Claims in WSOs - What Gives?

by JB Jiles Banned
76 replies
I took a short look in the WSO section of this forum, which I have not visited before and was astounded by the headlines of these products. I found one that offered to get my website to page one of Google for a very reasonable fixed fee. I find that all seriously hard to believe, especially if my site is in a monstrously competitive niche with ultra competitive keywords. Didn't read the fine print of the offer, but I'm sure it must be extensive. But I guess that is just sales.

So, if for $500 or so, I could find a service that promises to get sites to page one of Google every single time for any chosen keyword, why wouldn't everyone sign up with such a guarantee? The thing is, such a thing is not possible, and any reasonable person is going to know this, so why are such headlines allowed? That's my question.
#claims #wsos
  • Profile picture of the author unstoppableflow
    Originally Posted by JB Jiles View Post

    I took a short look in the WSO section of this forum, which I have not visited before and was astounded by the headlines of these products. I found one that offered to get my website to page one of Google for a very reasonable fixed fee. I find that all seriously hard to believe, especially if my site is in a monstrously competitive niche with ultra competitive keywords. Didn't read the fine print of the offer, but I'm sure it must be extensive. But I guess that is just sales.

    So, if for $500 or so, I could find a service that promises to get sites to page one of Google every single time for any chosen keyword, why wouldn't everyone sign up with such a guarantee? The thing is, such a thing is not possible, and any reasonable person is going to know this, so why are such headlines allowed? That's my question.
    i dont know how they are allowed...i think there should be some proof or some screening process...then there is me who won't launch my WSO because I am so against hype marketing...and without hype no one buys
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  • Profile picture of the author KimboJim
    I have never liked unreasonable claims. Unfortunately, unreasonable claims seem to sell better, especially for people who don't know the market.

    I am planning to come out with some WSOs soon (not link building or SEO, just some ebooks) where I will not be using exaggerated headlines. So let's see if that can beat the "Get $10,000 in 5 seconds? Just one click? How is it possible?!?!?" WSOs.
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    • Profile picture of the author RobKonrad
      Originally Posted by KimboJim View Post

      I have never liked unreasonable claims. Unfortunately, unreasonable claims seem to sell better, especially for people who don't know the market.

      I am planning to come out with some WSOs soon (not link building or SEO, just some ebooks) where I will not be using exaggerated headlines. So let's see if that can beat the "Get $10,000 in 5 seconds? Just one click? How is it possible?!?!?" WSOs.
      Unfortunately, I doubt it. People simply go for what you've mentioned... it's a bitter truth.

      Good luck with your WSOs though, I'll follow your sales copy

      Cheers,
      Rob
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  • Profile picture of the author Looking4Mentor
    Originally Posted by JB Jiles View Post

    I took a short look in the WSO section of this forum, which I have not visited before and was astounded by the headlines of these products. I found one that offered to get my website to page one of Google for a very reasonable fixed fee. I find that all seriously hard to believe, especially if my site is in a monstrously competitive niche with ultra competitive keywords. Didn't read the fine print of the offer, but I'm sure it must be extensive. But I guess that is just sales.

    So, if for $500 or so, I could find a service that promises to get sites to page one of Google every single time for any chosen keyword, why wouldn't everyone sign up with such a guarantee? The thing is, such a thing is not possible, and any reasonable person is going to know this, so why are such headlines allowed? That's my question.

    Hi JB Jiles.

    Wow, amazing claims. Forget the $500 product - I want to purchase the magic ball he uses to figure out the future of each and everyone's website rankings.

    ...or he must have one of those nifty softwares- one click and your website is on the first page of google.

    Peace.
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  • Profile picture of the author Rod Cortez
    Originally Posted by JB Jiles View Post

    I took a short look in the WSO section of this forum, which I have not visited before and was astounded by the headlines of these products. I found one that offered to get my website to page one of Google for a very reasonable fixed fee. I find that all seriously hard to believe, especially if my site is in a monstrously competitive niche with ultra competitive keywords. Didn't read the fine print of the offer, but I'm sure it must be extensive. But I guess that is just sales.

    So, if for $500 or so, I could find a service that promises to get sites to page one of Google every single time for any chosen keyword, why wouldn't everyone sign up with such a guarantee? The thing is, such a thing is not possible, and any reasonable person is going to know this, so why are such headlines allowed? That's my question.
    You're half right. SOME of these WSOs actually deliver. I used one particular Warrior's service and he did get me to page one on Google for more than one of my keywords (not going to plug it here). So it is possible. Granted, a lot of the claims in the WSO section are just outrageous, but don't let that stop you from finding the real gems that are in there.

    I sure don't and have found some real kick ass WSOs. Though I do my research before I buy.

    You're in a marketing forum where marketers are selling to other marketers. So you're going to see hype being used day in and day out.

    Keep in mind that as long as the marketplace continues to buy, those claims are going to continue. So the buyers are just as much to blame as the sellers. It takes 2 to tango in a market place.

    Secondly, hyperbole works. Always has and always will. Studies have shown time and time again that copy written to trigger certain parts of the brain works much better in making sales. So headline B at the bottom would convert much better than headline A:

    Headline A: Grow Your Web Business By 400%, Step-By-Step

    Headline B: 6 New Joint Ventures, 3,297 new opt-ins, $300 - $500 per day With Only 2 Hours Of Work! Only 24 Copies Left!

    Headline A does a very weak job of setting any kind of emotional trigger, nor does it do a good job of getting someone's attention. In forum selling market places like the WSO forum, you have less than 2 seconds to grab someone's attention. So the first few words are CRITICAL to grabbing a prospects attention.

    So to make Headline B even better, it should probably start off with "$300 - $500 per day"..........

    RoD
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    • Profile picture of the author dudelive
      What bothers me is when you know you have a good product and the only way anyone will even look at it you need (pay 37 and make 1000 in 5 minutes! today only)

      I will not do that but because of that I suffer.

      If I tell what I believe to be fact I'm punished also because my claim sounds to good to be real.

      So whats a person to do?
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      • Profile picture of the author Rod Cortez
        Originally Posted by dudelive View Post

        What bothers me is when you know you have a good product and the only way anyone will even look at it you need (pay 37 and make 1000 in 5 minutes! today only)

        I will not do that but because of that I suffer.

        If I tell what I believe to be fact I'm punished also because my claim sounds to good to be real.

        So whats a person to do?
        My semi-rhetorical questions to you as a copywriter would be:

        Regarding your "good" product. What problem does it specifically solve?

        How much market research was put into the product before releasing it? It it something that has a track of record of having demand?

        How can you grab your prospect's attention by highlighting what your product can do for them in an emotional way?

        Remember, people are not looking for products, they are looking for transformation. At the very least, they are looking for a specific solution to a problem or issue they are having and you have to present the product or service in a way that will convince them of that on an emotional level.

        RoD
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      • Profile picture of the author salegurus
        I have never liked unreasonable claims. Unfortunately, unreasonable claims seem to sell better, especially for people who don't know the market.
        Unfortunately most people still don't get it, IM'ing like any offline business requires that you put in the hours, invest your time and money.
        People are taken in by exaggerated claims of instant wealth with very little work eg: $5000 weekly working only 2 hours per day.
        People don't want to see: Earn a reasonable income within 3-6 months with 6 hours of work per day.

