future business just by starting this thread.

    Worse still, you may have already lost other business you could have had from other Warriors who would not wish to deal with you simply as a consequence of your suggestion.

    I hope it all works out for you; I genuinely do. But my advice would be to get to the root of the problem and work it out with the guy so that you properly understand the situation. If you do that, you should not have to resort to bully tactics.

    Will
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  • Profile picture of the author Ruehl
    Slander is never good! In fact he could be sued for it... especially if you say nothing can be done about the situation in the first place. I would say try and settle it professionally... and whatever will be, will be. If worse comes to worse... then well I really don't have to say it.
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  • Profile picture of the author anahita56
    Would you go that far for just $1600? consider it a bad debt and move on! You never know, the guy might return from the brink and eventually pay his bill. Now wouldn't that be a pleasant surprise? Give him some time and a little credit for all the previous business he's had with you.
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  • Profile picture of the author Adie
    The customer responded yesterday when my brother in law told him about his plan of creating a site. That person said his customer (the real owner of the design) did not pay him so he don't have the money to pay my brother... he is a middleman and did it wrong.... My brother deserves to get paid though....
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    • Profile picture of the author Noner
      Originally Posted by Adie View Post

      The customer responded yesterday when my brother in law told him about his plan of creating a site. That person said his customer (the real owner of the design) did not pay him so he don't have the money to pay my brother... he is a middleman and did it wrong.... My brother deserves to get paid though....
      Setup an installment plan. Almost everybody has 50$/month. If the buyer refuses then I'm not really sure how it works in the USA but in my country you can hire a debt collection agency to collect the debts. If the person refuses to pay the debt collection agency sues them. Those agencies are usually more cheap than lawyers and take a percentage but come through very often.
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  • Profile picture of the author supershoesclub
    I think it is nota scam maybe.coz the design is only 1600$ which is a small amount to compare to the 8 months deals worth 20K $.I think you should wait some time to check if the customer has some personal problem. and had the item you sent signed by the customer already.if it is not himself,but his family.you should send a letter with the detailed info about the deal.thus, maybe you will get a call from that side.
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  • Profile picture of the author SEOexpertSEO
    That client might be on vacation, or perhaps died, or otherwise had a medical emergency.

    I would strongly suggest sending a postal mail to the client every thirty days and proposing some sort of "payment plan".

    It's much better to take the high road.
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    • Profile picture of the author iAmNameLess
      Originally Posted by Adie View Post

      I admit that with the services we are providing online everyday, there are certain times that we get scammed by even one of our longterm customers when things goes upside down.

      My brother-in-law who is a freelance graphic artist got scammed by one of this long-term customers ignoring his emails and calls for more than 2 weeks now after he delivered a design worth $1600. We consider that person a "long-term customer" because he has been ordering custom graphis designs for more than 8 months already and transacted more than $20k ever since they started working.

      Now my brother feels helpless because he is leaving in Australia while that customer is an American leaving in US, so the possibility of bringing that case with lawyers is not viable considering the location and the not-too-big amount involved.

      He is planning to create a webpage with that person's name and SEO it, alerting everyone to avoid him.

      Will this be a good idea?

      adie
      I

      Originally Posted by canyon View Post

      If you want to get revenge, you could set up lots of websites with similar domain that the costumer has, and with the design that your brother made for the costumer.
      Here's the trick: this might sound lame, but include whenever possible the whole story so people will know that the owner of the online casino is not serious.

      It's part revenge, part warning to potential costumers. (after all, if the guy didn't pay the designer of the website, why would he pay the players?)

      Please do not interpret this as a lame joke, it might be useful even if it looks strange.
      Originally Posted by Adie View Post

      Well, the content might be harder to track because that was just a deisgn that does not include the domain... The design used a lot of flash and javas thingee for casino games... My brother is planning to set-up a page with "John Doe's names scammer" on it with details... That is his plan... I think it's harder to think about DMCA if he can't track the content... That customer was just a contractor and I think his customer didn't pay him as well, that's why he didn't pay my brother.... chain reaction...

      You guys need to stop thinking like this because it isn't going to work out to your advantage. Over $1,600 you putting a website up means that you can be sued for much much much more than that even if he is guilty for scamming you.

      If he can prove this was a business to business agreement, there is a difference between putting up consumer reviews, and business entities acting as consumers. Your brother is NOT a consumer.

      Are you sure there isn't more to the story? Maybe the guy didn't like what your brother had done and maybe there was some sort of issue going on?

      Like others mentioned, I don't see him scamming your brother for 1,600 when he already paid 20K. Doesn't make sense.
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