        Why would someone who is "allegedly" making a 6 figure income be selling their "method" for a measly $5.
        And no their motives are not altruistic that's a BS excuse, they are trying to make a buck like everyone else. You don't see Donald Trump peddling a "How to make Millions in Real Estate overnight" report for pennies online.

        Don't believe everything you read...
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        • Profile picture of the author Rachel Zaouche
          Originally Posted by salegurus View Post

          Unfortunately most people still don't get it, IM'ing like any offline business requires that you put in the hours, invest your time and money.
          People are taken in by exaggerated claims of instant wealth with very little work eg: $5000 weekly working only 2 hours per day.
          People don't want to see: Earn a reasonable income within 3-6 months with 6 hours of work per day.

          Why would someone who is "allegedly" making a 6 figure income be selling their "method" for a measly $5.
          And no their motives are not altruistic that's a BS excuse, they are trying to make a buck like everyone else. You don't see Donald Trump peddling a "How to make Millions in Real Estate overnight" report for pennies online.

          Don't believe everything you read...
          Actually Donald Trump has a few books on kindle for less than $10.

          But I agree with you on the other points. People still seem to believe that their computer is a cash machine - it can be but only if you put the work in first.

          WSO's are what they are - a way to market information or services to warriors and other people outside of the Warrior forum. You have to be careful but you can also learn a lot from the wso section. You can learn about headlines, marketing and sometimes what not to do or how not to act.

          What I do, is have a look at the WSO section and look for reviews by people I trust. People I know that wouldn't look at something or comment on it without it being a good deal. For example, if Andy says something was good I would buy it. There are some other warriors that just release stuff and I buy it without reading the sales page. Example - Jack Duncan.

          There are some wsos that are fantastic products, there are others that are pure drivel.

          But there are also warriors who will buy fantastic products, let them rust on their computer and then complain that they are not making any money:rolleyes:

          I think the mods do a fantastic job. If you buy a product and it is crxp then tell the rest of the WF by posting on the WSO thread. We are all adults and business people (supposed to be anyway!) so we should be able to take care of ourselves. The mods aren't babysitters.
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  • Profile picture of the author Joseph Robinson
    Banned
    The moderators have enough to deal with on the site already. If they had to quality control WSO's, well that is a Pandora's box that bring about the end of days. The system that seems to be in place instead, one that you will learn is a driving theme on this forum, is to use your common sense. Let the idiots make their outrageous claims. All you have to do is decide for yourself whether or not the WSO can deliver. At the end of the day, the cream will rise to the top as long as you are willing to look for it.
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  • Profile picture of the author Scott Skinner
    They are allowed because although the writer may not be able to prove the claim, how can it be proven to be false? That's the catch 22 of marketing. It's everywhere. TV, radio, newspapers, magazines, politics, etc.

    Just stay vigilant. Run it thru your Bulls*** detector when you see it, if the alarm goes off, then move on.
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  • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
    It's a good question and you're absolutely right - they cannot support such guarantees.

    The simple situation is that they make them because it's what people want to hear.

    If you don't own Google then you're making yourself a liar if you promise you can make them do something. It's a promise you don't have the power or control to keep.

    I've tested most of those offers and if I'm being generous then I'd say that they are offering what they believe will help people and exaggerating to increase conversions. I've been waiting for over a year for one of those WSOs to actually achieve the top ranking it promised.

    Then there's the other side of it - if 5 warriors all want to rank for the same term - 4 of them are impossible to deliver that promise to.

    Fortunately these offers don't give visibility of whether they're ranking anyone else for the same term as you and if they fail to deliver they just say "we're still trying" so you end up thinking "well, I KNEW they couldn't actually deliver anyway but it was worth seeing what benefit the service had".

    Anyone who knows anything about search engines and ranking understands all this, so I imagine most of their customers are either operating in such non-competitive niches that they can often deliver decent results, or they see some level of increase and just accept that they never actually believed it could be done anyway.

    The 2 old adages of 1) caveat emptor and 2) if it seems too good to be true it often is come to mind.

    Desperate people want to hear that you can just pay to have your desired results handed to you on a plate - so there will always be people ready to offer them.

    From the forums perspective - there are so many WSOs I don't imagine you could even 1/2 sanity check them without a large staff of people and at some point you have to let buyers take some level of responsibility for what they buy.

    Also, remember that many of the WSOs are sold to people outside the forum via affiliates and providers websites, so those wild and sometimes illegal claims are not just aimed at warriors but unsuspecting outsiders who don't understand that marketing has such elements.
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    nothing to see here.

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    • Profile picture of the author DebbieD
      I once took advantage of such an offer (We guarantee Google's first page for $xx) and it did work. Granted, it was not a very competitive keyword, but they did land me a page one ranking.

      This is how they do it (I'm not 100% sure, but I think so. The one I used, anyway):

      They have a network (thousands) of blogs and they have staff that continually pumps out articles (have no idea if they're original or spun) to these blogs with the buyer's keyword. It's low quality links, but tons and tons of low quality links also make a difference.

      The keyword slowly moves up the ranks. And when the site is on the first page, they take a screenshot and let you know via e-mail.
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    • Profile picture of the author JB Jiles
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Andyhenry View Post

      It's a good question and you're absolutely right - they cannot support such guarantees.

      The simple situation is that they make them because it's what people want to hear.

      If you don't own Google then you're making yourself a liar if you promise you can make them do something. It's a promise you don't have the power or control to keep.

      I've tested most of those offers and if I'm being generous then I'd say that they are offering what they believe will help people and exaggerating to increase conversions. I've been waiting for over a year for one of those WSOs to actually achieve the top ranking it promised.

      Then there's the other side of it - if 5 warriors all want to rank for the same term - 4 of them are impossible to deliver that promise to.

      Fortunately these offers don't give visibility of whether they're ranking anyone else for the same term as you and if they fail to deliver they just say "we're still trying" so you end up thinking "well, I KNEW they couldn't actually deliver anyway but it was worth seeing what benefit the service had".

      Anyone who knows anything about search engines and ranking understands all this, so I imagine most of their customers are either operating in such non-competitive niches that they can often deliver decent results, or they see some level of increase and just accept that they never actually believed it could be done anyway.

      The 2 old adages of 1) caveat emptor and 2) if it seems too good to be true it often is come to mind.

      Desperate people want to hear that you can just pay to have your desired results handed to you on a plate - so there will always be people ready to offer them.

      From the forums perspective - there are so many WSOs I don't imagine you could even 1/2 sanity check them without a large staff of people and at some point you have to let buyers take some level of responsibility for what they buy.

      Also, remember that many of the WSOs are sold to people outside the forum via affiliates and providers websites, so those wild and sometimes illegal claims are not just aimed at warriors but unsuspecting outsiders who don't understand that marketing has such elements.
      My post was an initial reaction to a form of shell shock from all the headlines or whatever the titles of these offers are termed here.

      I do know I have seen enough of that section to know I have seen enough.
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  • Profile picture of the author officer_iron
    It really is a pain for WSO makers who try to write legitimate sales copy and headlines. People aren't looking for reality. They aren't looking for the product that will help them slowly build up a REAL business (and actually works), they want something that's going to make them a millionaire overnight (even though it's not really going to happen).

    For a copywriter with a conscience, it becomes a game of making an attention-grabbing headline, but keeping the claims true. It's difficult.
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    • Profile picture of the author JB Jiles
      Banned
      Originally Posted by officer_iron View Post

      It really is a pain for WSO makers who try to write legitimate sales copy and headlines. People aren't looking for reality. They aren't looking for the product that will help them slowly build up a REAL business (and actually works), they want something that's going to make them a millionaire overnight (even though it's not really going to happen).

      For a copywriter with a conscience, it becomes a game of making an attention-grabbing headline, but keeping the claims true. It's difficult.
      I know better than to ask why such products are allowed to be sold. I really shouldn't have publicly expressed what was on my mind, but it's too late now.
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  • Profile picture of the author sal64
    We can put a man on the moon... but we can't fix the WSO forum.
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    • Profile picture of the author TiffLee
      Originally Posted by sal64 View Post

      We can put a man on the moon... but we can't fix the WSO forum.
      My orange juice just came out my nose in a fit of laughter.

      ... thanks.
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      • Profile picture of the author kemper
        Originally Posted by TiffLee View Post

        My orange juice just came out my nose in a fit of laughter.

        ... thanks.
        TiffLee Now your claim I believe. Hope you recover from the orange juice.
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    • Profile picture of the author E. Brian Rose
      Originally Posted by sal64 View Post

      We can put a man on the moon...
      We could put a man on the moon. We can no longer do so. The number of meetings, proposals, ego checks, and other bureaucratic BS that happens at NASA these days would take an actual moon launch 50+ years. Believe me, I used to work there.
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      • Profile picture of the author sal64
        Originally Posted by E. Brian Rose View Post

        We could put a man on the moon. We can no longer do so. The number of meetings, proposals, ego checks, and other bureaucratic BS that happens at NASA these days would take an actual moon launch 50+ years. Believe me, I used to work there.
        Maybe they can bring Jeff Walker to create a Moon Launch Formula 3.0??
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    • Originally Posted by sal64 View Post

      We can put a man on the moon... but we can't fix the WSO forum.
      You are sure right on that! lol
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  • Profile picture of the author Tim_Carter
    You are being marketed to in the WSO section.

    Just use your head. To purchase or not to purchase based on claims is entirely on you.
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    • Profile picture of the author JB Jiles
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Tim_Carter View Post

      You are being marketed to in the WSO section.

      Just use your head. To purchase or not to purchase based on claims is entirely on you.
      Thank you. Again, I do wish I had not posted what I did. Upon going back there, I actually did find offers that seemed honest and legitimate. It was a knee jerk response, which I'll work on controlling. So there again is my mea culpa and expression of regret for posting what I did.
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    • Profile picture of the author David Keith
      Originally Posted by Tim_Carter View Post

      You are being marketed to in the WSO section.

      Just use your head. To purchase or not to purchase based on claims is entirely on you.
      being "marketed to" should not actually mean "being lied to"

      this is not just a matter of morals and ethics. it is in fact a matter of the law being ignored and in fact broken.

      in truth, many of the offers in the wso section are not even close to being compliant with the ftc guidelines.

      it will catch up to the WF at some point. these non ftc compliant offers are on the WF servers which makes WF responsible via the law. not to mention the fact the the WF is profiting from the posting of non ftc compliant offers.
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      • Profile picture of the author JB Jiles
        Banned
        Originally Posted by David Keith View Post

        being "marketed to" should not actually mean "being lied to"

        this is not just a matter of morals and ethics. it is in fact a matter of the law being ignored and in fact broken.

        in truth, many of the offers in the wso section are not even close to being compliant with the ftc guidelines.

        it will catch up to the WF at some point. these non ftc compliant offers are on the WF servers which makes WF responsible via the law. not to mention the fact the the WF is profiting from the posting of non ftc compliant offers.
        Whoa, there's something said with conviction! I hadn't thought of it from the perspective which you just pointed out, and I'm thrilled that you brought it up, if that is indeed the case.

        I have to say that I do find the WSO offer claiming to get sites to the first page of Google particularly galling. Especially so when I notice how, upon researching the owner, he boasts of how much he is billing monthly as a result of people believing his initial claims.
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        • Profile picture of the author ronr
          There are some great WSO's that really work. Unfortunately you also find more hype than you will find just about anywere else.

          Like the headlines how you can get 50 new clients in 24 hours. If someone actually tries it and doesn't get any clients, you find out that it's based on how someone sent out 2 emails and by chance got one client. So of course they have a 50% success rate. So if they reason if they sent out 100 emails then of course in 24 hours you'll have 50 new clients all throwing money at you begging you to take it :rolleyes:
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  • Profile picture of the author NPOPromote
    i think it's an escalating "infomercial syndrome" - where it keeps spiraling and spiraling until the only people who get attention are those who are just absolutely screaming.
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    • Profile picture of the author Joseph Robinson
      Banned
      Originally Posted by sal64 View Post

      We can put a man on the moon... but we can't fix the WSO forum.
      Correction, we put a man on the moon. Unfortunately that was a long, long, time ago. We don't even have a shuttle program anymore lol. WSO's are just going to have to be self policed!

      Originally Posted by NPOPromote View Post

      i think it's an escalating "infomercial syndrome" - where it keeps spiraling and spiraling until the only people who get attention are those who are just absolutely screaming.
      BUT WAIT!!! THERE'S MORE!!! If you believe in the capitalist concept of the market dictating what happens, then the way forward is clear. If the flashy and BS claims are ignored, and I mean COMPLETELY ignored they will go away. Of course if it was that simple, we wouldn't be having this discussion right now.
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      • Profile picture of the author JB Jiles
        Banned
        Originally Posted by Joe128139 View Post

        If the flashy and BS claims are ignored, and I mean COMPLETELY ignored they will go away. Of course if it was that simple, we wouldn't be having this discussion right now.
        It would seem to be about a little more than that if many of these offers are, as David Keith pointed out above, not even compliant with FTC guidelines.
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  • Profile picture of the author Joseph Robinson
    Banned
    Didn't even read his post. Well bring on the FTC then! Won't make the forum better methinks...we should have just self policed
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    • Profile picture of the author JB Jiles
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Joe128139 View Post

      Didn't even read his post. Well bring on the FTC then! Won't make the forum better methinks...we should have just self policed
      Methinks?1? Where are you from?? Where do people talk like that? Not Orlando!

      To address your point, though, why would this place not be better by cleaning out offers with unsupportable claims that also happen to be non-FTC compliant? Again, I don't know if this actually true, but it sure wouldn't surprise me.

      Aren't for you for the notion of protecting people who are susceptible to being scammed, used, abused, and taken for a ride?
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      • Profile picture of the author Joseph Robinson
        Banned
        Originally Posted by JB Jiles View Post

        Methinks?1? Where are you from?? Where do people talk like that? Not Orlando!

        To address your point, though, why would this place not be better by cleaning out offers with unsupportable claims that also happen to be non-FTC compliant? Again, I don't know if this actually true, but it sure wouldn't surprise me.

        Aren't for you for the notion of protecting people who are susceptible to being scammed, used, abused, and taken for a ride?
        Let's see, first off the word just came to me lol. Haven't heard it once in Orlando.

        I'm sure the FTC would improve on the problem we are discussing; but I much prefer the forum the way it is: under the complete control and discretion of Allen Says and all those moderator people. Is it a perfect thing? Not even close; but there is an infinite amount of ways our tax dollars could be better spent.

        As for protecting those susceptible to scams? Can't be done. Look, all of us have been scammed at least once or twice before, right? What did we do? Lick our wounds, learn, and move on. That's not who those WSO's target. Most normal members are too smart for that crap. No, they target the people who can be scammed by anything and everything. They target those who have a house full of "As Seen on TV" items. You can't protect those people, no matter how much you regulate things. Those susceptible to being scammed will be scammed one way or the other.

        A harsh viewpoint, I know; but as I said before we can't solve all of the world's problems and there are plenty that take precedence over this.
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        • Profile picture of the author David Keith
          Originally Posted by Joe128139 View Post

          Let's see, first off the word just came to me lol. Haven't heard it once in Orlando.

          I'm sure the FTC would improve on the problem we are discussing; but I much prefer the forum the way it is: under the complete control and discretion of Allen Says and all those moderator people. Is it a perfect thing? Not even close; but there is an infinite amount of ways our tax dollars could be better spent.

          As for protecting those susceptible to scams? Can't be done. Look, all of us have been scammed at least once or twice before, right? What did we do? Lick our wounds, learn, and move on. That's not who those WSO's target. Most normal members are too smart for that crap. No, they target the people who can be scammed by anything and everything. They target those who have a house full of "As Seen on TV" items. You can't protect those people, no matter how much you regulate things. Those susceptible to being scammed will be scammed one way or the other.

          A harsh viewpoint, I know; but as I said before we can't solve all of the world's problems and there are plenty that take precedence over this.
          the thing is that its not up to allen says or anyone else for that matter to decide IF they want to follow the laws of the land. sure they have the option not to do so, but they then must accept the punishment for not doing so.

          now i am certainly not indicating i want the ftc to have more control, but i am saying that if those of us law abiding citizens have to play by the rules, then others should be made to as well.

          you dont have to like the law, but it is the law. a law which everyone must follow.
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        • Profile picture of the author JB Jiles
          Banned
          Originally Posted by Joe128139 View Post

          L
          As for protecting those susceptible to scams? Can't be done. Look, all of us have been scammed at least once or twice before, right? What did we do? Lick our wounds, learn, and move on. That's not who those WSO's target. Most normal members are too smart for that crap. No, they target the people who can be scammed by anything and everything. They target those who have a house full of "As Seen on TV" items. You can't protect those people, no matter how much you regulate things. Those susceptible to being scammed will be scammed one way or the other.

          A harsh viewpoint, I know; but as I said before we can't solve all of the world's problems and there are plenty that take precedence over this.
          Laws keep tightening on unscrupulous vendors for the very reason you just pointed out. There will always be people who can be taken advantage of, as you say. It is for those wise to these tactics to do all they can to protect those who cannot protect themselves. And if laws are in place to prevent the type of shenanigans that are clearly going on in the WSO section of this site, why are they not being adhered to?

          My question is more rhetorical than anything. Nobody needs to point out to me the ways of the world.
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  • Profile picture of the author David Keith
    there are many examples of how many wso's are in fact breaking the law. here is one.

    FTC Publishes Final Guides Governing Endorsements, Testimonials

    "Under the revised Guides, advertisements that feature a consumer and convey his or her experience with a product or service as typical when that is not the case will be required to clearly disclose the results that consumers can generally expect. In contrast to the 1980 version of the Guides – which allowed advertisers to describe unusual results in a testimonial as long as they included a disclaimer such as “results not typical” – the revised Guides no longer contain this safe harbor."

    which means that by law, the sales pages must disclose the results that customers can generally expect.

    there are also countless times when the use of testimonials are in breach of the law

    according to:
    Advertising and Marketing on the Internet: Rules of the Road | BCP Business Center

    "Connections between an endorser and the company that are unclear or unexpected to a customer also must be disclosed,"

    thus any affiliate or anyone who received a review or discounted copy of a product must have a disclaimer attached to their review. a blanket catch all disclaimer on the page is not enough.

    this stuff will all get worked out eventually. and those who are ignoring it now, will end up paying the price later. its actually quit amazing to me how far outside of the law many of these are operating currently. many are not even close to being compliant.
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    • Profile picture of the author JB Jiles
      Banned
      Originally Posted by David Keith View Post

      there are many examples of how many wso's are in fact breaking the law. here is one.

      FTC Publishes Final Guides Governing Endorsements, Testimonials

      "Under the revised Guides, advertisements that feature a consumer and convey his or her experience with a product or service as typical when that is not the case will be required to clearly disclose the results that consumers can generally expect. In contrast to the 1980 version of the Guides – which allowed advertisers to describe unusual results in a testimonial as long as they included a disclaimer such as “results not typical” – the revised Guides no longer contain this safe harbor."

      which means that by law, the sales pages must disclose the results that customers can generally expect.

      there are also countless times when the use of testimonials are in breach of the law

      according to:
      Advertising and Marketing on the Internet: Rules of the Road | BCP Business Center

      "Connections between an endorser and the company that are unclear or unexpected to a customer also must be disclosed,"

      thus any affiliate or anyone who received a review or discounted copy of a product must have a disclaimer attached to their review. a blanket catch all disclaimer on the page is not enough.

      this stuff will all get worked out eventually. and those who are ignoring it now, will end up paying the price later. its actually quit amazing to me how far outside of the law many of these are operating currently. many are not even close to being compliant.
      If that's all true, then my original question resonates with me much more. Why is this allowed to go on? It's only people who are being taken advantage of as a result of these lowdown tactics used to fleece people, many of whom can ill afford to be taken advantage of. Certain laws are put into place to protect those who cannot protect themselves.
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  • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
    Banned
    Originally Posted by JB Jiles View Post

    why are such headlines allowed? That's my question.
    Why are you asking the members, rather than those who decide that? :confused:
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    • Profile picture of the author JB Jiles
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

      Why are you asking the members, rather than those who decide that? :confused:
      Didn't think of it, truthfully. As I mentioned earlier, what I wrote initially was based upon my initial astonishment at the outrageousness of the claims contained within the WSO section of this site.
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  • I LOVE hearing the old spineless verbal wave of indifference when people simply say "buyer beware."

    Whatever happened to integrity?

    When you associate yourself with liars and thieves, even your best intentions will be viewed by many as unscrupulous. I agree that if you buy these wild claims and shell out money for them, then you deserve to be separated from your cash. But at the same time, providing these people with a place to sell their blatant lies without any accountability is a practice that is rightfully questionable.

    This is why you see this theme in thread after thread, and also on other forums and blog sites.

    The Warrior Forum is supposed to be a member-moderated forum; it's a shame that members can't somehow regulate the WSO section. It would bring considerable clout, trust and authority to the forum.
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    • Profile picture of the author JB Jiles
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Russell Barnstein View Post

      I LOVE hearing the old spineless verbal wave of indifference when people simply say "buyer beware."

      Whatever happened to integrity?

      When you associate yourself with liars and thieves, even your best intentions will be viewed by many as unscrupulous. I agree that if you buy these wild claims and shell out money for them, then you deserve to be separated from your cash. But at the same time, providing these people with a place to sell their blatant lies without any accountability is a practice that is rightfully questionable.

      This is why you see this theme in thread after thread, and also on other forums and blog sites.

      The Warrior Forum is supposed to be a member-moderated forum; it's a shame that members can't somehow regulate the WSO section. It would bring considerable clout, trust and authority to the forum.
      Nicely put, Russell, but I have to disagree with you on the notion that there is ever a circumstance where someone actually deserves to be swindled. I just cannot accept that and it goes against the virtue of charity.
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      • Profile picture of the author David Keith
        Originally Posted by JB Jiles View Post

        Nicely put, Russell, but I have to disagree with you on the notion that there is ever a circumstance where someone actually deserves to be swindled. I just cannot accept that and it goes against the virtue of charity.
        i look at that as more of one person getting some money, and another person getting a bit of a experience.

        we have all learned a few lessons the hard way, and thats not a totally bad thing for most people. and lets face it, if you learn a lesson the hard way by being scammed out of $10 for a wso, you got off pretty lite.

        i will be the first to admit that most of the folks here are not outright swindlers. and in truth, there is some value to be gained from most of the wso's sold here. however, they do make outrageous claims that are not true in many cases. not to mention the fact that they dont follow all the laws.
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        • Profile picture of the author JB Jiles
          Banned
          Originally Posted by David Keith View Post

          i look at that as more of one person getting some money, and another person getting a bit of a experience.

          we have all learned a few lessons the hard way, and thats not a totally bad thing for most people. and lets face it, if you learn a lesson the hard way by being scammed out of $10 for a wso, you got off pretty lite.

          i will be the first to admit that most of the folks here are not outright swindlers. and in truth, there is some value to be gained from most of the wso's sold here. however, they do make outrageous claims that are not true in many cases. not to mention the fact that they dont follow all the laws.
          I don't know anyone here, but I did try to back off my initial statement and mentioned that there did appear to be offers in the WSO that weren't so shockingly laughable in their audaciousness and insolence.

          I didn't perk back up again until you mentioned that many of these offers are not following the letter of the law. That got my attention. It's not bad enough that people have to muddle their way through offers that bend the rules of the law, but they also have to make their way through a minefield of offers that do not even adhere to the laws of the country in which this site operates. And nobody has the slightest bit of sympathy for those who get ripped off under these conditions. That's just the way it is, life in the big city, hard knocks, and this sort of thing.

          What's up with that?

          Reminds me of a book I once read called You Got Nothing Coming.
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          • Profile picture of the author David Keith
            Originally Posted by JB Jiles View Post


            What's up with that?

            Reminds me of a book I once read called You Got Nothing Coming.
            unfortunately, that is just what the IM industry has evolved into. i have been doing this 15+ years and it has changed a lot in the last 5-8 or so. it is what keeps so of us out of the IM game. i am just not totally convinced that a person who does not participate in any of the games could actually be successful selling facts and not dreams.

            if you are new to the game, tune up your BS meter and watch what people do more than you listen to what they say.

            and the real secret is.... there is no secret.
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            • Profile picture of the author JB Jiles
              Banned
              Originally Posted by David Keith View Post

              unfortunately, that is just what the IM industry has evolved into. i have been doing this 15+ years and it has changed a lot in the last 5-8 or so. it is what keeps so of us out of the IM game. i am just not totally convinced that a person who does not participate in any of the games could actually be successful selling facts and not dreams.

              if you are new to the game, tune up your BS meter and watch what people do more than you listen to what they say.

              and the real secret is.... there is no secret.
              Thanks David. Kind regards.
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    • Profile picture of the author sal64
      With respect...

      People who buy a wso have every right to leave a review... good bad or indifferent.

      So we do have the power to change it.

      If someone has bought into something ridonkerlous and got ripped off then they should voice their views on the appropriate thread.

      Not raise rants on here.

      These threads do nothing but polarize members based on their beliefs. Nothing else is ever achieved.

      So yeah, if you're stupid enough to buy into such a product, despite the red flags and despite reading what goes on here... then bad luck.

      Some of us have with adnauseum, laid out some basic principles to apply when buying a WSO.

      The problem is that people either don't want to hear the truth, or they are just so intoxicated with greed that they'll jump in over and over again. And frankly, as long as these idiots are popped out by their mom's there will always be some one ready to satiate their every whim.

      Next time, think twice before clicking.

      Originally Posted by Russell Barnstein View Post

      I LOVE hearing the old spineless verbal wave of indifference when people simply say "buyer beware."

      Whatever happened to integrity?

      When you associate yourself with liars and thieves, even your best intentions will be viewed by many as unscrupulous. I agree that if you buy these wild claims and shell out money for them, then you deserve to be separated from your cash. But at the same time, providing these people with a place to sell their blatant lies without any accountability is a practice that is rightfully questionable.

      This is why you see this theme in thread after thread, and also on other forums and blog sites.

      The Warrior Forum is supposed to be a member-moderated forum; it's a shame that members can't somehow regulate the WSO section. It would bring considerable clout, trust and authority to the forum.
      Signature
      Internet Marketing: 20% Internet - 80% Marketing!
      You Won't See The Light Until You Open Your Eyes.
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  • Profile picture of the author Chris1212
    Maybe I've just been fortunate, so far, but... I've bought probably a dozen or more WSO's and only found 2 that were not worth what I paid. But then, I read the reviews and pay attention to WHO is saying what before I purchase (at least most of the time).

    I agree it's very sad that totally outlandish and impossible claims are made just to make sales, and I feel very bad for people who are struggling money-wise and get taken by these pitches.

    But then, life is kinda that way. A school of hard knocks.

    I was taken for a lot more money than any WSO on a single "guru's" sales page outside the WF, so, IMHO, the claims on the WF for the amount of money the WSO's generally cost is MILD compared to the crap you find elsewhere on the net.

    The most recent time I was "taken", I paid $297 for a very well known and highly regarded copywriter's virtual seminar (a video of a 2 day event) where he promised no sales pitches. He loudly preaches "build customers for life" and "never quibble about a refund request... just smile and give the refund... it's best for business, period..." blah... blah... blah. WELL, the entire 2 day seminar was NOTHING BUT sales pitches for other people's stuff. I was appalled. They didn't provide access to the videos for the length of time promised (less than half the time, actually, because of their "technical difficulties") and there were other things that were not as promised. I asked for a refund TWICE and was told no, sorry, you got the seminar for part of the time so basically screw you.

    I'd much rather have been scammed on a $10, $47 or even $97 WSO without a refund than $297 from someone who is "supposedly" well-respected in the copywriting industry. BS.

    I guess what I'm saying is this is IMHO a cheaper place for people to learn how not to be scammed than off the WF.

    Another way to look at it is, IM is not cheap. Even successful marketers spend tons of money. So if people can't afford to lose a little here and there, they don't belong in IM and maybe the WF will help them realize that faster than anyplace else. Just a thought.

    And please don't think I am or have any reason to defend how the WF operates. I don't like the hyperbole either! I'm just saying... maybe the WF has it's own unique process of natural selection.

    At least here, if you feel scammed or that a product isn't what it claims to be, you generally can get your money back fairly easily. (At least, I always have.)

    Take care,
    Chris
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  • Profile picture of the author Rod Cortez
    Personally, I'd like to see a rule against any and all income claims in the WSO forum. Let people work out some of their "copy" muscles a bit more and get those creative juices going once again. lol

    Same with those phony "WSO of the week" or "WSO of the year" titles that really don't mean anything.

    Okay, back to my Bailey's and Coffee.......

    RoD
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    - Jim Rohn
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Sal,
      We can put a man on the moon... but we can't fix the WSO forum.
      And, despite trillions of dollars spent, and lifetimes of caring and expert effort invested, we can't fix hunger, robbery, murder, spouse abuse, and a metric buttload of other problems.

      Why? They're rooted in human nature.

      Before I say anything else on this, let me make it clear that I have nothing to do with the approval of any form of advertising anywhere on the forum. I also don't make policy here. Thus, these are all personal opinions, with no more "official" standing than the opinions of any other member.

      I'm on record stating that I believe all claims of specific results should be forbidden on the forum. I'd be okay with them if they included an "If it doesn't happen, you get your money back" guarantee, but only if there were a way to enforce that. There is not, and there likely won't ever be. The forum doesn't handle any part of the transaction between advertisers and customers.

      Legally, there's the issue Rod mentioned: Some of those claims turn out to be true. The people who handle ad approval have no way of knowing which ones will. It's not appropriate for the forum to start saying, "We believe this one, but not the other." And there simply isn't any way for anyone here to verify any evidence that might be offered, even if there were time enough to do so.

      David mentions the possibility of the FTC looking at some of those ads. I would personally welcome them smacking around anyone who's lying about the results their products would produce. Especially the income claim stuff. They have the ability and expertise to get the real facts and enforce the law properly.

      Russell said: "The Warrior Forum is supposed to be a member-moderated forum; it's a shame that members can't somehow regulate the WSO section. It would bring considerable clout, trust and authority to the forum."

      I've long suggested a simple way for the members to control that: Do not buy any product that makes claims of specific results. It's rather difficult to get that advice in front of everyone who views an offer here, though, and even more so since the growth in affiliate promotions to non-members.

      Short of saying "No claims of specific results at all,", there is no way for the people at the forum to regulate this stuff that is either legally or morally unambiguous. And the lawyers I've had conversations with about it have said they believe that refusing a claim that is legally supportable may be an issue in its own right. I'm not convinced, but I am also not a lawyer.

      Mind you, those were just conversations, not legal advice. I'm not party to these transactions, so I wouldn't have any business getting legal advice on the matter. But the comments made sense.

      It's easy for people to express outrage. It's a whole other matter to come up with a workable solution to the perceived problem.

      I say 'perceived' for a couple of reasons. First, anyone can choose not to buy any offer at any time. Second, based on the very small number of them that get reported as problems, the overwhelming majority of the offers in that section appear to deliver on what they promise.

      Are there people lying in their offers? Sure. But we don't know who they are until we're pointed to them and given evidence. When that happens, we act on it. That means using the little red triangle to tell the mods. Not just screaming at someone in a thread the moderators aren't likely to ever read.

      I've been pointed to threads where people were howling about how awful the moderation was, only to see that not a single person doing the howling had bothered to report the problem they saw.

      What do they think? That we read every post in every thread every day? Not feasible. Do they believe we're psychics, scanning the globe for mental emanations of discontent from unsatisfied buyers?

      When it's a relatively new member, it's understandable they don't know about the report function. But when it's a member of 3 or 5 or 7 years, it's just ridiculous.

      If there's a specific problem, don't rant. Don't rave. Report.

      That's your member moderation solution. When you use it, it works.


      Paul
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      Stop by Paul's Pub - my little hangout on Facebook.

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      • Profile picture of the author Zen Warrior
        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

        Sal,And, despite trillions of dollars spent, and lifetimes of caring and expert effort invested, we can't fix hunger, robbery, murder, spouse abuse, and a metric buttload of other problems.

        Why? They're rooted in human nature.

        Paul
        Maybe so, but we can rise above it too....and despite what all these claims say, money can't buy you love
        Signature



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      • Profile picture of the author Joe J
        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post


        Are there people lying in their offers? Sure. But we don't know who they are until we're pointed to them and given evidence. When that happens, we act on it. That means using the little red triangle to tell the mods. Not just screaming at someone in a thread the moderators aren't likely to ever read.

        I've been pointed to threads where people were howling about how awful the moderation was, only to see that not a single person doing the howling had bothered to report the problem they saw.

        What do they think? That we read every post in every thread every day? Not feasible. Do they believe we're psychics, scanning the globe for mental emanations of discontent from unsatisfied buyers?

        When it's a relatively new member, it's understandable they don't know about the report function. But when it's a member of 3 or 5 or 7 years, it's just ridiculous.

        If there's a specific problem, don't rant. Don't rave. Report.

        That's your member moderation solution. When you use it, it works.


        Paul

        I like this method the best.

        The WSO rules were pointed out to me in a different thread about what can be posted and now going back and reading them, Rule #1 is pretty specific about it all:

        1. All WSOs Must Comply With Forum Rules, US Laws, and the Laws of Your Location. Keep in mind the forum cannot possibly review and evaluate WSOs. Legal compliance is strictly your responsibility. Do not ask me or a moderator if what you are offering is legal.

        The forum does not tolerate false claims. Treat your membership like gold as violating forum rules can result in a loss of WSO posting privileges.

        Your War Room membership gives you an opportunity to submit WSOs, but the forum solely decides what is allowed. From time to time the forum may not allow certain advertisements, products, or services, and this could affect the ability of existing offers to be bumped or even continued.

        Joe
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        • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
          Joe,
          The forum does not tolerate false claims. Treat your membership like gold as violating forum rules can result in a loss of WSO posting privileges.

          Your War Room membership gives you an opportunity to submit WSOs, but the forum solely decides what is allowed. From time to time the forum may not allow certain advertisements, products, or services, and this could affect the ability of existing offers to be bumped or even continued.
          This is the part that WSO sellers should be required to print out, sign, and fax to Allen before any offer is allowed to be posted.

          You would not believe the number of times in a month that we see sellers talking to other members like they owned the place, or mentioning how much money they spend with the forum. What they don't get is that the mods don't care how much they spend if they're breaking the rules. We're not supposed to care. And if they're not breaking the rules, it doesn't matter.

          Paying for a War Room membership gets you extra privileges and access. It doesn't make you any less subject to the rules. In fact, it adds rules you have to follow.

          Do they not "get" that the rules for WSO sellers wouldn't apply to them at all if they weren't War Room members? This isn't exactly rocket science, after all.

          Another reason for the outrageous claims is that some people have found they can make a lot of money here, with no other actual business activity at all, if they can be loud enough. As an example, there was a guy a while back who was selling a system he guaranteed would generate $WXYZ per month on auto-pilot. It got shut down for something unrelated to the claims, and he had the lack of wit to inform me that the WSO was his only source of income...

          Oh?

          First: Not my business. Don't break the rules and that doesn't become an issue.

          Second: Everyone associated with this place has said for years that you should NEVER depend solely on this forum, or any other single point of failure, for your income.

          Third: Why would he think that telling me he was lying in his offer would get it re-opened?

          Doh!

          Interestingly, he had a whopping great batch of positive reviews for the product from known members of the group. For all I know, the thing may have worked. But he wasn't doing it, and he was using income claims to get people to buy.

          That's another thing you should ignore. "Income proof," in the form of screen shots and even videos. They're far too easy to fake. Not only that, they're irrelevant even if they're 100% accurate. They have nothing to do with what results you might generate using the product.

          Reporting is the answer to scams. Feedback is the answer to crappy products.

          Some people love to shout about how awful the WSO section is, and claim that we delete all negative comments about products. Anyone who's willing to look through the last page of each WSO for the first hundred or so offers will never make that ridiculous claim again.

          Or just ask any of the Kool-Aid addicts who demand we let them moderate their own WSO threads...

          By the way... If you get a PM from a seller threatening to ban you... Let us know about it. Use the little red triangle at the top right corner of the PM screen to report it. That particular threat warrants an extra special sort of response.

          Note: Warning you that a certain behavior is against the rules and that the mods might ban you for it is a different thing. I'm talking here about sellers making threats to ban you directly, or to "have the mods ban you."

          If you're abusive to a seller and they speak to you in the same way, you're on your own. But if you speak to a seller politely and they start throwing vulgarities and threats at you, report them.

          Sellers: Same thing. You aren't allowed to start abusing the other members, but you're not required to take abuse from them, either. The report PM button works for you, too.

          While we're on that point, let's remember that there are some crazy sons of finches on the customer side of things. They expect everything for nothing, demand the seller give them stuff that wasn't promised in order to avoid being targeted by slander attacks, refund and pirate the products, and more. And they're the loudest screamers about how terrible the whole thing is.

          Greedy, destructive little narcissists who should be excised from the site like the disease-bearing rodents they are.

          If you think that's too strong a sentiment, it's only because you haven't seen these scumbag extortionists in action. If they did offline what they do online, they'd find themselves in jail in very little time at all. Or beaten bloody by an angry merchant.

          It cuts both ways, folks. That's why those reviews are so important. They not only warn the other members against bad offers, they protect the good sellers against the lying creeps.


          Paul
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          • Profile picture of the author Joe J
            Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post


            Joe,

            This is the part (Added: THE WSO RULES) that WSO sellers should be required to print out, sign, and fax to Allen before any offer is allowed to be posted......

            .....Reporting is the answer to scams. Feedback is the answer to crappy products.....

            ......Some people love to shout about how awful the WSO section is, and claim that we delete all negative comments about products. Anyone who's willing to look through the last page of each WSO for the first hundred or so offers will never make that ridiculous claim again.......



            Paul
            Thanks Paul, I couldn't agree with you more. If you don't mind, I thought if there was anything that people should read, considering how long this thread is, I highlighted some of the more important statements that you wrote.

            When all is said and done, those little report buttons and proper feedback replies on the product 'PURCHASED' and not just 'ASSUMPTIONS' about the product, could be the fastest and truest sign of what is actually being sold.

            Being able to ask the seller a question and getting a reply on it through the forum regarding his product, could either make his product sell or just be a total flop, when it is all out in the open.

            Joe

            Sorry, didn't realize how large I made this. Can't figure out how to make it a little smaller.
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          • Profile picture of the author sal64
            Interesting because this is something that may deter people from leaving honest comments. It happened to me a while back when I questioned a seller's reviews... which were more suspect than Pamela Anderson and Madonna being seen at a Virgin's Convention.

            Some sellers get very aggressive and defensive when you challenge the validity of their claims... or worse still, dare to ask fellow buyers if they have achieved any results so far.

            And they also get their fan club to chime in and attack the poster.



            Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post


            Greedy, destructive little narcissists who should be excised from the site like the disease-bearing rodents they are.

            If you think that's too strong a sentiment, it's only because you haven't seen these scumbag extortionists in action. If they did offline what they do online, they'd find themselves in jail in very little time at all. Or beaten bloody by an angry merchant.

            Ok, Paul... your problem is that you are way too shy. Why not tell us how you really feel?

            Pure gold!

            Love it!


            Paul
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            Internet Marketing: 20% Internet - 80% Marketing!
            You Won't See The Light Until You Open Your Eyes.
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            • Profile picture of the author JB
              Two simple enough things the warrior forum could do to help improve the WSO section without increasing moderation or workload etc.

              1) Not a lot you can do about purchases made through Clickbank etc but those sold through the Warrior system could easily enough be followed up a week later with an automated email reminding the purchaser to click on the original thread link to leave a product review.

              2) Also, that disclaimer about not breaking the various applicable laws and the no income claim statement (which should be included) could easily be attached as a footer to all WSO thread starting posts. It wouldn't affect the offer or pitch unless it didn't comply because people would be forced to consider this when they get to the end of the pitch.

              My $47.97
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  • Profile picture of the author sal64
    @Paul... yeah I know that... just saying. I've been on the silly pills this week with some obvious side effects.

    Ok here's a joke...

    Two idiots walk into a bar.

    The first idiot is selling a magic potion and makes outlandish, over-hyped promises.

    The second idiot buys it.

    Who's the bigger idiot?
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    • Profile picture of the author Chris1212
      Good point sal64...

      In this age of continuous advertising all around us (tv, newspaper, magazine, email/internet, text, radio, billboard and any where else they can think to slap an ad) you would THINK that people would become more savvy and even immune to dumb products and slick sales pitches... then you happen to click onto an infomercial and realize we're still in the "dark ages" where average consumer mentality stands.

      It's frightening... but also (obvously) profitable for some. Prime example... "Just one click will make you a zillioin dollars in 5 seconds" Buy NOW!

      Ugh!

      Chris
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      • Profile picture of the author Sue Bruce
        Self policing is good.

        Those on sites advising people to go their SA office site and FTC site to fill out a form do a great seo job keeping their sites listed high in the SERPs. However, they must not not be able to fill out said forms. Investigations are scarce.

        By the way "Methinks" is Olde English and is used by those who studied Shakespeare (Hamlet) in HS or college.
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        • Profile picture of the author sal64
          To hype or not to hype... that is the question.

          What offer through yonder forum breaks? 'Tis a WSO and the seller is full of cr@p... me thinks.

          Oh WSO, oh WSO... where for art thou WSO?

          Alas poor Yahoo... I knew him well.

          I'm done.

          Sal

          Originally Posted by Sue Bruce View Post

          Self policing is good.

          Those on sites advising people to go their SA office site and FTC site to fill out a form do a great seo job keeping their sites listed high in the SERPs. However, they must not not be able to fill out said forms. Investigations are scarce.

          By the way "Methinks" is Olde English and is used by those who studied Shakespeare (Hamlet) in HS or college.
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    • Profile picture of the author Lena
      Absolutely love it sal64. Great point
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      • Profile picture of the author Techono
        I prefer my "easy terms" plan. 100% down, nothing else to pay.

        2 peanuts were walking down the road, one was assaulted......

        Not as good as Sal64's post. (#48)
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  • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
    Originally Posted by JB Jiles View Post

    why are such headlines allowed?
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    "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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  • Profile picture of the author J Bold
    Originally Posted by JB Jiles View Post

    I took a short look in the WSO section of this forum, which I have not visited before and was astounded by the headlines of these products. I found one that offered to get my website to page one of Google for a very reasonable fixed fee. I find that all seriously hard to believe, especially if my site is in a monstrously competitive niche with ultra competitive keywords. Didn't read the fine print of the offer, but I'm sure it must be extensive. But I guess that is just sales.

    So, if for $500 or so, I could find a service that promises to get sites to page one of Google every single time for any chosen keyword, why wouldn't everyone sign up with such a guarantee? The thing is, such a thing is not possible, and any reasonable person is going to know this, so why are such headlines allowed? That's my question.
    Just note I've basically skimmed/read the whole thread.

    But, back to your first post, I find it funny that the WSO that prompted your complaint may very well be one that truly can guarantee page one on Google, and for a very reasonable price. If it's not that one, ok it may be too far and maybe can't deliver. But for that one WSO it's definitely not too far, not at all. It truly delivers.

    So, I have no problem somebody guaranteeing something that they can deliver. I don't care how outlandish it looks to you. If they can deliver it, why can't they guarantee it?

    Let's look at it from the point of view of a guarantee that delivers time and time again, rather than one that can't.

    Irregardless if it's something technically out of their control (i.e. nobody controls Google but Google), if they have delivered time and again on their guarantee then wondering how they can guarantee something that they've proven time and time again they can deliver because it seems out of their control or outlandish to you seems to me to be complaining for complaining's sake.

    So, yeah, nobody can guarantee how much money you'll make, nobody can guarantee this and that; but what if they truly can?

    If somebody had a crazy guarantee, and didn't deliver, and would definitely prove time and time again that if they couldn't deliver you would either get your money back or some other way of backing up the guarantee beyond results, what's wrong with that?

    And I'm not talking about those dishonest would just take your money and run, etc.

    Unless you have a specific complaint about something, we're all just talking in generalities and it gives people opportunities to get up on their soap boxes and it gives those who want to complain about WSOs yet another thread in which to do so.

    Great.

    In any case, any reasonable person would realize that if somebody can live up to their guarantee 99% of the time and have loads of social proof to back it up and real results to back it up, and the 1% of the time they can't there is some recourse of action for the customer, what's wrong with guaranteeing?
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  • Profile picture of the author JWBlack
    Maybe they should make the report button bigger so everyone can see it reeeeeaaaall good........just sayin
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  • Profile picture of the author Rod Cortez
    First: Not my business. Don't break the rules and that doesn't become an issue.

    Second: Everyone associated with this place has said for years that you should NEVER depend solely on this forum, or any other single point of failure, for your income.
    Paul,

    These two summed it up perfectly. I've seen a lot of WSO sellers come and go over the years. The smart ones use it as a testing ground and as a spring board to build momentum.

    I'm also trying to picture what a "son of a finch" looks like (first time I've ever read that term, I'm going to borrow it).

    RoD
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  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
    Rod,
    I'm also trying to picture what a "son of a finch" looks like
    Small, fluffy creatures with bad attitudes. They may learn to fly some day, but for now all they can do is scream for Mom to feed them.

    Metaphorically speaking, that is...


    Paul
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  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
    Sal,
    Some sellers get very aggressive and defensive when you challenge the validity of their claims... or worse still, dare to ask fellow buyers if they have achieved any results so far.

    And they also get their fan club to chime in and attack the poster.
    If you ask politely and they still do that, who looks bad? You or the seller?

    As far as asking the buyers if they've gotten any results yet... Do you really think most buyers go back to a thread after they've ordered if they're happy with the purchase? Some will, sure. But most won't. They're too busy to haunt a salesletter to make sure no-one is beating up on their favorite merchant.
    Ok, Paul... your problem is that you are way too shy. Why not tell us how you really feel?
    Yeah. I get that a lot...


    Paul
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  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
    JB,
    those sold through the Warrior system could easily enough be followed up a week later with an automated email reminding the purchaser to click on the original thread link to leave a product review.
    That one would be up to Mike Lantz. WSO Pro isn't connected with the Warrior Forum, except as a third party service. Completely different entities and owners.

    Adding a footer to each offer post that says "Don't break the law" might not be all that useful.


    Paul
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    • Profile picture of the author JB
      Hi Paul,
      Issue there with the Warrior + owner so but it might be in his long term interest to provide such a followup. It could also help promote the W+ as a method of delivery for those unfamiliar with it.
      Re the disclaimer/legal footer, I still think this would help to reduce the amount of ridiculous claims and would probably lead to more posts being reported. Total newbies are more likely to be taken in by unscrupulous copy and it's not really enough to simply say caveat emptor. At the very least having some kind of visible notice would fulfill some element of duty of care over users. Anyway, just my thought, thanks for replying.
      Dave
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  • Profile picture of the author Burton Lancaster
    I think it is important to buy responsibly. Generally speaking most of the time marketers are posting the best outcome to date. Not the average results. It's possible some will exceed the claim, but in reality some won't even try. Results are directly tied to rapid action in anything you do.

    In cases where you are depending on someone else's services without your input things could get tricky.

    Only buy products with money back guarantees and be sure to publicly post your review in the sales thread (good or bad) to help others with their decision.
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  • Profile picture of the author Jason Z
    I tend to believe that even if people had to sign an agreement before posting something as a WSO, it wouldn't change the quality one bit.

    I fall under the belief that the only things that will make any difference are reviews and reporting.

    If someone is getting terrible reviews because the product doesn't deliver as promised, then that deters others from buying and it also gives the seller a bad reputation which will hopefully make others wary of that seller in the future.

    There are things that we can do to help keep it cleaned up. Like Paul said, there are tons of people who complain and complain about things in other threads but don't do anything when they see a problem. It's like seeing someone getting mugged in the street and being appalled by it and going home and complaining to your spouse about crime in the city. Yeah, that's nice that you don't like crime but you should have tried to stop the mugging or called the police.

    It doesn't matter if it's on WF or an infomercial on TV or a guy at the flea market or whatever, there will always be sellers who are looking to make a buck at any cost.

    But buyers need to take responsibility for doing their due diligence before purchasing and following up after a purchase and being public about sellers who are taking advantage of people.
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  • Profile picture of the author sal64
    To be honest, if people took the time to do some research, then they would avoid so much angst.

    Sure, there are 2 sides... the sellers say let the buyers beware and the buyers say stop selling sh1t sandwiches dressed up as gourmet food.

    But in the REAL world, it's never going to happen that way.

    Recently on another thread, there was a man of straw making the most outlandish claim for his WSO. After 10 minutes of research, a few of us pretty much got to the bottom of his claims and I'd say we exposed him.

    So here's what I do - in the vain hope that someone actually reads this and takes note - before I buy.

    Firstly, if I am buying content, then I simply check out previous work.

    Otherwise...

    I hit the search function.

    I type in their username.

    I search for all threads started by them.

    This way I can tell what sort of contribution they make around here. If all their posts are in the WSO, then that's a red flag for me.

    Then I check their claims and google them to see what they are about.

    Finally, it sounds too good to be true, then I'll sit back and wait for feedback.

    As far as reviews go...

    Well, I guess I don't read them any more. They tend to be - in my opinion only - either reviews based on the old I'll give you a sample, you write a review... or mainly posted by wide-eyed posters who haven't been around. So pretty much anything new is bound to be awesome by their standards.

    IF results are shown, then that's aplus.

    IF results are shown by senior members... that's a double plus.

    IF the seller is endorsed by a senior member, then that's definitely a trust.

    However... if a product is endorsed via an email from another seller that you've purchased from, then that's a delete.

    Sal
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  • Profile picture of the author thekaver
    I have seen alot of rubbish claims in wso's that have not delivered!

    but same time alot of the claims have been!

    i think you just got to be careful
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  • Profile picture of the author WiFi
    I have purchased a few WSOs in the past, a few were okay with pumped up claims, and one was outstanding. I find waiting for the reviews helps.
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    WiFi
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  • Profile picture of the author nicheblogger75
    In Internet Marketing, you are always going to have products with unbelievable claims. But as far as wSO's go, I'd say 80% off them are good products with valid information. Of all the affiliate products I promote, WSO's are themost reasonable priced and have the fewest refund requests. I think the WF does a great job in screening and putting up WSO's.
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  • Profile picture of the author WarriorPlus
    Banned
    Keep in mind guys, WarriorPlus is a completely separate entity than the Warrior Forums, nor do we have any direct control of any of the WSOs sold. The only thing we do is provide an interface between the two. We really can't police the forums for reviews, or how good (or not so good) the WSOs are. There are things that we can help with, by all means open a ticket at WarriorPlus Support if you feel you need support and we will do the best we can to help you out.
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